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iWill
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Everyone is comparing Serena and Justine and trying to decide who is greater but I wanted to know who people thought was greater between Venus and Justine because they both have really achieved alot of the same things. Justine has won 3 of the slams and Venus only two but Venus has been in the finals of all 4 just like Justine and Venus has a lot more doubles titles then Henin so I'm just curious............

Venus Williams
SINGLES
Winner: (44): 2012- Luxembourg 2010 - Dubai, Acapulco; 2009 - Dubai, Acapulco; 2008 - Wimbledon, Zürich, WTA Championships; 2007 - Memphis, Wimbledon, Seoul; 2005 - Istanbul, Wimbledon; 2004 - Charleston, Warsaw; 2003 - Antwerp; 2002 - Gold Coast, Paris [Indoors], Antwerp, Amelia Island, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven; 2001 - Miami, Hamburg, Wimbledon, San Diego, New Haven, US Open; 2000 - Wimbledon, Stanford, San Diego, New Haven, US Open, Olympics; 1999 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Hamburg, Rome, New Haven, Zürich; 1998 - Oklahoma City, Miami, Grand Slam Cup.
Finalist (27): 2010 - Miami, Madrid; 2009 - Wimbledon, Stanford, WTA Championships; 2007 - Tokyo [Japan Open]; 2005 - Antwerp, Stanford; 2004 - Berlin, Stanford; 2003 - Australian Open, Warsaw, Wimbledon; 2002 - Hamburg, Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open; 2000 - Linz; 1999 - Hannover, Stanford, San Diego, Grand Slam Cup; 1998 - Sydney, Rome, Stanford, Zürich; 1997 - US Open.

*11 weeks at #1 Plus 11 GS doubles titles and 2 Mixed GS titles

Justine Henin
Winner (43): 2010 - Stuttgart, 's-Hertogenbosch; 2008 - Sydney, Antwerp; 2007 - Dubai, Doha, Warsaw, Roland Garros, Eastbourne, Toronto, US Open, Stuttgart, Zürich, WTA Championships; 2006 - Sydney, Dubai, Roland Garros, Eastbourne, New Haven, WTA Championships; 2005 - Charleston, Warsaw, Berlin, Roland Garros; 2004 - Australian Open, Sydney, Dubai, Indian Wells, Olympics; 2003 - Roland Garros, Dubai, Charleston, Berlin, San Diego, Toronto, US Open, Zürich; 2002 - Berlin, Linz; 2001 - Gold Coast, Canberra, 's-Hertogenbosch; 2000 - ITF/Ličge-BEL; 1999 - Antwerp, ITF/Reims-FRA; 1998 - ITF/Gelos-FRA, ITF/Grenelefe-USA, ITF/Ramat Hasharon-ISR; 1997 - ITF/Le Touquet-FRA, ITF/Koksijde-BEL.
Finalist (18): 2010 - Brisbane, Australian Open; 2007 - Miami; 2006 - Australian Open, Berlin, Wimbledon, US Open; 2005 - Toronto; 2003 - 's-Hertogenbosch, Leipzig, Filderstadt; 2002 - Gold Coast, Antwerp, Amelia Island, Rome; 2001 - Wimbledon, Hawaii, Filderstadt.

*117 weeks at #1 Plus 2 WTA Tour doubles titles

H2H Venus leads 7-2

V-MAC
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:09 PM
We'll wait and see in around 5 years time.

tennisIlove09
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:15 PM
Pretty even.

Right now, slight edge to Venus just because she has the doubles. All the Slams at least once, and Olympic gold.

thrust
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:19 PM
Close, but a slight edge to Venus. Justine is younger though and has a chance to surpass Venus in GS and other victories. Venus has a 7-1 H-H over Justine but Justine,being more than 2 years younger, had not reached her peak for most of those encounters.

liuxuan
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Venus all the way, she had such periods of domiation in 2000 and 2001 that Justine has never experienced

tennisjunky
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:21 PM
Pros for venus:
3 wimbledons
good h2h record against top players including justine
olmpic gold medal
5 slams and more slams in doubles and mixed
more career titles


Pros for Justine:
3 french’s
longer stay at number one
slams wins on 3 surfaces, venus only has two surfaces
ended her year at number one twice, venus never has
she’s one the year-end championships, venus hasn’t


questions:
who’s been a part of the top ten for the most years, how about top 5?
who has the better career win loss record?
who has the better grand slam record?

Billabong
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:22 PM
I can't wait till their next meeting:yeah:

Jodie
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:23 PM
Tennisjunky and TennisIlove09, Justine also have Olympic Gold..

cellophane
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Justine actually has more Tier Is than Venus though. 8 to 6. But, yeah, this discussion is old.

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Both equally great. They are pretty even in almost all categories.

Titles
Venus- 34
Justine 31

Grand Slams
Venus- 5
Justine 5
Difference is that Justine won 3 of the 4 possible GS and Venus winning only Wimbledon and US Open.

Olympic Medals
Venus- 2000 Singles & Doubles (Sydney)
Justine- 2004 Singles (Athens)

Year-End #1
Venus- 0
Justine- 2

It is definitely scary on how similar their careers are :unsure: Definitely equal right now and maybe in a couple of years time we can base who is better.

Can't wait till their next meeting! :hearts:

Jodie
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Karat, Justine have 5 slams, like Venus..

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:33 PM
Karat, Justine have 5 slams, like Venus..

Yeah, sorry. I forgot to include RG 2006 :wavey:

Mightymirza
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:33 PM
Well if you only compare singles, both careers are quite similar with the slight edge to Justine for sure..I mean come on..She has a YEC and 2 year end #1 rankings more than Vee

tennisIlove09
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Well if you only compare singles, both careers are quite similar with the slight edge to Justine for sure..I mean come on..She has a YEC and 2 year end #1 rankings more than Vee

But Venus has more career titles; and she leads H2H ... so singles wise, it's even.

Conor
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:37 PM
If Justine can win Wimbledon then things will swing in her favour I think....

all_slam_andre
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:37 PM
Justine has the slight edge over Venus for me.
The most important criterion for greatness is the number of grand slam titles won. They have both won 5 grand slam titles. So therefore we must look at look other factors.
For me, a player's ranking history is important. Justine has 59 weeks at number 1 (and counting), compared to 11 weeks for Venus. Justine also ended two years as world number 1 (2003 and 2006) while Venus has failed to do this. There Justine is clearly ahead in the rankings department.
The two biggest tournaments in tennis after the grand slams are the YEC and the olympics. Both players have won the olympic gold medal, but Justine has won the YEC while Venus's hasn't.
Doubles achievements don't count in my opinion. I view doubles tennis as an irrelevant sideshow in a primarily individual sport.

tennisIlove09
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:41 PM
If doubles is irrelevant, Pam Shriver would not be in the HOF today. So it has to count for something.

Justine has won the YEC once. The next biggest title after that is Miami; Venus has 3 of those titles. Justine zero.

Right now, in terms of singles play, they have to be equal. While Venus never ended the year #1, everyone knows she was the best player in 2000 and 2001.

Conor
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:43 PM
Justine has the slight edge over Venus for me.
The most important criterion for greatness is the number of grand slam titles won. They have both won 5 grand slam titles. So therefore we must look at look other factors.
For me, a player's ranking history is important. Justine has 59 weeks at number 1 (and counting), compared to 11 weeks for Venus. Justine also ended two years as world number 1 (2003 and 2006) while Venus has failed to do this. There Justine is clearly ahead in the rankings department.
The two biggest tournaments in tennis after the grand slams are the YEC and the olympics. Both players have won the olympic gold medal, but Justine has won the YEC while Venus's hasn't.
Doubles achievements don't count in my opinion. I view doubles tennis as an irrelevant sideshow in a primarily individual sport.

Thats one way of looking at it! They are so close you could argue either way. And yeah I dont really take into account doubles either, I mean its good to have won doubles titles but it doesnt have any great significance (IMO).

*Nice first post btw ;)

Kunal
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:44 PM
i'd say both

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:47 PM
If doubles is irrelevant, Pam Shriver would not be in the HOF today. So it has to count for something.

Justine has won the YEC once. The next biggest title after that is Miami; Venus has 3 of those titles. Justine zero.

Right now, in terms of singles play, they have to be equal. While Venus never ended the year #1, everyone knows she was the best player in 2000 and 2001.

:worship:

Doubles does count. Perfect example right there.

all_slam_andre
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:48 PM
Also in Justine's favour is the fact that she has won 3 out of the 4 grand slams while Venus has won 2 out of the 4. Justine's record at her missing link, Wimbledon, is slightly better than Venus's at the Australian and French Opens.
It's all very close though. Both of them are amazing players.

Wannabeknowitall
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:52 PM
Venus for now.
That could change at the French though.

rjd1111
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:56 PM
Tennisjunky and TennisIlove09, Justine also have Olympic Gold..

Venus has 2

rjd1111
Apr 4th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Both equally great. They are pretty even in almost all categories.

Titles
Venus- 34
Justine 31

Grand Slams
Venus- 5
Justine 5
Difference is that Justine won 3 of the 4 possible GS and Venus winning only Wimbledon and US Open.

Olympic Medals
Venus- 2000 Singles & Doubles (Sydney)
Justine- 2004 Singles (Athens)

Year-End #1
Venus- 0
Justine- 2

It is definitely scary on how similar their careers are :unsure: Definitely equal right now and maybe in a couple of years time we can base who is better.

Can't wait till their next meeting! :hearts:

You forgot 7-1

fufuqifuqishahah
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:00 PM
wouldnt it be interesting if venus won french this year and jhh won wimbledon

all_slam_andre
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:01 PM
*Nice first post btw ;)

Thanks for your kind words :)

marlon
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:04 PM
justine can pass my girl if she win wimb

trufanjay
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:06 PM
I think they are actually even with maybe a slight edge to Venus.

Singles Grand Slams - Even
# of Titles - Venus
Weeks at #1 - Justine
Olympic Medals - Venus
Diversity of Grand Slams Won - Justine
# of Doubles Titles - Venus
Total Grand Slams - Venus

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:06 PM
Venus has 2

OG, since when double becomes so important :confused: :lol: :lol:

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:08 PM
You forgot 7-1

venus is leading monica 9:1 :)
That's not enough to make her a better player. :)

marlon
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:09 PM
why do you guys bring up number 1 rank shit you know that don't mean shit in wta

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:11 PM
Both equally great. They are pretty even in almost all categories.

Titles
Venus- 34
Justine 31

Grand Slams
Venus- 5
Justine 5
Difference is that Justine won 3 of the 4 possible GS and Venus winning only Wimbledon and US Open.

Olympic Medals
Venus- 2000 Singles & Doubles (Sydney)
Justine- 2004 Singles (Athens)

Year-End #1
Venus- 0
Justine- 2

It is definitely scary on how similar their careers are :unsure: Definitely equal right now and maybe in a couple of years time we can base who is better.

Can't wait till their next meeting! :hearts:

You forgot justine's YEC which is second important right after GS.

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:12 PM
You forgot justine's YEC which is second important right after GS.

Yeah, I forgot that. But the next biggest tournament after that is Miami.

Venus won it 3 times to Justine's 0. (almost 1 :p)

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:12 PM
why do you guys bring up number 1 rank shit you know that don't mean shit in wta

I bet u wouldn't say that if we exchange their total weeks as being No.1:devil:

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Yeah, I forgot that. But the next biggest tournament after that is Miami.

Venus won it 3 times to Justine's 0. (almost 1 :p)

There is a big gap between YEC and Miami, sorry.

And if u bring that on, I would say justine has more Tier I titles than venus. This could be endless.

cellophane
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Doubles counts as an achievement obviously, but when you are comparing who is the better player, it's the singles that's important. Many top players don't even play doubles. If you want to include doubles, then talk about who is the better doubles player. Including singles and doubles together makes no sense.

Also, who says Miami is the 3rd most important title?

trufanjay
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:14 PM
I think they are just equal right now. The first one to win their sixth slam will be greater than the other.

Tennisaddict
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:15 PM
Right now they´re even for me. It will be very interesting to see how Venus and Justine will do at the slams this year. They both have a good opportunity to surpass each other.

Thread starter, why didn´t you throw Hingis in the mix as that would be relevant also unlike the thread about Serena and Hingis :p

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:16 PM
There is a big gap between YEC and Miami, sorry.

And if u bring that on, I would say justine has more Tier I titles than venus. This could be endless.

Well, it doesn't really matter to me. I love them both :p

But I say that they are equal for now. Very close in all categories.

trufanjay
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:16 PM
Doubles counts as an achievement obviously, but when you are comparing who is the better player, it's the singles that's important. Many top players don't even play doubles. If you want to include doubles, then talk about who is the better doubles player. Including singles and doubles together makes no sense.

Also, who says Miami is the 3rd most important title?
Miami isn't the third most important title when you put it like that. The most important type of title would be a grand slam and then the second most important would be the YEC and then Miami being the biggest Tier I of them all would be third best type of title to win.

.Andrew.
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Miami isn't third most important title when you put it like that. The most important typr of title would be a grand slam and then the second most imporrtant would be the YEC and then Miami being the biggest Tier I of them all would be third best.

That's what I meant.

thrust
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:18 PM
Doubles become important when your singles record isn^t winning the discussion.

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:18 PM
I think they are just equal right now. The first one to win their sixth slam will be greater than the other.


Obviously

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Doubles become important when your singles record isn^t winning the discussion.


:lol:

marlon
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:21 PM
man venus never care about no.1 rank in her prime years from 2000 to 2001 she was not the no.1 rank player in world on paper but everybody know who was real best player.so like i said earlier justine will pass my girl if she win wimb

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:23 PM
man venus never care about no.1 rank in her prime years from 2000 to 2001 she was not the no.1 rank player in world on paper but everybody know who was real best player.so like i said earlier justine will pass my girl if she win wimb

Yeah u r right..
Btw, if justine really wins Wimbly one day, this topic doesn't even need to be discussed :)

cellophane
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Yeah, I forgot that. But the next biggest tournament after that is Miami.

Venus won it 3 times to Justine's 0. (almost 1 :p)

Miami only became mandatory last year though, right? :hehehe: :lol: :p So it didn't really count as the biggest tournament after YEC and the Slams before '06. ;)

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:29 PM
Miami only became mandatory last year though, right? :hehehe: :lol: :p



cellophane i don't understand u but i really like u :bounce: :D ...
Obviouly u don't like justine, but u always say something for her.. which is weird :lol:
Or maybe u didn't mean to do that coz maybe justine was just the one u hate less :tape: :lol:

AcesHigh
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:30 PM
The YEC and #1 ranking don't come into play when Venus hardly even played YEC or never really cared about #1 ranking.

Same with doubles.. Justine didn't play much doubles, if i remember right, and she didnt' have Serena Williams as her partner.

Il Primo!
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Venus is superior IMO. Henin never dominated a competitive tour like Venus did from 2000 to 2001.

marlon
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:32 PM
no boubt david but i don't think she be the better player as talent wise remember venus haves a 7-1 head to head record against her so just because justine might pass her when it comes result don't make her better player

Vacant
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Pretty equal as far as I'm concerned. Both have a couple of things over each other, but in the end it balances out.

cellophane
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:35 PM
cellophane i don't understand u but i really like u :bounce: :D ...
Obviouly u don't like justine, but u always say something for her.. which is weird :lol:

I meant that Miami wasn't the most important tournament after YEC and the Slams when Venus won it. ;) You could argue forever though.

I think they are quite even honestly. Justine does have the number 1 ranking longer, although it doesn't mean *too* much these days.

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:36 PM
no boubt david but i don't think she be the better player as talent wise remember venus haves a 7-1 head to head record against her so just because justine might pass her when it comes result don't make her better player

Again I have to bring on this record against monica, 9:1.. this one is even more impressive
But i just don't see how venus is a better player than monica :)

winone23
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:37 PM
I think that Justine and Venus are pretty close, but Venus is greater in my opinion and I'm not just saying that b/c I'm a fan. Venus gets the edge for me because if you look at the period when Venus won her slams and was making slam finals she was beating the best of the best. Also in regards to the number one ranking Venus was the best in the world in 00-01 and parts of, but she didn't get the number ranking b/c she didn't play full seasons during that time period, but she was still the best despite what the paper said. In my opinion Justine greatly benefited from the two best players in the world suffering serious injuries at the same time. Justine didn't overtake the top players in the world like Venus did.

Volcana
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:39 PM
Venus has had more accomplishments in her career.

Until they play again, or Venus beats up the rest of the top sixteen, I'm going to say Henin is a bit ahead right now.

(Dubai + Doha) > Memphis

marlon
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:39 PM
its all about match ups david

tennisIlove09
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:41 PM
Miami has always been called the 5th Grand Slam. That isnt a new thing.

I am fighting both sides, because they are equal, imo.

so ... Justine didnt dominate? She held 3 of the 4 majors from French 03 - OZ 04. That's something Venus never did.

TaxPower
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:42 PM
Justine!

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:44 PM
its all about match ups david

I understand and I just don't agree . :lol:

all_slam_andre
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:46 PM
Miami only became mandatory last year though, right? :hehehe: :lol: :p So it didn't really count as the biggest tournament after YEC and the Slams before '06. ;)

Exactly. Since 2006, Miami has been the 6th biggest tournament in women's tennis, but on the 3 occasions that Venus won the tournament, it certainly wasn't bigger than any of the other Tier I events. Therefore the number of Tier I titles won is a far more relevant comparison than the number of Miami titles won.

AcesHigh
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:47 PM
Justine also benefited from the absence of Serena and Venus when she won USO and AO. So... i don't know. I think it's even. Would Justine have won USO if Serena or VEnus were there?? I doubt it but who knows. The way she was absolutely trounced at AO and Wimby 2003 tells me she got a little lucky. But that's part of life.

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Justine also benefited from the absence of Serena and Venus when she won USO and AO. So... i don't know. I think it's even. Would Justine have won USO if Serena or VEnus were there?? I doubt it but who knows. The way she was absolutely trounced at AO and Wimby 2003 tells me she got a little lucky. But that's part of life.


Gosh indeed she did need that luck...
She even wants some more lucks, like being as strong as Serena, as tall as venus, and so on...
She just didn't get that.... Would you also call this kind of luck? :)
Justine lost the match even since she was born... The comparison has never been fair.

AcesHigh
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:55 PM
Gosh indeed she did need that luck...
She even wants some more lucks, like being as strong as Serena, as tall as venus, and so on...
She just didn't get that.... Would you also call this kind of luck? :)
Justine lost the match even since she was born... The comparison has never been fair.

What are you talking about???

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 10:57 PM
Concerning what u have pointed out, I'm just trying to give some examples that justine hasn't been that "lucky" as it might appear to some ppl. That's all.

AcesHigh
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:04 PM
Concerning what u have pointed out, I'm just trying to give some examples that justine hasn't been that "lucky" as it might appear to some ppl. That's all.

Neither were the WS and what they had to go through to get to where they are. What is your point??

We're talking about tennis and their careers. And Justine benefited from the absence of the 2 best players in tennis.

I still see them as even, but I'm just mentioning an important point.

starin
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:07 PM
well I think as of right now its def. Venus. Same # of slams but Venus has more doubles slams. It's the same reason I would put Hingis above Venus and Henin. But if we're talking about just as of this moment than Henin>Venus. They're too close. Have to wait and see when they retire.

DavidEllul
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Neither were the WS and what they had to go through to get to where they are. What is your point??

We're talking about tennis and their careers. And Justine benefited from the absence of the 2 best players in tennis.

I still see them as even, but I'm just mentioning an important point.

Yeah, I can also say that my point is important as well since "tennis and their careers" are not independent and I just want to consider other factors which make sense to me, too. :p

Whatever, this debate won't stop until one of them clearly surpasses the other concerning GS Numbers.

sucka_4_serena
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:10 PM
As much as it pains me to admit as a MASSIVE williams fan...both pretty even. altho i do feel Venus has the potential to be the greater of the two. Were it not for her younger sibling we wouldnt be criticising Venus for only having Slams on 2 surfaces, she'd have won on all 4!

Venus is looking in great shape just now along with Serena and Justine so i thnk the next few years may see some great competition from these 3 girls as each tries to make a statement about just how good they realy are!

selyoink
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:16 PM
Wait till their careers are over. I expect Justine to win multiple more slams while I don't think Venus will win anymore. But at the moment they are very even.

lauro78
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:18 PM
to aces high,

please be rational.

it's not justine's fault that serena and venus were absent.

facts

roland garros 2003 - venus lost 4th
roland garros 2005 - venus lost to sesil i cant rem. which round
roland garros 2006 - venus lost qf
aussie 2004 - venus lost 3rd or 4th (cant rember but never reached the qf)
usopen 2003 - both sisters were absent but justine is healthy - so would she not be competing also because the sisters were not there?

cmon, i know that the sisters are the best in this generation, but dont take justines accomplishments away in behalf of the sisters early loss and absences.

Denise4925
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Venus, for all the reasons everyone else said Venus. I don't want to be repetitive. ;)

AcesHigh
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:42 PM
to aces high,

please be rational.

it's not justine's fault that serena and venus were absent.

facts

roland garros 2003 - venus lost 4th
roland garros 2005 - venus lost to sesil i cant rem. which round
roland garros 2006 - venus lost qf
aussie 2004 - venus lost 3rd or 4th (cant rember but never reached the qf)
usopen 2003 - both sisters were absent but justine is healthy - so would she not be competing also because the sisters were not there?

cmon, i know that the sisters are the best in this generation, but dont take justines accomplishments away in behalf of the sisters early loss and absences.



Did I take away her accomplishments? I said she still might have won. But the way Venus and Serena were playing.. Justine would most likely not have taken USO 03 or AO 04. Venus played AO 04, but def. was not the same.

It's similar to the Monica-Steffi discussion. Would Steffi regain her form and have won the slams she did post-stabbing? No one knows and "what if's" are pointless, but it's worth bringing up. It's also very interesting b/c Justine's only period of "dominance" coincided with the injuries of the WS.

Like I said.. I think they're even.

tennisjunky
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:55 PM
why do you guys bring up number 1 rank shit you know that don't mean shit in wta

what a stupid thing to say. might not be the most important thing, but it's meaningful. why do you think serena keeps putting her finger in the air. to say that you are the best at what you do is special. doesnt matter how flawed the ranking are, it's still special. love when my favorites are number one, make me happy and it makes them happy. it's rare for a player to get to the very top too. more people have won a slam than been ranked number one.

Volcana
Apr 4th, 2007, 11:58 PM
Odd fact:

5 slams (3 OZ) - Hingis
5 slams (3 RG) - Henin
5 slams (3 WB) - Venus

When the sportswriters write about this period, they'll write about injuries, and three great players who weren't as good as Serena. Strictly in terms of singles, they're isn't that much to choose between them. But the book isn't written yet.

V's a star
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Close. But Venus changed tennis somthin JHH has not done

Viktymise
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Venus is the better player, End of.

cellophane
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Close. But Venus changed tennis somthin JHH has not done

JH showed that little players can still compete. ;)

new-york
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:05 AM
Close. But Venus changed tennis somthin JHH has not done

JH showed that little players can still compete. ;)

are those wtatour titles?:p

cellophane
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:06 AM
are those wtatour titles?:p

No. ;)

Nicolás89
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:08 AM
well venus has won 1 slam in 4 years juju has won all her slams in 4 years plus the olimpics so who is the better player "right now"?, juju

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:08 AM
JH showed that little players can still compete. ;)

No. ;)



*DEAD*:lol: :lol:

Nicolás89
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:09 AM
venus years are passed her way let alone that wimby title, but i think she is done till she prove the opposite (in the slams)

cellophane
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:09 AM
*DEAD*

I should've said "little players can win big" . ;)

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:13 AM
If we're talking about who the better player is.. it's VEnus hands down.

Who had the bigger impact on the game? Venus hands down

Better career? It's even.

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I should've said "little players can win big" . ;)


I'm sure later we'll be so off topic here :devil:

This poll is more than dumb :help:

Nicolás89
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:28 AM
Venus is superior IMO. Henin never dominated a competitive tour like Venus did from 2000 to 2001.

do you remember 2003 and 2004? ;) she won more titles than venus did in 2000 and 2001, but she won one slam more :wavey:

vwfan
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:44 AM
Again I have to bring on this record against monica, 9:1.. this one is even more impressive
But i just don't see how venus is a better player than monica :)

well, Venus was a better player than Monica when they overlapped as players as evidenced by the h2h.:rolleyes: if you don't see that you're in denial. :help:

Monica, however, is no doubt a more accomplished player. but Venus owned her and the one loss was when Venus injured her ankle. and Monica was my fav, before Venus.

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:49 AM
do you remember 2003 and 2004? ;) she won more titles than venus did in 2000 and 2001, but she won one slam more :wavey:

Do you remember? She was not hte best player in 2003 or 2004. Best player in 2003 was Serena Williams.

Best player in 2004.. probably Sharapova.

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:52 AM
well, Venus was a better player than Monica when they overlapped as players as evidenced by the h2h.:rolleyes: if you don't see that you're in denial. :help:

Monica, however, is no doubt a more accomplished player. but Venus owned her and the one loss was when Venus injured her ankle. and Monica was my fav, before Venus.


So could I also say that venus was a better player than justine only until 2003 AO, the last time when they met? :)

Nicolás89
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:53 AM
Do you remember? She was not hte best player in 2003 or 2004. Best player in 2003 was Serena Williams.

Best player in 2004.. probably Sharapova.

i thought we were talking about venus and justine :scratch:

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:56 AM
i thought we were talking about venus and justine :scratch:

Justine never dominated like Venus did was the original point.

You pointed to 2003 and 2004, yet Justine was not the best player in either year.

In 2000 and 2001, Venus was clearly the best player on tour.

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Do you remember? She was not hte best player in 2003 or 2004. Best player in 2003 was Serena Williams.

Best player in 2004.. probably Sharapova.

So how do u define "best player of the year" anyway? Shouldn't Year-ending No.1 the most important criterion :confused:
Or maybe u have ur own judging system which is actually better than WTA:confused: :tape: :eek: :lol:

SoClose
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:58 AM
Venus

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:00 AM
Justine never dominated like Venus did was the original point.

You pointed to 2003 and 2004, yet Justine was not the best player in either year.

In 2000 and 2001, Venus was clearly the best player on tour.

I'm sure I could find even more ppl holding the point that Jen was the best in 2001:)

RJWCapriati
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:01 AM
They are equal - but I judged it from their H2H - with Venus dominating that part.

RJWCapriati
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:02 AM
I'm sure I could find even more ppl holding the point that Jen was the best in 2001:)

I'll 2nd that

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:08 AM
Sigh... Jen best in 2001??

Venus was 46-5 winning 6 titles out of 12 events

What about the 3-0 record Venus had over Jen in 2001??

What about Venus wining the most prestigious GS?

Jen won only 3 titles that year and had a 56-14 record. 9 more losses. Not to mention she played 17 events.

Venus clearly the best player in 2001

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:18 AM
Oh I guess they must have been pretty damn blind giving Laureus to Jen rather than venus after that year :p

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:23 AM
Oh I guess they must have been pretty damn blind giving Laureus to Jen rather than venus after that year :p

Definitely :) I showed you the stats. People just got caught up in the Jen comeback story. I love JCap to death, but she did not deserve that award over Venus.

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:31 AM
Anyway, ok :wavey:

cellophane
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:32 AM
I think Jen won more second-serve points in Tier II first-round matches than Venus did in 2001.

Oh, sorry. Off-topic.

DavidEllul
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:35 AM
I think Jen won more second-serve points in Tier II first-round matches than Venus did in 2001.

Oh, sorry. Off-topic.

ah, that might have been the decisive factor as for who was the best of that year :drool:http://ads.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/smilies/rolls.gif

winone23
Apr 5th, 2007, 02:19 AM
So how do u define "best player of the year" anyway? Shouldn't Year-ending No.1 the most important criterion :confused:
Or maybe u have ur own judging system which is actually better than WTA:confused: :tape: :eek: :lol:

Nope, Perfect example Jen ended 2001 as the number 1 player, but Venus had the better winning record and more titles. Jen was 56-14 and Venus was 46-5. Venus won 6 titles and Jen won 3. Venus also defeated Jen 3 times that year, but according to the computer Jen was the better player that year, when in reality she wasn't.

winone23
Apr 5th, 2007, 02:20 AM
Oh I guess they must have been pretty damn blind giving Laureus to Jen rather than venus after that year :p

Venus was robbed of the award that year, she was far better than jen that year.

winone23
Apr 5th, 2007, 02:21 AM
Sigh... Jen best in 2001??

Venus was 46-5 winning 6 titles out of 12 events

What about the 3-0 record Venus had over Jen in 2001??

What about Venus wining the most prestigious GS?

Jen won only 3 titles that year and had a 56-14 record. 9 more losses. Not to mention she played 17 events.

Venus clearly the best player in 2001

my bad I didn't see your post :wavey:

thrust
Apr 5th, 2007, 02:55 AM
In 2003 Justine won 8 tournaments which included the FO and USO. In 2004, being ill for about half the season, Justine won 5 tournaments which included the AO and Olympics. In 2000 Venus won 6 tournaments that included Wimbledon, USO and the Olympics. In 2001 Venus won another 6 tournaments that again included Wimbledon and USO. In their best two years Justine won 13 tournaments which included 3 Slams and an Olympics. Venus won 12 tournaments which included 4 Slams and an Olympics. Damm close!Two great seasons!!

sgsox
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:00 AM
in this thread i noticed that people are mainly arguing over their creditenitials and accomplishments...

how about their overall games?? i say venus, becuase when she is on her game is so solid.When its on she has the huge 1st serves, the huge second serves(w/ a few doubles) corner seeking groundies, unbeliveable speed,balance, movement, and reach,a solid netgame, and the ability to hit offensive shots and winners while on the dead run or in a defensive position,also she has fight and determination(see wimbledon 2005 lol)

however..when justine is on,justine has great variety(something that has thrown off venus in the last few years),vast court coverage,flawless netgame, a very solid serve, and for how small she is she hits the S*** out of the ball(off both sides), also justine has a more solid second serve(sometimes) and forehand(sometimes) i guess...



but i still have to give it to venus because she has everything she needs to counter anything that anyone(except maybe serena) can throw at her.

Bijoux0021
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:19 AM
Sigh... Jen best in 2001??

Venus was 46-5 winning 6 titles out of 12 events

What about the 3-0 record Venus had over Jen in 2001??

What about Venus wining the most prestigious GS?

Jen won only 3 titles that year and had a 56-14 record. 9 more losses. Not to mention she played 17 events.

Venus clearly the best player in 2001
Perfect example Jen ended 2001 as the number 1 player, but Venus had the better winning record and more titles. Jen was 56-14 and Venus was 46-5. Venus won 6 titles and Jen won 3. Venus also defeated Jen 3 times that year, but according to the computer Jen was the better player that year, when in reality she wasn't.
Venus was robbed of the award that year, she was far better than jen that year.

Too bad that NO ONE CAN EVER ROB Venus of her records, they speak for themselves.

RenaSlam.
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:30 AM
V. Williams

Until Enna can win the biggest tournament in tennis, she will be the lesser of the two.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Sigh... Jen best in 2001??

Venus was 46-5 winning 6 titles out of 12 events

What about the 3-0 record Venus had over Jen in 2001??

What about Venus wining the most prestigious GS?

Jen won only 3 titles that year and had a 56-14 record. 9 more losses. Not to mention she played 17 events.

Venus clearly the best player in 2001
Between January 2001 and January 2002, Jennifer won three Grand Slam events.

How can you say Venus dominated 2001?

Denise4925
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:42 AM
Wow, look at that poll. :eek: It certainly doesn't agree with what the majority of the posters are saying in this thread.

MH0861
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:43 AM
Between January 2001 and January 2002, Jennifer won three Grand Slam events.

How can you say Venus dominated 2001?

They both won 2 slams in 2001 though, no?

MH0861
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:45 AM
This may be a cop out, but I say they're about equal - I think Justine's YEC title + weeks at #1 equal out Venus' few more singles titles and doubles success.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:46 AM
V. Williams

Until Enna can win the biggest tournament in tennis, she will be the lesser of the two.
Historically speaking, Venus needs to win in Paris at least once or the Australian Open before you can make that claim.

Oh, and about one year's worth of being ranked #1 would help.

Right now, they're pretty equal. However, Juju has time on her side.

Denise4925
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:46 AM
They both won 2 slams in 2001 though, no?

Yeah, I thought Jen only won the Australian and the French that year. :confused: Because she's never won the US Open or Wimbledon, unless they had two Australian Opens that year. :lol:

And, this is the self-proclaimed tennis historian saying Jen won 3 in '01. :p

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:46 AM
Nope, Perfect example Jen ended 2001 as the number 1 player, but Venus had the better winning record and more titles. Jen was 56-14 and Venus was 46-5. Venus won 6 titles and Jen won 3. Venus also defeated Jen 3 times that year, but according to the computer Jen was the better player that year, when in reality she wasn't.


I think they gave it to Jen because she came back from her drug
problems to win Slams.

MH0861
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:47 AM
Yeah, I thought Jen only one the Australian and the French that year. :confused: Because she's never won the US Open or Wimbledon, unless they had two Australian Opens that year. :lol:

I guess since January 2002 is "really, really" close to 2001, it somehow counts as having happened in 2001. ;) :lol:

Denise4925
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:49 AM
I guess since January 2002 is "really, really" close to 2001, it somehow counts as having happened in 2001. ;) :lol:

Oh, okaaaaaaay :lol:

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:50 AM
They both won 2 slams in 2001 though, no?
Yes, but someone seems to think that Venus "dominated" that year.

January 2001-January 2002 Jennifer won three of the five majors. The only person that dominated the majors in that span was Jennifer Capriati. That's my point.

winone23
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Between January 2001 and January 2002, Jennifer won three Grand Slam events.

How can you say Venus dominated 2001?

the stats were posted already :confused: :confused: :confused: January 2002 has nothing to do 2001 results :help: Someone stated that ending the year at #1 means you were the best player that year which is not always the case. Venus was better than Jen in 2001 the stats have proved that already.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:53 AM
the stats were posted already :confused: :confused: :confused: January 2002 has nothing to do 2001 results :help: Someone stated that ending the year at #1 means you were the best player that year which is not always the case. Venus was better than Jen in 2001 the stats have proved that already.
I forgot, do you remember who ended 2001 #1? I think it was Hingis or Lindsay. Oh, well, It doesn't really matter I guess because it was neither Jennifer or Venus.

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Historically speaking, Venus needs to win in Paris at least once or the Australian Open before you can make that claim.

Oh, and about one year's worth of being ranked #1 would help.

Right now, they're pretty equal. However, Juju has time on her side.

I agree with you, but I think Vee defending both of her majors is better than Justine winning '03 USO and '04 AO. Not to mention she reached 4 straight Wimbly Finals and 3 US Open Finals...I dunno, she has dominated more than one slam, which Justine has not done, but Justine has 3/4 (5/6 if you count Olympics and YEC) and Venus only has 2/4 (3/6)

:shrug: Apples and Oranges, but I agree that it would be better to make this assessment at the end of their careers.

I'm just glad Serena further separated herself from Justine and the rest of the 5-slam crew :cool:

MH0861
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:55 AM
Yes, but someone seems to think that Venus "dominated" that year.

January 2001-January 2002 Jennifer won three of the five majors. The only person that dominated the majors in that span was Jennifer Capriati. That's my point.

Yes, "that year" = 2001. Not 2002. ;) If you're gonna count January 2002 as part of Capriati's domination of 2001, it should be noted that Venus won three out five as well (September 00-September 01), and for that matter, four out of the last six at that point when you include her Wimbledon 00 crown.

MH0861
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:56 AM
I forgot, do you remember who ended 2001 #1? I think it was Hingis or Lindsay. Oh, well, It doesn't really matter I guess because it was neither Jennifer or Venus.

Lindsay. ;)

Denise4925
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:57 AM
Yes, "that year" = 2001. Not 2002. ;) If you're gonna count January 2002 as part of Capriati's domination of 2001, it should be noted that Venus won three out five as well (September 00-September 01), and for that matter, four out of the last six at that point when you include her Wimbledon 00 crown.

Well, if we're going to go that far, we have to include that Venus made the remaining 3 GS finals of 2002 and 2 GS finals in 2003.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Yes, Justine won 8 titles in 2004. but she only had to beat a Williams in 1 of those 8.

Before the injuries, the sisters were the top two players in the world. They had been in 6 of 8 Slam finals together.

Justine, like every one else, benefitted from this career-changing injuries that took place at Wimbledon 2003. Justine just took advantage more than any other player (Clijsters and Capriati especially come to mind)

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:05 AM
Yes, "that year" = 2001. Not 2002. ;) If you're gonna count January 2002 as part of Capriati's domination of 2001, it should be noted that Venus won three out five as well (September 00-September 01), and for that matter, four out of the last six at that point when you include her Wimbledon 00 crown.
The problem is with the term "dominate"

Venus was only ranked #1 for 12 weeks during this "domination." Heck, I'll even give her February of 2002.

Attempting to say that Venus dominated during a period when Jennifer won an equal amount of grand slam titles, and Jennifer made it to the semi's of the other grand slam events isn't accurate in my opinion.

This thread is about Queen Justine so I'm not talking anymore about Jennifer.

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:05 AM
Between January 2001 and January 2002, Jennifer won three Grand Slam events.

How can you say Venus dominated 2001?

Dec 31 2001 is the end of 2001. It doesn't extend to Jan 2002

Venus won two Slams and a GS Doubles. (Another GS Doubles in 2002)

Jen had 2 Slams and has NEVER won a GS Doubles.

And the biggest reason Venus is Better:

Jen has NEVER beaten Venus, in 2001 or any other year.

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:09 AM
Yes, Justine won 8 titles in 2004. but she only had to beat a Williams in 1 of those 8.

Before the injuries, the sisters were the top two players in the world. They had been in 6 of 8 Slam finals together.

Justine, like every one else, benefitted from this career-changing injuries that took place at Wimbledon 2003. Justine just took advantage more than any other player (Clijsters and Capriati especially come to mind)
The only GS events that Serena has won since 2004, Justine wasn't playing in either of them.

Who are you fooling?;)

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:12 AM
The only GS events that Serena has won since 2004, Justine wasn't playing in either of them.

Who are you fooling?;)

True true ... and if Miami is any indication, the matches could go either way.

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:12 AM
The only GS events that Serena has won since 2004, Justine wasn't playing in either of them.

Who are you fooling?;)

Justine wasn't the "real" #1 during AO 2005, but Serena was for '03 AO '04 USO.

And Serena was M.I.A. from 4 of Justine's majors too :wavey:

That coin has two sides Mamma

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:13 AM
True true ... and if Miami is any indication, the matches could go either way.
I wish for a few tussles this year in major finals. Hopefully Venus can muster up the game to get to one of them. But, Serena will do as well.

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:16 AM
I agree with you, but I think Vee defending both of her majors is better than Justine winning '03 USO and '04 AO. Not to mention she reached 4 straight Wimbly Finals and 3 US Open Finals...I dunno, she has dominated more than one slam, which Justine has not done, but Justine has 3/4 (5/6 if you count Olympics and YEC) and Venus only has 2/4 (3/6)

:shrug: Apples and Oranges, but I agree that it would be better to make this assessment at the end of their careers.

I'm just glad Serena further separated herself from Justine and the rest of the 5-slam crew :cool:

+ Venus has 2 Olympic Golds, 6 GS Doubles ( All Surfaces)and a GS Mixed or 2.
Also 7-1 h2h. ----Doesn't that tip the scale?

Mother_Marjorie
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:17 AM
Justine wasn't the "real" #1 during AO 2005, but Serena was for '03 AO '04 USO.

And Serena was M.I.A. from 4 of Justine's majors too :wavey:

That coin has two sides Mamma

There is a "flip-side" to every coin, too, my child.;)

Justine has been ranked number one longer than Serena and for more years year-end ranking. Heck, since this is a Venus/Justine thread, I'll even throw in that Justine has been #1 longer than Venus, and #1 year-ending twice as much as Venus and still counting. ;)

:help: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But hey, all three are actively playing so we should all just be happy that everyone is now focused.

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:19 AM
I think Vee has the edge, but I mean Justine for the past 15 months has been BY FAR the better of the two (helped out LARGELY by Vee's injuries)...:shrug: The H2H is HUGE in Vee's favor, but the fact that they haven't played in over 4 years is another big moot stat. I'd like them to play this year and for Vee to extend it to 8-1 and beyond to silence all doubt! :yeah:

akosijepoy
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Venus...she has more impact in tennis history compared to justine...even though justine can surpass her with more titles...i still believe venus will be remembered more in the long run

MrSerenaWilliams
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:20 AM
But hey, all three are actively playing so we should all just be happy that everyone is now focused.

Couldn't have said it better if I wanted too :yeah:

Nicolás89
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:27 AM
im not going to quote every post but jennifer 01 < venus 01
venus was the best player of that year and in 00 too

but that is the past, just like som of you think that martinas acomplisments are from stone age suddenly i can say that venus 4 slams were also from stone age, but if we look in recent years who has been playing the best i say juju, there is no comparson between one extraordinary run at one slam and 3 years playing great consistenly

MistyGrey
Apr 5th, 2007, 05:53 AM
I think Justine has the slight edge, because I dont think doubles are that important. If doubles were that important, Natasha Zvereva would be considered greater than Mary Pierce, Jana Novotna greater than Jennifer Capriati!
Justine has a very slight edge in my book, because she has been number one longer, has won three of the four majors, been to the finals of all four majors atleast twice, won YEC and has a better record at Wimbledon than Venus does at the French/AO. Venus has won only 3 more titles than Justine, which doesnt say much, specially since Justine is 2 years younger.

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:43 AM
I think Justine has the slight edge, because I dont think doubles are that important. If doubles were that important, Natasha Zvereva would be considered greater than Mary Pierce, Jana Novotna greater than Jennifer Capriati!
Justine has a very slight edge in my book, because she has been number one longer, has won three of the four majors, been to the finals of all four majors atleast twice, won YEC and has a better record at Wimbledon than Venus does at the French/AO. Venus has won only 3 more titles than Justine, which doesnt say much, specially since Justine is 2 years younger.

Venus 7 ...Juicy 1
You are talking about their entire Career and the h2h happened in their
Career. You can't just discount the stat cause they haven't played in
some time and you think Justine has been better the last few yrs. The
only way Justine can beat that stat is to beat Venus and make it 7-7.
Venus beat her 7 times in a row. Justy needs 6 in a row to pull even.
She can only do it on the tennis court and not on this board.
Justy has been to 2 Wimby finals. Venus has been to 5 and beat Henin
in 3 including one of those finals. This more than balances out the
henin RG record especially with the * on one of Juju's wins.
What one has done against another player or what one has won while
the other was out is irrelevant. The better player is which one wins
against the other. And right now Venus has that.

And why don't doubles count. Its part of their career stats. And that is
what you are using for the comparison. You can't just ignore them
because it goes against your opinion.
If Justine had them I'll bet you wouldn't think they were all that
unimportant then.

And Natasha has never won a GS Singles title.

Pleasantville
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:00 AM
i think venus is better. justine usually plays more tournaments than venus each year and she has less titles. plus their h2h says it all. and remember that venus has been in more GS finals than JH and she lost most of them to her little sister, Serena, which means that she might have purposely lost some of those matches. and PLUS Venus makes more money than Justine. Her rankings on Forbes are usually higher from year to year.

MistyGrey
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:59 AM
Venus 7 ...Juicy 1
You are talking about their entire Career and the h2h happened in their
Career. You can't just discount the stat cause they haven't played in
some time and you think Justine has been better the last few yrs. The
only way Justine can beat that stat is to beat Venus and make it 7-7.
Venus beat her 7 times in a row. Justy needs 6 in a row to pull even.
She can only do it on the tennis court and not on this board.
Justy has been to 2 Wimby finals. Venus has been to 5 and beat Henin
in 3 including one of those finals. This more than balances out the
henin RG record especially with the * on one of Juju's wins.
What one has done against another player or what one has won while
the other was out is irrelevant. The better player is which one wins
against the other. And right now Venus has that.

And why don't doubles count. Its part of their career stats. And that is
what you are using for the comparison. You can't just ignore them
because it goes against your opinion.
If Justine had them I'll bet you wouldn't think they were all that
unimportant then.

And Natasha has never won a GS Singles title.

So Venus leads Justine 7-1 in career head to head... when was the last time they played? early 2003, how many GS titles Justine had at that time? 0... how about Venus..4
What was Kim's head to head with Justine in early 2003? 7-2 (excluding ITF matches)
What was Lindsay's head to head with Justine in early 2003. 5-1.
How many sets Justine won against Serena on non clay surfaces till 2003.. 0
Now, she just bagelled her on a hardcourt!
How many GS titles Justine has won since their last match? 5
Venus? 1. Enough said!
Head to head stats dont really decide who gets the higher billing in history books. Like someone mentioned, Monica Seles is 1-9 against Venus and 1-4 against Serena, but is still considered greater than both.

Read my post again, I said Justine is greater in my book. Unlike you, I am not trying to impose my opinion on others, neither am I trying to convince everyone that she is. I dont consider doubles that big a deal, and neither do most players.If you think doubles are just as important, then yes Venus has the edge over Justine. But as far as singles are concerned, I think Justine is a more accomplished and not to mention a more complete player than Venus.

Natasha has never won a singles GS title? :eek: Well I never knew! I thought she had won 22 singles GS titles? :lol:
You kinda agreed with my point there... If doubles titles are that important, than surely more than 20 doubles GS are better than 2 in singles, but somehow people still consider Mary Pierce better than Natasha. Same with Jen and Jana.

Shimizu Amon
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:19 AM
I can't say, let's just wait and see what they still have up their sleeve... :).

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:19 AM
Justine's been hotter..so odds are that she'll add another one befor Venus does. Both are greats though.

Prep_boii
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:38 AM
man venus never care about no.1 rank in her prime years from 2000 to 2001 she was not the no.1 rank player in world on paper but everybody know who was real best player.so like i said earlier justine will pass my girl if she win wimb


2000 i could say Venus was the #1 player. sure. but Lindsay and Hingis were all still relatively competetive to her as well.

2001 Jennifer Capriati was clearly the more deserving #1 as she outperformed in the slams, which count for more than all else. And Venus lost in the 1st or 2 nd round of one of those slams in 01. so no....i dont nessesarily agree with "your assesment" sorry!:kiss: :wavey: :wavey: :tape: :lick:

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:39 AM
doesn't matter..Serena's greater than both :p

Prep_boii
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:44 AM
Dec 31 2001 is the end of 2001. It doesn't extend to Jan 2002

Venus won two Slams and a GS Doubles. (Another GS Doubles in 2002)

Jen had 2 Slams and has NEVER won a GS Doubles.

And the biggest reason Venus is Better:

Jen has NEVER beaten Venus, in 2001 or any other year.

Big whoop.

since when is that relevant?

Capriati still managed to make the semis or better in all 4 slams, Venus didnt. So that counts for more than 1 doubles slam which has ZERO relations to singles. whatsoever. Heck, Jennifer could have conceivably won a doubles slam of her own that year, but clearly, she was too busy outperforming Venus.

Not to mention 2002. Capriati won a slam that year. Venus =0:tape:

all_slam_andre
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:54 AM
I can't believe that Davenport (nothing against Lindsay I do like her), beat both Venus and Capriati who had won 2 grand slam titles each, to finish as year end number 1 in 2001. Lindsay didn't reach a single grand slam final that year (her record at the slams was 2 semi-finals and a quarter-final), and she didn't even win the 5th biggest tournament, the YEC. That was simply outrageous.

serena_fan
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:28 PM
Venus

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Big whoop.

since when is that relevant?

Capriati still managed to make the semis or better in all 4 slams, Venus didnt. So that counts for more than 1 doubles slam which has ZERO relations to singles. whatsoever. Heck, Jennifer could have conceivably won a doubles slam of her own that year, but clearly, she was too busy outperforming Venus.

Not to mention 2002. Capriati won a slam that year. Venus =0:tape:

Please reread the last sentence in my post:

" Jen has NEVER beaten Venus, in 2001 or any other year."

How can you say this is irrelevant.

Tennisaddict
Apr 5th, 2007, 12:53 PM
i think venus is better. justine usually plays more tournaments than venus each year and she has less titles. plus their h2h says it all. and remember that venus has been in more GS finals than JH and she lost most of them to her little sister, Serena, which means that she might have purposely lost some of those matches. and PLUS Venus makes more money than Justine. Her rankings on Forbes are usually higher from year to year.

Do you have any evidence of that? Why don´t you provide any which I´m sure you can´t before you go accusing V & S of fixing their matches :rolleyes:

sgsox
Apr 5th, 2007, 01:00 PM
Nope, Perfect example Jen ended 2001 as the number 1 player, but Venus had the better winning record and more titles. Jen was 56-14 and Venus was 46-5. Venus won 6 titles and Jen won 3. Venus also defeated Jen 3 times that year, but according to the computer Jen was the better player that year, when in reality she wasn't.


actually jennifer did not end 2001 as the number one player

she took the number one spot from hingis in september or october that year,but when the end of the year rolled around, lindsay davenport was number one in the computer rankings. although thats only on paper...jen and venus had a better year than her in 2001

dibbyt
Apr 5th, 2007, 04:54 PM
Do you have any evidence of that? Why don´t you provide any which I´m sure you can´t before you go accusing V & S of fixing their matches :rolleyes:

A fixed match means both parties are in cohots with a pre-decided outcome. "Venus may have purposely lost" - who knows? However it does seem as if she didn't play that match to win it and if not who could blame her. At this time Vee was up 4-1 in their grand slam count so why not let lil sis have the next one. We will never know what was in Vee's mind while she was across the next from her lil sister who clearly wanted this win and clearly needed this win.

starin
Apr 5th, 2007, 05:01 PM
So Venus leads Justine 7-1 in career head to head... when was the last time they played? early 2003, how many GS titles Justine had at that time? 0... how about Venus..4
What was Kim's head to head with Justine in early 2003? 7-2 (excluding ITF matches)
What was Lindsay's head to head with Justine in early 2003. 5-1.
How many sets Justine won against Serena on non clay surfaces till 2003.. 0
Now, she just bagelled her on a hardcourt!
How many GS titles Justine has won since their last match? 5
Venus? 1. Enough said!
Head to head stats dont really decide who gets the higher billing in history books. Like someone mentioned, Monica Seles is 1-9 against Venus and 1-4 against Serena, but is still considered greater than both.

Read my post again, I said Justine is greater in my book. Unlike you, I am not trying to impose my opinion on others, neither am I trying to convince everyone that she is. I dont consider doubles that big a deal, and neither do most players.If you think doubles are just as important, then yes Venus has the edge over Justine. But as far as singles are concerned, I think Justine is a more accomplished and not to mention a more complete player than Venus.

Natasha has never won a singles GS title? :eek: Well I never knew! I thought she had won 22 singles GS titles? :lol:
You kinda agreed with my point there... If doubles titles are that important, than surely more than 20 doubles GS are better than 2 in singles, but somehow people still consider Mary Pierce better than Natasha. Same with Jen and Jana.

:lol: bagelling someone doesn't mean anything if you don't win the match.

rjd1111
Apr 5th, 2007, 05:16 PM
A fixed match means both parties are in cohots with a pre-decided outcome. "Venus may have purposely lost" - who knows? However it does seem as if she didn't play that match to win it and if not who could blame her. At this time Vee was up 4-1 in their grand slam count so why not let lil sis have the next one. We will never know what was in Vee's mind while she was across the next from her lil sister who clearly wanted this win and clearly needed this win.


The whole family has said that as kids Serena, being the baby sister, was
spoiled and always wanted, and mostly got her way. Venus was always
the caregiver in their sibling relationship. I don't think Venus purposely
lost to Serena , but it could have been a sub-conscious thing in her that
the Familial bond would not let her get that Kickass atitude towards the
baby sister she was so used to nurturing.

Williams Rulez
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:04 PM
at the moment, its way too close to call.. we should just wait till one of them wins another major, then it would be more clear cut..

The Daviator
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:18 PM
I can't believe that Davenport (nothing against Lindsay I do like her), beat both Venus and Capriati who had won 2 grand slam titles each, to finish as year end number 1 in 2001. Lindsay didn't reach a single grand slam final that year (her record at the slams was 2 semi-finals and a quarter-final), and she didn't even win the 5th biggest tournament, the YEC. That was simply outrageous.

Blame the ranking system :shrug: All Lindsay did was play her events, and she won quite a few :p

Tennisaddict
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:25 PM
]A fixed match means both parties are in cohots with a pre-decided outcome.[/B] "Venus may have purposely lost" - who knows? However it does seem as if she didn't play that match to win it and if not who could blame her. At this time Vee was up 4-1 in their grand slam count so why not let lil sis have the next one. We will never know what was in Vee's mind while she was across the next from her lil sister who clearly wanted this win and clearly needed this win.

That´s true, but I can´t believe that Venus would ´give´ a match in a grand slam final even if it was against her baby sister.

Come on we´re talking about grand slam finals here. She would never know if she would get to another slam final again and so far she hasn´t made another OZ, RG or Us Open final.

So I don´t believe that she would lose a match on purpose to Serena.
If she had to lose to anyone however than she would liked to lose to Serena.
You don´t fight your way trough slam draws just to get beaten in the final.
I just don´t buy that.

starin
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:34 PM
That´s true, but I can´t believe that Venus would ´give´ a match in a grand slam final even if it was against her baby sister.

Come on we´re talking about grand slam finals here. She would never know if she would get to another slam final again and so far she hasn´t made another OZ, RG or Us Open final.

So I don´t believe that she would lose a match on purpose to Serena.
If she had to lose to anyone however than she would liked to lose to Serena.
You don´t fight your way trough slam draws just to get beaten in the final.
I just don´t buy that.

well they both have said numerous times that they always dreamed about playing each other in the finals of slams. so she (Venus) may not have the will to beat her sister but she def. had the desire to play Serena in finals. Either way we'll never really know until their biographies come out after they retire.

Denise4925
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:36 PM
The whole family has said that as kids Serena, being the baby sister, was
spoiled and always wanted, and mostly got her way. Venus was always
the caregiver in their sibling relationship. I don't think Venus purposely
lost to Serena , but it could have been a sub-conscious thing in her that
the Familial bond would not let her get that Kickass atitude towards the
baby sister she was so used to nurturing.

Why would she do that, when she kicked Serena's ass every time they played before that Miami '02 match? Also, she whipped Serena in the (I believe) fourth round of the US Open '05. It was also visibly apparent that she wanted to win the Wimbly '02 final.

lecciones
Apr 5th, 2007, 06:39 PM
Blame the ranking system :shrug: All Lindsay did was play her events, and she won quite a few :p

You can blame her for 2004-2005 also where she ended no.1 without winning a slam. I mean really for me I remember who was the best and no.1 of each year by looking at the year end rank which tells me who performed the best during the whole year.

In any case to answer the thread, as of now, Venus has it. They have 5 slams each but Venus has won as many other big titles as Henin, plus a host of doubles grandslams (which is why i always say doubles is important, and in that case why looking at the whole career is important). Can you say that Henin has the ability to win a doubles grandslam, which she doesn't have yet? I don't think so, although henins has ended the year twice as the no.1 and venus has now, I still see venus as the better player overall right now.

littlebin
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:14 PM
If Justine has Serena or Kim as doubles partner, definitely she will win doubles grandslam.

You can blame her for 2004-2005 also where she ended no.1 without winning a slam. I mean really for me I remember who was the best and no.1 of each year by looking at the year end rank which tells me who performed the best during the whole year.

In any case to answer the thread, as of now, Venus has it. They have 5 slams each but Venus has won as many other big titles as Henin, plus a host of doubles grandslams (which is why i always say doubles is important, and in that case why looking at the whole career is important). Can you say that Henin has the ability to win a doubles grandslam, which she doesn't have yet? I don't think so, although henins has ended the year twice as the no.1 and venus has now, I still see venus as the better player overall right now.

jazzfuzion
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:30 PM
Right now, in terms of singles play, they have to be equal. While Venus never ended the year #1, everyone knows she was the best player in 2000 and 2001.

knowing is one thing.unfortunately,in our world,proof of purchase is very important.

SAEKeithSerena
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:34 PM
right now i'd say justine, however, i think venus will have the most glorious after they each retire. too close to call, though.

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:06 PM
I think Justine ill have consistent seasons from here on out and win at least 3 more slams, so I think her career will overshadow Venus once its all said and done. But I think Venus will always be more remembered, but Justine will be the greater player historically.

all_slam_andre
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:16 PM
The YEC and #1 ranking don't come into play when Venus hardly even played YEC or never really cared about #1 ranking.

Same with doubles.. Justine didn't play much doubles, if i remember right, and she didnt' have Serena Williams as her partner.

That's exactly right. People are entitled to say that Justine's superior ranking history doesn't really matter as Venus didn't care enough about playing in the smaller tournaments to help her push for the world no.1 spot. However they have to be consistent and also say that Venus's superior doubles career doesn't matter as Justine has never cared about doubles tennis.

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:25 PM
So Venus leads Justine 7-1 in career head to head... when was the last time they played? early 2003, how many GS titles Justine had at that time? 0... how about Venus..4
What was Kim's head to head with Justine in early 2003? 7-2 (excluding ITF matches)
What was Lindsay's head to head with Justine in early 2003. 5-1.
How many sets Justine won against Serena on non clay surfaces till 2003.. 0
Now, she just bagelled her on a hardcourt!
How many GS titles Justine has won since their last match? 5
Venus? 1. Enough said!
Head to head stats dont really decide who gets the higher billing in history books. Like someone mentioned, Monica Seles is 1-9 against Venus and 1-4 against Serena, but is still considered greater than both.

Read my post again, I said Justine is greater in my book. Unlike you, I am not trying to impose my opinion on others, neither am I trying to convince everyone that she is. I dont consider doubles that big a deal, and neither do most players.If you think doubles are just as important, then yes Venus has the edge over Justine. But as far as singles are concerned, I think Justine is a more accomplished and not to mention a more complete player than Venus.

Natasha has never won a singles GS title? :eek: Well I never knew! I thought she had won 22 singles GS titles? :lol:
You kinda agreed with my point there... If doubles titles are that important, than surely more than 20 doubles GS are better than 2 in singles, but somehow people still consider Mary Pierce better than Natasha. Same with Jen and Jana.

Just a sidenote..I don't know why Justine-fans are making such big deal of this bagel. At the end of the day the result still stands: Justine hasn't beaten Serena away from the clay...you don't hear any Serena-fans bragging about the fact that two of Serena's losses to Justine on clay were 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd, soo..

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Just a sidenote..I don't know why Justine-fans are making such big deal of this bagel. At the end of the day the result still stands: Justine hasn't beaten Serena away from the clay...you don't hear any Serena-fans bragging about the fact that two of Serena's losses to Justine on clay were 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd, soo..

True, the Miami DOES prove that Justine can compete with Serena on every surface. I mean, Justine was ONE point away from winning the match. She didnt, but it shows that she can beat Serena on other surfaces ;)

MistyGrey
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:32 PM
Just a sidenote..I don't know why Justine-fans are making such big deal of this bagel. At the end of the day the result still stands: Justine hasn't beaten Serena away from the clay...you don't hear any Serena-fans bragging about the fact that two of Serena's losses to Justine on clay were 7-5 and 7-6 in the 3rd, soo..

OK to be honest I wasnt bragging about the bagel. Just making my point that Justine has improved a lot since 2003. And really, that bagel is the only positive thing that any Justine fan can take from that match, and I agree it was of no use since Justine went on to lose the match, but still it does show that Justine can more than keep up with Serena even on a hard court.
I dont agree with the last part tho. Williams fans have often bragged about how Serena lost close matches to Justine on her least fav/Justine's fav surface, which is actually true. So I dont mind the bragging, coz Justine eventually won those matches... like Serena won the Miami final.

MistyGrey
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:34 PM
True, the Miami DOES prove that Justine can compete with Serena on every surface. I mean, Justine was ONE point away from winning the match. She didnt, but it shows that she can beat Serena on other surfaces ;)

Just the point I was trying to make! Like I was saying in the other thread Justine can beat Serena on other surfaces, she hasnt yet tho.

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:35 PM
True, the Miami DOES prove that Justine can compete with Serena on every surface. I mean, Justine was ONE point away from winning the match. She didnt, but it shows that she can beat Serena on other surfaces ;)

When Serena is playing as tight as she was at the beginning of the match, what quality player wouldn't be able to keep up with her? This match proved nothing other than the fact that Serena is mentally stronger and a more ferocious fighter than Justine.

I cannot to see Serena/Henin on a non clay surface again.

MistyGrey
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Just a sidenote..I don't know why Justine-fans are making such big deal of this bagel.

Also, Any bagel handed out to Serena is a big deal!

Orion
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Justine has the slight edge in terms of a better SINGLES career (IMO), but Venus has had the better overally career, simply because of the doubles. If you're going to start ranking their titles and achievements, I'd say it goes:

Venus:
Wimbledon x3
US Open x2
Olympic Singles Gold
Career Women's Doubles Slam
Olympic Doubles Gold
Mixed Doubles x2
World # 1 for 11 weeks
6 additional Slam finals
6 Tier I titles

Justine:
French x3
US Open
Australian Open
Olympic Singles Gold
YEC
Year End #1 x2
4 additional slam finals
8 Tier I titles

Based on this, Justine has a very, very, very slight edge in terms of singles achievements (slightly more variety in slams, longer #1, YEC, Tier I's), but Venus blows Justine out of the water entirely in terms of doubles, absolutely no contest.

Venus definitely has the better OVERALL career, but it's fair to say that Justine has had a slightly better singles career. It can be argued either way in singles, although I do think Justine is just a tiny bit higher, but I can't imagine anyone saying that Justine has had the better overall career.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:42 PM
When Serena is playing as tight as she was at the beginning of the match, what quality player wouldn't be able to keep up with her? This match proved nothing other than the fact that Serena is mentally stronger and a more ferocious fighter than Justine.

I cannot to see Serena/Henin on a non clay surface again.

To me the first set and a half was Justine really taking it to Serena. Serena's serve was clearly off, but I thought Justine played such a smart set and a half. She served well (kept Serena guessing), and she kept Serena off balance. I thought she was dicating well, and then she would hit behind Serena consistently. I dunno, I think it just showed that Justine played very smart, and Serena's serve was off.

dibbyt
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:45 PM
Why would she do that, when she kicked Serena's ass every time they played before that Miami '02 match? Also, she whipped Serena in the (I believe) fourth round of the US Open '05. It was also visibly apparent that she wanted to win the Wimbly '02 final.

Exactly, she routinely beat Serena up until the Miami 02 match but it was Serena who captured the 1st grand slam. Remember Venus in the stands at the 99 U.S. Open? Shrouded in that hooded cape - she wasn't exactly jumping for joy to see Serena achieve the family dream 1st. Fast forward to Wimbledon 00 - semi's. People started to question if Venus had the muster to win the grand slam since she had underachieved in the slams at this point. This was a must win for Venus for her self confidence. Knowing this, could Serena employ a take no prisoner attitude toward he beloved sister? Could you in the same situation? After this Venus went on a tear and by the time the French open of 02 Venus was up 4-1 in the slam dept. At this point in time, Serena needed this win more than Venus. Compare the 02 French final Venus to the 01 US Open final Venus against JCap and tell me Venus played the French final to win it. She made not have played to lose it but there was no desire in her display to win it as she displayed in the 01 U.S. open - the fight and looks she gave Jen says it all. Present day, none of this emotional baggage should interfere should V&S contest for another final - ala Wimbledon of 03 however Venus gave it a valiant effort but was too injured to take Serena down.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:49 PM
Exactly, she routinely beat Serena up until the Miami 02 match but it was Serena who captured the 1st grand slam. Remember Venus in the stands at the 99 U.S. Open? Shrouded in that hooded cape - she wasn't exactly jumping for joy to see Serena achieve the family dream 1st. Fast forward to Wimbledon 00 - semi's. People started to question if Venus had the muster to win the grand slam since she had underachieved in the slams at this point. This was a must win for Venus for her self confidence. Knowing this, could Serena employ a take no prisoner attitude toward he beloved sister? Could you in the same situation? After this Venus went on a tear and by the time the French open of 02 Venus was up 4-1 in the slam dept. At this point in time, Serena needed this win more than Venus. Compare the 02 French final Venus to the 01 US Open final Venus against JCap and tell me Venus played the French final to win it. She made not have played to lose it but there was no desire in her display to win it as she displayed in the 01 U.S. open - the fight and looks she gave Jen says it all. Present day, none of this emotional baggage should interfere should V&S contest for another final - ala Wimbledon of 03 however Venus gave it a valiant effort but was too injured to take Serena down.

I semi agree with this. I always felt that it was a different Venus on court in Miami and Paris in 2002. She just seemed disinterested and not the usual fight that she had. I dunno, hard to say.

I also believed that Venus was the better player through out the 2003 Australian Open, but as soon as it was an all sister final, I knew Serena would win. No matter what. Why? Anyone that has a sibling can probably relate. If I was playing my brother, who I love more than anything, and he was 1 win away from THAT much history, I wouldnt have it in me to take him down.

faste5683
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:50 PM
When Serena is playing as tight as she was at the beginning of the match, what quality player wouldn't be able to keep up with her? This match proved nothing other than the fact that Serena is mentally stronger and a more ferocious fighter than Justine.

I cannot to see Serena/Henin on a non clay surface again.

One inch lower on a return of serve at 40-15 in the second set by Serena and suddenly Justine would have been "mentally stronger and a more feroicious fighter"? If Serena's so much stronger than Justine, why didn't Justine come out so "tight"?

There is no other "quality" player who can consistently spit back Serena's first and second serve...

:wavey:

:wavey:

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 08:55 PM
To me the first set and a half was Justine really taking it to Serena. Serena's serve was clearly off, but I thought Justine played such a smart set and a half. She served well (kept Serena guessing), and she kept Serena off balance. I thought she was dicating well, and then she would hit behind Serena consistently. I dunno, I think it just showed that Justine played very smart, and Serena's serve was off.

But its just like with Venus. The serve is the backbone of her game. If her serve is off, then she is not playing well. She cannot play well if her serve is not setting up points for her. And Serena's footwork was so bad, not because of Henin getting her out of position, but her feet were like lead. She just could not move them at all. She was lunging at balls she could have easily moved to. Henin was just playing her game, even her fans said she wasnt doing anything spectacular, like against Dementieva at Fed Cup or other great matches shes played in the last year. Serena was just so tight, and Justine was having her way with her.

dibbyt
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:00 PM
I semi agree with this. I always felt that it was a different Venus on court in Miami and Paris in 2002. She just seemed disinterested and not the usual fight that she had. I dunno, hard to say.

I also believed that Venus was the better player through out the 2003 Australian Open, but as soon as it was an all sister final, I knew Serena would win. No matter what. Why? Anyone that has a sibling can probably relate. If I was playing my brother, who I love more than anything, and he was 1 win away from THAT much history, I wouldnt have it in me to take him down.

Yes, Venus spanked JuJu in the semi's while Serena just managed to get by Clisters who would have won if not for the serious choking. Serena was almost beat in the early rounds by Loit so on paper it would seem as if Venus would have defeated Serena in the final. But this win for Serena would have given Serena her sought after Serena Slam. Did Venus let up in the end so lil sis could have her coveted prize? Isn't this the same Venus who when they were kids gave Serena her lunch money so Serena could eat while Venus went without?

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:06 PM
But its just like with Venus. The serve is the backbone of her game. If her serve is off, then she is not playing well. She cannot play well if her serve is not setting up points for her. And Serena's footwork was so bad, not because of Henin getting her out of position, but her feet were like lead. She just could not move them at all. She was lunging at balls she could have easily moved to. Henin was just playing her game, even her fans said she wasnt doing anything spectacular, like against Dementieva at Fed Cup or other great matches shes played in the last year. Serena was just so tight, and Justine was having her way with her.

Well Henin doesnt have to do anything special to beat Serena, IMO. Her game is good enough to do so.

I do agree though that if the sisters are not serving well, it changes their entire game. Serena was running well, it was the balls right to her that she was having trouble with. She wasnt making the small adjustments.

Also, I found her sometimes too casual at the net ... she made a lot of good vollies, but missed a lot of easy ones (well not a lot, but I can think of 3 from the top of my head).

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:09 PM
One inch lower on a return of serve at 40-15 in the second set by Serena and suddenly Justine would have been "mentally stronger and a more feroicious fighter"? If Serena's so much stronger than Justine, why didn't Justine come out so "tight"?

There is no other "quality" player who can consistently spit back Serena's first and second serve...

:wavey:

:wavey:

oh come on, where was Henin's consistent spit back in the second and third sets? She was able to chip Serena's serves back so deep in the first set because they were mostly predictable serves. Serena had no problems with Henin's return from 0-6, 5-4 15-40 to the end of the match. And Venus and Capriati both do better jobs at returning Serena's serve. Unless it was a well placed ace, Serena's serve rarely seemed to even bother Capriati.

and Serena was not missing a return down match point, 1 inch higher and that would have been the return winner Serena intended it to be. ;)

Serena proved the greater fighter that she was because even though she came out tight, she fought herself and forced herself to play well. Henin loses 2 match points and fades away, losing 6 straight games. Has 3 consecutive BPs to break Serena at 5-4, cannot do it. Henin, queen of coming back from 1-5 down, cannot even stave off 1 MP off of a second serve. Serena outtoughed her, plain and simple! Henin finally had to be mentally tough against someone who was on her level, not the likes of Kuznetsova, or Clijsters, or Myskina, or Razzano, but Serena Williams. And we saw how tough she really was. She folded. I must admit, she's pretty tough, tougher than most, she leveled the match back to 3-all in the third. Most girls would have gotten bagelled at that point like Davenport, 2005 AO finals. But shes not as tough as Serena for sure.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Jennifer Capriati was the best player to ever return Serena's serve. I remember, even in the all the matches Serena was winning against Capriati, Jennifer would just crush returns, even off the first serves.

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:12 PM
I semi agree with this. I always felt that it was a different Venus on court in Miami and Paris in 2002. She just seemed disinterested and not the usual fight that she had. I dunno, hard to say.

I also believed that Venus was the better player through out the 2003 Australian Open, but as soon as it was an all sister final, I knew Serena would win. No matter what. Why? Anyone that has a sibling can probably relate. If I was playing my brother, who I love more than anything, and he was 1 win away from THAT much history, I wouldnt have it in me to take him down.

but isnt this the same different, disinterested Venus you've seen from Miami 2002 to the present day, if you take away four amazing weeks In June/July 2003 & 2005?

dibbyt
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Well Henin doesnt have to do anything special to beat Serena, IMO. Her game is good enough to do so.

I do agree though that if the sisters are not serving well, it changes their entire game. Serena was running well, it was the balls right to her that she was having trouble with. She wasnt making the small adjustments.

Also, I found her sometimes too casual at the net ... she made a lot of good vollies, but missed a lot of easy ones (well not a lot, but I can think of 3 from the top of my head).

"henin doesn't have to do anything special to beat serena" - Yes she does, the special thing she needs to do is win the match which she did not. The "hand" didn't save her this time. Maybe she thought the "leg" would after that phony fall. lol

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:14 PM
Well Henin doesnt have to do anything special to beat Serena, IMO. Her game is good enough to do so.

Of course, this is Justine Henin. 5-3 H2H vs Serena before last Sunday.
but to BAGEL her, playing simply solid tennis? Come on.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:15 PM
but isnt this the same different, disinterested Venus you've seen from Miami 2002 to the present day, if you take away four amazing weeks In June/July 2003 & 2005?

No. Against any other player, in every other match, you can still see the drive and will to win. I have never seen Venus so uneffortful than the Miami match. She didnt run. She didnt serve. She didnt return. She was there physically, but mentally/emotionally she was absent.

In other matches, you can still see her fighting and trying to win.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:17 PM
Of course, this is Justine Henin. 5-3 H2H vs Serena before last Sunday.
but to BAGEL her, playing simply solid tennis? Come on.

You missed the part where I said Serena's serve was off :p
To me, the top players are too good to ever be bagelled. You knew Serena was off. Henin was playing great, but had she won the match the story would have been Henin's SMART play, and Serena's UFE. You have to admit that the first set and a half, JH played a very smart match. It was almost enough to really crush Serena.

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:23 PM
You missed the part where I said Serena's serve was off :p
To me, the top players are too good to ever be bagelled. You knew Serena was off. Henin was playing great, but had she won the match the story would have been Henin's SMART play, and Serena's UFE. You have to admit that the first set and a half, JH played a very smart match. It was almost enough to really crush Serena.

I agree. She kept getting into BH to BH rallies with Serena, exploiting Serena's now poor movement to her BH out wide. plus, most of Serena's BH errors were because Henin's own backhand was so heavy during the match, and Serena couldn't get into position well enough. She did play solid and intelligently, not her best, but very smart.

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:24 PM
:lol: Ah the Vee-only fans...where was the sisterly love when Venus was beating Serena left and right building up that 5-1 h2h?? If you guys wanna play the: oh it's so hard playing your lil sibbling...then Serena had a hard-time play Venus as well..I mean, she totally destroy the field at Wimvby '00...but can't do anything in the SF against Venus...she destroys Martina in the SF at the '01 Open...but then comes out tighter than tight against Venus.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:25 PM
I agree. She kept getting into BH to BH rallies with Serena, exploiting Serena's now poor movement to her BH out wide. plus, most of Serena's BH errors were because Henin's own backhand was so heavy during the match, and Serena couldn't get into position well enough. She did play solid and intelligently, not her best, but very smart.

Well and like Carillo kept saying during the match, the backhand side of both sisters is usually the consistent shot. Serena's forehand is her bigger shot (especially off the return ... mp #2 ;) ), but her backhand is consistently better, which is why it was surprising to see her misfire so often on that side. But really until maybe 2-1 in the second set, the only good part of Serena's game was her net play.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:26 PM
:lol: Ah the Vee-only fans...where was the sisterly love when Venus was beating Serena left and right building up that 5-1 h2h?? If you guys wanna play the: oh it's so hard playing your lil sibbling...then Serena had a hard-time play Venus as well..I mean, she totally destroy the field at Wimvby '00...but can't do anything in the SF against Venus...she destroys Martina in the SF at the '01 Open...but then comes out tighter than tight against Venus.

But they never played in a major final, which is a completely different situation until the 2001 Open. And what was the FIRST thing out of Vee's mouth? "I love you, okay? This doesnt even feel like a win". :sad:

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:27 PM
OK to be honest I wasnt bragging about the bagel. Just making my point that Justine has improved a lot since 2003. And really, that bagel is the only positive thing that any Justine fan can take from that match, and I agree it was of no use since Justine went on to lose the match, but still it does show that Justine can more than keep up with Serena even on a hard court.
I dont agree with the last part tho. Williams fans have often bragged about how Serena lost close matches to Justine on her least fav/Justine's fav surface, which is actually true. So I dont mind the bragging, coz Justine eventually won those matches... like Serena won the Miami final.

Shows she can COMPETE with Serena now...until she beats Serena, can't say she CAN beat Serena.

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:29 PM
But they never played in a major final, which is a completely different situation until the 2001 Open. And what was the FIRST thing out of Vee's mouth? "I love you, okay? This doesnt even feel like a win". :sad:

sooo...if you say it was hard for Venus, that's why she wasn't playing as hard as usual...same goes for Serena too.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:31 PM
sooo...if you say it was hard for Venus, that's why she wasn't playing as hard as usual...same goes for Serena too.

No, I am saying Venus was playing hard. But after the 01 Open, she didnt seem to. At least, imo, not the Miami or Paris match.

Wimbledon 02 and forward was a different story. Serena was unbelievable the entire 2002 Wimbledon. That to me was the best Serena ever was. (With the exception of that early round, crazy match ... where she kept falling ... but she won something like 75 76?)

Stamp Paid
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:35 PM
But tennisIlove, why would it be so hard for Venus and not Serena? Do you think Venus loves Serena more than Serena loves her, or something?

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:36 PM
No, I am saying Venus was playing hard. But after the 01 Open, she didnt seem to. At least, imo, not the Miami or Paris match.

Wimbledon 02 and forward was a different story. Serena was unbelievable the entire 2002 Wimbledon. That to me was the best Serena ever was. (With the exception of that early round, crazy match ... where she kept falling ... but she won something like 75 76?)

ah..thought you were saying that each time Venus lost was because she didn't play hard.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:41 PM
I think naturally Serena has the killer instinct. Every time she goes on to the court she wants to beat her opponent. Not just beat her, CRUSH her. Like the OZ final.

Venus isnt like that. I think it was in 2002 that Venus said that she only has to play to the level of her opponent and its usually good enough to win.

I think Serena never had a complex playing Venus. I think for a long time, Venus was the better, more consistent player. I think the Miami and Paris wins in 2002 gave Serena the confidence to be the best player in the world, and the player she is today because in her mind Venus is/was the best player.

To me, Venus changed completely after the 2001 US Open. She was happy she won another major, but the next two times she played Serena, she was just different on court, imo. Again, it was just those two matches ... but that's all it took. Serena and Venus' best match, imo, was the 2002 Wimbledon final. Now, had Miami and Paris not happened the way they did, Serena wouldnt have won Wimbledon 02 imo. Her wins over Venus gave her the belief and confidence to do it at Wimbledon. By 2002 US Open, Serena was head and shoulders above Venus, especially on the forehand and second serve categories.

Again, I am not saying Venus purposely lost to Serena in Miami or French, I just think she wasnt the same Venus that played Serena before or any other player.

iWill
Apr 5th, 2007, 09:47 PM
what a stupid thing to say. might not be the most important thing, but it's meaningful. why do you think serena keeps putting her finger in the air. to say that you are the best at what you do is special. doesnt matter how flawed the ranking are, it's still special. love when my favorites are number one, make me happy and it makes them happy. it's rare for a player to get to the very top too. more people have won a slam than been ranked number one.

Thats really true to me its really important to have held the number 1 ranking at some point so you can say that they were the best because if u win 2-3 slams at the same tourney but no number 1 ranking ever then to me that just says you were really good on one surface or on one specific occasion however I dont think Vee cares if she is number 1 again cuz shes been there and done that and she doesnt play enough to achieve it anyway but to win more slams..... I think she'll be happieer if she wins the AO or RG in her career then if she held the number 1 ranking again

T-GIRL87
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:02 PM
I think the main reason Henin was able to have her way with Serena in Miami, on a hard court that, has to do with the fact that while Henin's game has improved significiately, Serena's game on the other hand, has slightly regressed in the last few years. Yes, Serena at her best can have her way with the likes of Pova, seeing as how she's smart enough to exploit their movement. But against great movers like Henin, who are able to retrieve her balls and move her around,it will be a lot harder for her. Until Serena can gain a little more speed around the court, even on a hard court Henin will continue to give her problems. As far as Venus is concerned, in my opinion had it not been for Serena and injuries, most likely she could of been the best of this generation. To me she still can, it really has been injuries, and lack of motivation thats kept her from getting back to the top again.

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:05 PM
I think naturally Serena has the killer instinct. Every time she goes on to the court she wants to beat her opponent. Not just beat her, CRUSH her. Like the OZ final.

Venus isnt like that. I think it was in 2002 that Venus said that she only has to play to the level of her opponent and its usually good enough to win.

I think Serena never had a complex playing Venus. I think for a long time, Venus was the better, more consistent player. I think the Miami and Paris wins in 2002 gave Serena the confidence to be the best player in the world, and the player she is today because in her mind Venus is/was the best player.

To me, Venus changed completely after the 2001 US Open. She was happy she won another major, but the next two times she played Serena, she was just different on court, imo. Again, it was just those two matches ... but that's all it took. Serena and Venus' best match, imo, was the 2002 Wimbledon final. Now, had Miami and Paris not happened the way they did, Serena wouldnt have won Wimbledon 02 imo. Her wins over Venus gave her the belief and confidence to do it at Wimbledon. By 2002 US Open, Serena was head and shoulders above Venus, especially on the forehand and second serve categories.

Again, I am not saying Venus purposely lost to Serena in Miami or French, I just think she wasnt the same Venus that played Serena before or any other player.

:lol: So when Venus beats Serena...it's 'cause she's better than Serena. When Serena wins, it's cause Venus had a trauma..that lasted two matches, but gave Serena enough confidence so that when Venus got over the trauma, it already was too late...:lol: Well, well..

bandabou
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:07 PM
I think the main reason Henin was able to have her way with Serena in Miami, on a hard court that, has to do with the fact that while Henin's game has improved significiately, Serena's game on the other hand, has slightly regressed in the last few years. Yes, Serena at her best can have her way with the likes of Pova, seeing as how she's smart enough to exploit their movement. But against great movers like Henin, who are able to retrieve her balls and move her around,it will be a lot harder for her. Until Serena can gain a little more speed around the court, even on a hard court Henin will continue to give her problems. As far as Venus is concerned, in my opinion had it not been for Serena and injuries, most likely she could of been the best of this generation. To me she still can, it really has been injuries, and lack of motivation thats kept her from getting back to the top again.

Interesting...yeah, Serena has lost that half step...but I think she's compesating that now with clutch serving and some pretty good net-play at times.

tennisIlove09
Apr 5th, 2007, 10:15 PM
:lol: So when Venus beats Serena...it's 'cause she's better than Serena. When Serena wins, it's cause Venus had a trauma..that lasted two matches, but gave Serena enough confidence so that when Venus got over the trauma, it already was too late...:lol: Well, well..

You missed the point completely.

Tennisaddict
Apr 5th, 2007, 11:31 PM
well they both have said numerous times that they always dreamed about playing each other in the finals of slams. so she (Venus) may not have the will to beat her sister but she def. had the desire to play Serena in finals. Either way we'll never really know until their biographies come out after they retire.

I think that Serena was just too good the times she beat Venus and vice versa. Sure there are a lot of emotions when they play each other but I believe their intent is to beat each other every time they step out on that court.

Do you really think that Venus would let herself get beaten by Serena in five slam finals because she didn´t have the will? I don´t believe that at all.

AcesHigh
Apr 5th, 2007, 11:41 PM
I think the first few times were really hard for Venus and she didn't have the killer instinct Serena had. However, AO 2003 and Wimby 2003, Venus DEFINITELY wanted to win really bad. Ever since then, Venus has, IMO, has desparately wanted to show she could beat her sister.

tennisbum79
Apr 5th, 2007, 11:47 PM
:lol: So when Venus beats Serena...it's 'cause she's better than Serena. When Serena wins, it's cause Venus had a trauma..that lasted two matches, but gave Serena enough confidence so that when Venus got over the trauma, it already was too late...:lol: Well, well..
I think you missed the thoughtful point made by tennisIlove09.

DavidEllul
Apr 6th, 2007, 01:54 AM
"henin doesn't have to do anything special to beat serena" - Yes she does, the special thing she needs to do is win the match which she did not. The "hand" didn't save her this time. Maybe she thought the "leg" would after that phony fall. lol

phony fall? Were u blind ? Everyone was watching that match and no one has got such a stupid conclusion except you. Or perhaps being a hater just brings you certain special ability to see sth normal ppl are not able to? :lol:

Actually she should have asked for a timeout if she really was faking but the fact was she didn't. End of story.

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2007, 05:35 AM
You missed the point completely.

Did I? I just think it's non-sense. You say Serena never had the trauma, it's just that Venus was better at the beginning....then Serena wins in Miami and Paris in '02( after getting humiliated in 2001 in the Open final), suddenly Venus has some sort of trauma? Kinda lame...don't you think?

starin
Apr 6th, 2007, 06:23 AM
I think that Serena was just too good the times she beat Venus and vice versa. Sure there are a lot of emotions when they play each other but I believe their intent is to beat each other every time they step out on that court.

Do you really think that Venus would let herself get beaten by Serena in five slam finals because she didn´t have the will? I don´t believe that at all.

I think they both want to beat each other but Serena has more motivation to win against her older sister. Younger sister wants to prove something while Venus may not have as much killer instinct against her younger sister. I love that story of Venus giving Serena her gold medal in some regional junior tournament cuz serena wanted gold. I don't think Venus completely capitulated but I def. think there's more psychological things going on than just a regular match. Venus is 1-6 againts Serena in Major Finals. But against opponents not her sister she is 4-1.

AcesHigh
Apr 6th, 2007, 06:36 AM
phony fall? Were u blind ? Everyone was watching that match and no one has got such a stupid conclusion except you. Or perhaps being a hater just brings you certain special ability to see sth normal ppl are not able to? :lol:

Actually she should have asked for a timeout if she really was faking but the fact was she didn't. End of story.



The first fall was legit, although not bad at all and definitely not deserving of a timeout. Justine hardly stopped and kept going to the next point.

The second fall was Henin just slipping and falling on her ass. :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure everyone at home was thinking "here we go again" but credit to her, she kept on playing. HOwever, suddenly she starts hitting winners and Serena has a bit of a fall off... the match suddenly swings her way again.

While I don't think she was faking, it def. wasn't serious. I'm just happy it was a clean match :)

bandabou
Apr 6th, 2007, 08:12 AM
I think they both want to beat each other but Serena has more motivation to win against her older sister. Younger sister wants to prove something while Venus may not have as much killer instinct against her younger sister. I love that story of Venus giving Serena her gold medal in some regional junior tournament cuz serena wanted gold. I don't think Venus completely capitulated but I def. think there's more psychological things going on than just a regular match. Venus is 1-6 againts Serena in Major Finals. But against opponents not her sister she is 4-1.

the psychological stress went both ways..

dibbyt
Apr 6th, 2007, 02:39 PM
phony fall? Were u blind ? Everyone was watching that match and no one has got such a stupid conclusion except you. Or perhaps being a hater just brings you certain special ability to see sth normal ppl are not able to? :lol:

Actually she should have asked for a timeout if she really was faking but the fact was she didn't. End of story.

We are right, the slip and fall was legite - it was the act she displayed after the fall that was phony. Maybe she thought it would throw Serena off or she could gain sympathy from the crowd - it is worked before why not try it again. Also, it must warm Justine's heart to know she has such an ardent defender in you - and they say chivalry is dead. lol

Tennisaddict
Apr 6th, 2007, 03:00 PM
I think they both want to beat each other but Serena has more motivation to win against her older sister. Younger sister wants to prove something while Venus may not have as much killer instinct against her younger sister. I love that story of Venus giving Serena her gold medal in some regional junior tournament cuz serena wanted gold. I don't think Venus completely capitulated but I def. think there's more psychological things going on than just a regular match. Venus is 1-6 againts Serena in Major Finals. But against opponents not her sister she is 4-1.

Venus is 1-5 against Serena not 1-6. I don't think killer instinct can be objectively measured. Venus has always been the one that has the pokerface and doesn't show her emotions outwardly but you don't know what happens on the inside. Serena has always been the extravert one you really can see what's going on emotionally with her when she's in a match.
Again their matches are always difficult but it's difficult for both.
The one who handles the situation the best wins. That's how I see it.
That's why in 2005 Venus won twice she was in better shape and was more ready to take her sister down. You can't make this all about Venus it's about both of them.

Slutiana
Apr 6th, 2007, 04:04 PM
I know that many people aren't talking about Vee and Henin but i just have to say this,
The title of this poll is about who is greater...maybe the career achievements have some relevance it shows which player has used their talent the best...The h2h also has some relevance as it shows that when it comes down to the match..no matter what year or how they are currently playing it shows who is the best on that day and with a record as one sided as that, it shows that venus is better..at least in the matches they played. Venus beat Henin in one of the years she apparently dominated (2003) doesnt that say anything???
But isnt this talking about in many years who will be remembered as the better player and an all time great and i have to say and i think many many more people will say that venus is Greater How good do you think Not just henin but every single player currently on the tour would be right now if the williamses never existed? The williamses didnt introduce power into the game, Nirvatilova did, they didnt bring grunting in, Seles did, They Didnt bring double handers in, Evert did (yes i know henin doesnt hit with it but most women do nowadays) They may not have introduced tons of things to the game but they accellerated the game...a whole new generation copied the're style..once they saw how the williams came into the game and eventually dominated it for four straight years, they knew they had to do what the williams did..the academys started introducing more physical training..they looked to have an aggresive baseline game and so on...i don't have to elaborate much coz im sure that about 80% of people would agree that the williams sisters made the whole of the women's game what it is today without them, the game would just be terrible...
but in 20 years if a tennis mag was to do an article on all time legends..i gaurentee that not only will Venus and Serena be included, they will have the biggest article on them out of every other great..and unless Henin does something amazing like winning a calendar grand slam and influencing the next generation to use single handers again, she will not be there...

rjd1111
Apr 6th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Justine has the slight edge in terms of a better SINGLES career (IMO), but Venus has had the better overally career, simply because of the doubles. If you're going to start ranking their titles and achievements, I'd say it goes:

Venus:
Wimbledon x3
US Open x2
Olympic Singles Gold
Career Women's Doubles Slam
Olympic Doubles Gold
Mixed Doubles x2
World # 1 for 11 weeks
6 additional Slam finals
6 Tier I titles

Justine:
French x3
US Open
Australian Open
Olympic Singles Gold
YEC
Year End #1 x2
4 additional slam finals
8 Tier I titles

Based on this, Justine has a very, very, very slight edge in terms of singles achievements (slightly more variety in slams, longer #1, YEC, Tier I's), but Venus blows Justine out of the water entirely in terms of doubles, absolutely no contest.

Venus definitely has the better OVERALL career, but it's fair to say that Justine has had a slightly better singles career. It can be argued either way in singles, although I do think Justine is just a tiny bit higher, but I can't imagine anyone saying that Justine has had the better overall career.

You forgot one stat for Vee. 7-1 H2H

littlebin
Apr 6th, 2007, 04:37 PM
In 20 years, history book will record Henin listed many many weeks as No.1, while Venus at the bottom of this list.

I know that many people aren't talking about Vee and Henin but i just have to say this,
The title of this poll is about who is greater...maybe the career achievements have some relevance it shows which player has used their talent the best...The h2h also has some relevance as it shows that when it comes down to the match..no matter what year or how they are currently playing it shows who is the best on that day and with a record as one sided as that, it shows that venus is better..at least in the matches they played. Venus beat Henin in one of the years she apparently dominated (2003) doesnt that say anything???
But isnt this talking about in many years who will be remembered as the better player and an all time great and i have to say and i think many many more people will say that venus is Greater How good do you think Not just henin but every single player currently on the tour would be right now if the williamses never existed? The williamses didnt introduce power into the game, Nirvatilova did, they didnt bring grunting in, Seles did, They Didnt bring double handers in, Evert did (yes i know henin doesnt hit with it but most women do nowadays) They may not have introduced tons of things to the game but they accellerated the game...a whole new generation copied the're style..once they saw how the williams came into the game and eventually dominated it for four straight years, they knew they had to do what the williams did..the academys started introducing more physical training..they looked to have an aggresive baseline game and so on...i don't have to elaborate much coz im sure that about 80% of people would agree that the williams sisters made the whole of the women's game what it is today without them, the game would just be terrible...
but in 20 years if a tennis mag was to do an article on all time legends..i gaurentee that not only will Venus and Serena be included, they will have the biggest article on them out of every other great..and unless Henin does something amazing like winning a calendar grand slam and influencing the next generation to use single handers again, she will not be there...

littlebin
Apr 6th, 2007, 04:39 PM
In 20 years, history book will record Henin listed many many weeks as No.1, while Venus at the bottom of this list.

I know that many people aren't talking about Vee and Henin but i just have to say this,
The title of this poll is about who is greater...maybe the career achievements have some relevance it shows which player has used their talent the best...The h2h also has some relevance as it shows that when it comes down to the match..no matter what year or how they are currently playing it shows who is the best on that day and with a record as one sided as that, it shows that venus is better..at least in the matches they played. Venus beat Henin in one of the years she apparently dominated (2003) doesnt that say anything???
But isnt this talking about in many years who will be remembered as the better player and an all time great and i have to say and i think many many more people will say that venus is Greater How good do you think Not just henin but every single player currently on the tour would be right now if the williamses never existed? The williamses didnt introduce power into the game, Nirvatilova did, they didnt bring grunting in, Seles did, They Didnt bring double handers in, Evert did (yes i know henin doesnt hit with it but most women do nowadays) They may not have introduced tons of things to the game but they accellerated the game...a whole new generation copied the're style..once they saw how the williams came into the game and eventually dominated it for four straight years, they knew they had to do what the williams did..the academys started introducing more physical training..they looked to have an aggresive baseline game and so on...i don't have to elaborate much coz im sure that about 80% of people would agree that the williams sisters made the whole of the women's game what it is today without them, the game would just be terrible...
but in 20 years if a tennis mag was to do an article on all time legends..i gaurentee that not only will Venus and Serena be included, they will have the biggest article on them out of every other great..and unless Henin does something amazing like winning a calendar grand slam and influencing the next generation to use single handers again, she will not be there...

littlebin
Apr 6th, 2007, 04:47 PM
For you, everything from her is phony because you always think bad of her.

We are right, the slip and fall was legite - it was the act she displayed after the fall that was phony. Maybe she thought it would throw Serena off or she could gain sympathy from the crowd - it is worked before why not try it again. Also, it must warm Justine's heart to know she has such an ardent defender in you - and they say chivalry is dead. lol

Slutiana
Apr 6th, 2007, 05:21 PM
In 20 years, history book will record Henin listed many many weeks as No.1, while Venus at the bottom of this list.

yeh but we all know that bein no1 isnt the biggest thing to achieve but basically forget about that...without venus nd serena henin would be rubbish...or maybe not rubbish but she wouldnt have to have bulked up and hit at their level and that kind of influence deserves a place in the record books forget about all these acievements the fact that they got the majority of the tennis circuit to play just like them and increase the level of play soo dramatically is something that has never been done and something that henin will NEVER do...

Fan_of_Venus
Sep 7th, 2007, 11:43 PM
Venus is still the greatest. To me that is. And no one can change that. So.....

thrust
Sep 8th, 2007, 12:09 AM
If Justine wins this USO, she will definitely have had the better carrer, to date. Doubles really don^t count these days, as few top players play doubles. Justine could have 100 weeks at #1 Venus has less than 15, and will never be #1 again.

austennis
Sep 8th, 2007, 12:23 AM
Well done to both girls they are both champions and history will remember them this way.. What Venus and Serena did for the african american community in relation to tennis and Justine is an inspiration to many... goodluck in 08 girls

iWill
Oct 26th, 2010, 03:13 AM
:bounce:BUMP:bounce:

Bringing this one up again because I was reading the responses to "Which 7 GS would you rather have - Justine's or Venus'?" and I felt the poll lacked options....and it was a CLOSE Poll

justineheninfan
Oct 26th, 2010, 03:36 AM
Venus is 1-6 againts Serena in Major Finals. But against opponents not her sister she is 4-1.

The records of Venus in slam finals per opponent are interesting:

Serena: 2-6
Davenport: 3-0
Hingis: 0-1
Bartoli: 1-0
Henin: 1-0

Overall in slams vs main rivals:

Hingis: 2-3
Serena: 5-7
Henin: 3-1
Davenport: 5-4
Clijsters: 2-2
Capriati: 1-0
Sharapova: 2-0
Mauresmo: 2-0
Seles: 2-1

I dont remember what it is for Pierce but I know Venus has never lost to her in a slam. The string of quarterfinal opponents of Venus is more impressive than semifinal, indicating either depth of the womens game in the late 90s and early 2000s, or her often unwillingess to play more to keep her own ranking u.

selesdavhing
Oct 26th, 2010, 05:44 AM
I give a moderate edge to Justine. 3/4 slams, more weeks at number 1 and more Tier 1 titles.

Claycourter
Oct 26th, 2010, 11:02 AM
Justine Henin.

iWill
Jun 21st, 2012, 04:33 AM
BUMP :bounce:

Stonerpova
Jun 21st, 2012, 05:13 AM
Henin slightly more accomplished, Venus the better player.

supergrunt
Jun 21st, 2012, 10:39 AM
Justine. :shrug: :tape:

supergrunt
Jun 21st, 2012, 10:39 AM
voted for venus.

Shvedbarilescu
Jun 21st, 2012, 10:57 AM
To me this is more than just comparing stats. If it was that simple then I suppose providing one considers doubles Venus has a very big edge. If one doesn't consider doubles, Justine probably does have a small edge.

But as said above I think this is about more than just comparing stats. To me Justine disappointed me greatly with her 1st retirement walking away from the game once she hit a wall and began to slump. For me the greatest champions deal with slumps and carry on regardless, eventually finding a way out of them. And real champions have the guts to accept losses and still continue to compete. Of course, to Justine's credit she did return to the game and with that return, even though she might not have added many more titles, she did recover a lot of lost respect for me. That 2nd retirement was an entirely different matter and obviously one that wasn't of her choosing and as such very unfortunate. Losing Henin that second time made me very sad and I did feel sorry for her.

As for Venus, she never retired, and she has fought on and continued to compete despite a health condition that for most players with her earnings and success would have signaled it's time to retire. That Venus has not done that and has continued to fight and compete to the best of her present ability is to me the true sign of a champion. Being a champion to me isn't about always winning. It is about simply being the best you can be and having the courage to fight against the odds for the love of your sport. Venus hasn't added any Grand Slams to her resume in the last year and I don't suppose she will add anymore, at least in singles in the future, but in terms of demostrating the true grit and class of a champion, Venus has done as much this year as at any time in her career, perhaps more.

I voted for Venus.

nealcaffrey
Jun 21st, 2012, 11:05 AM
Objectively, Henin has better singles achievements. But I admire Venus much much more. Also she has 5 Wimbledons and Wimbledon for me is the most prestigious slam so in my personal view, I rank Venus higher.

JoPova
Jun 21st, 2012, 11:34 AM
This is tough! Justine is the best clay-courter of her generation, while Venus is the best player on grass of her generation! I'm going to say Justine, but it's really close!

Sonja1989
Jun 21st, 2012, 11:49 AM
I would say Henin. She spent lot of time as no1. And she is overall the better player IMO. But yes, it's close.

Matt01
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:02 PM
Objectively, Henin has better singles achievements.


Obviously.

Venus is more accomplished in doubles, though [*not adding sarcastic comment/smiley here*].

Uranium
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:03 PM
BUMP :bounce:

Bump for what? This horse has been beaten to death for a while now.

pierce85
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:24 PM
Bump for what? This horse has been beaten to death for a while now.

Agreed, it's like a vicious circle. We are destined to witness the same arguments and the same fights over and over again

AcesHigh
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:25 PM
It all depends on how Venus finishes her career.

Until then, it's a matter of preference.

thrust
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:42 PM
This is tough! Justine is the best clay-courter of her generation, while Venus is the best player on grass of her generation! I'm going to say Justine, but it's really close!

I AGREE. At their very best, Venus would have the advantage on grass and fast HC while Justine would have the advantage on clay and, perhaps, slower HC. I think that, overall, Justine was the more consistant player which accounts for her advantage of weeks and YE at #1. As for doubles, Venus had Serena as her partner which was a huge advantage over any other doubles player of this era. The sisters were just to good, big and strong for their commpetition, as most doubles players today are people who were not outstanding singles players. In the 40's,50's,60's and 70's most of the top singles players also competed in doubles. That sort of ended with the Evert-Nav era. One of my favorit tennis pictures is that of Justine and Vensus standing next to each other holding their Wimbldon Trophies in 01. It looks like a 20 year old woman against a 13 YO kid. Venus had the advantage of size, speed and reach. Justine had the consistancy.

Mashi
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:45 PM
Justine.

Vlover
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:47 PM
It all depends on how Venus finishes her career.

Until then, it's a matter of preference.

Totally concur! As expected all the members of the Venus envy club are trying to discredit her achievements but history will record and remember Venus Williams as one of the most outstanding icons of women's tennis when most of the others will probably get a passing mention.:worship:

thrust
Jun 21st, 2012, 01:53 PM
OG, since when double becomes so important :confused: :lol: :lol:

When comparing Venus to Justine-LOL!!

Sammo
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:18 PM
Henin, 3 of 4 Slams > 2 of 4. Plus her technique was much better and she didn't have Venus' genetical advantage. I mean, 1.85 - 1.67 :lol:

V.e.s.W
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:23 PM
Henin, 3 of 4 Slams > 2 of 4. Plus her technique was much better and she didn't have Venus' genetical advantage. I mean, 1.85 - 1.67 :lol:

Being 167 also has its advantages............

Sammo
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:26 PM
Being 167 also has its advantages............

Can't really think of any... I mean people could say speed but Venus with her legs could get to the other corner of the court with 3 steps :lol:

V.e.s.W
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:30 PM
Can't really think of any... I mean people could say speed but Venus with her legs could get to the other corner of the court with 3 steps :lol:

Well, when you are that tall, like Venus is, you might have problems with balls that are close to your body since your arms are longer (especially Venus' arms). Balls that jump low can also be a problem I guess :)

NashaMasha
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:40 PM
Being 167 also has its advantages............

but not at Wimbledon, you should be at least 5'9" to be a real competitor on grass.

V.e.s.W
Jun 21st, 2012, 02:54 PM
but not at Wimbledon, you should be at least 5'9" to be a real competitor on grass.

Thats some crap ;)

AcesHigh
Jun 21st, 2012, 03:03 PM
Can't really think of any... I mean people could say speed but Venus with her legs could get to the other corner of the court with 3 steps :lol:

Being that tall definitely has disadvantages on grass where the bounce stays low.

Also being that tall and lanky has technical disadvantages.

And the 3/4>2/4 argument is soooo overrated unless you win both Roland Garros and Wimbledon. Otherwise, two of those slams are on hardcourt. Henin gets a slight edge for variety of slams but that's all, a slight edge.

NashaMasha
Jun 21st, 2012, 03:31 PM
Thats some crap ;)

really? in 15 years only one woman below 5'9 has won Wimbledon. But even Martina managed to reach SF or higher only twice in her career(but FO- 5, AO-6, USO-6)