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View Full Version : Which is harder - Clay courters winning Wimbledon, or grass courters winning RG?


ZeroSOFInfinity
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:29 AM
Any ideas? :wavey:

Alicia Rocks
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:30 AM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.

Ferosh
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:31 AM
Clay courters winning Wimbledon.

Hingiswinsthis
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Grass courters winning RG is the tougher assignment...ask Sampras and McEnroe...

and look at the uncrowned 'clay court' queen Martinez beating Navratilova, who would've thunk it.

égalité
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.

JustineTime
Jul 7th, 2006, 05:00 AM
History shows it's clearly the latter.

Brian Stewart
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:09 PM
Well, let's take a quick glance at how winners of one event have done at the other. Although it won't be definitive, it will give a good starting point. Some players have won both, so I've had to declare them either a clay courter or grass courter, regardless of which they won first. I'm doing this "on the fly" with the Media Guide, so I don't know exactly how it will turn out. (And this will basically cover the Open Era, as that will be closer to being relevant than Amateur era stats.)

Wimbledon winners- best RG performance:
S.Williams- W
V.Williams- F
Sharapova- QF
Davenport- SF
Novotna- SF
Hingis- F
Graf- W
Navratilova- W
Martinez- F* (Martinez should probably be classified as a clay courter)
Goolagong- W
Wade- QF
King- W
Court- W
Jones- W
Federer- F
Hewitt- QF
Ivanisevic- QF
Sampras- SF
Krajicek- QF
Agassi- W* (wasn't sure where to put him, as he's not either a grass or clay specialist)
Stich- F
Becker- SF
Edberg- F
Cash- ? missing from guide
McEnroe- F
Connors- SF
Ashe- QF
Smith- QF
Newombe- QF
Laver- W
-----------------------------------
Roland Garros winners- best Wimbledon finish:
Henin-Hardenne- F8 (pending Saturday)
Myskina- QF
Capriati- SF
Pierce- QF
Sanchez-Vicario- F
Majoli- QF
Seles- F
Evert- W
Mandlikova- F* (would classify her as a grass courter-- balances out Martinez on lists)
Ruzici- QF
Jausovec- QF
Barker- SF* (is better classified as a grass courter)
Richey- SF
Nadal- SF (pending Friday and Sunday)
Gaudio- 2r
Ferrero- 4r
Costa- 2r
Kuerten- QF
Moya- 4r
Kafelnikov- QF
Muster- 1r
Bruguera- 4r
Courier- F
Gomez- QF
Chang- QF
Wilander- QF
Lendl- F
Noah- 3r
Borg- W
Vilas- QF
Panatta- QF
Nastase- F*(grass courter?)
Gimeno- ? (not in guide)
Kodes- W
Rosewall- F*(grass courter)
------------------

No time to delve into anything now, but this should make a decent starting point. Feel free to analyze and discuss.

forever_rafter
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:11 PM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.

Agree

Dexter
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:13 PM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.exactly... look at Roger (ATP I know, but still...)

LUXXXAS
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:51 PM
grass courters winning RG!
Pete :rolleyes:
Lindsay :rolleyes:
Venus :rolleyes:
Roger :eek: but he was close and will win some days :)

Il Primo!
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:53 PM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.

Obviously ;)

Il Primo!
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Well, let's take a quick glance at how winners of one event have done at the other. Although it won't be definitive, it will give a good starting point. Some players have won both, so I've had to declare them either a clay courter or grass courter, regardless of which they won first. I'm doing this "on the fly" with the Media Guide, so I don't know exactly how it will turn out. (And this will basically cover the Open Era, as that will be closer to being relevant than Amateur era stats.)

Wimbledon winners- best RG performance:
S.Williams- W
V.Williams- F
Sharapova- QF
Davenport- SF
Novotna- SF
Hingis- F
Graf- W
Navratilova- W
Martinez- F* (Martinez should probably be classified as a clay courter)
Goolagong- W
Wade- QF
King- W
Court- W
Jones- W
Federer- F
Hewitt- QF
Ivanisevic- QF
Sampras- SF
Krajicek- QF
Agassi- W* (wasn't sure where to put him, as he's not either a grass or clay specialist)
Stich- F
Becker- SF
Edberg- F
Cash- ? missing from guide
McEnroe- F
Connors- SF
Ashe- QF
Smith- QF
Newombe- QF
Laver- W
-----------------------------------
Roland Garros winners- best Wimbledon finish:
Henin-Hardenne- F8 (pending Saturday)
Myskina- QF
Capriati- SF
Pierce- QF
Sanchez-Vicario- F
Majoli- QF
Seles- F
Evert- W
Mandlikova- F* (would classify her as a grass courter-- balances out Martinez on lists)
Ruzici- QF
Jausovec- QF
Barker- SF* (is better classified as a grass courter)
Richey- SF
Nadal- SF (pending Friday and Sunday)
Gaudio- 2r
Ferrero- 4r
Costa- 2r
Kuerten- QF
Moya- 4r
Kafelnikov- QF
Muster- 1r
Bruguera- 4r
Courier- F
Gomez- QF
Chang- QF
Wilander- QF
Lendl- F
Noah- 3r
Borg- W
Vilas- QF
Panatta- QF
Nastase- F*(grass courter?)
Gimeno- ? (not in guide)
Kodes- W
Rosewall- F*(grass courter)
------------------

No time to delve into anything now, but this should make a decent starting point. Feel free to analyze and discuss.


Serena Williams won RG then won Wimby! So she's a clay couter winning Wimbledon

tommystar
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Many clay courter don't enter Wimby at all on the men's side (remember Bruguera, Muster, Kuerten, Corretja...)

Kunal
Jul 7th, 2006, 12:59 PM
thats a tough one...on top of my head o think of players like muster, brugera, gaudio, chang, nadal, and they have never won wimbeldon

cant think of that many players on the other side....i mean theres sampras and federer. but federer will win an rg soon

i cant think of women...in that regard....women dont seem to have a big problem conquering both the surfaces.....henin has a point to prove tommorow.

tommystar
Jul 7th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Brian!

Cash' best RG-result is 4th Round in 88, same for Gimeno at Wimby in 69.

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 01:39 PM
both are tough, but I think grasscourters have a better chance since they tend to be better overall athletes given the speed required and there is a longer clay court season to work into clay form.

Talula
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:03 PM
You can guess who will answer this which way - fans of players who have predominantly had success on clay - Justine and Monica - will say it is MUCH harder for the GCs to win RG!

But Kunal is right, there have been some crap winners of the French who are now obsolete/long forgotten. A lot of the mens winners were one trick ponies: Guga, Bruguera et al. Seles was rubbish on grass as was/is Pierce/Majoli and on and on.

To win on grass you have to be a total all round tennis player. There's no comparison.

hwanmig
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Grasscourters winning RG.

hwanmig
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:12 PM
But Kunal is right, there have been some crap winners of the French who are now obsolete/long forgotten. A lot of the mens winners were one trick ponies: Guga, Bruguera et al. Seles was rubbish on grass as was/is Pierce/Majoli and on and on.

To win on grass you have to be a total all round tennis player. There's no comparison.

Right! :rolleyes:like serving ace after ace and not work for a point.

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:18 PM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.


Why? :shrug:

MH0861
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:21 PM
I thought clay courters winning Wimbledon on first impression... particularly on the ATP tour, there are so many players who do so poorly there/don't even play. Though, Nadal is dispelling this now. :lol:

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:24 PM
both are tough, but I think grasscourters have a better chance since they tend to be better overall athletes given the speed required and there is a longer clay court season to work into clay form.

:haha: :haha:

Now this has got to be one of the funniest and most pathetic posts you've ever written and that's saying something, because you've written some crap before, but this takes the biscuit! :rolleyes:

MH0861
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Well, let's take a quick glance at how winners of one event have done at the other. Although it won't be definitive, it will give a good starting point. Some players have won both, so I've had to declare them either a clay courter or grass courter, regardless of which they won first. I'm doing this "on the fly" with the Media Guide, so I don't know exactly how it will turn out. (And this will basically cover the Open Era, as that will be closer to being relevant than Amateur era stats.)

Wimbledon winners- best RG performance:
S.Williams- W
V.Williams- F
Sharapova- QF
Davenport- SF
Novotna- SF
Hingis- F
Graf- W
Navratilova- W
Martinez- F* (Martinez should probably be classified as a clay courter)
Goolagong- W
Wade- QF
King- W
Court- W
Jones- W
Federer- F
Hewitt- QF
Ivanisevic- QF
Sampras- SF
Krajicek- QF
Agassi- W* (wasn't sure where to put him, as he's not either a grass or clay specialist)
Stich- F
Becker- SF
Edberg- F
Cash- ? missing from guide
McEnroe- F
Connors- SF
Ashe- QF
Smith- QF
Newombe- QF
Laver- W
-----------------------------------
Roland Garros winners- best Wimbledon finish:
Henin-Hardenne- F8 (pending Saturday)
Myskina- QF
Capriati- SF
Pierce- QF
Sanchez-Vicario- F
Majoli- QF
Seles- F
Evert- W
Mandlikova- F* (would classify her as a grass courter-- balances out Martinez on lists)
Ruzici- QF
Jausovec- QF
Barker- SF* (is better classified as a grass courter)
Richey- SF
Nadal- SF (pending Friday and Sunday)
Gaudio- 2r
Ferrero- 4r
Costa- 2r
Kuerten- QF
Moya- 4r
Kafelnikov- QF
Muster- 1r
Bruguera- 4r
Courier- F
Gomez- QF
Chang- QF
Wilander- QF
Lendl- F
Noah- 3r
Borg- W
Vilas- QF
Panatta- QF
Nastase- F*(grass courter?)
Gimeno- ? (not in guide)
Kodes- W
Rosewall- F*(grass courter)
------------------

No time to delve into anything now, but this should make a decent starting point. Feel free to analyze and discuss.

Thanks for this research. :worship:

Taking a look at it, every grass courter has atleast made the QFs at Roland Garros -- but there are quite a few RG winners who have not made the QFs at Wimbledon. And there's 9 grass courters who have won RG, while only 3 clay courters have won Wimbledon.

MH0861
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:29 PM
both are tough, but I think grasscourters have a better chance since they tend to be better overall athletes given the speed required and there is a longer clay court season to work into clay form.

I don't follow your logic... clay courters are grinders out there and have to work muuuuuuuch harder for every point.

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:30 PM
I don't follow your logic... clay courters are grinders out there and have to work muuuuuuuch harder for every point.

Come on MH0861 ... we know vwfan is only saying this because Venus has won Wimbledon but can't win RG! So of course they're going to say that. Proof is in the facts though and from the posts above, looks like we are getting nearer the facts :)

And of course remember that vwfan doesn't know anything about tennis except the name "Venus" :lol:

AnywhereButHome
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM
Grass courters winning Roland Garros.

Agree

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:44 PM
Agree

Why? Could you explain why i.e. the technicality etc?

Thanks :devil:

Talula
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:45 PM
Right! :rolleyes:like serving ace after ace and not work for a point.
That is NOT how Federer or the Williams' or anyone for that matter has won Wimbledon. :rolleyes: Watch the finals. But look at the baseline slug fests at RG. That's not 'working' for a point but simply out slugging the opponent. Which is why Pansy Kuerten and others were scared to come to Wimbledon, and why Seles and Pierce didn't stand a chance and never won it. Now look at all the real legends: they were all able to take both clay and grass, unlike the RG one hit wonders/one trick ponies.

spencercarlos
Jul 7th, 2006, 02:52 PM
both are tough, but I think grasscourters have a better chance since they tend to be better overall athletes given the speed required and there is a longer clay court season to work into clay form.
what ? :retard:
The grass court players find it frustrating to play at Roland Garros because the surface demands the power player to produce extra winning shots, plus clay demands phisically demands and take more out of you, because you have to play longer points. Donīt come here and Wimbledon is a more demanding surface phisically, when shorter points are played and the biggest reward goes to the agressive player. :rolleyes:

And to be honest, no matter what ridiculous and out of base arguments you can give, for a third time i tell you NO Venus is not closer to a Roland Garros than Justine Henin is to a Wimbledon title.
:wavey:

spencercarlos
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:03 PM
That is NOT how Federer or the Williams' or anyone for that matter has won Wimbledon. :rolleyes: Watch the finals. But look at the baseline slug fests at RG. That's not 'working' for a point but simply out slugging the opponent. Which is why Pansy Kuerten and others were scared to come to Wimbledon, and why Seles and Pierce didn't stand a chance and never won it. Now look at all the real legends: they were all able to take both clay and grass, unlike the RG one hit wonders/one trick ponies.
Seles and Pierce had their best showings at Roland Garros when they were phisically at their peak.
Pierce 2000 was on her best shape of her life. She won it.
Seles after the stabbing was never the same, but have to remark that in 1998 when she got so thin and so much in shape (she looked a lot like her early yearīs physical shape), she reached finals.

Their sucess at Wimbledon have a lot to do with their games, neither Monica and Mary are big servers, they developed that weapon late in their carreers, but despite that Selesīs and Mary lack of game to suceed on grass like finish points off at the net, not the best movers when following to the net, is what pretty much held them off, and exposed them.

Talula
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Seles and Pierce had their best showings at Roland Garros when they were phisically at their peak.
Pierce 2000 was on her best shape of her life. She won it.
Seles after the stabbing was never the same, but have to remark that in 1998 when she got so thin and so much in shape (she looked a lot like her early yearīs physical shape), she reached finals.

Their sucess at Wimbledon have a lot to do with their games, neither Monica and Mary are big servers, they developed that weapon late in their carreers, but despite that Selesīs and Mary lack of game to suceed on grass like finish points off at the net, not the best movers when following to the net, is what pretty much held them off, and exposed them.
Yes, which sounds like we agree to me! ;)

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:48 PM
:haha: :haha:

Now this has got to be one of the funniest and most pathetic posts you've ever written and that's saying something, because you've written some crap before, but this takes the biscuit! :rolleyes:what are complaining about?

I said it is easier for grasscourt players to convert to clay rather than the other way around.

That means JustineFan that: Justine's accomplishment would have been more difficult if she wins Wimbledon than if Venus wins RG. Even when I'm giving Justine props, you're still complaining. :rolleyes:

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:54 PM
I don't follow your logic... clay courters are grinders out there and have to work muuuuuuuch harder for every point.I agree.

I am saying that grasscourt players have to have phenomenal serves, hit hard, and be extra fast movers on court since the points are quicker and these days balls are hit fast and hard. There is much less time for tennis finesse and points construction--athleticism is rewarded on grass more than it is on clay. But it doesn't mean that athleticism is unimportant for clay, just more important on grass.

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:56 PM
Come on MH0861 ... we know vwfan is only saying this because Venus has won Wimbledon but can't win RG! So of course they're going to say that. Proof is in the facts though and from the posts above, looks like we are getting nearer the facts :)

And of course remember that vwfan doesn't know anything about tennis except the name "Venus" :lol:stop stalking me. . .

Aaron.
Jul 7th, 2006, 03:59 PM
:lol:

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:00 PM
stop stalking me. . .

Now who's getting in a tizzy, cuz it's not me! :haha:

Aaron.
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:03 PM
What is it with you Justine_fan? :smash: :shrug: :retard: :rolleyes:

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Now who's getting in a tizzy, cuz it's not me! :haha:ok. i'm in a tizzy. better now. :o

so, you can stop going into every thread to specifically respond to my posts. much less work for you that way.

Mightymirza
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Grass courters winning RG..Its just harddd for them..

Justine Fan
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:07 PM
ok. i'm in a tizzy. better now. :o

so, you can stop going into every thread to specifically respond to my posts. much less work for you that way.

It's all a game and I like winning :devil:

Now go and play with your blow up Venus. :wavey:

I'm going out ... I have a life! C ya! :)

spencercarlos
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
I agree.

I am saying that grasscourt players have to have phenomenal serves, hit hard, and be extra fast movers on court since the points are quicker and these days balls are hit fast and hard. There is much less time for tennis finesse and points construction--athleticism is rewarded on grass more than it is on clay. But it doesn't mean that athleticism is unimportant for clay, just more important on grass.
:lol:
You just donīt give up huh? Silly...
Finesse, points construction= move your butt for the points, defend more, and hit more winning shots, employ you athletic conditions often times to the limit, endure long matches, all of that is related to the athletic part of the player..

Grass= itīs mostly bang, its over, next point.

I thought you knew at least the basics of tennis and the main differences between surfaces. Oh well
:wavey:

Aaron.
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
I'm going out ... I have a life! C ya! :) oh Really :lol: :smash:

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:16 PM
What is it with you Justine_fan? :smash: :shrug: :retard: :rolleyes:I know, right. Clearly, I am just bored to death today when I start responding to JF posts and starting threads just to annoy JF and SC. :o

SAEKeithSerena
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:17 PM
grass courters winning RG. look at venus williams, davenport, sharapova

vwfan
Jul 7th, 2006, 04:17 PM
oh Really :lol: :smash: you're just wrong, but thanks for joining in the fun for a bit. me, and my inflatable venus are leaving this thread! :haha:

Brian Stewart
Jul 9th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Now updated with extra protein: :)
(And results from Friday and Saturday, and Tommystar's info. Had to add another entry. :) )

Wimbledon winners- best RG performance:
Mauresmo- QF
S.Williams- W
V.Williams- F
Sharapova- QF
Davenport- SF
Novotna- SF
Hingis- F
Graf- W
Navratilova- W
Martinez- F* (Martinez should probably be classified as a clay courter)
Goolagong- W
Wade- QF
King- W
Court- W
Jones- W
Federer- F
Hewitt- QF
Ivanisevic- QF
Sampras- SF
Krajicek- QF
Agassi- W* (wasn't sure where to put him, as he's not either a grass or clay specialist)
Stich- F
Becker- SF
Edberg- F
Cash- 4r
McEnroe- F
Connors- SF
Ashe- QF
Smith- QF
Newcombe- QF
Laver- W
-----------------------------------
Roland Garros winners- best Wimbledon finish:
Henin-Hardenne- F
Myskina- QF
Capriati- SF
Pierce- QF
Sanchez-Vicario- F
Majoli- QF
Seles- F
Evert- W
Mandlikova- F* (would classify her as a grass courter-- balances out Martinez on lists)
Ruzici- QF
Jausovec- QF
Barker- SF* (is better classified as a grass courter)
Richey- SF
Nadal- F (pending Sunday)
Gaudio- 2r
Ferrero- 4r
Costa- 2r
Kuerten- QF
Moya- 4r
Kafelnikov- QF
Muster- 1r
Bruguera- 4r
Courier- F
Gomez- QF
Chang- QF
Wilander- QF
Lendl- F
Noah- 3r
Borg- W
Vilas- QF
Panatta- QF
Nastase- F*(grass courter?)
Gimeno- 4r
Kodes- W
Rosewall- F*(grass courter)
------------------

I didn't have time to analyze when I typed it, but as someone pointed out, it seems the Wimbledon winners (except Cash) all made it to at least the quarters of the French. This would seem to suggest that a specialized grass court game fares better on clay than a specialized clay court game does on grass. Several players won both, including Serena, Graf, Navratilova, Evert, King, Goolagong, Court, Jones, Agassi, Laver, and Borg. I think most will agree that of this group, only Borg and Evert would be classified as "clay" players, whereas the others would have to be considered players whose games were better suited for grass (even though Court won more RG than Wimbledon titles). Agassi is a tough one to pin down, as the only one on the list who couldn't be classified as truly leaning toward one or the other.

It might be interesing to compile a similar list for those who finished runner up at either event, but didn't win, and compare it to the winners' list. Does having that bit extra required to actually win on one surface help or hurt your chances on the other?

chris whiteside
Jul 9th, 2006, 11:39 AM
Before the current era I would have said it was pretty even when you see greats like McEnroe, Sampras, Edberg couldn't win RG while many of those who won the French couldn't cope with Wimby.

But now, I don't think there's any doubt it's grasscourters winning RG because of the way they've messed with the courts at Wimbledon and slowed them down. Most of the men players are now winning their matches on the grass from the baseline.

Josh.
Jul 9th, 2006, 12:10 PM
grass peoples winning roland garros. these days you only have to serve and volley a little and you can make the 4th round and further at wimbledon.