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No Name Face
Feb 3rd, 2007, 02:55 PM
why are some of the gay people here so ashamed of being gay? it can't be easy, but neither is being any minority in america. if i had a choice to be 100% white, i wouldn't take it, because i like who i am. isn't acceptance of who you are one of the most important things in life? it's not to say i haven't had issues being one of the only black kids in a primarily white setting (and i'm biracial, so that makes it even weirder to never feel that way) but i came to terms with it and i'm a lot better off because of it.

i just don't understand how a gay person would take a straight pill...i don't feel that there's anything wrong with being gay, bi, or straight. i mean, i think very few people are 100% gay or straight, to begin with.

can someone please enlighten me or give me another perspective? it's something i really always wanted to know/understand.
thanks.

Nicjac
Feb 3rd, 2007, 03:29 PM
Well, if the world would consist of people like you, nobody would hide in a closet anymore.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. The majority (oh, and maybe your employer and your mother and several others) think differently.

CooCooCachoo
Feb 3rd, 2007, 03:34 PM
I agree with you. I would not take a straight pill if something like that existed. The entire terminology is already hurtful, suggesting that homosexuality is some kind of disease for which a cure is much welcomed.

However, as you said yourself, you have had to come to terms with who you are. This implies that you are fighting an internal, highly emotional battle in a societal setting that is not always as welcoming and tolerant as you would like it to be. I am not at all ashamed of being gay, but as long as heterosexuality is, by far, the mode in society, it means I can experience some sort of feeling of alienation; not shame. I am currently in the latter stages of the process of turning this alienation into a sense of belonging and a positive feeling of self-awareness.

partbrit
Feb 3rd, 2007, 03:35 PM
Internalized homophobia

venus_rulez
Feb 3rd, 2007, 03:44 PM
To be honest I think a lot of people take those feelings of I'm going to be who I am and not feel bad about it from movies and tv, especially Americans. ALmost every tv or movie arc has someone fighting something (whether it be the race, sexuality, the way they look physically) and then after trying to be something different which inevitably fails they realize that who they are isn't that bad at all and the next time someone calls them a name they ignore it and come back with some witty retort and then the movie ends. What you don't see is the 4th or 5th time that same person is called out of their name or is looked at weird how that can grind a person down sometimes. I think we as humans have a forever complex. We want things to last forever and they never do. I'm not sure the point of all this is to learn to be ok with yourself and accepting of whatever your issue is until the end of time, but more of learning how to rebound on the days you don't fell so good about yourself. I'm 21 and gay and it did take a while for me to be comfortable with it. Now I can even joke about it (I'm the token black guy and homo among my friends lol) but that doesn't mean there aren't somedays that I'm aware of the difference (however slight it might be) or the disadvantages there CAN be from being gay. Sometimes having to ignore or nto care about what people think can be draining enough.

No Name Face
Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:03 PM
Well, if the world would consist of people like you, nobody would hide in a closet anymore.

but i mean...how bad can it be? someone will always hate you for who you are. you will always face adversity if you're not the majority.


Unfortunately, it doesn't. The majority (oh, and maybe your employer and your mother and several others) think differently.

that's a good point, but as for the employer, it's illegal to discriminate on that clause alone. about your family/mother, if they don't accept you for who you are, then the hell with them. i dunno, that's how i view it.

Selah
Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:09 PM
I honestly was just pondering some of these thoughts you brought up after reading that other thread. I was just wondering if dealing with homophobia is worst than dealing with racism on a personal level. As a black person, I have never internalized racism and hated myself. I know it happens with some people from racial groups that are oppressed but I am now thinking it isn't as prevalent as internalized homophobia/self-hatred because of being gay. I think it might be because being black, even though some people think you are less than human etc, you still aren't seen on a mainstream basis as "abnormal". With homosexuality, so many see it as being abnormal, so can you imagine feeling like there is something inherently bad/wrong/abnormal about you, especially when it sometimes feel like you can "choose" to not be? It must be tough. I really empathize.

Nicjac
Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:30 PM
but i mean...how bad can it be? someone will always hate you for who you are. you will always face adversity if you're not the majority.

It still is really bad.

They kill you for being gay or otherwise different, they discriminate against you, they laugh about you, they punch you, they belittle you, they do not understand what happened that you made that "choice" or why you should be treated equally with that skin colour. So go ahead, sue them, but maybe they are not dumb enough to openly discuss the discrimination. You just won't get the promotion. Period.

that's a good point, but as for the employer, it's illegal to discriminate on that clause alone. about your family/mother, if they don't accept you for who you are, then the hell with them. i dunno, that's how i view it.

Well, most of us humans are not strong enough to turn our backs to people we love - or are supposed to love as society tells us to. And - to hell with your mother? She is the reason you are here ... and also partly responsible for your personality, your values, your education, your upbringing ....

partbrit
Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
I was just wondering if dealing with homophobia is worst than dealing with racism on a personal level.

I think dealing with homophobia, racism and sexism are all equally difficult. I am not making a joke here when I say my heart goes out to black lesbians--they get it three ways.

Nicjac
Feb 3rd, 2007, 04:57 PM
I think dealing with homophobia, racism and sexism are all equally difficult. I am not making a joke here when I say my heart goes out to black lesbians--they get it three ways.

You know - I'd be a happy as a sandboy if Condoleezza Rice would become U.S. president. Just think about the impact with regard to discrimination. And - since we are at it - could she be Jewish please? WHAT a combination. :hearts:

Oh, BTW I do not like her political opinions. I am talking about equal opportunities here.

Selah
Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:00 PM
I think dealing with homophobia, racism and sexism are all equally difficult. I am not making a joke here when I say my heart goes out to black lesbians--they get it three ways.

Well, i didn't want to get into whose "struggle" is worst but i am just thinking on a personal level, it must be more difficult in terms of acceptance and so on. I don't necessarily agree with your last statement because again, i think dealing with sexual identity is something very personal, and all black lesbians are not coming from the same place. I can go one better too: a black, jewish lesbian. :)

Haute
Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:14 PM
Well, if the world would consist of people like you, nobody would hide in a closet anymore.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. The majority (oh, and maybe your employer and your mother and several others) think differently.

I was looking at our store's anti-discrimination policy when I was eating my lunch yesterday and there was nothing in there about being able to seek legal action in the event that you're fired because of your sexual orientation. Not that I would have to worry about that because I have the best managers ever, but it made me think about if I were in a different situation where my employers weren't socially open-minded. That's a scary thought and becomes a good reason to stay closeted if your job is in peril and you can't do anything about it.

And the parents is kind of a similar situation as well. I'm not 100% out yet, my friends and one of my sisters know, but not my parents because they're devout Catholics. It would be a similar discrimination type effect if I told them now because I would be be kicked out and they wouldn't pay for my college tuition anymore; they paid for both of my sisters to go to college for all 4 years, so why should I have to pay for my own tuition simply because I'm gay?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes it's hard to be yourself when the world is full of people who are judgmental and vindictive over small stuff.

partbrit
Feb 3rd, 2007, 05:16 PM
i think dealing with sexual identity is something very personal

Yes, it's quite obvious what someone's race and gender are. But the very fact that one's sexual orientation is not obvious is what makes it easy for many people to hide it. And they hide it for very obvious reasons--they don't want to be belittled, overlooked for jobs, whispered about, denied their civil rights, and beaten up. And hiding something that is so vital to one's personal identity is a huge price to pay. Therefore, yes, the personal demons are probably very active and big for those who have not come out.

Kart
Feb 3rd, 2007, 06:27 PM
People aren't ashamed of being gay because they are gay.

They're ashamed because the world around them makes them feel that there's something wrong with them.

égalité
Feb 3rd, 2007, 07:02 PM
From the time you're born, you're raised as straight. Your parents, your teachers, and the media never explain homosexuality as something that you could be, just something that, at best, we should not discriminate against. But it's still something that happens to other people. And then when you realize you're gay, it messes with your head.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Feb 3rd, 2007, 07:13 PM
It's not a matter of shame.

Gays are still getting beaten and murdered, expelled from their own families, accused of being satanic, and cast out by all those they were once close to just for being gay.

There are so many laws still in place that make it difficult to live as a gay couple, to marry, to have children... not TOO long ago did the supreme court make it legal to sodomize for Christ sake! To freaking sodomize--an issue of the supreme court!

There are too many ASSHOLES making it difficult to live in peace as a gay couple... real estate agents, landlords, sales people, neighbors... I mean, coming out is not easy!!!!!

It's not an issue of being ashamed to come out, it's an issue of the bigotted repurcussions one faces for having the audasity to come out in a world where the common hetero is still getting used to the fact that some men are not attracted to women and some women are not attracted to men.

And people haven't even begun to deal with rights for the intersex community, and the gender ambiguous community... so, best wishes to them!

neptuneslims
Feb 3rd, 2007, 07:16 PM
Gay people live in a straight world, where almost everything is designed for and caters to the tastes of straight people.

Straight is the default position, and even if you face no overt homophobia growing up, you are assumed to be straight until you tell people otherwise (unless you happen to conform to certain broad stereotypes), and you have to live in a world where fancying your own gender is an unusual thing.

I can understand why some gays and lesbians might want to be straight because it is so much easier to be straight. If you are straight all romcoms are made for you, you are just like almost everyone else. Things are simpler. No having to come out to your parents, for example. People don't pigeonhole you because of your sexuality if you are straight, you're not a stand-up's crappy punchline. No one wants to stop you adopting kids, or having a spouse you are sexually attracted too. Etc etc etc. In short, straight people don't realise how lucky they are that society favours them. I think gays who want to be straight just want to be treated better, and they just want to see a variety of positive images of themselves in media and arts and everywhere, and you have to be straight to get that.

Being gay in this world is a bit like being an alien. You will never truly be considered normal. You will always be considered second class. That's how I feel anyway. And that's why I think some gay people might take the straight pill, to know what it feels like to be part of the majority.

Apoleb
Feb 3rd, 2007, 08:05 PM
That's a great thread with some very nice posts.

I assume the thread starter isn't gay.

It's not just about being abused, or called names. Many gay people face identity problems and I would say probably most of them face those problems at some point, and it takes a lot of courage to get over them. We live in a society that sets standards of behavior for men and women. If you do not live up to a certain idealized image of a man or a woman, you're a failure. STRAIGHT people face those problems, so how about when you happen to be gay, or a man that is feminine (etc), so you just happen to be completely against what is expected of a man to be respected. I think that's the major problem, and it creates an identity crisis for a lot of gay people.

Wigglytuff
Feb 3rd, 2007, 08:06 PM
Internalized homophobia

exactly. thats all there is to it really

Apoleb
Feb 3rd, 2007, 08:13 PM
It's not a matter of shame.

Gays are still getting beaten and murdered, expelled from their own families, accused of being satanic, and cast out by all those they were once close to just for being gay.

There are so many laws still in place that make it difficult to live as a gay couple, to marry, to have children... not TOO long ago did the supreme court make it legal to sodomize for Christ sake! To freaking sodomize--an issue of the supreme court!

There are too many ASSHOLES making it difficult to live in peace as a gay couple... real estate agents, landlords, sales people, neighbors... I mean, coming out is not easy!!!!!

It's not an issue of being ashamed to come out, it's an issue of the bigotted repurcussions one faces for having the audasity to come out in a world where the common hetero is still getting used to the fact that some men are not attracted to women and some women are not attracted to men.

And people haven't even begun to deal with rights for the intersex community, and the gender ambiguous community... so, best wishes to them!

Excellent post with great points, especially the ones I bolded. In fact there's just a thread next door that clearly shows for example feminine guys are not respected, and that's coming from gay guys.

And yes, sodomy was overturned only three years ago. You had a dozen of states that would still put gay people in prison, and if this law wasn't overturned by the supreme court, they probably wouldn't even have changed it! That's why I think people are getting too excited about gay marriage in the US. If homosexuality was a crime 3 years ago, I expect a long way to go for homosexuals to be really respected and considered equal.

No Name Face
Feb 3rd, 2007, 08:50 PM
It still is really bad.

They kill you for being gay or otherwise different, they discriminate against you, they laugh about you, they punch you, they belittle you, they do not understand what happened that you made that "choice" or why you should be treated equally with that skin colour. So go ahead, sue them, but maybe they are not dumb enough to openly discuss the discrimination. You just won't get the promotion. Period.


Hm. i see, but I mean...blacks are killed for being black, they're discriminated against, etc. i just see a lot of the struggles that being an ethnic minority pose intertwined with the struggles of being a gay man. you say that you're a gay man in a straight world, but i mean...i'm black in a white world. i guess i'm just saying that i don't see how it's productive to be ashamed of who you are. i'm really really not trying to criticize those that are, but i mean...pride is everything. i think a lot of people are starting to realize homosexuality isn't a choice.


Well, most of us humans are not strong enough to turn our backs to people we love - or are supposed to love as society tells us to. And - to hell with your mother? She is the reason you are here ... and also partly responsible for your personality, your values, your education, your upbringing ....

i personally know what it's like to turn your back on someone really really important to you. that might make me a stoic person or whatnot, but i mean...if ANYONE can't accept you for who you are, i feel like they're not worth being in your life. i do have a dismissive personality though, so that could be just me.

some great points in this thread, i'll get to them later.

SilK
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:00 PM
I live in a straight, straight world. And coming where I'm coming from... it's just not OK. I already have enough struggles to deal with in my life, being straight would make things easier, more simple. It's not something I want to put up a fight for. (And honestly, people who have the entire 'proud to be gay' thing going on piss me off, because it seems like that's all they are about).

Though I feel sexually attracted to men, I've never been comfortable with one, not sexually, not emotionally, in a relationship kind of way. At times I feel there is nothing out there for me.

I have a hard time with it. I think it stood in the way of me being comfortable with 'just me'. That is why I don't really talk about it, out of myself. When somebody asks me 'Still no girlfriend?', I simply answer with a 'No', instead of saying 'oh, no, I don't fancy girls.' You know? When somebody says 'Ah, she's FINE', I'll just state my thoughts on the girl in question. Some people might call that some sort of denial, to me it's just not putting the emphasis on being a gay person. Which happens to often. It's just a tiny part of who I am. Of the 'just me' I was talking about earlier. Only difference is, once you tell people you're gay, they start treating you differently (not necessarily for the bad, but still, different).

!<blocparty>!
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:19 PM
why are some of the gay people here so ashamed of being gay? it can't be easy, but neither is being any minority in america. if i had a choice to be 100% white, i wouldn't take it, because i like who i am. isn't acceptance of who you are one of the most important things in life? it's not to say i haven't had issues being one of the only black kids in a primarily white setting (and i'm biracial, so that makes it even weirder to never feel that way) but i came to terms with it and i'm a lot better off because of it.

i just don't understand how a gay person would take a straight pill...i don't feel that there's anything wrong with being gay, bi, or straight. i mean, i think very few people are 100% gay or straight, to begin with.

can someone please enlighten me or give me another perspective? it's something i really always wanted to know/understand.
thanks.

Basically:

People aren't ashamed of being gay because they are gay.

They're ashamed because the world around them makes them feel that there's something wrong with them.

This post sums up everything. Thanks, Kart.

There are loads of reasons why people are ashamed of being gay. You've attacked/made fun of/insulted me for being gay on this site. You've called me a stupid/bitter/nasty queen and mocked me because I go shopping. For me personally, I didn't give a fuck, but many people (moreso in real life) would give a fuck.

I live in an area that has basically 0 openly gay people. I dread to think the kind of abuse/bullying I'd recieve if people knew about my sexuality... I saw it happen with my cousin who was tormented from the age of 16 when guys broke into his locker and found some magazines. The lower school threw eggs at him and he was hospitalised several times by gangs attacking him on his way home. Luckily I'll be moving far away from here and will spend my life being who I am. It's no fun hiding who you are.

I'm a pretty strong person and like to think I'm comfortable with who I am, even at 18: so would never consider taking a 'straight' pill, but really, I can see so many legit reasons why people would take one. Not everyone is like me, not everyone is strong, not everyone is tolerant and not everyone secure with their sexuality.

And oh, race and sexualty are two completely different subjects and shouldn't be compared like that.

Gonzo Hates Me!
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:20 PM
I have a hard time with it. I think it stood in the way of me being comfortable with 'just me'. That is why I don't really talk about it, out of myself. When somebody asks me 'Still no girlfriend?', I simply answer with a 'No', instead of saying 'oh, no, I don't fancy girls.' You know? When somebody says 'Ah, she's FINE', I'll just state my thoughts on the girl in question. Some people might call that some sort of denial, to me it's just not putting the emphasis on being a gay person. Which happens to often. It's just a tiny part of who I am. Of the 'just me' I was talking about earlier. Only difference is, once you tell people you're gay, they start treating you differently (not necessarily for the bad, but still, different).

I think this is interesting, and shows you have strong character... because from my gender studies courses, we examined how society makes everything a dichotomy. You're either black or white, gay or straight, you like the color blue or you like the color pink, you're a boy or a girl (when there are medical cases when you're not one or the other!). It's so ridiculous. I don't think people should be pressured to to adhere to these polarizations either, and I don't think there's anything wrong with not completely KNOWING how you feel about your attraction to men and your attraction to women. I feel like society pressures people to take a position in all these dichotomies, and know what we are, like it's unacceptable to be confused or to be searching or to still be learning about yourself or to refuse to make a choice or take a position in the dichotomies. That's why I really feel sorry for people in the intersex community. Why do they have to be forced by their parents or anyone to choose one, be a boy or a girl. It's so annoying. What's with this "either/or" society we have? It's so unhealthy for the human soul.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:21 PM
I live in a straight, straight world. And coming where I'm coming from... it's just not OK. I already have enough struggles to deal with in my life, being straight would make things easier, more simple. It's not something I want to put up a fight for.


*relates*

:hug:

Haute
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:38 PM
I have a hard time with it. I think it stood in the way of me being comfortable with 'just me'. That is why I don't really talk about it, out of myself. When somebody asks me 'Still no girlfriend?', I simply answer with a 'No', instead of saying 'oh, no, I don't fancy girls.' You know? When somebody says 'Ah, she's FINE', I'll just state my thoughts on the girl in question. Some people might call that some sort of denial, to me it's just not putting the emphasis on being a gay person. Which happens to often. It's just a tiny part of who I am. Of the 'just me' I was talking about earlier. Only difference is, once you tell people you're gay, they start treating you differently (not necessarily for the bad, but still, different).

That's more a reflection on those people than on you. No one has treated me differently since I started telling people, luckily most of the people in my life are open-minded and do take me for who I am. Although like many situations in life, the key word here being "most."

SilK
Feb 3rd, 2007, 10:46 PM
That's more a reflection on those people than on you. No one has treated me differently since I started telling people, luckily most of the people in my life are open-minded and do take me for who I am. Although like many situations in life, the key word here being "most."

You can see it in little things. Let me take my class for example. Once they found out I was gay (we were at an event with a couple of classmates, by BF at the time was there to, I introduced him)... anyway, once they found it, little things changed.

The girls become more comfortable with me, more open, personal. The guys all had a different reaction. But in general, they just try to avoid making gay themed jokes, or talk about girls with me. They are constantly aware of what they are going to say once I am around. I also hate when people say something that might be offending to gays, then turn to me to apologize for it. :shrug:

Marshmallow
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Internalized homophobia

Put simply, i agree.

Unlike race, where after someone abuses you racially, or makesyou feellittle because of your race, you are likely to find some kind of support group soon after, most likely in the form of family / friends, to not just help you through pain, but to also give you a sense of belonging, pride and all that good stuff.

With sexuality, you experience the bad, but not many have that social group/ person to help them through. My family vented homophobic views, so did friends etc etc. When everyone seems to disapprove, you just want to get rid of this bad thing that makes everyone look down on you/ laugh at you...

Getting over the racial abuse i've had has been easier i think, than the complex abuse i've had for being gay (and effeminate especially in childhood), because i saw lots of black people and role models daily. Hope that makes sense.

Marshmallow
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:13 AM
That's a great thread with some very nice posts.

I assume the thread starter isn't gay.

It's not just about being abused, or called names. Many gay people face identity problems and I would say probably most of them face those problems at some point, and it takes a lot of courage to get over them. We live in a society that sets standards of behavior for men and women. If you do not live up to a certain idealized image of a man or a woman, you're a failure. STRAIGHT people face those problems, so how about when you happen to be gay, or a man that is feminine (etc), so you just happen to be completely against what is expected of a man to be respected. I think that's the major problem, and it creates an identity crisis for a lot of gay people.

Another good post.

I just wanted toadd to the identitything. One of my close friends still after numerous debates would take the straight pill. There isn't much of a positive gay identity. What is theay male identity, i know that's a tough question-but most answers tend tocentre around something superficial like fashion knowledge /grooming -or promiscuity. Gay pride seems to have lost it's substance, just another excuse to wear tight revealing clothes and have a party.

While i know better,my friend still sees nothing positive in being gay. This even after his family seems to be okay with it.

G1Player2
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:08 AM
why are some of the gay people here so ashamed of being gay? it can't be easy, but neither is being any minority in america. if i had a choice to be 100% white, i wouldn't take it, because i like who i am. isn't acceptance of who you are one of the most important things in life? it's not to say i haven't had issues being one of the only black kids in a primarily white setting (and i'm biracial, so that makes it even weirder to never feel that way) but i came to terms with it and i'm a lot better off because of it.

i just don't understand how a gay person would take a straight pill...i don't feel that there's anything wrong with being gay, bi, or straight. i mean, i think very few people are 100% gay or straight, to begin with.

can someone please enlighten me or give me another perspective? it's something i really always wanted to know/understand.
thanks.

First of all, I think it is a little wrong for you to compare being black to being gay. Don't open up Pandora's box.

Anyway, what gay people here or ashamed of being gay that actually admit they are gay? They all seem pretty open to me and accepting. I mean, WhattheDeuce may have voiced his frustrations here about being gay but more often than not, he seems comfortable with who he is. I haven't met anyone here who is ashamed or adversely affected being gay although they might share their concerns from time to time on how society views them.

Now, there ARE some people here who claim they are straight, but are probably actually gay. And the ones who show homophobic characteristics are likely gay themselves. Internalized racism anyone? i.e. Might engage in gay sexual activities but condemn others for it and also say they can't be gay because they don't feel an emotional connection for that same sex.

G1Player2
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by partbrit http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/buttons/blue/viewpost.gif (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=9961723#post9961723)
Internalized homophobia


I was trying to think of this word and I found it thanks to you. :)

¤CharlDa¤
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:20 AM
GPlayer, remember we are on a messageboard. Though I must say wtaworld and the posters really helped me get in touch with who I really am, being out and comfortable on a virtual world is much more easy that in real life. I strongly think that most of the very outrageously gay people on this board are the ones who have the most trouble with it in *real* life. This is just a personal hypothesis, I don't have much facts to help me here. But I know it happened for other characteristics (popularity, shyness, etc).

Second, it seems to be really regular for people who aren't comfortable with their sexuality, to complain about how other people try to caracterize themselves only with that aspect. I am proud to be gay. Why? Because I'm proud of myself for standing up, telling myself and others that I'm not ashamed of who I am, and that, despite the hatred and the laughs, being gay is a part of myself I totally accept. Being proud of who you are doesn't only include sexual orientation. But for me, it was part of the process. And that's something I will never forget. If you think that the only part of me is my sexual orientation, then so be it. At least you'll see me for sthing I'm not ashamed of.

G1Player2
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:27 AM
GPlayer, remember we are on a messageboard. Though I must say wtaworld and the posters really helped me get in touch with who I really am, being out and comfortable on a virtual world is much more easy that in real life. I strongly think that most of the very outrageously gay people on this board are the ones who have the most trouble with it in *real* life. This is just a personal hypothesis, I don't have much facts to help me here. But I know it happened for other characteristics (popularity, shyness, etc).

Second, it seems to be really regular for people who aren't comfortable with their sexuality, to complain about how other people try to caracterize themselves only with that aspect. I am proud to be gay. Why? Because I'm proud of myself for standing up, telling myself and others that I'm not ashamed of who I am, and that, despite the hatred and the laughs, being gay is a part of myself I totally accept. Being proud of who you are doesn't only include sexual orientation. But for me, it was part of the process. And that's something I will never forget. If you think that the only part of me is my sexual orientation, then so be it. At least you'll see me for sthing I'm not ashamed of.

CharlaD, I was not discussing the board members actions outside of this board. The threadstarter was referring to why some people are ashamed of being gay on this board, not ashamed of being gay in their regular everyday life, so that is what I went with. That's another story altogether.

G1Player2
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:28 AM
Basically:



This post sums up everything. Thanks, Kart.

There are loads of reasons why people are ashamed of being gay. You've attacked/made fun of/insulted me for being gay on this site. You've called me a stupid/bitter/nasty queen and mocked me because I go shopping. For me personally, I didn't give a fuck, but many people (moreso in real life) would give a fuck.

I live in an area that has basically 0 openly gay people. I dread to think the kind of abuse/bullying I'd recieve if people knew about my sexuality... I saw it happen with my cousin who was tormented from the age of 16 when guys broke into his locker and found some magazines. The lower school threw eggs at him and he was hospitalised several times by gangs attacking him on his way home. Luckily I'll be moving far away from here and will spend my life being who I am. It's no fun hiding who you are.

I'm a pretty strong person and like to think I'm comfortable with who I am, even at 18: so would never consider taking a 'straight' pill, but really, I can see so many legit reasons why people would take one. Not everyone is like me, not everyone is strong, not everyone is tolerant and not everyone secure with their sexuality.

And oh, race and sexualty are two completely different subjects and shouldn't be compared like that.

Because you are :lol:

hablo
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:49 AM
I honestly was just pondering some of these thoughts you brought up after reading that other thread. I was just wondering if dealing with homophobia is worst than dealing with racism on a personal level. As a black person, I have never internalized racism and hated myself. I know it happens with some people from racial groups that are oppressed but I am now thinking it isn't as prevalent as internalized homophobia/self-hatred because of being gay. I think it might be because being black, even though some people think you are less than human etc, you still aren't seen on a mainstream basis as "abnormal". With homosexuality, so many see it as being abnormal, so can you imagine feeling like there is something inherently bad/wrong/abnormal about you, especially when it sometimes feel like you can "choose" to not be? It must be tough. I really empathize.

You may be right.

SilK
Feb 4th, 2007, 11:20 AM
:speakles: :bolt:

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 4th, 2007, 11:42 AM
:bolt: that was a bit :unsure::scared:

CooCooCachoo
Feb 4th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Tim :scared: :o

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:04 PM
Well since people haven't got that ( :help: ) my point was you should/would never refer to a black person as a ******/monkey/animal just to insult them, so why does it go unnoticed when you refer to someone as a queen because they're gay and you want to insult them.

CooCooCachoo
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:07 PM
Well since people haven't got that (:help: ) my point was you would never refer to a black person as a ******/monkey/animal just to insult them, so why does it go unoticed when you refer to someone as a queen because they're gay and you want to insult them.

The point was obvious, but still. :o

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:09 PM
The point was obvious

So do you agree?

SilK
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:09 PM
Well since people haven't got that ( :help: ) my point was you should/would never refer to a black person as a ******/monkey/animal just to insult them, so why does it go unnoticed when you refer to someone as a queen because they're gay and you want to insult them.

The word Queen doesn't nearly have the historical/racial background as the word ****** does.

CooCooCachoo
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:10 PM
So do you agree?

The word Queen doesn't nearly have the historical/racial background as the word ****** does.

No. I agree with Silas.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:16 PM
So what about monkey then?

The one comment was really racist and the other really homophobic. Even though it isn't as 'bad' as the racist one it still goes unnoticed and I know for a fact if that person was called anything remotely racist he would totally spaz out about it.

diyertom
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:17 PM
why are some of the gay people here so ashamed of being gay? it can't be easy, but neither is being any minority in america. if i had a choice to be 100% white, i wouldn't take it, because i like who i am. isn't acceptance of who you are one of the most important things in life? it's not to say i haven't had issues being one of the only black kids in a primarily white setting (and i'm biracial, so that makes it even weirder to never feel that way) but i came to terms with it and i'm a lot better off because of it.

i just don't understand how a gay person would take a straight pill...i don't feel that there's anything wrong with being gay, bi, or straight. i mean, i think very few people are 100% gay or straight, to begin with.

can someone please enlighten me or give me another perspective? it's something i really always wanted to know/understand.
thanks.
HI,I just join this forum today. I'm Chinese and I'm bi. I don't feel ashamed or awkward.You are the master of yourself.Nobody can beat you down except yourself.Human being has a very short life.Just BE YOURSELF!

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:17 PM
The word Queen doesn't nearly have the historical/racial background as the word ****** does.
couldn't have formed a better combination of words


the point is, those words hurt and shouldn't be used to denigrate someone based on race, gender, or sexual orientation, but sadly we use them. However, some words carry more historical significance than others :unsure::scared::bolt:

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:19 PM
Actually calling some a stupid/bitter/nasty queen isn't exactly homophobic. Just rude.

Calling someone an outright ****** is very racist though.

samn
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:28 PM
That's more a reflection on those people than on you. No one has treated me differently since I started telling people, luckily most of the people in my life are open-minded and do take me for who I am.

I can see the other poster's point, though. For example, I have a gay colleague who is not discriminated against or treated any differently by my other colleagues as long as we're in the office, but on many occasions when some of us have gone out for a drink and the gay coworker hasn't been around, there have been more than a few "queen" jokes and many more uses of the word "******" than you'd expect from a supposedly open-minded group of educated, middle (and upper middle) class Brits, many of whom actually have gay siblings and/or friends and identify as "definitely not homophobic". I find this disgusting and have made my displeasure known, only to be teased for being a "spoilsport" and "part of the PC police". This sort of hypocrisy reminds me of Truman Capote's remark: "A ****** is a gay gentleman who has just left the room."

And yes, I do know that people can't control what others say about them behind their backs, but this makes me understand what the other poster wrote about being conscious of the difference in people's attitudes towards him/her.

samn
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:34 PM
From the time you're born, you're raised as straight. Your parents, your teachers, and the media never explain homosexuality as something that you could be, just something that, at best, we should not discriminate against. But it's still something that happens to other people. And then when you realize you're gay, it messes with your head.

May I just say that this is one of the most succinct, cogent, well-presented, and reasonable responses I've seen on the topic being discussed?

nikita771
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:49 PM
People aren't ashamed of being gay because they are gay.

They're ashamed because the world around them makes them feel that there's something wrong with them.

That's exactly right. Society tells you that you're dirty, you're going to hell, and that you're a bad person because of your sexual preference. As a minority, I can definitely say that I have felt discrimination - but how many minorities are disowned by their families when they find out that they are "black"? That is something that happens sometimes- you lose friends, you lose family...just for being you. It's not fair to compare being gay to being a minority. Both are difficult for different reasons.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 12:50 PM
Actually calling some a stupid/bitter/nasty queen isn't exactly homophobic. Just rude.


S: (n) fagot, ******, fag, fairy, nance, pansy, queen, queer, poof, poove, pouf (offensive term for an openly homosexual man)

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=queen

Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual man.

6. offensive terms for an openly homosexual man

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/queen

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:03 PM
how can queen be an offensive term? it is no where near on the same level as ******.

i mean, some homosexual guys go around calling themselves queens and feeling proud of it. i surely don't see the same for the term ****** which you liken it so much with.

WhatTheDeuce
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:21 PM
People aren't ashamed of being gay because they are gay.

They're ashamed because the world around them makes them feel that there's something wrong with them.
This definitely sums it all up.

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:34 PM
There are loads of reasons why people are ashamed of being gay. You've attacked/made fun of/insulted me for being gay on this site. You've called me a stupid/bitter/nasty queen and mocked me because I go shopping. For me personally, I didn't give a fuck, but many people (moreso in real life) would give a fuck.



i definitely wasn't right for that, but i mean..you were really a shitty person to me. so i went for the low blow. pretty immature of me, i'll admit, but i mean...we're not all perfect.

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:36 PM
CharlaD, I was not discussing the board members actions outside of this board. The threadstarter was referring to why some people are ashamed of being gay on this board, not ashamed of being gay in their regular everyday life, so that is what I went with. That's another story altogether.

no, charlDa is right, i was referring to the macro sense (as in real life) not just the board.

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:39 PM
So what about monkey then?

The one comment was really racist and the other really homophobic. Even though it isn't as 'bad' as the racist one it still goes unnoticed and I know for a fact if that person was called anything remotely racist he would totally spaz out about it.

you're trying to make a parallel with being black and being gay. just in varying degrees. i think they're not inherently similar, but comparisons can be made. anyway, you had just said i shouldn't do that, so it's a little hypocritical for you to throw that argument in, tim.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:42 PM
how can queen be an offensive term? it is no where near on the same level as ******.

i mean, some homosexual guys go around calling themselves queens and feeling proud of it. i surely don't see the same for the term ****** which you liken it so much with.

So what if it isn't? They're both offensive terms when you use them in a certain context. If a straight guy sees a load of gay guys walking down a street and shouts out "Hey piss off you fucking queens", you would consider that to be 'rude' but not homophobic? Right.

i surely don't see the same for the term ****** which you liken it so much with.

I don't make up the definitions.

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:45 PM
So what if it isn't? They're both offensive terms when you use them in a certain context. If a straight guy sees a load of gay guys walking down a street and shouts out "Hey piss off you fucking queens", you would consider that to be 'rude' but not homophobic? Right.


no one would do that, though...not to a group of people. they'd more likely say, "piss off ******s." i thought the phrase queen was somewhat innocuous. for instance, i disliked you a lot...but i'd never call you a ******. i called you a queen because i didn't think it was that bad of a term. i associate it with someone being a high-maintenance piece of shit who thinks they're better than they actually are. sexuality doesn't matter too much about it. i'd call a girl a bitch or a queen too.

but since i'm obviously wrong about the definition and social implications of the word queen, i'll have to check myself.

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:51 PM
!<blocparty>! i'm not too sure we are on the same level when it comes to the definition of what it is to be homophobic.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:51 PM
you're trying to make a parallel with being black and being gay. just in varying degrees. i think they're not inherently similar, but comparisons can be made. anyway, you had just said i shouldn't do that, so it's a little hypocritical for you to throw that argument in, tim.

Of course they can to certain extents, I didn't say they couldn't. I was saying it doesn't make sense to compare being brought up as a black person with being gay because the two are so different, and taking the 'white' pill with the 'gay' pill.

I was just talking about insults and how I find it funny that some people will dish out homophobic comments no problem but then throw a fit when someone says anything racist to them.

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:55 PM
I was just talking about insults and how I find it funny that some people will dish out homophobic comments no problem but then throw a fit when someone says anything racist to them.

yeeeeeeeeh finally we agree with something. but that's just how little society understands or is willing to accept homosexuality.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 01:59 PM
no one would do that, though...not to a group of people. they'd more likely say, "piss off ******s." i thought the phrase queen was somewhat innocuous. for instance, i disliked you a lot...but i'd never call you a ******. i called you a queen because i didn't think it was that bad of a term. i associate it with someone being a high-maintenance piece of shit who thinks they're better than they actually are. sexuality doesn't matter too much about it. i'd call a girl a bitch or a queen too.

but since i'm obviously wrong about the definition and social implications of the word queen, i'll have to check myself.

I've heard it before with my cousin, but no it probably doesn't happen too often people would probably use queer... but it was just an example for HilaryDuffFanboy who didn't answer me anyway.

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:07 PM
Well I'm answering it now. Yes, in such a situation it would be homophobic and rude. But of course, in that context.

The first mention of queen was in a very different context of which was hardly homophobic in my opinion.

Andy_
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:12 PM
anyway, once they found it, little things changed.

The girls become more comfortable with me, more open, personal. The guys all had a different reaction. But in general, they just try to avoid making gay themed jokes, or talk about girls with me. They are constantly aware of what they are going to say once I am around. I also hate when people say something that might be offending to gays, then turn to me to apologize for it. :shrug:

Shouldn't people just refrain from making "gay themed jokes" as a general rule, and not just because they know they're in the presence of one gay person? So, if they stop when they're around you cuz you're out to them, I think they're just doing what they should be doing all the time.

As for them not talking about girls with you... I don't know exactly what you're referring to, here. If they sort of no longer trust that you can be a friend and possibly give advice when it comes to how to behave around girls, when it comes to their relationships with girls and all that, well it's a little foolish of them. But if what you mean is that they stop making sexual references about women and the kind of comments straight guys often share... uhm... I wouldn't really mind. Opposite, the thing is I don't like it too much when I'm around straight men and everything they seem to do is cracking jokes about a woman's breast, privates and so on. They might find it arousing in a way, or fun... I find it slightly annoying, as in I just can't relate, so I feel kind of out of place. I mean, I don't think I'd drop comments about a hot guy we just passed in the street, if I was with a straight friend... just cuz I realise that might make him feel uncomfortable.
But hey, that's only my point of view...

Some of the comments in the past pages have been a very interesting and sensible read, thanks guys for sharing. And thanks to the thread starter, for showing a honest interest for understanding something he'd never looked into :cool: Yup, if the world were made of people like him, gay people would probably have less reasons to hide...

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:14 PM
how can queen be an offensive term? it is no where near on the same level as ******.

i mean, some homosexual guys go around calling themselves queens and feeling proud of it. i surely don't see the same for the term ****** which you liken it so much with.

Well I'm answering it now. Yes, in such a situation it would be homophobic and rude. But of course, in that context.

The first mention of queen was in a very different context of which was hardly homophobic in my opinion.

You asked how it can be an offensive term so I gave you a pretty extreme example. You may just think it's 'rude' for a straight person to insult a gay person by referring to them as a bitter queen but I think it can be extremely offensive and homophobic in some cases.

hdfb
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:23 PM
Yes, in some cases.

kirjen
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:32 PM
We all need to have tolerence for each others lifestyle choices. It is ironic that this topic is on these boards, as many might be surprised by the lifestyle choices of some players.

venus_rulez
Feb 4th, 2007, 02:47 PM
We all need to have tolerence for each others lifestyle choices. It is ironic that this topic is on these boards, as many might be surprised by the lifestyle choices of some players.


Cruz Bustamante, during the time of the California recall election, said something that I found highly enlightening. And he was saying what we really need in the world is acceptance not tolerance. Because tolerance basically means you're "ok" with something as long as you really don't have to see it. But acceptance means it's truly alright with people choosing or being however they want to be without ridicule or recourse, etc.

kirjen
Feb 4th, 2007, 03:06 PM
Thank you for making that point, very good point! Acceptance is what we need.

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 04:01 PM
I was just talking about insults and how I find it funny that some people will dish out homophobic comments no problem but then throw a fit when someone says anything racist to them.

i know that i have been making progress...it was actually you who told me it was bad to call things 'gay' and i've taken that to heart. so that's good? you'll never convince me that calling someone a ****** is worse than calling someone a ******, but i do understand that the former word should never be used.

!<blocparty>!
Feb 4th, 2007, 04:17 PM
i know that i have been making progress...it was actually you who told me it was bad to call things 'gay' and i've taken that to heart. so that's good? you'll never convince me that calling someone a ****** is worse than calling someone a ******, but i do understand that the former word should never be used.

Who said that?

Monica_Rules
Feb 4th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I've always thought that they gay people on this board are quite proud of themselves and they should be.

One of my bestfriends who i've know since i was 10 and him 9 is gay and it doesn't make me think more or less of him because of it. I just treat him the same as anyother human being as i do with one of my housemates in uni whos bi, but been with 2 women over thr opast 2 years.

I myself am proud of the fact i am welsh and what that entails, people should be proud of themselves for whatever reason sexuality, race, nationality, intelligence, achievements. And other people should accept other people for their diferences.

partbrit
Feb 4th, 2007, 04:31 PM
I was just talking about insults and how I find it funny that some people will dish out homophobic comments no problem but then throw a fit when someone says anything racist to them.

And people who have a fit when someone says something racist--or homophobic--do not bat an eye when someone says something sexist.

We all need to have tolerence for each others lifestyle choices.

I'm all for tolerance, but being gay is not a lifestyle "choice."

Monica_Rules
Feb 4th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Oh while i'm here.

Do gay people get offended if they are the 'token gay one' or say' Oh yeah i know Jim, gay jim. Is that offencive?

No Name Face
Feb 4th, 2007, 05:52 PM
Who said that?

it was a statement of fact. nothing more, nothing less. and the 'you'll' was purely rhetorical, not meaning you.

Kart
Feb 4th, 2007, 08:16 PM
I've always thought that they gay people on this board are quite proud of themselves and they should be.


To be fair though, this is an anonymous internet message board.

I wonder how many people are as comfortable in the real world as they're allowed to be on here.

Not so many I suspect.

BTW I agree with whoever said that racism and homophobia aren't the same kind of thing.

They do have a lot in common but at the same time I see a big difference in the way that society deals with them behind closed doors - I don't think people find homophobia as unacceptable as racism for some reason.

WhatTheDeuce
Feb 4th, 2007, 08:20 PM
They do have a lot in common but at the same time I see a big difference in the way that society deals with them behind closed doors - I don't think people find homophobia as unacceptable as racism for some reason.
So very true once again.

Kart
Feb 4th, 2007, 08:28 PM
^ Did you stay off the cigarettes BTW ?

WhatTheDeuce
Feb 4th, 2007, 08:51 PM
^ Did you stay off the cigarettes BTW ?
Well I continued for a bit after I made that thread. :p But I had cut down significantly to like 2-3 a day... and now Ive been smoke free for about 2 weeks. :D

Kart
Feb 4th, 2007, 08:53 PM
^ Nice one mate.

Congrats :yeah:.

SelesFan70
Feb 4th, 2007, 11:09 PM
Everyone is different even if they have things in common with others (like being gay). If we all thought the same and reacted the same it would be a boring planet.

Kirt12255
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:52 AM
To be fair though, this is an anonymous internet message board.

I wonder how many people are as comfortable in the real world as they're allowed to be on here.

Not so many I suspect.

BTW I agree with whoever said that racism and homophobia aren't the same kind of thing.

They do have a lot in common but at the same time I see a big difference in the way that society deals with them behind closed doors - I don't think people find homophobia as unacceptable as racism for some reason.

:worship: Completely agree Kart! However I don't think it's a bad thing for alot of the posters to have an avenue to be their "true" selves, reguardless of the means.

As for this "straight-pill", when I was 13-14 I would have done anything to get my hands on something like that. It all has to do with maturity.

I had a situation the other day where "moi" was accused of being ashamed of my sexuality. I had been playing pool down the local with a group and after about 4 hours the topic came up and I explained I was. One girl turned around to me and said "what are you ashamed or something?". I just said "what I do behind my bedroom doors is no-one elses business, you didn't tell me you were straight."

It's the same with work, I've been there for 3 months now and nobody knows because,. quite simply, nobody has asked. If someone asked I would be honest. That doesn't mean I'm ashamed, it just means I'm not the type to march down the street in spandex shorts holding a sign. Each to their own.

Gayness is so common place these days I think it's irrelevant to say "Hi I'm Pete, and I'm gay". Pffffttt to that.

In essence all gays and lesbians are seeking a sense or normalcy, sometimes that can take a while to get, hense high suicide rates amongst gay and lesbian teenagers. But all that is changing now.;)

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 5th, 2007, 01:21 AM
To be fair though, this is an anonymous internet message board.

I wonder how many people are as comfortable in the real world as they're allowed to be on here.

Not so many I suspect.

BTW I agree with whoever said that racism and homophobia aren't the same kind of thing.

They do have a lot in common but at the same time I see a big difference in the way that society deals with them behind closed doors - I don't think people find homophobia as unacceptable as racism for some reason.

:worship:

MrSerenaWilliams
Feb 5th, 2007, 01:22 AM
Well I continued for a bit after I made that thread. :p But I had cut down significantly to like 2-3 a day... and now Ive been smoke free for about 2 weeks. :D
:smooch:

Kart
Feb 5th, 2007, 12:17 PM
However I don't think it's a bad thing for alot of the posters to have an avenue to be their "true" selves, reguardless of the means.


I agree with that as well - as long as less wordly posters don't get the misguided idea that the world around them is as gay-friendly as WTAworld.

Welcome back BTW :p.

kirjen
Feb 5th, 2007, 01:53 PM
What I find disturbing is that some athletes, famous or otherwise, feel they can not be true to themselves or the media or fans because they fear loss of sponsorships or being looked at like it is shameful to be gay or bi. I know some have come out(Martina N., Amelie, Rosie Jones{golf}, etc.) but they did so because they decide to live their lives instead of hiding behind a person the public thought they should be. Many others could come out but have to fear that they may lose something, it is a shame.

No Name Face
Feb 5th, 2007, 04:08 PM
What I find disturbing is that some athletes, famous or otherwise, feel they can not be true to themselves or the media or fans because they fear loss of sponsorships or being looked at like it is shameful to be gay or bi. I know some have come out(Martina N., Amelie, Rosie Jones{golf}, etc.) but they did so because they decide to live their lives instead of hiding behind a person the public thought they should be. Many others could come out but have to fear that they may lose something, it is a shame.

this is sad. if one of my favorite athletes were gay, it wouldn't matter to me at all. and i'm not just saying that. i guess i wasn't raised with hate for anyone, really. and i'm not really ultra-liberal. just rational.

there's so much i still need to respond to.