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*JR*
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:32 PM
By RALPH PETERS (New York Post)

November 26, 2006 -- A RASH of pop prophets tell us that Muslims in Europe are reproducing so fast and European societies are so weak and listless that, before you know it, the continent will become "Eurabia," with all those topless gals on the Riviera wearing veils.

Well, maybe not.

The notion that continental Europeans, who are world-champion haters, will let the impoverished Muslim immigrants they confine to ghettos take over their societies and extend the caliphate from the Amalfi Coast to Amsterdam has it exactly wrong.

The endangered species isn't the "peace loving" European lolling in his or her welfare state, but the continent's Muslims immigrants - and their multi-generation descendents - who were foolish enough to imagine that Europeans would share their toys.

In fact, Muslims are hardly welcome to pick up the trash on Europe's playgrounds.

Don't let Europe's current round of playing pacifist dress-up fool you: This is the continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing, the happy-go-lucky slice of humanity that brought us such recent hits as the Holocaust and Srebrenica.

THE historical patterns are clear: When Europeans feel sufficiently threatened - even when the threat's concocted nonsense - they don't just react, they over-react with stunning ferocity. One of their more-humane (and frequently employed) techniques has been ethnic cleansing.

And Europeans won't even need to re-write "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" with an Islamist theme - real Muslims zealots provide Europe's bigots with all the propaganda they need. Al Qaeda and its wannabe fans are the worst thing that could have happened to Europe's Muslims. Europe hasn't broken free of its historical addictions - we're going to see Europe's history reprised on meth.

The year 1492 wasn't just big for Columbus. It's also when Spain expelled its culturally magnificent Jewish community en masse - to be followed shortly by the Moors, Muslims who had been on the Iberian Peninsula for more than 800 years.

Jews got the boot elsewhere in Europe, too - if they weren't just killed on the spot. When Shakespeare wrote "The Merchant of Venice," it's a safe bet he'd never met a Jew. The Chosen People were long-gone from Jolly Olde England.

From the French expulsion of the Huguenots right down to the last century's massive ethnic cleansings, Europeans have never been shy about showing "foreigners and subversives" the door.

And Europe's Muslims don't even have roots, by historical standards. For the Europeans, they're just the detritus of colonial history. When Europeans feel sufficiently provoked and threatened - a few serious terrorist attacks could do it - Europe's Muslims will be lucky just to be deported.

Sound impossible? Have the Europeans become too soft for that sort of thing? Has narcotic socialism destroyed their ability to hate? Is their atheism a prelude to total surrender to faith-intoxicated Muslim jihadis?

The answer to all of the above questions is a booming "No!" The Europeans have enjoyed a comfy ride for the last 60 years - but the very fact that they don't want it to stop increases their rage and sense of being besieged by Muslim minorities they've long refused to assimilate (and which no longer want to assimilate).

WE don't need to gloss over the many Muslim acts of barbarism down the centuries to recognize that the Europeans are just better at the extermination process. From the massacre of all Muslims and Jews (and quite a few Eastern Christians) when the Crusaders reached Jerusalem in 1099 to the massacre of all the Jews in Buda (not yet attached to Pest across the Danube) when the "liberating" Habsburg armies retook the citadel at the end of the 17th century, Europeans have just been better organized for genocide.

It's the difference between the messy Turkish execution of the Armenian genocide and the industrial efficiency of the Holocaust. Hey, when you love your work, you get good at it.

Far from enjoying the prospect of taking over Europe by having babies, Europe's Muslims are living on borrowed time. When a third of French voters have demonstrated their willingness to vote for Jean-Marie Le Pen's National Front - a party that makes the Ku Klux Klan seem like Human Rights Watch - all predictions of Europe going gently into that good night are surreal.

I have no difficulty imagining a scenario in which U.S. Navy ships are at anchor and U.S. Marines have gone ashore at Brest, Bremerhaven or Bari to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe's Muslims. After all, we were the only ones to do anything about the slaughter of Muslims in the Balkans. And even though we botched it, our effort in Iraq was meant to give the Middle East's Muslims a last chance to escape their self-inflicted misery.

AND we're lucky. The United States attracts the quality. American Muslims have a higher income level than our national average. We hear about the handful of rabble-rousers, but more of our fellow Americans who happen to be Muslims are doctors, professors and entrepreneurs.

And the American dream is still alive and well, thanks: Even the newest taxi driver stumbling over his English grammar knows he can truly become an American.

But European Muslims can't become French or Dutch or Italian or German. Even if they qualify for a passport, they remain second-class citizens. On a good day. And they're supposed to take over the continent that's exported more death than any other?

All the copy-cat predictions of a Muslim takeover of Europe not only ignore history and Europe's ineradicable viciousness, but do a serious disservice by exacerbating fear and hatred. And when it comes to hatred, trust me: The Europeans don't need our help.

The jobless and hopeless kids in the suburbs may burn a couple of cars, but we'll always have Paris.

gentenaire
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Will this anti-Europism ever stop? You all hate us because you're jealous of us.

Kart
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Comedy article.

It is a joke right ? :scratch:

Martian Willow
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:50 PM
Given that its the political aspects of Islamism people object to, the most obvious recent parrallel would seem to be All-American McCarthyism...so stfu, k. :)

Apoleb
Nov 26th, 2006, 08:52 PM
The article is clearly exagerating stuff, but nonetheless, it raises an important point: the conditions of Muslims in the US is far better than what it is in Europe, which is kind of ironic. The comments of the Vatican and the way Europe is trying to hinder the civil rights and religious rights of Muslims are only making things a lot worse between Europeans and Muslims, and it's true that there's also a very strong rightist European reaction. It is something to worry about when Le Pen gets into the final round and recieves 30% of the vote.

Diam's
Nov 26th, 2006, 09:00 PM
It is something to worry about when Le Pen gets into the final round and recieves 30% of the vote.

I don't know where you get your numbers from but he actually received 16,86 % (1st round) and then 17,79 % of the votes (2nd round).

Apoleb
Nov 26th, 2006, 09:03 PM
I don't know where you get your numbers from but he actually received 16,86 % (1st round) and then 17,79 % of the votes (2nd round).

I got it from the article. He says a third of the French population is willing to vote for Le Pen, which means roughly 33%. I don't know if he's relying on the polls for future elections. The exact numbers anyway aren't the core of the point, so let's not make it as such. The fact remains that Le Pen got through to the second round, and for him to get 16.86% in the first round doesn't make it any less worrying.

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 26th, 2006, 09:06 PM
the article is ruined by many of the stupid comments it makes

Diam's
Nov 26th, 2006, 09:12 PM
I got it from the article. He says a third of the French population is willing to vote for Le Pen, which means roughly 33%. I don't know if he's relying on the polls for future elections. The exact numbers anyway aren't the core of the point, so let's not make it as such. The fact remains that Le Pen got through to the second round, and for him to get 16.86% in the first round doesn't make it any less worrying.

OK I thought you were talking about the last presidential elections ... but you are right the exact numbers aren't really important after all, especially for the NY Post.
http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/politique/20061124.FAP6240.html?1246

Tom13
Nov 27th, 2006, 12:26 PM
:help:
And then american posters don't stop talking about anti-americanism among europeans. :lol:
This is not just anti-europeanism. This is plain hatred.
Is this consider an earnest newspaper?

*JR*
Nov 27th, 2006, 12:40 PM
:help:
And then american posters don't stop talking about anti-americanism among europeans. :lol:
This is not just anti-europeanism. This is plain hatred.
Is this consider an earnest newspaper?
Its a Rupert Murdoch owned tabloid. ;)

Sam L
Nov 27th, 2006, 12:51 PM
OK I thought you were talking about the last presidential elections ... but you are right the exact numbers aren't really important after all, especially for the NY Post.
http://permanent.nouvelobs.com/politique/20061124.FAP6240.html?1246

17% vouloir voter pour lui? I'm surprised he's still relatively popular. But hopefully Royal will win anyway.

As for this article, I think it actually raises some important issues. Like this:

When Europeans feel sufficiently provoked and threatened - a few serious terrorist attacks could do it - Europe's Muslims will be lucky just to be deported.

Of course this is precisely what I fear. Many people on this board think I'm anti-muslim but in reality I'm not. I just think that Islamic extremism even if by a small minority will lead to the rise of the right in countries like USA, Europe etc... So the onus is on muslims to integrate with the western societies and compromise rather than "it's our way or no way". Because if Islam uses force (like they're doing now) the west will react like the article said.

azdaja
Nov 27th, 2006, 12:51 PM
i like this article. it can be seen as anti-european, but i don't think it's hateful. in fact, it is directed against certain hateful trends in europe.

Sam L
Nov 27th, 2006, 12:54 PM
i like this article. it can be seen as anti-european, but i don't think it's hateful. in fact, it is directed against certain hateful trends in europe.
Hateful trends appear because they have an excuse to appear. Are there hateful trends toward Buddhists? Think!

azdaja
Nov 27th, 2006, 01:12 PM
Hateful trends appear because they have an excuse to appear. Are there hateful trends toward Buddhists? Think!
the article mentions this here:
real Muslims zealots provide Europe's bigots with all the propaganda they need
thus, europe's bigots can pretend they are defending europe's civilisation while in reality they are defending a different european tradition, the one that this article very accurately describes imo.

also, you say that muslims should integrate, but that's much more difficult than some people think and this is another european problem:
And the American dream is still alive and well, thanks: Even the newest taxi driver stumbling over his English grammar knows he can truly become an American.
this doesn't really work in europe.

Sam L
Nov 27th, 2006, 01:23 PM
also, you say that muslims should integrate, but that's much more difficult than some people think

Why? Is it difficult for everyone or just muslims? Because I know quite of few Asians, Aussies and other non-Europeans who've lived in Europe.

and this is another european problem:

this doesn't really work in europe.

So what are you saying that Europeans are very particular about the grammar of their languages ? :confused:

When I say integration I mean things like learning the languages as best as one could, losing things like burqas and wearing what normal Europeans would wear and generally NOT attracting attention to one's self. But we seem to keep seeing articles pop up every day about muslims having one problem or another with European/western society.

Lord Nelson
Nov 27th, 2006, 01:53 PM
also, you say that muslims should integrate, but that's much more difficult than some people think and this is another european problem:

this doesn't really work in europe.
Yes islam does make it difficult but I don't agree with your last sentence. Buddhists immigrants from Vietnam have blended in French society. Same goes with Hindus in UK. But Muslims in general don't. And that includes people from secular places like Kosovo. Kosovars form an important community here in Switzerland but many of them don't blend in Swiss society. Some say that Portuguese and Spaniards blend in better becasue they are European. But guess what, so are Albanians.

Sam L
Nov 27th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Yes islam does make it difficult but I don't agree with your last sentence. Buddhists immigrants from Vietnam have blended in French society. Same goes with Hindus in UK. But Muslims in general don't. And that includes people from secular places like Kosovo. Kosovars form an important community here in Switzerland but many of them don't blend in Swiss society. Some say that Portuguese and Spaniards blend in better becasue they are European. But guess what, so are Albanians.

Well well well, I wonder what azdaja has to say about this. :)

Are you in Switzerland Lord Nelson? :confused:

azdaja
Nov 27th, 2006, 02:17 PM
Why? Is it difficult for everyone or just muslims? Because I know quite of few Asians, Aussies and other non-Europeans who've lived in Europe.
it's difficult even for europeans moving from one country to the other, let alone for outsiders. in fact, it can be difficult even if you don't move from your country.


So what are you saying that Europeans are very particular about the grammar of their languages ? :confused:

When I say integration I mean things like learning the languages as best as one could, losing things like burqas and wearing what normal Europeans would wear and generally NOT attracting attention to one's self. But we seem to keep seeing articles pop up every day about muslims having one problem or another with European/western society.
i know a lot of people who were born and raised in austria, speak german and not the language of their parents or grandparents and they are still not considered austrians by a lot of people here simply because of the colour of their skin, for example.

i mean, it's different from country to country and things are getting better, but in europe almost every nation has a state and then there are minorities and being a minority in europe can be difficult. this includes even the autochtonous minorities, the ones that have lived here for centuries (i'm sure you have heard of a lot of ethnic conflicts in different parts of europe), and also immigrants.

i'm not saying there are no problems within some immigant communities and other minorities, but that's just a part of the problem, a rather small part in comparison imo.

azdaja
Nov 27th, 2006, 02:22 PM
Yes islam does make it difficult but I don't agree with your last sentence. Buddhists immigrants from Vietnam have blended in French society. Same goes with Hindus in UK. But Muslims in general don't. And that includes people from secular places like Kosovo. Kosovars form an important community here in Switzerland but many of them don't blend in Swiss society. Some say that Portuguese and Spaniards blend in better becasue they are European. But guess what, so are Albanians.
i know in person a few bosnian muslims who did integrate perfectly. on the other hand there are immigrants from other parts of europe who didn't integrate and don't seem particularly interested in doing that, since they only came here for work and will return to their homecountries when they retire.

Tom13
Nov 27th, 2006, 03:28 PM
i like this article. it can be seen as anti-european, but i don't think it's hateful. in fact, it is directed against certain hateful trends in europe.

I think this article is total bullshit. You say it's directed against right-wing extremist but nowhere in the text he speaks about far-right europeans, he just says Europeans. So we all share the same hatred. He targets europeans as a whole, like all the haters.


Don't let Europe's current round of playing pacifist dress-up fool you: This is the continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing, the happy-go-lucky slice of humanity that brought us such recent hits as the Holocaust and Srebrenica.

This is the continent. :lol: really funny. What about Cambodja, Rwanda, native americans and so many other examples outside Europe.


THE historical patterns are clear: When Europeans feel sufficiently threatened - even when the threat's concocted nonsense - they don't just react, they over-react with stunning ferocity. One of their more-humane (and frequently employed) techniques has been ethnic cleansing.

Yes that's in our genes. We have always react this way and we will always.


The year 1492 wasn't just big for Columbus. It's also when Spain expelled its culturally magnificent Jewish community en masse - to be followed shortly by the Moors, Muslims who had been on the Iberian Peninsula for more than 800 years.


Well the major problems are his references to historical facts like the crusades and things like this. Come on. The mentalities haven't evolved at all since these times? :rolleyes: And even at these times, who has welcomed this spanish jews? Venise and Turkey. Well so even at that time all europeans were not intolerants.

Europeans are the world-champion haters. Yes of course. Africans are the world-champions of laziness, asians are the world-champions of cruelty and americans, the world-champions of stupidity. :tape: If that's not hatred and racism. What's that???

This is a terrible article. I think it's possible to whrite articles on a good subject like racism and intolerances in Europe without all these generalisations. He's not better than the people (well according to him, europeans in general) he prentend to denounce.

Jorje286 The article is clearly exagerating stuff, but nonetheless, it raises an important point: the conditions of Muslims in the US is far better than what it is in Europe, which is kind of ironic.

Maybe but it's difficult to compare with USA and Canada with their choosen-immigration. Anyway that's true there is discriminations in Europe.

Renaissance
Nov 27th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Yes islam does make it difficult but I don't agree with your last sentence. Buddhists immigrants from Vietnam have blended in French society. Same goes with Hindus in UK. But Muslims in general don't. And that includes people from secular places like Kosovo. Kosovars form an important community here in Switzerland but many of them don't blend in Swiss society. Some say that Portuguese and Spaniards blend in better becasue they are European. But guess what, so are Albanians.
I don't make the same observations.
Hindus don't blend well in United Kingdom,they are discreet and have good relationship with british society but they stay apart.
In France Portuguese community don't blend better than north africans (muslims) ,ok the second generation has french first name but they prefer marry with one of their communauty .Same case for Jews.
Interracial,interreligion,or inter-nationalities weddings show us how the community is integrated in the society and adhered to its values.

azdaja
Nov 27th, 2006, 03:52 PM
I think this article is total bullshit. You say it's directed against right-wing extremist but nowhere in the text he speaks about far-right europeans, he just says Europeans. So we all share the same hatred. He targets europeans as a whole, like all the haters.
well, the article is far from perfect, it's from a tabloid after all, but there is little doubt that europe has been the most violent part of the world over past few centuries and europeans successfully used organised violence on other continents as well, so yes, i do think we can talk about "europeans" in this case. of course a lot of things changed, but this is also a part of our history. something that we don't want to repeat, of course, but the article is right when it says that the campaign against europe's muslims stands in that tradition. it's something to think about.

timafi
Nov 27th, 2006, 04:00 PM
what a load of bullshit:rolleyes:
why don't you write about the police shooting black men for no damn reason JR in the US like this poor guy this wend
stfu
as for Murdoch nothing surprises me from that sob
he got involved with Simpson it's one more proof that this man is trash

Warrior
Nov 27th, 2006, 04:07 PM
By RALPH PETERS (New York Post)


I have no difficulty imagining a scenario in which U.S. Navy ships are at anchor and U.S. Marines have gone ashore at Brest, Bremerhaven or Bari to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe's Muslims. After all, we were the only ones to do anything about the slaughter of Muslims in the Balkans. And even though we botched it, our effort in Iraq was meant to give the Middle East's Muslims a last chance to escape their self-inflicted misery.



Oh really?

http://www.plp.org/TheCommunist2/kosovowar.html

Lord Nelson
Nov 27th, 2006, 06:04 PM
I don't make the same observations.
Hindus don't blend well in United Kingdom,they are discreet and have good relationship with british society but they stay apart.
In France Portuguese community don't blend better than north africans (muslims) ,ok the second generation has french first name but they prefer marry with one of their communauty .Same case for Jews.
Interracial,interreligion,or inter-nationalities weddings show us how the community is integrated in the society and adhered to its values.
Well compared to Muslims, The Hindus and Portuguese integrate better in general. But yeah that is not always the case. In Fiji, there is tension between Fiji people and Indians.
You say that Portuguese community don't blend better than North Africans? Hey man I go regularly to France and I can say that this is not so. North Africans don't blend well. I hate to say this but this is what I see. I can tell that you are a Muslim, perhaps even a Frenchman of Arab origin. But I said in general. A lot of Arabs such as yourself integrate well.

*JR*
Nov 27th, 2006, 06:07 PM
what a load of bullshit:rolleyes:
why don't you write about the police shooting black men for no damn reason JR in the US like this poor guy this wend
stfu
as for Murdoch nothing surprises me from that sob
he got involved with Simpson it's one more proof that this man is trashI didn't "endorse" the article, I merely posted it as a "counterpoint" to the usual 2 sided debate here:

1) The Muslims will ovarun Europe.
2) The Muslims will eventually blend into Europe.

And let this 3rd view (a European backlash) be aired out. Re. the police shooting (I presume you mean the one of the guy about 2B married) I waited until I had a thought to add that hadn't been yet (the way the shots could have killed others in houses they hit, etc.)

And I also noted a few days ago (in the UCLA taser thread) that it was murder to shoot RVD's cousin for merely attempting to flee a raid based on suspected credit card fraud. My posting record on the use of unwarranted force (be it in Iraq or American cities) is pretty consistent.

Apoleb
Nov 28th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Why? Is it difficult for everyone or just muslims? Because I know quite of few Asians, Aussies and other non-Europeans who've lived in Europe.

Yes. because Blacks are so well integrated in French society.



So what are you saying that Europeans are very particular about the grammar of their languages ? :confused:



Statehood in most European countries is largely built on strong nationalistic principles. You aren't "German," "French" or whatever, unless you strongly adhere to their cultural traditions, speak the language without any accent..etc. Ofcourse, very few people will make the race/colour link, but it is also a very important factor, that's why the author is right when he says foreigners in general are seen as second class citizens. This is not the case in many historically immigration-heavy countries like the US or Canada. This issue is very much related to the strength of nationalism as an ideology in Europe, and seemingly, Europe hasn't yet totally rid itself of the nationalism bug. So it really goes without saying that this is a huge factor when it comes ot the integration of Muslims as well as other immigrants in European societies.

Ofcourse, I don't agree with all the crap he says about Europeans being the most ruthless, and it's quite ludicrous to bring the Crusade which happened in the 11th century as some kind of evidence. The problem back then was religious fanatacism, now it's about nationalism/racism.

Sam L
Nov 28th, 2006, 12:42 AM
it's difficult even for europeans moving from one country to the other, let alone for outsiders. in fact, it can be difficult even if you don't move from your country.


i know a lot of people who were born and raised in austria, speak german and not the language of their parents or grandparents and they are still not considered austrians by a lot of people here simply because of the colour of their skin, for example.

i mean, it's different from country to country and things are getting better, but in europe almost every nation has a state and then there are minorities and being a minority in europe can be difficult. this includes even the autochtonous minorities, the ones that have lived here for centuries (i'm sure you have heard of a lot of ethnic conflicts in different parts of europe), and also immigrants.

i'm not saying there are no problems within some immigant communities and other minorities, but that's just a part of the problem, a rather small part in comparison imo.

Yes. because Blacks are so well integrated in French society.





Statehood in most European countries is largely built on strong nationalistic principles. You aren't "German," "French" or whatever, unless you strongly adhere to their cultural traditions, speak the language without any accent..etc. Ofcourse, very few people will make the race/colour link, but it is also a very important factor, that's why the author is right when he says foreigners in general are seen as second class citizens. This is not the case in many historically immigration-heavy countries like the US or Canada. This issue is very much related to the strength of nationalism as an ideology in Europe, and seemingly, Europe hasn't yet totally rid itself of the nationalism bug. So it really goes without saying that this is a huge factor when it comes ot the integration of Muslims as well as other immigrants in European societies.

Ofcourse, I don't agree with all the crap he says about Europeans being the most ruthless, and it's quite ludicrous to bring the Crusade which happened in the 11th century as some kind of evidence. The problem back then was religious fanatacism, now it's about nationalism/racism.

See the problem I have is you guys are skirting around the real issue. Look back at the original post. It's clearly talking about muslims. And you guys are talking about a general, very general word: immigrants.

Let's establish one fact. It is hard for immigrants anywhere. We know that.

But why is this article talking about muslims and Europe. Why is it a bigger problem for muslims to integrate into Europe?

So my conclusion is that it can be only one of two things:

1. Muslims especially have a harder time than anyone else integrating into Europe possibly because of their religion or political ideologies.

or

2. Other non-muslim immigrants have it as hard if not harder than muslims but it's just not talked about.

Which is it?

Apoleb
Nov 28th, 2006, 12:51 AM
So my conclusion is that it can be only one of two things:

1. Muslims especially have a harder time than anyone else integrating into Europe possibly because of their religion or political ideologies.

or

2. Other non-muslim immigrants have it as hard if not harder than muslims but it's just not talked about.

Which is it?


I'm not sure why are you trying to twist it this way. Muslim's background culture is probably a factor, but I was talking about also another very important factor, and nowhere did I say that this was the only reason why Muslims can't integrate; but it's a very important thing to consider nonetheless. It doesn't have to be all black and white. The two factors interact, and like the article mentions, a lot of bigots will find the actions of radical Muslims as excuses. And we do know that Black people in France have it as hard as North Africans anyway, and it's no less talked about.

Diam's
Nov 28th, 2006, 01:41 AM
The article is clearly exagerating stuff, but nonetheless, it raises an important point: the conditions of Muslims in the US is far better than what it is in Europe, which is kind of ironic.

Those European countries aren't considered to be "nations of immigrants" (unlike the US) so IMO the opposite would be ironic. And then you also have to take into their socio-economic backgrounds in their countries of origin.

Renaissance
Nov 28th, 2006, 10:02 AM
Well compared to Muslims, The Hindus and Portuguese integrate better in general. But yeah that is not always the case. In Fiji, there is tension between Fiji people and Indians.
You say that Portuguese community don't blend better than North Africans? Hey man I go regularly to France and I can say that this is not so. North Africans don't blend well. I hate to say this but this is what I see. I can tell that you are a Muslim, perhaps even a Frenchman of Arab origin. But I said in general. A lot of Arabs such as yourself integrate well.


For me integration is not "communautarism",when you integrate into a group your exchanges with it are strong and you agree to blend with it (weddings).

Hindus and portuguese communities are for sure quieter than north africans but can we speak about integration?For me it's a peacefull cohabitation.

I know well portuguese community,they are appreciated for their discretion but i can make this statement all my portuguese friends ( 2nd generation) are married with members of their community apart from one ( her parents didn't give their consent to her marriage).

My father is more political inclined than religious and my mother is a muslim who was raised in a catholic institute.
So it's difficult for me to consider myself as muslim because in my home I had a lot of influences ,I have sympathy for all the religions and I take the best from them.
It's not religions which separate people but people themselves.

Integration in France is not a problem of religion ,I think it's a political issue,relationship between France and its old colonies (particularly Algeria) are violent and painful.Today we gather the consequences.If you want to go to the front I think it's important for a country like France to look at its past like Germany did.:)

azdaja
Nov 28th, 2006, 11:40 AM
See the problem I have is you guys are skirting around the real issue. Look back at the original post. It's clearly talking about muslims. And you guys are talking about a general, very general word: immigrants.

Let's establish one fact. It is hard for immigrants anywhere. We know that.

But why is this article talking about muslims and Europe. Why is it a bigger problem for muslims to integrate into Europe?

So my conclusion is that it can be only one of two things:

1. Muslims especially have a harder time than anyone else integrating into Europe possibly because of their religion or political ideologies.

or

2. Other non-muslim immigrants have it as hard if not harder than muslims but it's just not talked about.

Which is it?
you are just talking about the cultural background of immigrants and ignoring the culture of the host country. in some countries people are more hostile to certain groups and more friendly to others. this often has historical reasons and has nothing to do with the present.

the way europeans see themselves is actually a relic of the past, from the time of romantic nationalism. that nationalism has led to a lot of violence already and is a major obstacle for the integration of immigrants and in my opinion this article is right to point that out.

it is quite a huge cultural shock for europeans that they are now actually all nations of immigrants, but this is a fact now. a lot of people still refuse to accept it, though.