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View Full Version : Monica Seles just before she got stabbed was in the same situation as...


Sam L
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:44 AM
... Roger Federer right now.

But with one less grand slam title. But Monica at that time was 19 and Roger is 24(?).

So anyway,

At that time Monica had the last 3 consecutive Australian Opens and French Opens.

Roger now has the last 4 consecutive Wimbledons and 3 consecutive US Opens.

Monica had also won 2 other US Opens.

Roger has won 2 other Australian Opens.

Monica hadn't won Wimbledon but she was a finalist the last time.

Roger hasn't won French Open but he is a reigning finalist.

Monica had won 8 out of the last 12 grand slams at that point. (66%)

Roger has won 9 out of the last 14 grand slams right now. (62%)

Monica's only rival during that time was Graf who won 2 Wimbledons but was 4 years older than her.

Roger's only rival right now is Nadal who won 2 French Opens and is 5 years younger than him.

------

If Roger becomes the greatest player ever surpassing Sampras, who's to say that Monica who had dominated just like him would not have? Monica was in a better position than Roger right now because her chief rival was older and Monica was only a teenager. Whereas, there's a possibility that Nadal could improve overtake Roger.

I think this is proof that Monica was the greatest player ever at that point in women's tennis.

égalité
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:47 AM
I agree completely, and there's no doubt she would've won more slams than Steffi.

Sam L
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:49 AM
I agree completely, and there's no doubt she would've won more slams than Steffi.

We're not talking about Steffi. This isn't Steffi vs. Monica. I'm making a pure statistical comparison between what was and what's happening right now.

Barring injury or stabbings, nothing would've stopped her.

She and Roger are the two greatest players ever.

Brett.
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:49 AM
Why did this man stabbed Monica in the back in germany (?) during a tournament?

égalité
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:51 AM
Why did this man stabbed Monica in the back in germany (?) during a tournament?


He was a crazy Steffi Graf fan who wanted her to get back to #1, and, well...

~Eclipsed~
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:52 AM
Why did this man stabbed Monica in the back in germany (?) during a tournament?

because he was a crazy, hardcore Graf fan. I think he should have gotten harsher punishment for what he did.

PatrickRyan
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:55 AM
here's monica talking about the insident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgZhUjASt-I

Wayn77
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:58 AM
It seems like a long time ago, I am trying to remember!

Roger is just soo much better than the others, he is on a different planet to the likes of Roddick, Hewitt. Fair play to Nadal in working hard on his game away from clay and staying with him. Was Monica that much better than all of the others back then?

Alley
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:59 AM
You Seles fanatics need to MOVE ON. IT'S BEEN 13 FREAKING YEARS!

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:02 AM
You Seles fanatics need to MOVE ON. IT'S BEEN 13 FREAKING YEARS!

Shhhhhhhh...let them blow......its been a while and they need to get it out of their system.

Sam L
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:04 AM
It seems like a long time ago, I am trying to remember!

Roger is just soo much better than the others, he is on a different planet to the likes of Roddick, Hewitt. Fair play to Nadal in working hard on his game away from clay and staying with him. Was Monica that much better than all of the others back then?

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.

I've given you the stats, the comparison, now you think for yourselves.

Everyone acts like Roger is the second coming of Christ. Well Monica did the same things just before she got stabbed.

RJWCapriati
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:12 AM
You're right - Its terrible that had to happen - he certainly changed the course of history - Monica would at least have 18 singles grand slams if that wouldn't have happened in my opinion.

Wayn77
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:12 AM
THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.

I've given you the stats, the comparison, now you think for yourselves.

Everyone acts like Roger is the second coming of Christ. Well Monica did the same things just before she got stabbed.

Not saying Roger is the holy one at all, put the stats to one side for a moment and observe. I have never seen anyone so superior in every deparment to his contemporaries as Roger is at the moment. I think that has a lot to do with his image problem in the states, they just don't see the guy having to scratch, fight and occasionally get down and get dirty to win title after title, he is just too damn good. Was it the same for Monica?

crazyroberto6767
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:17 AM
Let the past be. Monica doesn't dwell on it, so I don't see why some of her fans have to.

Sam L
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:20 AM
Not saying Roger is the holy one at all, put the stats to one side for a moment and observe. I have never seen anyone so superior in every deparment to his contemporaries as Roger is at the moment. I think that has a lot to do with his image problem in the states, they just don't see the guy having to scratch, fight and occasionally get down and get dirty to win title after title, he is just too damn good. Was it the same for Monica?

YES!!

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:27 AM
here we go again right on track to season ending this will be all thats talked about

Hardiansf
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:28 AM
Monica... a LEGEND

WhatTheDeuce
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:36 AM
Not that I condone bringing up the topic all the time (at least Calimero is banned) but I completely agree.

Monica is the greatest ever, always, in my mind. That will never change.

_Cell-chuk
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:38 AM
Not that I condone bringing up the topic all the time (at least Calimero is banned) but I completely agree.

Monica is the greatest ever, always, in my mind. That will never change.

OMG, when was he banned?

faboozadoo15
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:25 AM
what glorious careers these two players have had! i'm just so glad i'll get to see roger complete his career as it's meant to be. there are so many things about monica's career that sadden me (although it could never compare to all the joy i've gotten from watching her rip the ball over the years). monica and roger are my two favorite players, and i've never thought of comparing their careers in this way.

we'll never know what would have happened had monica not been stabbed. but in my heart i know monica seles is the single greatest female to ever play the sport of tennis, and that's good enough for me.

i mean, what if hingis had been stabbed before the french open in 1998? or if serena had been stabbed after wimbledon 2003? we'd all think they'd have gone on to win for years.

wimbly
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:25 AM
Seles may be considered as one of the greats, but to compare her to Federer who is arguably the greatest player ever played is just crazy.... get real!!!

faboozadoo15
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:29 AM
Seles may be considered as one of the greats, but to compare her to Federer who is arguably the greatest player ever played is just crazy.... get real!!!
why is this such a ridiculous assertion? seles was winning left and right when she was years younger that roger is now. their records are extremely comparable at this point.

many thought seles was quickly going to become the greatest of all time. she totally snatched everything from graf.

FaileBashere
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:56 AM
I'm not dissing Seles because I believe she was a great tennis player.

But IMO, and again, IN MY OPINION, she would have brought more to this argument had she not succumbed to the trauma of the stabbing. What is a great champion anyway? One who persists against all odds. Sure, it was a scary time for her. And she was never the same. No one blames her. She was very unfortunate. But in spite of all that, had she been the same, then maybe that would've made all the difference. :tape:

vutt
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:57 AM
Seles may be considered as one of the greats, but to compare her to Federer who is arguably the greatest player ever played is just crazy.... get real!!!

Indeed! :worship:

Lunaris
Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:28 AM
Well, these comments are only speculations, what she could have been or not. Nothing more people, you should stop dreaming and wake up to the reality. The best of all times is probably Navratilova, even if I can't stand her. Regardless this discussion is pointless. :wavey:

Stingray
Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:51 AM
I agree completely, and there's no doubt she would've won more slams than Steffi.

You can't say that cos it didn't happen. You can't make a prediction based on a presumption. Yes it is likely that Monica would have won more slams, but its impossible to say how many or when.

tennisvideos
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:27 AM
This is such a tricky one for me. Monica is up there as one of my favourite players ever and she seemed destined to become one of the all time greats until that despicable horror. In my mind, she is one of the all time greats. But the fact that she came back and played for several years and never reached the same heights has (understandably) tarnished her standing in many people's minds.

I would never suggest she is the greatest ever, esp as she didn't completely dominate any year eg. a Grand Slam. But at the same time, prior to the stabbing, one would have to admit that her record was as good as any player since Maureen Connolly. :sad: :worship:

As for people still bringing it up still after all these years, I say let them. It's something that can affect people deeply. I am still coming to terms with the fact that our wonderful sprinter Raelene Boyle never won an Olympic Gold medal due to the East German drug regime during the 70s. And that was over 30 years ago! :lol:

!<blocparty>!
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:33 AM
Very interesting stats... it's weird how similar their stats match up with regards to rivals etc. But obviously the slams are different.

Monica. :sad:

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:46 AM
THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.

I've given you the stats, the comparison, now you think for yourselves.

Everyone acts like Roger is the second coming of Christ. Well Monica did the same things just before she got stabbed.
as tennis players go...there's no comparison between Roger and Monica. Roger's in a different league talent wise.

FaileBashere
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:50 AM
As for people still bringing it up still after all these years, I say let them. It's something that can affect people deeply.


Understandable sentiment. And I respect that. It's really something that isn't meant to be forgotten. No one can really say what could've happened if that incident didn't happen. It's all a matter of speculation now.

Philbo
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:56 AM
Ive been saying the same thing for years. Its well known that Im a Navratilova fan, but Monica was well and truley on her way to being the greatest female player of all time.

IM surprised no Steffi fan has come in with the head to head stat between Monica and Steffi and posted 'monica never dominated Steffi, check out the head to head'.

Its like Nadal losing in the earlier rounds, never getting to the final to face Federer, only to turn around and use the failure to make the final as proof that Fed didnt dominate Nadal.

Monica never dominated Steffi because Steffi was losing before she could face Monica. Cant fault Monica for that. Monica dominated the GAME of tennis for about 2.5 years til it was stolen away from her and Graf just had to show up to collect the slams...

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:00 PM
Ive been saying the same thing for years. Its well known that Im a Navratilova fan, but Monica was well and truley on her way to being the greatest female player of all time.

IM surprised no Steffi fan has come in with the head to head stat between Monica and Steffi and posted 'monica never dominated Steffi, check out the head to head'.

Its like Nadal losing in the earlier rounds, never getting to the final to face Federer, only to turn around and use the failure to make the final as proof that Fed didnt dominate Nadal.

Monica never dominated Steffi because Steffi was losing before she could face Monica. Cant fault Monica for that. Monica dominated the GAME of tennis for about 2.5 years til it was stolen away from her and Graf just had to show up to collect the slams...

thats a tad harsh on the other players who were around then...many very talented

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:26 PM
thats a tad harsh on the other players who were around then...many very talented

The other players were:

A retiring Martina Navratilova.
A burnt-out Gabriela Sabatini who's free-fall was beginning.
Jennifer Capriati was busy shoplifting and smoking pot.

That left Sanchez-Vicario, who wouldn't reach another GS final till RG 1994 and was only just starting to come into her own, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Conchita Martinez as the primary contenders. :tape: :help:

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:27 PM
I'm not dissing Seles because I believe she was a great tennis player.

But IMO, and again, IN MY OPINION, she would have brought more to this argument had she not succumbed to the trauma of the stabbing. What is a great champion anyway? One who persists against all odds. Sure, it was a scary time for her. And she was never the same. No one blames her. She was very unfortunate. But in spite of all that, had she been the same, then maybe that would've made all the difference. :tape:

The fact that she was able to set foot on a tennis court again and play with her back to the crowds, indicates more strength to me than any tennis match, Monica ever won.

Ghis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:36 PM
The fact that she was able to set foot on a tennis court again and play with her back to the crowds, indicates more strength to me than any tennis match, Monica ever won.
I absolutely agree. That Monica ultimately managed to overcome her fears and show up on a court again is an incredible proof of courage and mental strength. More respect to her :worship:

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:37 PM
The other players were:

A retiring Martina Navratilova.
A burnt-out Gabriela Sabatini who's free-fall was beginning.
Jennifer Capriati was busy shoplifting and smoking pot.

That left Sanchez-Vicario, who wouldn't reach another GS final till RG 1994 and was only just starting to come into her own, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Conchita Martinez as the primary contenders. :tape: :help:

i liked all those players..i thought they were good...anyway...hold on..arent they the same players Monica was defeating on her way to winning slams?

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:47 PM
The fact that she was able to set foot on a tennis court again and play with her back to the crowds, indicates more strength to me than any tennis match, Monica ever won.

i like Monica....she's a nice piece of ass...in fact i think she's got better looking with age and those extra few pounds....

would she have won many other slams? you'd be hard pressed to say no..but how many is total speculation

i dont go in for all this 'St Monica' shit...before she was stabbed many fans didn't like her diva attitude...then when she was attacked..suddenly everybody loved her....many other people have had to cope with much worse than this and taken it in their stride

btw i don't think we'll see here again..professionally that is

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:48 PM
i liked all those players..i thought they were good...anyway...hold on..arent they the same players Monica was defeating on her way to winning slams?

They were good players, all of them. Aranxta was better than good. That's about it, really. Monica was beating them, as well as Navratilova, Sabatini, Graf, and Capriati while winning her Slams. And she made it look easy.

Martina Navratilova referred to the WTA Tour as "Steffi and the Seven Dwarfs" when she retired in 1994. :tape:

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:52 PM
i like Monica....she's a nice piece of ass...in fact i think she's got better looking with age and those extra few pounds....

would she have won many other slams? you'd be hard pressed to say no..but how many is total speculation

i dont go in for all this 'St Monica' shit...before she was stabbed many fans didn't like her diva attitude...then when she was attacked..suddenly everybody loved her....many other people have had to cope with much worse than this and taken it in their stride

btw i don't think we'll see here again..professionally that is

Yep, I agree. She isn't coming back. :sad:

She was a diva, in the truest sense of the word, before she got stabbed. She loved the spotlight. The only player who's come close to being a celebrity and diva like she was pre-stabbing is Serena Williams. Remember when she got booed during the trophy ceremony in 1991 at the US Open? :lol: They had nothing to criticise, so they used to pick on her grunting. When she came back, you have to understand, she was a different person as well. People embraced her because she wasn't winning everything in sight. I suppose she seemed more human - as screwed up as that sounds.

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:57 PM
Yep, I agree. She isn't coming back. :sad:

She was a diva, in the truest sense of the word, before she got stabbed. She loved the spotlight. The only player who's come close to being a celebrity and diva like she was pre-stabbing is Serena Williams. Remember when she got booed during the trophy ceremony in 1991 at the US Open? :lol: They had nothing to criticise, so they used to pick on her grunting. When she came back, you have to understand, she was a different person as well. People embraced her because she wasn't winning everything in sight. I suppose she seemed more human - as screwed up as that sounds.

btw i didn't mean that as in im glad she's not coming back :)

yeah i know what you mean about Monica second time around. then again what do twats like me know about her personally.

dumb
Oct 3rd, 2006, 01:01 PM
They were good players, all of them. Aranxta was better than good. That's about it, really. Monica was beating them, as well as Navratilova, Sabatini, Graf, and Capriati while winning her Slams. And she made it look easy.

Martina Navratilova referred to the WTA Tour as "Steffi and the Seven Dwarfs" when she retired in 1994. :tape:

lol I never heard that before....

she kinda get's on my tits now Navratilova...she comes across as a self-absorbed all knowing sage...it's as well that's all she has to complain about...she's never had to rear four kids with a dodgy pram..and a hubby constantly on the razzle

thrust
Oct 3rd, 2006, 01:23 PM
The stabbing DID chanage the history of women^s tennis. Unfortunately, the German fan who stabbed Monica got practically no punishment at all. Steffi was a very lucky lady that day.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 01:46 PM
That interview was soo touching! :sad:

However, I dont see Monica as the greatest ever because of the career slam thing. She clearly was dominating, but I still dont see her winning at Wimbledon. Specially in the mid 90's when grass court tennis was a lot faster than in the recent years. yes she beat Navratilova in the 92 semis, but the way Steffi handled her in the final makes u wonder. And yes ppl will bring up the grunting issue, but realistically, even a grunting Monica wud've had difficulty winning a set off Steffi in that match.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 01:53 PM
The comparison with Roger is a faulty one because there is no guarantee that Roger will win any more slams in his career. Sure, it's likely that he will, but is it a given? No.


That is what I was going to say. Steffi after the 1990 Australian Open had even better numbers than Roger and Monica. She had won each Grandslam atleast twice, 9 GS titles in total ,winning 8 of the last 9. Nobody in Feb 1990 would've thought that 12 months later Steffi wud not have a single GS title.
But that is exactly what happened. Monica was better on clay that year, Steffi's dad's scandle came up etc etc.
Roger might go on to win the next 10 majors, but there is no gaurentee that Monica would've done the same thing.

Shonami Slam
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:00 PM
actually - it mostly provesseles isbetter than roger, which is obvios because women's tennis>men's tennis

:)

ceiling_fan
Oct 3rd, 2006, 02:34 PM
wow :bowdown:

these stats just prove to me how GREAT monica was.

damn shame..

Philbo
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:20 PM
i liked all those players..i thought they were good...anyway...hold on..arent they the same players Monica was defeating on her way to winning slams?

Yes they were, with one major difference - Steffi was in the field most of the time when Monica won, Steffi only had to beat the 7 dwarves without Monica there to make it difficult.

LDVTennis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:24 PM
why is this such a ridiculous assertion? seles was winning left and right when she was years younger that roger is now. their records are extremely comparable at this point.

many thought seles was quickly going to become the greatest of all time. she totally snatched everything from graf.


Roger's first major win came at Wimbledon. Monica never won at Wimbledon, never came close unless you count that 6-2/6-1 thrashing by Steffi in '92.

Roger is a great athlete, whose game, all the variety notwithstanding, is based on three elements: a precise serve with great variety in placement, specifically to the extremes, a slice backhand to effect tactical positioning, and a forehand with infinite variety in placement, pace, and spin. Let's see. Does that sound like Seles' game at all? It does sound like Steffi's game. Heck, it was Steffi's game. Credit to Steffi for being the only woman to have been able to play like most of the greatest male players have for over the last 25+ years, from Lendl to Sampras to Federer. That just shows you why she was so respected by the ATP players when she was still playing the game.

For all the talk of snatching everything from Graf, why is that Steffi had a winning record against Seles when Seles was No. 1?

But, please continue, this is entertaining.

Philbo
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:26 PM
If you want to put an asterisk next to all of Steffi's slams just because Monica was stabbed, then fine, put an asterisk next to Justine's USO and AO wins because the Williams weren't there. Put an asterisk next to Myskina and Sveta's slams because Clijsters wasn't there and JHH was languishing in a cloud of viruses. Put an asterisk next to Maria's USO win this year because Clijsters and Venus were injured.

My point is that this sort of speculation can go on forever, and all it does is lessen the achievements of other players who, like it or not, earned their success fair and square.

I completely disagree with this point. It makes me mad when people trivialise what happened to Monica as 'just another injury' - your comparison to Myskina, Svetas, Justines slams etc really does make a mockery of what Monica suffered through.

Just take a step back for a minute, and picture getting a knife plunged into your back whilst sitting down on a change of ends - a place you should feel 100% safe and secure in, while playing a tennis match.

Now imagine that the person who did that to you, did it BECAUSE you were the best tennis player in the world. Its a miracle Monica ever picked up another racquet.

I think Monica's plight should be viewed completely separately, and differently from the umpteen other injuries that players ROUTINELY put up with and endure.

Monica's injury wasnt wear and tear from playing too much, or having a fucked up schedule.

Monica was stabbed on a tennis court BECAUSE she was the #1 tennis player. That should not be trivialised 13 years later into just another injury on the tennis tour.

Ever.

Philbo
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:29 PM
Roger's first major win came at Wimbledon. Monica never won at Wimbledon, never came close unless you count that 6-2/6-1 thrashing by Steffi in '92.

Roger is a great athlete, whose game, all the variety notwithstanding, is based on three elements: a precise serve with great variety in placement, specifically to the extremes, a slice backhand to effect tactical positioning, and a forehand with infinite variety in placement, pace, and spin. Let's see. Does that sound like Seles' game at all? It does sound like Steffi's game. Heck, it was Steffi's game. Credit to Steffi for being the only woman to have been able to play like most of the greatest male players have for over the last 25+ years, from Lendl to Sampras to Federer. That just shows you why she was so respected by the ATP players when she was still playing the game.

For all the talk of snatching everything from Graf, why is that Steffi had a winning record against Seles when Seles was No. 1?

But, please continue, this is entertaining.

LOL at LDV trying to compare Steffi's game to Federer's.

Newslash LDV - STeffi's backhand was a WEAKNESS! Players attacked her backhard WITH SUCCESS.

Federer comes over more backhands than he slices. Steffi came over 1 backhand in a hundred.

Your comparsion ends there.

Very entertaining attempt though lol.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:33 PM
Yes they were, with one major difference - Steffi was in the field most of the time when Monica won, Steffi only had to beat the 7 dwarves without Monica there to make it difficult.

Another difference was that Steffi was losing to the seven dwarfs more frequently than she was to Monica. you said yourself that Monica was not dominating Steffi because Steffi wasnt good enough to reach finals during that time. It was not like Steffi was beating everybody else, playing like she had in 87-89, reaching every final, losing only to Monica. From 91-93, Monica had only had to beat the dwarfs in 5 of her 7 GS wins. Steffi had started showing signs of recovering her old form at the end of 92-start of 93. The gap between her and Monica was not that great. We will never know what would've happened. Maybe Monica would've won more, maybe Steffi would've regained the edge. My point is that it just isnt a given that Monica was going to be the dominant player in 94-96.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:36 PM
LOL at LDV trying to compare Steffi's game to Federer's.

Newslash LDV - STeffi's backhand was a WEAKNESS! Players attacked her backhard WITH SUCCESS.

Federer comes over more backhands than he slices. Steffi came over 1 backhand in a hundred.

Your comparsion ends there.

Very entertaining attempt though lol.


Steffi's backhand was only a weakness on clay, and we were all blaming Federer's excessive use of the slice in the RG final. Players attacked her backhand with success? you mean like Navratilova who used to attack Steffi's backhand to rush to the net, but still lost 2 out of their 3 Wimbledon finals??

die_wahrheit
Oct 3rd, 2006, 03:59 PM
Seles was at her peak but never had a chance to reach 18 grand slam-titles as Navratilova or Evert as future showed. She was unable to improve her level as it was really necessary, so she had the desastrous h2h's against Williams or Hingis.
Seles was a prototype for the new power tennis in women's game. But sadly not perfect, not flexible enough for greater honors.




P.S.: without Wimbledon her record was clearly inferior to Federers. The crown juwel was missing. But that's obvious, just to repeat it.

LDVTennis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:19 PM
The other players were:

A retiring Martina Navratilova.
A burnt-out Gabriela Sabatini who's free-fall was beginning.
Jennifer Capriati was busy shoplifting and smoking pot.

That left Sanchez-Vicario, who wouldn't reach another GS final till RG 1994 and was only just starting to come into her own, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Conchita Martinez as the primary contenders. :tape: :help:

Funny, how these players only prove to be inferior opponents when Graf had to face them. But, when Seles had to face them in the major finals she won, they are miraculously worthy opponents.

In the 1991 AO Final, Seles faced Jana Novotna. This would be the Novotna whose best showing in any major final didn't come until '98 at Wimbledon. Yet, for that single match against Seles, Novotna was at her peak and at her best. Yeah, right!

In the 1991 French Open Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario. This would be the same Sanchez-Vicario who supposedly wasn't any good when Graf faced her in the mid-'90's.

In the 1991 US Open Final, Seles faced Martina N. In 1991, Martina was closer to retirement than she had been in 1988 or 1989 when Graf beat her on her best surface, grass. (Martina retired from singles play in '94.)

In the 1992 AO Final, Seles faced Mary Joe Fernandez. This would be the same Mary Joe Fernandez who wasn't any good when she had to face Graf. Give Mary Joe some credit she at least has one win against Seles in '89. She never did beat Graf though, 17-0.

In the 1992 FO Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario again. Worthy opponent for Seles, not a worthy opponent for Graf. Yeah, that is how it goes.

In only 3 of the 8 major finals that Seles won before '96 did she have to face Graf. In all the rest, Seles had to face players, except for Navratilova, who would only come close to their peaks much later. By that time, Graf had to contend with them, not Seles.

Apoorv
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
Funny, how these players only prove to be inferior opponents when Graf had to face them. But, when Seles had to face them in the major finals she won, they are miraculously worthy opponents.

In the 1991 AO Final, Seles faced Jana Novotna. This would be the Novotna whose best showing in any major final didn't come until '98 at Wimbledon. Yet, for that single match against Seles, Novotna was at her peak and at her best. Yeah, right!

In the 1991 French Open Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario. This would be the same Sanchez-Vicario who supposedly wasn't any good when Graf faced her in the mid-'90's.

In the 1991 US Open Final, Seles faced Martina N. In 1991, Martina was closer to retirement than she had been in 1988 or 1989 when Graf beat her on her best surface, grass. (Martina retired from singles play in '94.)

In the 1992 AO Final, Seles faced Mary Joe Fernandez. This would be the same Mary Joe Fernandez who wasn't any good when she had to face Graf. Give Mary Joe some credit she at least has one win against Seles in '89. She never did beat Graf though, 17-0.

In the 1992 FO Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario again. Worthy opponent for Seles, not a worthy opponent for Graf. Yeah, that is how it goes.

In only 3 of the 8 major finals that Seles won before '96 did she have to face Graf. In all the rest, Seles had to face players, except for Navratilova, who would only come close to their peaks much later. By that time, Graf had to contend with them, not Seles.

:eek: :worship:

Tel
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:33 PM
Yes they were, with one major difference - Steffi was in the field most of the time when Monica won, Steffi only had to beat the 7 dwarves without Monica there to make it difficult.

I’ve read a few of your posts (unfortunately). You know sod all about tennis. You’re just one fanatical Navratilova fan who detests Steffi Graf. There’s no insight nor absolutely no common ground involving Steffi with you. If you’re the kind of fan Martina attracted to tennis then the sport is better off without her.

Tel
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:36 PM
I must admit. I like "Hingis-Seles" even though he's a die-hard Monica fan. :)

Apoorv
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:40 PM
Seles had enough time to get over her emotional issues that she had from 95-98 etc. i think 3 years are enough for these issues. she did not work hard to get back in shape and dominate again. seles was back in form in 1995 and swept aside everyone except for graf. then things went down probably coz of her father's health issues but she was back in good form in 98 french open. but things again went down for her. coz she was overweight and could not work hard to get back in shape.

LDVTennis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:47 PM
Steffi's backhand was only a weakness on clay, and we were all blaming Federer's excessive use of the slice in the RG final. Players attacked her backhand with success? you mean like Navratilova who used to attack Steffi's backhand to rush to the net, but still lost 2 out of their 3 Wimbledon finals??

The only people who think that Steffi's slice backhand was a categorical weakness are those people who know nothing about the game of tennis.

The greatest irony of tennis history is that you have people like John McEnroe and Mats Wilander now extolling the virtues of the slice backhand, specifically on clay. We need only remember how hard they came down on Federer after losing the French Open for trying to come over his backhand too much. Under the windy conditions and against Nadal's extreme topspin, Federer was making too many unforced errors or just plainly mishitting the ball for the backhand topspin to be effective. Plus, as McEnroe opined, he really needed to do something to force Nadal out of his hitting zone, and thus lesson the effects of Nadal's extreme topspin. Had he used the slice backhand more, both Mats and John wondered, he might have won that FO Final. In other words, had he played more like Graf, he might have won the French.

In general, when things go badly for Federer on the court, they go badly because he is mishitting his topspin backhand. Most of the time he is much more consistent when he uses the slice, particularly that short slice, to set up the points for the forehand winner.

On the subject of that short slice, the shot more than any other that has distinguished Federer as a tennis genius, it may shock some of you to learn that he wasn't the first Swiss guy who invented it or the first Swiss guy who recognized its tactical advantage. That would be Heinz Gunthardt. While Heinz may never have had the forehand with which to seal the deal after hitting the short slice, he did happen to coach someone in the 90's who did. From '95 to '96, Steffi made brilliant use of this shot. Yet, Federer gets all the credit for being brilliant.

One more thing. On the subject of those weak slice backhands. In this year's US Open Final, Federer broke Roddick in that crucial game of the third set by passing him with a slice backhand crosscourt. Not topspin, but slice. So, it wasn't your everyday slice backhand. Federer cut the ball so that it dropped just over the net at an extreme crosscourt angle. It was a brilliant shot. It was a shot that Graf fans would have recognized because Graf perfected it in beating Martina N. and Novotna.

So much for the theory that slice backhands are weak shots by definition.

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:48 PM
Funny, how these players only prove to be inferior opponents when Graf had to face them. But, when Seles had to face them in the major finals she won, they are miraculously worthy opponents.

In the 1991 AO Final, Seles faced Jana Novotna. This would be the Novotna whose best showing in any major final didn't come until '98 at Wimbledon. Yet, for that single match against Seles, Novotna was at her peak and at her best. Yeah, right!

In the 1991 French Open Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario. This would be the same Sanchez-Vicario who supposedly wasn't any good when Graf faced her in the mid-'90's.

In the 1991 US Open Final, Seles faced Martina N. In 1991, Martina was closer to retirement than she had been in 1988 or 1989 when Graf beat her on her best surface, grass. (Martina retired from singles play in '94.)

In the 1992 AO Final, Seles faced Mary Joe Fernandez. This would be the same Mary Joe Fernandez who wasn't any good when she had to face Graf. Give Mary Joe some credit she at least has one win against Seles in '89. She never did beat Graf though, 17-0.

In the 1992 FO Final, Seles faced Sanchez-Vicario again. Worthy opponent for Seles, not a worthy opponent for Graf. Yeah, that is how it goes.

In only 3 of the 8 major finals that Seles won before '96 did she have to face Graf. In all the rest, Seles had to face players, except for Navratilova, who would only come close to their peaks much later. By that time, Graf had to contend with them, not Seles.

In all the tournaments you mention, Graf was in the draw, except 1992 in Australia. When Steffi was beating up on these dwarves, there was no Monica around. When Monica was beating up on these dwarves, it was usually because they'd defeated Steffi beforehand.

1991 AO: Monica won that title as the #2 seed. Where was Steffi? She was sent packing in the quarters, losing to Novotna.

1991 RG: Monica wins the title. Steffi was humiliated 6-0, 6-2 in the semifinals by Sanchez-Vicario.

1992 AO: Steffi is missing with German measles. Seles crushes Mary Joe Fernandez and wins again.

1992 RG: Seles did not face Sanchez-Vicario in the final. She defeated Graf in the final in what many regard as one of the greatest matches of all time. Steffi was the superior athlete, yet Monica was the one who outlasted her to win 10-8 in the final set. This match highlighted Monica's mental toughness, a category in which Steffi could never match her.

Of the 8 Slams she won before the stabbing, Seles won 7 of them with Graf in the draw. Graf lost four times before the final. Of the 3 Slams Graf won from 1990 to the time of the stabbing, Seles was in the draw of only one of those events (1992 Wimbledon). Further, post-stabbing Steffi won 6 Slams without Seles in the draw.

Pre-stabbing, Seles and Graf played 4 Grand Slam finals. Monica came out as the winner three times.

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:49 PM
I must admit. I like "Hingis-Seles" even though he's a die-hard Monica fan. :)

Thank You. :)

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:56 PM
Funny, how these players only prove to be inferior opponents when Graf had to face them. But, when Seles had to face them in the major finals she won, they are miraculously worthy opponents.

And not to mention that ASV of 93-96 was far better than the ASV of 91-93. Jana Novotna of 93-96 was much more consistent than the Jana of 91-93. Mary Joe of 1993 was better than herself of 91-92. Add Mary Pierce and Conchita Martinez to the mix, and the 93-96 dwarfs start looking pretty mighty compared to the field of 91-93.

Tel
Oct 3rd, 2006, 04:59 PM
Thank You. :)

In all seriousness. The likes of yourself and LDV hold such varying view points on the matter. But it’s clearly evident that there’s not the vindictiveness and spurious negativity that’s aimed at Steffi by the likes of “Czechfan” by either of you concerning “Monica or Steffi”.

Sha_ra_po_va
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:00 PM
Monica was also down in her H2H against Steffi, just as Roger is to Nadal. And are you seriously suggesting that Nadal doesn't have the game to overtake Roger without him being stabbed? I didn't think so.....

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:02 PM
In all the tournaments you mention, Graf was in the draw, except 1992 in Australia. When Steffi was beating up on these dwarves, there was no Monica around. When Monica was beating up on these dwarves, it was usually because they'd defeated Steffi beforehand.

Thankyou for saying that. So the dwarfs were beating Steffi in 91-93, but they werent in 93-96... My point exactly, Monica was dominating the dwarves, who were beating Steffi. Steffi wasn't playing upto her usual standards, heck she was losing to the players whose improved versions she would beat later on , in such a fashion that they were labelled as the dwarves!

What good is the presence in the field? Monica was present in the draws from 95 USO onwards... Was she the same Monica? Are u telling me Steffi's GS titles in 95,96 cant be questioned because Monica was present in the draws?

Apoorv
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:05 PM
Thankyou for saying that. So the dwarfs were beating Steffi in 91-93, but they werent in 93-96... My point exactly, Monica was dominating the dwarves, who were beating Steffi. Steffi wasn't playing upto her usual standards, heck she was losing to the players whose improved versions she would beat later on , in such a fashion that they were labelled as the dwarves!

What good is the presence in the field? Monica was present in the draws from 95 USO onwards... Was she the same Monica? Are u telling me Steffi's GS titles in 95,96 cant be questioned because Monica was present in the draws?

bang on the target! :bounce:

LDVTennis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:10 PM
In all the tournaments you mention, Graf was in the draw, except 1992 in Australia. When Steffi was beating up on these dwarves, there was no Monica around. When Monica was beating up on these dwarves, it was usually because they'd defeated Steffi beforehand.

The effect is the same. So, it is immaterial whether or not Graf was in the draw.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that these players were not worthy opponents when Graf had to face them in major finals after the AO Open in '93. But, all of a sudden, they were when Seles had to face them in finals before '93.

It seems now that you understand the contradiction somewhat because you've started to refer to such players as dwarves, regardless of whether it was Steffi or Monica that the dwarves faced.

I cannot be so dismissive. I think that Sanchez-Vicario was a very good player. It was her terrible misfortune to have to face someone who was just a more magnificent athlete than she was during the best years of her career. As for Conchita, she was quite a creative player, with amazing variety. She just never seemed as determined as Sanchez and Graf to win. Today's game would be so lucky if it had younger versions of players like Sanchez and Conchita, players with such guts, determination, and creativity.

Lenafan
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:14 PM
Before that horrific event, Seles was the greatest fighter and most mentally tough player I have ever seen on the women's side.

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:17 PM
Thankyou for saying that. So the dwarfs were beating Steffi in 91-93, but they werent in 93-96... My point exactly, Monica was dominating the dwarves, who were beating Steffi. Steffi wasn't playing upto her usual standards, heck she was losing to the players whose improved versions she would beat later on , in such a fashion that they were labelled as the dwarves!

What good is the presence in the field? Monica was present in the draws from 95 USO onwards... Was she the same Monica? Are u telling me Steffi's GS titles in 95,96 cant be questioned because Monica was present in the draws?

Monica's fields included Gabriela Sabatini. She beat up on Steffi AND Monica. Martina Navratilova, the 1990 Wimbledon Champion, the 1991 US Open finalist and YEC finalist in 1991 and 1992 was Top 5 back then as well. Ofcourse, she wasn't at the Graf and Seles level, but she did score the occassional win over them (on an entirely different note, people keep talking about Seles-Capriati in the 1991 US Open semis, but wasn't the Graf-Navratilova match so much more dramatic and aesthetically pleasing to watch?). Jennifer Capriati was a part of that mix too, perhaps most famous for the Olympic gold medal win in Barcelona. The majority of the 1990s was Graf and Seles, though, since they were the only two women at that level, while the rest of the tour was a couple of notches lower. With Seles out of the picture, Graf had no equal. When Monica was around, she and Steffi had someone else to push the other to her limits, phsyically and mentally.

On a final note, I don't question any of Steffi's GS titles. Whatever happened, at the end of the day somebody had to win those tournaments. They weren't going to be put on hold for anyone - no matter how traumatic the circumstances for said person's absence. Having said that, Steffi's 22 Slams hold less weight, in my eyes, than Navratilova and Evert's 18 Slams. Ofcourse, no one can compare to the great Margaret Court's 24 major singles championships, but I digress.

Lenafan
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:19 PM
Seles had enough time to get over her emotional issues that she had from 95-98 etc. i think 3 years are enough for these issues..

Says who? Three years is enough for a stabbing in the middle of a tennis match? Do you have figures for other heinous crimes and how long it should take victims of crimes to get over the emotional issues caused because of the crimes commited against them? Retarded post. Give me a break. :rolleyes:

hingis-seles
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:22 PM
I cannot be so dismissive. I think that Sanchez-Vicario was a very good player. It was her terrible misfortune to have to face someone who was just a more magnificent athlete than she was during the best years of her career. As for Conchita, she was quite a creative player, with amazing variety. She just never seemed as determined as Sanchez and Graf to win. Today's game would be so lucky if it had younger versions of players like Sanchez and Conchita, players with such guts, determination, and creativity.

I agree. I have always felt the same way about Aranxta, as can be evidenced from one of my earlier posts in this thread. It was unfortunate for her, that she had to face Seles and Graf at their respective peaks. Players with lesser hearts would not have achieved what she has, given the circumstances.

faboozadoo15
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:45 PM
For all the talk of snatching everything from Graf, why is that Steffi had a winning record against Seles when Seles was No. 1?

But, please continue, this is entertaining.
Monica dominated the tour and lost some matches to steffi.

federed dominates the tour and loses some matches to nadal.

sounds really similar to me....

no one in here was comparing their games, just their domination :worship:

ALG~FAN
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:45 PM
I just wish for a return to the good old days when Dominique Van Roost ruled the tour.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:50 PM
Monica's fields included Gabriela Sabatini. She beat up on Steffi AND Monica. Martina Navratilova, the 1990 Wimbledon Champion, the 1991 US Open finalist and YEC finalist in 1991 and 1992 was Top 5 back then as well. Ofcourse, she wasn't at the Graf and Seles level, but she did score the occassional win over them (on an entirely different note, people keep talking about Seles-Capriati in the 1991 US Open semis, but wasn't the Graf-Navratilova match so much more dramatic and aesthetically pleasing to watch?). Jennifer Capriati was a part of that mix too, perhaps most famous for the Olympic gold medal win in Barcelona.

But Gaby was present in the GS draws in 93-96. Steffi beat her in slams 3 or 4 times. She was there! Same for Martina. She was present in the draws till the start of 95. Jennifer was there till the start of 94! Besides, she managed to beat Steffi only once and had lost to her 4 times after that win before she disappeared.
We had more players coming up in 95-96. Lindsay Davenport, Martina Hingis werent the big names back then, but they had already started notching up big wins.



The majority of the 1990s was Graf and Seles, though, since they were the only two women at that level, while the rest of the tour was a couple of notches lower. With Seles out of the picture, Graf had no equal. When Monica was around, she and Steffi had someone else to push the other to her limits, phsyically and mentally.

But Monica was basically up against the dwarves in 91. She didnt beat Steffi once in 91. She won 4 slams beating up on poor dwarves to establish herself , gaining the confidance of a #1 player before facing a 'real' challenge at the 92 RG. She barely won that match, but managed to win just three games in the Wimbledon final.

On a final note, I don't question any of Steffi's GS titles. Whatever happened, at the end of the day somebody had to win those tournaments. They weren't going to be put on hold for anyone - no matter how traumatic the circumstances for said person's absence. Having said that, Steffi's 22 Slams hold less weight, in my eyes, than Navratilova and Evert's 18 Slams. Ofcourse, no one can compare to the great Margaret Court's 24 major singles championships, but I digress.

Thats purely your opinion. IMO Steffi's GS titles hold more weight, because she won them on different surfaces. She was a more complete player than Martina or Chris. Her game was better suited to the four surfaces. Plus The way she dominated the tour in 95,96 despite all the offcourt problems takes a lot of character. I dont see any of the active players doing that. And not sure about Chris, but I certainly dont see Martina Navratilova performing as well as Steffi did under those circumstances! But thats just my opinion.

MistyGrey
Oct 3rd, 2006, 05:52 PM
I just wish for a return to the good old days when Dominique Van Roost ruled the tour.
:lol: :bounce: :worship:

LDVTennis
Oct 3rd, 2006, 06:47 PM
Monica dominated the tour and lost some matches to steffi.

federed dominates the tour and loses some matches to nadal.

sounds really similar to me....

no one in here was comparing their games, just their domination :worship:


Federer has won Wimbledon 3 times with his superior movement, variety on the serve, and forehand.

Seles failed to win Wimbledon because she didn't move very well on grass, didn't have a very good serve, and couldn't hit forehands off of low, skidding balls.

Doesn't sound at all similar to me. Anyone who thinks that Federer and Seles are at all similar is kidding themselves.

Ultimate domination in the sport is what Graf did in '88 and from '95 to '96. In '88, she won all four majors in a calendar year, last man or woman to do so. As I see it, Federer has some catching up to do. If he wins the French next year, he's got a real chance of matching what Graf did in '88.

faboozadoo15
Oct 3rd, 2006, 09:59 PM
Monica was also down in her H2H against Steffi, just as Roger is to Nadal. And are you seriously suggesting that Nadal doesn't have the game to overtake Roger without him being stabbed? I didn't think so.....
i'd suggest that. there's NO argument for nadal even coming close to fed on grass and hardcourts. that leaves nadal with his clay, where federer had match points against him in rome this year. look and see what happens next year on the red stuff ;)

mboyle
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:19 PM
If my Dad's ex-girlfriend hadn't become a born-again, scared-of-catholics Christian, he probably would have married her, and then I would not have been born.

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:23 PM
.

Ultimate domination in the sport is what Graf did in '88 and from '95 to '96. In '88, she won all four majors in a calendar year, last man or woman to do so. As I see it, Federer has some catching up to do. If he wins the French next year, he's got a real chance of matching what Graf did in '88.

You believe you can simply scream the same propaganda over and over and somehow your repetitiveness will make your fantasies become truth.

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:29 PM
If my Dad's ex-girlfriend hadn't become a born-again, scared-of-catholics Christian, he probably would have married her, and then I would not have been born.

...I think that you're not in the least bit funny so my suggestion to you is to stop trying...

Humor requres a minimum degree of intelligence and WIT...being witless, you're not qualified to attempt this (for you) very tricky manuever.

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:34 PM
The only people who think that Steffi's slice backhand was a categorical weakness are those people who know nothing about the game of tennis.

The greatest irony of tennis history is that you have people like John McEnroe and Mats Wilander now extolling the virtues of the slice backhand, specifically on clay. We need only remember how hard they came down on Federer after losing the French Open for trying to come over his backhand too much. Under the windy conditions and against Nadal's extreme topspin, Federer was making too many unforced errors or just plainly mishitting the ball for the backhand topspin to be effective. Plus, as McEnroe opined, he really needed to do something to force Nadal out of his hitting zone, and thus lesson the effects of Nadal's extreme topspin. Had he used the slice backhand more, both Mats and John wondered, he might have won that FO Final. In other words, had he played more like Graf, he might have won the French.

In general, when things go badly for Federer on the court, they go badly because he is mishitting his topspin backhand. Most of the time he is much more consistent when he uses the slice, particularly that short slice, to set up the points for the forehand winner.

On the subject of that short slice, the shot more than any other that has distinguished Federer as a tennis genius, it may shock some of you to learn that he wasn't the first Swiss guy who invented it or the first Swiss guy who recognized its tactical advantage. That would be Heinz Gunthardt. While Heinz may never have had the forehand with which to seal the deal after hitting the short slice, he did happen to coach someone in the 90's who did. From '95 to '96, Steffi made brilliant use of this shot. Yet, Federer gets all the credit for being brilliant.

One more thing. On the subject of those weak slice backhands. In this year's US Open Final, Federer broke Roddick in that crucial game of the third set by passing him with a slice backhand crosscourt. Not topspin, but slice. So, it wasn't your everyday slice backhand. Federer cut the ball so that it dropped just over the net at an extreme crosscourt angle. It was a brilliant shot. It was a shot that Graf fans would have recognized because Graf perfected it in beating Martina N. and Novotna.

So much for the theory that slice backhands are weak shots by definition.


You sprout a lot of b.s. without backing it up with real facts or a framework of knowledge. Your absurd statements totally destroy what little credibility you have, which mitigates even the statements you've made that actually make sense-and you've actually made a couple of those (out of scores).

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:43 PM
I'm not dissing Seles because I believe she was a great tennis player.

But IMO, and again, IN MY OPINION, she would have brought more to this argument had she not succumbed to the trauma of the stabbing. What is a great champion anyway? One who persists against all odds. Sure, it was a scary time for her. And she was never the same. No one blames her. She was very unfortunate. But in spite of all that, had she been the same, then maybe that would've made all the difference. :tape:

You are simply a stupendous repository of human knowledge.

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:49 PM
If you want to put an asterisk next to all of Steffi's slams just because Monica was stabbed, then fine, put an asterisk next to Justine's USO and AO wins because the Williams weren't there. Put an asterisk next to Myskina and Sveta's slams because Clijsters wasn't there and JHH was languishing in a cloud of viruses. Put an asterisk next to Maria's USO win this year because Clijsters and Venus were injured.

My point is that this sort of speculation can go on forever, and all it does is lessen the achievements of other players who, like it or not, earned their success fair and square.

Are we talking about the same Steffi Graf here?

Graf's the biggest phoney I've seen on a pro tennis court.

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:52 PM
i like Monica....she's a nice piece of ass...in fact i think she's got better looking with age and those extra few pounds....

would she have won many other slams? you'd be hard pressed to say no..but how many is total speculation

i dont go in for all this 'St Monica' shit...before she was stabbed many fans didn't like her diva attitude...then when she was attacked..suddenly everybody loved her....many other people have had to cope with much worse than this and taken it in their stride

btw i don't think we'll see here again..professionally that is

Not that I need convincing now, but I'm even more convinced by this post that you're the idiot here, not "Gunther Parche".

Jessons
Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:58 PM
That interview was soo touching! :sad:

However, I dont see Monica as the greatest ever because of the career slam thing. She clearly was dominating, but I still dont see her winning at Wimbledon. Specially in the mid 90's when grass court tennis was a lot faster than in the recent years. yes she beat Navratilova in the 92 semis, but the way Steffi handled her in the final makes u wonder. And yes ppl will bring up the grunting issue, but realistically, even a grunting Monica wud've had difficulty winning a set off Steffi in that match.

Yes, and anyone can do ANYTHING they want to do...on the Internet. Dude, if you're going to LIE, at least make it believable.

Jessons
Oct 4th, 2006, 12:10 AM
Roger's first major win came at Wimbledon. Monica never won at Wimbledon, never came close unless you count that 6-2/6-1 thrashing by Steffi in '92.

Roger is a great athlete, whose game, all the variety notwithstanding, is based on three elements: a precise serve with great variety in placement, specifically to the extremes, a slice backhand to effect tactical positioning, and a forehand with infinite variety in placement, pace, and spin. Let's see. Does that sound like Seles' game at all? It does sound like Steffi's game. Heck, it was Steffi's game. Credit to Steffi for being the only woman to have been able to play like most of the greatest male players have for over the last 25+ years, from Lendl to Sampras to Federer. That just shows you why she was so respected by the ATP players when she was still playing the game.

For all the talk of snatching everything from Graf, why is that Steffi had a winning record against Seles when Seles was No. 1?

But, please continue, this is entertaining.

Did you take your meds yet? We can't have you running around like that, now can we?

Rexman
Oct 4th, 2006, 12:58 AM
i'd suggest that. there's NO argument for nadal even coming close to fed on grass and hardcourts. that leaves nadal with his clay, where federer had match points against him in rome this year. look and see what happens next year on the red stuff ;)

I guess aside from the fact that Rafael is 2-1 against Roger on hardcourts?

~Eclipsed~
Oct 4th, 2006, 02:26 AM
WOW Jessons, i've never seen anyone attack so many people at once on this board. Looks like there's a new troublemaker in town. He makes dreamgoddess look nice. (just kidding dreamgoddess lol).

faboozadoo15
Oct 4th, 2006, 05:21 AM
I guess aside from the fact that Rafael is 2-1 against Roger on hardcourts?
who the fuck cares? he beat roger there once in 2003? maybe. and roger was sick, miami. and then this year in dubai. meanwhile, roger is winning all the titles on fast courts...

FaileBashere
Oct 4th, 2006, 06:15 AM
Pointless discussion, yes. Nevertheless, entertaining. Some fans are downright foolish.

One thing I noticed, though, is that Steffi Graf discussions in these boards can strive with fruitful tennis discussions based on her character, techniques, and overall demeanor albeit with few interruptions from some unreasonable Seles fanatics. But everytime I come across a Seles thread, it ends up being all about Steffi. She sure is very popular still in this forum, haters and all.

Philbo
Oct 4th, 2006, 08:37 AM
I’ve read a few of your posts (unfortunately). You know sod all about tennis. You’re just one fanatical Navratilova fan who detests Steffi Graf. There’s no insight nor absolutely no common ground involving Steffi with you. If you’re the kind of fan Martina attracted to tennis then the sport is better off without her.

Post under your real username you gutless wonder.

hingis-seles
Oct 4th, 2006, 08:50 AM
Pointless discussion, yes. Nevertheless, entertaining. Some fans are downright foolish.

One thing I noticed, though, is that Steffi Graf discussions in these boards can strive with fruitful tennis discussions based on her character, techniques, and overall demeanor albeit with few interruptions from some unreasonable Seles fanatics. But everytime I come across a Seles thread, it ends up being all about Steffi. She sure is very popular still in this forum, haters and all.

Everytime you come across a Seles thread, it ends up being all about Steffi because even 13 years after one of their own attacked her for being the best, most of Graf's fans are all still obsessed with Monica Seles.

vutt
Oct 4th, 2006, 08:58 AM
I miss Cali...

metamorpha
Oct 4th, 2006, 09:15 AM
Everytime you come across a Seles thread, it ends up being all about Steffi because even 13 years after one of their own attacked her for being the best, most of Graf's fans are all still obsessed with Monica Seles.


:haha:

FaileBashere
Oct 4th, 2006, 09:53 AM
Everytime you come across a Seles thread, it ends up being all about Steffi because even 13 years after one of their own attacked her for being the best, most of Graf's fans are all still obsessed with Monica Seles.


Nah, I don't think so. For a Graf fan, what's to be obsessed about Seles anyway? Yeah, she was a rival. So what? Others were, too. Graf and Seles will forever be linked together, but that's just a small part of Graf's history. It wasn't even her fault. Why some people take it personally is beyond me. If I had been a Seles fan, I'll talk about how great she was and still is, how she inspires me to be a better person myself, and although some unfortunate event claimed her chance to prove herself great, it doesn't matter because to me she already is the greatest. But then again. I'm not a Seles fan. And I'm not going to argue with one because as I see it, someone so inclined to do so is 3/4 Steffi hater and 1/4 Monica fan. So I say, do your thing. Whatever makes you happy. It wouldn't change history.

jimbo mack
Oct 4th, 2006, 11:12 AM
i mean, what if hingis had been stabbed before the french open in 1998? or if serena had been stabbed after wimbledon 2003? we'd all think they'd have gone on to win for years.

exactly, it's ridiculous to assume for instance that monica would have won 10 more slams

nothing is set in stone

faboozadoo15
Oct 5th, 2006, 12:43 AM
exactly, it's ridiculous to assume for instance that monica would have won 10 more slams

nothing is set in stone
i wouldn't say it's ridiculous, it's just pointless.