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Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:55 AM
Today I found out that my gf (well kind of) is pregnant. What do I do? I am going to stand by her, but shes only 17 and I'm only 18. I dont even like her that much, it was more of a sex thing and now this has happened. Just when life was at its best too. I'm fucked..

rebel_ffighter
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:04 AM
that is why safe sex is essential,and for Aids of course

arn
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:08 AM
that is why safe sex is essential,and for Aids of course

That advice is not really going to help now, is it? :rolleyes:

First, good decision to stand by her side :yeah:

If you feel this way, have you talked about the possibility of abortion? The most important thing to do right now is to talk about your futures and the future of the baby in case you decide to keep the baby. How does she feel about it?

matthias
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:13 AM
you need to involve your family and her family
i think when poeple get babys in this age they need a good family behind with a lot of support, and then all could turn out fine

VeeDaQueen
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:15 AM
please don't go to abortion :) it is murder, and VERY cruel

Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:15 AM
That advice is not really going to help now, is it? :rolleyes:

First, good decision to stand by her side :yeah:

If you feel this way, have you talked about the possibility of abortion? The most important thing to do right now is to talk about your futures and the future of the baby in case you decide to keep the baby. How does she feel about it?

Shes really freaked out. Our parents don't know atm. I kind of want her to have an abortion, but I'm not going to make that decision for her. Her parents are hard out like 'god squad' and they would not want her to have an abortion. We can not just go and do it because her with her being 17, her parents need to sign the forms and shit.

btw, we were safe, so I dont know what happened. This may sound really shallow, but the baby may not be mine, shes quite a popular girl (if you know what I mean) so....I want to have some kind of test done. But I cant just ask her now can I?!

rebel_ffighter
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:21 AM
That advice is not really going to help now, is it? :rolleyes:

First, good decision to stand by her side :yeah:

If you feel this way, have you talked about the possibility of abortion? The most important thing to do right now is to talk about your futures and the future of the baby in case you decide to keep the baby. How does she feel about it?

It isnt but it is insane nowadays to not know that unprotected sex can have such results!...and especially since he says it was ony "a sex thing"

There isnt much you can do...Either she will keep the baby and you will be next to her (or not) or she will have an abortion.But please dont marry her or anything since u dont want her,it would ruin the lives both of you

rebel_ffighter
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:23 AM
btw, we were safe, so I dont know what happened. This may sound really shallow, but the baby may not be mine, shes quite a popular girl (if you know what I mean) so....I want to have some kind of test done. But I cant just ask her now can I?!

The possibility then of being ur baby are minor...I think she might not be sincere to you and she uses you.Find out before you do anything

jenny161185
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:24 AM
same thing happened to my friend recently - I feel for you, maybe talk about your options with her?

myxomatosis
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:25 AM
btw, we were safe, so I dont know what happened. This may sound really shallow, but the baby may not be mine, shes quite a popular girl (if you know what I mean) so....I want to have some kind of test done. But I cant just ask her now can I?!I would make sure tests are done (and I'm a girl). If the baby is yours then you are doing the right thing in taking responsibility for it. But if it's not, then it is not your responsibility in any way.

Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:28 AM
I'm so mixed up right now! Does anyone know how long it takes before some sort of test can be done?

Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:31 AM
I was safe, and she told me she was on the pill. I did ask her (when she told me) if it was mine. And she just started crying and saying stuff like 'do you think I'm just some cheap slut or somthing?'...I felt so bad. How can I ask her now?

matthias
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:33 AM
if she is really such a "popular girl" she should understand why you want a test

myxomatosis
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:36 AM
If you were using condoms plus she was on the pill, then the chances of it being your baby are slim to nil.
If you suspect it's not your child, you should be pushing for a paternity test, regardless of how bad she makes you feel about it. Just make sure she realises that if it is your baby, you will be there for her and for the child.

manu
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:39 AM
Hey Bakers Boy,

This must be so hard for the both of you... I can imagine that you're getting all kinds of advises from many different people right now, so I hope you can find a way to filter that into something that's useful for you... If I might give you my advise (feel free to listen to it or not, I really have no ambition at all to sound like a know-it-all here, on the contrary as I don't have any experience with this, but anyway): I think the most important thing right now is to find out whether you both want the baby and are prepared to commit yourselves to this (which is HUGE, probably the biggest commitment and responsability in a human being's life, but it's also worth SO much I think, to be able to raise a child!). Do you both REALLY want to do this? I think that's the biggest question right now. The organizing part comes later. Talking (to her and both your families) is what would seem very useful right now in my humble (unexperienced) opinion. What's also really important is of course to be totally sure that the baby is yours, but I don't know if this is the appropriate time to find that out... I also think it's absolutely GREAT that you've decided to stand by her side! :yeah: :worship: That takes LOADS of courage!

Wish you the very best, this 'll be a tough time, but you'll pull trough!

Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:39 AM
I know, but its alot harded than it sounds! Thanks for the advice tho..........

danra
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:39 AM
you can get a test done at around 8 weeks - but only during a 3 week window - it's generally considered too risky after that. and it costs quite a bit - about £700 in the UK. no idea how much elsewhere.

you should both talk to something like Marie Stopes clinic to discuss your options:
http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/ww/index.htm
It's worldwide but if not near you google a similar type thing.

Good luck either way.

Mana
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:47 AM
you can get a test done at around 8 weeks - but only during a 3 week window - it's generally considered too risky after that. and it costs quite a bit - about £700 in the UK. no idea how much elsewhere.

you should both talk to something like Marie Stopes clinic to discuss your options:
http://www.mariestopes.org.uk/ww/index.htm
It's worldwide but if not near you google a similar type thing.

Good luck either way.

:wavey: Thanks!

Mother_Marjorie
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:55 AM
If you were using condoms plus she was on the pill, then the chances of it being your baby are slim to nil.
If you suspect it's not your child, you should be pushing for a paternity test, regardless of how bad she makes you feel about it. Just make sure she realises that if it is your baby, you will be there for her and for the child.

Exactly. And thanks for giving that advice.

Because you both are so young, it would be advisable to include your parents in any decision you both make. There are many options available, including adoption, abortion and keeping the child, all of which are a personal decision and should be made in consultation with the parents involved.

Just because you are both so young doesn't mean that your life is ruined because of the birth of a child. It may make it a little tougher initially to achieve goals you've set forth in life, but all of those goals are still attainable as long as you have faith and motivation. Chances are that if she is pregnant and you choose to keep the baby, you'll have tons of help from the grandparents and people close to you. :yeah:

Keep your head up! (well, you know what I mean)

Alicia Rocks
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:36 AM
Bakers Boy :eek: :sad:
That just sucks :sad:

SpikeyAidanm
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:38 AM
It'll be hard but you and her will become better persons after it.

FedExpress
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:04 PM
I think the hard thing is sometimes also the best thing. You have to stay with her a while until you find a better way. It must be really hard for you both :(

!<blocparty>!
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Who's is it? :D

CanadianBoy21
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:07 PM
ur so young.
I dealt with sexual identity, but this is about bringing another being into life and taking care of it.

First, make sure the baby is yours. As someone said already, if u two used condom and pill then it should be a slim chance of it being yours. A VERY slim chance.

CanadianBoy21
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:08 PM
Who's is it? :D

This is a serious issue, and I'm sorry, but that was :lol:
:o

Dahveed
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:32 PM
First of all, you should make sure the baby is really yours.

Then you can think about what to do.

Kaiwhakahare
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:36 PM
Theres a few clinics up in Otara which can sort problems like this out lol! :P

mc8114
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Well, what's done is done, so now both of you have to talk about the next step, how you feel, what you want and once you figure that out, i think you should probably turn to your parents. At leats in my case most of the time (like 90 %) they parents know best.

Mattographer
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:55 PM
That's what happened to my friend too and he was 19. He decided to stand by her side, however, later she left him without acknowledge him that her baby is OK. He hasn't heard from her since then. I know that's a negative things but I just want to say it :o

cellophane
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Days I'm grateful I'm not straight. :o Baker's Boy - I hope everything works out. :hug:

CondiLicious
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Are you sure she's really pregnant? Girls use the "I'm pregnant" line sometimes when things aren't going right and they feel like trapping some poor guy.

I'm glad there's no danger of me getting pregnant ever.

fifiricci
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:49 PM
It's a massive mistake to stay together for the sake of the baby. Trust me, I know this from bitter experience. You might think it is the "noble" or "right" thing to do, but it can often end badly and just put your life on hold for some years.

Can you talk to an adult in confidence, maybe a counsellor who can give you sound and impartial advice about your options? I would if I were you, if that kind of service is available where you are.

hdfb
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:50 PM
If they really are "god squad", then they will not brush the baby away. I am sure they will get really really mad at you, but if they are true Christians, they won't disown either of you, or ignore your child or not support you two or anything like that.

Sam L
Jun 20th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Two of my friends started their family when they were both 21. You're only a few years younger so it's not the end of your life.

Make sure you continue your education or your work and you'll be fine.

"Sluggy"
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:02 PM
wow, keep us informed. try to focus on the positive. You're not the only one who has been confronted with these issues at that age, so dont sweat it too much.

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Shes really freaked out. Our parents don't know atm. I kind of want her to have an abortion, but I'm not going to make that decision for her. Her parents are hard out like 'god squad' and they would not want her to have an abortion. We can not just go and do it because her with her being 17, her parents need to sign the forms and shit.

btw, we were safe, so I dont know what happened. This may sound really shallow, but the baby may not be mine, shes quite a popular girl (if you know what I mean) so....I want to have some kind of test done. But I cant just ask her now can I?!
wait wait,

if you are 100% sure that you used a condom. than i would DEFINITELY ask for proof that they baby is yours, because if you used a condom there is something like a plus 90% chance she should not have gotten pregnant. and if she says she is, and if she is "popular", i would say there is a 90% chance its not yours.

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:12 PM
also, i forgot to add.

i am a lesbian, but i am on the pill for health reasons. its like this if she is not on her shit, and she misses a day or two she can still get pregnant. but if you are careful this really is something should not happen.

also this is thing. in the US if you start caring for the child as it is yours, and you later find out it is, you WILL still be held responsible.

honestly, i would make it clear to both her and her parents, and yours that you are very doubtful that they child is yours. and you should be clearly that you are not going to accept any parental responsibilities until you have medical proof that you are indeed the father.

yeah her feelings will be hurt. but you need to ask yourself which is better her feelings or the lives of three people, yours, the baby's (if it is kept), and of course your own life.

harloo
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:22 PM
Today I found out that my gf (well kind of) is pregnant. What do I do? I am going to stand by her, but shes only 17 and I'm only 18. I dont even like her that much, it was more of a sex thing and now this has happened. Just when life was at its best too. I'm fucked..

Considering that you have doubts that the baby is yours please have your parents request a paternity test before signing the birth certificate. I know maybe you don't wan't to insult the girl by asking for one but if your parents request one it would be seen as normal procedure. You wan't to make sure that you are the father.

It's not time to start being scared now. You have a baby coming (if proved to be yours) into this world so snap out of the pity party. Have a talk with both families and figure out how you are your girlfriend are going to support this child. Hopefullly you have a supportive family so you can continue your education because you will need it later on in life.

Good luck!! Dont' be afraid. One of my boys was in a similiar situation and he's fine now. He is more responsible since he has a little boy. He thought the whole situation was the end of the world for him at the time but now he's doing quite well. :D

Craigy
Jun 20th, 2006, 03:26 PM
Ohhh. I feel really bad for you. I hope everything turns out ok for you! :awww:

Conchi Party
Jun 20th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Yikes! Unfortunately your parents need to be involved at your age, especially as abortion is a definite option. It is primarily her decision, but there is nothing wrong with going down this path, or keeping the child for that matter. Paternity tests may have to wait until after the birth due to costs.

I'm sorry to hear about you circumstance, and if you used a condom and she was really on the pill, the chances are extremely low that you are the father.

LoveFifteen
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:11 PM
another option that no one has mentioned is adoption. a lot of us have made sexual "mistakes". i feel for you. hope everything works out for the best. :hug:

Derek.
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Who be yo baby mama? :confused:

I hope you figure out this situation, it's not as bad as it seems. Good luck! :hug:

ClaudiaZ-S
Jun 20th, 2006, 05:36 PM
another option that no one has mentioned is adoption. a lot of us have made sexual "mistakes". i feel for you. hope everything works out for the best. :hug:


sexual "mistakes" :confused:

I'm sure you'll be a good father :kiss: :)

slk45
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Yikes! Unfortunately your parents need to be involved at your age, especially as abortion is a definite option. It is primarily her decision, but there is nothing wrong with going down this path, or keeping the child for that matter. Paternity tests may have to wait until after the birth due to costs.

I'm sorry to hear about you circumstance, and if you used a condom and she was really on the pill, the chances are extremely low that you are the father.Have to disagree with virtually everything expressed here, and you have summed up so much of the previous discussion.

Abortion is not a legitimate option. It is taking an innocent human life, which is the definition of murder. In addition to which, you will inflict life-long emotional pain on your gf. Whether you like her "that much" or not, that's not something you should do to her. There are no "safe" abortions.

So-called safe sex is a myth. 10-15% failure rate for condoms, up to 10% failure for the pill. Neither will protect against aids or numerous STDs. This stuff is promoted because it guarantees a stream of clientele for abortion clinics.

What does it say that you are having sex with her but you "don't like her that much"? That means you are using her -- and it may have been mutual, but that doesn't change it. That means you view her as a "thing," not as a person.

Adoption is your only genuine option. Respect for this girl and for the human being developing inside her demands this. Thousands of families are desperate for children, and the child has a right to a family with a mother and father.

You are experiencing the consequences of sex based on selfishness. Your life is not over: you now have a chance to grow up and accept responsibility for your "decisions." If that sounds harsh, you need to take to heart the idea that "the truth will set you free." The modern cultural ideal of free sex leads to bondage, not freedom. God is giving you an opportunity to love.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Have to disagree with virtually everything expressed here, and you have summed up so much of the previous discussion.

Abortion is not a legitimate option. It is taking an innocent human life, which is the definition of murder. In addition to which, you will inflict life-long emotional pain on your gf. Whether you like her "that much" or not, that's not something you should do to her. There are no "safe" abortions.

So-called safe sex is a myth. 10-15% failure rate for condoms, up to 10% failure for the pill. Neither will protect against aids or numerous STDs. This stuff is promoted because it guarantees a stream of clientele for abortion clinics.

What does it say that you are having sex with her but you "don't like her that much"? That means you are using her -- and it may have been mutual, but that doesn't change it. That means you view her as a "thing," not as a person.

Adoption is your only genuine option. Respect for this girl and for the human being developing inside her demands this. Thousands of families are desperate for children, and the child has a right to a family with a mother and father.

You are experiencing the consequences of sex based on selfishness. Your life is not over: you now have a chance to grow up and accept responsibility for your "decisions." If that sounds harsh, you need to take to heart the idea that "the truth will set you free." The modern cultural ideal of free sex leads to bondage, not freedom. God is giving you an opportunity to love.
:worship: :worship: :worship: Ultimately, at the root of his initial problem was an act of selfishnes. It did not create a situation that would, by many, be termed "good." Abortion will be an even graver act of selfishness---from which nothing good can come.

UDACHi
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:40 PM
You're life isn't over! :awww: :hug:

Definitely request her to make sure that you're the father before you go any further with the situation.

hablo
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Have to disagree with virtually everything expressed here, and you have summed up so much of the previous discussion.

Abortion is not a legitimate option. It is taking an innocent human life, which is the definition of murder. In addition to which, you will inflict life-long emotional pain on your gf. Whether you like her "that much" or not, that's not something you should do to her. There are no "safe" abortions.

So-called safe sex is a myth. 10-15% failure rate for condoms, up to 10% failure for the pill. Neither will protect against aids or numerous STDs. This stuff is promoted because it guarantees a stream of clientele for abortion clinics.

What does it say that you are having sex with her but you "don't like her that much"? That means you are using her -- and it may have been mutual, but that doesn't change it. That means you view her as a "thing," not as a person.

Adoption is your only genuine option. Respect for this girl and for the human being developing inside her demands this. Thousands of families are desperate for children, and the child has a right to a family with a mother and father.

You are experiencing the consequences of sex based on selfishness. Your life is not over: you now have a chance to grow up and accept responsibility for your "decisions." If that sounds harsh, you need to take to heart the idea that "the truth will set you free." The modern cultural ideal of free sex leads to bondage, not freedom. God is giving you an opportunity to love.wrong.

there are many options with regards to pregnancy and what is wrong for one individual (like yourself) may not be for another ....

but yes, just because he used a condom and she used the pill doesn't mean that pregnancy couldn't occur (the condom could have been defective in the first place -it's possible ;) - or it could have broken during intercourse ; the girl could have forgotten to take the pill one day or have taken some medication which nullified the effects of the pill,etc....... )

and yes, maybe the girl had more than one partner, so who knows, the kid maybe isn't his ... there are always two sides to a story though...

good luck to the poster and his pregnant girlfriend.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:53 PM
wrong.

there are many options with regards to pregnancy and what is wrong for one individual (like yourself) may not be for another ....

but yes, just because he used a condom and she used the pill doesn't mean that pregnancy couldn't occur (the condom could have been defective in the first place -it's possible ;) - or it could have broken during intercourse ; the girl could have forgotten to take the pill one day or have taken some medication which nullified the effects of the pill,etc....... )

and yes, maybe the girl had more than one partner, so who knows, the kid maybe isn't his ... there are always two sides to a story though...

good luck to the poster and his pregnant girlfriend.

I think that murder is objectively wrong.

hablo
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:56 PM
I think that murder is objectively wrong.
:yawn:

partbrit
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:04 PM
If she decides that abortion is not right for her, do strongly consider giving the baby up for adoption. Pardon my generalizing, but 17- and 18-year-olds do not generally have the maturity to parent a child (neither do many 30-year-olds, I know). I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, but in the U.S., there are mature couples who are desperate to adopt babies. If you keep the baby and marry a girl you don't particularly like, you will miserable and so will the child. If you do not marry her but she is unable to properly care for (and at 17, she is not likely to be able to properly care for) a child, the child will suffer. It is no longer about you and her, but about the child and what is best for her/him. Sometimes extended families take care of babies until their daughters and sons become more mature and self-sufficient, but that is asking a lot.

Good luck to you.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think that partbrit underlined an important thing: What is in the best interest of the baby should be your No.1 priority. (As a side note, I'd doubt the baby would choose death, if it had a choice in all of this).

Kart
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:01 PM
No offence intended to any posters in here - most of whom I have a high opinion of, but this is one of the rare occasions when I despair of this place :rolleyes:.

Only WTAworld would tell an 18 year old lad who's probably petrified about the rest of his life to start thinking about abortion being murder and paternity tests when he's had less than a day to get to terms with life changing news :retard:.

~Bakers Boy~ I'm really sorry to read of your turmoil but you'll clearly only find judgement and internet idiocy here. Perhaps you ought to be looking closer to home for sensible advice from people that know and care about you.

Rocketta
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:25 PM
No offence intended to any posters in here - most of whom I have a high opinion of, but this is one of the rare occasions when I despair of this place :rolleyes:.

Only WTAworld would tell an 18 year old lad who's probably petrified about the rest of his life to start thinking about abortion being murder and paternity tests when he's had less than a day to get to terms with life changing news :retard:.

~Bakers Boy~ I'm really sorry to read of your turmoil but you'll clearly only find judgement and internet idiocy here. Perhaps you ought to be looking closer to home for sensible advice from people that know and care about you.

:hug:

Couver
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Abortion is not a legitimate option. It is taking an innocent human life, which is the definition of murder. In addition to which, you will inflict life-long emotional pain on your gf. Whether you like her "that much" or not, that's not something you should do to her. There are no "safe" abortions.

So-called safe sex is a myth. 10-15% failure rate for condoms, up to 10% failure for the pill. Neither will protect against aids or numerous STDs. This stuff is promoted because it guarantees a stream of clientele for abortion clinics.



If this young woman chooses abortion then it is indeed a legitimate option for her. A woman should have every option available to her in a situation like this and simply because you disagree with aborition does not make it a non-suitable option. Also the idea that she would suffer long term emotional pain is at best a guess. If she is well informed about the decision and chooses it I do not think she would suffer any lasting consquences. I know women who have had abortions and they are not suffering long term emtoional pain.

I do agree about protection though. Nothing but abstinence is full proof. Condoms can tear or rupture easily and if you are simply relying on the pill then you're taking a big risk.

Best of luck. I hope you go through all available options and find a solution that helps both of you.

LefandePatty
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:39 PM
I thought you were gay lol.

James
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I never knew you were 18. I thought you were about 14, but I must have read it wrong somewhere.

I hope you come to terms with this situation. Kart gave good advice. Find someone close to home who you trust, to help you deal with this. And it's really good of you to stand by your girlfriend's side, cause you are in this together.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:59 PM
please don't go to abortion :) it is murder, and VERY cruel
Please don't listen to the self righteous who have zero interest in what is best for you.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:00 PM
If this young woman chooses abortion then it is indeed a legitimate option for her. A woman should have every option available to her in a situation like this and simply because you disagree with aborition does not make it a non-suitable option. Also the idea that she would suffer long term emotional pain is at best a guess. If she is well informed about the decision and chooses it I do not think she would suffer any lasting consquences. I know women who have had abortions and they are not suffering long term emtoional pain.

I do agree about protection though. Nothing but abstinence is full proof. Condoms can tear or rupture easily and if you are simply relying on the pill then you're taking a big risk.

Best of luck. I hope you go through all available options and find a solution that helps both of you.
:worship:

It is my opinion that the self righteous who like to inform everybody what they can and can't do aren't legitimate human beings, but what do I know.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:01 PM
If she decides that abortion is not right for her, do strongly consider giving the baby up for adoption. Pardon my generalizing, but 17- and 18-year-olds do not generally have the maturity to parent a child (neither do many 30-year-olds, I know). I don't know what it's like in New Zealand, but in the U.S., there are mature couples who are desperate to adopt babies. If you keep the baby and marry a girl you don't particularly like, you will miserable and so will the child. If you do not marry her but she is unable to properly care for (and at 17, she is not likely to be able to properly care for) a child, the child will suffer. It is no longer about you and her, but about the child and what is best for her/him. Sometimes extended families take care of babies until their daughters and sons become more mature and self-sufficient, but that is asking a lot.

Good luck to you.
Great post :yeah:

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:25 PM
Have to disagree with virtually everything expressed here, and you have summed up so much of the previous discussion.

Abortion is not a legitimate option. It is taking an innocent human life, which is the definition of murder. In addition to which, you will inflict life-long emotional pain on your gf. Whether you like her "that much" or not, that's not something you should do to her. There are no "safe" abortions.

So-called safe sex is a myth. 10-15% failure rate for condoms, up to 10% failure for the pill. Neither will protect against aids or numerous STDs. This stuff is promoted because it guarantees a stream of clientele for abortion clinics.

What does it say that you are having sex with her but you "don't like her that much"? That means you are using her -- and it may have been mutual, but that doesn't change it. That means you view her as a "thing," not as a person.

Adoption is your only genuine option. Respect for this girl and for the human being developing inside her demands this. Thousands of families are desperate for children, and the child has a right to a family with a mother and father.

You are experiencing the consequences of sex based on selfishness. Your life is not over: you now have a chance to grow up and accept responsibility for your "decisions." If that sounds harsh, you need to take to heart the idea that "the truth will set you free." The modern cultural ideal of free sex leads to bondage, not freedom. God is giving you an opportunity to love.

oh my god this post is filled with some lies...

i am birth control, as i said earlier and the "failure" rate is 2-3% if taken properly. the failure rate of condoms is 2% with correct use. if she was using the pill correctly, and the condom was used correctly there should only be a 1%. my vote is she is being dishonest about his paternity and/or her use of the pill.

if you are not white and or if that child is born with any sort of birth defects adoption is a joke because its really not likely to happen, and really putting that child in the hands of the state. and in the usa, that is a life sentence. the foster care system is the usa is more a place of abuse and neglect than a place a love and goodness. many people do it for the money and treat the kids like crap. and if they dont the system certainly does.

anyway, your numbers are straight up lies (not to mention the flat out lie about condom companies being in league with abortion clinics) . sorry.

i disagree with your view on abortion, but thats your view.

p.s. i have noticed that a number of people have suggested not to have an abortion, which is their right, but none have offered homes. what i am saying is this. if you decide to have this baby please, please, please make sure you have a home where people will be able to meet all of that child's needs for the next 18 years (regardless of medical health), BEFORE you have the baby. i think its REALLY unfair to bring a child into this world without a stable home for him/her.

TdF_DBLL
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:30 PM
No offence intended to any posters in here - most of whom I have a high opinion of, but this is one of the rare occasions when I despair of this place :rolleyes:.

Only WTAworld would tell an 18 year old lad who's probably petrified about the rest of his life to start thinking about abortion being murder and paternity tests when he's had less than a day to get to terms with life changing news :retard:.

~Bakers Boy~ I'm really sorry to read of your turmoil but you'll clearly only find judgement and internet idiocy here. Perhaps you ought to be looking closer to home for sensible advice from people that know and care about you.

:worship: You absolutly right, this guy ask some advice, you should give him all possible options and not talking about what he should do. Talking about murder so cruel. He just wants some help.

@Bakers Boy: I hope you find the right people to talk with, and make the decission which is best for everyone.

TdF_DBLL
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:34 PM
oh my god this post is filled with some lies...

i am birth control, as i said earlier and the "failure" rate is 2-3% if taken properly. the failure rate of condoms is 2% with correct use. if she was using the pill correctly, and the condom was used correctly there should only be a 1%. my vote is she is being dishonest about his paternity and/or her use of the pill.

if you are not white and or if that child is born with any sort of birth defects adoption is a joke because its really not likely to happen, and really putting that child in the hands of the state. and in the usa, that is a life sentence. the foster care system is the usa is more a place of abuse and neglect than a place a love and goodness. many people do it for the money and treat the kids like crap. and if they dont the system certainly does.

anyway, your numbers are straight up lies (not to mention the flat out lie about condom companies being in league with abortion clinics) . sorry.

i disagree with your view on abortion, but thats your view.

p.s. i have noticed that a number of people have suggested not to have an abortion, which is their right, but none have offered homes. what i am saying is this. if you decide to have this baby please, please, please make sure you have a home where people will be able to meet all of that child's needs for the next 18 years (regardless of medical health), BEFORE you have the baby. i think its REALLY unfair to bring a child into this world without a stable home for him/her.

I guess you have the right numbers, I even thought I was less, about 1% failure and in combination with pill it should be almost nil.

But it can happen, but make sure the baby it's yours. Maybe she knows more but just don't want tell you. Maybe she will tell you if the first shock is over.

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:38 PM
No offence intended to any posters in here - most of whom I have a high opinion of, but this is one of the rare occasions when I despair of this place :rolleyes:.

Only WTAworld would tell an 18 year old lad who's probably petrified about the rest of his life to start thinking about abortion being murder and paternity tests when he's had less than a day to get to terms with life changing news :retard:.

~Bakers Boy~ I'm really sorry to read of your turmoil but you'll clearly only find judgement and internet idiocy here. Perhaps you ought to be looking closer to home for sensible advice from people that know and care about you.

thats unfair. i dont any malice is intended by any posters in this thread. particularly when BB did ask about paternity and about how to deal with this girl. do you think we would be better people if we ignored his questions and just called each other stupid? i think that answering his question and offering advise is fine. there are many different opinions and he is likely to face pressure from all sides. there is nothing wrong with him knowing about his options, options that those near him may not know of, or may know of but keep from him. my 2 cents.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:07 PM
. I think its REALLY unfair to bring a child into this world without a stable home for him/her.

This is the biggest load of bull I keep hearing over and over again. "I baby needs to be in a stable home, and if it can't provide one, KILL IT before it has a chance!" That is what you are saying.

If your line of reasoning is to be followed, why is it illegal to kill 1 month olds, or 5 years olds when they are caught in an "unstable" home? IT's THE SAME CHILD whether it's in the womb at 1 week or 9 months.

Why doesn't anyone actually think WHAT THE BABY WOULD WANT. I AM SURE it would not "choose" itself to be aborted.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:08 PM
:worship: You absolutly right, this guy ask some advice, you should give him all possible options and not talking about what he should do. Talking about murder so cruel. He just wants some help.

@Bakers Boy: I hope you find the right people to talk with, and make the decission which is best for everyone.

Talking about murder is not CRUEL if you are trying to stop it.

¤CharlDa¤
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:47 PM
This is the biggest load of bull I keep hearing over and over again. "I baby needs to be in a stable home, and if it can't provide one, KILL IT before it has a chance!" That is what you are saying.

If your line of reasoning is to be followed, why is it illegal to kill 1 month olds, or 5 years olds when they are caught in an "unstable" home? IT's THE SAME CHILD whether it's in the womb at 1 week or 9 months.

Why doesn't anyone actually think WHAT THE BABY WOULD WANT. I AM SURE it would not "choose" itself to be aborted.

I hope you are a vegetarian! :wavey: :kiss:

¤CharlDa¤
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:48 PM
:worship:

It is my opinion that the self righteous who like to inform everybody what they can and can't do aren't legitimate human beings, but what do I know.

Completely agree. Only each person knows what they believe in and what is best for them. Nobody has the right to force them in some values or opinions.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:54 PM
I hope you are a vegetarian! :wavey: :kiss:
People > Animals.

Reuchlin
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:54 PM
Completely agree. Only each person knows what they believe in and what is best for them. Nobody has the right to force them in some values or opinions.
It's not really "forcing" a value on someone if this value is UNIVERSALLY applicable, like murder.

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 10:57 PM
This is the biggest load of bull I keep hearing over and over again. "I baby needs to be in a stable home, and if it can't provide one, KILL IT before it has a chance!" That is what you are saying.

If your line of reasoning is to be followed, why is it illegal to kill 1 month olds, or 5 years olds when they are caught in an "unstable" home? IT's THE SAME CHILD whether it's in the womb at 1 week or 9 months.

Why doesn't anyone actually think WHAT THE BABY WOULD WANT. I AM SURE it would not "choose" itself to be aborted.
:yawn:

if you want to have this debate start a thread and i would be more than happy to take you on. but i wont do it here. this is not the thread for this. :wavey:

Couver
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:05 PM
People > Animals.

Well there goes your argument. People are animals. Either way the choice of what to do with a pregnancy is fully up to the women and a lesser degree to the possible father. It is her body and her choice.

Joana
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:06 PM
Preaching about abortion being a murder on a scared 18 year old boy faced with a prospect of being a father is extremely poor taste.

Wigglytuff
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:08 PM
Preaching about abortion being a murder on a scared 18 year old boy faced with a prospect of being a father is extremely poor taste.
i have to say i agree.

manu
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:15 PM
What does it say that you are having sex with her but you "don't like her that much"? That means you are using her -- and it may have been mutual, but that doesn't change it. That means you view her as a "thing," not as a person.


How can you tell how two people you have never seen or spoken treat and see each other by a few typed sentences? And even IF you would be able to make a fair judgement about that, I strongly doubt that BB is helped with speculations on his private life. I don't mean to offend or sound belittling (at all), but why not just try to only focus on the constructive part here, I think that's the least we can do.

¤CharlDa¤
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:20 PM
Well there goes your argument. People are animals. And a fully developed cow, pig or chicken feels the same fear and desire to preserve it's life that any fully developed human being would. A fetus does not, unless you can tell me all the memories you remember when you were a fetus.
Exactly. I'm not saying murder is great here, but I'm just saying that someone who is so strongly attached to some *pro-life* values should be pro-life in every aspect of his life!

¤CharlDa¤
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:21 PM
It's not really "forcing" a value on someone if this value is UNIVERSALLY applicable, like murder.

Murder is indeed a universally applicable value. On the other hand, abortion being murder can't be universal.

selking
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:23 PM
pro choice, if you don't feel the baby will be raised in a good envorment then please don't bring it into this world

RainyDays
Jun 20th, 2006, 11:36 PM
This is the biggest load of bull I keep hearing over and over again. "I baby needs to be in a stable home, and if it can't provide one, KILL IT before it has a chance!" That is what you are saying.

If your line of reasoning is to be followed, why is it illegal to kill 1 month olds, or 5 years olds when they are caught in an "unstable" home? IT's THE SAME CHILD whether it's in the womb at 1 week or 9 months.

Why doesn't anyone actually think WHAT THE BABY WOULD WANT. I AM SURE it would not "choose" itself to be aborted.


a being is not fully developed in the womb at this time of a girl's pregnancy. i'm positive that this girl is not past the first trimester, where the being doesn't even have a human shape.
that said, this form of life is unable to think at this time and therefore unable to make the decision.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 21st, 2006, 01:09 AM
Preaching about abortion being a murder on a scared 18 year old boy faced with a prospect of being a father is extremely poor taste.

It sure is.

You would think that those who are so concerned about the unborn would have at least an ounce of compassion for those who are currently living independent of their mother's uterus.

Apparently not.

Disgusting.

Sally Struthers
Jun 21st, 2006, 01:26 AM
Hon, you're probably screwed unless she's lying. I don't think it's really in your best interests to keep the kid being so young. You could put it up for adoption or have an abortion.

new-york
Jun 21st, 2006, 01:39 AM
Hon, you're probably screwed unless she's lying. I don't think it's really in your best interests to keep the kid being so young. You could put it up for adoption or have an abortion.

as simple as that. and cruel. that's the thing. be brave.

LoveFifteen
Jun 21st, 2006, 01:45 AM
sexual "mistakes" :confused:

I'm sure you'll be a good father :kiss: :)

Go fuck yourself, douchebag.

slk45
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:00 AM
I hope that Bakers Boy will be more discerning than the great number of posters here who went into a rage pretending to come to his aid. By promoting evil choices, or by claiming that no choice is evil, you are leading him into a dark hole of solipsism.

The only resolution to BB's dilemma will be for him to recognize the problems facing this new human being, and to focus on this helpless child instead of his own immature impulses. He has a great opportunity to grow up here; after all, at 18 years old you are an adult, regardless of whether the culture wants to prolong your adolescence into middle age.

BB is to be commended for "standing by" the girl rather than abandoning her. But telling her to kill the baby -- and that is MURDER -- is to seek a quick fix to get off the hook, to wallow further in irresponsibility.

It is important to involve your parents. HilaryDuffFanboy is exactly correct:"If they really are "god squad", then they will not brush the baby away. I am sure they will get really really mad at you, but if they are true Christians, they won't disown either of you, or ignore your child or not support you two or anything like that."

But don't let anyone, including parents, pressure you into consulting a "women's health" clinic or abortion clinic. They have one goal when a "client" enters the building: kill the baby and get the money.

There are pro-life organizations and agencies everywhere that are ready to help girls (and guys) in your situation.

Jigglypuff is correct in this: "honestly, i would make it clear to both her and her parents, and yours that you are very doubtful that they child is yours. and you should be clearly that you are not going to accept any parental responsibilities until you have medical proof that you are indeed the father."

Several posters have put forth the infantile argument that "what's right for you may not be right for someone else." If you really believe that, then you have no grounds for arguing the point with someone who disagrees with you. More importantly, you have no moral defense against a Hitler, a Lenin or a Stalin, or some street thug who decides to kill you for the fun of it. He believes "it's right" for him.

Others complain that it is cruel or judgmental or "poor taste" (or "closed-minded" according to one person here) to inform BB that abortion is murder and therefore wrong. Is it cruel to warn someone that drinking poison will kill him? Is it judgmental to put guard rails on narrow mountain roads? If a child is lost at night in a forest teeming with beasts, and littered with swamps, caverns and cliffs, you are not helping him at all by pointing to all the paths and saying, "These are your options. Good luck."

Those who are warning BB away from abortion have his, the girl's, and the baby's best interests clearly in mind. Short-term "solutions" lead to emotional and physical disaster. Yes there is plenty of substantiation for the emotional distress caused to women (and husbands and BFs) because of abortion. In some cases, it may fester for 30 years before it comes out, but it's there.

Then there is the canard repeated here that those who are concerned about the unborn don't care about those "outside of their mother's uterus," or that they don't come forth to adopt the child. The fact is that it is pro-lifers who support the various services for unwed mothers, organizations to provide alternative pregnancy counseling, and adoption services. Abortion providers and abortion counselors and "family planners" don't do that.

No, my numbers relating to failure rates are not lies. The 2% & 3% rates claimed above are based on technological laboratory mechanical tests, not real world conditions. I did not say the condom manufacturers were in league with abortion clinics. It is the abortion clinics and providers which promote the condom propaganda to ensure a regular stream of clients.

Whether a being is human depends on its nature, not its age or location or current abilities. The unborn child, from the moment of conception, is a human being; if it is not human then, it will never be human.

Wigglytuff
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:47 AM
No, my numbers relating to failure rates are not lies. The 2% & 3% rates claimed above are based on technological laboratory mechanical tests, not real world conditions. I did not say the condom manufacturers were in league with abortion clinics. It is the abortion clinics and providers which promote the condom propaganda to ensure a regular stream of clients.


yes they are lies and dishonest. the 2% is based on correct usage of actually people. a condom LIKE ANY PRODUCT must be used as directed. you dont say stoves are ineffective because if you dont turn them on they dont heat your food (because really, if you dont turn the stove on you will not get cooked anything)??? so why would u use that argument about anything else unless you are deliberately seeking to be dishonest. yeah a condom isnt going to prevent pregnancy if its not used properly, but its NOT rocket science, no product is going to do what its supposed to if not used properly (seriously try getting on the internet with a rock and then say that internet doesnt work. its all a lie to try to get you buy internet connections. retarded right? )

also, this has NOTHING to do with clinics.

clinics promote correct use, and as i said the correct usage failure rates are with real people. Proper usage by REAL people actually PREVENTS unwanted pregnancies. to say that promoting proper condom use encourages unwanted pregnancies so people can have abortions. its completely dishonest and filled with unfounded and deliberate, bullshit lies.


saying that people who dont seek to scare a teenager into carrying out their own agenda (i mean YOU) doesn't mean that you are a supporter or somehow are (or should be) forced to remain silent about of hitler or any other villian you can think up. this is fucking bullshit and just plain :retard: .

venus_rulez
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:46 AM
It's not really "forcing" a value on someone if this value is UNIVERSALLY applicable, like murder.



Actually....if you "murder" someone in self defense is it still wrong? Nice try.

Mana
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:05 AM
Hi guys..

First things first, I'm not gay, I'm bi. (So that makes it even more complicated)

I has a bad day at work today. I work at the bank, as a teller, and at the end of the day I was short $400 :eek::spit::o Thats a lot of money when your in the bank. I did not really want to go this morning, but I figured seeing my mates would put a positive spin on things. I was a mess.

Anyway, after work I went to see Toni (gf), we had a chat. It was prob the first time in my life that I did not know what to say. It was so uncomfortable. I did ask that question..'are you sure the babys mine?'...she gave me her word that she had not been with anyone else in over two months. I belive her too, she was so genuine. But I still want the test done, and I told her that. She agreed to it. She still has no idea about what she wants to do with the baby, she put me on the spot and asked me. I stutted out..'I dont know'.


Thanks for all the advice guys, all of it helps, despite what other people may say. I just still cant believe it, what went from casual sex each week, is now like..the rest of my life.

Oh, and btw, we ended up fighting, after she told me that she has not taken the pill for over two months. I called her a 'stupid bitch', and just kind of left. I'm going to give her a call tonight, to work things out.

mandy7
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:06 AM
wow, are you screwed!

good luck mate

if i were you i'd hope for an abortion

Wigglytuff
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:11 AM
Hi guys..

First things first, I'm not gay, I'm bi. (So that makes it even more complicated)

I has a bad day at work today. I work at the bank, as a teller, and at the end of the day I was short $400 :eek::spit::o Thats a lot of money when your in the bank. I did not really want to go this morning, but I figured seeing my mates would put a positive spin on things. I was a mess.

Anyway, after work I went to see Toni (gf), we had a chat. It was prob the first time in my life that I did not know what to say. It was so uncomfortable. I did ask that question..'are you sure the babys mine?'...she gave me her word that she had not been with anyone else in over two months. I belive her too, she was so genuine. But I still want the test done, and I told her that. She agreed to it. She still has no idea about what she wants to do with the baby, she put me on the spot and asked me. I stutted out..'I dont know'.


Thanks for all the advice guys, all of it helps, despite what other people may say. I just still cant believe it, what went from casual sex each week, is now like..the rest of my life.

Oh, and btw, we ended up fighting, after she told me that she has not taken the pill for over two months. I called her a 'stupid bitch', and just kind of left. I'm going to give her a call tonight, to work things out.

sorry to here she was dishonest, i do hope things work out for the best.

Alicia Rocks
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:23 AM
We're all here for you BB!

"Sluggy"
Jun 21st, 2006, 07:58 AM
Personally, I think it's a good idea to know if you are straight or not before sleeping with women - no offense to bi-sexuals, just would prefer you not to date my daughters.. hehe. Ya know, if you are going to make love to women, you have to understand that she can get pregnant. Nuts are not just for cracking and eating remember? Babies come out of testicles, not just hand cream. Anyway, good luck with fatherhood and remember, Dadies change diapers too!

slk45
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:01 AM
saying that people who dont seek to scare a teenager into carrying out their own agenda (i mean YOU) doesn't mean that you are a supporter or somehow are (or should be) forced to remain silent about of hitler or any other villian you can think up. this is fucking bullshit and just plain :retard: .I will leave you to your delusions about condoms.

I don't have an agenda here: if they decide not to kill the baby, I will have no personal gain. If they decide on an abortion, the babykillers will make more money; I personally will have no direct loss, but the world will be poorer because a human life that God decided should come into existence will be snuffed out; and Satan will chalk up another victim.

I'm sorry you are confused about the problem of moral relativism. I did not say it makes you a supporter of Hitler, or that you are forced to remain silent about Hitler. What I said was:you have no moral defense against a Hitler, a Lenin or a Stalin, or some street thug who decides to kill you for the fun of it. He believes "it's right" for him. You may have an emotional defense against a murderous maniac, but you will have no moral defense, because your moral relativism has ceded any moral ground for objection to pure subjectivity. Viz., if the murderer believes it's ok for him to kill you, under relativist logic your contrary opinion doesn't really matter.

Actually....if you "murder" someone in self defense is it still wrong? Nice try.If you kill someone in self-defense, by definition it is not murder. Something which you obviously know by the fact that you put "murder" in quotes. A weak try.

Bakers Boy, good luck in sorting this out. Do the right thing.

pla
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:10 AM
Hi guys..

First things first, I'm not gay, I'm bi. (So that makes it even more complicated)

I has a bad day at work today. I work at the bank, as a teller, and at the end of the day I was short $400 :eek::spit::o Thats a lot of money when your in the bank. I did not really want to go this morning, but I figured seeing my mates would put a positive spin on things. I was a mess.

Anyway, after work I went to see Toni (gf), we had a chat. It was prob the first time in my life that I did not know what to say. It was so uncomfortable. I did ask that question..'are you sure the babys mine?'...she gave me her word that she had not been with anyone else in over two months. I belive her too, she was so genuine. But I still want the test done, and I told her that. She agreed to it. She still has no idea about what she wants to do with the baby, she put me on the spot and asked me. I stutted out..'I dont know'.


Thanks for all the advice guys, all of it helps, despite what other people may say. I just still cant believe it, what went from casual sex each week, is now like..the rest of my life.

Oh, and btw, we ended up fighting, after she told me that she has not taken the pill for over two months. I called her a 'stupid bitch', and just kind of left. I'm going to give her a call tonight, to work things out.


Hey Bakers boy, I am sorry to hear what's happening. But try to calm down, anger and fear are not the best chancellors, you know it. It easier to say than do but you'll have to cool down your head because you'll need it these days in order to make decisions.

But don't worry, you're life isn't finished, whatever decision you and your gf take :wavey: You have so many opportunities, so it's only up to chose one and remember that it's the right one for YOUR situation at the moment.

As some people here said, talk to someone whom you trust.

*abby*
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:14 AM
bakers boy i think you have every right to walk away especially considering she lied to you about being on the pill. that was probably the most stupid thing she could have done!it is very admirable that you wan to stand by her but would you really want to raise a child with a girl who lied to you over something so important???
i dont agree with abortion but if its what you choose then i hope everything works out
good luck mate

Sally Struthers
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:28 AM
bakers boy i think you have every right to walk away especially considering she lied to you about being on the pill. that was probably the most stupid thing she could have done!it is very admirable that you wan to stand by her but would you really want to raise a child with a girl who lied to you over something so important???
i dont agree with abortion but if its what you choose then i hope everything works out
good luck mate

He can't just walk out on her. It's his fault too even though she's a liar. He'd still be in the same situation even if she took the pill and it happened to fail despite how remote a chance that would be. If it were me (assuming I were you of course ;) ) I'd opt for the abortion/adoption and get her out of my life.

Hayato
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:28 AM
:eek: Jono :sad: :hug:

See what happens when I don't talk to you for an extended period of time? :awww: :hug: :p

hope things turn out okay

mandy7
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:31 AM
BB is to be commended for "standing by" the girl rather than abandoning her. But telling her to kill the baby -- and that is MURDER -- is to seek a quick fix to get off the hook, to wallow further in irresponsibility.

oh PUH-LEASE!
you can hardly call it murder!
it's not even really alive yet

you either 'destroy' something unborn
(which isnt a bad idea if you look at the world we're living in now)
or you mess up the life of 2 young people who still have their life ahead of them

abortion is the way i say

"Sluggy"
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:48 AM
all i can say to young men out there, if you have no money just ask for hand job or oral with condoms. Intercourse is for Men who can take responsibility.

TdF_DBLL
Jun 21st, 2006, 12:18 PM
oh PUH-LEASE!
you can hardly call it murder!
it's not even really alive yet

you either 'destroy' something unborn
(which isnt a bad idea if you look at the world we're living in now)
or you mess up the life of 2 young people who still have their life ahead of them

abortion is the way i say

Don't forget we live in a different world.

mandy7
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:11 PM
Don't forget we live in a different world.

What do you mean by that?

slk45
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:43 PM
oh PUH-LEASE!
you can hardly call it murder!
it's not even really alive yet
How utterly absurd can you be? If "it" wasn't alive "it" would not be developing. From the very instant of conception there is an incredible flurry of inner-directed growth and development rushing to the single goal of delivering a fully-developed infant. The zygote has its full complement of 46 human chromosomes, and all the physical characteristics and genetic dispositions of the child to be born are already determined. At this instant, it is a unique one-celled human being. All the zygote needs is time to develop and mature, just like you. you either 'destroy' something unborn
(which isnt a bad idea if you look at the world we're living in now)
or you mess up the life of 2 young people who still have their life ahead of them

abortion is the way i say"The world we're living in now" is driven by the notion that human beings are disposable. Your "solution" to their problem is a spawn of that same mindset, and will "mess up" their lives even more.

TdF_DBLL
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:05 PM
What do you mean by that?

Moet ik nog zeggen dat wij wat nuchterder denken, of is dat zojuist al beantwoord?

roooobert
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:34 PM
please don't go to abortion :) it is murder, and VERY cruel


I'm so SICK of people with those stupid opinions, especially americans... :mad: :mad:

Its okey to kill 100000.......00... of people in the world but not to stop a thing inside the stomach to create to a human being??? a human being that isnt even wanted

I know that it isnt all americans opinions but pretty much the government's opinions that you voted for..

VeeDaQueen
Jun 21st, 2006, 03:48 PM
I'm so SICK of people with those stupid opinions, especially americans... :mad: :mad:

Its okey to kill 100000.......00... of people in the world but not to stop a thing inside the stomach to create to a human being??? a human being that isnt even wanted

I know that it isnt all americans opinions but pretty much the government's opinions that you voted for..

it is wanted. there are so many people that would love to adopt that can't have children naturally. that's your opinion, but to me, it is only common sense that taking an innocent unborn childs potential life away from him is murder and cruelty. it's just not right.

partbrit
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:01 PM
I think it's a good idea to know if you are straight or not before sleeping with women

Bisexual people do not learn if they are "straight or not." They are not straight. They are not gay. They are bisexual.

roooobert
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:04 PM
it is wanted. there are so many people that would love to adopt that can't have children naturally. that's your opinion, but to me, it is only common sense that taking an innocent unborn childs potential life away from him is murder and cruelty. it's just not right.

okey, if thats your opinions so fine.. i just hope you are against the iraqi war (becuase every iraqi people that dies is a murder) and pro gay adoption ( cause there are many not wanted children without a family..

i also wonder when you think life starts..

TdF_DBLL
Jun 21st, 2006, 04:06 PM
it is wanted. there are so many people that would love to adopt that can't have children naturally. that's your opinion, but to me, it is only common sense that taking an innocent unborn childs potential life away from him is murder and cruelty. it's just not right.

It's a lot harder to give your child away for adoption (cause than it's really yours) than to have an abortion. So it's better to have an abortion if you don't want to have the child. Otherwise it may have an awful life.

Wigglytuff
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:29 PM
I will leave you to your delusions about condoms.

I don't have an agenda here: if they decide not to kill the baby, I will have no personal gain. If they decide on an abortion, the babykillers will make more money; I personally will have no direct loss, but the world will be poorer because a human life that God decided should come into existence will be snuffed out; and Satan will chalk up another victim.

I'm sorry you are confused about the problem of moral relativism. I did not say it makes you a supporter of Hitler, or that you are forced to remain silent about Hitler. What I said was: You may have an emotional defense against a murderous maniac, but you will have no moral defense, because your moral relativism has ceded any moral ground for objection to pure subjectivity. Viz., if the murderer believes it's ok for him to kill you, under relativist logic your contrary opinion doesn't really matter.

If you kill someone in self-defense, by definition it is not murder. Something which you obviously know by the fact that you put "murder" in quotes. A weak try.

Bakers Boy, good luck in sorting this out. Do the right thing.

how you can say dont have an agenda is beyond me. note i never said you dont have right to have an agenda. i said that bulling a scared boy with your lies (and they are lies) is wrong. particularly when it comes from a place as you forcing your agenda on another person. :wavey:

Kart
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:30 PM
thats unfair. i dont any malice is intended by any posters in this thread. particularly when BB did ask about paternity and about how to deal with this girl. do you think we would be better people if we ignored his questions and just called each other stupid? i think that answering his question and offering advise is fine. there are many different opinions and he is likely to face pressure from all sides. there is nothing wrong with him knowing about his options, options that those near him may not know of, or may know of but keep from him. my 2 cents.

You are on the list of posters that I meant no offence to :hearts: :kiss: :wavey: but just like you, I was offering my two cents as well - the internet is not the place to solve issues like these.

Cyberspace can promise a lot that real world around is can't deliver in practice.

None of us really know what services are on offer to the thread starter for emotional support where he is, let alone abortion or paternity testing (both of which carry their own risk to mother and baby, not to mention the psychological impact on all involved.)

Wigglytuff
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:35 PM
You are on the list of posters that I meant no offence to :hearts: :kiss: :wavey: but just like you, I was offering my two cents as well - the internet is not the place to solve issues like these.

Cyberspace can promise a lot that real world around is can't deliver in practice.

None of us really know what services are on offer to the thread starter for emotional support where he is, let alone abortion or paternity testing (both of which carry their own risk to mother and baby, not to mention the psychological impact on all involved.)
that is completely fair. :)

venus_rulez
Jun 21st, 2006, 05:52 PM
If you kill someone in self-defense, by definition it is not murder. Something which you obviously know by the fact that you put "murder" in quotes. A weak try.


Wrong the definition of murder is the taking of one's life. If you murder someone in self defense it is ok because your life was in danger which means the poster was incorrect in saying that murder is universally wrong because it is not. And one of the many things people who are anti abortion fail to understand is that there are some people who do not feel an unborn child is alive. That is inarguable. There is still debate between people much smarter than you or I on when life truly begins. Bringing God into this is ridiculous as you don't speak for the Lord and neither do I, so stand on your own two feet about your opinion.

Couver
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:23 PM
Again abortion is a woman's choice, and her right to decide what she does with her body. No preachy individual can decide what she chooses to do with it. That fetus is a part of her body and she controls what happens to it. Also unless abortion is illegal in the country this young woman lives in then it's all well and legal and certainly not murder. Murder is a breach of the law and abortion in progressive countries smart enough to realize it is a woman's choice what to do with her body is not.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 21st, 2006, 09:59 PM
I...but the world will be poorer because a human life that God decided should come into existence will be snuffed out; and Satan will chalk up another victim.



:retard:

roooobert
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:12 PM
I will leave you to your delusions about condoms.

I don't have an agenda here: if they decide not to kill the baby, I will have no personal gain. If they decide on an abortion, the babykillers will make more money; I personally will have no direct loss, but the world will be poorer because a human life that God decided should come into existence will be snuffed out; and Satan will chalk up another victim.

I'm sorry you are confused about the problem of moral relativism. I did not say it makes you a supporter of Hitler, or that you are forced to remain silent about Hitler. What I said was: You may have an emotional defense against a murderous maniac, but you will have no moral defense, because your moral relativism has ceded any moral ground for objection to pure subjectivity. Viz., if the murderer believes it's ok for him to kill you, under relativist logic your contrary opinion doesn't really matter.




Bakers Boy, good luck in sorting this out. Do the right thing.

OMG, people can really be :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

people like u make me scared.. if a thing in your stomach has the right to a life, even if its not a life yet :confused: all the iraqis should have the right to be alive, and all people should have the same rights to adoption, marriage etc

i cannot believe that people in america, a leading country in many areas have so many idiots.. stop creating a religion that suits u.. i guess god and jeses wouldnt be so happy over all dead people US is guilty for..

Scotso
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:20 PM
If you used protection, there is a possibility it isn't yours. I don't see how it really could be. She might be :retard: and playing games with you. If she really is pregnant, and the baby really is yours, then you need to have an abortion or give it up for adoption. You two are too young to raise a child.

Scotso
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:24 PM
Oh, and btw, we ended up fighting, after she told me that she has not taken the pill for over two months. I called her a 'stupid bitch', and just kind of left. I'm going to give her a call tonight, to work things out.

Do you think she was TRYING to get pregnant? Even if the child is yours, I don't feel you have any obligation to if unless you choose to be there. If she lied to you about being on the pill, she kind of screwed you over on purpose.

Scotso
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:26 PM
I'm so SICK of people with those stupid opinions, especially americans... :mad: :mad:

Its okey to kill 100000.......00... of people in the world but not to stop a thing inside the stomach to create to a human being??? a human being that isnt even wanted

I know that it isnt all americans opinions but pretty much the government's opinions that you voted for..

*I* didn't vote for him.

iPatty
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:27 PM
If they decide on an abortion, the babykillers will make more money; I personally will have no direct loss, but the world will be poorer because a human life that God decided should come into existence will be snuffed out; and Satan will chalk up another victim.

Please, leave religion out of this. It is a person's choice whether they want an abortion or not. Nothing that you say or do can stop them. So please, stop trying to convince us all and turn us into hardcore religious maniacs like yourself.

Onto my Ignore List you go.

iPatty
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:30 PM
OMG, people can really be :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

people like u make me scared.. if a thing in your stomach has the right to a life, even if its not a life yet :confused: all the iraqis should have the right to be alive, and all people should have the same rights to adoption, marriage etc

i cannot believe that people in america, a leading country in many areas have so many idiots.. stop creating a religion that suits u.. i guess god and jeses wouldnt be so happy over all dead people US is guilty for..

Trust me, not all Americans are like that. The Republicans, like the poster you quoted, would be the people that are religiously crazy. They're also the people that voted for George W. Bush to send troops to Iraq to kill innocent people, yet throw fits and protest the thought of killing something that's not even born yet.

Bakers Boy, ask her if she wants an abortion. It would be the best thing to do in your situation.

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:42 PM
Hi guys..

First things first, I'm not gay, I'm bi. (So that makes it even more complicated)

I has a bad day at work today. I work at the bank, as a teller, and at the end of the day I was short $400 :eek::spit::o Thats a lot of money when your in the bank. I did not really want to go this morning, but I figured seeing my mates would put a positive spin on things. I was a mess.

Anyway, after work I went to see Toni (gf), we had a chat. It was prob the first time in my life that I did not know what to say. It was so uncomfortable. I did ask that question..'are you sure the babys mine?'...she gave me her word that she had not been with anyone else in over two months. I belive her too, she was so genuine. But I still want the test done, and I told her that. She agreed to it. She still has no idea about what she wants to do with the baby, she put me on the spot and asked me. I stutted out..'I dont know'.


Thanks for all the advice guys, all of it helps, despite what other people may say. I just still cant believe it, what went from casual sex each week, is now like..the rest of my life.

Oh, and btw, we ended up fighting, after she told me that she has not taken the pill for over two months. I called her a 'stupid bitch', and just kind of left. I'm going to give her a call tonight, to work things out.
First of all, it's not her fault about not taking the pill. You have some responsibility here too, so calling her a stupid bitch was so wrong. But, I'm sure you realize that already and will be apologizing as soon as possible.

Anyway, I only have one piece of advice for you, stop asking for and listening to advice on a message board from strangers who have their own issues. Go immediately to a wise adult, whether it's your parents or her parents or both or older siblings or aunt or uncle, some adult you trust who has yours and her best interest at heart who has guided you in the past or a professional counselor at a clinic and get some sound advice on choices and medical help regardless of your choice. That's the first thing. Then tell your parents so they can help, because one way or another they will find out and you don't want anything to get out of control. You want to be able to prevent a castrophy. Please, please take heed to this advice.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 21st, 2006, 10:46 PM
Thanks for all the advice guys, all of it helps, despite what other people may say.

On that note, as tasteless as I feel some of the posters have been in here... I will save my arguing with the self righteous for another thread, wish you much luck with this, and leave it at that.

:)

Wigglytuff
Jun 21st, 2006, 11:12 PM
I only have one piece of advice for you, stop asking for and listening to advice on a message board from strangers who have their own issues.

:haha: :haha: you know if he takes your advice he cant... oh never mind. :haha: :lol: :lol:

sorry, i know this is a serious issue, i just could not help myself....

p.s. denise can i make this quote my new sig?

Denise4925
Jun 21st, 2006, 11:14 PM
:haha: :haha: you know if he takes your advice he cant... oh never mind. :haha: :lol: :lol:

sorry, i know this is a serious issue, i just could not help myself....

p.s. denise can i make this quote my new sig?
No, but I did think about that when I posted it, but how else could I convey that to him without advising him? :shrug: It's a catch 22. Besides, I don't have any issues. :p

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 03:41 AM
a being is not fully developed in the womb at this time of a girl's pregnancy. i'm positive that this girl is not past the first trimester, where the being doesn't even have a human shape. Of course it's not "fully developed." It is busy developing. However, this photo of a 7 to 8-week old embryo was featured on the cover of Life Magazine, April 30, 1965, part of a series called The Drama of Life Before Birth, pp. 62-69, by noted Swedish photographer Lennart Nilsson.


The photo is explained by Paul E. Rockwell, M.D:Years ago, while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured tubal pregnancy (at two months) I was handed what I believed to be the smallest human being ever seen. The embryo sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male, swimming extremely vigorously in the amnionic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. The tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent as regards to the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. The baby was extremely alive and did not look at all like the photos and drawings of 'embryos' which I have seen. When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediately lost its life and took on what is accepted as the appearance of an embryo at this stage, blunt extremities, etc.

VeeDaQueen
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:28 AM
okay, i didn't think the war could possibly be brought up in this thread but it was, so here it goes:

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A WAR? People are going to die, it's unfortunate, but it's going to happen. Stop living in your little peace and love fantasy world and open your eyes.

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:30 AM
Wrong the definition of murder is the taking of one's life. If you murder someone in self defense it is ok because your life was in danger which means the poster was incorrect in saying that murder is universally wrong because it is not.I would have thought that you might consult a dictionary before making such a post, but apparently that was not the case.

Let's begin with Black's Law Dictionary: Murder is defined as "The unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express or implied." Under English common law, murder is "The willful killing of any subject whatever, with malice aforethought, whether the person slain shall be an Englishman or a foreigner." Also, "The killing of any person under the king's peace, with malice prepense or aforethought, either express, or implied by law."

BLD notes that Self-Defense is "An excuse for the use of force in resisting an attack on the person, and especially for killing an assailant." Also, "The right of a man to repel force by force even to the taking of life in defense of his person, property or habitation, or of a member of his family, against anyone who manifests, intends, attempts or endeavors by violence or surprise, to commit a forcible felony."

However, it is not necessary to have Black's Law Dictionary to understand the distinction between murder and killing. The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary will inform you that murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought."

Killing in self-defense is not murder under law or any intelligent understanding of it because it is not unlawful. And it is even seen as a right, with some exceptions. And one of the many things people who are anti abortion fail to understand is that there are some people who do not feel an unborn child is alive. That is inarguable. There is still debate between people much smarter than you or I on when life truly begins. Bringing God into this is ridiculous as you don't speak for the Lord and neither do I, so stand on your own two feet about your opinion.When human life begins is not a matter of opinion, regardless of how many people think so. It is a biological, genetic, medical, fact that life begins at conception. That is not theology, that is not opinion, that is science.

The First International Conference on Abortion, held in Washington D.C., in October 1967, brought together authorities from around the world in the fields of medicine, law, ethics and social sciences. The first major question considered by the medical group was, "When does human life begin?"

Their conclusion (19-1) was as follows: "The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of the sperm and the egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not human life." They continued, "The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week child and a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation."

My argument stands on scientific fact, not opinion and not religion. Why did I mention God? Because no human being can come into existence without His deliberate creative act. A human being is a composite of body and soul. The human soul is a spiritual entity, and material principles (i.e, the bodies of the parents) cannot produce it. This is why human reproduction is referred to as "procreation." It is a distinctively different process from brute animal reproduction.

Crazy Canuck
Jun 22nd, 2006, 04:49 AM
I totally just threw up in my mouth.

Now I am being tasteless

switz
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:42 AM
is it just a coincidence that there's an advertisement for brad and angelina's baby photo in this thread :confused:

i would listen to the WTAworld ads :worship:

no seriously tough break mate. IMO you can't let this girl guilt you into being the baby's father. If you're not that close you've got to know for sure.

I don't claim to be an expert on the topic - although i love babies so if my girlfriend said she was preggers i think i'd secretly be happy (on the outside i'd have to act freaked out to be normal)

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:42 AM
In this thread, Baker Boy was seeking information and guidance with a difficult problem. Offering him warm fuzzies and contentless "support" tell him nothing and leaves him twisting in the wind. Those who are demanding the blood of the child do not have his interests at heart; they are pushing ideology.

I can say I have no agenda because their decision to not kill their baby does not benefit me in any way. And if they decide to follow the bleating of Orwellian sheep here, and "choose" to kill their baby, it will not harm me. And I will never know their decision.

It is not "bullying" or "preaching" or "self-righteousness" to present him with the cold reality of his situation. It is the only honest way to address his questions. If someone has terminal cancer, you do not tell him he has a cold so as to avoid causing anxiety and stress.

In his posts above, BB demonstrates that he, at least, is open to hearing the truth. A sign of maturity.

To cover up the truth about different "choices" with slogans and appeals to self-centeredness is to deny his dignity as a human being having both intellect (to understand truth) and free will (to choose the good as it is understood). That is not compassion. It is ignorance at best and malice at worst.

There is a place for "religion" here: "The truth shall set you free."

Wigglytuff
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:47 AM
In this thread, Baker Boy was seeking information and guidance with a difficult problem. Offering him warm fuzzies and contentless "support" tell him nothing and leaves him twisting in the wind. Those who are demanding the blood of the child do not have his interests at heart; they are pushing ideology.

I can say I have no agenda because their decision to not kill their baby does not benefit me in any way. And if they decide to follow the bleating of Orwellian sheep here, and "choose" to kill their baby, it will not harm me. And I will never know their decision.

It is not "bullying" or "preaching" or "self-righteousness" to present him with the cold reality of his situation. It is the only honest way to address his questions. If someone has terminal cancer, you do not tell him he has a cold so as to avoid causing anxiety and stress.

In his posts above, BB demonstrates that he, at least, is open to hearing the truth. A sign of maturity.

To cover up the truth about different "choices" with slogans and appeals to self-centeredness is to deny his dignity as a human being having both intellect (to understand truth) and free will (to choose the good as it is understood). That is not compassion. It is ignorance at best and malice at worst.

There is a place for "religion" here: "The truth shall set you free."

ok a lot of posters have offered kind words, but your level of dishonest agenda is intended to manipulate. u r all talk and no action. otherwise you would have offered a home for this baby rather than your manipulation and cruel self serving agenda.

i fail to see why you are refusing to start a thread about your agenda, its clear thats what you want to talk about.

venus_rulez
Jun 22nd, 2006, 06:04 AM
I would have thought that you might consult a dictionary before making such a post, but apparently that was not the case.

Let's begin with Black's Law Dictionary: Murder is defined as "The unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express or implied." Under English common law, murder is "The willful killing of any subject whatever, with malice aforethought, whether the person slain shall be an Englishman or a foreigner." Also, "The killing of any person under the king's peace, with malice prepense or aforethought, either express, or implied by law."

BLD notes that Self-Defense is "An excuse for the use of force in resisting an attack on the person, and especially for killing an assailant." Also, "The right of a man to repel force by force even to the taking of life in defense of his person, property or habitation, or of a member of his family, against anyone who manifests, intends, attempts or endeavors by violence or surprise, to commit a forcible felony."

However, it is not necessary to have Black's Law Dictionary to understand the distinction between murder and killing. The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary will inform you that murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought."

Killing in self-defense is not murder under law or any intelligent understanding of it because it is not unlawful. And it is even seen as a right, with some exceptions. When human life begins is not a matter of opinion, regardless of how many people think so. It is a biological, genetic, medical, fact that life begins at conception. That is not theology, that is not opinion, that is science.

The First International Conference on Abortion, held in Washington D.C., in October 1967, brought together authorities from around the world in the fields of medicine, law, ethics and social sciences. The first major question considered by the medical group was, "When does human life begin?"

Their conclusion (19-1) was as follows: "The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of the sperm and the egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not human life." They continued, "The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week child and a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation."

My argument stands on scientific fact, not opinion and not religion. Why did I mention God? Because no human being can come into existence without His deliberate creative act. A human being is a composite of body and soul. The human soul is a spiritual entity, and material principles (i.e, the bodies of the parents) cannot produce it. This is why human reproduction is referred to as "procreation." It is a distinctively different process from brute animal reproduction.


I stand corrected. But wouldn't you agree, that by the very definition you put up, that abortion is not murder since it is lawful?

Couver
Jun 22nd, 2006, 06:18 AM
In this thread, Baker Boy was seeking information and guidance with a difficult problem. Offering him warm fuzzies and contentless "support" tell him nothing and leaves him twisting in the wind. Those who are demanding the blood of the child do not have his interests at heart; they are pushing ideology.

I can say I have no agenda because their decision to not kill their baby does not benefit me in any way. And if they decide to follow the bleating of Orwellian sheep here, and "choose" to kill their baby, it will not harm me. And I will never know their decision.

It is not "bullying" or "preaching" or "self-righteousness" to present him with the cold reality of his situation. It is the only honest way to address his questions. If someone has terminal cancer, you do not tell him he has a cold so as to avoid causing anxiety and stress.

In his posts above, BB demonstrates that he, at least, is open to hearing the truth. A sign of maturity.

To cover up the truth about different "choices" with slogans and appeals to self-centeredness is to deny his dignity as a human being having both intellect (to understand truth) and free will (to choose the good as it is understood). That is not compassion. It is ignorance at best and malice at worst.

There is a place for "religion" here: "The truth shall set you free."

So it's ok for you to present him with your ideology right? The bottom line is that it is largely up to the young woman what happens with this pregnancy. I believe Baker Boy is located in Australia, a place were thankfully abortion is legal. That means that the young woman BB knows has the option of deciding what to do with her body, whatever that may be, despite the preachings of people who have the gall to think they even have one ounce of a say in what she does with her life. Abortion is not murder in countries that realize a woman has a right to choose and not be dictated to by dogma. So your idea of abortion being murder is wrong, because if she choose to have an abortion it would be perfectly legal.

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 07:24 AM
I stand corrected. But wouldn't by the very definition you put up mean that abortion is not murder since it is lawful?An important and logical question! The first answer is that legally, abortion is not murder. Until the U.S. Supreme Court unilaterally rewrote our laws, it was murder, or a lesser form of murder, in most states, with some exceptions. At the same time, a number of states had contradictory laws which provided if a pregnant woman's unborn child was killed as a result of an attack on her, the perpetrator had committed some form of murder against the child. Ditto with the death of an unborn child in an auto accident caused by a reckless driver; he was guilty of manslaughter.

But the judicially-mandated change in our laws raises a more important question: Can government legalize evil acts? Or are governments subject to the moral law? The Founders of our country certainly believed the latter -- see the Declaration of Independence. They held to a theory of natural law which developed in roughly the 17th C., and which was derived from the earlier natural law theory, primarily expounded by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th C. Aquinas held that if laws were enacted that were serious violations of the moral law, those were not laws at all and should not be obeyed. (Much as earlier courts have maintained that unconstitutional laws are not laws, and need not be obeyed.) Aquinas also maintained that if a government were sufficiently evil, the people were justified in revolting against their prince and deposing him.

Coming from the 18th to the 19th C., we have the rise of legal positivism, which denies the reality of the natural law. The basic proposition here is that law is whatever the lawmaker says it is. There are no moral restraints on the lawmaker. This gives us the totalitarianism of the 20th C.

The most corrosive influence in the U.S. for secularism and legal positivism was Oliver Wendell Holmes, virtually worshipped by today's legal positivists, who basically control almost all of the law schools in the country. They are fond of quoting one of Holmes' dicta: "The life of the law is not logic, but experience." This justifies disparity of treatment of like cases. Law becomes arbitrary and wicked. This is crystallized one of Holmes' infamous cases, Buck v. Bell, which forced an allegedly retarded young woman to be sterilized. Her mother and grandmother were also said to be "feebleminded." A proponent of eugenics (one of Hitler's main themes), Holmes infamously ruled "Three generations of imbeciles are enough." Jefferson rejected the notion that the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of the Constitution. If that were the case, he said, we have no Constitution at all.

Governments are subject to the moral law, just as all of us are. The fact that a government legalizes abortion does not mean it is not murder, because morally it clearly is murder. Just as when totalitarian courts execute a man on trumped-up charges, it is not a legitimate case of capital punishment, it is simply state-sanctioned murder. Just as when the Supreme Court in 1857 upheld slavery in the Dred Scott case, that did not change the fact that slavery is immoral.

To say abortion is ok because it is legal puts one on the same moral plane as the Nazi guards who professed innocence of crimes in the Holocaust, because they were only following orders. When the law violates fundamental human rights, it is no longer law, but despotism.

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 07:50 AM
So it's ok for you to present him with your ideology right? The bottom line is that it is largely up to the young woman what happens with this pregnancy. I believe Baker Boy is located in Australia, a place were thankfully abortion is legal. That means that the young woman BB knows has the option of deciding what to do with her body, whatever that may be, despite the preachings of people who have the gall to think they even have one ounce of a say in what she does with her life. Abortion is not murder in countries that realize a woman has a right to choose and not be dictated to by dogma. So your idea of abortion being murder is wrong, because if she choose to have an abortion it would be perfectly legal.Opposing the killing of innocent human beings is not an ideology.

It is not only ok to tell him killing innocent babies is wrong, it is an obligation. It is up to him to accept or reject the information. But I will not leave him in a state of confusion.

For the sake of argument, the young woman can do whatever she wants with her body. However, the unborn child is not her body. It is within her body, and dependent on her for nutrition and shelter (just as her 2-year old child outside her body would be dependent on her for the same), but the child is a separate being. This has been known since the 16th century, when the Italian physician/surgeon Giulio Cesare Aranzi (also known as Arantius) demonstrated that the maternal and fetal circulations were separate — neither continuous nor contiguous.

As to whether the state can legalize murder, see the statement above.

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:03 AM
ok a lot of posters have offered kind words, but your level of dishonest agenda is intended to manipulate. u r all talk and no action. otherwise you would have offered a home for this baby rather than your manipulation and cruel self serving agenda.This is a non sequitur. To insist that you not kill someone does not require one to take custody of your intended victim. Except possibly in an extreme circumstance, where murder is imminent and one is in a position to immediately do something about it.

However, a) the mother & child & apparent father are in New Zealand and I am in the U.S.; b) as a single male, I would not qualify to adopt a child under nearly all bureacratic provisions; c) there are lots of childless couples nearly everywhere who would qualify to adopt, and undoubtedly plenty in New Zealand. If they decide to adopt out, they can contact services such as Birthright, Catholic Charities, and others. e.g., http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Birthright/about.html
d) not that it's any of your concern, but the pro-life organization I work with, and thousands more like it, help fund the services available to unwed mothers and victims of abortion, help direct them to resources when asked, and educate them on life issues.i fail to see why you are refusing to start a thread about your agenda, its clear thats what you want to talk about.Actually, I'm on this site to talk about tennis. While randomly looking thru the threads, the heading on BB's initial post caught my eye. His post demanded a response and I responded. The frenzied reactions and confusion from some of you demanded additional responses, and the irrational reactions from a couple others are not worthy of a response.

My "agenda" is to see the end of legal abortion in the U.S., the end of trafficking in fetal parts, the end of the push for euthanasia of the elderly and infirm, and to turn out of office politicians who vote in favor of those evils. BB and his gf are not in the U.S. and so I have no agenda with respect to them. Unless you call giving honest answers to a matter of life and death an agenda.

No need for another thread. BB set forth his dilemma. I responded that the right and moral thing to do is to choose life. A number of you are urging him to go slouching toward Gomorrah into the culture of death.

moby
Jun 22nd, 2006, 05:50 PM
"The placenta is composed of two parts, one of which is genetically and biologically part of the fetus, the other part of the mother."

Seeing as the placenta is the connection between the two bodies and the mother owns half of it, the mother has a "right" to withhold/excise nutrients from the fetus from her half. It would be about as moral as denying food to the starving people in say, Africa, and having them die of famine (which almost all of us do). Of course, it's not simple to just remove the mother's part of the placenta, but you get the idea that arguing abortion from a biological perspective lends itself to various quandaries too.

Oh slk, and it would help if you do away with the dramatic biblical references to God, Satan, etc. Cause it doesn't further your arguments in any way.

Wigglytuff
Jun 22nd, 2006, 06:47 PM
This is a non sequitur. To insist that you not kill someone does not require one to take custody of your intended victim. Except possibly in an extreme circumstance, where murder is imminent and one is in a position to immediately do something about it.

However, a) the mother & child & apparent father are in New Zealand and I am in the U.S.; b) as a single male, I would not qualify to adopt a child under nearly all bureacratic provisions; c) there are lots of childless couples nearly everywhere who would qualify to adopt, and undoubtedly plenty in New Zealand. If they decide to adopt out, they can contact services such as Birthright, Catholic Charities, and others. e.g., http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Birthright/about.html
d) not that it's any of your concern, but the pro-life organization I work with, and thousands more like it, help fund the services available to unwed mothers and victims of abortion, help direct them to resources when asked, and educate them on life issues.Actually, I'm on this site to talk about tennis. While randomly looking thru the threads, the heading on BB's initial post caught my eye. His post demanded a response and I responded. The frenzied reactions and confusion from some of you demanded additional responses, and the irrational reactions from a couple others are not worthy of a response.

My "agenda" is to see the end of legal abortion in the U.S., the end of trafficking in fetal parts, the end of the push for euthanasia of the elderly and infirm, and to turn out of office politicians who vote in favor of those evils. BB and his gf are not in the U.S. and so I have no agenda with respect to them. Unless you call giving honest answers to a matter of life and death an agenda.

No need for another thread. BB set forth his dilemma. I responded that the right and moral thing to do is to choose life. A number of you are urging him to go slouching toward Gomorrah into the culture of death.

blah blah blah,

basicly you seek to control what others do, but in terms of doing what is right by your very definition (that they baby be adopted) you are unwilling to do anything.

you are a crazy fool with no sense of obligation for yourself but all the time in the world for trying to control others.

slk45
Jun 22nd, 2006, 08:29 PM
"The placenta is composed of two parts, one of which is genetically and biologically part of the fetus, the other part of the mother."

Seeing as the placenta is the connection between the two bodies and the mother owns half of it, the mother has a "right" to withhold/excise nutrients from the fetus from her half. It would be about as moral as denying food to the starving people in say, Africa, and having them die of famine (which almost all of us do). Of course, it's not simple to just remove the mother's part of the placenta, but you get the idea that arguing abortion from a biological perspective lends itself to various quandaries too.

Oh slk, and it would help if you do away with the dramatic biblical references to God, Satan, etc. Cause it doesn't further your arguments in any way.Interesting, but the analogy isn't quite apt, close but not quite. A more precise analogy with your "starving people" would be if they had food on their plates or in their pantries, and you went in and snatched it away from them. That is on the same moral plane as the mother withholding nutrients from her unborn child. But I don't see that this presents any quandary. Both actions would be immoral.

The "biological perspective" establishes the unborn child as both human and living. "Arguing abortion" proceeds after that, using the biological conclusion as a premise. After all, if we are to judge the morality of killing something, we first ought to know what that something is.

Technically, the placenta is a temporary organ that attaches to the uterine wall of the mohter and via the umbilical cord to the infant, and acts as both a conduit and a filter between mother and child. It is not a physical "part" like a finger. To withhold nutrition from the child, the mother would have to stop nutrients in her bloodstream from flowing into the placenta, or would have to disengage the placenta from the uterine wall. The practicalities of doing so are irrelevant, because nothing said above establishes a "right" in the mother to withhold nutrition from her child; indeed, as a mother (even an accidental one), she has an obligation to her child who is absolutely dependent on her at this stage for sustenance.

The same principle applies to a stranger on your doorstep who is immediately in danger of death from lack of food. He has a legitimate claim on your food, property rights notwithstanding; or more correctly, you have an obligation to feed him. However, this is a different situation than a claim of simply "being hungry." This latter does not entail that obligation.

A confusion lies with the reference to "denying food" to starving people, which you say "almost all of us do." Virtually none of us is in a position to "deny food" to the starving, unless we're in the situation outlined in the paragraph above. On the contrary, most Western governments have sent hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to famine-struck nations in any given year. Plus private non-sectarian and religious organizations, such as Pat Robertson's Operation Blessing, have delivered more in hunger relief and other types of aid than all governments combined.

Famine since the 20th C. is largely a political weapon, sometimes used to deliberately starve minorities in certain countries (as Stalin did to the Ukrainians), and sometimes the deliberate policy of withholding aid received to drive out minorities or simply because of corruption (as with various African despots); but often too it is the result of socialist economies which are incapable of feeding their peoples.

Hardly anything dramatic in my references to God. For those who are interested, it can increase understanding. My references to Satan are to highlight a certain reality: Man is said to be made in the image and likeness of God because, like God, he has an intellect and will; i.e., man is a spiritual as well as a material component. Satan cannot attack God directly, therefore he attacks human life, made in God's image.

The assault on the dignity of human beings stretches across the spectrum from the newly conceived to the elderly and the terminally ill. It includes the attempt to eliminate all distinctions between human beings and other creatures, reducing all to material entities defined by impulses and appetites. The campaign against life is global and organized, and is satanic in its origins and purposes. From Margaret Sanger to Paul Ehrlich to the Federal and Florida courts that executed Terry Schiavo, the contempt for human life is demonstrable and palpable.

venus_rulez
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:12 PM
To say abortion is ok because it is legal puts one on the same moral plane as the Nazi guards who professed innocence of crimes in the Holocaust, because they were only following orders. When the law violates fundamental human rights, it is no longer law, but despotism.


Basically it sounds like you're saying abortion is murder just legally mandated. I could say the same thing about "murdering" someone in self defense. It's the same just legally mandated. Abortion is such a polarizing issue because really both sides talk about two different things. People who are against say it's murder. If everybody agreed it was murder then people wouldn't do it. People who are in favor of allowing women to do it don't realize that an abortion is killing something. Is it a life or just a bunch of cells? Again that is still being debated by people much smarter than both you and me, but it is certainly killing something. Which goes back to my very first point that the issue is much to polarizing for ANYONE to take "the moral highground" and pretend there is irrefutable evidence for them to take the position they take. There isn't, if there was we wouldn't be debating the topic right now. Also, your Nazi example is totally different. Doing something illegal simply because you were ordered or because there was no legal precedent saying you would still be held responsible does not excuse you from crimes. It isn't a moral arguement at all but a desperate one.

Chris 84
Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:02 PM
WTF?

This thread was opened so that someone could ask for advice and possibly get some words of support, and its been hijacked by someone who is determined to talk a load of crap about something which is totally irrelevant (and not just to talk a load of crap, but to write essays on the subject :rolleyes: )
This thread is not supposed to be about the rights and wrongs of abortion :rolleyes:

roarke
Jun 23rd, 2006, 12:43 AM
Shes really freaked out. Our parents don't know atm. I kind of want her to have an abortion, but I'm not going to make that decision for her. Her parents are hard out like 'god squad' and they would not want her to have an abortion. We can not just go and do it because her with her being 17, her parents need to sign the forms and shit.

btw, we were safe, so I dont know what happened. This may sound really shallow, but the baby may not be mine, shes quite a popular girl (if you know what I mean) so....I want to have some kind of test done. But I cant just ask her now can I?!


Typical bullshit response form a guy trying see ifhe can weasel his way out of the mess he has made.

If you truthfully don't believe this baby is yours then ask her. Tell her you will do a DNA test at birth before you assume responsibility.

Next time keep it in your pants or learn the proper way to use protection !

Sally Struthers
Jun 23rd, 2006, 12:57 AM
Typical bullshit response form a guy trying see ifhe can weasel his way out of the mess he has made.

If you truthfully don't believe this baby is yours then ask her. Tell her you will do a DNA test at birth before you assume responsibility.

Next time keep it in your pants or learn the proper way to use protection !

:worship:

Reuchlin
Jun 23rd, 2006, 03:08 AM
Basically it sounds like you're saying abortion is murder just legally mandated. I could say the same thing about "murdering" someone in self defense. It's the same just legally mandated. Abortion is such a polarizing issue because really both sides talk about two different things. People who are against say it's murder. If everybody agreed it was murder then people wouldn't do it. People who are in favor of allowing women to do it don't realize that an abortion is killing something. Is it a life or just a bunch of cells? Again that is still being debated by people much smarter than both you and me, but it is certainly killing something. Which goes back to my very first point that the issue is much to polarizing for ANYONE to take "the moral highground" and pretend there is irrefutable evidence for them to take the position they take. There isn't, if there was we wouldn't be debating the topic right now. Also, your Nazi example is totally different. Doing something illegal simply because you were ordered or because there was no legal precedent saying you would still be held responsible does not excuse you from crimes. It isn't a moral arguement at all but a desperate one.

RE: #1 bolded statement: Last I checked most people think that a number of things are wrong, yet still do them.

#2 Bolded statements: In Nazi Germany, the "sub-humanity" of Jews and Slavs was supported by a number of 'scholarly' studies written by very bright individuals at some of the world's best universities.

#3 I think that in this statement you either mis-understand 1) what the poster was attempting to communicate, or 2) the political and legal realities of Nazi Germany. Attrocities against Jews and Slavs were not only 100% legal, but also encouraged by the Nazi government.

mandy7
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:05 AM
Can't believe people are against abortion :rolleyes:

venus_rulez
Jun 23rd, 2006, 06:14 AM
RE: #1 bolded statement: Last I checked most people think that a number of things are wrong, yet still do them.

#2 Bolded statements: In Nazi Germany, the "sub-humanity" of Jews and Slavs was supported by a number of 'scholarly' studies written by very bright individuals at some of the world's best universities.

#3 I think that in this statement you either mis-understand 1) what the poster was attempting to communicate, or 2) the political and legal realities of Nazi Germany. Attrocities against Jews and Slavs were not only 100% legal, but also encouraged by the Nazi government.



People still do things that they consider wrong but most people aren't murderers. You're talking about lying, or cheating on someone, quite different from murder. Plus, as an international society we have expectations that people are upheld too. It doesn't matter if the treatment of the Jews was legalized by the Nazis, because as an international community we said it was not. Again there are people much smarter than anyone on this board, who work directly in this field and know a lot more about than anyone here, and they still fall on both sides.

Mana
Sep 2nd, 2006, 07:11 AM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!

Ferosh
Sep 2nd, 2006, 08:09 AM
Congratulations!!! I hope everything works out great.

Sam L
Sep 2nd, 2006, 08:22 AM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!

Congrats!! :)

I find young fathers intriguing. :angel:

slk45
Sep 2nd, 2006, 03:54 PM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!
Congratulations! Thanks for letting us know. There may be difficult times, but you can overcome them.

You are helping tilt the balance in a precarious world toward the good.

Wigglytuff
Sep 2nd, 2006, 04:07 PM
congrats and best of luck to you.

SilK
Sep 2nd, 2006, 04:46 PM
Being a Daddy is the most amazing thing ever! :awww:

SloKid
Sep 2nd, 2006, 05:36 PM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!
Good luck, I hope it turns out great. :)

CooCooCachoo
Sep 2nd, 2006, 05:40 PM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!

Brave decision :worship:

Yes, it will be very tough - probably tougher than you, or I, could ever imagine at the moment - but it will also be very rewarding!

I am really proud of you not leaving her alone with the baby :worship: It takes guts to do that! It is the most ethical of course, but alas too many people are not like that anymore.

Very proud :bowdown:

Good luck :wavey:

venus_rulez
Sep 2nd, 2006, 05:53 PM
How precious, a baby! Good on you for doing the right thing and sticking by her, the rewards will be tenfold.

controlfreak
Sep 2nd, 2006, 05:59 PM
you can have it's first shit cast in gold and sell it on WTAWorld...

James
Sep 2nd, 2006, 06:05 PM
Good thing you are sticking by your girlfriend. Good luck to the two of you. :yeah:

Ballbasher
Sep 2nd, 2006, 06:17 PM
I wish you really all the best including your baby :hug: Do you already if it's a by or a girl?

Hayato
Sep 2nd, 2006, 10:05 PM
Congrats Jono :yeah: Happy for you mate :D

Pasta-Na
Sep 2nd, 2006, 10:24 PM
:D :yeah: good choice.

Mana
Sep 2nd, 2006, 11:53 PM
I wish you really all the best including your baby :hug: Do you already if it's a by or a girl?

We dont know yet, in about a months time were going to find out :)

kittyking
Oct 7th, 2006, 09:46 AM
Today I found out that my gf (well kind of) is pregnant. What do I do? I am going to stand by her, but shes only 17 and I'm only 18. I dont even like her that much, it was more of a sex thing and now this has happened. Just when life was at its best too. I'm fucked..

Try living with her, a secure family environment will be whats best for your baby

kittyking
Oct 7th, 2006, 09:48 AM
Oh and as quite a few posters have said next time dont be so stupid and use a condom - and if you think condoms a too dirty word then dont have sex at all

Kaiwhakahare
Oct 7th, 2006, 10:47 AM
Good Luck Bro! Just don't become like Jake the Muss and get your old lady to be cookin' you eggs!

KimC&MariaSNo1's
Oct 7th, 2006, 10:54 AM
good luck with dat

roarke
Oct 7th, 2006, 03:39 PM
Hey guys
A small update, were having the baby! I'm making good money, but it will still be tough. Our parents have been great. At first I did not want it at all, but I'm looking forward to it now. Around 6 months to go!


For the baby's sake you and your girlfriend need to take a few parenting classes, now that you have decided to keep the baby. This will keep you from being overwhelmed during the tough times, and there will be many. Parenting a chld is no joke, it's not playing house, it is serious path.

Cat's Pajamas
Oct 7th, 2006, 04:42 PM
I missed the update a month ago but I'm glad to hear about your decision! Good luck :yeah:

drake3781
Oct 7th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Lookng at your original thread title, please make sure to apologize to the girl(friend) for thinking of yourself first when she had the much worse situation. She may seem like she has forgotten/forgiven you but a person cannot forget that and will need a lot of apology and support to show her that you are really changed.

Good luck.

SilK
Oct 7th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Being a young daddy is the best thing ever. :D

RenaSlam.
Oct 7th, 2006, 08:39 PM
:eek:

Mana
Oct 7th, 2006, 09:08 PM
Awwwww...thanks guys! Lifes really great atm! I just cant wait now, were all getting ready and excited! Thanks to everyone for there kind words and support! Luv ya all :kiss:!

Mana
Oct 7th, 2006, 09:10 PM
Also its time to start thinking about names! Boy or Girl....any ideas??

Coz im stumped!

Ryan
Oct 7th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Also its time to start thinking about names! Boy or Girl....any ideas??

Coz im stumped!



I'm not even going to start thinking about that, or my own girlfriend may get ideas.... :tape:. Just read the thread though, and congrats. I have a buddy who went through the same thing, and it can be tough. I definately agree about taking a parenting class, just to cover the basics that can be surprisingly hard to figure out. Good luck and keep us updated!

Lunaris
Oct 7th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Today I found out that my gf (well kind of) is pregnant. What do I do? I am going to stand by her, but shes only 17 and I'm only 18. I dont even like her that much, it was more of a sex thing and now this has happened. Just when life was at its best too. I'm fucked..
This could be a signature as hell. :rolls: :haha:
I wish you good luck.

myxomatosis
Oct 7th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Also its time to start thinking about names! Boy or Girl....any ideas??

Coz im stumped!Congrats Bakers Boy! I'm sure you'll make a terrific father :D

I've always liked Collin or Rory for a boy and Cory for a girl. :)

TF Chipmunk
Oct 8th, 2006, 03:20 AM
Being a young daddy is the best thing ever. :D
Silas, are you trying to tell us something? ;)

Aaron.
Oct 8th, 2006, 03:26 AM
Silas :haha: :D

maxomax
Oct 8th, 2006, 03:36 AM
Wow Baker Boy :D Good luck! You are lucky because baby are fantastic!!!

TF Chipmunk
Oct 8th, 2006, 03:37 AM
I would like to start a family when I'm in my mid-twenties :) It's great you seem so excited about this. By the way, did you ever think about changing the thread title ;)

Apoleb
Oct 8th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Congrats on the news.

One of the few advantages of being gay is that you can't have a baby when you don't want one.

manu
May 12th, 2007, 08:23 PM
Hey Baker's Boy! (who's now changed his nickname into Ivanova apparently?) I was wondering how things were going :), figuring that the baby must have been born somewhere the past few months! Is it a boy or a girl?? And which name did you choose? And how are the fresh parents doing? I wish you and your girlfriend the very best with your child!! :) Greets,

manu