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View Full Version : How many Grand Slams would Monica Seles have won if she didn't get stabbed?


Wednesday
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:35 PM
I would say 18 because she won almost all the ones she entered until she was stabbed and she probably would have won way more during the 3 years she took off to recover and she never really returned to her best after despite winning just 1 GS after. I think if Seles wasn't stabbed she still could have been winning Grand Slams in the mid to late 90s.

What do you think?

sfselesfan
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:40 PM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/548/nocs0.gif

SF

SIN DIOS NI LEY
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:44 PM
21 GS and 120 tourneys in total

mirzalover
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:49 PM
I say 13 to 15 she most likely could have won at least the french in 93 maybe the U.S. So that is two more just from 93. Then she might would have won the Aussie and French or U.S and French in 94 so thats my Four extra grand slams for Monica. I dont know about 95 cause Mary was on Fire at the Aussie open she might could have won the French that year but I'm not sure

Geisha
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:55 PM
Well, I guess you can only go so far with this one. I mean, she probably would have won the '93 French Open, '93 US Open, and she was always good on rebound ace, so I'd give her the '94 Australian Open. Then maybe one more than year, two more the next, and one every other year until she reached the '98, '99, '00 power of the Davenports, Williamses, Capriatis.

So, she has nine in total. I'd give her eight more, for a total of 17.

switz
Jan 29th, 2007, 11:58 PM
wow do we really need to go here again? She probably would have won most but i doubt she would have got a Wimbledon title against the likes of Graf and Novotna.

Monica proved to be very injury prone after her comeback. Yes that was partly because she carried more weight but we can't presume that because she was the best player before the stabbing that nothing else was going to go wrong in her career if she had not been taken out so unfairly.

Basically there is no way to say with any accuracy whatsoever. Anybody with any objectivity knows that Seles would have a won a lot more slams than she did without the stabbing but the simple fact is that she got stabbed so she didn't. It's tragic, but it's life.

Wednesday
Jan 30th, 2007, 12:01 AM
If Monica had won 18 Grand Slams as I said I thought she could have she would have had more GS than Steffi Graf.

tennisfan5
Jan 30th, 2007, 12:53 AM
I say more than 17, (but you never know with injuries, obviously). Because of the stabbing, she ended up "peaking" at 19. She could have gotten better and better in the ensuing years. unfortunately, we'll never know

plantman
Jan 30th, 2007, 01:08 AM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/548/nocs0.gif

SF

your obedience is borderline.......OVERKILL!!!:lol: :lol:

tennisvideos
Jan 30th, 2007, 01:32 AM
I would have thought she could have reached at least 16 without stretching the imagination at all and could well have won more. Sad that we will never know. I just hope she's happy with life now and that is all that matters.

Veronique
Jan 30th, 2007, 01:40 AM
My mind refuses to go there. Way too painful!:-(

RJWCapriati
Jan 30th, 2007, 02:31 AM
19-20

silverarrows
Jan 30th, 2007, 02:40 AM
proly 18-20 GS

le bon vivant
Jan 30th, 2007, 02:43 AM
More than Graf, right?

Wednesday
Jan 30th, 2007, 02:50 AM
Yeah well I think Monica would have won 18 Grand Slams which would have made her have more GS than Graf.

More than Graf, right?

~Eclipsed~
Jan 30th, 2007, 03:03 AM
it seems like similiar threads like this make their appearance every so often.:rolleyes:

bello
Jan 30th, 2007, 03:15 AM
18

Hashim.
Jan 30th, 2007, 06:29 AM
18-25

sonnys
Jan 30th, 2007, 06:59 AM
She would have won 18 or more and wimbledon for sure!!!! Darn this shouldnt have happened!!! Agree more that graf for sure!!!

ce
Jan 30th, 2007, 07:01 AM
more than 20.she was so good:sad:

LondonSteve
Jan 30th, 2007, 08:25 AM
All Monica's fans know her history. I just wish Monica would raise her profle a bit. The greatest player of her age who changed women's tennis forever just seems content to fade away. I know some of her fans say that's her choice, but it's a shame for all of those who really followed her for years to see her fade away. I really hope she doesn't fall off the radar and become forgotten.

nsquare
Jan 30th, 2007, 08:29 AM
without the stabbing,she would hav certainly won french open and USO in 93 but after that, i dont know.But even with the stabbing, she still had chance to win many more slams.but she could sieze only 1 opportunity ( at ao 96 ).

Veritas
Jan 30th, 2007, 08:44 AM
Definitely in the double-digit range. Even though it was in 3 sets, Monica was way too ahead of Graf at the 1993 AO finals. She was fit and young - certainly had more room for improvement. We gotta remember, it wasn't just the 2 years she was out that went past her - Monica was robbed of those crucial years to further her game. Not only would we not know what could've been from '93 to '95; all the years after that could've been a different story.

Conservatively, I'd say she would've won 14 Slams (including a Wimbledon). I don't think she would've done a Golden Slam because Graf and an upcoming Hingis would've put a stop to it. But Monica certainly wouldn't be trailing with such a huge gap in important H2H records.

And despite her woeful Wimbledon record, I wouldn't rule her out for one. Before the stabbing, she had a 13-3 record. 4th round in 1989, QF in 1990 and a F in 1992. She wasn't bad on grass and her record proves she was on the verge of learning how to cope on the surface. Navratilova was past her prime, but it's still a big deal to beat her on Centre Court in London. 1994 would've been the best chance for her to win the title.

Miranda
Jan 30th, 2007, 08:47 AM
at least 15, and on reverse, graf would not won 22 ;)

i thought about this so many times with sadness, this question only faded away a few years ago :sad:

Shimizu Amon
Jan 30th, 2007, 08:48 AM
We will never know, now will we.....

orfeus
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:03 AM
...wonder how many GS titles I would have if I played tennis professionally:lol:

bionic71
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Pre stabbing she had won 7 of 8 consecutive GS final appearances (someone please correct that stat if slighty inaccurate).
She was only 19 at the time of the dreadful incident so I would speculate that she probably would have won at least 5 or 6 more with relative ease.
Beyond that it is hard to know.
Her stats pre stabbing are mighty impressive....I would not have been surprised to have seen her at least equal the Navratilova/Evert tally of 18....which would have in turn limited Garfs total wins (21).
Such a pity we will never know.

Princeza
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:08 AM
monica:sad: probably the double

Wednesday
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:10 AM
:sobbing:

LUXXXAS
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:26 AM
more than Graf!
~~~30

Veritas
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:36 AM
Pre stabbing she had won 7 of 8 consecutive GS final appearances (someone please correct that stat if slighty inaccurate).
She was only 19 at the time of the dreadful incident so I would speculate that she probably would have won at least 5 or 6 more with relative ease.
Beyond that it is hard to know.
Her stats pre stabbing are mighty impressive....I would not have been surprised to have seen her at least equal the Navratilova/Evert tally of 18....which would have in turn limited Garfs total wins (21).
Such a pity we will never know.

The fact there's such a huge difference between pre-stabbing and post-stabbing results says enough :fiery:

Example: Wimbledon. Monica reached the finals in only her 3rd attempt, something even Graf couldn't do. Yet after the stabbing, Monica never got past the quarters. She was clearly finding her feet on grass, and was robbed of the opportunity to continue her development :fiery: :sad:

denisgiann
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:54 AM
Monica in my opinion was the most amazing tennis talent in womens game:worship: .I voted probably 14 but with her that number may look small.

aussie12
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:56 AM
why is this topic brought up every month or so, it happened more than a decade ago and yes it was very unfortunate and really destroyed the career of possibly the greatest ever but we need to move on.

nsquare
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:00 AM
the very first tennis match that i watched on tv was the 92 RG final.wow, what a match it was!!!! both seles and graf were amazing champions.But their era is over now.Let's move on.

Chrissie-fan
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:38 AM
It's one of those big "what if's" in tennis history that's imposible to answer. How many majors would Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills have won if travel circumstances had made it possible in those days for them to play all (or at least more) of them? What if Maureen Connolly hadn't had that accident? How many more slams would Chris Evert have won if the French and Australian opens had been as important in the 70's as they are now and she had competed in all of them? Would Tracy Austin have won some of the slams that were won by Chris and Martina in the 80's if she hadn't had all of those injuries? What if Jennifer Capriati hadn't wasted what should have been the best years of her career?

What happened to Monica is a real tragedy, not only for the lady herself but for tennis as a whole. It robbed the world of what would have been one of the greatest rivalries in sports history. In a way it's even a tragedy for Steffi Graf, because it's impossible to say for sure who would have come out on top in the long run and I'm sure she would have preferred to battle it out on the tennis courts.

KBdoubleu
Jan 30th, 2007, 11:51 AM
I would say around 16...she was so great

Andy.
Jan 30th, 2007, 11:56 AM
18-25 probably

Talula
Jan 30th, 2007, 12:20 PM
...wonder how many GS titles would I have if I played tennis profesionally:lol:

But would you have won more than me if I had played professional tennis and I hadn't been mauled by a German Shepherd in the park and was out of action for a while?!

Steffica Greles won 31 Grand Slams in singles.

cherseles
Jan 30th, 2007, 01:16 PM
I miss you so much Monica!!!!

disposablehero
Oct 21st, 2010, 08:45 PM
I sim'd this years ago on a case by case basis. I think I came up with 19 for Monica and 17 for Steffi. Can't remember if I gave ASV 2 or 3.

justineheninfan
Oct 21st, 2010, 09:52 PM
I would have voted for 12. I think Monica would have won 5 total slams from 93 Australian Open- 96 Australian Open and 0 after the 96 Australian Open just as already was. I think Graf would have ended up with 21. Seles and Graf would have won nearly all the slams from the 93 Australian-96 Australian Open with Steffi winning 6, Monica 5, Sanchez Vicario 1, and Pierce 1. Since Steffi only won 7 during this period anyway it would make almost no difference to her final total.

LightWarrior
Oct 21st, 2010, 10:07 PM
I think Monica would have won 5 total slams from 93 Australian Open- 96 Australian Open and 0 after the 96 Australian Open just as already was.

Err why in hell ?

disposablehero
Oct 21st, 2010, 10:08 PM
Err why in hell ?
Because that is a number justineheninfan is willing to give.

jefrilibra
Oct 21st, 2010, 10:15 PM
I'd say at least 10 more and she would have surpassed Graf eventually.

I got into tennis cos of Seles and it took me quite a while then to get over that Hamburg stabbing!

justineheninfan
Oct 21st, 2010, 10:24 PM
Err why in hell ?

Maybe since she actually played all those years and that is all she actually won after that point. And this it was so easily understandable after what happened to her is BS. When she first returned to the tour there were huge predictions made for her and she didnt even come close to reaching those. Now these same people say you couldnt have expected anymore which is funny. In fact her best tennis of her comeback was by far her first 2 events back indicating a natural and gradual decline for a host of reasons. Ultimately in the second half of her career she simply wasnt good enough anymore. Anyhow:

1996- injured alot. Graf in top form and owning the tour.

1997 and early 1998- fathers illness a major distraction. Heaviest she ever was, inspite of that she was heavy in all her post stabbing years. Hingis also owning the tour this period. And missed 2 Australian Opens by a fluke injury (catching a ball wrong) and being with her dad the other.

Late 1998-beyond- bit hitters and bad matchup players for her have all emerged-Davenport, Hingis, Venus, Serena, and to lesser degree Pierce, adult Capriati, etc...Already past her prime. Bad eating habits, still overweight. Window closed.

LightWarrior
Oct 21st, 2010, 10:44 PM
Maybe since she actually played all those years and that is all she actually won after that point. And this it was so easily understandable after what happened to her is BS. When she first returned to the tour there were huge predictions made for her and she didnt even come close to reaching those. Now these same people say you couldnt have expected anymore which is funny. In fact her best tennis of her comeback was by far her first 2 events back indicating a natural and gradual decline for a host of reasons. Ultimately in the second half of her career she simply wasnt good enough anymore. Anyhow:

1996- injured alot. Graf in top form and owning the tour.

1997 and early 1998- fathers illness a major distraction. Heaviest she ever was, inspite of that she was heavy in all her post stabbing years. Hingis also owning the tour this period. And missed 2 Australian Opens by a fluke injury (catching a ball wrong) and being with her dad the other.

Late 1998-beyond- bit hitters and bad matchup players for her have all emerged-Davenport, Hingis, Venus, Serena, and to lesser degree Pierce, adult Capriati, etc...Already past her prime. Bad eating habits, still overweight. Window closed.

HAD SHE NOT BEEN STABBED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What are you rambling on about ? :help:

disposablehero
Oct 21st, 2010, 11:40 PM
I would have voted for 12. I think Monica would have won 5 total slams from 93 Australian Open- 96 Australian Open and 0 after the 96 Australian Open just as already was. I think Graf would have ended up with 21. Seles and Graf would have won nearly all the slams from the 93 Australian-96 Australian Open with Steffi winning 6, Monica 5, Sanchez Vicario 1, and Pierce 1. Since Steffi only won 7 during this period anyway it would make almost no difference to her final total.
"Only" won 7/10? Last I checked that was a lot better than 2/12. Steffi would have been lucky to win 4 of those 10 with Monica in the picture. Wimbledon aside, people seem to forget that at the time of Monica's attempted murder, she had won 3 straight Australian Opens, 3 straight Roland Garros, 2 straight US Opens, 3 straight Virginia Slims Championships. Oh, and 2 of the previous 3 Key Biscayne's if anyone is counting. Congrats to Steffi on that 92 Wimbledon though.

Volcana
Oct 21st, 2010, 11:59 PM
This is a difficult question because she would still be a person who ate under stress, so the weight gain was likely coming anyway. She could have been back on court in three months. She wasn't. So how would that emotional fragility have shown itself instead?

Pops Maellard
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:11 AM
Monica's choice ultimately how she handled the stabbing.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:22 AM
This is a difficult question because she would still be a person who ate under stress, so the weight gain was likely coming anyway. She could have been back on court in three months. She wasn't. So how would that emotional fragility have shown itself instead?
Was there a reputation for emotional fragility before this incident? Because I seem to recall the opposite.

goldenlox
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:27 AM
"Only" won 7/10? Last I checked that was a lot better than 2/12. Steffi would have been lucky to win 4 of those 10 with Monica in the picture. Wimbledon aside, people seem to forget that at the time of Monica's attempted murder, she had won 3 straight Australian Opens, 3 straight Roland Garros, 2 straight US Opens, 3 straight Virginia Slims Championships. Oh, and 2 of the previous 3 Key Biscayne's if anyone is counting. Congrats to Steffi on that 92 Wimbledon though.That sums it up pretty clearly. There was a dominant #1. Still 19.

RenaSlam.
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:32 AM
700.

Claycourter
Oct 22nd, 2010, 01:58 AM
Dumb thread. :rolleyes:

It's like saying "How many slams would Borg win if he didn't retire early".

Seles was not as great as her fans hype her to be. She was lucky to win 9 slams. In fact she was overrated. Steffi, in her slump thrashed her in Wimbledon, because Steffi was almost unbeatable even when slumping. When she regained her form, it doesn't matter, stabbing or not, Graf would still dominate effortlessly because she was that good. Seles' poor technique and one dimensional play would get badly exposed by Steffi's all court variety and on court genious. She was a player who had plan from A to Z, Seles only had plan A (hit the ball hard while shrieking). Steffi was a world class athlete, beautiful and strong. A perfect woman :worship: She didn't need cheap gimmicks to aid her in her wins, she glided effortlessly around the court, hitting winners at will, constructing points, using unmatched variety. Seles and the rest of the tour could only gasp in awe at her prowess. She had an effortless game, she was born for tennis. Seles would never ever beat prime Graf, she was her pigeon, ffs. Look at the H2H. The stabbing is the excuses Seles fans use to fuel their pathetic "what if" scenarios. It's getting irritating. Steffi is a goddess and all Seles worshipping clowns should show the respect she's due. Steffi is a best player of all time and a perfect and classy woman. Every mother should be proud of if her son brought a woman like Steffi home. She's all class.

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:19 AM
HAD SHE NOT BEEN STABBED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and I dont believe she would have won any slams after the 1996 Australian Open had she not been stabbed. You may not realize this but not everyone believes Seles was this alimighty god of tennis who was set to rule for a whole decade before the stabbing. You asked why I felt she wouldnt have and I answered in detail. End of.

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:22 AM
"Only" won 7/10? Last I checked that was a lot better than 2/12.

7/11. There were 11 slams played between the 2 Australian Opens. And yes it is only natural Graf would fare better when she wasnt losing to Novotna, granny Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, and Sabatini in slams regularly. Just like Seles would have fared better at Wimbledon if she could beat Studenikova, Testud, and Lucic more regularly.

Varelia
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:39 AM
Dumb thread. :rolleyes:

It's like saying "How many slams would Borg win if he didn't retire early".

Seles was not as great as her fans hype her to be. She was lucky to win 9 slams. In fact she was overrated. Steffi, in her slump thrashed her in Wimbledon, because Steffi was almost unbeatable even when slumping. When she regained her form, it doesn't matter, stabbing or not, Graf would still dominate effortlessly because she was that good. Seles' poor technique and one dimensional play would get badly exposed by Steffi's all court variety and on court genious. She was a player who had plan from A to Z, Seles only had plan A (hit the ball hard while shrieking). Steffi was a world class athlete, beautiful and strong. A perfect woman :worship: She didn't need cheap gimmicks to aid her in her wins, she glided effortlessly around the court, hitting winners at will, constructing points, using unmatched variety. Seles and the rest of the tour could only gasp in awe at her prowess. She had an effortless game, she was born for tennis. Seles would never ever beat prime Graf, she was her pigeon, ffs. Look at the H2H. The stabbing is the excuses Seles fans use to fuel their pathetic "what if" scenarios. It's getting irritating. Steffi is a goddess and all Seles worshipping clowns should show the respect she's due. Steffi is a best player of all time and a perfect and classy woman. Every mother should be proud of if her son brought a woman like Steffi home. She's all class.

She won against Steffi Graf only at Roland Garros and the Australian Open (slower surfaces) and the last two matches were 3-setters.
We never know if she would have beaten Graf at Roland Garros 1993/1995, Wimbledon 1993/1995, Australian Open 1994 or the US Opens of 93/94/95 or if she would have made those finals. She could also have lost against other players like a red-hot Mary Pierce at Roland Garros in the 1994 semis.
Past Success does not guarantee future performance.

mozz
Oct 22nd, 2010, 08:01 AM
This is typically human speculation. People tend to think that a trend a going to continue. Trend don't last forever. Things go up and down. If crime goes up 2 years in a row by 10 % it dosen't mean that crime will just explode in a couple of years. Things go up and down.
Looking a past competitive tennis (last 40 years of so) you see that players performances go up and down og up and down. That's the reason why nobody has been able to hold no.1 consecutively for more than about 3 years or so. For some reason it is hard for someone to maintain a peak level for longer than that. What constitutes the really good players are the ones who battles out the tough periods and bounce back to dominance again.

What would we have thought if Graf was stabbed in early 1990 or stabbed in late 1996. We would probably think that she would maintain that level for at least a couple more years.

Mephisto
Oct 22nd, 2010, 08:29 AM
definately less than Maureen Connolly. Using common and absurd Seles fans logic I'm convinced she would have won at least 16 consecutive grand slams. And with 25 to her name she would have been THE all time great. Try to prove me wrong ...

Matt01
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:36 PM
Dumb thread. :rolleyes:

It's like saying "How many slams would Borg win if he didn't retire early".

Seles was not as great as her fans hype her to be. She was lucky to win 9 slams. In fact she was overrated. Steffi, in her slump thrashed her in Wimbledon, because Steffi was almost unbeatable even when slumping. When she regained her form, it doesn't matter, stabbing or not, Graf would still dominate effortlessly because she was that good. Seles' poor technique and one dimensional play would get badly exposed by Steffi's all court variety and on court genious. She was a player who had plan from A to Z, Seles only had plan A (hit the ball hard while shrieking). Steffi was a world class athlete, beautiful and strong. A perfect woman :worship: She didn't need cheap gimmicks to aid her in her wins, she glided effortlessly around the court, hitting winners at will, constructing points, using unmatched variety. Seles and the rest of the tour could only gasp in awe at her prowess. She had an effortless game, she was born for tennis. Seles would never ever beat prime Graf, she was her pigeon, ffs. Look at the H2H. The stabbing is the excuses Seles fans use to fuel their pathetic "what if" scenarios. It's getting irritating. Steffi is a goddess and all Seles worshipping clowns should show the respect she's due. Steffi is a best player of all time and a perfect and classy woman. Every mother should be proud of if her son brought a woman like Steffi home. She's all class.


:weirdo:

Raiden
Oct 22nd, 2010, 12:57 PM
Less than 9 (i.e. less than what she has now) is also possible.

How? Cuz if there ever was a perfect world where stabbers didn't exist then it more than likely that Maffia blackmailers wouldn't have existed either.

And that inevitably means:

No Graf family Mafia blackmail scandal in 1990 >>> therefore no 9 slams for Monica from then onwards >>> therefore no WTA #1 ranking for Monica subsequently >>> therefore no urge by a crazy Steffi-tard to "update" the rankings by violent means

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 22nd, 2010, 01:12 PM
She might have won 2-3 more than she did. See, she was never the best mover out there, and made precious few changes to her game over the years, and there were several fitter and faster players in the mix at that time, who would have figured out how to beat her sooner or later. The fact that Graf endured well into the 90's with her game while Monica struggled to replicate the pre-stabbing form shows, IMO, that Monica needed significant additions to her game to win as regularly as she once did. And even Graf had a couple of seasons where she had injuries, struggled with consistent form, and didn't win nearly as much as during her early years.

goldenlox
Oct 22nd, 2010, 01:21 PM
She might have won 2-3 more than she did. ...Monica might have won 2-3 more before she turned 20, and plenty more in her 20's

Lucemferre
Oct 22nd, 2010, 01:37 PM
She might have won 2-3 more than she did. See, she was never the best mover out there, and made precious few changes to her game over the years, and there were several fitter and faster players in the mix at that time, who would have figured out how to beat her sooner or later. The fact that Graf endured well into the 90's with her game while Monica struggled to replicate the pre-stabbing form shows, IMO, that Monica needed significant additions to her game to win as regularly as she once did. And even Graf had a couple of seasons where she had injuries, struggled with consistent form, and didn't win nearly as much as during her early years.

:spit: Let meguess graf is your favorite?:tape:

mozz
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:27 PM
Seles 95 was great. She started off with a winning stat of 22-1 only losing to Graf.
She started of by winning Canadian Open losing just 14 games in those 5 matches. Last time she competed in canadian open was in 92 where she lost the final.

In 95 USopen she lost: 19 games prior to the final against Graf.
In 90 she lost in the third round.
In 91 she lost 33 games prior to the final
In 92 she lost 21 games prior to the final.

In 96 she won the AO losing a total of 35 games
In 91 she won the AO losing a total of 39 games
In 92 she won the AO losing a total of 40 games
In 93 She won the AO losing a total of 31 games.

Seles problem was that Graf was not letting the No.1 slip again and during 1996 the new generation of players began to arrive, and seles lost her confidence. Seles was beaten badly by Hingis. And Seles was never really a contender for the no.1 spot after 96.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:38 PM
Less than 9 (i.e. less than what she has now) is also possible.

How? Cuz if there ever was a perfect world where stabbers didn't exist then it more than likely that Maffia blackmailers wouldn't have existed either.

And that inevitably means:

No Graf family Mafia blackmail scandal in 1990 >>> therefore no 9 slams for Monica from then onwards >>> therefore no WTA #1 ranking for Monica subsequently >>> therefore no urge by a crazy Steffi-tard to "update" the rankings by violent means
I never know whether to laugh or be outraged by the BS Graf fans post. Except when it comes to the part about Monica's dominance being because Steffi's daddy banged a stripper. That one always makes me laugh.

mozz
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:40 PM
Seles problem was that Graf was not letting the No.1 slip again and during 1996 the new generation of players began to arrive, and seles lost her confidence. Seles was beaten badly by Hingis. And Seles was never really a contender for the no.1 spot after 96.

I also think it is telling that Seles didn't improve after her comeback. She was better in the first 4 month of her comeback than she was the rest of her post-stabbing career. She never got around on how to win against the new generation, which a injured Graf did.
Seles was like the first real bolletieri-power machine, But when she new powergeneration came it was game over. I don't think we will see a Doublehander dominate again like seles did.

I therefor think Seles only had a shot at winning GS titles from 93-96.
I can't see how she could have won Wimbledon. But injury free she would have been a strong contender for FO 93,94,95; UO: 93,94, and she probably would have won AO 94,95. My guess is 2-5 slams extra.

Claycourter
Oct 22nd, 2010, 02:58 PM
:spit: Let meguess graf is your favorite?:tape:

You don\'t need to be a fan of great Steffi to realize, she\'d still dominate after recovering from her slump and prevent Seles from winning a slam. Steffi was a beacon of light of 1990\'s tennis world. She adapted to pushers, grinders, power hitters and big servers, outplaying and outhinking them all. She was always there at the top with challengers trying hard to dethrone her in vain. Steffi was ultimate talent and extremely dedicated to the sport to understand how times change and changed her game accordingly. The game never passed her by by mid 90\'s, the way it passed Seles, she was still best player in the world, still crushing her own generation and young upstarts trying to take advantage of her beginning decline. Steffi revolutionized tennis with her all court game, paving way for greats like Justine Henin to pick up where she left off. She was an all court master, easily winning multiple career grand slams as well as golden slam, something that has NEVER EVER been done and never will be done in tennis. Watching her game was like watching a wizard waving his magic wand, she could do everything and no one could do it better than here. The way she steped into her inside out forehand, the footwork was phenomenal. Those wicked BH slices coming off the long forgotten one handed backhanded, usually discarded for power in the modern times. Every single shot she made was prepared in advance, she anticipated and read her opponent like a chess player, 10 moves in advance - that\'s why she was so hard to beat. She had an answer for everything and more. Even hater of Steffi Graf has to admit, she is a legend, a one of a kind, with grace, power and beauty rolled into one.

Seles on the other hand, paved the way for all the brainless ball bashing currently prevalent on the WTA tour. She grunted, she muscled the ball. Her technique was so freaking ugly to watch, it was unreal (double fisted forehand... wtf?). She played a brand of anti-tennis. All out power, bad movement, power hitting that gave rise to brainless ball bashers like Williams sisters, Sharapova and about 90% of the current tour. I am not surprised that this brand of tennis caught on, because no one is as talented a Steffi so the game she played was impossible to master. In any case, Seles took advantage of Steffi\'s slump (caused by non tennis related problems) to bash through her competition unused to such brutal tactics and single minded aggression. Even in her slump courageous Stefanie absolutely obliterated the shrieker in the temple of tennis, Wimbledon with an embarrassing scoreline. It was a sad day for tennis, when the supposed all time great got routined like a challenger. After her stabbing incident, Seles failed to mount a comeback, a sign of mental fragility, which comes as a surptise considering how touted she was for her mental toughness. She won only one slam and Steffi was rightfully queen of tennis where she belonged. Seles failed to adapt to new emerging power game, she was outgrinded, outhit and outmanuvered. Everyone took advantage of her poor movement and fitness and her power was nothing special in those later days. Steffi still dominated, she wasn\'t bothered by power as she could redirect it at will and strike clean winners off both wings - all aided by her supreme footwork. Seles is probably the most overrated player of all time. Comparing her to great Steffi is absolutely insulting and I have a feeling that most people who draw such a comparison are not fans of the game, but merely fanbois of Seles. It\'s really sad day when Steffi retired, tennis lost a legend that day and not a single player can be considered her equal.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 03:07 PM
You don\'t need to be a fan of great Steffi to realize, she\'d still dominate after recovering from her slump and prevent Seles from winning a slam. Steffi was a beacon of light of 1990\'s tennis world. She adapted to pushers, grinders, power hitters and big servers, outplaying and outhinking them all. She was always there at the top with challengers trying hard to dethrone her in vain. Steffi was ultimate talent and extremely dedicated to the sport to understand how times change and changed her game accordingly. The game never passed her by by mid 90\'s, the way it passed Seles, she was still best player in the world, still crushing her own generation and young upstarts trying to take advantage of her beginning decline. Steffi revolutionized tennis with her all court game, paving way for greats like Justine Henin to pick up where she left off. She was an all court master, easily winning multiple career grand slams as well as golden slam, something that has NEVER EVER been done and never will be done in tennis. Watching her game was like watching a wizard waving his magic wand, she could do everything and no one could do it better than here. The way she steped into her inside out forehand, the footwork was phenomenal. Those wicked BH slices coming off the long forgotten one handed backhanded, usually discarded for power in the modern times. Every single shot she made was prepared in advance, she anticipated and read her opponent like a chess player, 10 moves in advance - that\'s why she was so hard to beat. She had an answer for everything and more. Even hater of Steffi Graf has to admit, she is a legend, a one of a kind, with grace, power and beauty rolled into one.

Seles on the other hand, paved the way for all the brainless ball bashing currently prevalent on the WTA tour. She grunted, she muscled the ball. Her technique was so freaking ugly to watch, it was unreal (double fisted forehand... wtf?). She played a brand of anti-tennis. All out power, bad movement, power hitting that gave rise to brainless ball bashers like Williams sisters, Sharapova and about 90% of the current tour. I am not surprised that this brand of tennis caught on, because no one is as talented a Steffi so the game she played was impossible to master. In any case, Seles took advantage of Steffi\'s slump (caused by non tennis related problems) to bash through her competition unused to such brutal tactics and single minded aggression. Even in her slump courageous Stefanie absolutely obliterated the shrieker in the temple of tennis, Wimbledon with an embarrassing scoreline. It was a sad day for tennis, when the supposed all time great got routined like a challenger. After her stabbing incident, Seles failed to mount a comeback, a sign of mental fragility, which comes as a surptise considering how touted she was for her mental toughness. She won only one slam and Steffi was rightfully queen of tennis where she belonged. Seles failed to adapt to new emerging power game, she was outgrinded, outhit and outmanuvered. Everyone took advantage of her poor movement and fitness and her power was nothing special in those later days. Steffi still dominated, she wasn\'t bothered by power as she could redirect it at will and strike clean winners off both wings - all aided by her supreme footwork. Seles is probably the most overrated player of all time. Comparing her to great Steffi is absolutely insulting and I have a feeling that most people who draw such a comparison are not fans of the game, but merely fanbois of Seles. It\'s really sad day when Steffi retired, tennis lost a legend that day and not a single player can be considered her equal.

Don't have the guts to bash Monica with your real account?

*JR*
Oct 22nd, 2010, 03:24 PM
...

Hi, "Calimero II". :tape: Anyhow, I loved Steffi's game, but Monica (though I personally don't care for grunting) had a beautiful game in a different way. For example, the use of angles expanded the amount of territory her opponents had to defend; she added a big "horizontal dimension" to the mostly vertical game today's ballbashers use. The two handed FH isn't some magic potion, or Irena Pavlovic (http://www.wtatour.com/player/irena-pavlovic_2257889_11981/0,,12781,00.html) would be successful for example, but it worked well for Monica.

Winning the singles titles in 8 of her last 11 "pre-Hamburg" Slams speaks for itself. :worship:

Lucemferre
Oct 22nd, 2010, 03:26 PM
Don't have the guts to bash Monica with your real account?

:lol:

JackFrost
Oct 22nd, 2010, 03:47 PM
For what I care, the Seles fans can follow their alternate reality, where 1993 never happend, where Seles has won 20-30 grand slams (or 17 or 40 or how much you want) and where she trashed Graf in every match 6:0 6:0 and where she hold for 520 weeks in a row the number 1 spot. It´s nice to have dreams, even if they are just that. ;)

tennis-insomniac
Oct 22nd, 2010, 03:49 PM
My mind refuses to go there. Way too painful!:-(

me too :sobbing:

Kworb
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:03 PM
She would have won about 32 Grand Slam singles titles, including calendar year Grand Slams in 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

n1_and_uh_noone
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:04 PM
Seles problem was that Graf was not letting the No.1 slip again and during 1996 the new generation of players began to arrive, and seles lost her confidence. Seles was beaten badly by Hingis. And Seles was never really a contender for the no.1 spot after 96.

I also think it is telling that Seles didn't improve after her comeback. She was better in the first 4 month of her comeback than she was the rest of her post-stabbing career. She never got around on how to win against the new generation, which a injured Graf did.

I therefor think Seles only had a shot at winning GS titles from 93-96.
I can't see how she could have won Wimbledon. But injury free she would have been a strong contender for FO 93,94,95; UO: 93,94, and she probably would have won AO 94,95. My guess is 2-5 slams extra.

Agree with everything here. Of course, you can argue that if Seles had won those other Slams, other players may never have emerged as champions, but Steffi had dominated anyway, so...

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:09 PM
For what I care, the Seles fans can follow their alternate reality, where 1993 never happend, where Seles has won 20-30 grand slams (or 17 or 40 or how much you want) and where she trashed Graf in every match 6:0 6:0 and where she hold for 520 weeks in a row the number 1 spot. It´s nice to have dreams, even if they are just that. ;)
It must be nice to dream that Steffi's miraculous improvement had nothing to do with her level of opposition.

JackFrost
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:18 PM
It must be nice to dream that Steffi's miraculous improvement had nothing to do with her level of opposition.
Yeah, well. You can write that in every book of tennis history, where Steffi Grafs archivments are praised. Come back, when you are done and don´t get caught by angry library clerks in the meantime. :wavey:

pascal77
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:25 PM
18-20 slams.

Raiden
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:31 PM
I never know whether to laugh or be outraged by the BS Graf fans post. Except when it comes to the part about Monica's dominance being because Steffi's daddy banged a stripper. I'm afraid it is irrelevant how you spin it and talk about banging or shagging or having a bit of the old in-out or whatever damn filthy language you use. The only thing that remains relevant are the facts. And the facts are that Monica profited exactly after the Graf scandal broke out. End of story.

Oh and I'm not sure where you get the silly idea that I was a Graf fan. I am not. A graf fan wouldn't be sympathetic to the idea that Margaret Court was indeed the GOAT. Neither was I a Seles fan. Believe it or not some of us are just content and satisfied to be loyal to the facts. Just the cold hard facts.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:32 PM
Yeah, well. You can write that in every book of tennis history, where Steffi Grafs archivments are praised. Come back, when you are done and don´t get caught by angry library clerks in the meantime. :wavey:
I don't need to, it's already written there. Look at the bottom of the page there will be an explanation of the asterisk.

Raiden
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:34 PM
Let's go back in time, shall we?

It was exactly during May 1990 that the blackmail news broke out and exactly from that moment on (not a moment sooner or later) Steffi became shaky and lost her edge and in fact she lost matches she was expected to win easily beforehand. That's it! Steffi was no longer Steffi and basically lost the plot to a certain extent. You can sit in your basement and squeal and snivel that it shouldn't have affected her bla bla bla... but that is simply irrelevant. The only thing that counts is that a) evil stuff happened and b) she was affected (or if you will she allowed it to affect her - it doesn't really matter how you put it. Only thing that matters is that the things happened as they happened.

By the way what affected Steffi as much as the actual scandal and subsequent investigation was that she became a German tabloid harrassment target the moment the matter became public. All of this is a known and widely publicised and reported matter in the press AT THAT TIME. That's it! Those are the verifiable facts and unfortunately for some facts do NOT accommodate ideal fantasy scenarios conjured up in hindsight by two-bit tards most of whom were either not conceived or stuffed in diapers when all of this was happening.

JackFrost
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:38 PM
I don't need to, it's already written there. Look at the bottom of the page there will be an explanation of the asterisk.
You ´re right. There is it.
Footnote 1 on the biography of Stefanie Maria Graf: "Her opponents were plain shit except Miss Seles."
Man, you just corrected history. Thank you. ;)

pascal77
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:40 PM
Let's go back in time, shall we?

It was exactly during May 1990 that the blackmail news broke out and exactly from that moment on (not a moment sooner or later) Steffi became shaky and lost her edge and in fact she lost matches she was expected to win easily beforehand. That's it! Steffi was no longer Steffi and basically lost the plot to a certain extent. You can sit in you basement and squeal and snivel that it shouldn't have affected her but that is simply irrelevant. The only thing that counts is that a) evil stuff happened and b) she was affected (or if you will she allowed it to affect her - it doesn't really matter how you put it. Only thing that matters is that the things happened as they happened.

By the way what affected Steffi as much as the actual scandal and subsequent investigation was that she became a German tabloid harrassment target the moment the matter became public. All of this is a known and widely publicised and reported matter in the press AT THAT TIME. That's it! Those are the verifiable facts and unfortunately for some facts do NOT accommodate ideal fantasy scenarios conjured up in hindsight by two-bit tards most of whom were either not conceived or stuffed in diapers when all of this was happening.
no player plays tennis in vacuum. such a poor excuse, why not find something new for a change, such as Graf was suffering the advanced cancer?

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:40 PM
She would have won about 32 Grand Slam singles titles, including calendar year Grand Slams in 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

Yes and Dementieva has won 50 slams already. Then someone pinches you and you wake up from your dream.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:40 PM
I'm afraid it is irrelevant how you spin it and talk about banging or shagging or having a bit of the old in-out or whatever damn filthy language you use. The only thing that remains relevant are the facts. And the facts are that Monica profited exactly after the Graf scandal broke out. End of story.

Oh and I'm not sure where you get the silly idea that I was a Graf fan. I am not. A graf fan wouldn't be sympathetic to the idea that Margaret Court was indeed the GOAT. Neither was I a Seles fan. Believe it or not some of us are just content and satisfied to be loyal to the facts. Just the cold hard facts.
Bottom line was one player had a 66 match winning streak and one had a 23 match winning streak. They stood across the net from each other and someone lost.

pascal77
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:47 PM
Yes and Dementieva has won 50 slams already. Then someone pinches you and you wake up from your dream.

So, dont you think you should wake up from your dream that Graf was not beneficial from that stabbing and she was as innocent as a lamp? take a close look at yourself before pointing your fingers to others :o :lol:

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:49 PM
So, dont you think you should wake up from your dream that Graf was not beneficial from that stabbing and she was as innocent as a lamp? take a close look at yourself before pointing your fingers to others :o :lol:

So what are you now doing, accusing Graf of helping the plot the stabbing as if she were Tonya Harding. You really need some professional help. :tape:

LDVTennis
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:51 PM
She would have won about 32 Grand Slam singles titles, including calendar year Grand Slams in 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1996.

Actually, I have Seles wining 38 majors by the end of 2000, with calendar-year Grand Slams in 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000.

She retired at the beginning of 2008. So, if she kept up the same pace over the last 7 years of her career, add another 28 majors for a total of 66 majors.

Yeah, 66 majors seems about right.

Lucemferre
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:54 PM
Let's go back in time, shall we?

It was exactly during May 1990 that the blackmail news broke out and exactly from that moment on (not a moment sooner or later) Steffi became shaky and lost her edge and in fact she lost matches she was expected to win easily beforehand. That's it! Steffi was no longer Steffi and basically lost the plot to a certain extent. You can sit in your basement and squeal and snivel that it shouldn't have affected her bla bla bla... but that is simply irrelevant. The only thing that counts is that a) evil stuff happened and b) she was affected (or if you will she allowed it to affect her - it doesn't really matter how you put it. Only thing that matters is that the things happened as they happened.

By the way what affected Steffi as much as the actual scandal and subsequent investigation was that she became a German tabloid harrassment target the moment the matter became public. All of this is a known and widely publicised and reported matter in the press AT THAT TIME. That's it! Those are the verifiable facts and unfortunately for some facts do NOT accommodate ideal fantasy scenarios conjured up in hindsight by two-bit tards most of whom were either not conceived or stuffed in diapers when all of this was happening.

So Seles was a transitional player who benefitted from that and graf would've recovered anyway?Is that your message? :lol:

pancake
Oct 22nd, 2010, 04:56 PM
It still baffles how come the so-called Seles' fans bring out the stabbing tradegy again and again. I mean if you do love her so much, why bring up such bad memories so many times for your favorite player? What would she probably think? Yes you may be saying that she could have been the greatest player forever but to prove that you have to remind her of what happened, the tragedy.

pascal77
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:04 PM
So it's really hard for Graf's fans to be constantly reminded how Graf took advantage of Seles's absence to become so-caled winner of most slams? But the thing is this tragedy is just out there and will be there as the ugliest part of tennis history.

Matt01
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:07 PM
Let's go back in time, shall we?

It was exactly during May 1990 that the blackmail news broke out and exactly from that moment on (not a moment sooner or later) Steffi became shaky and lost her edge and in fact she lost matches she was expected to win easily beforehand. That's it! Steffi was no longer Steffi and basically lost the plot to a certain extent. You can sit in your basement and squeal and snivel that it shouldn't have affected her bla bla bla... but that is simply irrelevant. The only thing that counts is that a) evil stuff happened and b) she was affected (or if you will she allowed it to affect her - it doesn't really matter how you put it. Only thing that matters is that the things happened as they happened.

By the way what affected Steffi as much as the actual scandal and subsequent investigation was that she became a German tabloid harrassment target the moment the matter became public. All of this is a known and widely publicised and reported matter in the press AT THAT TIME. That's it! Those are the verifiable facts and unfortunately for some facts do NOT accommodate ideal fantasy scenarios conjured up in hindsight by two-bit tards most of whom were either not conceived or stuffed in diapers when all of this was happening.


At which point did she recover from that terrible blackmail scandal? And why?

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:10 PM
So what are you now doing, accusing Graf of helping the plot the stabbing as if she were Tonya Harding. You really need some professional help. :tape:
"Freeze Monica's ranking? I vote no."

Raiden
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:14 PM
So Seles was a transitional player who benefitted from that and graf would've recovered anyway?Is that your message? Nope. I don't have that kind of selective and therefore inevitably meaningless and absurd woulda/coulda/shoulda-message.

In fact I don't have ANY woulda/coulda/shoulda-message at all. I am content knowing the facts as they are, which is that among others, Sabatini AND Navratilova AND above all Monica profited directly when Steffi was down. Needless to say the roles were reversed in dramatic fashion a few years later and the profiteer became a "profitee". Those are the cold hard facts. That's it and that's all there is to it as far as I am concerned.

Lucemferre
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:24 PM
It still baffles how come the so-called Seles' fans bring out the stabbing tradegy again and again. I mean if you do love her so much, why bring up such bad memories so many times for your favorite player? What would she probably think? Yes you may be saying that she could have been the greatest player forever but to prove that you have to remind her of what happened, the tragedy.

She doesn't read this forum get real :lol:

Lucemferre
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:29 PM
Nope. I don't have that kind of selective and therefore inevitably meaningless and absurd woulda/coulda/shoulda-message.

In fact I don't have ANY woulda/coulda/shoulda-message at all. I am content knowing the facts as they are, which is that among others, Sabatini AND Navratilova AND above all Monica profited directly when Steffi was down. Needless to say the roles were reversed in dramatic fashion a few years later and the profiteer became a "profitee". Those are the cold hard facts. That's it and that's all there is to it as far as I am concerned.

I get a seles got what she deserved kind of message from your passive aggresive posts.Whatever graf's problem was,it wasnt even close to what happened to seles. If you want to be shallow and pretend there is nothing besides numbers, it's your choice.Some of us want to discuss the possibilities,there is more to life than numbers.

LDVTennis
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:31 PM
"Freeze Monica's ranking? I vote no."

Idiot. Steffi wasn't even there when the vote was taken to freeze Monica's ranking.

By your twisted logic, Sanchez-Vicario was in on the plot. She did vote no.

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 05:51 PM
"Freeze Monica's ranking? I vote no."

24 of the 25 who voted, all voted No. Monica's future close buddy Navratilova voted No, as did her close friends on tour Capriati and Fernandez. And of course they would, the idea of freezing Monica's ranking would have been absurd for a whole host of reasons:

1. Who knows when Monica was going to return. What if she returned in 2000, should she have still been ranked #1 at that point. :lol: Sorry Venus, Davenport, and Hingis, you cant bid for #1 since a player who was stabbed 7 years ago had her ranking frozen and hasnt returned yet.

2. Again not knowing when she was going to return the idea of having a long time inactive player over active everyday players ranked #1 is ridiculous. It would be an embrassment for the tour.

3. There was also no gaurantee of her having kept her #1 ranking she continued to play. Navratilova lost #1 in 1985 (although got it back at years end) after years in 1983 and 1984 far more dominant than Monica's in 1991 and 1992. So why should the others just concede this to her.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 06:01 PM
24 of the 25 who voted, all voted No. Monica's future close buddy Navratilova voted No, as did her close friends on tour Capriati and Fernandez. And of course they would, the idea of freezing Monica's ranking would have been absurd for a whole host of reasons:

1. Who knows when Monica was going to return. What if she returned in 2000, should she have still been ranked #1 at that point. :lol: Sorry Venus, Davenport, and Hingis, you cant bid for #1 since a player who was stabbed 7 years ago had her ranking frozen and hasnt returned yet.

2. Again not knowing when she was going to return the idea of having a long time inactive player over active everyday players ranked #1 is ridiculous. It would be an embrassment for the tour.

3. There was also no gaurantee of her having kept her #1 ranking she continued to play. Navratilova lost #1 in 1985 (although got it back at years end) after years in 1983 and 1984 far more dominant than Monica's in 1991 and 1992. So why should the others just concede this to her.
Because she earned it.

*JR*
Oct 22nd, 2010, 06:14 PM
I think that both Monica and Steffi would be embarrassed @ how the other is trashed ITT, something which never happens re. Chrissie vs. Martina I, BJK vs. Court, Sampras vs. Agassi, McEnroe vs. Borg and then Lendl, etc. (BTW, with all respect to Court, 11 of her record 24 Slam singles titles were won in Oz @ a time many top players did not make the long flight to her homeland)

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________

Raiden
Oct 22nd, 2010, 06:17 PM
Whatever graf's problem was,it wasnt even close to what happened to seles.Irrelevant.

Nothing has to be "close to what happened to seles" in order to have an effect on a player. Tennis players are humans and not some kind of robots or Monica clones that are pre-programmed to be affected by something exactly in some specific manner that is allegedly "close to what happened to seles".

If you want to be shallow and pretend there is nothing besides numbers, it's your choice.Some of us want to discuss the possibilities,there is more to life than numbers.I'm discussing events. What are you talking about? What numbers did I mention?

LDVTennis
Oct 22nd, 2010, 06:55 PM
24 of the 25 who voted, all voted No. Monica's future close buddy Navratilova voted No, as did her close friends on tour Capriati and Fernandez. And of course they would, the idea of freezing Monica's ranking would have been absurd for a whole host of reasons:

1. Who knows when Monica was going to return. What if she returned in 2000, should she have still been ranked #1 at that point. :lol: Sorry Venus, Davenport, and Hingis, you cant bid for #1 since a player who was stabbed 7 years ago had her ranking frozen and hasnt returned yet.

2. Again not knowing when she was going to return the idea of having a long time inactive player over active everyday players ranked #1 is ridiculous. It would be an embrassment for the tour.

3. There was also no gaurantee of her having kept her #1 ranking she continued to play. Navratilova lost #1 in 1985 (although got it back at years end) after years in 1983 and 1984 far more dominant than Monica's in 1991 and 1992. So why should the others just concede this to her.

You left out perhaps the most important reason. It was about money. There were bonuses associated with rankings just as there are now, there were opportunities to earn more prize money by having a higher seed at tournaments, and there was even money to be earned while the opportunity still existed for defeating an active versus an inactive No. 1. When 24 of the 25 voted no, those 24 were primarily looking out for their financial welfare.

Everyone does that. Monica did that when she strung out the end of her career. She was effectively retired for years, but she never made the announcement and even kept hinting to her fans that she planned to return because her endorsement contracts (most of them) would only continue paying her if she were an active player.

disposablehero
Oct 22nd, 2010, 07:07 PM
I for one am going to quit butting heads with this lunatic fringe for the time being. The original poll shows that less than 18% of respondents believe Monica would have won less than 14 Slams. So clearly it is a bitter, jealous few trying to discredit Monica. Good day.

justineheninfan
Oct 22nd, 2010, 07:51 PM
The original poll shows that less than 18% of respondents believe Monica would have won less than 14 Slams.

Considering over half the posters here believe Serena and Seles both rank in the top 5 all time ahead of Court, King, Connolly, Lenglen, and Wills Moody, and many posters here even believe Serena is the greatest ever with less than 40 tour titles, this hardly mean much in the context of reality. :lol:

The Witch-king
Oct 22nd, 2010, 07:55 PM
How many did Steffi win after Monica was stabbed
There lies the answer

+

The one Gabby Suckatini won

The Witch-king
Oct 22nd, 2010, 07:57 PM
Considering over half the posters here believe Serena and Seles both rank in the top 5 all time ahead of Court, King, Connolly, Lenglen, and Wills Moody, and many posters here even believe Serena is the greatest ever with less than 40 tour titles, this hardly mean much in the context of reality. :lol:

I dont even know who these people are they cant have been very good

LDVTennis
Oct 22nd, 2010, 08:07 PM
Considering over half the posters here believe Serena and Seles both rank in the top 5 all time ahead of Court, King, Connolly, Lenglen, and Wills Moody, and many posters here even believe Serena is the greatest ever with less than 40 tour titles, this hardly mean much in the context of reality. :lol:

Over on tenniswarehouse, there is some guy who is trying to argue that Seles would have kept Steffi from completing the Grand Slam in 1988. Imagine that. That takes these "what if" arguments to a new level.

If Steffi's Golden Slam isn't safe, how long before Seles-tards start claiming every major won by Court, Connolly, and Wills-Moody as their own.

After all, all those gals playing with wood racquets were not nearly as powerful as Seles with her oversized, graphite frame.

Suggestion for next poll: How many Grand Slams would Monica Seles have won if she were not stabbed and if she were timeless and eternal? :lol:

tkutsaar
Oct 22nd, 2010, 10:10 PM
I believe the better question in this kind of speculation would be how many slams would Maureen Connolly have won. She entered and played in eleven (11) slams. She did not win the first two slams (both USO) that she played in, but won the remaining nine including four in 1953 being the first woman to win the grand slam in same year (since duplicated only by Margaret Court and Steffi). Her career ended as a result of a horseback riding accident which crushed her right leg. She obviously would have won a hell a lot more slams had it not been for the accident; but the accident happened and so she did not win any more slams.

Sammo
Oct 23rd, 2010, 12:30 AM
I don't know... 14 maybe? whatever... people usually don't realize how lucky she was... of course things would have been better if she hadn't been stabbed, but come on!!!!!! The most likely thing to have happened was her being killed! Like getting stabbed and getting a minor injury isn't being lucky

disposablehero
Oct 23rd, 2010, 12:31 AM
How many did Steffi win after Monica was stabbed
There lies the answer

+

The one Gabby Suckatini won
Umm, Gabriela was wonderful. She won her only Slam at the 1990 US Open, and had already gone considerably downhill when Monica was stabbed.

pascal77
Oct 23rd, 2010, 12:59 AM
The poll results speak itself.:lol:

justineheninfan
Oct 23rd, 2010, 01:02 AM
Umm, Gabriela was wonderful. She won her only Slam at the 1990 US Open, and had already gone considerably downhill when Monica was stabbed.

If she was so great why did she win only 1 slam, the same # of slams as even Conchita Martinez managed. Remember this is an era Sanchez Vicario won 4 slams. She was a pretty women with some talent, but she ultimately didnt have the firepower, athletic ability, weaponary, or mental toughness and hunger to overcome Graf, Seles, Navratilova (even an old one), or even Sanchez Vicario.

And it is not like the Seles stabbing would have helped her much or any no matter what form she was in. She has a lifetime record of 1-11 vs Graf in slams, and even during her dream stretch of winning 7 of 8 against Steffi lost their only slam meeting at Wimbledon 91. She didnt win any slams before Monica first became a force in 1990 either.

QuietPlease
Nov 1st, 2010, 11:21 PM
It might have been like this:

Chris 18
Martina 18
Steffi 18
Monica 18

:lol:

faboozadoo15
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:04 AM
It might have been like this:

Chris 18
Martina 18
Steffi 18
Monica 18

:lol:

Interesting-- So Steffi -4; Monica +9, Hingis?, Pierce?, Majoli?, ASV?, Conchi?

QuietPlease
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:25 AM
Interesting-- So Steffi -4; Monica +9, Hingis?, Pierce?, Majoli?, ASV?, Conchi?
It was a bit of a joke really, but yeah maybe one from each of those 5.
Or maybe 2 from ASV instead of Hingis. Maybe she could even have kept it going and taken one from Novotna/Davenport/Williams too?

4 x 18 isn't that far out really :)

Claycourter
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:38 AM
No more than 10, ffs. She wasnt even that great. Her stabbing was overrated and an excuse blind fans use in their what if scenarios. Might I remind you all that she played in an era of great Steffi Graf, who was the best player of all time and it was almost impossible to win a slam in her era because Steffi could make anyone look like a clown on court, Seles included (see Wimbledon 1992). Steffi was a supreme athlete, supreme player, she was in god mode in mid 90s and overweight, butter addicted Seles had nothing on her, it was no comparison. Steffi glided around the court like a ballerina with no wasted movement, top notch anticipation and blasted winners at will from anywhere on the court. Seles looked like she was moving in slow motion even when she was running, it was embarrassing to watch, she basically set the trend for all the overweight ball bashers on the tour day. She had her 2 years of glory, beating clowns, when Steffi had bad back and personal problems, but it all came to an end soon enough. 22 slams. 10-5 H2H.

Matt01
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:43 AM
Steffi glided around the court like a ballerina with no wasted movement, top notch anticipation and blasted winners at will from anywhere on the court.


Yeah, that backhand was truly devastating :hearts:

The Dawntreader
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:44 AM
It's impossible to know.

It's like saying how many fine works of art would Van Gogh had made had he been born with no arms.

aisha
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:45 AM
No more than 10, ffs. She wasnt even that great. Her stabbing was overrated and an excuse blind fans use in their what if scenarios. Might I remind you all that she played in an era of great Steffi Graf, who was the best player of all time and it was almost impossible to win a slam in her era because Steffi could make anyone look like a clown on court, Seles included (see Wimbledon 1992). Steffi was a supreme athlete, supreme player, she was in god mode in mid 90s and overweight, butter addicted Seles had nothing on her, it was no comparison. Steffi glided around the court like a ballerina with no wasted movement, top notch anticipation and blasted winners at will from anywhere on the court. Seles looked like she was moving in slow motion even when she was running, it was embarrassing to watch, she basically set the trend for all the overweight ball bashers on the tour day. She had her 2 years of glory, beating clowns, when Steffi had bad back and personal problems, but it all came to an end soon enough. 22 slams. 10-5 H2H.


If it happens to you, would you sing that same tune then? :help:

hingis-seles
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:48 AM
Steffi couldn't have been all that great considering she dominated in such a weak era. As you have already established, all her competitors were "clowns" who couldn't play for shit. That really doesn't say much for Steffi - anyone can dominate against a bunch of talentless pretenders.

Claycourter
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:51 AM
Yeah, that backhand was truly devastating :hearts:

Steffis one handed backhand was a thing of beauty, the biting slice she possessed was one of the devastating shots in tennis history, especially on grass. The only reason people insult her BH is because her forehand is the greatest shot of all time, her BH is merely magnificent. She favored slice BH in later stages in her career but she could hit amazing topspin backhands as well. Seriously, every shot in the book, Steffi could do it and do it with grace and cat-like agility, while Seles stumbled around the court muscling the ball with her double fisted forehand and backhand. No wonder she could not win Wimbledon, zero variety in her game :o Steffi is the master of all surfaces (back when they werent homogenized btw, grass was piercing fast, clay was ultra slow) and was head and shoulders above her peers, you only needed to see a single match of hers live to understand that her tennis was magic and that player like her will not come about in several centuries.

Matt01
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:56 AM
Steffis one handed backhand was a thing of beauty, the biting slice she possessed was one of the devastating shots in tennis history, especially on grass. The only reason people insult her BH is because her forehand is the greatest shot of all time, her BH is merely magnificent. She favored slice BH in later stages in her career but she could hit amazing topspin backhands as well. Seriously, every shot in the book, Steffi could do it and do it with grace and cat-like agility, while Seles stumbled around the court muscling the ball with her double fisted forehand and backhand. No wonder she could not win Wimbledon, zero variety in her game :o Steffi is the master of all surfaces (back when they werent homogenized btw, grass was piercing fast, clay was ultra slow) and was head and shoulders above her peers, you only needed to see a single match of hers live to understand that her tennis was magic and that player like her will not come about in several centuries.


1. Since when does winning Wimbledon tell us anything about variety? Seles in her prime won the biggest tournaments on clay (RG), on rebound ace (AO), decoturf (USO) and carpet (YEC). I see lots of variety there.

2. I saw Steffi play live lots of times, thanks. Very nice but there are more graceful players than her to watch.

justineheninfan
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:08 AM
Goolagong and Mandlikova were the most graceful players ever. Perhaps Bueno as well.

justineheninfan
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:10 AM
Steffi couldn't have been all that great considering she dominated in such a weak era. As you have already established, all her competitors were "clowns" who couldn't play for shit. That really doesn't say much for Steffi - anyone can dominate against a bunch of talentless pretenders.

Graf wouldnt have won as many slams in this era. The only players who gave her any trouble besides Sanchez and to a minor degree Sabatini were the huge power players who could rush her and attack her more defensive backhand but hardly any existed in her day- Seles, Pierce on a good day, Davenport when she began to get fit. Maybe not so much today but earlier in this decade the game as full of those kinds of players though.

hingis-seles
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:23 AM
Considering over half the posters here believe Serena and Seles both rank in the top 5 all time ahead of Court, King, Connolly, Lenglen, and Wills Moody, and many posters here even believe Serena is the greatest ever with less than 40 tour titles, this hardly mean much in the context of reality. :lol:

"I marveled at how happy she seemed on and off the court, I marveled at the great relationship she had with her dad. And then with the stabbing and her father's death, her life turned upside-down… She's come out of it all with a lot of dignity, learned some hard lessons, but has had a lot of grace throughout all these episodes. She could have won 10 more Grand Slam events. I think she was robbed, shortchanged in the tennis department, but it helped her personally. She grew up and found herself and became a better person because of it."
- Chris Evert (http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/Player/Info/0,,12781~2188,00.html)


We can add Chris Evert to the list of lunatics who's opinion doesn't mean much in the context of reality.

http://www.wtatour.com/page/OffCourtNews/Read/0,,12781~2064951,00.html

hingis-seles
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:25 AM
Graf wouldnt have won as many slams in this era. The only players who gave her any trouble besides Sanchez and to a minor degree Sabatini were the huge power players who could rush her and attack her more defensive backhand but hardly any existed in her day- Seles, Pierce on a good day, Davenport when she began to get fit. Maybe not so much today but earlier in this decade the game as full of those kinds of players though.

Graf would not have won as many Slams in this era, but she would have been an all-time great regardless of which era she played in. My previous post was merely to point out Claypova's ridiculous post which was a flawed argument (if it could even be called that) to begin with.

justineheninfan
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:41 AM
"I marveled at how happy she seemed on and off the court, I marveled at the great relationship she had with her dad. And then with the stabbing and her father's death, her life turned upside-down… She's come out of it all with a lot of dignity, learned some hard lessons, but has had a lot of grace throughout all these episodes. She could have won 10 more Grand Slam events. I think she was robbed, shortchanged in the tennis department, but it helped her personally. She grew up and found herself and became a better person because of it."
- Chris Evert (http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/page/Player/Info/0,,12781~2188,00.html)


We can add Chris Evert to the list of lunatics who's opinion doesn't mean much in the context of reality.

http://www.wtatour.com/page/OffCourtNews/Read/0,,12781~2064951,00.html


Considering Chris Evert was the worst former player tennis analyst of all time during her horror show years at NBC I have no problem adding her to that list as well. Here are some Chris Evert gems over the years:

-Capriati is clearly the favorite to win Wimbledon (2001)

-If Venus and Serena didnt have to play each other 4th round they would have both reached atleast the semifinals (Wimbledon 2008, before a very young and raw Serena crashes out in 3rd round to Ruano Pascaul)

-This is the real final, before Venus-Hingis French quarterfinal in 1998

-Clijsters has nothing to hurt Capriati with, day before the French Open final in 2001 (then embarassed when the match ended up being a dogfight she mourns on how supposably sluggish Capriati is)

-I pick Serena to win the French Open (in 2008, 2009, 2010)

-Graf has no threats left at this Wimbledon if she wins today, look at who is left- Lucic, Davenport, Stevenson. During Graf-Venus quarterfinal of 1999

-It wouldnt surprise me if Stevenson beats Davenport today. Before Davenport-Stevenson Wimbledon semi of 1999

-Navratilova is the only threat to Seles at this Wimbledon. Wimbledon 1992

-I pick Mauresmo as a big threat for Wimbledon (after 2001 French). Mauresmo's early exit to said nobody didnt surprise me at all. She has no weapons to hurt anyone with, no game for the surface (after 2001 Wimbledon exit).

-Serena wont lose a match this year. Early 2003.

-I lost to Margaret Court after serving for the title in the 1973 French Open final (during EVERY match she broadcasts).


So yes her playing legacy aside I do not put any stock in Chris Evert's analysis of other players in her post playing days at all. She is a bigger embarassment to tennis commentary than Mary Carillo at her worst (and atleast Carillo as bad as she is, is still employed, unlike Evert). If you are trying to show a point you are best to not quote her as whatever she says the reverse is most likely what would have happened, as is pretty much always the case with her. :lol: Well 1 out of 5 times she got something right maybe, speaking singular cases of course. If she were right most of the time her pets like Capriati and Hingis would also have over 20 slams by now, about how many she probably predicted them to win over the years, while players she always overlooked such as Davenport would have never been a top 20 player.

pascal77
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:49 AM
Graf's tennis is so far away from such a word as "magic". Her physical fitness and excellent movement gave her great edge over other female players of her time.The only thing she did was running, slicing and attacking with forehand. Some experts even have said she is a ruiner to tennis. which is harsh to accept for Graf's fans but quite true.

Raiden
Nov 2nd, 2010, 04:03 AM
Yeah, that backhand was truly devastating :hearts:Oh, it was devastating allright. It devastated a certain player to the point that it basically ended her world domination and turned her into a dope-snorting junkie. I'd say that is just about as devastating as a stroke has ever got.

disposablehero
Nov 2nd, 2010, 04:31 AM
No more than 10, ffs. She wasnt even that great. Her stabbing was overrated and an excuse blind fans use in their what if scenarios. Might I remind you all that she played in an era of great Steffi Graf, who was the best player of all time and it was almost impossible to win a slam in her era because Steffi could make anyone look like a clown on court, Seles included (see Wimbledon 1992). Steffi was a supreme athlete, supreme player, she was in god mode in mid 90s and overweight, butter addicted Seles had nothing on her, it was no comparison. Steffi glided around the court like a ballerina with no wasted movement, top notch anticipation and blasted winners at will from anywhere on the court. Seles looked like she was moving in slow motion even when she was running, it was embarrassing to watch, she basically set the trend for all the overweight ball bashers on the tour day. She had her 2 years of glory, beating clowns, when Steffi had bad back and personal problems, but it all came to an end soon enough. 22 slams. 10-5 H2H.
LOL. 3 per year in her teens and you think with an uninterrupted career she would have had 2 more total in the remainder of her time at 19 plus all of her 20's. I really hate to have to ask you about your crack habit in every thread, but when you try to be taken seriously with crap like this, what do you expect?

Matt01
Nov 2nd, 2010, 12:28 PM
Oh, it was devastating allright. It devastated a certain player to the point that it basically ended her world domination and turned her into a dope-snorting junkie. I'd say that is just about as devastating as a stroke has ever got.


:lol: Good one.

bandabou
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:04 PM
Oh, it was devastating allright. It devastated a certain player to the point that it basically ended her world domination and turned her into a dope-snorting junkie. I'd say that is just about as devastating as a stroke has ever got.

Or better yet: It prompted her own fan to go stab her rival so that Steffi could start winning again.

chuvack
Nov 2nd, 2010, 01:38 PM
No stabbing = 18-plus Slams for Seles, including the calendar GS in 1993.

Matt01
Nov 2nd, 2010, 02:15 PM
No stabbing = 18-plus Slams for Seles, including the calendar GS in 1993.


Possibly. But we'll never know :sad: so it's rather pointless to speculate :shrug: