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jomar
Oct 9th, 2001, 09:58 AM
Graf is always compared to the best of the new generation simply because she's the best during her time.

Venus is the best player right now, thus it's justified to compare them. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

I guess I would pick Venus because she's more powerful than Steffi as far service game & ground strokes are concerned.<font color=gold>

CanIGetAWhat
Oct 9th, 2001, 10:07 AM
you only started this thread because of the "graf vs. hingis" thread <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

the venus of 2001 because she's got a better all-around game than steffi, she's a superb offensive and defensive player, her service game is much better and she possesses more power.

i love what this writer said about Venus,"The vexing V has by far the most authoritative serve on the women's tour, both with her first and second serve blasts and twisters. Venus also has a nearly impenetrable backhand, moves like the wind, plays standout defensive tennis and is a terror at net when she decides to go in."

read my quote <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<font size=5 color=red>[b]Go Venus Williams! Dominate 2002!</font>
http://www.gotennis.com/photogallery/images/vwilliams2.jpg

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: CanIGetaWhat ]

irma
Oct 9th, 2001, 10:23 AM
Steffi would win in three <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

TheBoiledEgg
Oct 9th, 2001, 10:39 AM
I'd still pick Steffi .... even when she cam back from Injury and wasn't nowehere near her best she could beat Venus.

jomar
Oct 9th, 2001, 11:02 AM
LOL good point Daniel. <IMG SRC="smilies/smileyshot.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/angel.gif" border="0">

per4ever
Oct 9th, 2001, 11:15 AM
I go for Steffi too. She was the greatest. I honestly can't believe that Venus will rule...

In some way I believe Steffi was an even more complete player. She won matches even she was in a bad shape. She always knew the bad points of her opponents, and used them.
yep definitely Steffi

jomar
Oct 9th, 2001, 11:22 AM
You could hear Arantxa say these days that today's players bring much more POWER than during their time.

Venus would overpower Steffi. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Mattographer
Oct 9th, 2001, 12:04 PM
Stefanie Graf beat Venus Williams in third set at my hometown in 1999 <IMG SRC="smilies/angel.gif" border="0">

This time, Stefanie still beat Venus <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

ttaM
Oct 9th, 2001, 12:26 PM
Venus in 2

Venus is more mentally tough, bigger serve, consistent forehand, more speed in '01 than in '99.

Viva
Oct 9th, 2001, 01:00 PM
Nah, Steffi in 3. She beat Venus in 1999 when she wasn't at her best, suspect thigh injury and she was what? 29 or 30. Pretty damn good! And she was in her prime in 1988!

Nan Cu
Oct 9th, 2001, 02:15 PM
Venus in two.

Venus wasn't nearly as consistent in 1999 as she is today. As for that Wimbledon, Steffi got lucky ... till the finals that is. And that's the kind of player Venus has become.

Lindsayfan
Oct 9th, 2001, 02:54 PM
Steffi without doubt.she is the one of best player of the history,Venus is one of the best NOW,i dont think Venus will do the tennis history like Steffi did.

Wimble_Don
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:03 PM
I believe Venus of 2000-01 would beat Steffi in three tight sets, like 6-3, 5-7, 7-5. Venus is as mentally tough (if not more) than Steffi and is more powerful off both sides than Steffi. And plus Venus has that awesome serve...

Infiniti2001
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:05 PM
GEEZ!!! Do you guys have a crystal ball or you believe Miss Cleo??? We will NEVER know.... I loved Steffi then, and now I love Venus, but there is no way they can be compared . Give it a rest already!!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Becool
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:10 PM
Venus would win, I dont think Stefii would handle the power of Venus right now.......... The game of Steffi was so smooth, comparing to Venus´s game actually, so Venus in maybe straight sets

Becool
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:13 PM
Aahhhhh I forgot something.......
Just because, maybe, Venus won´t have the same retrosepct of Steffi, this don´t mean that she is not able to beat her <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

ttaM
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:16 PM
Another way of looking at it is by surface.

Clay: Graf! I don't care what year

Grass: Graf

Hardcourt: Venus!

Carpet: Toss up

CB
Oct 9th, 2001, 03:18 PM
If it was in 1988, Steffi would win. If it was on 2001, Venus would win. Cause their games are just too different. On that time, the game was different. The "power" revolution started with Monica Seles. The pace of the game was much slower than nowadays.

way
Oct 9th, 2001, 04:01 PM
Graf no doubt.
Graf 1988 has no comparison with whomever.

Wimble_Don
Oct 9th, 2001, 04:13 PM
Let's be clear on something - Venus Williams is clearly a different player than she was from 1996-May of 2000. When she won Wimbledon for the first time in 2000, she became fully confident and is now the single most dominant player on the WTA. If Steffi of 1988 were to meet an undeveloped Venus in those early years, then yes, Steffi would probably crush Venus in straights, but now that Venus is a champion and the best player on the tour, I have to give Venus the edge. Steffi Graf in 1988 did not have anyone close to a Venus Williams to compete with. No one had the power, pace, and athleticism to challenge her. I don't know if the young Steffi would be able to handle it.

spencercarlos
Oct 9th, 2001, 05:15 PM
Well i think Graf at her best beat Venus at her best........... And on every surface Steffi has proven to be a champion all surfaces....
She shorlty did that in 99, and i think that was her last goal before her retirement........ To beat the young generation players after the TRASH-TALKING that players that include Serena, Venus, Anna K and Hingis made of Steffi when she was out with an injury in that 1997-1998 period.
Steffi is the best on every surface..... that just tops all.
Maybe in the next coming year Venus will be able to win French open and a lot of more slams, but right now Steffi is on top.

Infiniti2001
Oct 9th, 2001, 05:42 PM
petosp ,PLEASE post a link where Venus and or Serena ever trashed Steffi... In fact Venus once said how much she admired Miss Graf, and that she is a GREAT champion... last year during the U.S. Open rain delay she watched a tape of Steffi in one of the U.S. Open finals...

As far as I know Martina Hingis is the only player who was talking trash when it came to Steffi <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

anabel
Oct 9th, 2001, 06:31 PM
Graf'88 could make doubles bagel Venus'01 on clay... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

I think it would be more even on grass or hard but anyway Graf would win.

Grat is the greatest.....Venus is not and wqont be...

Barrie_Dude
Oct 9th, 2001, 06:54 PM
Steffi in 3 unless Steffi gets mad in which case it's Steffi in 2

Rollo
Oct 9th, 2001, 07:01 PM
Petosp-A young Venus did talk some trash(so did Graf in her younger days) but I can't recall her ever having anything but praise for Steffi, and vice versa.

Now as for who would win-what are the conditions? Do they have the same equipment, prep time, etc? All those factors make a big difference. Graf has had the better career of course, but probably we have yet to see the best of Venus. Graf leads the head to head 3-2, and while Venus fans know she wasn't as good then as now, Graf fans know Steffi was well below her best in 1999, when 4 of the 5
meetings took place.

I rather like the way Go Monica looks at it, which is by surface.

Clay-BIG edge to Graf. Venus too inconsistent
off the ground, power blunted by clay.
Hard courts-the best surface for Venus. With
3 big shots(forehand-backhand-serve) to Graf's 2(forehand and serve)Venus has the same power edge Monica had over Steffi on hard courts.
Grass-Edge to Graf based on their 99 Wimbledon and her 7 Wimbledon titles. This is where Graf's slice backhand helps out the most. That 1999 Wimbledon match was the best
of the tournament! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Right now I'd say Graf has a big edge if they meet several times, but Venus is sure to win more slams and narrow the gap.

maccardel
Oct 9th, 2001, 09:13 PM
No doubt Venus in one because Steffi would retire due to fatigue...No one can run down a ball like Venus can and for Steffi( whom I admire)..I can't see her giving Venus '01 too much trouble...if you want proof, just look at Monica Seles....even when Monica returned to form this summer and demolished Jen-sin and Martina Hingis, she still couldn't get through Venus even with her A game...also with Venus' performance at Pilot Pen this year even more validates my point....Venus in two 7-5, 7-5...only to be fair to my Steffi.

Venus now makes mince meat out of Martina Hingis,Serena,Lindsay,Monica,Jen-sin,and other players that I can't see steffi doing so easily....

QueenV
Oct 9th, 2001, 09:20 PM
The question is 1988 Graf vs. 2001 Venus. So far all of the times that both of these players have met neither have been at their full potential. So it is virtually impossible to choose who would win. You obviously can't base Graf's wins over Venus on how they would match up now. The most you could do is compare their strengths and most potent weapons, and of course surfaces. In my opinion if you do that Venus would come out the victor. I say that about Venus of the 2001-2001 not the Venus of 1996-1999 because she didn't possess some of the strengths she had now, and if she did have them she didn't use them all that well in her matches compared to now. As for Graf she is as well as Venus a great athlete and she was much more experienced than Venus when they met before. She had won between 21 and 22 GS during the time that they played compared to Venus' none. That is a big edge as far as mentality goes.

So let's see in the last two years there have been mainly 3 big things that I've seen Venus demostrate that she didn't do before.

Serve: While she has always possessed the biggest serve in women's tennis she didn't get as many free points off of it as she does now. In fact players with less powerful serves who used more variety often got more free points than Venus. In the last 2 years, especially 2001 I have seen Venus use the kick and slice serve. Plus the fast ball, but often if a player is getting used to her fast ball she'll change pace. These are things on her serve that you just didn't see before 2000.

Variety: In the last 2 years I think everyone has noticed, especially players that she had trouble playing against like Martina and Lindsay, that she has added elements to her game that helps her defeat players of all types. She does this because she has added so much variety to her game. Depending on the weather, her game, or just to through a player off their game she will mix things up. Usually she just plays her normal game unless she has more trouble than usual in a match like the things I listed above. Drop shots, slice off the forehand and backhand, and a very good net player have made her very hard to beat. Those are just things that she has added. She's always had the power game.

Mental Stability: I remember me and my sister talking this year about how Venus and Serena have switched as far as mental stability goes. We remember watching Venus in pre-GS phase and how you could clearly see her get angry or lose focus, and sometimes even cry. Like against Novotna at Wimbledon in 1998 after holding a 5-1 lead in the first set. Not anymore. With her power, athletic ability, her serve, and her variety she's figured out that it will be almost impossible to beat her in straight sets, let alone 3 sets if she uses her full arsenal. That has made her very strong mentally, plus the fact that she didn't want to get showed up by her little sister. I'd say her mental stability is her the strongest asset out of the three things I've listed.


From what I've seen of Steffi her main weapons were her forehand, her slice backhand, even though people thought it was a weakness it is actually helpful against players that are tall and slow. She is a very good athlete, and also has the mind of a warrior on court.


If you look at Venus before 2000 she wouldn't have had enough to beat Graf then or in 1988. She didn't have the improved serve, the variety or the mental stability to beat a player that had everything she had with the added experience and GS wins. Heck Lindsay led Venus by like 7 wins before 2000 and beating Martina before then seemed like a daunting task. Now Venus has evened her series against Lindsay, and I'm not sure but I think she may be even or lead Martina. Heck I doubt the 1999 Venus would have been able to beat the 2000 Jennifer. I give the edge to Venus over Graf. Even in 1999 when they played at Wimbledon it went to 3 sets. The point is don't base previous matches that were over 2 years ago on now. Graf was a different player and so was Venus.

Randy H
Oct 9th, 2001, 09:21 PM
I think Venus would beat Steffi most likely.

Some of you are trying to justify Steffi's wins over Venus in 1999 as reason why she'd win. Well, Venus was a TOTALLY different player back then. We're not comparing Steffi 88 vs. Venus 99...it's 2001 Venus, and that means a quicker, smarter, more consistent and mentally tougher Venus Williams. Venus has the bigger serve, she's got more power off of both sides, she can attack the net better, and she can retrieve more than Steffi too. I just don't think Steffi's power would be enough to beat Venus. Considering Steffi lost to the likes of Arantxa and Amanda who are retrievers, imagine the fits she'd have with Venus who can not only retrieve more, but she can also do WAY more with the ball in a defensive position than a high moonball lob. And that's to assume Steffi even had a lot of rallies where she was dictating. I can't see Steffi beating Venus at her best with much ease if at all.

Jakeev
Oct 9th, 2001, 09:23 PM
Some of you are missing the point. Who cares when Steffi beat Venus, we are talking about the Venus of 2001 here.

The power prevailing today was not that prevalent in 1988. Moreover, Steffi was not even a complete player yet.

Her backhand was still infamous for being weak even, in her golden slam year, and she did not attack the net as much as she did later in her career.

Venus would have had Steffi for lunch.

In fact I dare to say if you took just the top 20 players back in time to 1988 and told them to compete that entire year, the results would change history today.

moon
Oct 9th, 2001, 10:33 PM
thank you Randy and Jakeev, for tellin it like it is. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

btw--Canigetawhat, love that quote from Monica!

thefreedesigner
Oct 9th, 2001, 11:02 PM
I'm not go into the stats of Graf 1988 vs Williams 2001.

i) because I'm lazy
ii) because with Venus, stats aren't an amazingly vital factor.

I think that comparing the 2, Graf would be the better, more complete player, but I don't think that necessarily means she would win.

The lack of rhythm that Graf would get from playing Venus (even at her best), would rattle Graf.

Its tough I mean, I can't recall Steffi losing that many times... and you just don't visualise Steffi as a loser, but I don't see what Steffi would beat Venus with necessarily. Maybe trying the defensive hit flat and deep, then wait for the error? Also, would Steffi have so much time to run 'round her backhand? I don't think so.

Er....ah.... Venus!

jd4eva
Oct 9th, 2001, 11:25 PM
Venus dominated the tour now, and she would have back then

Venus Williams def Steffi Graf 6-2 6-2

polexia
Oct 10th, 2001, 12:29 AM
i assume this is a friendly comparison and therefore i'll say steffi. maybe venus in the future or whatever coz i still dun think venus has played to her potential yet

Becool
Oct 10th, 2001, 03:56 AM
Anabel : Venus could not be the greatest, but is doing like she is.... Venus can beat all the players, including Steffi. Steffi´s old type of game would not be able to stop Venus´s power of this year.... Ok, it´s ok that you think that Graf would win, but not bageling her... Cause Graf never beat Venus in easy conditions, and in 1988, I still believe she would keep not being able to defeat her like 6-0 6-0 <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
Well it´s your opinion, a little bit, crazy, but it´s your opinion..

rember1
Oct 10th, 2001, 04:16 AM
what a great thread! i would love to see a match between both players at their peak. but alas, as many of you wise folks mention, it can't happen.

if i had to bet my last dollar, i'd say that not only venus, but several of today's top players would defeat steffi (although i do love steffi).

as with other sports and other things in general, the competition and level of play gets stronger over time. it's darwinism plain and simple. it surprises me that a lot people don't recognize that obvious yet important point.

jomar
Oct 10th, 2001, 05:14 AM
Venus is a lot stronger now physically & mentally than their last meeting.

If Steffi is quick, Venus is quicker. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Viva
Oct 10th, 2001, 05:38 AM
Infiniti2001 - here is a solution to your problem, if you don't like the thread don't read it! Nobody forced you in you clicked on the button yourself. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Viva ]

jomar
Oct 10th, 2001, 05:46 AM
Awwwww...that's an infinite advice from Viva. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/cool.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/angel.gif" border="0">

razzp
Oct 10th, 2001, 07:50 AM
I think Venus is an improved Steffi Graf so it follows that Venus will win if they meet. In 1988 Graf is the best player and Venus has that recognition now. Comparing their strenghts, you will see a reflection but not a complete one. They have the same strenghts but Williams has the edge on the backhand. On her prime, Steffi has the best serve. Talking about power game, she's on top. She has the best mobility. The most athletic probably. And nobody has the capability to challenge her. It's the same with Venus now. I repeat, she is an improved Graf. Her serve is a lot faster, she has more power, and has more court coverage, and more athletic than the future Mrs. Agassi. The Venus that Miss Graf defeated in Wimbledon is a lot different than the present one. Her mental toughness improved. She doesn't choke just like Miss Seles. But Venus forehand is not as good as Steffi's. Graf 's forehand has a better pace and Venus's is a little bit shaky. Only her power separate it from graf's.

I think Venus will overpower Graf. She can't handle the power and consistency of Venus now. Take a rewind in tennis history. In 1990 the power game was raised to a higher level courtesy of Monica Seles. Graf can't handle the pace and power Monica has plus the mental toughness that the Yugoslavian possess. Although Graf owned her on grass it took her years to dominate Seles thanks to a lunatic who extract the best of Miss Seles. Now the power game was revolutionized again by Davenport and the Williams sisters. Remeber the Wimbledon final between Graf and Davenport? The only thing that helped Graf on the match is Lindsay's sluggisheness plus Graf's own arsenals. Venus is number one on the power list and she's not sluggish. A sluggish and unfit Monica can overpower or at least stretched Steffi to the limit, what more a Venus with all those superior weapons will do to an ageing Graf.

Williams Rulez
Oct 10th, 2001, 08:57 AM
I think it'll take 3 sets and it'll go to Venus in the end.

Steffi dominated because of her
* Forehand
* Speed
* Serve
* Mental Strength

Venus is Dominating because of her
* Backhand
* Speed
* Serve
* Mental Strength

So essentially, both have the same weapons, except on different wings. However, we must take into account that Venus' weapons are superior to Steffi's in some ways.

Venus' speed is greater than Steffi and having that extra reach helps too.

Though Steffi's serve was among the best in 1988, it is nowhere as powerful or as useful as Venus' serve right now.
Steffi's forehand is stronger than Venus' but if

Venus were to use her forehand to attack Steffi's backhand, Steffi would be in trouble. Because of the pace on Venus' ball, Steffi wouldn't have enough time to run around her backhand to hit a forehand as she does so often. And Venus' forehand is nowhere as weak as Steffi's backhand.

Lastly, Venus can do more at the net. Her net play is better than Steffi, so you cannot say that Steffi has at advantage at the net.

The only advantage I can think of that Steffi has over Venus is that Steffi is more consistent and does not go into a *dream mode* all of a sudden.

The meetings in 1999 shouldn't count as at that time Venus was vastly inexperienced, and she was playing horribly as compared to now. She was just trying to belt the ball as hard as she could, rather than trying to play tennis. But now, she has evolved, so I think the head to head records don't count, really.

So as of now, Venus would probably win in 3 sets if they played.

And I think Steffi rather admired or respected Venus in a way. My quote on the old board was a quote from Steffi on Venus and Serena... sadly I've lost it though

Brian Stewart
Oct 10th, 2001, 01:06 PM
My breakdown of their abilities:

Forehand: advantage Steffi. She has more power, and is much more consistent. Venus can still get wild on this wing.

Backhand: slight advantage Venus. She has more power, and can rip it up the line. Steffi had one of the most biting slice backhands in the history of the game.

Serve: even. Venus has a bigger bomb on the first serve, but Steffi's placement was a bit better. Venus' heater allows her to do more in terms of variety. On second serve, Steffi is much more consistent. Venus still pulls her head down too quickly sometimes, and her form can occasionally get dodgy. Also, Venus will give away more points on double faults.

Volleys: slight advantage Venus. Both players can make the routine "baseliner's volley" (where the approach shot does 90% of the work toward winning the point). Put some difficulty on it, and both are in trouble at the net. Venus would grab an extra couple of points there simply because of reach.

Overhead: big advantage Venus. She's tall, and has a pretty good overhead to boot. Steffi had the worst overhead of any #1 I ever saw. She'd literally miss half of them, even if they were routine.
Speed: advantage Steffi. She's still the fastest player I ever saw on a tennis court.

Mental toughness: advantage Steffi. Venus still has the occasional lull. This summer, she went walkabout in the middle of the second set with regularity.

For the sake of argument, I'm putting the match on a neutral surface. My pick to win is Steffi. The reason? I think Steffi can do more to neutralize Venus' strengths than Venus can do to her.

Steffi would continuously slice that backhand deep to Venus' backhand. Steffi's slice was murder for two-handers. Even worse for a tall two-hander. Granted, Venus gets down for the low ball better than any tall player ever. But she's going to have to do it half a dozen times or more per game. That will take a toll. And it will take away her ability to do anything offensive from the backhand wing.

Venus will try to take away Steffi's forehand with her retrieving ability. Steffi can compensate by hitting behind Venus to keep her "honest". That will help neutralize another Venus strength- the ability to hit well on the run. Steffi can further blunt that by hitting that biting slice deep down the middle. The deep down the middle play is still very effective against Venus. But it needs to be executed well and consistently. Steffi can do it with her slice backhand.

How can Venus nullify the effectiveness of that slice? From the net. The problem is, Venus only attacks the net when she's doing well in other phases of her game. When the match gets tight, she doesn't have the confidence to do so. And I think her mid-second set walkabout would be fatal against Steffi.

For Venus to win, she'd need to attack Steffi by taking Steffi's inside-out forehand down the line with her two-hander, thus opening Steffi's backhand corner to attack. Pound the ball there, then move in to take Steffi's slice out of the air, before it can do damage. Also, mix in a lot of drop shots to bring Steffi in where she's least comfortable. Make her hit tough volleys and overheads. Missing these shots could fluster the perfectionist Steffi. And Venus has to have a good serving day.

I feel Steffi would win because Venus still isn't a consistent presence at net, and only a good net rusher could challenge Steffi '88 consistently. And Venus still has lapses in her second serve and overall concentration. That is why, over a series of matches on a neutral surface, Steffi would win the majority. Venus' game still needs a few more fine-tuning tweaks to get her where she would need to be to beat Steffi with any regularity.

Infiniti2001
Oct 10th, 2001, 01:25 PM
Hey Viva, I live in the U.S. and the last time I checked , it was not a crime to have a differing opinion... Get over yourself please <IMG SRC="smilies/mad.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/firey.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/mad.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/firey.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

Jakeev
Oct 11th, 2001, 06:01 AM
I have to disagree about some of your assessments about Steffi's 88' game, sorry Brian.

Everyone in the business knew that too beat Steffi Graf you had to take advantage of her weak backhand or expose her weakenesses at the net.

Not only Venus, but several players on tour could have given Graf fits on the court. Although a player like Venus would have had the better chance to come away with a victory.

I frankly think Steffi of 1988 would have been shocked and amazed to face a player in Venus who was like no other Steffi played during that year.

Josh
Oct 11th, 2001, 12:20 PM
I don't think the way to beat Steffi is to attack her 'weak' backhand. Her backhand was not weak, IMO it's much underrated but as Brian said it's probably the nastiest slice backhand ever.
To beat Steffi you would have to keep her in the backhand corner cause she would try to run around it an hit a forehand, therefore she often let a gap on her forehand side (down the line). So it was up to her opponents to keep her on the backhand side and then surprise her with a down the line shot to her forehand. Of course you'd have to do that before she could run around her backhand <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">.

I don't think her volleys were weaker than those of Venus.

I agree about the overhead though. I still remember Steffi missing an overhead against Arantxa at Wimbledon. She just hit the air lol.

Venus will be a better player than Steffi though. Probably not in terms of grand slam wins or weeks at #1, but every generation is better than the previous one. F.e. you cannot say that Lenglen was a better player than Sabatini, she was 'greater' not better.

spencercarlos
Oct 11th, 2001, 01:34 PM
Lets be precise at this right now. Steffi's 88 was not the peak of Steffi Graf as a player, she became a better player in the 94-96 period. Ok she did not won the Golden Grand Slam then, but i think she peaked in those years.
I don't think Steffi 88 would beat Venus, but i think Steffi at her peak would beat Venus 2001..

Halardfan
Oct 11th, 2001, 01:50 PM
Tough call...

In a one off match Id take Venus to win in three. Over the course of a season each at their best? Then Id take Graf. So which is the best player of recent years???

Julie Halard of course! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Why? Cos she just is. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Forget logic...faith is what counts! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Ba ]

macn
Oct 11th, 2001, 02:06 PM
Steffi Graf has always had problems with aggressive players(Lori Mcneil, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles) Monica didn't give Steffi much time to run around her backhand and that fustrated Steffi. It has been said that Venus gets back balls that no other female could and she hits them with such power. Venus would have beaten Steffi in my opinion!

Viva
Oct 12th, 2001, 05:46 AM
Infiniti2001 - I never said you couldn't come in here I just gave you some advice to stop whingeing. And also I believe you told other people to stop talking about this topic, just one big contradiction there.

No need to get defensive and use the "angry" smilies! <IMG SRC="smilies/angel.gif" border="0">

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Viva ]

moby
Oct 12th, 2001, 07:41 AM
we seem to be comparing 2 people in totally different eras (okay not totally but it's different)

especially when one is 3 years older than the other

Williams Rulez
Oct 12th, 2001, 09:07 AM
*Slaps* Maoey.... so what? <IMG SRC="smilies/smileyshot.gif" border="0">

We are comparing the elements of their game guessing the outcome, just for fun.

jomar
Oct 23rd, 2001, 11:16 AM
ok, you rule!!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

CB
Oct 23rd, 2001, 12:08 PM
Venus would find an excuse and she would lose walkover.<br />An injury from her adolescence or sth...<br />PFFF<br /> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

cheeky
Oct 23rd, 2001, 02:23 PM
caio why don,t you do something better with your life then make comments about venus! <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

the cat
Oct 23rd, 2001, 02:51 PM
At her best, I think Venus would overwhelm Steffi with her tremendous size, power, speed and most of all, her great defense. Steffi, in her prime, never played against anyone the size and talent of Venus Williams. Venus, at about 6'2" tall and 170 pounds, would have dwarfed the 5'9" tall and 132 pound Steffi. This is not a slap at Steffi. But she wouldn't have been able to handle Venus. Venus would crowd Steffi's backhand, and she would smother Steffi with her incredible court coverage. Also Venus is a much better player than she was when she played Steffi in the 1999 Wimbledon quartefinal. In 1999, Venus was still a young player.<br />Venus is also a more complete player than Steffi ever was. On a hard court, I say the Venus of 2001 would defeat the Steffi of 1988 6-4 6-4. This is no knock at Steffi. But Venus Williams has too much size, power and speed for the great Steffi Graf.

Rollo
Oct 23rd, 2001, 05:45 PM
The biggest problem with saying Venus would beat up on poor little Steffi (3 inches isn't a world of difference) is that Williams didn't win a slam til after<br />Steffi retired. Graf was hardly overpowered the last year she played(1999), when she beat Venus at Wimbledon.

On hard courts Venus would be able to take advantage of Graf's backhand, but on any other surface it's advantafge Graf.

the cat
Oct 23rd, 2001, 06:06 PM
Rollo, 3 inches? Try 5 inches! Advantage Venus!

P.S. - I almost forgot. Venus can dominate from everywhere on the court. Steffi could only dominate with her forehand.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: the cat in the hat ]</p>

Rollo
Oct 23rd, 2001, 06:34 PM
Bottom line is Venus didn't have a winning record Vs. Graf, doesn't yet have a French or Aussie slam,<br />not to mention getting to #1 on the computer or winning a WTA final. Only a fan would conclude Venus would beat Graf regularly. Venus needs to pass Hingis for career results before She even enters Steffi's league.

The 5 inch difference is not that big a deal, especially since neither comes to net often.<br />Graf was hardly overpowered by Venus or Davenport. Unlike Hingis, Graf had a very good serve. Williams DOES have a better backhand, but her forehand still produces far too many errors. Clay exposes this weakness. When Venus wins at Roland Garros, then I'll believe she's moved up another level. She has yet to dominate the way Seles, Graf, or even Hingis did in 1997.

macn
Oct 23rd, 2001, 07:08 PM
I agree that Venus has not reached the level of achievement that Steffi had; however, the post was 1988 vs 2001. We will never know who would have won but, I feel Venus would have won. Venus' competition is much much tougher than Steffi's was back in her dominating period. Name someone besides Sanchez and Sabatini who gave Steffi any real competition and I can name 8 players today who would wipe them out.

Rollo
Oct 23rd, 2001, 07:40 PM
If it comes down to 2001 vs. 1988, sure Venus would probably win, but then Steffi of 1999 would have beaten Steffi of 1988 in that case. Take away the power racquets we now have and put Venus back in 1988-and Graf would eat her alive until Venus adapted her game to cut down on the errors.

As for competition, Steffi faced a lot of the same players Venus does today, (Capriati, Seles, and Davenport). Venus has earned her slams fair and square, but if I were the defense for Steffi I could say

1. Venus didn't win her first slam til Graf retired.<br /> Graf and Novotna retiring helped Venus win <br /> Wimbledon-both beat her there in 1998-99.<br />2. Hingis isn't the player she was in 1997.<br />3. Davenport, her biggest threat, has been <br /> dealing with injuries since 1999.

<br />I'm not saying there's a day I won't change my mind, but Brian Stewart summed up their games well. The arguments I've seen so far in Wiliam's favor have all been from Venus fans.

XMan
Oct 23rd, 2001, 08:07 PM
the Steffi of '88 would beat the Venus of '01. Venus would use her power to overwhelm Steffi but I doubt that she could win. Venus makes to many faults in comparison with Steffi and I don't think that Venus could play her game as she does against others now.

macn
Oct 23rd, 2001, 08:27 PM
I can make the argument that Steffi didn't win her first slam until Navratilova and Evert and Mandlikova were past their prime, Graf would have had a very difficult time beating Evert on clay or Martina on grass during their primes. How many slams did Graf win when Seles dominated? Davenport has had injuries; however she seems to win 5 or 6 tournaments a year, make the finals of Grand slams and won 2. I would love to be injured and win that many titles. Steffi is one of the greatest players of all time and if Venus plays for the next 5 or 6 years, she could probably become one of the best if not THE best of all time IMO. Steffi has always had problems with people who were aggressive(Navratilova, Seles, Lori Mcneil) and Venus would have given her hell on a faster service. On clay I give the edge to Steffi!

pisces
Oct 23rd, 2001, 08:39 PM
WE WILL NEVER KNOW.MYSELF,I AM A TRUE WILLAIMS FAN.I PERSONELY THINK THAT ONE REASON GRAF,LEFT,DUE TO THE WILLIAMS WINNING THEIR MATCHES OVER HER.I KNOW SERENA WON,THE LAST TIME THEY PLAY.BUT I WASN'T INTO TENNIS LIKE IAM NOW.I LOVE IT.ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT .THE WILLAIMS SISTER BROUGHT TENNIS TO A BIGGER PLAYING FIELD.NOW I LOVE ALL THE PLAYERS. <img src="graemlins/hearts.gif" border="0" alt="[Hearts]" /> <img src="graemlins/bounce.gif" border="0" alt="[Bounce]" />

Rollo
Oct 23rd, 2001, 08:44 PM
Pisces,

If any defeat drove Graf from the game, it was her loss to Davenport in the 99 Wimbledon final. Lindsay didn't drop serve once-shocking Steffi and herself. In the quarters Graf beat Venus in 3 sets. If you get a chance to ever see THAt match, do, as it was the best of that year <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

mike27
Sep 27th, 2003, 03:39 PM
the key of Graf was the will to win!
her will was the strongest and much stronger than venus'. Williams wouldn't have any chance...

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 27th, 2003, 03:54 PM
the key of Graf was the will to win!
her will was the strongest and much stronger than venus'. Williams wouldn't have any chance...

Thread Troll.

tennisjam
Sep 28th, 2003, 10:39 AM
confident Steffi vs confident Venus...hmmmm...

Venus...too much weapons when she is on...Graf would be overpowered...something like against Pierce at the French...

moby
Sep 28th, 2003, 10:48 AM
venus of 2001 = venus at her best
graf of 1988 = graf at her best NOT

it isnt a fair comparison

gRaFiC
Sep 28th, 2003, 02:26 PM
When Steffi got to no. 3 in 1999 she said she was surprised that it was so easy to get back to the top. This coming from a 30 year old tennis veteran who would retire not long after. Her best days definitely behind her!!!!

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2003, 02:41 PM
When Steffi got to no. 3 in 1999 she said she was surprised that it was so easy to get back to the top. This coming from a 30 year old tennis veteran who would retire not long after. Her best days definitely behind her!!!!

Still, she had three losses to the Williamses....even then!

mike27
Sep 28th, 2003, 08:40 PM
When Graf would be into the macht an not get overpowered then...
I think, steffi's backhand slice was a good wappen against the williams sisters espacially on their backhands...
They have to go deep down in their knees and would get tiered in the third perhaps.


... sorry... bad english... I know..

tennisjam
Sep 29th, 2003, 12:54 PM
sure...

graf was so over her prime that she produced some of her best tennis in her two last tourneys...

give me a break, grafic :o :rolleyes:

bilal
Sep 29th, 2003, 04:15 PM
Its a pity people keep referring to FO99 and Wimby99 as some of Steffi's best tennis.. coz it was not.. yes, she beat almost all the top players those 2 events... but thats just a sign of what a Steffi at her best would've done.

alfajeffster
Sep 29th, 2003, 04:27 PM
1988 was nowhere near Graf's best tennis. She played her best tennis in 1995-96. I still think Steffi at her peak can beat any player I've seen to date- including both Williams sisters.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 29th, 2003, 04:48 PM
confident Steffi vs confident Venus...hmmmm...

Venus...too much weapons when she is on...Graf would be overpowered...something like against Pierce at the French...


Maybe so but how many times did that happen in thier match-ups? EXACTLY once. Draw your conclusion.


"Take a rewind in tennis history. In 1990 the power game was raised to a higher level courtesy of Monica Seles. Graf can't handle the pace and power Monica has plus the mental toughness that the Yugoslavian possess. Although Graf owned her on grass "

Monica never beat Steffi on a fast hardcourt...EVER...I have never witnessed any match where Monica Seles overpowered Steffi Graf, and neither have you. H2h (6-4) 10-5 you do the match.

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 05:29 PM
1988 was nowhere near Graf's best tennis. She played her best tennis in 1995-96. I still think Steffi at her peak can beat any player I've seen to date- including both Williams sisters.

But the sisters at their peak can beat Graf too!

Jen'sFan
Sep 29th, 2003, 05:33 PM
But the sisters at their peak can beat Graf too!

Well how do u know that for sure? Its purely hypothitical.

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 05:53 PM
Well how do u know that for sure? Its purely hypothitical.


Hey if people can be hypothitical, so can I....

Jen'sFan
Sep 29th, 2003, 05:57 PM
Hey if people can be hypothitical, so can I....
soz i wasnt aiming at u in particular i just think its impossible to say for sure whether a player for one generation can beat another one. and since there is no way u can actually prove it i jst think its a waste of time.

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 05:59 PM
soz i wasnt aiming at u in particular i just think its impossible to say for sure whether a player for one generation can beat another one. and since there is no way u can actually prove it i jst think its a waste of time.

You´re right...we will never really know.

DA FOREHAND
Sep 29th, 2003, 07:35 PM
One thing is certain, Steffi's game was good enough in 99 to beat the new generations entire top ten 98-99 in her last full year on tour, and retired at #3(a record)

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 07:47 PM
One thing is certain, Steffi's game was good enough in 99 to beat the new generations entire top ten 98-99 in her last full year on tour, and retired at #3(a record)

Nothing new....she was beating most of the top 10 of ´99 since ´95 or so.

Fact is that of the next generation Serena and Venus gave her more trouble in short period of time than most player gave her in her WHOLE career!

Venus beat her twice in ´99.
Serena stopped her winning streak in finals....so those things are telling too!

DA FOREHAND
Sep 29th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Yes they say the Venus and Serena were coming into thier own, and Graf's glorious career was months away from being over, a nice passing of the torch for me from Steffi to Venus.

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 08:12 PM
Yes they say the Venus and Serena were coming into thier own, and Graf's glorious career was months away from being over, a nice passing of the torch for me from Steffi to Venus.

Plus I think Serena and Venus are among the few players that Steffi knew that she should and actually respected!

G-Ha
Sep 29th, 2003, 08:23 PM
Nothing new....she was beating most of the top 10 of ´99 since ´95 or so.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Steffi's accomplishments in 99 as "nothing new". Sure, beating players in the top ten was nothing new for her, but she had spent much of 97 and 98 off the tour due to injury and surgery. She had so few tournaments on her record, that she was even unranked at one point! When you factor all that into her coming back to achieve back-to-back wins over Venus and Serena, her French win, and Wimbledon runner-up performance, it's a bit more impressive than "nothing new".

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 08:51 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Steffi's accomplishments in 99 as "nothing new". Sure, beating players in the top ten was nothing new for her, but she had spent much of 97 and 98 off the tour due to injury and surgery. She had so few tournaments on her record, that she was even unranked at one point! When you factor all that into her coming back to achieve back-to-back wins over Venus and Serena, her French win, and Wimbledon runner-up performance, it's a bit more impressive than "nothing new".

Indeed, very impressive....one thing I find curious is almost all the players who beat Serena back to back did it at the start of the season in Australia: ASV, Graf, Hingis...

But the trouble she had with the sisters( remember these girls didn´t even play juniors and Serena was in only her second full season.), tells me all I need to know about how their primes and Steffi´s prime would have matched up against each other.

G-Ha
Sep 29th, 2003, 09:02 PM
But the trouble she had with the sisters( remember these girls didn´t even play juniors and Serena was in only her second full season.), tells me all I need to know about how their primes and Steffi´s prime would have matched up against each other.

Likewise, the trouble the sisters had with a past-her-prime Steffi, shortly after returning from long injury/surgery layoffs, tells me all I need to know about how their primes would have matched up. :)

Kart
Sep 29th, 2003, 09:09 PM
Likewise, the trouble the sisters had with a past-her-prime Steffi, shortly after returning from long injury/surgery layoffs, tells me all I need to know about how their primes would have matched up. :)

Ditto :yeah:.

A thirty year old Graf beat Venus Williams in 1999. Venus was a better player in 2001 but the difference was not that huge.

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2003, 09:16 PM
Likewise, the trouble the sisters had with a past-her-prime Steffi, shortly after returning from long injury/surgery layoffs, tells me all I need to know about how their primes would have matched up. :)

Who had trouble?! Serena beat Graf in her second match against her in a final of a tier I.

Venus beat Graf twice in ´99....including one win in her own homecountry of Germany. Yeah, Graf beat Venus at Wimbledon, but Venus has many chances to get back in that match. In fact she ha an easy volley on breakpoint in the third-set that would have put her level...things could have turned MUCH MUCH different. Besides this was only Venus´s third wimbledon compared to Graf who was already a 7-time titlist....the experience-gap was huge.

But of course the oldies will always say players from the past were better. No one is saying that the sisters would have blown Graf away, but I´m sure that they would have posed a MUCH MUCH bigger problem for Graf than many players she has had faced during her heydays!

Warriorroger
Oct 30th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Peak Graf will beat peak Williams. There's too much emphasis on the power bit. Roger Federer has a field with many players who are more powerful than he is, in peak form he wins. Steffi has the mental edge and is faster than Venus. Venus has a great reach, but she isn't faster than Steffi, speed wins over reach, reach becomes a defensive shot. If both are in peak form, it will be one hell of a match, Steffi will win, because she is mentally stronger and she will win because of her backhand as well. The mistake everyone made was attacking her backhand. They should have attacked the forehand in the mid 90s, because she wasn't that good with the defensive forehand.

Score would probably be: Steffi wins 6/3, 7/6 hardcourt.
Graf vs Williams
Aces: 4 - 12
Double faults: 3 - 5
1st service%: 89 - 57
net points: 12 - 17
unforced errors: 15 - 28
winners: 29 - 27
speed serve average : 167 k - 180k
duration of the match: 2 hrs and 59 minutes

Volcana
Oct 30th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Actually, I like Venus(@ Wimbledon (Venus@Wimbledon) 2005)'s chances against Graf 1988 better than Venus 2001.

Remember they played an absolute barn-burner of a match in 1999. And than was post Steffi's knee surgery. So it wasn't like athletically Steffi was at a disadvantage. But Venus has a tendency to go for the big bomb on her first serve, then throw in inferior second serves.

At Wimbledon this serve, Venus sacrifices power for placement, and REALLY was effective. If she plays like THAT, then she beats Graf 1988 7 times out of 10. But playing the way she did in 2001, Graf wins 7 out of 10.

TomTennis
Oct 30th, 2005, 03:17 PM
Venus def. Graf 6-0 6-0

TomTennis
Oct 30th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Score would probably be: Steffi wins 6/3, 7/6 hardcourt.
Graf vs Williams
Aces: 4 - 12
Double faults: 3 - 5
1st service%: 89 - 57
net points: 12 - 17
unforced errors: 15 - 28
winners: 29 - 27
speed serve average : 167 k - 180k
duration of the match: 2 hrs and 59 minutes


mmm. ok. So more aces for Venus. Yes. More double faults for Venus. Yes. More UE's for Venus. Yec. More winners for Graf!??!?!?!?!?!!?? No!!!! :wavey:

jj74
Oct 30th, 2005, 03:22 PM
You could hear Arantxa say these days that today's players bring much more POWER than during their time.

Venus would overpower Steffi. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Maybe but the fact is that Arantxa's number are a lot of better against Venus than against Graf

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 30th, 2005, 03:33 PM
I don't even understand why this is begin debated.

At age 25, Venus has NEVER won four, much less three grand slam singles titles in a calendar year. By age 25, Graf won three grand slam singles titles in a calendar year multiple times and the "Grand Slam" once.

Graf won seven Wimbledon singles titles, largely called Venus' best surface, and Venus has only won three. At age 24, Graf had already won 5 Wimbledon titles. At age 25, Venus has won three.

In all due respect to Venus, she hasn't yet finished her career to be able to compare to Graf's. But at the same age as Venus, 25, Graf was much more accomplished in the sport of tennis.

Venus is a great champion. Graf is a legend. Let history be the final determinate who was better during their respective careers after Venus retires.

areeka101
Oct 30th, 2005, 04:52 PM
You should be comparing Steffi in 1996 vs Venus 2001. She won the GS in '88 but was a vastly superior player in her later, pre-injury years.

And the comparison of Roger Fed vs the power players in the men's game is a good one. Power is one thing, but it's the mind that wins tennis matches at that level and Steffi was VERY smart on the court, way more than she ever got credit for.

Steffi would win I reckon.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:26 PM
Actually, I like Venus(@ Wimbledon (Venus@Wimbledon) 2005)'s chances against Graf 1988 better than Venus 2001.

Remember they played an absolute barn-burner of a match in 1999. And than was post Steffi's knee surgery. So it wasn't like athletically Steffi was at a disadvantage. But Venus has a tendency to go for the big bomb on her first serve, then throw in inferior second serves.

At Wimbledon this serve, Venus sacrifices power for placement, and REALLY was effective. If she plays like THAT, then she beats Graf 1988 7 times out of 10. But playing the way she did in 2001, Graf wins 7 out of 10.


:eek: :eek: :eek: Everybody who says 05 Wimby Venus is better than 01 Wimby Venus must be the mother of all superdumbos ....

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Venus def. Graf 6-0 6-0

Venus 2001 slam matches against players Graf had played at the end of the 90ies:

AO 01: Coetzer 2-6, 6-1, 8-6
AO 01: Hingis 1-6,1-6 (loss)
FO 01: Schett 4-6, 4-6 (loss)
Wim 01: Tauziat 7-5, 6-1
Wim 01: Davenport 6-2, 6-7, 6-1
USO 01: Capriati 6-4, 6-2

Graf is 7-2 against Hingis (beat her even in 99 slam final)
8-6 against Davenport (still 3-4 - plus one ret. - in 98/99 when Graf was crippled)
21-0 against Tauziat (Tauziat NEVER winning a set!)
11-4 against Coetzer (3 losses in 97 with already fractured knee)
3-0 against Schett (Schett never making more than 5 games)
10-1 against Capriati (with 6-1, 6-0 win in 1999)


Thanks Dumbo, for giving me again an opportunity to debunk a Willietardo theory ...

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Venus 2001 slam matches against players Graf had played at the end of the 90ies:

AO 01: Coetzer 2-6, 6-1, 8-6
AO 01: Hingis 1-6,1-6 (loss)
FO 01: Schett 4-6, 4-6 (loss)
Wim 01: Tauziat 7-5, 6-1
Wim 01: Davenport 6-2, 6-7, 6-1
USO 01: Capriati 6-4, 6-2

Graf is 7-2 against Hingis (beat her even in 99 slam final)
8-6 against Davenport (still 3-4 - plus one ret. - in 98/99 when Graf was crippled)
21-0 against Tauziat (Tauziat NEVER winning a set!)
11-4 against Coetzer (3 losses in 97 with already fractured knee)
3-0 against Schett (Schett never making more than 5 games)
10-1 against Capriati (with 6-1, 6-0 win in 1999)


Thanks Dumbo, for giving me again an opportunity to debunk a Willietardo theory ...

A def B, B def C doesn't equal A def C. :)

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:36 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: Everybody who says 05 Wimby Venus is better than 01 Wimby Venus must be the mother of all superdumbos ....

I'd have to agree.........WITH CALI?? :eek:

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:40 PM
I don't even understand why this is begin debated.

At age 25, Venus has NEVER won four, much less three grand slam singles titles in a calendar year. By age 25, Graf won three grand slam singles titles in a calendar year multiple times and the "Grand Slam" once.

Graf won seven Wimbledon singles titles, largely called Venus' best surface, and Venus has only won three. At age 24, Graf had already won 5 Wimbledon titles. At age 25, Venus has won three.

In all due respect to Venus, she hasn't yet finished her career to be able to compare to Graf's. But at the same age as Venus, 25, Graf was much more accomplished in the sport of tennis.

Venus is a great champion. Graf is a legend. Let history be the final determinate who was better during their respective careers after Venus retires.

What does this have to do with the players during those years stepping on the court to play a match against each other?

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:41 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek: Everybody who says 05 Wimby Venus is better than 01 Wimby Venus must be the mother of all superdumbos ....

Yeah kind of agree here. Watch the two finals back to back, it shows how much more dominant Venus was in 2001 than in 2005. Venus had a much better serve in 2001 than in 2005. The only thing that Venus does better in 2005 is approach the net and she volleys better.

Warriorroger
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:09 PM
And the comparison of Roger Fed vs the power players in the men's game is a good one. Power is one thing, but it's the mind that wins tennis matches at that level and Steffi was VERY smart on the court, way more than she ever got credit for.

Steffi would win I reckon.

Thank you, I am almosy alone in seeing the comparisons between Steffi and Roger, although he has more shots, there are a lot of similarities between the two.

Footwork, demeanor, speed, forehand, slice backhand, dominance, king and queen aura.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:34 PM
A def B, B def C doesn't equal A def C. :)


But when A never played C then it is a powerful argument that must be given the benefit of doubt.

Everybody who claims 01 Venus to be better than peak Graf has to fight a real uphill-battle considering that an over-the-hill Graf overtook a healthy 19-year-old Venus in the WTA rankings in 1999.

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:37 PM
But when A never played C then it is a powerful argument that must be given the benefit of doubt.

Everybody who claims 01 Venus to be better than peak Graf has to fight a real uphill-battle considering that an over-the-hill Graf overtook a healthy 19-year-old Venus in the WTA rankings in 1999.

A healthy 19 year old Venus who wasn't anywhere as good as a healthy 21 year old Venus who would have grinded Graf down in 3 sets. :)

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:38 PM
Thank you, I am almosy alone in seeing the comparisons between Steffi and Roger, although he has more shots, there are a lot of similarities between the two.

Footwork, demeanor, speed, forehand, slice backhand, dominance, king and queen aura.

Almost alone?

Hey, everybody says that.
In German TV they even called Roger "the male Steffi Graf"! :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:41 PM
A healthy 19 year old Venus who wasn't anywhere as good as a healthy 21 year old Venus who would have grinded Graf down in 3 sets. :)


Damn, I just good-repped you!

Well, at least your talking of a "grinding 3-setter". Obviously the Graf detractors have become a little bit more wary in the meantime. My posts here in GM seem to have some effect at least by now ...

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Damn, I just good-repped you!

Well, at least your talking of a "grinding 3-setter". Obviously the Graf detractors have become a little bit more wary in the meantime. My posts here in GM seem to have some effect at least by now ...

#1 I'm not a Graf detractor.

#2 I'm not stupid enough to think Venus would completely destroy Graf everytime they would play

#3 Your posts have no effect besides annoyance.

#4 You didn't good-rep me, liar.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:50 PM
#1 I'm not a Graf detractor.

#2 I'm not stupid enough to think Venus would completely destroy Graf everytime they would play

#3 Your posts have no effect besides annoyance.

#4 You didn't good-rep me, liar.


#4: Wait a little bit, sweetie, it takes a little bit time until the rep show here in GM.

#1 and #2 are proof that #3 is wrong.

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:53 PM
#4: Wait a little bit, sweetie, it takes a little bit time until the rep show here in GM.

#1 and #2 are proof that #3 is wrong.

So you think you MOLDED me from a Graf detractor?? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's the funniest shit I've heard in a long time. Thanks for the laugh.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:53 PM
A healthy 19 year old Venus who wasn't anywhere as good as a healthy 21 year old Venus who would have grinded Graf down in 3 sets. :)

I agree here that Venus in 2001 was at her peak especially from Wimbledon through the US Open. The thing that Cali will always bring up is the racquet technology, which defiantly was different. Cali will also use that Wimbledon match as something to brag about, but venus beat Steffi 2 out of 3 times that year and Steffi had WAY more experience as this was only Venus' second full year on tour. Steffi's second full year on tour was no where near as good as Venus'. If Cali can name a player from Graf's generation that hit the ball as hard off the ground and both sides, moved as well as Venus and anyone who could play as offensively on the defense, served anywhere as hard as Venus, was as athletic as Venus, and could blanket the net with their reach, I 'll give him props. Venus in 2001 was much more experienced in winning big matches and slams, whereas Venus in 1999 didn't have anywhere near the confidence in big matches or the experience to win them. In 1999, Venus was pre-peak, whereas Steffi was post-peak. They're are neutral there. Pre-peak is not as good as someone post-peak who is still playing well, because experience counts for a lot. I'd say that Venus would win this match 6-4 7-6 or 6-3 4-6 6-2.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:57 PM
And yes you did just good rep me Cali!! Oops, guess you spoke too soon!! I think that peak Graf vs. peak Venus would be a fun match, and could go either way if they played frequently. Eventually Graf would start string wins together, but Venus would win a few in the beginning. (you got a good rep back!!)

LindsayRulez
Oct 30th, 2005, 06:59 PM
Venus would have killed her I think.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM
I agree here that Venus in 2001 was at her peak especially from Wimbledon through the US Open. The thing that Cali will always bring up is the racquet technology, which defiantly was different. Cali will also use that Wimbledon match as something to brag about, but venus beat Steffi 2 out of 3 times that year ...

Last time I checked Graf beat Venus in Wimbledon AND in Sydney (doing the Willy double there!) in 1999.

new-york
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:01 PM
A def B, B def C doesn't equal A def C. :)

thank you. that does not mean anything. every match is a different story.
u made a really good point cause people tend to act like it was mathematics, but it's not. things are not that predictable.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:02 PM
And yes you did just good rep me Cali!! Oops, guess you spoke too soon!! I think that peak Graf vs. peak Venus would be a fun match, and could go either way if they played frequently. Eventually Graf would start string wins together, but Venus would win a few in the beginning. (you got a good rep back!!)


Of course peak Venus could beat peak Steffi here and there.

Sabby, ASV and Navi did the same.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Last time I checked Graf beat Venus in Wimbledon AND in Sydney (doing the Willy double there!) in 1999.

oops, didn't see that!! okay 2 of 4 matches.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:04 PM
Venus would have killed her I think.


Don't think so.
Peak Venus struggled even against Davenport.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:06 PM
oops, didn't see that!! okay 2 of 4 matches.


Selective memory.

I know that.
From Seles fans.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Don't think so.
Peak Venus struggled even against Davenport.

yeah, but peak venus only lost to lindsay once in many matches!! During her peak, Venus turned her h2h with Lindsay BIG TIME!! Venus owns Lindsay in major finals!!

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Of course peak Venus could beat peak Steffi here and there.

Sabby, ASV and Navi did the same.Venus wins 6 of 10 assuming 2 or 3 of those are on clay. :)

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Selective memory.

I know that.
From Seles fans.

nah, with me I didn't even know they played there that year!! If I would've seen it prior, i would have included it.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:11 PM
yeah, but peak venus only lost to lindsay once in many matches!! During her peak, Venus turned her h2h with Lindsay BIG TIME!! Venus owns Lindsay in major finals!!


Yes, but Venus with all her talent should destroy players like Davenport.
Although I'm no fan of the Willies it makes me sad that overrated players like Davenport, Mauresmo, Sharapova and Capriati were so often able to "steal the show" against really good players like Enna, Clijsters, Serena and Venus.

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Yes, but Venus with all her talent should destroy players like Davenport.
Although I'm no fan of the Willies it makes me sad that overrated players like Davenport, Mauresmo, Sharapova and Capriati were so often able to "steal the show" against really good players like Enna, Clijsters, Serena and Venus.

How did they "steal the show"??

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:14 PM
nah, with me I didn't even know they played there that year!! If I would've seen it prior, i would have included it.


As I said, selective memory.

I don't say that Selesians lie - most of them simply have selective memory.
They forgot facts that are inconvenient against their prejudices.
(Some of them are really mean liars though ... )

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:15 PM
How did they "steal the show"??


By winning slams and tier I tournaments.

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:16 PM
By winning slams and tier I tournaments.

So who stole the show from Steffi?

Geisha
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:20 PM
I think this match would have been very, very close. There are many things you must take into consideration. Steffi never played anybody in 1988 with a serve close to Venus'. I mean, I just finished watching the '91 US Open SF between Seles and Capriati, and their fastest serves were like, 105 MPH, and they were considered powerful in that era. Imagine what it was like three years earlier. So, we don't know how many times Graf would have been able to break Venus. In a rally situation, I think Venus would have won just because she doesn't have as much of a strategy as Graf in '88. Venus sees an opening and goes for it and Graf plays more strategic and waits for the right opportunities to use her forehand and go for a winner. Also, who knows how Venus would have handled a peak-Graf, slice backhand? I know for a fact that in 2001, Venus had less trouble against the big power hitters than she did with Hingis. Take the 6-1, 6-1 loss against Hingis at the Australian Open, and the 2-6, 6-1, 8-6 win over Coetzer. Those matches were against weaker players and involved a lot more thinking. I would give the edge in that situation to Graf, but then we throw in another point. Venus hit the ball hard in 2001, much harder than she does now. Just look at the Acura Classic '01 vs. Seles. I doubt that, if Venus sent booming forehands to Graf's backhand, that Steffi would have had a lot of time to run around her backhand and hit a forehand. Venus' movement is better than Graf's, for sure. I also give Venus the edge in net play. Mental strength? This one is a toughie. There is no doubt that Venus had the most confidence in the world in '01, but Graf probably had more in '88. I think if they went deep into a third set on the biggest stages in tennis, that Venus would break quicker than Graf. So, in conclusion, I think Venus would win this match 6-4, 4-6, 7-6(5). Graf's mental strength would be wretched playing against someone who can return all of her shots, with pace, and hit her serves 110+ MPH, consistently.

Geisha
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:21 PM
So who stole the show from Steffi?

Monica.

Until she was stabbed.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:21 PM
Yes, but Venus with all her talent should destroy players like Davenport.
Although I'm no fan of the Willies it makes me sad that overrated players like Davenport, Mauresmo, Sharapova and Capriati were so often able to "steal the show" against really good players like Enna, Clijsters, Serena and Venus.

Do u know how much it sadden me!! Yeah, I like Lindsay though!! But the others really aren't as good as Venus, Serena, Justine, and Kim. Lindsay's only problem is her movement, which she has worked on quite a bit. The elite players need to make an impression next year. Only Kim has made a huge impression. For Serena, she needs to get in shape and get her technique on the forehand and serve back together, Justine just needs to get healthy, and Venus just needs to continue to build on her confidence and continue to work on her fitness and game. It would be nice next year if the Willies and the Belgians were in the top 4 of the rankings and winning all four slams. Players like Maria and Lindsay are def candidates for 5 and 6, and then the other spots in the top ten can be fought out between the players that hover around there normally.

This is why the 90's were good. The top players were at the top in the rankings throughout the whole decade. I've hoped since the beginning of 2004 that the rankings and tour happenings would follow what happened in the 90's.

LindsayRulez
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:21 PM
Yes, but Venus with all her talent should destroy players like Davenport.
Although I'm no fan of the Willies it makes me sad that overrated players like Davenport, Mauresmo, Sharapova and Capriati were so often able to "steal the show" against really good players like Enna, Clijsters, Serena and Venus.

Sorry but Lindsay is not overrated. Who exactly are you comparing her to?

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:27 PM
I think this match would have been very, very close. There are many things you must take into consideration. Steffi never played anybody in 1988 with a serve close to Venus'. I mean, I just finished watching the '91 US Open SF between Seles and Capriati, and their fastest serves were like, 105 MPH, and they were considered powerful in that era. Imagine what it was like three years earlier. So, we don't know how many times Graf would have been able to break Venus. In a rally situation, I think Venus would have won just because she doesn't have as much of a strategy as Graf in '88. Venus sees an opening and goes for it and Graf plays more strategic and waits for the right opportunities to use her forehand and go for a winner. Also, who knows how Venus would have handled a peak-Graf, slice backhand? I know for a fact that in 2001, Venus had less trouble against the big power hitters than she did with Hingis. Take the 6-1, 6-1 loss against Hingis at the Australian Open, and the 2-6, 6-1, 8-6 win over Coetzer. Those matches were against weaker players and involved a lot more thinking. I would give the edge in that situation to Graf, but then we throw in another point. Venus hit the ball hard in 2001, much harder than she does now. Just look at the Acura Classic '01 vs. Seles. I doubt that, if Venus sent booming forehands to Graf's backhand, that Steffi would have had a lot of time to run around her backhand and hit a forehand. Venus' movement is better than Graf's, for sure. I also give Venus the edge in net play. Mental strength? This one is a toughie. There is no doubt that Venus had the most confidence in the world in '01, but Graf probably had more in '88. I think if they went deep into a third set on the biggest stages in tennis, that Venus would break quicker than Graf. So, in conclusion, I think Venus would win this match 6-4, 4-6, 7-6(5). Graf's mental strength would be wretched playing against someone who can return all of her shots, with pace, and hit her serves 110+ MPH, consistently.

Yes, but you have to take racquet technology into consideration. The racquets that we play with now are WAY more powerful than those of the late 80's and early 90's.

The thing is Steffi never budged an inch in big matches. She didn't give you anything and made you hit huge shots to beat her. The thing is though, Venus has those shots to beat her. It would be fun to see this match though!!

Geisha
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:34 PM
Yes, but you have to take racquet technology into consideration. The racquets that we play with now are WAY more powerful than those of the late 80's and early 90's.

The thing is Steffi never budged an inch in big matches. She didn't give you anything and made you hit huge shots to beat her. The thing is though, Venus has those shots to beat her. It would be fun to see this match though!!

The rackets were part of '88 and '01. Steffi Graf of '88 played with her racket against Venus of '01. Why don't we just change the height of the two? And the weight? Or make Venus drunk? :tape:

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:40 PM
I think this match would have been very, very close. There are many things you must take into consideration. Steffi never played anybody in 1988 with a serve close to Venus'. I mean, I just finished watching the '91 US Open SF between Seles and Capriati, and their fastest serves were like, 105 MPH, and they were considered powerful in that era. Imagine what it was like three years earlier. So, we don't know how many times Graf would have been able to break Venus. In a rally situation, I think Venus would have won just because she doesn't have as much of a strategy as Graf in '88. Venus sees an opening and goes for it and Graf plays more strategic and waits for the right opportunities to use her forehand and go for a winner. Also, who knows how Venus would have handled a peak-Graf, slice backhand? I know for a fact that in 2001, Venus had less trouble against the big power hitters than she did with Hingis. Take the 6-1, 6-1 loss against Hingis at the Australian Open, and the 2-6, 6-1, 8-6 win over Coetzer. Those matches were against weaker players and involved a lot more thinking. I would give the edge in that situation to Graf, but then we throw in another point. Venus hit the ball hard in 2001, much harder than she does now. Just look at the Acura Classic '01 vs. Seles. I doubt that, if Venus sent booming forehands to Graf's backhand, that Steffi would have had a lot of time to run around her backhand and hit a forehand. Venus' movement is better than Graf's, for sure. ...

This last sentence destroyed all your credibility here.
:rolleyes:

Geisha
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:41 PM
This last sentence destroyed all your credibility here.
:rolleyes:

Venus' movement is better than Graf's. Even as a 25 year-old. :worship:

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Monica.

Until she was stabbed.


Seles didn't "steal" anything.

We don't want to compare her with dwarfs like Davenport, Sharapova, Capriati and Sharapova, do we?

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Sorry but Lindsay is not overrated. Who exactly are you comparing her to?


OK, forget that "overrated". Davenport is a very good player who made the most of her talents. What I meant is that more talented players like the Willies and the Belgians SHOULD be #1 and not - for years - good old Lindz.

BTW, the "overrated" stays with JenCap, Momo and Screamerova though.
Players like these NEVER should be #1 in the WTA rankings.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:49 PM
The rackets were part of '88 and '01. Steffi Graf of '88 played with her racket against Venus of '01. Why don't we just change the height of the two? And the weight? Or make Venus drunk? :tape:


No need to do this.
Steffi of 88 with her height and her racket of 88 would suffice.

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:50 PM
The rackets were part of '88 and '01. Steffi Graf of '88 played with her racket against Venus of '01. Why don't we just change the height of the two? And the weight? Or make Venus drunk? :tape:

Well height can't be changed. Weight can be, but ask any body who teaches tennis and they would say that in tennis as well as golf the racquets and clubs now are much better and more powerful than back then. Not to mention that with the movement issue, don't forget by Cali's standard that Venus has more reach than Steffi and covers more court with her long legs and big strides. Be careful with your word choice with him, because is he sees something that isn't politically correct!!

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:51 PM
Venus' movement is better than Graf's. Even as a 25 year-old. :worship:


Take an old video and watch Graf changing directions on the court.
Watch it in slow-motion. :worship:

Compared to this Venus changing directions is like a huge container ship turning around ...

K-Dog
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:54 PM
The rackets were part of '88 and '01. Steffi Graf of '88 played with her racket against Venus of '01. Why don't we just change the height of the two? And the weight? Or make Venus drunk? :tape:

btw, i'm siding with u in that i think that Venus would win, but there are some arguements that need to be thought of as well!!

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:56 PM
I'm still waiting on my good rep Cali.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Oct 30th, 2005, 07:59 PM
Peak Venus def Peak Graf 6-4 6-7 7-5

VeeReeDavJCap81
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:02 PM
I find it funny that Cali uses Venus' losses to Graf to support his argument. Venus wasn't even close to the same player she was from 2000-2002.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:03 PM
I'm still waiting on my good rep Cali.


You just got your rep!

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:05 PM
Peak Venus def Peak Graf 6-4 6-7 7-5


In your Venusian parallel universe maybe ....

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:09 PM
I find it funny that Cali uses Venus' losses to Graf to support his argument. Venus wasn't even close to the same player she was from 2000-2002.


In 1999 Venus was 19.
In 2000 20.
What happened in winter 99/00 ...? :confused:

You don't want to tell me with a straight face that 99 Graf was closer to her peak (87-89, 93-96) than 99 Venus to hers (00-02)?

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:12 PM
How can we believe anything you say Cali, liar. If you have to lie about giving me a good rep then you'll lie about anything.

VeeReeDavJCap81
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:12 PM
In 1999 Venus was 19.
In 2000 20.
What happened in winter 99/00 ...? :confused:

You don't want to tell me with a straight face that 99 Graf was closer to her peak (87-89, 93-96) than 99 Venus to hers (00-02)?

You're kidding right? Take Serena for example, in 2001 lost in 3 straight GS QF...only to a year later win 4 straight grandslams. Players can DEFINITELY change drastically within a year. "Dumbo"

gmak
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:32 PM
oh my god, this thread is hilarious! :lol:

i'm not a fan of venus or graf, but a peak venus would beat a peak graf in straight sets! ;)

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:36 PM
How can we believe anything you say Cali, liar. If you have to lie about giving me a good rep then you'll lie about anything.


I confused you with "K-Dog". He got the good rep.

All these childish names .....

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:40 PM
You're kidding right? Take Serena for example, in 2001 lost in 3 straight GS QF...only to a year later win 4 straight grandslams. Players can DEFINITELY change drastically within a year. "Dumbo"


I tell you what changed. In 2000

a) Graf was retired

b) Hingis took a mental nose-dive (never recuperated from her FO melt-down)

c) Davenport started to struggle with her injuries.

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I confused you with "K-Dog". He got the good rep.

All these childish names .....

You worship Steffi with the naivety of a child.

Calimero377
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:46 PM
You worship Steffi with the naivety of a child.


No, with the eagerness of a child and the wisdom of a philosopher ....

Knizzle
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:48 PM
No, with the eagerness of a child and the wisdom of a philosopher ....

And on that note, I'm through with this discussion. :lol:

VeeReeDavJCap81
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:49 PM
I tell you what changed. In 2000

a) Graf was retired

b) Hingis took a mental nose-dive (never recuperated from her FO melt-down)

c) Davenport started to struggle with her injuries.

a)I'm not going there on this one, because we could debate this all day

b)Hingis made the finals of the US Open that same year, AND the Australian the following year. She didn't start going downhill until 2001. Plus Venus QF win over Martina in 2000 at Wimbledon gave her all the confidence in the world and she was unstoppable until after the Olympics.

c)Lindsay must not have struggled TOO much with injuries that year(2000), considering she was in 3 grandslam finals.

All in all, you're a hater who refuses to give Venus Williams credit because you know she is/was a threat to your precious tucan.

gmak
Oct 30th, 2005, 08:49 PM
i'm sorry but lindsay and martina were very competitive in 2000 as well :rolleyes:

DA FOREHAND
Oct 31st, 2005, 12:47 PM
Venus would win, I dont think Stefii would handle the power of Venus right now.......... The game of Steffi was so smooth, comparing to Venus´s game actually, so Venus in maybe straight sets


If Venus were to win this match it wouldn't be by overpowering Steffi. Steffi has a good record -v- Lindsay, and Lindsay's strokes are just as hard as Venus', and she has a better serve.


If the contest were on carpet, clay and rebound ace Steffi wins. HC Venus, grass Steffi.

DA FOREHAND
Oct 31st, 2005, 12:53 PM
Venus' movement is better than Graf's. Even as a 25 year-old. :worship:


This is a joke right? :rolleyes: I mean I love Venus and all her attributes, grace of movement (where it pertains to tennis) isn't one of her strong suits, court coverage is.

Veritas
Oct 31st, 2005, 01:06 PM
Graf of 1988 versus Venus of 2001

No contest. Steffi would win, whether it'd be in 2 or 3 sets. She won all 4 Slams that year - a rare feat - while Venus couldn't even reach the 2nd week at RG.

Personally, I'd bring up Venus of 2000. Of course, Steffi of '88 would still win, but the margin would be a lot smaller, especially when we bring up the 35-match-winning streak Venus enjoyed.

Stamp Paid
Oct 31st, 2005, 01:08 PM
some of yall have been here too long....... :ras:

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 31st, 2005, 01:47 PM
Peak Venus def Peak Graf 6-4 6-7 7-5

Are you sure????

How old was Venus in 1988??? :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Oct 31st, 2005, 01:52 PM
some of yall have been here too long....... :ras:


Your sig is hilarious.

Because Serena is NOT better than my favourite tennis player ...

Calimero377
Oct 31st, 2005, 01:59 PM
55eDavJCap81]a)I'm not going there on this one, because we could debate this all day

b)Hingis made the finals of the US Open that same year, AND the Australian the following year. She didn't start going downhill until 2001. Plus Venus QF win over Martina in 2000 at Wimbledon gave her all the confidence in the world and she was unstoppable until after the Olympics.
...[/QUOTE]


Hingis was a head-case since FO 99.
Graf broke her heart that day ...

Warriorroger
Nov 4th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Just watched the Steffi - Venus Wimbledon match again and that match is very significant for this thread.

We talk about peak Graf against peak Williams, that will never happen. That match showed not peak Graf against not peak Williams and it's one of the best women's matches I have ever seen. It still is a great match even for today's standards.

Graf won and so would peak Graf against peak Williams. Williams played great in that match, served, and returned harder in that match, but Steffi played smarter. Her backhand was giving Venus a lot of trouble and so did that wicked forehand. Graf has the mental edge and that is something Williams and neither of today's playes have. There are only a couple of players who have had (Seles- Evert-Graf) that, but no one in the present in the women's game has that.

Venus hit clean winners, but she never outhit Steffi from the back. The winners Venus hit were caused bye her amazing reach and never in one-to-one forehand battles. It is one of the best Graf matches I have ever seen. The outcome in the fantasy match will be close, but Graf in her peak is mentally unstoppable and in the women's game: mental does it..

Graf wins: 6/2, 5/7, 6/4

Calimero377
Nov 4th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Just watched the Steffi - Venus Wimbledon match again and that match is very significant for this thread.

We talk about peak Graf against peak Williams, that will never happen. That match showed not peak Graf against not peak Williams and it's one of the best women's matches I have ever seen. It still is a great match even for today's standards.

Graf won and so would peak Graf against peak Williams. Williams played great in that match, served, and returned harder in that match, but Steffi played smarter. Her backhand was giving Venus a lot of trouble and so did that wicked forehand. Graf has the mental edge and that is something Williams and neither of today's playes have. There are only a couple of players who have had (Seles- Evert-Graf) that, but no one in the present in the women's game has that.

Venus hit clean winners, but she never outhit Steffi from the back. The winners Venus hit were caused bye her amazing reach and never in one-to-one forehand battles. It is one of the best Graf matches I have ever seen. The outcome in the fantasy match will be close, but Graf in her peak is mentally unstoppable and in the women's game: mental does it..

Graf wins: 6/2, 5/7, 6/4


It was most probably Graf's best match post-USO96.

Her best slam matches were
FO 88 final (Zvereva)
Wim 88 final (Navi) :worship:
AO 89 semis (Sabby) :worship:
Wim 89 4th round (Seles)
Wim 89 final (Navi) :worship:
Wim 92 semis (Sabby)
Wim 92 final (Seles) :worship:
AO 94 final (ASV) :worship:
Wim 95 quarters (MJF) :worship:
Wim 96 quarters (Novi)
Wim 96 final (ASV)
USO 96 final (Seles) :worship:
Wim 99 quarters (V. Williams)


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Warriorroger
Nov 4th, 2005, 09:12 PM
It was most probably Graf's best match post-USO96.

Her best slam matches were
FO 88 final (Zvereva)
Wim 88 final (Navi) :worship:
AO 89 semis (Sabby) :worship:
Wim 89 4th round (Seles)
Wim 89 final (Navi) :worship:
Wim 92 semis (Sabby)
Wim 92 final (Seles) :worship:
AO 94 final (ASV) :worship:
Wim 95 quarters (MJF) :worship:
Wim 96 quarters (Novi)
Wim 96 final (ASV)
USO 96 final (Seles) :worship:
Wim 99 quarters (V. Williams)


:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

In terms of tennistalent that match stands on top IMO. Steffi showed all she got, the second stroke of the match was a topsspinbackhand and her volleys in the match were better than ever.

I never liked her matches with Monica Seles, boring, Steffi herself played one-dimensional against Seles. I liked Steffi against real ball artists like Martina Navratilova- Gabriela Sabatini- Yajuk Basuki- Conchita Martinez, these players never dominated Steffi, but can do really something with the ball, instead of only pounding over the net. Steffi looked good in those matches. Never liked her matches with Monica Seles - Mary Pierce - the Maleeva Sisters - Mary Joe Fernandez (boring) - Lindsay Davenport.

[Roger Federer and Steffi Graf
The greatest players ever

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2005, 09:25 PM
In terms of tennistalent that match stands on top IMO. Steffi showed all she got, the second stroke of the match was a topsspinbackhand and her volleys in the match were better than ever.

I never liked her matches with Seles, boring, Steffi herself played one-dimensional against Seles. I liked Steffi against real ball artists like Martina Navratilova- Gabriela Sabatini- Yajuk Basuki- Conchita Martinez, these players never dominated Steffi, but can do really something with the ball, instead of only pounding over the net. Steffi looked good in those matches. Never liked her matches with Monica Seles - Mary Pierce - the Maleeva Sisters - Mary Joe Fernandez (boring) - Lindsay Davenport.

I am soooo with you on this post! While I liked to watch the Graf/Seles match-up because Graf actually cracked some of her all-time best forehands against an opponent who gave her a hard flat ball all the time. You could also see that Steffi relished being on court against Monica. You are right, though, the full spectrum of how Steffi kept harnassing the dimensions in her game was never more beautiful than when playing "ball artists" (I like that term) and she was constantly made to wrest control from this wider range of shotmaking. The one match-up that I never could stand, and unfortunately have the most tapes of, is her head-to-head with Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. I think it has something to do with how I feel when I'm across the net from someone who pushes and retrieves all the time. You know the type of player- plays not to lose, versus playing to win.

Warriorroger
Nov 5th, 2005, 09:12 AM
I am soooo with you on this post! While I liked to watch the Graf/Seles match-up because Graf actually cracked some of her all-time best forehands against an opponent who gave her a hard flat ball all the time. You could also see that Steffi relished being on court against Monica. You are right, though, the full spectrum of how Steffi kept harnassing the dimensions in her game was never more beautiful than when playing "ball artists" (I like that term) and she was constantly made to wrest control from this wider range of shotmaking. The one match-up that I never could stand, and unfortunately have the most tapes of, is her head-to-head with Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. I think it has something to do with how I feel when I'm across the net from someone who pushes and retrieves all the time. You know the type of player- plays not to lose, versus playing to win.

Thank you. I didn't like the Sanchez Vicario matches either. I have deleted all those matches, especially the ones on clay.

These would be my favorite match ups:

Clay: Steffi Graf vs Gabriela Sabatini
Indoor: Steffi Graf vs Martina Navratilova
Hard: Steffi Graf vs Conchita Martinez
Grass: Steffi Graf mixed with Roger Federer against Sampras and Sabatini :bounce:

Geisha
Nov 5th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Hingis was a head-case since FO 99.
Graf broke her heart that day ...

You've got something with this match and you have no facts to back it up. She never won a Slam because she didn't have the power to beat the power players, not because Graf beat her one time.

alfajeffster
Nov 5th, 2005, 11:53 AM
Thank you. I didn't like the Sanchez Vicario matches either. I have deleted all those matches, especially the ones on clay.

These would be my favorite match ups:

Clay: Steffi Graf vs Gabriela Sabatini
Indoor: Steffi Graf vs Martina Navratilova
Hard: Steffi Graf vs Conchita Martinez
Grass: Steffi Graf mixed with Roger Federer against Sampras and Sabatini :bounce:

re: her matches with Conchita Martinez, it's a shame that Conchita never really got herself together for a long enough period of time to make their matches interesting. She had so much going for her, and when she put it all together, she could bother pretty much anybody.