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View Full Version : What does it mean to an Israeli if Hezbollah fighters are NOT hiding among civilians?


Volcana
Jul 31st, 2006, 04:35 AM
The answer to this may be 'nothing'.

The entire concept may be so far outside what you're used to regarding as true that you can't even give it credence.

But one thing about the USA, some of the most popular 'news' sources here lie 'through their teeth' on a regular basis. You HAVE to be skeptical of the media. it's all you got.

This thread (http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=252239) caught my eye, and neither the author nor the source is famously biased. Which brings up the following question.

What IF Hezbollah fighters really are NOT hiding among the civilians? I certainly know of no one who's ever offered evidence of that. I only know what the Israeli government says.

What if, rather than hiding among civilians, Hezbollah fighters are, in the traditional ways of guerilla war, firing from cover then changing locations quickly, before return fire can reach them. This would certainly account for their relatively low casualty rate.

It would also mean the IDF was targetting, not fighters hiding among civilians, but rather places where Hezbollah had recently fired missiles, but where they almost surely no longer were. This would be consistent with the high rate of civilian casualties. Hezbollah fighters know where they fired from, and thus where the IDF will be aiming. A civilian in the area only knows a rocket got fired from somewhere in the vicinity. He doesn't know which way to run.

All governments do their best to make their actions look deliberate, and controlled. Any news that comes from them is propaganda, virtually by definition.

Fingon
Jul 31st, 2006, 04:50 AM
I don't trust all the news sources blindly, but I don't doubt everything just because I haven't seen a proof, some times I follow what makes sense to me.

And no, I don't believe the Israelis are saints, but I do not believe they would deliberately target civilians, that doesn't help their cause and they achieved nothing doing that, and they know that.

You might say that Bush is stupid and that's arguably, but the Israesli are many things but stupid is not one of them.

If Hezbollah is not "hidding" among civilians but it's firing rockets from where civilians are, then it's the exact same thing.

True, Hezbollah uses guerrilla tactics, hit, run and hide, then hit again. The fact they choose areas populated by civilians to launch their attacks tells exactly what they are, the israelis are killing civilians, true, but it's not their aim, civilians are being killed because they are in the middle.

hezbollah on the other hand, wants civilians to be killed, on both sides.

People don't realize, but the stakes are high for Hezbollah, it's not about the casualties. If Hezbollah can't get away with their "exchange" and staying armed and occupying the south of Lebanon, then it will be a failure, it will become evident they caused all that suffering for nothing. Hezbollah has support because they are considered smart, and well prepared, if they miscalculated this one they might be done, and Israel, having gone this far won't stop.

They also know they can't fight the israeli army for too long. Against the US, the perspective of many casualties could influence what the army does, in the israeli's case, they will take the losses, they are fighting for their survival. Guerrillas can be effective for a while, but they can't fight an organized army indefinitely, not if the loss of lives cannot be used as a weapon.

And it's only a matter of time after the Mossad starts to ping point the location of the Hezbollah's leaders and the drones start firing at them (and remember Israel considers the parliament members as terrorists as well).
So Hezbollah needs Israel out of Lebanon soon, the more lebanese blood, the better for them, they will try to do whatever they can to force Israel to kill civilians.

A final comments, I don't need a proof for everything, if that was the case I could not believe 90% of what I know.

I could say I have been to Mars yesterday, you KNOW it's not true but can you prove it?

Volcana
Jul 31st, 2006, 05:17 AM
If Hezbollah is not "hidding" among civilians but it's firing rockets from where civilians are, then it's the exact same thing.However, acording to the article, firing from where civilians are, is exactly NOT what they are doing. Recall those four dead UN observers. No one has yet claimed that Hezbollah was firing rockets from anywhere near them.

True, Hezbollah uses guerrilla tactics, hit, run and hide, then hit again. The fact they choose areas populated by civilians to launch their attacks tells exactly what they are
Hezbollah is firing rockets from within cities and towns because firing from plains and open areas would be suicide. However, being IN a town isn't the same as being near civilians. I am not claiming the IDF is deliberately targetting civilians. (I'm not accepting that they aren't, either.) What I'm sure they ARE doing is removing places where Hezbollah can fire rockets and then run before the Israelis hit them. ie, buildings. But in wartime, civilians hide in buildings.
the israelis are killing civilians, true, but it's not their aim, civilians are being killed because they are in the middle.

hezbollah on the other hand, wants civilians to be killed, on both sides.I see no evidence Hezbollah want Lebanese civilians killed. I see a LOT of evidence they are trying to kill Israeli civilians. However, there is a legitemate arguement that the IDF is defining anyone they think might support Hezbollah as a defensible target. If Hezbollah thinks the same way, and considers anyone who supports the IDF as a legitemate target, by that logic, any Israeli citizen who supports the IDF is a pewrfect OK target.
People don't realize, but the stakes are high for Hezbollah, it's not about the casualties. If Hezbollah can't get away with their "exchange" and staying armed and occupying the south of Lebanon, then it will be a failure, it will become evident they caused all that suffering for nothing. Hezbollah has support because they are considered smart, and well prepared, if they miscalculated this one they might be done, and Israel, having gone this far won't stop.

They also know they can't fight the israeli army for too long. Against the US, the perspective of many casualties could influence what the army does, in the israeli's case, they will take the losses, they are fighting for their survival. Guerrillas can be effective for a while, but they can't fight an organized army indefinitely, not if the loss of lives cannot be used as a weapon.Israel left after 18 years of occupation, and Hezbollah claimed victory. As long as they have ONE soldier fighting, they won't give in. Patience has rewarded them before. Any guerilla army, in Hezbollah's position, would be convinced they could outlast the occupying army.
And it's only a matter of time after the Mossad starts to ping point the location of the Hezbollah's leaders and the drones start firing at them (and remember Israel considers the parliament members as terrorists as well).Hezbollah fighters and Hezbollah politicians might as well be considered two entirely seperate groups. The politicians don't control the fighters.

And excuse me, but Nasrallah pops up every other day to give a speech, then disappears. Maybe Mossad gets him, maybe they don't, but if the fighters avoid mixing with the general population, who rats him out?
So Hezbollah needs Israel out of Lebanon soon, the more lebanese blood, the better for them, they will try to do whatever they can to force Israel to kill civilians.TO me, the facts as established don't support your premise. They thrived under 18 years of Israeli occupation.

And going forward, somebody, the USA via *****, the Russians via *****, the Chinese, the Pakistanis, somebody, will provide Hezbollah with longer range missiles. Any MidEast 'peace-keeping force' is a fig leaf. hezbollah will just shoot over it.

Israel can keep this a shooting war til Al Qaeda (Or a state acting via 'cut out') gets a nuke to a properly motivated psychopath, and Israel can aggressively seek a peaceful solution it's neighbors can live with. There's a lot of nuance, but no real third way.

BTW, how ya bin?