View Full Version : Venus Williams vs Jelena Dokic

May 22nd, 2002, 07:59 PM
At 19 years and 4 months old Venus Williams had won

98 Oklahoma City (III)
98 Key Biscayne (I)
99 Oklahoma City (III)
99 Key Biscayne (I)
99 Hamburg (II)
99 Rome (I)
99 New Haven (II)
99 Zurich (I)

4 Tier I's
2 Tier II's
2 Tier III's

At 19 years and 1 month old Jelena Dokic has won

01 Rome
01 Moscow
01 Tokyo
02 Sarasota

2 Tier I's
1 Tier II's
1 Tier IV's

I could do the obvious mis-extrapolation, and claim this means Jelena will win half as many GS titles as Venus. But I won't. All I'll say is that a 19 year old who had already won a couple Tier I's seemed a shoe-in for GS titles a couple years ago. Right now, only injuries to others gets her a top eight seed at the Slams.

Times are tough.

There are at least nine players in the world as good or better than Jelena. That's not an indictment of Jelena, that's a compliment to the tour. But it's real hard to win a GS title in this environment, as everyone not named VenusJenn has noticed. Seems to me the record says Jelena has the talent and skill to win a GS title, but the number of other players with a similar level of skill and talent (or better) has grown.

May 22nd, 2002, 08:02 PM
I agree it has definetly gotten hard to win a grand slam. I think that goes for everyone, even the players in the top five. Jelena really does have the game though, but she's been plagued with injury this year. Actually I think she should take some time off and fully recover. She's keeps entering tournaments and having to forfit a match because she gets hurt. I think as she matures she will be more capable of winning a slam.

May 22nd, 2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Volcana
At 19 years and 4 months old Venus Williams had won...

4 Tier I's
2 Tier II's
2 Tier III's...

At 19 years and 1 month old Jelena Dokic has won...

2 Tier I's
1 Tier II's
1 Tier IV's...

There are at least nine players in the world as good or better than Jelena. .

I'm probably risking looking a bit nitpicking, but..
You have compared them at 2 different ages - if you took Venus' tourney wins from 19 years 1 month old, would there be less difference?
9 players better than Jelena for sure? 8 are above her in the rankings, if that's what you're going on.
Also, yes it is harder now...Venus didn't have to play a cartain Venus Williams (or her sister much?) lol. Saying that, some of the tourneys Jelena won were ones were Venus wasn't playing.

May 22nd, 2002, 08:09 PM
Jelena has played 30 tournies in the last 52 weeks. Way, waaaaay to many. Her body is going to break down big time. She will become a burnout. :eek:

May 22nd, 2002, 08:15 PM
I dont think that now, the way the tour is, that Jelena will ever win a Grand Slam. She's too inconsistant, losing to players she's much better then. If she wants to have any sort of impact on the tour, she needs to stop playing SO much. Playing week in and week out tires your body out, and apparently it's not paying off.

May 22nd, 2002, 08:41 PM
LozHippy - " ... as good or better ..."

You could include Amelie Mauresmo as the ninth, which I did. And if you take Venus at 19 years, 1 month, you drop Zurich 99 and New Haven 99, leaving her 3 Tier I's, 1 Tier II, and 2 Tier III's. My point, though, was that Jelena is clearly BETTER than the historical standard for being good enough to win a GS. I think this current group is THROWING the bar higher, they aren't just raising it.

Further, answer me this? Who's going to end the year ranked higher? Daniela Hantuchova or Jelena? Jelena is definitely defending a LOT more points.

May 22nd, 2002, 08:52 PM
I don't know enough about Daniella really to guess, but I'm confident Jelena will not be lower than 9 at the end of the year (without having to overtake anyone injured).

May 22nd, 2002, 10:30 PM
When Monica Seles was 19 years old and 4 months she had won 32 tournaments -- exactly 50% of the tournaments she had entered.
Including 8 Grand Slams!

May 23rd, 2002, 12:57 AM
Why in the world is anyone comparing
Venus to Dokic? I thought it's understood that
Venus and Serena are freaks on the WTA and
that whatever they have accomplished w/out any
work in Juniors is something 1 in a million.

Dokic's peer group is Eleni D, Cara Black, Katarina Srebotnik,
Jelena Kostanic, Deja Bedanova, Marta Marero. The class of 1998!!
If you include the Belgians and even add 1997 with
Nadja Petrova then Dokic's career still looks pretty good.


1) None of these players have won a grand slam.
2) They were rivals in Junior tennis.
3) The Belgians were the only ones to make it to a final
in a grand slam.
4) ED and Dokic are both Semi finalists at grand slams.
5) ED has not won a TIER 1 title yet.
6) Anna for that matter hasn't won a title; PERIOD~!~

Oh well. If your so bored with all the gloating then I suppose
you would try to diss players your not even too familiar with.

May 23rd, 2002, 01:07 AM
Greenout - MY reason for comparing Jelena and Venus was to use Venus as a standard. It had occurred to me that we make too little of Jelena's accomplishment, having been spoiled by Martina, Serena and Venus. By any normal historical measure in tennis, Jelena has had very good accomplishments for her age. accomplishments which, IMO, would, in the past, clearly have indicated a GS title or two in her future.

Oh wait, I missed the line Oh well. If your so bored with all the gloating then I suppose you would try to diss players your not even too familiar with.

You weren't trying for reason, or asking an actual question. You were just trying to be nasty. Succeeding too, I might add. Perhaps you didn't actually bother to read the initial post, and thus missed the line "...Seems to me the record says Jelena has the talent and skill to win a GS title...". Or maybe you disagree with my opinion of Jelena's talent. However, in the interest of maintaining the illusion that you know anything about tennis, keep your opinons to yourself, at least til you can reliably identify 'gloating' or 'dissing'.

Or not. Your choice.

You post however, makes you look like a fool. And one who can't read at that.

May 23rd, 2002, 01:11 AM
Gotta love that statistic mishar :).

Cybelle Darkholme
May 23rd, 2002, 01:14 AM
Ooooo Volcana you have such a masterful way of pointing out the ineptitude of others(greeny):bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

May 23rd, 2002, 06:37 AM
I also agree with Volcana...winning a Grand Slam ain't easy anymore. You think there is so much depth on the WTA Tour, and I suppose there is some...but the fact remains that only two women have won the last seven Slams. That's getting close to the streaks of Steffi/Monica and Chris/Martina.

As for Jelena, I think she does have the talent to win a Slam. The most likely one is Wimbledon. But...that's also the Slam where Venus is at her best. Jelena can win it, but it will be very tough.

Sam L
Aug 6th, 2002, 04:49 AM
I think in the last couple of years, mental toughness has become extremely important. Everyone has the skills, the fitness and ability but many falter in the big slam matches.

Jenn and Venus had the edge for almost two years, but now it looks like Serena has hit the top with her newfound mental toughness (especially when playing against Venus).

This could only mean bad news for the likes of Kim, Justine, Jelena and Co who are still trying to get through that mental barrier of the first slam.

Aug 6th, 2002, 05:01 AM
Mishar thanks for providing that great stat

Aug 6th, 2002, 01:49 PM
Anything could happen at any time, someone new could come on the scene although i'm confident Jelena is going to come through in the next year or two and make it big

Aug 6th, 2002, 02:03 PM
passive-aggression at its finest...:rolleyes: not to mention gloating at its most subtle...:o :o