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borisy
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:06 PM
If they make a list of top 10 best athletes ever (with Bubka, Jordan etc), should Steffi be included in that?

Karolina_Sprem
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:07 PM
Yes she should...
She is one of the best ever....

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:07 PM
Men and women together, maybe, she might get in, ten's an awfully low number for a lot of sports, that's all. Women only, absolutely.

Wayn77
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:21 PM
Also the greatest female tennis player ever.

Helen Lawson
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:43 PM
If it's a mixed men's and women's list, it's going to be hard for any tennis player to get on it. There's realistically one spot for a male or female tennis player, one maximum, and while Steffi had an amazing career, I can't really say that like 4-5 other men and women in tennis didn't have comparable or arguably as good or better careers. With a list of 10 and 10 only, you need one person from any given sport that is so far and away better than anyone else in their sport that they get on the list. I don't see Steffi being considered far and away and inarguably better than like Martina or Margaret Court, or some of the leading guys like Rod Laver or Pete.


A list of 10, mixed men and women, is just too short, imo, to really include any tennis player on it. None of these people are like so far and away better than the others as to merit inclusion to the exclusion of the others, which is what this list would require.

mr_burns
Aug 22nd, 2006, 09:50 PM
ok let's make alist with the 10 best women in sports

From Germany. Steffi Graf and Heike Drechsler

mauresmofan
Aug 22nd, 2006, 10:41 PM
10 best women in sport - Sprinter Merlene Ottey should be up there 8 Olympic medals, 14 World Outdoor medals, 6 world indoor medals and she's still going strong at 46.

Reuchlin
Aug 22nd, 2006, 10:42 PM
Here's my list of best tennis players ever

1.Martina Nav
2.Monica Seles :devil:
3.Steffi Graf

AlwaysGraf
Aug 22nd, 2006, 10:44 PM
i hope so but martina would get in before steffi i guess, not that i agree, its like my bf saying last nite madonna is more talented than kate bush ha ha ha ha

supermann
Aug 22nd, 2006, 11:07 PM
If they make a list of top 10 best athletes ever (with Bubka, Jordan etc), should Steffi be included in that?



SI did an Overrated/Underrated cover story a few years ago, and put Steffi Graf down in the former category.

supermann
Aug 22nd, 2006, 11:09 PM
Here's my list of best tennis players ever

1.Martina Nav
2.Monica Seles :devil:
3.Steffi Graf


1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Seles - except she was stabbed in the back.
4. Graf

:)

RJWCapriati
Aug 22nd, 2006, 11:16 PM
Yes, and Navratilova too

thrust
Aug 22nd, 2006, 11:52 PM
Of the great players I would say that Navratilova, Graf and Court were probably the finest athletes in women^s tennis. There probably are or were others who were great natural athletes, but not great tennis players.

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:01 AM
Of the great players I would say that Navratilova, Graf and Court were probably the finest athletes in women^s tennis. There probably are or were others who were great natural athletes, but not great tennis players.

It has already been proven in the 90s on how the SUPERIOR SHOTMAKER prevailed over the BETTER ATHLETE.

:)

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:07 AM
Some people tend to confuse athleticism with being an athlete. Just because you are very "athletic" does not necessarily mean that you are a great "athlete".

GrandSlam05
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:15 AM
It has already been proven in the 90s on how the SUPERIOR SHOTMAKER prevailed over the BETTER ATHLETE.

:)
Are you talking about Wimbledon '99? ;)

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:19 AM
Are you talking about Wimbledon '99? ;)


Although Chris Evert did not look like a typical athlete, I think I would consider her for this list. She competed for so many years and had a great number of titles while staying very healthy. ;)

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:22 AM
Yes, and Navratilova too


By the same token, Evonne Goolagong was extremely agile and graceful -- as was Maria Bueno -- and I think Althea Gibson, Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, Alice Marble, Helen Wills Moody, Louise Brough and Suzanne Lenglen all must have been great athletes.

thrust
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:24 AM
Serena Williams would have to be considered a great athlete, as well as a great tennis player. Chris Evert was an outstanding athlete, but not in the same league as Serena, Martina, or Steffi. What little she lacked in pure athletic ability she made up for in her shot making and mental strength.

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:27 AM
A list of 10, mixed men and women, is just too short, imo, to really include any tennis player on it. None of these people are like so far and away better than the others as to merit inclusion to the exclusion of the others, which is what this list would require.



I think some people take "top athletes" to mean players with the greatest innate physical gifts that suited them for the sport, not players whose talent, training, temperment, competitiveness and hard work made them top players DESPITE lack of innate physical gifts, like Chris Evert.

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 12:34 AM
Serena Williams would have to be considered a great athlete, as well as a great tennis player. Chris Evert was an outstanding athlete, but not in the same league as Serena, Martina, or Steffi. What little she lacked in pure athletic ability she made up for in her shot making and mental strength.

I always thought that eye to hand coordination, anticipation, and mental toughness were all part of *athletic ability* which are what Evert had in spades.

Chris Evert is unarguably one of the greatest athletes in women's sport history.

Cp6uja
Aug 23rd, 2006, 01:11 AM
ok let's make alist with the 10 best women in sports

From Germany. Steffi Graf and Heike Drechsler

Steffi Graf is the best world athlets (woman competition) in history of sport so far, but i'm not sure that Heike is in TOP10 (TOP20 - is OK for her). If Germans have two ladies in TOP10 - second is Katarina Witt (IMO).

In mans competition Germans TOP10 is already Michael Schumacher!

Cp6uja
Aug 23rd, 2006, 01:34 AM
If you ask me, tennis is so dominate sport in woman competition that in TOP10 woman athlets ever belonge 4 tennis player!

from tennis: Graf, Navratilova, Evert and B.J.King!!!

from track & field: Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Florence Griffith Joyner

from figure skating: Sonia Henie and Katarina Witt.

from gymnastics: Nadia Comaneci

and my last TOP10 woman best athlets advice i will post in 2020 because right now i dont know now who will be career better - Yelena Isinbayeva or Ana Ivanovic :devil: .

LDVTennis
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:38 AM
Some people tend to confuse athleticism with being an athlete. Just because you are very "athletic" does not necessarily mean that you are a great "athlete".

Not you. You've obviously confused the penchant for eating lots of buttered bread or taking steroids with being a great athlete.

GrandSlam05
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:47 AM
If you ask me, tennis is so dominate sport in woman competition that in TOP10 woman athlets ever belonge 4 tennis player!

from tennis: Graf, Navratilova, Evert and B.J.King!!!

from track & field: Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Florence Griffith Joyner

from figure skating: Sonia Henie and Katarina Witt.

from gymnastics: Nadia Comaneci

and my last TOP10 woman best athlets advice i will post in 2020 because right now i dont know now who will be career better - Yelena Isinbayeva or Ana Ivanovic :devil: .
I'd put Midori Ito above Witt or Henie. They were more known for their artistry and school figures than athleticism. The skating world had never seen anything like Midori before, and almost 20 years later, no one is even close to matching her athletic ability. The sheer talent was astounding.

serenafan08
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:55 AM
I think you'd have to include Steffi on that list. She's the only player in history to win each Grand Slam at least four times - and has a total of 22 Grand Slams. It takes a lot to win that many majors, and I don't think anyone will come close to matching that feat. I also think that Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova would have to be considered for that list as well.

serenafan08
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:58 AM
If you ask me, tennis is so dominate sport in woman competition that in TOP10 woman athlets ever belonge 4 tennis player!

from tennis: Graf, Navratilova, Evert and B.J.King!!!

from track & field: Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Florence Griffith Joyner

from figure skating: Sonia Henie and Katarina Witt.

from gymnastics: Nadia Comaneci

and my last TOP10 woman best athlets advice i will post in 2020 because right now i dont know now who will be career better - Yelena Isinbayeva or Ana Ivanovic :devil: .
Consider Lisa Leslie and Sheryl Swoopes - Sheryl especially. She's won at every level - an NCAA championship, four WNBA titles, and three Olympic gold medals.

LDVTennis
Aug 23rd, 2006, 05:00 AM
from tennis: Graf, Navratilova, Evert and B.J.King

Of these four, Steffi had the most ideal proportions for playing tennis or any other sport.

She is taller than Martina, Chris and Billy, by more than a foot over Martina.

She has longer and leaner muscles than Martina.

She was much faster than Martina, Chris, and Billy. In a sprint, none of them could compete with Steffi. Steffi runs like a sprinter; Martina, Chris and Billy did not.

Based on the velocity of her entire game, particularly her serve and her forehand, Steffi was also much stronger than Martina, Chris, and Billy.

Steffi is also what you would call a natural athlete. There is almost no fat on her body, it is all muscle. As Martina and Billy have aged, they've gained more weight and lost considerable muscle mass. Even after having two children, Steffi looks almost as good as she did in her prime.

Steffi's advantage over almost everyone who has ever played the sport is clearly genetic. Most women do not have proportions like Steffi, nor do they have the long, lean muscles she had. As women age, their hips tend to widen out. This happened to Martina, Chris, and Billy. It didn't happen to Steffi. Indeed, if you compare Steffi's body in 1989 to her body in 1996, you'll see that she actually appears to be more lean in her proportions in 1996.

jooj
Aug 23rd, 2006, 09:31 AM
Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

XMan
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:24 AM
According to wikipedia: "An athlete is a person possessing above average physical skills (strength, agility, and endurance) and thus seen suitable for physical activities, in particular, contests."

If the greatest athletes are supposed be persons who excell in physical skills then probably no tennis player will ever make the list. Tennis is a sport that requires more than just physical skills. A tennis player doesn't focus on physical skills alone. It would be logical if the list is filled with people that perform athletics, who are by definition called athletes.

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:55 AM
Not you. You've obviously confused the penchant for eating lots of buttered bread or taking steroids with being a great athlete.


She was pretty good ... as far as women tennis players go. The
problem with HER is twofold:

1. She had 2 or 3 great years before losing her #1 ranking until a
jealous fan of hers stabbed #1 Monica Seles in the back to reclaim any
semblance of #1 again.


2. Even with the stabbing of the red hot Monica Seles in the spring of
1993, SHE STILL did not establish any significant all-time records in
women's tennis other than the most U.S. Opens on hardcourts ... the
most weeks ranked #1 on the WTA computer rankings ... and the one for
having won each Slam 4 times (all of which would have, naturally, been
less likely if Seles had not been been stabbed by one of HER fanatical supporters.

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:05 AM
Of these four, Steffi had the most ideal proportions for playing tennis or any other sport.

She is taller than Martina, Chris and Billy, by more than a foot over Martina.

She has longer and leaner muscles than Martina.

She was much faster than Martina, Chris, and Billy. In a sprint, none of them could compete with Steffi. Steffi runs like a sprinter; Martina, Chris and Billy did not.

Based on the velocity of her entire game, particularly her serve and her forehand, Steffi was also much stronger than Martina, Chris, and Billy.

Steffi is also what you would call a natural athlete. There is almost no fat on her body, it is all muscle. As Martina and Billy have aged, they've gained more weight and lost considerable muscle mass. Even after having two children, Steffi looks almost as good as she did in her prime.

Steffi's advantage over almost everyone who has ever played the sport is clearly genetic. Most women do not have proportions like Steffi, nor do they have the long, lean muscles she had. As women age, their hips tend to widen out. This happened to Martina, Chris, and Billy. It didn't happen to Steffi. Indeed, if you compare Steffi's body in 1989 to her body in 1996, you'll see that she actually appears to be more lean in her proportions in 1996.


The lack of knowledge displayed by some of you on here is nothing short of amazing.

You would think that through osmosis only, if nothing else, some of the knowledge I provide on here would eventually rub off on you people. Some of you must have a thick semi-permeable membrane.

Come on ... let the knowledge through.

LDVTennis
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:05 PM
She was pretty good ... as far as women tennis players go. The
problem with HER is twofold:

1. She had 2 or 3 great years before losing her #1 ranking until a
jealous fan of hers stabbed #1 Monica Seles in the back to reclaim any
semblance of #1 again.


2. Even with the stabbing of the red hot Monica Seles in the spring of
1993, SHE STILL did not establish any significant all-time records in
women's tennis other than the most U.S. Opens on hardcourts ... the
most weeks ranked #1 on the WTA computer rankings ... and the one for
having won each Slam 4 times (all of which would have, naturally, been
less likely if Seles had not been been stabbed by one of HER fanatical supporters.


The question and topic is, Could Steffi be considered among the top 10 athletes regardless of sport?

The question and topic is not: (1) Your obsession with the stabbing of Monica Seles; (2) Your hatred of Steffi Graf because she continued to play tennis at a high level after Monica came back from the stabbing; or (3), Your bizarre view of tennis history - "no significant all-time records in women's tennis." (Ever heard of the Grand Slam? You know the thing that Martina wanted to accomplish so badly, but failed at doing, despite having had a much longer singles career than the last woman who did.)

Whatever the case, if you want to talk about Monica Seles or Martina N. in this thread, then, be prepared to discuss excessive weight gain and other such unflattering issues.

LDVTennis
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:14 PM
The lack of knowledge displayed by some of you on here is nothing short of amazing.

You would think that through osmosis only, if nothing else, some of the knowledge I provide on here would eventually rub off on you people. Some of you must have a thick semi-permeable membrane.

Come on ... let the knowledge through.

We all know what your agenda is --- To Denigrate Graf.

This wasn't a thread about Monica or Martina, but you couldn't resist getting in your digs at Steffi. So, here you are.

Sometimes you are more artful about it. But, here you really had to stretch the definition of an athlete so that you could bring up Monica's name. How ridiculous is that?

When you failed to generate the bandwagon effect you wanted with your claim that Monica was as good of an athlete as Steffi, you just had to go and create another thread --- Who is faster? Steffi or Venus.

Looks like that thread isn't going to generate all the hatred for Graf you might have wanted.

What now?

jrm
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
I find it unfair - you cannot compare any kind of sport today and 15,20 years ago!

Things have changed but yeah, she was a pioneer.

dav abu
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:22 PM
I would definitely include Steffi!

Belmont Lad
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:24 PM
Steffi absolutely belongs in that category

miranda_lou
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:33 PM
Chris Evert was an outstanding athlete

Even Chrissy didn't think she was a "real" athlete.:lol: Years ago, when she was in her prime, she was throwing around a football on the beach with Burt Reynolds (they dated back when he was handsome and had his own hair). Chrissy could not for the life of her catch that football. That's when she said "Everybody thinks I'm athletic because I play tennis, but I'm not." She meant that she was a great tennis player but other sports were beyond her.

P.S.: LDV, you're making way too much sense.:worship:

vswfan
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:43 PM
its hard to compare tennis with other sports
but Steffi is definitely one of top 10 best tennis players ever

samsung101
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:50 PM
Yes.

Time passing only makes what she
achieved seem all that more tremendous.

rjd1111
Aug 23rd, 2006, 04:54 PM
No!

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:04 PM
The question and topic is not: (1) Your obsession with the stabbing of Monica Seles; (2) Your hatred of Steffi Graf because she continued to play tennis at a high level after Monica came back from the stabbing; or


No. Here is what has the most to do with it:

when Graf was in her 20s there was a teenager who was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis during the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 while winning 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments between November 1990 and January 1993 before the young teenager was stabbed in the back with a knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

Did you forget to take your pills?

supermann
Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:08 PM
(Ever heard of the Grand Slam? You know the thing that Martina wanted to accomplish so badly, but failed at doing, despite having had a much longer singles career than the last woman who did.)




Was Graf #1 for 5 consecutive years?

Did Graf finish in the top 5 for 19 consecutive years?

Did Graf finish in the top 10 for 20 consecutive years?

Did Graf win over 160 titles in singles?

Did Graf win over 160 titles in doubles?

Did Graf have the all-time record for most singles titles at ANY of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis -- Wimbledon, the U.S. Open, the French Open, the Australian Open or the WTA Tour Championships?

The only player in women's tennis to have the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis was ... MARTINA NAVRATILOVA.

Navratilova is the only woman player to have the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis (Wimbledon and WTA Championships) .... the other 3 record holders at the biggest events are Evert (French), Mallory (U.S. Championships) and Court (Australian). Steffi doesn't show up as having the most at any of the biggest 5 events ---even with the stabbing.

SORRY.

supermann
Aug 24th, 2006, 12:04 AM
We all know what your agenda is --- To Denigrate Graf.

This wasn't a thread about Monica or Martina, but you couldn't resist getting in your digs at Steffi. So, here you are.

Sometimes you are more artful about it. But, here you really had to stretch the definition of an athlete so that you could bring up Monica's name. How ridiculous is that?


What now?

How can someone be more limited in tennis knowledge than LDV???) than I had originally thought.

I think your unique style of athleticism might grow on us in an amusing sort of way.

LDVTennis
Aug 24th, 2006, 01:40 AM
SORRY.

To bring all of your sorry rantings back on topic, let's take up the subject of Martina's athleticism.

For much of Martina N.'s early career, she struggled with her weight. Bud Collins even coined the term "Great Wide Hope" to describe her back then.

It wasn't until the early 80's that Martina got in the kind of shape to stand out as a top athlete in tennis, let alone any sport.

How exactly did Martina do that? We know that she started working out with Nancy Leiberman, a professional women's basketball player who became her trainer. It has also been well reported that Martina consulted with a dietician. There are also rumors, however, that Martina may have taken performance enhancing drugs (PED's). Those rumors have persisted because Martina has never denied unequivocally that she ever took steroids or other such drugs.

In a press conference at the 2004 Australian Open following her doubles match against Okamoto-Takemura, Martina was asked a series of leading questions about PED's. She never let her answers get personal enough to deny the outstanding claims that she took steroids. She did make this interesting observation --- "I know my trainer, we'll be walking down the street, there will be a guy that's really, really bulked up, she's like, 'Juicing.' You can just tell just by looking at people. Tennis players don't really benefit from that kind of a bulk. A little bit, yes. But too much would be actually harmful." The rumors about Martina started in large part because of the amount of bulk she put on after 1981 and her increased vascularity. At the time that Martina may or may not have been taking PED's, there was no testing regimen in tennis to identify users of such drugs.

The rumors of PED use notwithstanding, this much remains clear. Being a good athlete did not come easy for Martina. For some part of the first 6+ years of her career, she was as Bud Collins put it the "Great Wide Hope." Even after she got into the best shape of her career, Martina never impressed with her pure speed or the power on her groundstrokes. As an athlete, she excelled primarily because of her brute strength which allowed her to hit many stab volleys with her arm fully extended. There may be more to Martina's game than that, but not much more to her athletic prowess than brute strength.

That is why I think the photo taken of the multiple ladies champions at Wimbledon this year is so telling. At the center of the photo is Steffi and Margaret, really the two best athletes the sport has ever seen on the women's side. Both as tall and statuesque as ever. The surprise of seeing them stand together is that it actually appears as though Steffi is taller than the lady (Ms. Court) about whom it was once said that she towered over the sport. On the extreme left side is Martina, evern shorter now vis-a-vis Steffi than she was when they met at the net after the 1988 Wimbledon Final. From a physical standpoint, the years haven't seemed to diminish Margaret's stature at all. If that is true of Margaret, it is even more true of Steffi. Except for Margaret, the other women look like dwarfs next to Steffi. (Wisely, Chris chose to skip the whole event. She must have known it was a set up.) ;)

Natalicious
Aug 24th, 2006, 01:51 AM
yes, steffi should be on the list!!!

:worship: Steffi :worship:

supermann
Aug 24th, 2006, 02:39 AM
To bring all of your sorry rantings back on topic, let's take up the subject of Martina's athleticism.

For much of Martina N.'s early career, she struggled with her weight. Bud Collins even coined the term "Great Wide Hope" to describe her back then.

It wasn't until the early 80's that Martina got in the kind of shape to stand out as a top athlete in tennis, let alone any sport.

How exactly did Martina do that? We know that she started working out with Nancy Leiberman, a professional women's basketball player who became her trainer. It has also been well reported that Martina consulted with a dietician. There are also rumors, however, that Martina may have taken performance enhancing drugs (PED's). Those rumors have persisted because Martina has never denied unequivocally that she ever took steroids or other such drugs.

In a press conference at the 2004 Australian Open following her doubles match against Okamoto-Takemura, Martina was asked a series of leading questions about PED's. She never let her answers get personal enough to deny the outstanding claims that she took steroids. She did make this interesting observation --- "I know my trainer, we'll be walking down the street, there will be a guy that's really, really bulked up, she's like, 'Juicing.' You can just tell just by looking at people. Tennis players don't really benefit from that kind of a bulk. A little bit, yes. But too much would be actually harmful." The rumors about Martina started in large part because of the amount of bulk she put on after 1981 and her increased vascularity. At the time that Martina may or may not have been taking PED's, there was no testing regimen in tennis to identify users of such drugs.





LDVTennis, it appears you are making a veiled accusation that Martina Navratilova used some form of banned substance.

Now. PROVE IT.

supermann
Aug 24th, 2006, 02:51 AM
That is why I think the photo taken of the multiple ladies champions at Wimbledon this year is so telling. At the center of the photo is Steffi and Margaret, really the two best athletes the sport has ever seen on the women's side.



Hard to consider Graf among the best athletes ever when you know the facts of how she came back to the top in 1993.

LDVTennis is nothing but a clown with EXTREMELY limited knowledge of the sport.

sfselesfan
Aug 24th, 2006, 02:57 AM
Navratilova maybe. Graf no.

SF

Volcana
Aug 24th, 2006, 03:15 AM
If they make a list of top 10 best athletes ever (with Bubka, Jordan etc), should Steffi be included in that?Honestly, no. If you were going for '10 greatest athletic competitors within their own sport ever' she might have a shot. But 'ten greatest athletes'? How?

Sergei Bubka, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Pele, Mark Spitz, Lance Armstrong, Vasily Alexeyev, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Valery Borzov, Carl Lewis, Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Jim Ryun, Babe Ruth, Sadaharu Oh, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Eric Heiden,and that's not even getting into tennis players. In fact, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, and Babe Didrikson-Zaharias would get on such a list way before Graf.

Sports Illustrated for Women actually listed their idea of the top hundred female athlete of all time. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/siforwomen/top_100/1/. Not sure of the exact date, but it was after Graf retired. Here's their top twenty.

01. Jackie Joyner-Kersee, Track & Field
02. Babe Didrikson Zaharias, Track & Field
03. Billie Jean King, Tennis
04. Sonja Henie, Figure Skating
05. Martina Navratilova, Tennis
06. Chris Evert, Tennis
07. Bonnie Blair, Speed Skating
08. Wilma Rudolph, Track & Field
09. Nadia Comaneci, Gymnastics
10. Tracy Caulkins, Swimming
11. Florence Griffith Joyner, Track & Field
12. Mia Hamm, Soccer
13. Nancy Lopez, Golf
14. Steffi Graf, Tennis
15. Cheryl Miller, Basketball
16. Margaret Court, Tennis
17. Mary T. Meagher, Swimming
18. Olga Korbut, Gymnastics
19. Peggy Fleming, Figure Skating
20. Joan Benoit Samuelson, Distance Running

You can argue about the list. But the point is, Graf is NOT making the top ten when you include men, when it's debatable whether she'd be in the top ten among women.

Volcana
Aug 24th, 2006, 03:21 AM
ok let's make alist with the 10 best women in sports

From Germany. Steffi Graf and Heike DrechslerInteresting. Dreschsler was obviously a vastly superior to Graf, but not nearly as successful in her sport.

supermann
Aug 24th, 2006, 03:53 AM
Honestly, no. If you were going for '10 greatest athletic competitors within their own sport ever' she might have a shot. But 'ten greatest athletes'? How?

Sergei Bubka, Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Pele, Mark Spitz, Lance Armstrong, Vasily Alexeyev, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Valery Borzov, Carl Lewis, Jack Johnson, Muhammed Ali, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Jim Ryun, Babe Ruth, Sadaharu Oh, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Eric Heiden,and that's not even getting into tennis players. In fact, Jackie Joyner-Kersee, and Babe Didrikson-Zaharias would get on such a list way before Graf.

Sports Illustrated for Women actually listed their idea of the top hundred female athlete of all time. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/siforwomen/top_100/1/. Not sure of the exact date, but it was after Graf retired. Here's their top twenty.

01. Jackie Joyner-Kersee, Track & Field
02. Babe Didrikson Zaharias, Track & Field
03. Billie Jean King, Tennis
04. Sonja Henie, Figure Skating
05. Martina Navratilova, Tennis
06. Chris Evert, Tennis
07. Bonnie Blair, Speed Skating
08. Wilma Rudolph, Track & Field
09. Nadia Comaneci, Gymnastics
10. Tracy Caulkins, Swimming
11. Florence Griffith Joyner, Track & Field
12. Mia Hamm, Soccer
13. Nancy Lopez, Golf
14. Steffi Graf, Tennis
15. Cheryl Miller, Basketball
16. Margaret Court, Tennis
17. Mary T. Meagher, Swimming
18. Olga Korbut, Gymnastics
19. Peggy Fleming, Figure Skating
20. Joan Benoit Samuelson, Distance Running

You can argue about the list. But the point is, Graf is NOT making the top ten when you include men, when it's debatable whether she'd be in the top ten among women.

Great post.

In the Aug. 27, 2001 issue, Sports Illustrated dug deep to uncover the most overrated people, places and things in sports -- and celebrate the most underrated ones.


Tennis Player

Overrated
Steffi Graf

Underrated
Jack Kramer

Hall of Fame Pitcher

Overrated
Nolan Ryan

Underrated
Whitey Ford

Baseball Record

Overrated
Cal Ripken's
2,632 consecutive games played

Underrated
Joe DiMaggio's
56-game hitting streak

Dozens of other categories were also featured in the magazine.