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RobTheRusski
Jun 15th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I'm just wondering why is it that if someone makes a post about the Williams sisters, especially Venus nowdays, it always seems so damn controversial no matter what is said? People get so serious and lash out at the thread starter, even if it's not their intentions.

For example, if someone posts "Venus played awful today", Venus' fans go out of control, and nuts on the board, when its simply a fact.. Sometimes she does play awful.

And on the flip side, if theres a post saying "Venus Williams is an awesome player the vee haters always get nuts and say she's not worthy and many people could kick her ass, and that the thread starter is a "troll"? Not everyone is here to start controversy, some people just like to state what they think, and legitimately ask questions!

Pureracket
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:10 PM
Do you really think you'll be forgiven for this thread, troll?


http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=241799

RobTheRusski
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:19 PM
See.. my point exactly.. Why would I be considered a "troll" for starting this thread? Can people not even ask a legitimate question around here without being branded for their curiosity?
Btw, I'm new to this board, so I didnt even know what a troll was, so i lookedit up in wikipedia..

"Someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion."

Alright, cool.. I'm sorry, but I have wayyyyyyy better things to do than sit here and start threads JUST to make people mad.. Sorry folks, I believe in tennis, I'm fans of everyone (yes, from Hingis to Sharapova to Venus), and I think that starting threads to piss other fans off is childish.

And as far as redeeming myself for this thread, I honestly could give two shits. I've got PLENTY of things to worry about, being respected here by a bunch of strangers (no offense) is the least concern. There's more to life than this message board. I suggest you get one, prick.

Amanda
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:20 PM
OMG! Get over it....people take this message board stuff way too seriously....who really cares??? An opinion about a player is just that. We all know that there are major hating a-holes on this board who attack everything about their non faves, and there are many posters who are on the brink of a nervous breakdown because their fave is dissed...LOL! you people are a riot!

dreamgoddess099
Jun 15th, 2006, 08:29 PM
You can talk about them if you want, just like we can talk about you once you do.:lol:

GracefulVenus
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:18 PM
At least the Williams Sisters are not boring!

Kart
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:23 PM
What people can do and what they choose to do are two different things.

No.1Hingis
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:53 PM
I used to dont do that... I really.. well.. Im not interested so close in to the sisters.. cause Im not fan.. when something I consider is fair I join to it.. when isnt.. well same.. try to let credit always to all players.. obviously when we talk about my fav.. things chance a little bit cause I have to cheer her.. is the same I guess aplies to you.. and is normal.. just cant ask to everybody here let out their opinnions.. whatever they are.. I guess here is for free discution.. is not like every polemic turns around WILLIAM SISTERS (hum! not really).. I guess there are some others great players and controvesial as them or more.. so..

Everyone here expose her taste to the rest members.. thats the deal in a forum where a lot of fans of dif girls are posting.. THATS THE MEANING OF BE FANS..

sfselesfan
Jun 15th, 2006, 09:57 PM
This whole thread is a self-fulfilling prophecy, just like http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=241799 was.

I don't think VW fans are any more reactive than Masha fans, Serena fans, Dementieva fans, Myskina fans, or Justine fans. I think there are a lot of Venus fans, and that makes it seem more intense.

If I created a thread titled "Dementieva is the worst server in the top 100" I bet I'd get some people fired up.

Don't create threads meant to incite debate and then complain about it! It's stupid.

SF

RobTheRusski
Jun 15th, 2006, 10:09 PM
This whole thread is a self-fulfilling prophecy, just like http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=241799 was.

I don't think VW fans are any more reactive than Masha fans, Serena fans, Dementieva fans, Myskina fans, or Justine fans. I think there are a lot of Venus fans, and that makes it seem more intense.

If I created a thread titled "Dementieva is the worst server in the top 100" I bet I'd get some people fired up.

Don't create threads meant to incite debate and then complain about it! It's stupid.

SF

This thread wasnt mean to "incite" debate...Simply asking for someone to answer the question.. Also, I'm not complaining about debate.. nothign wrong with debate, just as long as its normal, and not so ridiculous by all the fans or "haters"

SelesFan70
Jun 15th, 2006, 10:12 PM
You can talk about them if you want, just like we can talk about you once you do.:lol:

Ann Coulter would be so proud! ;)

(I totally agree with you. Say what you want, just don't expect there to NOT be a response.)

sfselesfan
Jun 15th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Maybe then you need to think a little more about the threads you create. It seems to me that you want the drama to happen and that's why you create what you do. It's possible to frame a question in a manner that makes it seem like a simple question, but in reality it is meant to create drama.

I can create a thread that says "Why Does Justine Feel the Need to Bend the Rules?" and I'm going to expect people to get just as heated as they do on one of the WS threads you create. I could then come back and say "it was just a simple question, I don't know why everyone's getting upset."

SF

Carmen Mairena
Jun 15th, 2006, 11:18 PM
I've never had bad words towards them. In fact, I love them! :inlove: But I'm not one of those fans... :hatoff:

Pheobo
Jun 15th, 2006, 11:22 PM
At least the Williams Sisters are not boring!


I disagree.

Anyways, you should consider yourself lucky for being called a troll...then you have an excuse to dye your hair green and run around in a man-thong. Oh, but but don't worry about it. There are those strange, defensive, die-hard WS fans that label any negativity towards them as the work of a troll.

Denise4925
Jun 16th, 2006, 12:23 AM
I disagree.

Anyways, you should consider yourself lucky for being called a troll...then you have an excuse to dye your hair green and run around in a man-thong. Oh, but but don't worry about it. There are those strange, defensive, die-hard WS fans that label any negativity towards them as the work of a troll.
^^^^ = TROLL

drake3781
Jun 16th, 2006, 01:33 PM
I'm just wondering why is it that if someone makes a post about the Williams sisters, especially Venus nowdays, it always seems so damn controversial no matter what is said? People get so serious and lash out at the thread starter, even if it's not their intentions.

For example, if someone posts "Venus played awful today", Venus' fans go out of control, and nuts on the board, when its simply a fact.. Sometimes she does play awful.

And on the flip side, if theres a post saying "Venus Williams is an awesome player the vee haters always get nuts and say she's not worthy and many people could kick her ass, and that the thread starter is a "troll"? Not everyone is here to start controversy, some people just like to state what they think, and legitimately ask questions!


I completely understand your post because I feel the same way. I think some WS fans are looking for trouble and since they really don't find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then they can brand people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting but I think they find it normal.... must be like that in their normal lives too. Glad I don't have that kind of life. I adore V&S but have a double perspective of them now... my old perspective and the one formed in reaction to these so called fans. It's a shame because they are creating what they proclaim to be fighting against.

Fortunately, not all WS fans are this way, most are not. :wavey:

Pureracket
Jun 16th, 2006, 02:24 PM
I completely understand your post because I feel the same way. I think some WS fans are looking for trouble and since they really don't find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then they can brand people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting but I think they find it normal.... must be like that in their normal lives too. Glad I don't have that kind of life. I adore V&S but have a double perspective of them now... my old perspective and the one formed in reaction to these so called fans. It's a shame because they are creating what they proclaim to be fighting against.

Fortunately, not all WS fans are this way, most are not. :wavey:Move on. . ..

vwfan
Jun 16th, 2006, 02:27 PM
You can talk about them if you want, just like we can talk about you once you do.:lol: :kiss:

Infiniti2001
Jun 16th, 2006, 02:41 PM
I adore V&S but have a double perspective of them now... my old perspective and the one formed in reaction to these so called fans. It's a shame because they are creating what they proclaim to be fighting against.

This says more about you than the so-called fans if you asked me. Why in the world would a bunch of faceless individuals change your perspective of Venus and Serena? If you adored them as you claim nothing or no one should change your view :rolleyes:

What I've learned here over the years is that if you wish to criticize/ joke about other people's faves you open yourself to criticism/ jokes about your faves and yourself too--- In other words you gotta bring ass to kick ass ---- end of discussion:shrug:

StarDuvallGrant
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:06 PM
I completely understand your post because I feel the same way. I think some WS fans are looking for trouble and since they really don't find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then they can brand people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting but I think they find it normal.... must be like that in their normal lives too. Glad I don't have that kind of life. I adore V&S but have a double perspective of them now... my old perspective and the one formed in reaction to these so called fans. It's a shame because they are creating what they proclaim to be fighting against.

Fortunately, not all WS fans are this way, most are not. :wavey:

You are judgmental. And you are wrong. Two things no one I know would be proud of. The problem with people like yourself is you put yourself on a level where you think you have the right to say anything - especially anything negative, and when another fan questions you or is just as strong in their opinion, you tuck your tail, run, and cry foul. You can't take what you give out and you are the weaker for that. Don't put that off on others, it's all on you. Your life must suck since you settle for being so obnoxious.

"Topaz"
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:23 PM
What people can do and what they choose to do are two different things.Awwww! That's a great line.

It's very unfortunate that people, groups, nations usually choose to act to the limit of their perceived power advantage. And doing so, they still feel righteous because: "might is right", or in LaFontaine's words, "la raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure".

When the perceived power advantage is real, the end result usually is domination of some sort, invasion & occupation, or outright colonization.
When that perceived power advantage is only a mirage, you get a clash of titans.

Now, guess what we're getting between the pro- and anti-Williams fans in the very small and limited environment that this messageboard represents.

terjw
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:43 PM
I'm just wondering why is it that if someone makes a post about the Williams sisters, especially Venus nowdays, it always seems so damn controversial no matter what is said? People get so serious and lash out at the thread starter, even if it's not their intentions.

For example, if someone posts "Venus played awful today", Venus' fans go out of control, and nuts on the board, when its simply a fact.. Sometimes she does play awful.

And on the flip side, if theres a post saying "Venus Williams is an awesome player the vee haters always get nuts and say she's not worthy and many people could kick her ass, and that the thread starter is a "troll"? Not everyone is here to start controversy, some people just like to state what they think, and legitimately ask questions!

You have your answer with post #2 of this thread. You can't have a rationale conversation with ppl like that. Not sure what you are on about the flip side though. Certainly not in this thread anyway.

Pureracket
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:47 PM
You have your answer with post #2 of this thread. You can't have a rationale conversation with ppl like that. Not sure what you are on about the flip side though. Certainly not in this thread anyway.. . .and here come the hateful posters. . .World Cup must have made you all late.

You hear the word "Williams," and you come running, salivating like the rest.

IceHock
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:52 PM
I'm just wondering why is it that if someone makes a post about the Williams sisters, especially Venus nowdays, it always seems so damn controversial no matter what is said? People get so serious and lash out at the thread starter, even if it's not their intentions.

For example, if someone posts "Venus played awful today", Venus' fans go out of control, and nuts on the board, when its simply a fact.. Sometimes she does play awful.

And on the flip side, if theres a post saying "Venus Williams is an awesome player the vee haters always get nuts and say she's not worthy and many people could kick her ass, and that the thread starter is a "troll"? Not everyone is here to start controversy, some people just like to state what they think, and legitimately ask questions!




sorry but this is wtaworld,if we just talked about them,it would be a boring site if you ask me.you need haters,lovers,trolls in my mind. iknow some people hate them but it makes the site better.

TonyP
Jun 16th, 2006, 03:57 PM
Know what? I wish they could. In fact, I wish that people had just delt with them as two more tennis players from the very beginning. Unfortunately, that did not happen, as their participation on the WTA tour and in tennis in general became a racial issue almost right from the start. And obviously race is a very volitile, divisive issue.

What is strange is that the Williams sisters were not the first black girls in tennis, or even the only black girls in tennis at the time they arrived in the sport. There were others already there and other black girls have come along since without their race becoming such an issue.

And there have been Latino girls in tennis without their race becoming an issue. Today, Chinese girls (Asians, as to race) have begun making names for themselves and race has not been talked about all that much.

Some of the problems with the Williams sisters come from fans, in my opinion, but part of the problem has also been the media and the WTA itself, which played up the race of the Williams sisters in some kind of misguided effort to attract black TV views or perhaps attract more blacks into becoming tennis players.

Why misguided? Because tennis should be open to everyone and pretty much is. What has kept out blacks in the US is the high cost of the sport, not any officials barriers any more. (show me some poor white girls who have succeeded in tennis without outside financial help. It simply doesn't happen.) And nobody has solved the financial barrier problem, although I am sure the USTA player development fund has tried so subsidize the training of some black players,

But why blacks and not American latinos or American Asians or native Americans.

NO one race should be courted any more than any other.

By emphasizing race, the tennis became just another venue to prove or disprove racial stereotypes and to fight battles over civil rights, discrimination, quotas, etc. And what in many ways it did was simply inflame hatred.

Bringing on Venus and Serena Williams as two talented young tennis players who happened to be sisters would have been very helpful. Emphasizing their race was almost bound to lead to trouble and it most certainly did, especially among fans.

Pureracket
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:05 PM
. . .and the flood gates are now officially open.

:bolt:

RAA
Jun 16th, 2006, 04:08 PM
well there is NOTHING normal about Venus and serena. so talking about them is always a supernormal experience.

"Topaz"
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:36 PM
...
Some of the problems with the Williams sisters come from fans, in my opinion, but part of the problem has also been the media and the WTA itself, which played up the race of the Williams sisters in some kind of misguided effort to attract black TV views or perhaps attract more blacks into becoming tennis players.
...
But why blacks and not American latinos or American Asians or native Americans.

NO one race should be courted any more than any other.
Well. Tony, get your head out of the sand. In USA, race is forefront in all facets of life, at least from the point of view of the Black community. The African American has been at the receiving end of some ugly history that other communities don't even know about or refuse to acknowledge. Consequences of that ugly history are being felt everyday.

When you put someone behind a virtual wall in a ghetto (a reserve or a Bantustan for that matter), your problem is resolved; you don't have to see him anymore. Yet, his problem remains and is often compounded.

I go to the States all the time, and I've seen things I didn't like; I also realize why African Americans react as they do. Guess what? The media know the reality too. They just disclose it from time to time to those who are or have been sheltered from it.

The Williams sisters (among other African American stars) are instruments of pride, hope and achievements; specially achievements coming from innate talents that could have easily remained undeveloped, had the sisters’ parents not provided full support in less than favourable conditions.

Veenut
Jun 16th, 2006, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE] In fact, I wish that people had just delt with them as two more tennis players from the very beginning.

What is strange is that the Williams sisters were not the first black girls in tennis, or even the only black girls in tennis at the time they arrived in the sport. There were others already there and other black girls have come along since without their race becoming such an issue.

Some of the problems with the Williams sisters come from fans, in my opinion, but part of the problem has also been the media and the WTA itself, which played up the race of the Williams sisters in some kind of misguided effort to attract black TV views or perhaps attract more blacks into becoming tennis players.

Why misguided? Because tennis should be open to everyone and pretty much is.

They couldn't be treated like any other two tennis players because they aren't. Their story is remarkable, and achievements outstanding, therefore why shouldn't it be amplefied. I see nothing misguided about that. :confused:

The people who are misguided are those who have personal issues with race and try to mask it and pretend there isn't a problem. In tennis, as in any other venue when racism shows its ugly head it should be confronted and not be ignored. I strongly detest bigotry and will not tolerate it being overt or subtle. The Williams sisters are not the cause for peoples bigotry and neither are their fans resposible. Place the blame where it belongs and that is on each misguided individual who chooses express their bigotry.

BTW in response to the thread, I'll give you a hint: The Williams fans base is not one to mess with. They have very strong opinions and are not afraid to express them.

Denise4925
Jun 16th, 2006, 09:10 PM
I completely understand your post because I feel the same way. I think some WS fans are looking for trouble and since they really don't find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then they can brand people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting but I think they find it normal.... must be like that in their normal lives too. Glad I don't have that kind of life. I adore V&S but have a double perspective of them now... my old perspective and the one formed in reaction to these so called fans. It's a shame because they are creating what they proclaim to be fighting against.

Fortunately, not all WS fans are this way, most are not. :wavey:
:retard:

Translated...I think some black people are looking for trouble, and since they don't really find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then the black people can brand white people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting, but I think they find it normal...must be like that in their normal lives too. I'm glad I'm not black. I adore V&S, because they are not like those black people and because some of my best friends are black. However, I have to look at them from a different perspective now because of those bad black people. It's a shame, because if they would stay in their place, people wouldn't have to hate them because they are black.

Fortunately and maybe unfortunately for you because you can't brand us all the same or even some of us, a lot of WS fans are not black. So that flies in your argument that "some WS fans" brand you as racist or were you only referring to the black WS fans as "some WS fans" in your post?

Denise4925
Jun 16th, 2006, 09:12 PM
You are judgmental. And you are wrong. Two things no one I know would be proud of. The problem with people like yourself is you put yourself on a level where you think you have the right to say anything - especially anything negative, and when another fan questions you or is just as strong in their opinion, you tuck your tail, run, and cry foul. You can't take what you give out and you are the weaker for that. Don't put that off on others, it's all on you. Your life must suck since you settle for being so obnoxious.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

slydevil6142
Jun 16th, 2006, 11:02 PM
Regardless of what people may say NOW about either sister... I got to watch 3 years of PURE AND UTTER DOMINATION .... thats why the haters came.... and thats why they will always be around.

tennislover
Jun 16th, 2006, 11:12 PM
....simply because the Williams sisters are not normal..... :D

Rocketta
Jun 17th, 2006, 12:13 AM
cry me a f^cking river! :sobbing:

If you're not grown enough to handle conflict then too bad, see ya when you get a little older. :rolleyes:

oh and I'm pissed because a certain someone who posted a one sentence smart alecki answer hasn't sent me any one sentence pm's in a while. :fiery:

Justine Fan
Jun 17th, 2006, 12:47 AM
[QUOTE=TonyP]

They couldn't be treated like any other two tennis players because they aren't. Their story is remarkable, and achievements outstanding, therefore why shouldn't it be amplefied. I see nothing misguided about that. :confused:

The people who are misguided are those who have personal issues with race and try to mask it and pretend there isn't a problem. In tennis, as in any other venue when racism shows its ugly head it should be confronted and not be ignored. I strongly detest bigotry and will not tolerate it being overt or subtle. The Williams sisters are not the cause for peoples bigotry and neither are their fans resposible. Place the blame where it belongs and that is on each misguided individual who chooses express their bigotry.

BTW in response to the thread, I'll give you a hint: The Williams fans base is not one to mess with. They have very strong opinions and are not afraid to express them.

And what is that quote supposed to do? Frighten the non-Williams fans :rolleyes:

Ooh I'm shaking in my boots :haha: :haha:

And the WS's and their fans wonder why they are disliked :rolleyes: when they make statements like that! :rolleyes:

Rocketta
Jun 17th, 2006, 01:17 AM
[QUOTE=Veenut]

And what is that quote supposed to do? Frighten the non-Williams fans :rolleyes:

Ooh I'm shaking in my boots :haha: :haha:

And the WS's and their fans wonder why they are disliked :rolleyes: when they make statements like that! :rolleyes:

actually the majority of Williams fans could give a rat's ass if they are liked or not isn't that the point of this whiny thread? Isn't that what really grates on your nerves? :wavey:

Justine Fan
Jun 17th, 2006, 01:29 AM
[QUOTE=Justine Fan]

actually the majority of Williams fans could give a rat's ass if they are liked or not isn't that the point of this whiny thread? Isn't that what really grates on your nerves? :wavey:

Nope!

Couldn't they? :haha: :haha:

If they couldn't give a rat's ass, why are they so defensive then? :p

Rocketta
Jun 17th, 2006, 01:48 AM
[QUOTE=Rocketta]

Nope!

Couldn't they? :haha: :haha:

If they couldn't give a rat's ass, why are they so defensive then? :p

They're not defensive....It's called not putting up with no shit. People who love to dish it but can't take then decide to hide behind the "why are you so defensive" wall instead of signing up for the "mind my own business" brigade or at least join the "I'm going to talk shit so I will expect shit back" class are pretty much chicken shits. :wavey:

Pureracket
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:30 AM
[QUOTE=Justine Fan]

They're not defensive....It's called not putting up with no shit. People who love to dish it but can't take then decide to hide behind the "why are you so defensive" wall instead of signing up for the "mind my own business" brigade or at least join the "I'm going to talk shit so I will expect shit back" class are pretty much chicken shits. :wavey::worship::worship::worship::worship::worshi p:

Denise4925
Jun 17th, 2006, 05:04 AM
[QUOTE=Veenut]

And what is that quote supposed to do? Frighten the non-Williams fans :rolleyes:

Ooh I'm shaking in my boots :haha: :haha:

And the WS's and their fans wonder why they are disliked :rolleyes: when they make statements like that! :rolleyes:
Do Justine's fans wonder why they are disliked :devil:

kosmikgroove
Jun 17th, 2006, 05:23 AM
I'm just wondering why is it that if someone makes a post about the Williams sisters, especially Venus nowdays, it always seems so damn controversial no matter what is said? People get so serious and lash out at the thread starter, even if it's not their intentions.

For example, if someone posts "Venus played awful today", Venus' fans go out of control, and nuts on the board, when its simply a fact.. Sometimes she does play awful.

And on the flip side, if theres a post saying "Venus Williams is an awesome player the vee haters always get nuts and say she's not worthy and many people could kick her ass, and that the thread starter is a "troll"? Not everyone is here to start controversy, some people just like to state what they think, and legitimately ask questions!

i think you answered your own question.

When some people "discuss" and respond to your threads, they are most likely stating what they legitimately believe to be true. Sometimes their answers may seem out of line or biased, but that comes with the territory of fan bases and the anonymity of the internet.

I think your real question should be aimed at why WTAWORLD seems to breed teenage misguided aggression. Not one fan base (certainly not only the Williams Sisters Fans) are the proprietor of such ignorant chatter.

Hachiko
Jun 17th, 2006, 07:30 AM
Exactly, I don't often post about them because I know I will be hit by their fans with criticism for something even slightly offensive.

drake3781
Jun 17th, 2006, 12:51 PM
To the people who answered me, I don't understand you. I read your words but your thoughts make no sense to me. I guess that's what makes the world go round, as my mom used to say.

louisa2k2
Jun 17th, 2006, 01:11 PM
williams fans have always been bad with handling criticism and well so are us hingis fans ill admit it. If you are really a fan then u dont like anything bad said about your fave player. But i remeber all the arguments i used to have with williams fans wen i first joined the board it did make it intresting.

but ill be honest i dont like the williams sisters , cant deny their good players but i dont like their attitude. They play when they feel like it and serena can turn into hypercondriac at any given moment like being ill in the quaters of every grandslam in 2001? somehow i dont beleive it. Also i dont find power tennis interesting to watch and venus especially can be very erratic and hit heaps of errors.

When i first started watching tennis the end of 2000 , i wasnt a fan of any particular player but venus and serena didnt play hardly any of the tournaments and the one tourny i saw serena in she quit the match saying she was injured. Martina was playing all the time and lindsay and martina won 4 titles so i got to see her play a lot and her character and the way she played just had me hooked. the only time ive seen martina retire is when she was carried off on a stretcher.

hingis-seles
Jun 17th, 2006, 01:32 PM
You know the board is in transition between Roland Garros and Wimbledon when...

louisa2k2
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:31 PM
lol its true hingis-seles :p

join in its fun

TonyP
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:34 PM
"Well. Tony, get your head out of the sand. In USA, race is forefront in all facets of life, at least from the point of view of the Black community."


And perhaps that is the problem, right there. The issue that is at the "forefront" for black Americans, is not the major issue for most other people.
-----------------------------------

"The people who are misguided are those who have personal issues with race and try to mask it and pretend there isn't a problem."


And there lies the rest of the problem ---assuming that anyone who does not like Venus and Serena must have personal issues with race. Long before Venus and Serena came along, I did not like a player named Steffi Graf. Yet nobody ever accused me of being anti-German for not liking Steffi.

hingis-seles
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:49 PM
lol its true hingis-seles :p

join in its fun

Oh alright.

FEARLESS QUEEN VEE RULEZZ!!!~~~~ :mad: LYING, CHEATING, FABRICATING, TROLLS, HATERZZZZ~~ :fiery: RACISTS!!!111~~

Posts like that are why people can not talk normally about the Williams Sisters.

hingis-seles
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Let's not forget these:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935890&postcount=71

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935932&postcount=74

Pureracket
Jun 17th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Let's not forget these:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935890&postcount=71

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935932&postcount=74. . . or this:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=8270058#post8270058

Infiniti2001
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:03 PM
. . . or this:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=8270058#post8270058


:yeah: :wavey:

Angelnoir
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:17 PM
I never understand why some fans are obsessed with players they dislike/hate

hingis-seles
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:45 PM
. . . or this:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=8270058#post8270058

What you just provided a link for is an example which supports the statement regarding why people can not discuss the Williams Sisters "normally". The reason why one cannot speak about them normally and has to make posts such as the one you provided the link for, is because of the posts I have quoted in my previous post. It's hard to have a discussion when the only feedback you get in response is something from Dawn Marie's limited vocabulary about how Wimbledon hates Venus Williams.

vwfan
Jun 17th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Let's not forget these:

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935890&postcount=71

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=7935932&postcount=74sweetie, the fact is that Wimbledon did in fact give a point to Sprem! did that not happen?! is Venus not the most accomplished active player in recent Wimbledon history? has this same tournament not artifically seeded roddick and henman? those are all facts.

leave me out of this discussion.

i don't imply racism, if that's your point. i don't come on this board to discuss race--a useless enterprise anyway. :rolleyes: but i will call it when I see it. if i had to characterize the difference in treatment, however, that was the subject of that thread i would call it sexism--in line with the unequal pay issue.

hingis-seles
Jun 17th, 2006, 06:38 PM
sweetie, the fact is that Wimbledon did in fact give a point to Sprem! did that not happen?! is Venus not the most accomplished active player in recent Wimbledon history? has this same tournament not artifically seeded roddick and henman? those are all facts.

leave me out of this discussion.

i don't imply racism, if that's your point. i don't come on this board to discuss race--a useless enterprise anyway. :rolleyes: but i will call it when I see it. if i had to characterize the difference in treatment, however, that was the subject of that thread i would call it sexism--in line with the unequal pay issue.

No one was talking about your post nor was anyone making you a part of this discussion. It was Dawn Marie's assertion that there is cheating in the sport of tennis "on all levels" from draws to ranking systems to umpires amongst her ranting and raving that made discussing the Williams Sisters normally with her impossible.

vwfan
Jun 17th, 2006, 06:41 PM
No one was talking about your post nor was anyone making you a part of this discussion. It was Dawn Marie's assertion that there is cheating in the sport of tennis "on all levels" from draws to ranking systems to umpires amongst her ranting and raving that made discussing the Williams Sisters normally with her impossible.ok. carry on then. :lol:

"Topaz"
Jun 17th, 2006, 07:41 PM
"Well. Tony, get your head out of the sand. In USA, race is forefront in all facets of life, at least from the point of view of the Black community."

And perhaps that is the problem, right there. The issue that is at the "forefront" for black Americans, is not the major issue for most other people.Ahhh!... Your head is really deep in the sand, which smacks of plain derision and flagrant insensitivity. Who do you think is generally holding the low end of the stick?... On the other side of the coin, what do I care if I'm the majority and the one running the show and doing the kicking?

Fortunately, things are changing a bit. Actually, I thought things were further along until I saw how New Orleans, post Katrina, was carelessly handled. BTW, that place is still... anyway.

Also I don't find power tennis interesting to watch and venus especially can be very erratic and hit heaps of errors.
If so, why do you proudly show Petrova and Vaidisova in your sig?

Veenut
Jun 17th, 2006, 09:33 PM
"The people who are misguided are those who have personal issues with race and try to mask it and pretend there isn't a problem."

And there lies the rest of the problem ---assuming that anyone who does not like Venus and Serena must have personal issues with race. Long before Venus and Serena came along, I did not like a player named Steffi Graf. Yet nobody ever accused me of being anti-German for not liking Steffi.[/QUOTE

OH please! For the most part, few if any make such assumption. I judge by what is stated by individuals. You certainly can't deny that there are several posters that dislike them based on race. They have made several posts laden with racist overtures, that you may choose to ignore or be silent about but this does not negate the fact that such individuals exist on this board and in tennis is general.

Infiniti2001
Jun 17th, 2006, 09:36 PM
[QUOTE=TonyP-----------------------------------



OH please! For the most part, few if any make such assumption. I judge by what is stated by individuals. You certainly can't deny that there are several posters that dislike them based on race. They have made several posts laden with racist overtures, that you may choose to ignore or be silent about but this does not negate the fact that such individuals exist on this board and in tennis is general.

He is one of them :tape: :wavey:

Veenut
Jun 17th, 2006, 09:39 PM
You know the board is in transition between Roland Garros and Wimbledon when...

I know!! Note the name that is almost always used to generate the most discussions during such times. Well the media does it too so why shouldn't we .....

Rocketta
Jun 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
What you just provided a link for is an example which supports the statement regarding why people can not discuss the Williams Sisters "normally". The reason why one cannot speak about them normally and has to make posts such as the one you provided the link for, is because of the posts I have quoted in my previous post. It's hard to have a discussion when the only feedback you get in response is something from Dawn Marie's limited vocabulary about how Wimbledon hates Venus Williams.

So what you're saying is that you are so weak minded that all people have to do is provoke you and others and there's nothing you can do but engage in the same behavior? :rolleyes:

Please, people act a fool because they want to and no other reason....Dawn doesn't control you or anyone else. Your sorry post in that thread was all your choice and your doing you should own up to it if you want to talk about other's irresponsibility. :rolleyes:

mirzalover
Jun 18th, 2006, 02:14 AM
[QUOTE]Why misguided? Because tennis should be open to everyone and pretty much is. What has kept out blacks in the US is the high cost of the sport, not any officials barriers any more. (show me some poor white girls who have succeeded in tennis without outside financial help. It simply doesn't happen.) And nobody has solved the financial barrier problem, although I am sure the USTA player development fund has tried so subsidize the training of some black players,

But why blacks and not American latinos or American Asians or native Americans.

if i hear one more person say that the high prce of tennis is what kept black out of tennis i'm gonna lose it.

i'm not fully black but when i got to tennis clubs believe me white people look at me funny and i've heard dont let that niggar beat you son and i've went to tournament and kicked plenty of people asses and all i hear when i'm winning is basically silence and as soon as the person i'm playing wins a point double fault ufe they clap and cheer come on and all other things so my point is its not the money that keeps us out its just that its mainly white people in the sport of tennis and that is just uncomfortable when your the only person of color around when you playing. and as for usta not having training for other races of people they do and a great example of that is in a native american tribe out west in america

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Well. Tony, get your head out of the sand. In USA, race is forefront in all facets of life, at least from the point of view of the Black community. The African American has been at the receiving end of some ugly history that other communities don't even know about or refuse to acknowledge. Consequences of that ugly history are being felt everyday.

When you put someone behind a virtual wall in a ghetto (a reserve or a Bantustan for that matter), your problem is resolved; you don't have to see him anymore. Yet, his problem remains and is often compounded.

I go to the States all the time, and I've seen things I didn't like; I also realize why African Americans react as they do. Guess what? The media know the reality too. They just disclose it from time to time to those who are or have been sheltered from it.

The Williams sisters (among other African American stars) are instruments of pride, hope and achievements; specially achievements coming from innate talents that could have easily remained undeveloped, had the sisters’ parents not provided full support in less than favourable conditions.
:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM
:retard:

Translated...I think some black people are looking for trouble, and since they don't really find it here, they have to create it whenever they can. Then the black people can brand white people haters and trolls and even racists. It's obnoxious and disgusting, but I think they find it normal...must be like that in their normal lives too. I'm glad I'm not black. I adore V&S, because they are not like those black people and because some of my best friends are black. However, I have to look at them from a different perspective now because of those bad black people. It's a shame, because if they would stay in their place, people wouldn't have to hate them because they are black.

Fortunately and maybe unfortunately for you because you can't brand us all the same or even some of us, a lot of WS fans are not black. So that flies in your argument that "some WS fans" brand you as racist or were you only referring to the black WS fans as "some WS fans" in your post?
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Denise4925 again."

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:44 AM
[QUOTE=Justine Fan]
Do Justine's fans wonder why they are disliked :devil:
No they don't. They know why they are disliked.:lol:

"Topaz"
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:53 AM
... I'm not fully black but when I got to tennis clubs believe me white people look at me funny and i've heard dont let that niggar beat you son and i've went to tournament and kicked plenty of people asses and all i hear when i'm winning is basically silence and as soon as the person i'm playing wins a point double fault ufe they clap and cheer come on and all other things so my point is its not the money that keeps us out its just that its mainly white people in the sport of tennis and that is just uncomfortable when your the only person of color around when you playing.
Sad story, Mirzalover! I hope you didn't give up tennis on account of this.

meyerpl
Jun 18th, 2006, 05:43 AM
This whole thread is a self-fulfilling prophecy, just like http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=241799 was.

I don't think VW fans are any more reactive than Masha fans, Serena fans, Dementieva fans, Myskina fans, or Justine fans. I think there are a lot of Venus fans, and that makes it seem more intense.

If I created a thread titled "Dementieva is the worst server in the top 100" I bet I'd get some people fired up.

Don't create threads meant to incite debate and then complain about it! It's stupid.

SF
I blew a gasket when I read this!!! I mean, I really flew off the handle! Myskina fans are not reactive, goddammit!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Denise4925
Jun 18th, 2006, 07:31 AM
I blew a gasket when I read this!!! I mean, I really flew off the handle! Myskina fans are not reactive, goddammit!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:
:lol:

meyerpl
Jun 18th, 2006, 08:12 AM
Well. Tony, get your head out of the sand. In USA, race is forefront in all facets of life, at least from the point of view of the Black community. The African American has been at the receiving end of some ugly history that other communities don't even know about or refuse to acknowledge. Consequences of that ugly history are being felt everyday.

When you put someone behind a virtual wall in a ghetto (a reserve or a Bantustan for that matter), your problem is resolved; you don't have to see him anymore. Yet, his problem remains and is often compounded.

I go to the States all the time, and I've seen things I didn't like; I also realize why African Americans react as they do. Guess what? The media know the reality too. They just disclose it from time to time to those who are or have been sheltered from it.

The Williams sisters (among other African American stars) are instruments of pride, hope and achievements; specially achievements coming from innate talents that could have easily remained undeveloped, had the sisters’ parents not provided full support in less than favourable conditions.
This is an excellent post. It needs no further comment, so here I go:

"I don't see what all the fuss is about race, I mean, it's never been a big deal to me. "
I imagine this sort of statement, coming from white Americans, has to leave black Americans shaking their heads. I mean, that's kind of like me, living in Wisconsin, saying, "What's all the fuss about Hurricane Katrina? It didn't seem like a big deal to me."
I'm white, so of course race is no big deal to me!

So, the Williams sisters are instruments of pride, hope and achievement for African Americans, and nobody likes to have their symbols of pride, hope and achievement denigrated or lampooned. Where a problem lies, is in the fact that in the world of sports fans, razzing, jeering, insulting and putting-down rivals is normal and accepted behavior. This means the table is set for hard feelings, and for people to exploit the fact that jeering and put-downs are accepted for there own nefarious reasons.
It's a situation where some people would do well to read the above post and ask themselves why they like to push and push and push the same buttons. If they were honest with themselves, they might not like the answer.

Jakeev
Jun 18th, 2006, 08:18 AM
Venus fans are nowhere near the way they used to be on this board and really for that matter, where worse on the old bold.

Occasionally, lizchris and cybelle get on their high horse but in general, Venus fans today are pretty damn cool to read posts from.

hingis-seles
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:17 PM
So what you're saying is that you are so weak minded that all people have to do is provoke you and others and there's nothing you can do but engage in the same behavior? :rolleyes:

Please, people act a fool because they want to and no other reason....Dawn doesn't control you or anyone else. Your sorry post in that thread was all your choice and your doing you should own up to it if you want to talk about other's irresponsibility. :rolleyes:

With certain posters (The ones who post nothing besides "FEARLESS QUEEN VEE RULEZZZ RACISTS UMPIRES!!111~"), there's no point in engaging in an intelligent discussion. It's fun to respond in like because it amuses me. :)

No need to get so angry. I was honestly, just providing a point of view for the discussion, which I'm not seriously participating in to begin with. You disagree. Fair enough. Let's move on. :)

Pureracket
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:21 PM
With certain posters (The ones who post nothing besides "FEARLESS QUEEN VEE RULEZZZ RACISTS UMPIRES!!111~"), there's no point in engaging in an intelligent discussion. It's fun to respond in like because it amuses me. :)

No need to get so angry. I was honestly, just providing a point of view for the discussion, which I'm not seriously participating in to begin with. You disagree. Fair enough. Let's move on. :)Yeah, you and the others will "move on" until the next "Williams" thread comes up, right?:D

Bounty Hunter
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:25 PM
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/musik/music-smiley-019.gif to this thread ...

hingis-seles
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Yeah, you and the others will "move on" until the next "Williams" thread comes up, right?:D

"Williams" or "Davenport" (is she pregnant or not?!) or "Hingis" or whoever. There are such few "Seles" threads! :mad: :sad:

Anyhow, I'm off for swimming lessons. If you want to continue this discussion, leave a message and I'll definitely get back to you. If not, I'm sure we'll bump into each other in some other thread. ;) :p

Have a nice day! :wavey:

Pureracket
Jun 18th, 2006, 01:26 PM
"Williams" or "Davenport" (is she pregnant or not?!) or "Hingis" or whoever. There are such few "Seles" threads! :mad: :sad:

Anyhow, I'm off for swimming lessons. If you want to continue this discussion, leave a message and I'll definitely get back to you. If not, I'm sure we'll bump into each other in some other thread. ;) :p

Have a nice day! :wavey:. . .and the proverbial "not standing the heat" happens. . .LOL!

TonyP
Jun 18th, 2006, 02:55 PM
"Ahhh!... Your head is really deep in the sand, which smacks of plain derision and flagrant insensitivity. Who do you think is generally holding the low end of the stick?... On the other side of the coin, what do I care if I'm the majority and the one running the show and doing the kicking?"

And so, all discussion of Venus and Serena and by implication, of tennis in general, must be shaped by your views on American race relations. But this is an international sport, not limited to play in America.

I can remember the 1997 bumping incident between Venus and Spirlea at the US Open. Some black posters said Irina should have known that American blacks no longer step out of the way for white people, because they used to be expected to step aside when walking down southern streets.

How the heck would a Romanian girl know about some obscure and racist regional custom in the United States?

Contrast this with the fact that most Americans know almost nothing about the customs of other people. In fact, most Americans would probably have trouble finding Romania on a map.

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:04 PM
I blew a gasket when I read this!!! I mean, I really flew off the handle! Myskina fans are not reactive, goddammit!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:
:lol:

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:08 PM
This is an excellent post. It needs no further comment, so here I go:

"I don't see what all the fuss is about race, I mean, it's never been a big deal to me. "
I imagine this sort of statement, coming from white Americans, has to leave black Americans shaking their heads. I mean, that's kind of like me, living in Wisconsin, saying, "What's all the fuss about Hurricane Katrina? It didn't seem like a big deal to me."
I'm white, so of course race is no big deal to me!

So, the Williams sisters are instruments of pride, hope and achievement for African Americans, and nobody likes to have their symbols of pride, hope and achievement denigrated or lampooned. Where a problem lies, is in the fact that in the world of sports fans, razzing, jeering, insulting and putting-down rivals is normal and accepted behavior. This means the table is set for hard feelings, and for people to exploit the fact that jeering and put-downs are accepted for there own nefarious reasons.
It's a situation where some people would do well to read the above post and ask themselves why they like to push and push and push the same buttons. If they were honest with themselves, they might not like the answer.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to meyerpl again."
:worship::worship::worship::worship::worship:

mykarma
Jun 18th, 2006, 03:12 PM
"Ahhh!... Your head is really deep in the sand, which smacks of plain derision and flagrant insensitivity. Who do you think is generally holding the low end of the stick?... On the other side of the coin, what do I care if I'm the majority and the one running the show and doing the kicking?"

And so, all discussion of Venus and Serena and by implication, of tennis in general, must be shaped by your views on American race relations. But this is an international sport, not limited to play in America.

I can remember the 1997 bumping incident between Venus and Spirlea at the US Open. Some black posters said Irina should have known that American blacks no longer step out of the way for white people, because they used to be expected to step aside when walking down southern streets.

How the heck would a Romanian girl know about some obscure and racist regional custom in the United States?

Contrast this with the fact that most Americans know almost nothing about the customs of other people. In fact, most Americans would probably have trouble finding Romania on a map.
:tape:

hingis-seles
Jun 18th, 2006, 07:16 PM
. . .and the proverbial "not standing the heat" happens. . .LOL!

How was I "not standing the heat" when you were the one who chose to ignore the following response of mine?

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=8327566&postcount=54

Though, I guess having to deal with logic and common sense must have been an alien concept considering you keep company with the likes of Dawn Marie and lizchris.

louisa2k2
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:11 PM
How was I "not standing the heat" when you were the one who chose to ignore the following response of mine?

http://www.wtaworld.com/showpost.php?p=8327566&postcount=54

Though, I guess having to deal with logic and common sense must have been an alien concept considering you keep company with the likes of Dawn Marie and lizchris.

:rolls: :clap2: :yeah:

ico4498
Jun 19th, 2006, 04:47 PM
the only time ive seen martina retire is when she was carried off on a stretcher.

yah missed a few years

saki
Jun 19th, 2006, 05:10 PM
I think Venus and Serena crystallise a lot of issues somehow.

There is a lot of implicit racism coming from commentators/fans and you don't have to be a fan to see it. I remember once watching a match between Serena and Kim in a university common room and no fewer than four people passing through said things along the lines of "wow that poor little Belgian getting overpowered by someone as muscular as Serena". Hmmm. Kim, especially back then, was barely if at all smaller than Serena. Commentators sometimes in the same sentence will compliment players like Nicole/Maria/Lindsay on so-called 'touch' or 'finesse' shots while denigrating Venus or Serena for tough, powerful, error-strewn tennis. I don't leap to the 'it's racism conclusion' generally (I'm brown, live in the U.K. and wouldn't say that I've ever experienced racism) but, honestly, it's hard to put that kind of comment down to anything other than implicit, subconscious, racism.

There is also a certain amount of sexism generally with commentating/reporting on the WTA as opposed to the ATP (and womens' sport generally) which often comes up particularly with regards to Venus/Serena. The article on Venus which is on the first page of GM at the moment, for example, asks why she doesn't have friends on the tour other than Serena. WTF? Why does that kind of thing matter? ATP players don't get snide comments about their friendships on tour, they don't get criticism for being 'cold' for not being best buds with every rival they have, why do WTA players? A male player is 'competitive' or 'determined', a female players is 'arrogant' or a 'bitch'. The WTA players just plain don't get treated as the professionals that they are. It comes up with other players too - like Justine - but, over the years, it's been particularly pointed towards Venus and Serena.

Lastly, because the above two issues rankle so much with fans, it becomes difficult to take a position that isn't characterised as hate if you're not a Williams fan. I think what Venus and Serena have done is incredible and impressive and they are great role models for their community. But I still don't like watching Venus play and I only enjoy Serena in some matchups. It's hard to express that view on here, though, without antagonising Williams' fans.

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Lastly, because the above two issues rankle so much with fans, it becomes difficult to take a position that isn't characterised as hate if you're not a Williams fan. I think what Venus and Serena have done is incredible and impressive and they are great role models for their community. But I still don't like watching Venus play and I only enjoy Serena in some matchups. It's hard to express that view on here, though, without antagonising Williams' fans.

Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.

Each individual is free to view who or what style they prefer but my strong objection, is when anyone tries to denigrade or discredit my preference. I much prefer offence in all sports, therefore those who create and make winning plays are much favored for me than defensive players. Therefore we differ, so what? The conflict begins when there is an infringement upon my rights.

We are entitled to enjoy differences but that gives no one the right to disparage my preferences and I refuse to allow anyone to get away with it.

saki
Jun 19th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.



Yup. I mentioned that as happening even with so-called professional commentators/journalists. To hear many of them talk you would assume, without seeing any matches, that players like Kim or Maria are delicate little flowers who spend most of their time playing finnese tennis. :rolleyes:

I like attacking players too but I like variety in attack and I find bad technique off-putting to watch. But I also like variety on the tour - if everyone played like Justine, I'd be bored.

tennisfan2480
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Ok, I'm new here. So, here is my opinion/feelings of the Williams sisters ...

When they were in their hay day (late 90's til 2003ish) ... they were pretty unbeatable, especially deep into majors. And a lot of poeple who were fans of women who WEREN'T the Williams sisters ... hated the Williams sisters because they always beat their faves (Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, Henin-Hardenne, Mauresmo, Players a,b,c,d and e, etc).

NOW, when they are NOT winning and/or injured and/or out of shape, and.or lack match play ... everybody wants them BACK and WINNING again.

Personally, I like their intensity, I like their game, I like some of their strokes, and I like how every match they are in becomes an 'occasion'.

Personality-wise ... sometimes I find them sweet, earnest, honest and likeable.

And then the next time I see them ... there is something they are saying, wearing, or doing that is revolting.

So ... they are kind of polarizing for me. Does anybody really like them at some points (rooting for them), and then at other points, wants someone to blow them right off the court????

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:10 PM
This is an excellent post. It needs no further comment, so here I go:

"I don't see what all the fuss is about race, I mean, it's never been a big deal to me. "
I imagine this sort of statement, coming from white Americans, has to leave black Americans shaking their heads. I mean, that's kind of like me, living in Wisconsin, saying, "What's all the fuss about Hurricane Katrina? It didn't seem like a big deal to me."
I'm white, so of course race is no big deal to me!

So, the Williams sisters are instruments of pride, hope and achievement for African Americans, and nobody likes to have their symbols of pride, hope and achievement denigrated or lampooned. Where a problem lies, is in the fact that in the world of sports fans, razzing, jeering, insulting and putting-down rivals is normal and accepted behavior. This means the table is set for hard feelings, and for people to exploit the fact that jeering and put-downs are accepted for there own nefarious reasons.
It's a situation where some people would do well to read the above post and ask themselves why they like to push and push and push the same buttons. If they were honest with themselves, they might not like the answer.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to meyerpl again.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Denise4925
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:14 PM
yah missed a few years
:rolls: :clap2: :yeah:

Veenut
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Yup. I mentioned that as happening even with so-called professional commentators/journalists. To hear many of them talk you would assume, without seeing any matches, that players like Kim or Maria are delicate little flowers who spend most of their time playing finnese tennis. :rolleyes:

I'm glad that you are able to recognize such incosistent comments and that fans of the sisters are not a bunch of irrational people, but most of the time we have legitimate concerns.

I like attacking players too but I like variety in attack and I find bad technique off-putting to watch. But I also like variety on the tour - if everyone played like Justine, I'd be bored.

It's all good that the tour has something for everyone. My wish is just to enjoy who I love, play without the biased and prejudiced opinion of others. Frankly it doesn't bother be at all that some people don't like my fav for what ever reason but I do expect some amount of objectivity especially from commentators.

Anyway, I'm lookig forward to Wimbledon and if my girl wins, I will be celebrating mercilessly. If she doesn't then my heart will be sad for a couple days, then I'll move on. Enjoy!!

saki
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:30 PM
It's all good that the tour has something for everyone. My wish is just to enjoy who I love, play without the biased and prejudiced opinion of others. Frankly it doesn't bother be at all that some people don't like my fav for what ever reason but I do expect some amount of objectivity especially from commentators.

Anyway, I'm lookig forward to Wimbledon and if my girl wins, I will be celebrating mercilessly. If she doesn't then my heart will be sad for a couple days, then I'll move on. Enjoy!!

It's definitely the commentators that piss me off the most because I kind of feel that they're paid to be objective and, yet, they really aren't. Apart from anything else, if we didn't have different styles of tennis on tour, we wouldn't have interesting matches to watch. So, personal preference aside, I'm glad that all the top players do their thing.

meyerpl
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:51 PM
It's all good that the tour has something for everyone. My wish is just to enjoy who I love, play without the biased and prejudiced opinion of others. Frankly it doesn't bother be at all that some people don't like my fav for what ever reason but I do expect some amount of objectivity especially from commentators.

Anyway, I'm lookig forward to Wimbledon and if my girl wins, I will be celebrating mercilessly. If she doesn't then my heart will be sad for a couple days, then I'll move on. Enjoy!!
I think this is how most people feel, unfortunately; there are a few people around here who seem to enjoy the failures of players they don't support and the heartache of other fans.

meyerpl
Jun 19th, 2006, 08:58 PM
It's definitely the commentators that piss me off the most because I kind of feel that they're paid to be objective and, yet, they really aren't. Apart from anything else, if we didn't have different styles of tennis on tour, we wouldn't have interesting matches to watch. So, personal preference aside, I'm glad that all the top players do their thing.
I think at one time, there was an expectation that commentators remain objective, but I don't think so anymore. I think now, they're paid to generate interest and improve ratings. I think now, they feel the need to be provocative and controversial.

louisa2k2
Jun 20th, 2006, 09:58 AM
williams have always played up the race thing - the reason people dont like them is because of their attitude. Just look at the reasons i gave in the other post , so often if they think there gonna lose then they pretend to be injured, if that doesnt distract their oponent enough they retire. there not the only ones who do it and i dont like any of the players who behave like this. ne way gonna stop before i get into rant mode.

on the maria sharapova thing, i dont really like her style of play but have no problems with her attitude. and well beating serena in the wimbledon final was enough to make me like her. i was getting so bored of all williams finals.

There is always gonna be some rivalry between williams and hingis fans its always been that way, weve calmed down a lot.

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:34 PM
williams have always played up the race thing - the reason people dont like them is because of their attitude.

You people (and Yes, I mean "you" people who
choose/prefer not to see anything) are so full of it!
I love how because these people don't see racism
or haven't seen it for the Sisters somehow means
it did not happen. And then have the nerve to cop
attitudes when it's mentioned!

Yes, "race" is nothing more than a card that has
been used to help those slavemaster bacls beatdown
on the white man and the native americans that is still
seeing some residules even today.

BOT,

One needs only look at the simplest of threads and articles on either
sister from their many charity efforts, their off courts business, ect...
to see how fast hating trolls clutter it up with garbage. It's like clockwork.

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:54 PM
williams have always played up the race thing - the reason people dont like them is because of their attitude. Just look at the reasons i gave in the other post , so often if they think there gonna lose then they pretend to be injured, if that doesnt distract their oponent enough they retire. there not the only ones who do it and i dont like any of the players who behave like this. ne way gonna stop before i get into rant mode.

on the maria sharapova thing, i dont really like her style of play but have no problems with her attitude. and well beating serena in the wimbledon final was enough to make me like her. i was getting so bored of all williams finals.

There is always gonna be some rivalry between williams and hingis fans its always been that way, weve calmed down a lot.


Uh who are you trying to convince? :shrug: Get over yourself already :rolleyes: You claim you've been watching tennis from the end of 2000- I dare you to mention an instance where the Williames have played the so-called race thing :rolleyes: Typical poster who listens to the BS others says without any proof :smash:

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Uh who are you trying to convince? :shrug: Get over yourself already :rolleyes: You claim you've been watching tennis from the end of 2000- I dare you to mention an instance where the Williames have played the so-called race thing :rolleyes: Typical poster who listens to the BS others says without any proof :smash:

Right on!

Just another reason these type of people
use to justify the bs they spout!

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Uh who are you trying to convince? :shrug: Get over yourself already :rolleyes: You claim you've been watching tennis from the end of 2000- I dare you to mention an instance where the Williames have played the so-called race thing :rolleyes: Typical poster who listens to the BS others says without any proof :smash:
:lol: So true. You can spot'em a mile away. So transparent. :lol:

Wannabeknowitall
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.



Uh Huh. Where's the proof? Do you have posters names and their posts that show the inconsistencies? Until you do I find this post to be a load of :bs: .

Paneru
Jun 20th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Uh Huh. Where's the proof? Do you have posters names and their posts that show the inconsistencies? Until you do I find this post to be a load of :bs: .

Oh no no no baby boy.
You are so much better
than this and you know it! :kiss:

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Uh Huh. Where's the proof? Do you have posters names and their posts that show the inconsistencies? Until you do I find this post to be a load of :bs: .
:lol: Wannabe, take your head out of the sand and open your eyes.

Wannabeknowitall
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:08 PM
:lol: Wannabe, take your head out of the sand and open your eyes.
What sand? All I see is light. Maybe it's you that's in the dark. :p

Infiniti2001
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:08 PM
:lol: Wannabe, take your head out of the sand and open your eyes.

it ain't in the sand my friend ---ass is more appropriate if you asked :tape:

Wannabeknowitall
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:15 PM
What ass? I'm looking in the mirror now and all I see is... ahhh. I guess it's possible. :p

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:38 PM
What sand? All I see is light. Maybe it's you that's in the dark. :p
Whatever. :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Jun 20th, 2006, 07:39 PM
it ain't in the sand my friend ---ass is more appropriate if you asked :tape:
:lol:

Veenut
Jun 20th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Uh Huh. Where's the proof? Do you have posters names and their posts that show the inconsistencies? Until you do I find this post to be a load of :bs: .

I have no desire to poove anything to you. I've adequately dealt with such posters as the need arise, therefore if you are not part of such group then move along. Calling my post BS doesn't validate your BS. Where is your coherent arguement to and proof to dispute my statements? If you have one let's hear it. I have no time BS like your above posts. :wavey:

louisa2k2
Jun 21st, 2006, 08:45 AM
see you can never get an actual answer out of a williams fan always the same. dont worry wannabeknowitall they know we are telling the truth thats why they have to answer with insults.

Look:-
Originally Posted by Veenut
Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.

it has nothing to do with race it only has to do with their attitude. plus Maria tends to be less erratic. the reason people dont like them is because the way they treat tennis, they play when they feel like it and have no prob withdrawing mid tournament, i can post the stats if you like. Eg. Indian wells - they say of course the fans were racist because they were booing, the reason they were upset is because they wanted to see the match, they were upset at the way they treated the tourney.

also i forgot hingis did retire one other time grandslam cup 98, against patty schnyder , wow thats so many i missed out!

Infiniti2001
Jun 21st, 2006, 02:15 PM
see you can never get an actual answer out of a williams fan always the same. dont worry wannabeknowitall they know we are telling the truth thats why they have to answer with insults.

Look:-
Originally Posted by Veenut
Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.

it has nothing to do with race it only has to do with their attitude. plus Maria tends to be less erratic. the reason people dont like them is because the way they treat tennis, they play when they feel like it and have no prob withdrawing mid tournament, i can post the stats if you like. Eg. Indian wells - they say of course the fans were racist because they were booing, the reason they were upset is because they wanted to see the match, they were upset at the way they treated the tourney.

also i forgot hingis did retire one other time grandslam cup 98, against patty schnyder , wow thats so many i missed out!




:yawn: You really need to try harder :rolleyes:

Veenut
Jun 21st, 2006, 06:10 PM
see you can never get an actual answer out of a williams fan always the same. dont worry wannabeknowitall they know we are telling the truth thats why they have to answer with insults.

Look:-
Originally Posted by Veenut
Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.

it has nothing to do with race it only has to do with their attitude. plus Maria tends to be less erratic. the reason people dont like them is because the way they treat tennis, they play when they feel like it and have no prob withdrawing mid tournament, i can post the stats if you like. Eg. Indian wells - they say of course the fans were racist because they were booing, the reason they were upset is because they wanted to see the match, they were upset at the way they treated the tourney.

also i forgot hingis did retire one other time grandslam cup 98, against patty schnyder , wow thats so many i missed out!




I deliberately ignored your post up to this point, because I found nothing valid in it to respond to until you quoted me. Please point out the insults in my quoted post. :confused: If you would engage your comprehension skills, you would discover that the poster I was responding to and I both came to a consensus on the issue being discussed.

I would strongly suggest that you focus more in your Language Arts classes and that would enable you to develop the skills to communicate better. If my 7 yr should at any time put out that mess you post, all summer he would be practicing basic writing skills. Frankly I'm quite disinterested in your like or dislike of the sisters. Posters like you just regurgitate the same lame story without logic or reason and I must confess I don't have the time, energy or patience for people of your ilk.

BTW in this post, you can legitimately complain about insults because it was intended. Now you can go :bigcry: to your buddies :baby:

louisa2k2
Jun 22nd, 2006, 02:43 PM
cry? i have no idea what the rambling meant in the last post other than the fact that even though you say your not gonna respond u do again and again. i know i shouldnt but i find this funny at the moment which is why i continue to post :)

all i can work out from ur last post is your saying my grammar is bad but and well theres nothing really to argue with their but somehow i managed to get a degree? who knows how a miracle from God it must be. But i am actually doing another course at Bible college and part of it is communication - maybe i will improve but i doubt it. as long as i can think faster than i type good look making sense of my posts :p
And commas? who pauses in their sentences not me!

also what is a language arts class never heard of that before? and im bein serious.

anyways this thread is boring when there is nothin to argue abt so cya!

louisa2k2
Jun 22nd, 2006, 02:45 PM
:yawn: You really need to try harder :rolleyes:

now who was it with their head in the sand :confused:

Paneru
Jun 22nd, 2006, 02:48 PM
Again, no matter how harmless or good natured
a thread is about them, trolls always come to try
and stri crap up like clockwork!

Veenut
Jun 22nd, 2006, 06:58 PM
cry? i have no idea what the rambling meant in the last post other than the fact that even though you say your not gonna respond u do again and again. i know i shouldnt but i find this funny at the moment which is why i continue to post :)

all i can work out from ur last post is your saying my grammar is bad but and well theres nothing really to argue with their but somehow i managed to get a degree? who knows how a miracle from God it must be. But i am actually doing another course at Bible college and part of it is communication - maybe i will improve but i doubt it. as long as i can think faster than i type good look making sense of my posts :p
And commas? who pauses in their sentences not me!

also what is a language arts class never heard of that before? and im bein serious.


anyways this thread is boring when there is nothin to argue abt so cya!

Are you learning English as a second language? If so, then I'll forgive your ignorance even though there are foundamentals that you should know and utilize even as a second language.

I don't think a degree is required in order to construct simple coherent sentences. Obviously your conprehension needs work also and that is what caused me to respond to you in the first place.

I ignored your post until you quoted my post and misrepresented what I said. There was nothing in my post that was insulting and the poster I was responding to apparently didn't find it insulting either, subsequently we went on to exchange our opinions in a civilized manner. You were the one who accused me of being insulting, therefore I responded with an insulting post to you, so you could note the difference. Hope you get it this time around because I'm done with you. I hate to belabor insignificant things. :wavey:

Bijoux0021
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE=Veenut]Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.QUOTE]

Excellent point! I've said the same thing many times. From reading tennis message boards, listening to commentators/critics, reading articles, etc...most of the Williams sisters' haters were using their "style of play/ball bashing/power tennis" as the #1 EXCUSE why they did not like or hated Venus and Serena. Then all of a sudden, the very same people fell in love with Maria Sharapova who has become the #1 ball basher in women's tennis. They don't see anything wrong with that. In addition, they never had any problem with Seles, Capriati, Davenport, Clijsters, etc. who are also power players.

As a matter of fact, Sharapova has made millions of dollars doing several commercials for Canon Camera glorifying her power/ball bashing tennis..."Make every shot a power shot!"

It's interesting that Venus and Serena were and still are crucified for their power play while Sharapova's celebrated.

Denise4925
Jun 22nd, 2006, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=Veenut]Your points are well taken, but the reasons why some Williams fans get irritated is due largely to the inconsistencies of some posters. For instance, the sisters are often villified for their style of play but Maria and company praised for similiar playing style, then what should one conclude from such logic. Obviously this causes one to become suspicious of your motives.QUOTE]

Excellent point! I've said the same thing many times. From reading tennis message boards, listening to commentators/critics, reading articles, etc...most of the Williams sisters' haters were using their "style of play/ball bashing/power tennis" as the #1 EXCUSE why they did not like or hated Venus and Serena. Then all of a sudden, the very same people fell in love with Maria Sharapova who has become the #1 ball basher in women's tennis. They don't see anything wrong with that. In addition, they never had any problem with Seles, Capriati, Davenport, Clijsters, etc. who are also power players.

As a matter of fact, Sharapova has made millions of dollars doing several commercials for Canon Camera glorifying her power/ball bashing tennis..."Make every shot a power shot!"

It's interesting that Venus and Serena were and still are crucified for their power play while Sharapova's celebrated.
Well said. :worship:

saki
Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:27 PM
Just to add to what I said before - I just rewatched the Justine-Jen 2003 U.S. Open SF and it's really striking just how the American crowds get behind Jen/Lindsay in contrast to how they cheer for Venus or Serena. I know Jen's from NY and so she's always going to get lots of support there but I don't think I've ever seen a crowd support Venus or Serena that much. The Wimbledon crowd seems fairly fond of Venus in particular but it's definitely weird that the American crowds don't support them. Even in Fed Cup..

Denise4925
Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:46 PM
Just to add to what I said before - I just rewatched the Justine-Jen 2003 U.S. Open SF and it's really striking just how the American crowds get behind Jen/Lindsay in contrast to how they cheer for Venus or Serena. I know Jen's from NY and so she's always going to get lots of support there but I don't think I've ever seen a crowd support Venus or Serena that much. The Wimbledon crowd seems fairly fond of Venus in particular but it's definitely weird that the American crowds don't support them. Even in Fed Cup..
It's not weird, it's disheartening and sad.

saki
Jun 22nd, 2006, 10:49 PM
It's not weird, it's disheartening and sad.

Absolutely. What I meant as being particularly weird is that, from what I remember anyway, Venus gets better support at Wimbledon than at the U.S. Open. That's fucked up.

venus_rulez
Jun 22nd, 2006, 11:04 PM
I'm black and I personally hate it that "racism" is used so much these days. It doesn't happen nearly as much as some black people would like to have you think and because every time a Black person is mistreated or there are questionable cirumstances in a situation racism is shouted, it's hard to get people to take it seriously. In saying that, racism does still happen and I think a lot of people think racism is being called the n word or not getting a job because you are Black. Racism comes in many forms and I do think Venus and Serena do get that from some fans of the game and the commentators. Venus and Serena came into tennis in a VERY unorthodox way. There was never any question that these two were black and proud of their heritage. The fact that they hardly played junior tennis, when virtually every other player who had ever made it had, and they were speaking of being number one and two ruffled a few feather for sure. Where the racism part comes in is, when Venus and Serena makes these comments they are stuck up, cocky, and arrogant. But Martina Hingis can call someone half a man and people find way to get her out of it. Oh, English isn't her first language or she didn't mean it in that way, That of course could be true, but the fact that people come to her defense shows that there already was some underlying resentment to Venus and Serena. On the flip side though, from day one Venus and Serena have never cared what people think outside of their circle. That's their right to do it, but if you're going to live life that way it's hard for their fans (and I'm one of Venus' biggest fans) to not wonder why there might be some people who aren't racist but would make disparaging comments towards them. In the end though, Venus and Serena don't have to say anything because their tennis, achievements, and their cash speak for themselves. Their fans feel the need to, because while Venus and Serena may have escaped racism through their success, it still is reality for many minorities around the world. Again, not as much as it used to be, but it is still an issue.

Denise4925
Jun 22nd, 2006, 11:36 PM
I'm black and I personally hate it that "racism" is used so much these days. It doesn't happen nearly as much as some black people would like to have you think and because every time a Black person is mistreated or there are questionable cirumstances in a situation racism is shouted, it's hard to get people to take it seriously. In saying that, racism does still happen and I think a lot of people think racism is being called the n word or not getting a job because you are Black. Racism comes in many forms and I do think Venus and Serena do get that from some fans of the game and the commentators. Venus and Serena came into tennis in a VERY unorthodox way. There was never any question that these two were black and proud of their heritage. The fact that they hardly played junior tennis, when virtually every other player who had ever made it had, and they were speaking of being number one and two ruffled a few feather for sure. Where the racism part comes in is, when Venus and Serena makes these comments they are stuck up, cocky, and arrogant. But Martina Hingis can call someone half a man and people find way to get her out of it. Oh, English isn't her first language or she didn't mean it in that way, That of course could be true, but the fact that people come to her defense shows that there already was some underlying resentment to Venus and Serena. On the flip side though, from day one Venus and Serena have never cared what people think outside of their circle. That's their right to do it, but if you're going to live life that way it's hard for their fans (and I'm one of Venus' biggest fans) to not wonder why there might be some people who aren't racist but would make disparaging comments towards them. In the end though, Venus and Serena don't have to say anything because their tennis, achievements, and their cash speak for themselves. Their fans feel the need to, because while Venus and Serena may have escaped racism through their success, it still is reality for many minorities around the world. Again, not as much as it used to be, but it is still an issue.
I understand what you're trying to say here, but I staunchly disagree with the bolded parts. I don't think that black people as a whole cry racism unnecessarily, as some want you to believe. Those who do that are a very, very small minority of black people as a whole. Just like every woman doesn't cry rape when it's unwarranted.

Also, I don't think Venus and Serena have escaped racism. I think they've faced it head on in many situations we can't even imagine. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't make it not a reality.

mykarma
Jun 22nd, 2006, 11:51 PM
I understand what you're trying to say here, but I staunchly disagree with the bolded parts. I don't think that black people as a whole cry racism unnecessarily, as some want you to believe. Those who do that are a very, very small minority of black people as a whole. Just like every woman doesn't cry rape when it's unwarranted.

Also, I don't think Venus and Serena have escaped racism. I think they've faced it head on in many situations we can't even imagine. Just because they don't talk about it, doesn't make it not a reality.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Denise4925 again.

dav abu
Jun 23rd, 2006, 12:18 AM
RobTheRusski - I agree with you completely, top thread!

Rexman
Jun 23rd, 2006, 12:21 AM
I think the fact there has been some deliberate race hatred for the sisters has made some of their fans more sensitive to any criticism.

Then people who don't care for the Williams because of game or personality or whatever see this and view it as over-reaction, so they become critical and the cycle continues.

Now we're just at a point where people are just so used to fighting battles, they don't know anything else.

louisa2k2
Jun 25th, 2006, 12:48 PM
I give up, its like talking to a brick wall!!!!!!

Then again, there is nothing new there!

hingis-seles
Jun 25th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Absolutely. What I meant as being particularly weird is that, from what I remember anyway, Venus gets better support at Wimbledon than at the U.S. Open. That's fucked up.

I remember watching the 2002 US Open semifinal between Venus and Amelie in shock, as the crowd was wildly rooting for Amelie while Venus was the one playing on home soil. It was almost as if they were playing at Roland Garros.

louisa2k2
Jun 26th, 2006, 05:45 AM
you must spread some good rep around before giving it to hingis-seles :(

Denise4925
Jun 26th, 2006, 05:33 PM
you must spread some good rep around before giving it to hingis-seles :(
:retard:

Bijoux0021
Jun 26th, 2006, 06:01 PM
I remember watching the 2002 US Open semifinal between Venus and Amelie in shock, as the crowd was wildly rooting for Amelie while Venus was the one playing on home soil. It was almost as if they were playing at Roland Garros.
It is a well known fact that Venus and Serena have always gotten more crowd support overseas than they do in America.

Yes it was so sad and embarrassing to watch that match. All those Americans were obviously proud of their actions. They were rooting very loudly for the French player, Amelie Mauresmo, to beat the American, Venus Williams. They didn't have any shame whatsoever.

pav
Jun 26th, 2006, 09:04 PM
You wouldn't catch me trying to root armourlee mauresmo:eek:

louisa2k2
Jun 28th, 2006, 08:19 AM
dont worry denise i am sufficiently bored with this now. I have a new reason for winding people up, I live in australia and they are out of the world cup. The dean of students at college didnt stop talking about how australia would beat brazil and win the world cup, so now i can wind him up :)

PLP
Jun 28th, 2006, 09:29 AM
HMM...I have been to the US Open a few times and both of the sisters get quite a lot of support, sure there may be times when the crowd is rooting for the other player, more than likely because they are the underdog, as both Vee and Serena have won NY several times each...

Jen isn't a New Yorker by any stretch. She was born there but she is a Floridian through and through...

I really hate this Hingis vs Williams thing. I don't understand why we still have to be devisive. Martina is obviously my fav but Venus is a close second and I always feel kind of sad when I get into a thread like this :sad:

Lastly, commentators tend to just over-generalize everyone, it's annoying for all the players IMO...they way they talk about Venus you would expect her never to be able to hit a dropshot or lob if her life depended on it, conversly, the way the talk about Hingis, you would expect her serve to average around 50MPH and her Groundies to fall limply over the net as only to be blasted away by 'power players'...aka, everyone else on tour...in truth, a player's arsenal is much more complex than just 'power' and 'finesse' and both Venus and Serena have complete games.