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View Full Version : Comparing Hingis to Henin Hardeene...


CaptnMatt
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:31 AM
I really want someone to explain to me why Hingis doesn't have the same level of power as Henin Hardeene....

My analysis of the game is that Henin Hardeene hits the ball extremely clean, and has great variety in her shots....but her shots dont have as much topspin, they're hit relatively flat when she's going for a winner etc.

However, I want to know why Hingis cant do this too. Martina hits the ball so loopy and with so much topspin all the time but she never just takes a big wack at the ball and flattens it out. Im not too sure why she doesn't work on this.....because it's something that I think she could do successfully....

Henin never had the power of the other girls, but in mid 2003 she decided that she needed to be able to strike the ball in that ''flat, hard'' way to win matches. And so she did it.

Hingis seems reluctant to change that bit of her game....I know that she has a greater margin for error when she hits the ball higher over the net....but if she mixed it up a little - hitting the ball flatter sometimes....I reckon it'd be more successful...yeh sure a few more errors, but with time, someone like Hingis could surely master the shot.

I dunno.....Henin just seems to have that extra bit of strength that Hingis doesn't have....they are both similar in height, weight, build etc. I just dunno why Henin seems so much stronger than Hingis?!?!?!?!?

Sorry if this seems like a stupid post, I just think that if Hingis could get that little bit more power from time to time, it would allow her to become elite again.

hdfb
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:37 AM
Do you know that Justine Henin-Hardenne knew that for her to be at the top, she would have to be really strong? And the way she got strong, was have a very very tough training sessions in the gym day in day out for a long period of time. It was after all that weight training that she seriously started to produce big results.

Martina has never done vigorous weight training of that sort, though, I agree, sometimes when the ball is sitting up for her, she still puts some spin on the ball rather than whacking it like most would do. Although, sometimes when she does try to whack it, she loses some of the control.

Zauber
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:38 AM
i agree Henin had more power.
But saying that Hingis hits the ball sloppy is just plain ignorance sorry.
There is more to playing tennis than hitting the ball flat and as hard as you can.
So far anyways.
Also that is all some women seem to do.
watch Mauresmo, Nadal, Federer and Hingis they do not his the ball sloppy.
crazy.

TonyP
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Hingis' game is not based on whacking the ball really hard --not based on power.

Her game centers around shot selection and placement.

It is yet to be decided who will wind up the most successful when the final chapter is written. So far, Justine has a long way to go to equal Martina's accomplishments. Martina's 209 weeks at number one are a lot more than what Justine has done in that realm, as are her accomplishment in doubles.`

bionic71
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:44 AM
A combination of greater physical strength and much heavier topspin.
The topspin Henin creates is far more damaging to opponents...it is a much heavier ball to return. Hingis does use topspin, but it is not as violently produced.

Henin is able to hit a harder flat ball for sure...however it is the deep heavy topspin that allows her to get the short return that she then finishes off with a put away flat drive.

Same for Clijsters....

Compare the backhands of Hingis and Clijsters as an example to illustrate...Both have topspin two handed backhands, yet in a cross court exchange Clijsters is able to push Hingis well behind the baseline because of the heavier topspin and create sharper angles....then finish off with the flat drive.

LoveFifteen
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:46 AM
Side note: he said loopy, not sloppy.

Reuchlin
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:48 AM
Justine also uses her body (read: legs) more. She throws herself at the ball...while Martina is a lot more wristy.

crazyroberto6767
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:51 AM
It seems a bit late to change Hingis' game a lot now. But anyways, I think Hingis knows the way she's probably going to be most successful is to be different. She's going to give you a different ball each time, and throw in shots most people on tour don't know what to do with. Hingis does hit the ball flat now. Just look at her backhand down the line. That shot is quite powerful, especially when compared to the rest of her game. It's just that she won't consistently hit a flat, hard ball because she won't win that way. She wins by mixing things up and hitting VERY few unforced errors. I honestly can't see the advantage of trying to overpower opponents :shrug:.

Gowza
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:55 AM
i'd say henin has spent alot more time with weights than martina. henin is probably stronger than hingis. i find the henin/hingis comparisons interesting but i think kirilenko has a similar type of game, similar build (thin, not really short but you wouldn't say she's tall).

and i agree that justine throws her body into it more than hingis. when justine changed her serve she put a lot more leg power into it, and when she goes for a winner off the ground she throws her whole body into the shot. but i do think hingis in her current state can still be more effective on court, her main problem isn't that she can't hit with decent power, it's that she won't. she grew up playing the percentages that's what her game was all about, and unless she is willing to give up those percentages more often and take a bit more risk in her game i don't think she's going to be able win slams.

Gowza
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:57 AM
It seems a bit late to change Hingis' game a lot now. But anyways, I think Hingis knows the way she's probably going to be most successful is to be different. She's going to give you a different ball each time, and throw in shots most people on tour don't know what to do with. Hingis does hit the ball flat now. Just look at her backhand down the line. That shot is quite powerful, especially when compared to the rest of her game. It's just that she won't consistently hit a flat, hard ball because she won't win that way. She wins by mixing things up and hitting VERY few unforced errors. I honestly can't see the advantage of trying to overpower opponents :shrug:.

agree, there is no point in her trying to overpower opponents because when it comes to the top players she just can't. and she does hit flatter now but she still needs to do it more often than she is doing, needs to go for the first serve more as well, it's more effective when she goes for it, and that gives her a better chance to work her way up the court or to get the upper hand so she can weild her magic.

CaptnMatt
Jun 8th, 2006, 05:08 AM
Side note: he said loopy, not sloppy.

Thanks lovefifteen....I definitely said ''loopy'' and not ''sloppy''

Hingis's groundstrokes are anything BUT sloppy.

I tend to agree that Hingis does have MORE power than what she used to.....but i really think she needs to approach things a bit more like Henin did in 2003 to get the Grand Slams again...thats more the point Im trying to discuss.

I'm not talking about abandoning her game (which involves percentages and placement) all together, but just to add some strength to her shots from time to time - atleast in some of the points, so that she can get the advantage......I felt that against Clijsters, this would have sometimes been a good option to have.

And I actually believe Hingis COULD do this....she's just got to WANT to.

PLP
Jun 8th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Thanks lovefifteen....I definitely said ''loopy'' and not ''sloppy''

Hingis's groundstrokes are anything BUT sloppy.

I tend to agree that Hingis does have MORE power than what she used to.....but i really think she needs to approach things a bit more like Henin did in 2003 to get the Grand Slams again...thats more the point Im trying to discuss.

I'm not talking about abandoning her game (which involves percentages and placement) all together, but just to add some strength to her shots from time to time - atleast in some of the points, so that she can get the advantage......I felt that against Clijsters, this would have sometimes been a good option to have.

And I actually believe Hingis COULD do this....she's just got to WANT to.

Martina just didn't play like herself against Kim. She has been more powerful this year and serving better., but not at all in that match I am very excited to see how Martina does on the grass as she always seems to play well on faster surfaces>P

Giggles
Jun 8th, 2006, 05:47 AM
Interesting discussion. I just want to throw a couple of disadvantages about Justine's power tennis. First, her shots are very demanding on her arm and shoulder muscles. Therefore, her kind of tennis often causes injuries including inflammations she suffered during Australian open. Second, lots of muscles are heavy and stiff, and therefore they may conflict with flexibility and quickness. Conclusion -- it is probably difficult for one player to have all: power, variety, few injuries, and speed.

xtooL
Jun 8th, 2006, 06:23 AM
I recall in her last match against Dementieva , We saw a lot of power shots from Martina, she can definately hit hard if she wanted to but its out of her comfort zone and she tends to miss sometimes ..im a power hitter but I find it hard to slow down the ball n hit it on a slower pace..same with her I guess ..Its a totally different game

hingisGOAT
Jun 8th, 2006, 06:58 AM
Compare the backhands of Hingis and Clijsters as an example to illustrate...Both have topspin two handed backhands, yet in a cross court exchange Clijsters is able to push Hingis well behind the baseline because of the heavier topspin and create sharper angles....then finish off with the flat drive.

:retard:

1) hingis' backhand is much better than clijsters', and she wins most backhand exchanges

2) hingis' backhand is usually hit very flat

bionic71
Jun 8th, 2006, 07:11 AM
:retard:

1) hingis' backhand is much better than clijsters', and she wins most backhand exchanges

2) hingis' backhand is usually hit very flat

....Polite little sausage aren't we....gotta love smilies!

Whilst Hingis may indeed flatten her backhand for a put away or a drive down the line...as most players do...her general rallying backhand is hit with topspin...for margin...she does not hit it flat all the time. It may be flatter than a Clijsters for example, but she gives it plenty of topspin for margin, depth and height over the net.

I would suggest that the Clijsters backhand is her biggest weapon against Hingis. One only has to watch their backhand to backhand exchanges from the QF this week to see that Clijsters is able to keep the ball deep and up very high...which takes Hingis out of her strike zone, as she prefers it just above waist height. Hingis has a great backhand, but the heavy topspin from the Clijsters backhand manages to neutralize it over the length of a match.

The thread was about Henin vs Hingis with regard to power and topspin. The Clijsters/Hingis examaple i used was to illustrate the advantage of excessive topspin (on clay especially) to set up the final winning put away.

I have no intention of arguing over who has a better backhand between Hingis/Clijsters.

Asif_Nawaz
Jun 8th, 2006, 07:21 AM
Well,Henin-Hardenne Knew that to be able to compete shes gonna have to have a lot of power in her groundstrokes,serve,etc.But Henin-Hardenne is anything but a power player,I mean sure she flattens the ball but shes not like ALG,Either,She doesnt hit amazingly fast powerful strokes all the time.In some ways Hingis and Henin have lots of similarities,Its just that even though Hingis has made extra-Ordinary progress in her comeback she still has some catching up to do,For example she lost to Clijsters 7-6(5),6-1,It was as if she dindt have enough firepower to continue her great level of play and her tenacity fizzled out.I hope this isnt looked at as a dumb Post but its just my opinion.

Asif:wavey:

hingisGOAT
Jun 8th, 2006, 08:03 AM
....Polite little sausage aren't we....gotta love smilies!

Whilst Hingis may indeed flatten her backhand for a put away or a drive down the line...as most players do...her general rallying backhand is hit with topspin...for margin...she does not hit it flat all the time. It may be flatter than a Clijsters for example, but she gives it plenty of topspin for margin, depth and height over the net.

I would suggest that the Clijsters backhand is her biggest weapon against Hingis. One only has to watch their backhand to backhand exchanges from the QF this week to see that Clijsters is able to keep the ball deep and up very high...which takes Hingis out of her strike zone, as she prefers it just above waist height. Hingis has a great backhand, but the heavy topspin from the Clijsters backhand manages to neutralize it over the length of a match.

The thread was about Henin vs Hingis with regard to power and topspin. The Clijsters/Hingis examaple i used was to illustrate the advantage of excessive topspin (on clay especially) to set up the final winning put away.

I have no intention of arguing over who has a better backhand between Hingis/Clijsters.

i wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about hingis based on one (incredibly sloppy) match. did you see their australian open quarterfinal? because hingis destroyed the clijsters' backhand in that match, so their FO match does not say much. hingis has the best backhand in the game, perhaps of all-time (this side of evert). it is kim's forehand that troubles hingis.

i also disagree that clijster's topspin has any damaging effect on hingis, because martina, especially on the backhand side, takes the ball extremely early. :confused: topspin doesn't push her behind the baseline like it does to other players

Carmen Mairena
Jun 8th, 2006, 08:14 AM
Very nice analysis people! Thanks! :kiss:

bionic71
Jun 8th, 2006, 09:03 AM
i wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about hingis based on one (incredibly sloppy) match. did you see their australian open quarterfinal? because hingis destroyed the clijsters' backhand in that match, so their FO match does not say much. hingis has the best backhand in the game, perhaps of all-time (this side of evert). it is kim's forehand that troubles hingis.

i also disagree that clijster's topspin has any damaging effect on hingis, because martina, especially on the backhand side, takes the ball extremely early. :confused: topspin doesn't push her behind the baseline like it does to other players

No "sweeping generalisations" whatsoever....it is an observation.

Yes, I saw the AO QF match...and the same can be said, although the Rebound Ace court allows Hingis to get into the court a little more as the ball does not bound up and race away as it does on clay.

The heavier topspin of Clijsters, especially on a clay court is what hurts Hingis the most. Obvioulsy, the Clijsters forehand is a huge weapon, but is also the side that makes most errors. The relentless heavy backhand topspin played deep into the backhand corner of opponents, allows her to tee off with the forehand for the final blow...it was the backhand that set the point up in the first instance.

I agree that Hingis has a fabulous backhand, probably second only to Evert as you suggest (I have said this many times on this board)...this was never in doubt. However, her strike zone (much like Everts) is just above waist. Topspin like that employed by Clijsters, Henin, Mauresmo et al will almost always be a match winning strategy against Hingis, especially on clay. I am not sure how you think this would not be the case.

The recent QF match was "sloppy" because Hingis simply ran out of options. She was being pinned into the backhand corner by the Clijsters backhand...kept high and out of her strike zone by the heavy topspin....eventually forcing a short reply which Clijsters could hammer away with a forehand. Her backhand, as great as it is, was taken out of the equation by the barrage of topspin from Clijsters.

Geez....I now see why I venture into General Messages so rarely.
Anyone else want to run with the baton....I am tired.

moby
Jun 8th, 2006, 09:15 AM
The recent QF match was "sloppy" because Hingis simply ran out of options. She was being pinned into the backhand corner by the Clijsters backhand...kept high and out of her strike zone by the heavy topspin....eventually forcing a short reply which Clijsters could hammer away with a forehand. Her backhand, as great as it is, was taken out of the equation by the barrage of topspin from Clijsters.Or, she wasn't in the best physical condition. Even then she did manage to play a very competitive set when she tried. The second set was very poor tennis from Martina and not representative of her usual play.

bionic71
Jun 8th, 2006, 09:23 AM
Or, she wasn't in the best physical condition. Even then she did manage to play a very competitive set when she tried. The second set was very poor tennis from Martina and not representative of her usual play.

Yep exactly....after having to return a set and a half worth of heavy topspin backhands, high and out of strike zone...Hingis certainly looked to be tired and was certainly a step slow. The tactic worked very well.

faste5683
Jun 8th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Better strength genes? Rumor has it that Justine's great, great, great, great grand-dad was once attacked by a huge bear while out picking berries. According to legend, great Grandpa (who was very small, even by Neanderthal standards) killed the bear with a lightweight club, swinging it with a peculair, one handed swing. As the tribe gathered around, staring in awe, the ancient Henin lifted his left hand in triumph...

:wavey:

rikvanlooy
Jun 8th, 2006, 12:37 PM
Geez....I now see why I venture into General Messages so rarely.
Anyone else want to run with the baton....I am tired.

No, you should to it a lot more.

It's very intelligent.

Most posters here think that a flat stroke is "better", "faster", "stronger" or "harder to return".

No, it's not the forehands/backhands of Sharapova/Dementieva/... which are the more difficult to return, it's the topspin balls of Henin/Clijsters/Serena/Kuzn.

There in lies a big difference with the men. Players like Nadal use an enormous amount of topspin, which means that their balls are very "heavy".

In fact Kim is probably the most talented of all the players (except for Serena, who has(d) a lot more power than her). The problem is that she doesn't really like to practice and she almost never listens to good advice.

Last year she got in shape and tried everything to win that first slam. Nobody came close to her. She utterly destroyed everybody.

Afterwards she went without a coach and was happy with the life she had. She got out of shape and wasn't really interested any more. She lost to players whom she owned completely.

It suprises me somewhat that she is again eager.

Still I find that she hasn't done everything to reach a great career.

bionic71
Jun 8th, 2006, 12:52 PM
No, you should to it a lot more.

It's very intelligent.

Most posters here think that a flat stroke is "better", "faster", "stronger" or "harder to return".

No, it's not the forehands/backhands of Sharapova/Dementieva/... which are the more difficult to return, it's the topspin balls of Henin/Clijsters/Serena/Kuzn.

There in lies a big difference with the men. Players like Nadal use an enormous amount of topspin, which means that their balls are very "heavy".


Hi there.
As a player myself I know how difficult it is to play against someone who hits with excessive topspin or heavy ball. It is thoroughly exhausting. I would much prefer to play against a hard flat hitter...at least the ball is in your hitting zone most of the time. If you can absorb the winners they hit, cut down your own unforced errors and keep moving well, then you are in with a chance against such a player.

If you are a player who has flatter strokes and enjoys a waist high hitting zone then it is physical torture to play against a heavy topspin player (especially on a clay or high bouncing hard court).

As you say...The players who will trouble Hingis most over the next few years are those like Mauresmo, Kuznetsova, Clijsters and Henin...those who use excessive topspin in the same way that the men do. These women are physically strong enough to do it and that is why they are so successful. The Williams sisters (when fit) will still win on brute power as well....however they will also have trouble with the high bounding topspin...but are able to cope better as they are physically stronger than Hingis.

No.1Hingis
Jun 8th, 2006, 03:51 PM
I just wanna to say.. Henin has a great form and is consistent at all.. is like timing.. Martina.. well.. I was pretty sure she could give more.. so much battle to Kim.. circunstances?.. ok.. doesnt matter.. Im sure Martina is going to improve a lot to final in Spain.. so.. and sure she would manage to win over Justine or anybody else.. but certainly whatever was the reason.. wasnt better time Thuesday...

Justine.. well.. she is a great and dominating player.. just I dont know.. I get little boring with her game.. just that...

Both great player.. differents OF COURSE... Will see if Martina finish year adaptating herself.. Yey! Henin is stronge but not overreact about it.. she is more tactical.. I guess.. thats a point Kim has to considerate..

nytrainer
Jun 8th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Henin is able to generate more power than hingis because; 1) henin is stronger, leaner and a better athlete and 2) henin has better technique- Henin has much greater racket head speed and more fluid strokes than hingis. Furthermore, she effectively puts her hips and legs into every shot. Whereas hingis uses alot of wrist and arm on the forehand. Hingis also needs to desperately work on her first and second serve.

To generate more power Hingis will have to step into her shots more. She is extremely talented. She can do it. With her improved fitness and strength she has actually been hitting the ball harder. (Her match against Davenport at Indian Wells shows that)...

She clearly didnt play that well against Clijsters due to the "bug" that she had. So you cant judge based on that performance.

Bottom line- Hingis can and has increased the power on her shots. The problem is that she needs to do it more consistently so that she can put the big hitters on the defensive. If she wants it bad enough she will continue to step into her shots and play more offensively. Only time will tell....

partbrit
Jun 8th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I think all Hingis needs is a serve. If she had a stronger first serve, and please--a decent second serve--she could compete with anyone.