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Sam L
Nov 19th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Britain faces a sustained threat from extremist Islamic groups recruiting in British universities, the Government warned today.


Releasing new guidance designed to root out suspected terror cells, Bill Rammell, the higher education minister, said there was evidence that undergraduates were being "groomed" by groups infiltrating campuses disguised as ordinary students.

The document, released to all universities today, warns lecturers to be vigilant of students suspected of circulating extremist literature and extremist speakers visiting campuses.


It outlines a series of "scenarios" based on real events reported by university and college staff to illustrate the kind of threat being posed.
This includes a teacher who found pamphlets with titles such as "Who is a legitimate target?" and "From Jihad to a new world order" and a tutor who had been approached by students concerned about a speaker delivering a talk entitled "Terrorist or freedom fighter?".


It also describes how librarians have reported spotting students looking at computer images of men "dressed in military and civilian clothing holding guns" and concerns over extreme views being aired by members of Islamic societies.


Mr Rammell said: "This guidance provides a recognition - that I believe must be faced squarely - that violent extremism in the name of Islam is a real, credible and sustained threat to the UK, and that there is evidence of serious, but not widespread, Islamic extremist activity in higher education institutions."


He denied that it amounted to an attempt to target the Muslim community, but said that universities had to take "their responsibilities for the safety of their staff and students very seriously".


The guidance says that universities must set up partnerships with police to report suspicious behaviour. They also have a duty to promote integration between faith groups and societies, publicise support groups, vet external speakers and create plans to deal with emergencies, for example, when a student is arrested under terrorism legislation.


The British Muslim Forum, an umbrella group affiliated to almost 300 mosques, welcomed the guidance and said that the "radicalism of Muslim youths" on campuses needed to be tackled.


A spokesman said: "We would, however, strongly urge the Government to consider issuing similar guidance on tackling anti-Muslim extremism of the far right, as this would reinforce the Government's resolve to tackle all forms of extremism."


Universities UK also praised the guidance but said warnings should be "focussed on all kinds of extremism, not just on extremism in the name of Islam".


Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/17/uterror117.xml

Thoughts? This is the kind of thing I'm most concerned about. It appears that they are trying to recruit extremists in western countries. We can see evidence of this here on this board.

Diam's
Nov 19th, 2006, 01:34 PM
We can see evidence of this here on this board.

:haha:

Kart
Nov 19th, 2006, 03:09 PM
We can see evidence of this here on this board.

Absolutely. There is plenty of anti-islamic sentiment vented on this board much like we're seeing in the media in the UK at present.

It's no surprise that extremist groups are seeking vulnerable disillusioned islamic youths that feel unwelcome here.

This is old news though, I would say I'm surprised it's only making its way into the newspaper today but then again it is the Daily Telegraph :tape:.

No doubt the Daily Mail will feature it for months to come :rolleyes:.

Renaissance
Nov 19th, 2006, 03:12 PM
:lol: Sam L ...Does your opinions (propaganda?) make you a Mossad agent?
I joke... but your relentlessness against islam is surprising....maybe you are?

controlfreak
Nov 19th, 2006, 04:14 PM
Sam is just worried that the recruitment drive will have ended by the time his plane arrives in London. :devil:

wta_zuperfann
Nov 19th, 2006, 05:27 PM
The Hillel Foundation is all over USA college campuses and some of its people use this as a means of expousing hatred for Muslims. While the vast majority of the Jewish collegiate students serve the public honorably and Hillel serves their needs and enhance the academic experience, unfortunately it is clouded by the actions of a few haters.

The time has come to end the evil actions of all haters, not just a select few.

Sam L
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Sam is just worried that the recruitment drive will have ended by the time his plane arrives in London. :devil:
:haha:

Kunal
Nov 20th, 2006, 01:37 PM
so it begs the question.....who is setting an agenda here

Lord Nelson
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:13 PM
The Hillel Foundation is all over USA college campuses and some of its people use this as a means of expousing hatred for Muslims. While the vast majority of the Jewish collegiate students serve the public honorably and Hillel serves their needs and enhance the academic experience, unfortunately it is clouded by the actions of a few haters.

The time has come to end the evil actions of all haters, not just a select few.

Hmmm, I am beginning to like this hillel foundation. I will learn more about it. :yeah:
If wtazuperfann says it is extremist then it is probably moderate.

fifiricci
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:34 PM
Absolutely. There is plenty of anti-islamic sentiment vented on this board much like we're seeing in the media in the UK at present.

It's no surprise that extremist groups are seeking vulnerable disillusioned islamic youths that feel unwelcome here.

This is old news though, I would say I'm surprised it's only making its way into the newspaper today but then again it is the Daily Telegraph :tape:.

No doubt the Daily Mail will feature it for months to come :rolleyes:.

:worship:

Parsley
Nov 20th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Absolutely. There is plenty of anti-islamic sentiment vented on this board much like we're seeing in the media in the UK at present.

It's no surprise that extremist groups are seeking vulnerable disillusioned islamic youths that feel unwelcome here.

This is old news though, I would say I'm surprised it's only making its way into the newspaper today but then again it is the Daily Telegraph :tape:.

No doubt the Daily Mail will feature it for months to come :rolleyes:.

Will I be banned if I use the word "idiot" for Sam L?

*abby*
Nov 20th, 2006, 03:58 PM
im from bradford and some muslim students there got arrested and taken to scotland yard for having links with extremist groups and for plotting to commit a terrorist act.
its scary knowing people like that who are willing to take peoples lives for no reason are living right on your doorstep!

Parsley
Nov 20th, 2006, 04:05 PM
I can sense the same type of atmosphere in the air as in Arthur Miller's The Crucible.

Wannabeknowitall
Nov 20th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Are these the same universities that don't mind credit card companies to come into the grounds to put their students in debt in the name of commercialism?

Kart
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Will I be banned if I use the word "idiot" for Sam L?

Why do you ask ?

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 20th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Why do you ask ?

you mean you saying everyone should call him one :lol:
its not too hard to think about.

wta_zuperfann
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:17 PM
If wtazuperfann says it is extremist then it is probably moderate


:haha:


Lordy needs to take a second look at my post. Hillel for the most part is a good organization. It's certain types who use its facilities to promote a less than positive agenda.

Well, at least he'll learn something...

Selah
Nov 20th, 2006, 09:34 PM
I would like to put on a burqua, strap on some dynamite, and find out who SamL is. :o

*JR*
Nov 20th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Absolutely. There is plenty of anti-islamic sentiment vented on this board much like we're seeing in the media in the UK at present.

It's no surprise that extremist groups are seeking vulnerable disillusioned islamic youths that feel unwelcome here.

This is old news though, I would say I'm surprised it's only making its way into the newspaper today but then again it is the Daily Telegraph :tape:.

No doubt the Daily Mail will feature it for months to come :rolleyes:.

Anti-Islamic, or anti-Islamist? There's a very big difference.

Fingon
Nov 21st, 2006, 01:38 AM
Are these the same universities that don't mind credit card companies to come into the grounds to put their students in debt in the name of commercialism?

yeah, but the only fuck themselves doing that, they are not killing anyone are they? (except their credit rating).

fufuqifuqishahah
Nov 21st, 2006, 01:41 AM
i think we should all do a serious conversion to islam for a month. just to get a feel.

Fingon
Nov 21st, 2006, 01:49 AM
Absolutely. There is plenty of anti-islamic sentiment vented on this board much like we're seeing in the media in the UK at present.


that's only natural, there is also a lot of pro-islamic sentiment so it balances it out.

It's no surprise that extremist groups are seeking vulnerable disillusioned islamic youths that feel unwelcome here.


well, two divergent comments on that.

1) I would tend to agree if it wasn't because those islamic youths blew up subway trains and a bus in London, attempted to do it again and then plotted to blow up airliners. It really makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them. Are you telling me if someone is marginalized that gives them the right to terrorize and kill innocent people? in the same country the gave them assylum/immigrant status?

2) On the other hand, there is some true on that. I read an article that analyzed why home grown muslim terrorists are only present in Europe and not in the US, strange because the US is supposed to be their most hated enemy, the authors attributed that, among other things to a better assimilation of muslim populations in the US or Canada than in Europe.

I don't know if it's true, but when I decided to emmigrate to Canada, one of the factors to choose it was that I was told that immigrants integrate better in North America than in Europe, as I said, I haven't lived in Europe so I don't know how true that is but certainly, I have not faced any kind of discrimination or integration problems here (except for the fact that I hate baseball and american football).

This is old news though, I would say I'm surprised it's only making its way into the newspaper today but then again it is the Daily Telegraph :tape:.

No doubt the Daily Mail will feature it for months to come :rolleyes:.

well it maybe that they are starting to realize the danger?

Kart
Nov 21st, 2006, 06:39 PM
Anti-Islamic, or anti-Islamist? There's a very big difference.

Explain please and don't make me regret asking :armed:.

samsung101
Nov 21st, 2006, 06:50 PM
There are no extremist Muslims.
Only misundertsood Muslims.
They are peaceful.
They love everyone and everything.
Infidels are their pals.


OK, so they like to slice off the heads
of infidels, and gouge out their eyes,
but, hey, no one is perfect.

Only right wingers from the USA who
believe in God are extremists.

Didn't they get the memo?

Tony Blair, he's such a right wing fanatic.


Actually, there are plenty of Muslims nuts here in the USA.
That Adam Ghadan guy, he's from Orange County. A goat
farmer turned Osama Bin Laden 2nd in command type...doesn't
say much for Osama does it.

Perhaps, in the USA Muslims have a lot more political and economic
and educational clout, and a means to express their views better.

Perhaps, that crazy Bush homeland security policy has actually worked
pretty well after all, no attacks in 5 years, and several plots broken up.

griffin
Nov 21st, 2006, 06:56 PM
1) I would tend to agree if it wasn't because those islamic youths blew up subway trains and a bus in London, attempted to do it again and then plotted to blow up airliners. It really makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them. Are you telling me if someone is marginalized that gives them the right to terrorize and kill innocent people? in the same country the gave them assylum/immigrant status?

Since when is pointing out that people who feel disillusioned and/or marginalized are often targeted by extremists or other trouble-makers, or saying it's not surprising that this happens, the same as justifying it?

Kart
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:09 PM
that's only natural, there is also a lot of pro-islamic sentiment so it balances it out.


Really ? I've always thought that muslims are underrepresented on this board - although it's just an impression :shrug:.


well, two divergent comments on that.

1) I would tend to agree if it wasn't because those islamic youths blew up subway trains and a bus in London, attempted to do it again and then plotted to blow up airliners. It really makes it hard for me to feel sorry for them. Are you telling me if someone is marginalized that gives them the right to terrorize and kill innocent people? in the same country the gave them assylum/immigrant status?


I never implied any of those things Fingon. I know I don't need to remind you that those actions you're mentioned reflect the plans of an extremist minority.


2) On the other hand, there is some true on that. I read an article that analyzed why home grown muslim terrorists are only present in Europe and not in the US, strange because the US is supposed to be their most hated enemy, the authors attributed that, among other things to a better assimilation of muslim populations in the US or Canada than in Europe.

I don't know if it's true, but when I decided to emmigrate to Canada, one of the factors to choose it was that I was told that immigrants integrate better in North America than in Europe, as I said, I haven't lived in Europe so I don't know how true that is but certainly, I have not faced any kind of discrimination or integration problems here (except for the fact that I hate baseball and american football).


There is probably some truth to that article.

There is IMHO though a difference between integration and assimilation.

I lived in Canada for a very short time so can't really comment but I doubt they've no home grown terrorists at all.

The UK is pretty open minded about allowing immigrants to live their own lives and maintain their customs within reason.

You could argue that gives extremism an opportunity to secretly thrive and I wouldn't disagree but the fact remains that most immigrants live happily in this society feeling welcomed as they're treated with respect and dignity without any extremist views at all.


well it maybe that they are starting to realize the danger?

If this were an isolated article I'd agree.

However it is not - there's a new negative story about Islam in the papers every week here.

That at the same time that far right nationalists are being found not guilty of promoting racial hatred in court.

This is the kind of material that those extremists capitalise on. Which leads to more people taking up their extreme views and more initiative for peaceful immigrants to feel threatened and be more susceptible to thinking they have to fight for themselves.

*JR*
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:22 PM
Explain please and don't make me regret asking :armed:.
OK. :shrug:

Islamic = practices Islam as one's religion (or @ least identifies one's religion as such).

Islamist = subscribes to a political agenda which cites Islam (fairly or not) as its rationale. May or may not advocate or condone violence against those of other faiths, those who've left the religion, or even another Islamic sect (as in Sunni vs. Shia). Generally (if not @ least condoning violence) identified with asserting discrimination, as with the French head scarf ban in schools, etc.

Kart
Nov 21st, 2006, 07:28 PM
OK. :shrug:

Islamic = practices Islam as one's religion (or @ least identifies one's religion as such).

Islamist = subscribes to a political agenda which cites Islam (fairly or not) as its rationale. May or may not advocate or condone violence against those of other faiths, those who've left the religion, or even another Islamic sect (as in Sunni vs. Shia). Generally (if not @ least condoning violence) identified with asserting discrimination, as with the French head scarf ban in schools, etc.

Thank you. You used a few too many @s for my liking but I'll let you off :p.

I understand the difference but in practical terms the way the media put it I wonder of those reading note the distinction clearly.

Fingon
Nov 21st, 2006, 08:58 PM
I never implied any of those things Fingon. I know I don't need to remind you that those actions you're mentioned reflect the plans of an extremist minority.


yes and no, ok, I'll try to explain.

Yes, it's indeed a minority, however, put yourself on the shoes of the police and security agencies, it doesn't really matter whether it's a minority or not, it's not about statistics, it's about the danger they represent and minority or not they threaten they lives of thousands or innocent people, under those circumstances, being fair is not a top priority, it happens that minority or not, the huge majority of those who are perpetrating such acts are indeed muslims, so your risk group is clearly identified. In other words, you have a much higher chance of finding a terrorist among muslims that among not muslims, when the threat is so high, offending someone's sensibility takes a back seat.

Second, I mentioned it before. When one muslim leader in Britain was asked to help, he came up with the idea of allowing sharia law, the media focused on that, I focused on something much more relevant, he said "help us and we will help you".

That phrase symbolizes the problem "us" "you", they dont' consider themselves part of the countries they have moved in, and don't tell me is the word of just one leader because that's the way they see themselves, most of them, even non-terrorists feel more loyalty to religious scholars in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than to their new country, and that's the root of the problem.


There is probably some truth to that article.

There is IMHO though a difference between integration and assimilation.

I lived in Canada for a very short time so can't really comment but I doubt they've no home grown terrorists at all.


I don't know if at all, but homegrown terrorists are a lost less common in North America than in Europe, and I am not talking just about muslim terrorists, but way back to the 70s and 80s when nearly every european country has its own home based terrorist group, that didn't happen in North America.

The UK is pretty open minded about allowing immigrants to live their own lives and maintain their customs within reason.


Which is great, unfortunately, thanks to the actions of a minority, that view is likely to radically change, and that's one of the thing the muslim community doesn't seem to get, if they don't stop it from within, it will be stopped from outside.

You could argue that gives extremism an opportunity to secretly thrive and I wouldn't disagree but the fact remains that most immigrants live happily in this society feeling welcomed as they're treated with respect and dignity without any extremist views at all.

most, unfortunately, when someone is willing to blow himself up and kill thousands, most is not quite enough.


If this were an isolated article I'd agree.

However it is not - there's a new negative story about Islam in the papers every week here.


well, after 3 terrorist attacks/plots in less than a year I would tend to understand that.

That at the same time that far right nationalists are being found not guilty of promoting racial hatred in court.


that happens all the time, and that's one of the dangers, the more people are scared of terrorists, the more they will turn to the right and anti-immigration policies.

As I said, if the muslim community doesn't realize soon it's not "us" and "they", it's just "us", then they will be "they" they will be out of the equation.

This is the kind of material that those extremists capitalise on. Which leads to more people taking up their extreme views and more initiative for peaceful immigrants to feel threatened and be more susceptible to thinking they have to fight for themselves.

sorry, I don't buy that, it's like when they say "don't do this or we will blow something up", they are doing it already, first priority is to stop that.

Kart
Nov 21st, 2006, 10:02 PM
I knew I should have kept my reply short Fingon I just knew you were going to give me loads to read :lol:.

yes and no, ok, I'll try to explain.

Yes, it's indeed a minority, however, put yourself on the shoes of the police and security agencies, it doesn't really matter whether it's a minority or not, it's not about statistics, it's about the danger they represent and minority or not they threaten they lives of thousands or innocent people, under those circumstances, being fair is not a top priority, it happens that minority or not, the huge majority of those who are perpetrating such acts are indeed muslims, so your risk group is clearly identified. In other words, you have a much higher chance of finding a terrorist among muslims that among not muslims, when the threat is so high, offending someone's sensibility takes a back seat.

Second, I mentioned it before. When one muslim leader in Britain was asked to help, he came up with the idea of allowing sharia law, the media focused on that, I focused on something much more relevant, he said "help us and we will help you".

That phrase symbolizes the problem "us" "you", they dont' consider themselves part of the countries they have moved in, and don't tell me is the word of just one leader because that's the way they see themselves, most of them, even non-terrorists feel more loyalty to religious scholars in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan than to their new country, and that's the root of the problem.

I've no real opinion on the above but it makes interesting reading so thank you. My 'minority' comment was just a throw away comment and has kind of taken us off topic from my original post - which was that impressionable islamic young men that feel rejected by the country they live in are a an easy target for the seductive charms of extremists. I saw it happen to people I knew at university when I was there - not become terrorists but definitely change their attitudes on the way they lived their lives.



I don't know if at all, but homegrown terrorists are a lost less common in North America than in Europe, and I am not talking just about muslim terrorists, but way back to the 70s and 80s when nearly every european country has its own home based terrorist group, that didn't happen in North America.

Ok. I didn't know that.


well, after 3 terrorist attacks/plots in less than a year I would tend to understand that.

I understand it too but I don't support with it.



that happens all the time, and that's one of the dangers, the more people are scared of terrorists, the more they will turn to the right and anti-immigration policies.

As I said, if the muslim community doesn't realize soon it's not "us" and "they", it's just "us", then they will be "they" they will be out of the equation.


The thing is though that this 'us and them' mentality cuts both ways. The media are guilty of it as well - it has to be dropped by everyone for it to work. You won't get any argument from me that the muslim community has work on its attitudes to do but so do we all.



sorry, I don't buy that, it's like when they say "don't do this or we will blow something up", they are doing it already, first priority is to stop that.

Which part don't you buy ? As a second generation immigrant, I sometimes feel threatened by the far right. I can almost understand people wanting to fight back against people like that.

Fingon
Nov 22nd, 2006, 12:54 AM
I knew I should have kept my reply short Fingon I just knew you were going to give me loads to read :lol:.

it's more difficult to refute me if there is a lot there :)


I've no real opinion on the above but it makes interesting reading so thank you. My 'minority' comment was just a throw away comment and has kind of taken us off topic from my original post - which was that impressionable islamic young men that feel rejected by the country they live in are a an easy target for the seductive charms of extremists. I saw it happen to people I knew at university when I was there - not become terrorists but definitely change their attitudes on the way they lived their lives.

yes, and that's natural with young people. It's not by chance that people are more idealists when they are young and become more pragmatic when they are old, they think they can change the world.

And that's a point, we need to protect our youths, muslim or not from those bad influences, we must act on them, I am not propossing cracking down on the youths but the extremists that take advantage of them.

The thing is though that this 'us and them' mentality cuts both ways. The media are guilty of it as well - it has to be dropped by everyone for it to work. You won't get any argument from me that the muslim community has work on its attitudes to do but so do we all.

it does, the difference is, western countries are allowing them to live in their territory, they are the ones that need to adapt, they have chosen to move, they can't expect the countries that are receiving them to accommodate to their likings, same way I wouldn't expect an arab country to change to my liking if I decided to emmigrate there.



Which part don't you buy ? As a second generation immigrant, I sometimes feel threatened by the far right. I can almost understand people wanting to fight back against people like that.

I'll give you an example. Hamas was sending scores of suicide bombers to Israel, then Israel started the targetted killing of Hamas leaders, and Hamas said they would seek revenge, I was like, what? you are doing that already, what has changed?

I am not in favour of the far right, what I say is that it's rise is a reaction to the terrorists actions, they started with 9/11 and many other acts after that, without 9/11 there wouldn't have been an invasion to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Veritas
Nov 22nd, 2006, 02:45 AM
I'll give you an example. Hamas was sending scores of suicide bombers to Israel, then Israel started the targetted killing of Hamas leaders, and Hamas said they would seek revenge, I was like, what? you are doing that already, what has changed?

I am not in favour of the far right, what I say is that it's rise is a reaction to the terrorists actions, they started with 9/11 and many other acts after that, without 9/11 there wouldn't have been an invasion to Afghanistan or Iraq.

I think it's more that the terrorist activities are a response to the long history of U.S. and Western intervention in Middle Eastern affairs :shrug:

The problem with this response is that it's a wrong one. If a country like Japan can rebuild itself from scratch after WWII, then I don't see why Middle Eastern countries can't do the same.

meyerpl
Nov 22nd, 2006, 04:28 AM
I'd really need to be bombing-out in college to be tempted to get involved in a deal like that.

Apoleb
Nov 22nd, 2006, 05:17 AM
I think it's more that the terrorist activities are a response to the long history of U.S. and Western intervention in Middle Eastern affairs :shrug:

The problem with this response is that it's a wrong one. If a country like Japan can rebuild itself from scratch after WWII, then I don't see why Middle Eastern countries can't do the same.

I think it's more complicated than that. Radical Islam is not a reactionary movement by any means. OBL did not start Al Qaeda simply because he was upset with the US or the USSR. There are definite rooted ideological principles behind radical Islam. The support and sympathy Islamic radicals do get in the Muslim world however is definitely very related to the perception of the US.

Too many people in the West look at this issue as black or white. Either the US and the West is fully responsible for what's happening in the world now, or Muslims are just fanatical retarded idiots (and many times the arguments goes on a racial level). (I'm not talking about you btw).

Veritas
Nov 23rd, 2006, 05:43 AM
I think it's more complicated than that. Radical Islam is not a reactionary movement by any means. OBL did not start Al Qaeda simply because he was upset with the US or the USSR. There are definite rooted ideological principles behind radical Islam. The support and sympathy Islamic radicals do get in the Muslim world however is definitely very related to the perception of the US.

Too many people in the West look at this issue as black or white. Either the US and the West is fully responsible for what's happening in the world now, or Muslims are just fanatical retarded idiots (and many times the arguments goes on a racial level). (I'm not talking about you btw).

I understand, but I also think Western intervention has plenty to do with the problems today. Sure the Middle East has had problems with corrupt officials who drag their country into debt, but a lot of it does tie back to the West. I agree with people like Samuel Huntington who say that the best way for the Middle East to modernise is to not barge into their affairs because a lot of their problems can only be resolved amongst themselves.

When the West force their own methods, they're not taking into account that Islam is a different culture and therefore needs some non-Western approaches to sort their issues. Religion is an important part of Islamic life and when the West tries to impose parliamentary democracy, they're telling Muslims that they must have a secular government which is a big no-no. Sorting out extremism is a delicate problem and when the West presses Islamic countries, they're giving extremists an excuse to shift the blame elsewhere.

Of course, I'm not excusing the extremists because when I used the example of Japan, I'm showing that there are better ways than violence to pull a country out of financial problems. But in the end, the West is going about the business in a way that's more detrimental than not. It's a shame that the everyday Muslim's getting short-changed. The world hates them and their own government basically isn't competent enough to turn their country around for the better. IMO, they're the real victims in this struggle.