PDA

View Full Version : Brussels : Teenager stabbed for a Mp3 player, dies at hospital.


Martian Jeza
Apr 13th, 2006, 10:31 PM
Police appeal for witnesses to stabbing

Thurs 12/04/06 - A teenager was stabbed by two youths in the busy Brussels Central Railway Station late Wednesday afternoon. The young man was killed for not handing over his mp3 player.

The victim and a friend were waiting for another fiend's train to arrive at Brussels Central Rail Station.

Even during this Easter Holiday period, the ticket hall, that normally sees around 140,000 people passing through every day, was bustling at 4 o'clock on Wednesday afternoon.

Two other youths approached the couple in the ticket hall and attempted to take the victim's mp3 player.

One of the robbers produced a knife and stabbed the teenager when he resisted.

The 17-year-old was taken to Saint Peter's Hospital but died a few hours later from his wounds.

The Brussels Public Prosecutor's Office is currently investigating the case.




Good description of offenders

Police say that a good description of the two culprits has been given by the victim's friend and another witness.

So far there is no sign of the perpetrators, who are thought to be of North African origin, but police are hopeful that the incident was recorded on CCTV.




Isolated incident

The Brussels Judicial Authority has noticed an increase in the number of cases where youngsters are forced to hand over such popular accessories as mobile phones and mp3 players.

This is the first time that such bullying has resulted in such grave consequences.
According to the Belgian National Railways, the fatal stabbing in the Brussels Central Station is an isolated incident.

Rail spokesperson Leen Uytterhoeven explained the shock felt by those working at the station.

She stresses that despite the heavy volume of traffic passing through, Brussels Central is not an unsafe station.

Jackson.
Apr 14th, 2006, 01:52 AM
:eek: :sad:

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:14 AM
:eek: That's so bad! :scared: Hope they will catch the attackers!

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:29 AM
They really should ban teenagers from carrying cell phones and ipods to school. How sad.:sad:

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:40 AM
They really should ban teenagers from carrying cell phones and ipods to school. How sad.:sad:

As if that's gonna stop attacks.

Reuchlin
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:52 AM
I am speechless.

timafi
Apr 14th, 2006, 03:45 AM
:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

Scotso
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:19 AM
I think people need to start teaching their children that when they are threatened with violence, give the attacker whatever money/item they want. It's not worth dying for.

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:22 AM
I think people need to start teaching their children that when they are threatened with violence, give the attacker whatever money/item they want. It's not worth dying for.

hmm that's one way to look at it, yeah.

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:16 AM
As if that's gonna stop attacks.

You know if mp3 players were cheaper where everyone could afford them then my opinion would change. My cousin bought her son an ipod video, he took it to school and someone tried to take it from him. Luckily he ran to the front office before they got it.
:fiery:

meyerpl
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:31 AM
I remember kids killing each other for their tennis shoes twenty years ago. It's tragic, but these incidents get a lot of attention because they're sensational. I don't think it's rampant. I sure as hell hope not anyway. Whether you're the one doing the robbing or the one being robbed, toys and trinkets simply aren't worth a life. My heart goes out to the parents.

Brαm
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:35 AM
Sick :(

The Crow
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:39 AM
They really should ban teenagers from carrying cell phones and ipods to school. How sad.:sad:

Or maybe they should ban teenagers from carrying knives?

Grohl
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:41 AM
Or maybe they should ban teenagers from carrying knives?
that might work a little better!

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 11:36 AM
You know if mp3 players were cheaper where everyone could afford them then my opinion would change. My cousin bought her son an ipod video, he took it to school and someone tried to take it from him. Luckily he ran to the front office before they got it.
:fiery:

And what about all the non school students (ie like me) who happen to have ipods? Should we ban them for taking them out of the house too? I catch the train to the city 2ce a week for a course I am doing, and I always use my Ipod...

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Or maybe they should ban teenagers from carrying knives?

This is a better idea! ;)

yellowcard
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Well, they already have 15 descriptions of the attackers and a robot photo+ the security camera filmed all, so they will go in prison (at least).

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Well, they already have 15 descriptions of the attackers and a robot photo+ the security camera filmed all, so they will go in prison (at least).
Well that's good at least!

LefandePatty
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:17 PM
What's that for a world??

RIP

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:22 PM
They really should ban teenagers from carrying cell phones and ipods to school. How sad.:sad:

Oh I see. It is actually the fault of the youngster who got stabbed. The idiot should not have displayed his mp3-player. How did he dare to do that? Did he not know that there are poor discriminated youngsters from North African origin who cannot afford such a thing? What a discrimination we have here! Oh wait, all of a sudden I know the solution: the government should give free mp3-players, mobile phones, and why not BMWs to youngsters of North African origin...

I'm furious and outraged because of this crime which happened at 200m from my home, in the station I pass everyday. I cringe when I think at the parents and friends of the victim whose life has all of a sudden become a nightmare. Their son and friend just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Furthermore, I find it unbelievable that the spokesman of the police was blaming the people who saw it happen for not intervening!!! How dare he? 1) I'm sure most people did not understand what happened 2) I think it is hard enough for a trained policeman to disarm a man with a knife, let alone some commuters!!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:24 PM
:yeah: Go Hagar!

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:26 PM
You know if mp3 players were cheaper where everyone could afford them then my opinion would change.

See... I hadn't even read this post when I posted my previous one.
Analysis and conclusion of the situation: mp3-players are too expensive. :cuckoo:

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:27 PM
See... I hadn't even read this post when I posted my previous one.
Analysis and conclusion of the situation: mp3-players are too expensive. :cuckoo:

:lol: I thought your reaction was to that! :lol:

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:36 PM
I think people need to start teaching their children that when they are threatened with violence

Wouldn't it be a better idea if parents from North African origin should start teaching their children not to threaten other people with violence? Or maybe finally start teaching their children something to start with!
But how can you educate your child if you have so little personality and identity that you feel you only have one if you hide your face behind a headscarf? Then you give your children the living proof that some people can be annihilated...

In my view, this is NOT an isolated incident. We are going to see more and more of these situations.
And because of such situations more and more people will vote extreme right because they are the only ones who take the problems we have with the subgroup from North African origin serious.

BTW, muslims organized a spontaneous demonstration in Brussels against the Danish cartoons some time ago. 4.000 of them came on the streets because of some innocent drawings. Yesterday a young guy was the victim of a meaningless murder by two youngsters of the muslim community. Where is the spontaneous public disapproval of muslims this time??? :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Maryamator
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:52 PM
:eek: ok now im scared..

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:53 PM
:eek: ok now im scared..

:scratch: Of Hagar - nah... don't be! :p

Maajken
Apr 14th, 2006, 02:59 PM
There was this topic on "Koppen" this week about the recent crime-epidemic in Brussels. Several groups of youngsters terrorise shopkeepers, steel cars, commit hold-ups etc etc in the middle of the day (!) and they're being pretty obvious about it aswell. Apparently they don't care that other people can see them or that they can get caught under the assumption that minors can't be sent to prison anyway.

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 03:01 PM
There was this topic on "Koppen" this week about the recent crime-epidemic in Brussels. Several groups of youngsters terrorise shopkeepers, steel cars, commit hold-ups etc etc in the middle of the day (!) and they're being pretty obvious about it aswell. Apparently they don't care that other people can see them or that they can get caught under the assumption that minors can't be sent to prison anyway.

:sad: That's really bad! :(

fifiricci
Apr 14th, 2006, 03:33 PM
Wouldn't it be a better idea if parents from North African origin should start teaching their children not to threaten other people with violence? Or maybe finally start teaching their children something to start with!
But how can you educate your child if you have so little personality and identity that you feel you only have one if you hide your face behind a headscarf? Then you give your children the living proof that some people can be annihilated...

In my view, this is NOT an isolated incident. We are going to see more and more of these situations.
And because of such situations more and more people will vote extreme right because they are the only ones who take the problems we have with the subgroup from North African origin serious.

BTW, muslims organized a spontaneous demonstration in Brussels against the Danish cartoons some time ago. 4.000 of them came on the streets because of some innocent drawings. Yesterday a young guy was the victim of a meaningless murder by two youngsters of the muslim community. Where is the spontaneous public disapproval of muslims this time??? :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Is it not possible for you to conclude, just for once, that this crime was committed by some revolting and violent individuals who happened to be North African?

A similar crime was committed in my home town about six months ago, where a white boy was senselessly beaten and murdered by three local WHITE boys for no apparent motive other than they were presumably sick and violent individuals who do not know right from wrong. How would you categorise these three boys Hagar, as you are obviously an expert at it! Or will that be too difficult for you, as they are not coloured or muslim?

The degree of your racism and bigotry has become totally abhorrent and I am ashamed to think that I once sat at the same table as you.

^bibi^
Apr 14th, 2006, 03:35 PM
scary when I think I'm there evry day :scared:

Yasmine
Apr 14th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Is it not possible for you to conclude, just for once, that this crime was committed by some revolting and violent individuals who happened to be North African?

A similar crime was committed in my home town about six months ago, where a white boy was senselessly beaten and murdered by three local WHITE boys for no apparent motive other than they were presumably sick and violent individuals who do not know right from wrong. How would you categorise these three boys Hagar, as you are obviously an expert at it! Or will that be too difficult for you, as they are not coloured or muslim?

The degree of your racism and bigotry has become totally abhorrent and I am ashamed to think that I once sat at the same table as you.
Fiona, how do you even give attention to such a poster? ;)
She's shown to be racist and having a I know it all attitude about education of north african kids many times before (just look at her signature)... when herself she doesn't know one single bit of who they are or anything of their culture and probably doesn't have kids herself...
You're wasting your time :hug: and she can tell people what she wants about you, when you two met, people who have some common sense who respect you and who know you better won't give a damn ;)

Yasmine
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:01 PM
scary when I think I'm there evry day :scared:
Craig, a city in the world where there is no incident whatsoever everyday does not exist ;) Thousands of people live and work in Brussels for years and have no problem whatsoever. It's very easy to point out only the bad sides ;)

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:05 PM
where a white boy was senselessly beaten and murdered by three local WHITE boys for no apparent motive other than they were presumably sick and violent individuals who do not know right from wrong. How would you categorise these three boys Hagar, as you are obviously an expert at it!

I presume they had - like a lot of Brits seem to do - drunk too much!!!

The degree of your racism and bigotry has become totally abhorrent and I am ashamed to think that I once sat at the same table as you.

This is the eternal problem with this discussion: that a lot of people are too sentimental. There IS a problem with male youngsters of North African origin; social research has proven it. It is a problem of a lack of masculine authority in these communities. That problem exists less in the Turkish community and as a consequence crime figures for youngsters of Turkish origin is lower.
These are facts and if one keeps denying them, then a constructive discussion is not possible. And of course, everyone who says there is a problem gets the label "racist".

Yasmine
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:07 PM
Hagar if you have replied to my post you can keep ranting because I have the extreme honour to have you on ignore, you belong to a very restricted list you know :devil:

DutchieGirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Hagar if you have replied to my post you can keep ranting because I have the extreme honour to have you on ignore, you belong to a very restricted list you know :devil:

She replied to fifi's post actually. ;)

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Craig, a city in the world where there is no incident whatsoever everyday does not exist ;) Thousands of people live and work in Brussels for years and have no problem whatsoever. It's very easy to point out only the bad sides ;)

The list of stupid arguments is getting longer. Keep giving them! :D

1. mp3-players are too expensive
2. getting murdered at rush hour in the main trainstation of a city is just part of living in a city (it isn't and it definitely is not in Brussels!!! :fiery: )

Yasmine
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:12 PM
She replied to fifi's post actually. ;)
thanks Sarah but do I care? seriously not :devil:

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Or maybe they should ban teenagers from carrying knives?

Hi, The Crow!:wavey:

Of course they should ban children from carrying knives but I think it would be best if mp3 players and cells were included also. ;)

The Crow
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:27 PM
I presume they had - like a lot of Brits seem to do - drunk too much!!!


You really are the queen of generalizations, aren't you?

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:29 PM
The list of stupid arguments is getting longer. Keep giving them! :D

1. mp3-players are too expensive
2. getting murdered at rush hour in the main trainstation of a city is just part of living in a city (it isn't and it definitely is not in Brussels!!! :fiery: )

For alot of families mp3 players are expensive. Some can't afford to buy their children ipods let alone cell phones. Whether you think it's a stupid argument or not is pretty much irrelevant, the fact is that this is a popular item that teenager's want. Certainly it may not prevent some of these unfortuante incidents from happening again but having a policy where students aren't allowed to carry them at school would be a step in the right direction.:wavey:

Kart
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:33 PM
I'm furious and outraged because of this crime which happened at 200m from my home, in the station I pass everyday.

I sympathise.

Hopefully this terrible act will not deter you from going out of the house and away from your computer hence sparing the rest of us from one more broken record :yawn:.

The Crow
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Hi, The Crow!:wavey:

Of course they should ban children from carrying knives but I think it would be best if mp3 players and cells were included also. ;)

I don't know. I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if it's the right solution in this case. Afterall, it didn't happen at school or anything. They could have just as well killed me if I would have been at that place at that time (and if I would owe an ipod ;))

And when I was young, they were other kids which had much more valuable stuff than I had, but I never thought about taking it from someone. When I didn't get it from my parents I just saved till I could buy it (if it's really something I would want). But I agree with you that some kids these days have way too many gadgets...

meyerpl
Apr 14th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Hi, The Crow!:wavey:

Of course they should ban children from carrying knives but I think it would be best if mp3 players and cells were included also. ;)
Instead of punishing everybody by dictating what people can or can't carry, how about allowing law abiding people to carry whatever the hell they want and putting criminals behind bars where they belong? It's one of the oldest, most effective concepts in society and it worked for a long time. What hasn't worked are feel-good alternatives to incarcerating criminals and predators.
In Minnesota, law abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons. I've generally been against the concept, but it hasn't caused problems. Maybe it's not such a bad idea. Go ahead, come and try to take my ipod.

azdaja
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Instead of punishing everybody by dictating what people can or can't carry, how about allowing law abiding people to carry whatever the hell they want and putting criminals behind bars where they belong? It's one of the oldest, most effective concepts in society and it worked for a long time.
but criminals are being put behind bars all the time. it does not seem to be as effective as you suggest.

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:14 PM
I don't know. I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if it's the right solution in this case. Afterall, it didn't happen at school or anything. They could have just as well killed me if I would have been at that place at that time (and if I would owe an ipod ;))

And when I was young, they were other kids which had much more valuable stuff than I had, but I never thought about taking it from someone. When I didn't get it from my parents I just saved till I could buy it (if it's really something I would want). But I agree with you that some kids these days have way too many gadgets...

Considering that it didn't happen on school grounds you do have a point. I know people in general detest any form of censorship or rules but unfortunately our climate has changed for the worst.

I understand where you are coming from when you comment about the time you had in school. Back in the day students had more valuable items than me and stealing wasn't a problem. With technology and a certain need to be cool the same can't be said about teeny boppers today.

Maybe prohibiting these gadgets from school grounds isn't the answer. What is your solution?:D

Brooklyn90
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:21 PM
that's really sad, and to kill someone over an mp3 player is really stupid

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:32 PM
but criminals are being put behind bars all the time. it does not seem to be as effective as you suggest.

I'm starting to think that the reason for that is that they are not left behind bars but released!
No, seriously, I actually believe in re-education. But I also think there are some lost cases.
I now heard in the TV news that the young guy was stabbed FIVE times. I'm sorry, if you are the kind of person who stabs someone 5 times in the chest because he does not give his mp3-player to you, and you do that in a place full of people at rush hour... That means that you have no norms and values and that someone else's life has is worth zero to you. Consequently, you will kill again. As a matter of fact, you might have killed before.
I am against the death penalty but the youngsters who did this should be put in prison and never be released.
But will they ever be caught? Apparently, the videotapes were blurred.

meyerpl
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:38 PM
The wrong criminals are put behind bars and violent preditors are released to re-offend.

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 05:52 PM
Instead of punishing everybody by dictating what people can or can't carry, how about allowing law abiding people to carry whatever the hell they want and putting criminals behind bars where they belong? It's one of the oldest, most effective concepts in society and it worked for a long time. What hasn't worked are feel-good alternatives to incarcerating criminals and predators.
In Minnesota, law abiding citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons. I've generally been against the concept, but it hasn't caused problems. Maybe it's not such a bad idea. Go ahead, come and try to take my ipod.

I was referring to children carrying the mp3 players to school without any supervision. You are talking about something entirely different.;)

nygirl
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Did he not know that there are poor discriminated youngsters from North African origin who cannot afford such a thing? What a discrimination we have here! Oh wait, all of a sudden I know the solution: the government should give free mp3-players, mobile phones, and why not BMWs to youngsters of North African origin...


Wouldn't it be a better idea if parents from North African origin should start teaching their children not to threaten other people with violence? Or maybe finally start teaching their children something to start with!
But how can you educate your child if you have so little personality and identity that you feel you only have one if you hide your face behind a headscarf? Then you give your children the living proof that some people can be annihilated...

You have so much hatred towards a community that you probably don't even know. What happened was absolutely horrible but you're dragging a whole community into this. Your posts have a horrible stench of racism.

How the hell can you say people have little personality because they choose to wear a headscarf?????

A. What does wearing a headscarf have to do with killing a poor innocent kid??? Are you so deluded or just simply racist???
And
B. A headscarf doesn't hide a FACE, it's a HEADscarf, it's pulled over the head, not over the face.

People like you disgust me. They abuse every single incident to justify their hatred towards a certain group of people, whether they be North African, blacks, Jews or whatever. If you're racist fine so be it but don't go around spewing your hatred and trying to justify it by what happened to that poor kid.

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 07:52 PM
For alot of families mp3 players are expensive. Some can't afford to buy their children ipods let alone cell phones.

And since when does a human being need an ipod or a cell phone to survive. Jezus, it sounds like you are talking about having food or a roof above one's head!
I go even further: I think that everyone has the right to show off as much as they want with jewelry, ipods, cellphones, cars, whatever, without being approached by someone who tries to steal it from them. The fact that one has something that another does not have, doesn't give anyone the right to steal it!!!

Also, we are not talking about kids here. The culprits were young men of +/- 18. And they were up to something because they had a knife with them!

harloo
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:01 PM
And since when does a human being need an ipod or a cell phone to survive. Jezus, it sounds like you are talking about having food or a roof above one's head!
I go even further: I think that everyone has the right to show off as much as they want with jewelry, ipods, cellphones, cars, whatever, without being approached by someone who tries to steal it from them. The fact that one has something that another does not have, doesn't give anyone the right to steal it!!!

Also, we are not talking about kids here. The culprits were young men of +/- 18. And they were up to something because they had a knife with them!

Are you asking that question to be funny? It's already a given that one doesn't need an ipod to survive. :rolleyes: :tape:

And I still stick by my original point of school children not carrying ipods to school. I didn't mention ANYTHING about people not being free to be gaudy. What are you talking about?:confused:

Chris 84
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:08 PM
You have so much hatred towards a community that you probably don't even know. What happened was absolutely horrible but you're dragging a whole community into this. Your posts have a horrible stench of racism.

How the hell can you say people have little personality because they choose to wear a headscarf?????

A. What does wearing a headscarf have to do with killing a poor innocent kid??? Are you so deluded or just simply racist???
And
B. A headscarf doesn't hide a FACE, it's a HEADscarf, it's pulled over the head, not over the face.

People like you disgust me. They abuse every single incident to justify their hatred towards a certain group of people, whether they be North African, blacks, Jews or whatever. If you're racist fine so be it but don't go around spewing your hatred and trying to justify it by what happened to that poor kid.

What an excellent post :clap2: :worship:

Yasmine
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:17 PM
You have so much hatred towards a community that you probably don't even know. What happened was absolutely horrible but you're dragging a whole community into this. Your posts have a horrible stench of racism.

How the hell can you say people have little personality because they choose to wear a headscarf?????

A. What does wearing a headscarf have to do with killing a poor innocent kid??? Are you so deluded or just simply racist???
And
B. A headscarf doesn't hide a FACE, it's a HEADscarf, it's pulled over the head, not over the face.

People like you disgust me. They abuse every single incident to justify their hatred towards a certain group of people, whether they be North African, blacks, Jews or whatever. If you're racist fine so be it but don't go around spewing your hatred and trying to justify it by what happened to that poor kid.
:worship: :worship: :worship: the best post I've read in a long time :yeah:

gentenaire
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:19 PM
In all fairness, I doubt anyone in this country had any doubt about the origin of these attackers. It's sad to say, but nearly all cases like these are done by youngsters of North African origin.

Of course, not all Moroccans are criminals and not all criminals are of Moroccan origin, but this particular type of crime, this type of robbery, is fairly typical for North African youths. You just know when something like this happens, that it's those boys again.
White criminals are generally responsible for other type of crimes, more organised crimes, bank robberies, burglaries, etc.

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:21 PM
What are you talking about?:confused:

I am talking about a boy of 17 being stabbed to death because he refused to hand his mp3-player over to two scumbags who tried to steal it.

And the only thing you have to say about that is that MP3-PLAYERS/IPODS ARE TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!

WHY DON'T YOU GO AND HARP ABOUT IT TO THE PARENTS OF THAT KID! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

gentenaire
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:22 PM
And I still stick by my original point of school children not carrying ipods to school. I didn't mention ANYTHING about people not being free to be gaudy. What are you talking about?:confused:

What's the point of ipods then if you can't listen to it? At home, you turn on the radio, you don't need a portable device. An ipod is meant for listening to on the train, in the car, etc. If you're supposed to leave it home at all times, why bother having one?

We shouldn't carry around mobile phones then too, because they love to steal those too. We should all leave our mobile phones at home, the same for laptops. The whole point of all these devices is that they're portable!

adam_ads_n
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:43 PM
I have to agree mp3 players are expensive, especially here in Poland where my mom gets 400 euros a month for being a accountants director in the company, but this argumentation is not good. I am shocked that such thing happened in central bus station. Where was the police, and what did others do? That thing is really shocking.

yellowcard
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:47 PM
There was this topic on "Koppen" this week about the recent crime-epidemic in Brussels. Several groups of youngsters terrorise shopkeepers, steel cars, commit hold-ups etc etc in the middle of the day (!) and they're being pretty obvious about it aswell. Apparently they don't care that other people can see them or that they can get caught under the assumption that minors can't be sent to prison anyway.

Was it with the hot homo Wim de Vilder?

gentenaire
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:47 PM
Where was the police, and what did others do? That thing is really shocking.

You can't expect the police to be everywhere at all times.
The bystanders didn't do a thing, but according to psychologists that's actually normal. The more people there are, the less likely someone will help. When something like this happens, everyone either presumes someone else will help or presumes that because no one is helping, they didn't really see what they thought they'd seen, "or else, surely someone would have reacted." and so no one reacts.

adam_ads_n
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:49 PM
What's the point of ipods then if you can't listen to it? At home, you turn on the radio, you don't need a portable device. An ipod is meant for listening to on the train, in the car, etc. If you're supposed to leave it home at all times, why bother having one?

We shouldn't carry around mobile phones then too, because they love to steal those too. We should all leave our mobile phones at home, the same for laptops. The whole point of all these devices is that they're portable!
Well I don't agree with the mobiles statement. There were lots of situation when my mobile was needed at school, even for informing my parents I will be later at home. But I have to agree you have to use ir very safely (1st rule: do not show it to everyone, and don't boast about your mobile).

adam_ads_n
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:52 PM
You can't expect the police to be everywhere at all times.
The bystanders didn't do a thing, but according to psychologists that's actually normal. The more people there are, the less likely someone will help. When something like this happens, everyone either presumes someone else will help or presumes that because no one is helping, they didn't really see what they thought they'd seen, "or else, surely someone would have reacted." and so no one reacts.
Yes I heard about it and it really scares me. I remember when I was in the bus in Lublin, where I study, and two boys (about 15-16) started having a row with the third one. I think they wanted a money from him, or something similar. Me and my friend reacted, and then other people started shouting at them as well. I think if someone starts, other people will help them.

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:53 PM
I have to agree mp3 players are expensive, especially here in Poland where my mom gets 400 euros a month for being a accountants director in the company, but this argumentation is not good. I am shocked that such thing happened in central bus station. Where was the police, and what did others do? That thing is really shocking.

A friend of mine told me that she heard a professor in criminology say on TV that it is actually easier to perform this type of crime in a big crowd. The chance that someone will help the victim is smaller if more people are around. This has been shown by research in the domain of social psychology. It has nothing to do with selfishness or indifference. The reason is that peoplo more easily think that someone else will help.
Also, there was confusion over what happened. People see youngsters fight, don't understand that someone is seriously injured. Plus, 16:30 is the rush hour for commuters and everyone is in a hurry to catch a train.

There is studies and research about these situations, about when and where what kind of crime happens. There are also figures about criminality among different subgroups of society. They show among other things that male youngsters from Moroccan origin commit more crimes than their counterparts of Belgian origin.
Stating this is talking about facts but does not make someone a racist. It is being objective.
It is a pity that some people here refuse to see the facts and can apparently only discuss about this in a sentimental way.

Joana
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:55 PM
We shouldn't carry around mobile phones then too, because they love to steal those too. We should all leave our mobile phones at home, the same for laptops. The whole point of all these devices is that they're portable!

I agree. And not only that: we shouldn't wear expensive jewellery or trendy clothes, or drive cool cars (or even better, don't use cars at all). Women should not wear make-up or mini skirts, because we all know what happens to women who do that, and let's face it, if it happens to her, she was asking for it.

gentenaire
Apr 14th, 2006, 08:56 PM
Well I don't agree with the mobiles statement. There were lots of situation when my mobile was needed at school, even for informing my parents I will be later at home. But I have to agree you have to use ir very safely (1st rule: do not show it to everyone, and don't boast about your mobile).

Adam, I was trying to say that the whole point of mobile phones is that they're mobile, so you're supposed to carry them around. It was an ironic statement. So I agree with you, disagree with Harloo.

Chris 84
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:00 PM
There are also figures about criminality among different subgroups of society. They show among other things that male youngsters from Moroccan origin commit more crimes than their counterparts of Belgian origin.
Stating this is talking about facts but does not make someone a racist. It is being objective.
It is a pity that some people here refuse to see the facts and can apparently only discuss about this in a sentimental way.

It is also stating a fact that those from lower-income backgrounds are more likely to commit crimes than those from higher-income backgrounds and that men are more likely to commit crime than women, but you don't bring this up.

However, anyone who has seen any number of your posts knows exactly the disdain which you seem to show towards Muslims, and particularly North African immigrants into Europe. You blame them for all the evils of the world. Perhaps that's why you have been branded a racist by some people....you make no secret of the fact that you do not like these people, so is it any surprise that you're considered to be a racist by some?

Hagar
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:05 PM
I agree. And not only that: we shouldn't wear expensive jewellery or trendy clothes, or drive cool cars (or even better, don't use cars at all). Women should not wear make-up or mini skirts, because we all know what happens to women who do that, and let's face it, if it happens to her, she was asking for it.

Damn it, as a woman we are really faced with a dilemma. We shouldn't wear clothes coz they can steal them off our body. But if we don't wear clothes, we will be raped coz "We asked for it".

Actually, men as well as women face another dilemma: you have a mobile phone with you so that you can warn someone when someone tries to rob you. But then, the fact that you carry a mobile with you, makes you a target for robbers.

Life is hard. :p

In order to avoid these dilemma's, I stick to my original suggestion: let us make it clear to those subgroups in society with a high crime percentage, that if they don't adapt to our Western european normas and values, we will not tolerate it. Plus make sure that no more new elements from abroad are added to these subgroups.

Chris 84
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:07 PM
In order to avoid these dilemma's, I stick to my original suggestion: let us make it clear to those subgroups in society with a high crime percentage, that if they don't adapt to our Western european normas and values, we will not tolerate it. Plus make sure that no more new elements from abroad are added to these subgroups.

You've just proved my above point :rolleyes:

adam_ads_n
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:08 PM
Adam, I was trying to say that the whole point of mobile phones is that they're mobile, so you're supposed to carry them around. It was an ironic statement. So I agree with you, disagree with Harloo.
Oh ok :) I just misunderstood :)

azdaja
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:09 PM
hagar, the kind of things that you say about north africans were often said about the black people in the us. and as far as i know stealing and killing people is not a north african value anymore than it is european.

Allez-H
Apr 14th, 2006, 10:42 PM
First I want to say that I was shocked when I heard the news yesterday. I take the train every single day to Brussels and I always wear my mp3, so it's really just shocking to hear something happen like that.


Second of all, Hagar, just admit you're a racist. I doubt you even care about this guy, you just rejoice to the fact that a North african commited a terrible crime so you can threat them like a dirt and not feel bad about it since, well, they are dirt :yeah:

DutchieGirl
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:20 AM
thanks Sarah but do I care? seriously not :devil:

:lol: OK. ;)

DutchieGirl
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:26 AM
You can't expect the police to be everywhere at all times.
The bystanders didn't do a thing, but according to psychologists that's actually normal. The more people there are, the less likely someone will help. When something like this happens, everyone either presumes someone else will help or presumes that because no one is helping, they didn't really see what they thought they'd seen, "or else, surely someone would have reacted." and so no one reacts.

Yep - this is true. We studied that in my psych course. But still the guys had a knife, I'm not sure I'd wanna try disarming them if I was there. I'd maybe help after the attack, call the cops if I saw what was going on during the attack, but trying to disarm them: :eek:.

DutchieGirl
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:29 AM
I agree. And not only that: we shouldn't wear expensive jewellery or trendy clothes, or drive cool cars (or even better, don't use cars at all). Women should not wear make-up or mini skirts, because we all know what happens to women who do that, and let's face it, if it happens to her, she was asking for it.

:yeah: :worship: Good post!

gentenaire
Apr 15th, 2006, 07:25 AM
BTW, muslims organized a spontaneous demonstration in Brussels against the Danish cartoons some time ago. 4.000 of them came on the streets because of some innocent drawings. Yesterday a young guy was the victim of a meaningless murder by two youngsters of the muslim community. Where is the spontaneous public disapproval of muslims this time??? :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF15042006_006
It's not of the same scale as the protests against the cartoons but it's something.

Optocht tegen geweld na mp3-moord

document.write('');http://m2.2mdn.net/viewad/817-grey.gif (http://ad.be.doubleclick.net/click;h=v5|33c8|0|0|%2a|q;44306;0-0;0;8442854;237-250|250;0|0|0;;~sscs=%3f) BRUSSEL - Fouad Ahidar, Brussels volksvertegenwoordiger voor SP.A-Spirit, plant een optocht tegen zinloos geweld naar aanleiding van de roofmoord woensdag in het Centraal Station in Brussel. Volgens hem ruikt de moord omwille van een MP3-speler naar racisme.

,,Ik probeer al een tijdje aan te kaarten dat steeds meer criminele Marokkaanse of Turkse jongeren slachtoffers uitkiezen die er als ongelovigen uitzien. Vorige maand was het een Nigeriaanse jongen en nu een Belgische'', aldus Ahidar in de krant De Morgen. ,,We moeten racisme bestrijden in al zijn facetten, of dat nu van de allochtone of de autochtone gemeenschap is'', luidt het.

Faoud Ahidar is van plan de optocht op woensdag 19 april te houden, maar de datum staat nog niet helemaal vast. De oproep om mee te stappen, is in de eerste plaats tot allochtonen gericht, maar de politicus benadrukt dat iedereen vrij is om deel te nemen.
kld

translation:

Faoud Ahidar, member of the Brussels parliament, is planning a protest against unnecessary violence after Wednesday's slaying in Brussels Central Station. According the him, the murder is an act of racism.
"I've tried several times to address the issue that more and more Moroccan and Turkish youths pick victims that look like infidels. Last month a Nigerian boy was the victim, this time a Belgian boy. We have to fight against racism of all forms, whether it's coming from the immigrant society or the white society."

Faoud Ahidar is planning the protest on April 19th, thought the date isn't yet eniterely fixed. The call to join the protest is mainly directed at immigrants, but the police insists everyone is welcome to join.

^bibi^
Apr 15th, 2006, 07:43 AM
Craig, a city in the world where there is no incident whatsoever everyday does not exist ;) Thousands of people live and work in Brussels for years and have no problem whatsoever. It's very easy to point out only the bad sides ;)

we're talking 'bout brussels here, it's not even belgum's most crowded city, and there are citites more crowded than belgium lol

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:29 AM
http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF15042006_006
It's not of the same scale as the protests against the cartoons but it's something.

Optocht tegen geweld na mp3-moord

document.write('');http://m2.2mdn.net/viewad/817-grey.gif (http://ad.be.doubleclick.net/click;h=v5|33c8|0|0|%2a|q;44306;0-0;0;8442854;237-250|250;0|0|0;;~sscs=%3f) BRUSSEL - Fouad Ahidar, Brussels volksvertegenwoordiger voor SP.A-Spirit, plant een optocht tegen zinloos geweld naar aanleiding van de roofmoord woensdag in het Centraal Station in Brussel. Volgens hem ruikt de moord omwille van een MP3-speler naar racisme.

,,Ik probeer al een tijdje aan te kaarten dat steeds meer criminele Marokkaanse of Turkse jongeren slachtoffers uitkiezen die er als ongelovigen uitzien. Vorige maand was het een Nigeriaanse jongen en nu een Belgische'', aldus Ahidar in de krant De Morgen. ,,We moeten racisme bestrijden in al zijn facetten, of dat nu van de allochtone of de autochtone gemeenschap is'', luidt het.

Faoud Ahidar is van plan de optocht op woensdag 19 april te houden, maar de datum staat nog niet helemaal vast. De oproep om mee te stappen, is in de eerste plaats tot allochtonen gericht, maar de politicus benadrukt dat iedereen vrij is om deel te nemen.
kld

translation:

Faoud Ahidar, member of the Brussels parliament, is planning a protest against unnecessary violence after Wednesday's slaying in Brussels Central Station. According the him, the murder is an act of racism.
"I've tried several times to address the issue that more and more Moroccan and Turkish youths pick victims that look like infidels. Last month a Nigerian boy was the victim, this time a Belgian boy. We have to fight against racism of all forms, whether it's coming from the immigrant society or the white society."

Faoud Ahidar is planning the protest on April 19th, thought the date isn't yet eniterely fixed. The call to join the protest is mainly directed at immigrants, but the police insists everyone is welcome to join.

Let's show how many people show up. Let's see how many males from Moroccan and Turkish origin show up. I don't think this will be a succes but I hope I am positively surprised.

The fact is that I have in any case not seen any spontaneous condamnatioin of the murder by the muslim community. Ahidar seems to be the only one who reacted so far.

Ahidar is doing a nice effort to change the mentality with the muslim population, he's telling them they have to take responsibility. I do however not know if he is against the headscarves plus he was also harping about the Danish cartoons.
For me muslims are only OK if they unambigously embrace the Western values. Those are a.o. gender equality (so no headscarves, it is discriminating whatever the muslims say themselves), seperation of religion and state and condamnation of violence.

Veritas
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:42 AM
I'm starting to think that the reason for that is that they are not left behind bars but released!
No, seriously, I actually believe in re-education. But I also think there are some lost cases.
I now heard in the TV news that the young guy was stabbed FIVE times. I'm sorry, if you are the kind of person who stabs someone 5 times in the chest because he does not give his mp3-player to you, and you do that in a place full of people at rush hour... That means that you have no norms and values and that someone else's life has is worth zero to you. Consequently, you will kill again. As a matter of fact, you might have killed before.
I am against the death penalty but the youngsters who did this should be put in prison and never be released.
But will they ever be caught? Apparently, the videotapes were blurred.

I don't think it's the people that are the problem, it's how the Criminal Justice System deals with them and the victims that needs some serious reassessment.

What good will putting two delinquents behind bars and seting them free decades later do when there's more than a 50% chance they'll reoffend?

The prison is hopeless when it comes to "re-education". It's little more than P.C. bullshit. The prison is there to confine and punish. Rehabilitation is the last thing it's concerned with.

On a more cynical note, the prison is there to cover up the mistakes and hopeless policies our leaders call "law" today.

IMO, giving the poor kid justice means doing something that'll make sure delinquents won't reoffend or, better yet, won't offend in the first place. Throwing them in a place as violent and uncaring as prisons won't solve much, other than keeping the "outsiders" confined inside four walls.

Chris 84
Apr 15th, 2006, 11:31 AM
For me muslims are only OK if they unambigously embrace the Western values. Those are a.o. gender equality (so no headscarves, it is discriminating whatever the muslims say themselves), seperation of religion and state and condamnation of violence.

In the UK, and throughout Europe, men are still, on average, paid more than women for the doing same jobs.
There is no separation of religion and state in the UK...the monarch is head of both the Anglican Church and also the state.
Condemnation od violence? Oh yeah, that's a good Western value isn't it? Oh sorry, I forgot, we've just murdered thousands of Iraqi people in a ludicrous war, haven't we?

As for headscarves, how exactly are they discriminatory? Is it discriminatory therefore for Sikh men who have to wear turbans whereas the women don't? Of course not.

dementieva's fan
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:51 PM
Why do my posts keep disappearing into thin air in this thread?

DutchieGirl
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:54 PM
Why do my posts keep disappearing into thin air in this thread?

hey! I saw a post from you in here before! :scratch:

The Crow
Apr 15th, 2006, 01:25 PM
Why do my posts keep disappearing into thin air in this thread?

Posts with insults tend to disappear in here. It's strange, I know.

DutchieGirl
Apr 15th, 2006, 01:26 PM
Posts with insults tend to disappear in here. It's strange, I know.

I don't remember what exactly they posted, but I didn't think it was THAT bad... :shrug:

dementieva's fan
Apr 15th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Posts with insults tend to disappear in here. It's strange, I know.
If my posts were insulting just wait till you see the "Annoying Posters" thread. :tape: :lol:

-Ph51-
Apr 15th, 2006, 01:54 PM
we're talking 'bout brussels here, it's not even belgum's most crowded city, and there are citites more crowded than belgium lol
Oh yes...it is ;)

^bibi^
Apr 15th, 2006, 02:08 PM
Oh yes...it is ;)

Its Antwerp... (or at least it used to be since not very long lol)

^bibi^
Apr 15th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Ok my mistake, I've checked and it seems Brussels is now the first city of Belgium lol

Here's tha ranking :

1 Brussels
2 Antwerpen
3 Liege (didn't know we were still third lol)
4 Gent
5 Charleroi

Kart
Apr 15th, 2006, 02:28 PM
Posts with insults tend to disappear in here. It's strange, I know.

Someone must be watching us :scared:.

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 02:55 PM
For me muslims are only OK if they unambigously embrace the Western values. Those are a.o. gender equality (so no headscarves, it is discriminating whatever the muslims say themselves), seperation of religion and state and condamnation of violence.
as chris said separation of religion and state does not exist in most european countries and i think it's perfectly silly to claim that condemnation of violence is a "western value". i mean europe was the most violent part of the world ever. that does not mean that embracing violence is a western value either, it simply means that such things have little to do with values. and women did win a lot of rights for themselves in europe, yes, but i have the impression people keep on forgetting that this happened fairly recently. when did women get the right to vote in belgium for example? in 1948?

europeans tend to have a bit to nice opinion about their own civilisation. have we already forgotten what happened on this continent 70 years ago? in the name of "western values" even.

fifiricci
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:18 PM
as chris said separation of religion and state does not exist in most european countries and i think it's perfectly silly to claim that condemnation of violence is a "western value". i mean europe was the most violent part of the world ever. that does not mean that embracing violence is a western value either, it simply means that such things have little to do with values. and women did win a lot of rights for themselves in europe, yes, but i have the impression people keep on forgetting that this happened fairly recently. when did women get the right to vote in belgium for example? in 1948?

europeans tend to have a bit to nice opinion about their own civilisation. have we already forgotten what happened on this continent 70 years ago? in the name of "western values" even.

Indeed, and Belgium's one attempt at Imperialism (Belgian Congo) and the revolting acts of violence against the indigenous population that went with it is possibly an excellent example of the point you are making. It is, I believe, also now the subject of much national shame in the country, that is only recently being acknowledged?

-Ph51-
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Indeed, and Belgium's one attempt at Imperialism (Belgian Congo) and the revolting acts of violence against the indigenous population that went with it is possibly an excellent example of the point you are making. It is, I believe, also now the subject of much national shame in the country, that is only recently being acknowledged?
bof

fifiricci
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:22 PM
bof

Oh for sure, I'm not singling Belgium out, we are all equally guilty, I'm just using it to demonstrate the point, as Belgium is the subject of this thread ;)

-Ph51-
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Oh for sure, I'm not singling Belgium out, we are all equally guilty, I'm just using it to demonstrate the point, as Belgium is the subject of this thread ;)
What i mean is that i don't notice a lot of shame.
Also i wonder if people in Zimbabwe and Congo are much happier now than they were let's say 50 years ago. I doubt it.

fifiricci
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:35 PM
What i mean is that i don't notice a lot of shame.
Also i wonder if people in Zimbabwe and Congo are much happier now than they were let's say 50 years ago. I doubt it.

Maybe not, but that's not the point, unless you want to start a further debate arguing that they might not be in the perilous/unhappy state they are in now if their natural history and evolution had not been wrecked by white imperialism.

Its a shame that there's little or no shame about the Congo in Belgium, Most other countries that indulged in such acts have at least gone through the motions of atonement. ;)

-Ph51-
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Maybe not, but that's not the point, unless you want to start a further debate arguing that they might not be in the perilous/unhappy state they are in now if their natural history and evolution had not been wrecked by white imperialism.

Its a shame that there's little or no shame about the Congo in Belgium, Most other countries that indulged in such acts have at least gone through the motions of atonement. ;)
That's an endless discussion. You can't put different civilisations in boxes so that there would be no contact. Human history shows the strong dominate the weak. And the strong today could be the weak tomorrow. And i don't even talk about envy.

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:47 PM
as chris said separation of religion and state does not exist in most european countries and i think it's perfectly silly to claim that condemnation of violence is a "western value". i mean europe was the most violent part of the world ever. that does not mean that embracing violence is a western value either, it simply means that such things have little to do with values. and women did win a lot of rights for themselves in europe, yes, but i have the impression people keep on forgetting that this happened fairly recently. when did women get the right to vote in belgium for example? in 1948?

europeans tend to have a bit to nice opinion about their own civilisation. have we already forgotten what happened on this continent 70 years ago? in the name of "western values" even.

It is a fact that in these discussions there is a moment where posters start to point out the many flaws that Western European countries have and the many mistakes they have.
However, I never see someone completing the reasoning.

Yes, women still get less paid and they only got the right to vote in the course of the 20th century. Yes, there have been 2 horrible wars in Western Europe. And yes we were not always nice when we were in Africa (although I am convinced that a lot of Africans think with sadness about the time before independence coz apart from the local elites the population is not better off than in the old days...)

But I do not see how this gives the right to a subgroup in our society to undermine our society. I also do not see how giving women the right to vote only in 1948 is a justification for wearing a headscarf. On the contrary, women's rights are not yet consolidated so we have to be extra vigilant.

So you say A (Western Europe has many flaws...) but you never say B which would in my opinion be: "therefore the North african subgroup does not have to respect and assimilate the values of the Western european society they live in."
I think I know why no one ever writes B. Because it is clear that that would be utter bollocks! :fiery:

I think the values of the Western european society are modern and secular and therefore they are the best values a society can have. I am not member of the "cultural relativism" club!!!
The North african subgroup should respect and assimilate the values of the society they have chosen to live in and if they don't like these values, they can always go to another country!

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:54 PM
Its a shame that there's little or no shame about the Congo in Belgium, Most other countries that indulged in such acts have at least gone through the motions of atonement. ;)

Why would Belgium have to be so ashamed about Congo? The Belgians offered a lot to Congo! When the Belgians were chased away beginning of the 60'ies a lot of Congolese were crying their eyes out. And these days a lot of them are very melancholic about the time when the Belgians were present!

The 1994 genocide in Rwanda would not have taken place if the Belgians were still there.

Before you treat us to your Gospel about the Belgian colonial history, read some books about it. Might be a more interesting passtime than going to the pub!

Hulet
Apr 15th, 2006, 04:57 PM
although I am convinced that a lot of Africans think with sadness about the time before independence coz apart from the local elites the population is not better off than in the old days...
I know a lot of Africans (I doubt that you have met a single one) and I have yet to meet any one who is sad because oh those good old colonial days were over.

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:10 PM
I think the values of the Western european society are modern and secular and therefore they are the best values a society can have. I am not member of the "cultural relativism" club!!!
The North african subgroup should respect and assimilate the values of the society they have chosen to live in and if they don't like these values, they can always go to another country!
well, i have the impression that people like you are also undermining the values that we in the west indeed have and by using your argument i would suggest you to move somewhere else. oh, and you clearly are a member of cultural relativism club and also of one of the wrong sort. what you meant to say is that you are not a member of moral relativism club. but that's another matter.

the flaws of the western society are actually mentioned simply to show that "values" can't be the root cause for violence and crime. there are positive and negative things in every culture, because every culture adapts itself to the needs of ordinary human beings. in addition, a culture is not monolithic.

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Before you treat us to your Gospel about the Belgian colonial history, read some books about it. Might be a more interesting passtime than going to the pub!
i read about it. it was sickening.

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:21 PM
i read about it. it was sickening.

So the scumbags who stabbed the guy for his mp3-player had the right to do that because Belgians behaved badly in Congo? :confused:
I guess that must be your reasoning, why otherwise bringing up Congo?

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
So the scumbags who stabbed the guy for his mp3-player had the right to do that because Belgians behaved badly in Congo? :confused:
I guess that must be your reasoning, why otherwise bringing up Congo?
i did not bring up congo, but i also explained why it was brought up:

the flaws of the western society are actually mentioned simply to show that "values" can't be the root cause for violence and crime.
there.

Joana
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Europe is far from perfect but I'd sure prefer to live here than in Saudi Arabia and no amount of cultural relativism can change that.
Also, whether you like it or not, Europe has certain values that those who come here need to respect. The same goes for Europeans who go to Middle East. When in Rome...

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Europe is far from perfect but I'd sure prefer to live here than in Saudi Arabia and no amount of cultural relativism can change that.
Also, whether you like it or not, Europe has certain values that those who come here need to respect. The same goes for Europeans who go to Middle East. When in Rome...
well, the problem with this reasoning is that it has abolutely nothing to do with the problem of crime. is killing people and stealing acceptable in the north african culture? if not, why are we talking about culture at all? because hagar brought it into discussion, i know.

as for the term "cultural relativism", it comes from anthropogy, but it is widely used in its political sense. critics of cultural relativism see it as a new form of racism with emphasis on culture rather then race and ethnicity. hagar and quite a few people here are clearly cultural relativists in the political sense.

-Ph51-
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:25 PM
well, the problem with this reasoning is that it has abolutely nothing to do with the problem of crime. is killing people and stealing acceptable in the north african culture? if not, why are we talking about culture at all? because hagar brought it into discussion, i know.

as for the term "cultural relativism", it comes from anthropogy, but it is widely used in its political sense. critics of cultural relativism see it as a new form of racism with emphasis on culture rather then race and ethnicity. hagar and quite a few people here are clearly cultural relativists in the political sense.
You're funny ;)

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:32 PM
well, the problem with this reasoning is that it has abolutely nothing to do with the problem of crime. is killing people and stealing acceptable in the north african culture? if not, why are we talking about culture at all? because hagar brought it into discussion, i know.

What you say here is absolutely wrong.
My point is that there is a problem in Western european societies with the subgroup from North african origin. Why? Because apparently the male younsters of that culture commit a lot more crimes than male youngsters from other subgroups (for example: Turkish youngsters).
This has been repeatedly proved by figures.
Am I saying here that killing people and stealing is more acceptable in the north african culture? NO! All I am saying is that the North african origin in Western european seems less likely to live according to the rules and laws which exist here because they are breaching them significanly more often than other people. This has negative consequences for our society.

as for the term "cultural relativism", it comes from anthropogy, but it is widely used in its political sense. critics of cultural relativism see it as a new form of racism with emphasis on culture rather then race and ethnicity. hagar and quite a few people here are clearly cultural relativists in the political sense.

NO. ABSOLUTE RUBBISH. You are talking nonsense because you are turning thinks around here. I am NOT a cultural relativist (you must be kidding). If I am anything, I am a cultural ABSOLUTIST. A cultural relativist will say that every culture's values are on the same level, I am not saying that at all.
I think our Western european values are better and superior to the ones of the North african subgroup. That means that they have to adapt to the Western european values and not the opposite. If the latter would be the case, Western europeans would just accept the murder for the mp3-player as a logical consequence of the fact that new values have been brought into our society (like: if someone has something in his hand that I want, he has to give it to me and if he doesn't, I stab the bastard).

Again: I am NOT a cultural relativist. I believe some societies are more civilized than others and some values are better than others.
You insult me if you call me a cultural relativist. But I'm sure you did not mean to, I think you simply did not get the meaning of "cultural relativist".

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 06:51 PM
What you say here is absolutely wrong.
My point is that there is a problem in Western european societies with the subgroup from North african origin. Why? Because apparently the male younsters of that culture commit a lot more crimes than male youngsters from other subgroups (for example: Turkish youngsters).
This has been repeatedly proved by figures.
funny because in germany it's apparently turkish youngsters who make problems (or so they say). could it be that this has little to do with culture but with some other factors?

A cultural relativist will say that every culture's values are on the same level
no, that's called moral relativism :p

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:40 PM
funny because in germany it's apparently turkish youngsters who make problems (or so they say). could it be that this has little to do with culture but with some other factors?


no, that's called moral relativism :p

NO! You don't get it: you simply don't understand the meaning of the word "RELATIVISM". Relativism as opposite of absolutism means that you consider different options as equal and not prefer one! Whether you call it moral or cultural does not matter because moral rules are part of someone's culture!

The fact that you use a word in the wrong way gives me the impression you are stupid... Not good for your credibility.

Chris 84
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:42 PM
NO! You don't get it: you simply don't understand the meaning of the word "RELATIVISM". Relativism as opposite of absolutism means that you consider different options as equal and not prefer one! Whether you call it moral or cultural does not matter because moral rules are part of someone's culture!

The fact that you use a word in the wrong way gives me the impression you are stupid... Not good for your credibility.

:yawn: whenever anyone argues with you, you resort to insulting them :rolleyes:

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 08:57 PM
:yawn: whenever anyone argues with you, you resort to insulting them :rolleyes:

This is not about him arguing with me, he's saying something that is blatantly wrong! It is about the word he is using.

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:05 PM
NO! You don't get it: you simply don't understand the meaning of the word "RELATIVISM". Relativism as opposite of absolutism means that you consider different options as equal and not prefer one! Whether you call it moral or cultural does not matter because moral rules are part of someone's culture!
i'm sorry, but you are blatantly wrong. you can create your own definitions all day long, but they are not universally accepted. i am aware that a lot of people confuse these 2 terms, but that's not my problem and it sure as hell does not make me stupid.

a cultural relativist claims that a person's actions and thinking are defined by that person's culture (which is something you do all the time). a moral relativist claims that there are no universal rules by which we can judge people's behaviour (which you reject). these are 2 independent concepts. and for the record i don't take any of them seriously.

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:09 PM
READ THIS!!! It's hilarious. It shows clearly that azdaja is using words he does not understand!

well, i have the impression that people like you are also undermining the values that we in the west indeed have

NO! I'm defending them.

oh, and you clearly are a member of cultural relativism club and also of one of the wrong sort.

I think the Western culture is better and superior and I'm a member of the cultural relativism club? :haha::haha:

what you meant to say is that you are not a member of moral relativism club. but that's another matter.

It isn't: morals are part of culture.

"values" can't be the root cause for violence and crime.

Then what is? Poverty? But one can react on poverty by accepting it or by being convinced that one has the right to steal. Violence and crime are caused by beliefs people hold, as individuals and as members of a group.

But azdaja, this is the last thing I will say about your relativism theory. I can discuss with people who have a different opinion but I cannot discuss with people who do not know the correct meaning of the words used in the discussion. I have too much selfrespect for that.

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:14 PM
But azdaja, this is the last thing I will say about your relativism theory. I can discuss with people who have a different opinion but I cannot discuss with people who do not know the correct meaning of the words used in the discussion. I have too much selfrespect for that.
*sigh*

these wikipedia articles might help you. they even explain the difference explicitely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:19 PM
and btw, your claim that moral rules are a part of culture is just another example of cultural relativism. for example, i am convinced that moral rules are universal and a property of human mind.

Hagar
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=azdaja]*sigh*

these wikipedia articles might help you. they even explain the difference explicitely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism[/QUOTE=azdaja]

I was already looking it up before you gave me the link. My desire for truth and knowledge are after all stronger than my pride. :)
YES, YOU ARE RIGHT.
And I AM WRONG! Note it coz I don't say that too often. :devil:
:silly: me. (Don't we have a blush smiley? :angel: ). My apologies.

So:I am a moral relativist!!!
And... back on topic. I don't care how the subgroup in our society of North african origin thinks this murder can be justified, for me it can't and I want the culprits to be punished according to the laws of MY country (they can be glad they are not in the USA).

azdaja
Apr 15th, 2006, 09:23 PM
well, alright now at least normal communication is possible ;)

i still disagree with you though, but it's a saturday night and i gotta have some fun.

Tom13
Apr 17th, 2006, 12:00 AM
Maybe not, but that's not the point, unless you want to start a further debate arguing that they might not be in the perilous/unhappy state they are in now if their natural history and evolution had not been wrecked by white imperialism.

Its a shame that there's little or no shame about the Congo in Belgium, Most other countries that indulged in such acts have at least gone through the motions of atonement. ;)

Don't make generalizations. You can't judge belgians on the opinions of a few posters. Actually yes of course most belgians (especially youth) are ashamed about what Belgium has done in Congo. And the vision of Hagar about colonization is at the same time hilarious and pathetic. (The good belgians who have brought the civilization to the brave negros). :rolleyes: No hopefully, nearly nobody think like Hagar here.
To the poster who says that with belgians there would never have been a genocide in Rwanda. :eek: You are totaly wrong that's all the opposite. That's the colonists (germans first, but then belgians) who have introduced the differences beetween hutu and tutsi, who have declacred that the tutsis were less idiots than the hutus. (But still idiots compared to the prodigious intelligence of the white man). So the reality is that without germans and belgians, there would never have been a genocide in Rwanda.

Racism and xenophobia are huge problem in Belgium and this xenophobia is particulary directed against arabs. But this xenophobia exists everywhere in occidentel europe (France, Netherlands, Austria, Danemark, maybe less in the UK). This is an european problem. Actually, I'm afraid that the speech full with hatred of Hagar just reflects what a lot of people think internally but are too ashamed to acknowledge publicly their xenophobia. :sad:

I was in a station of Bruxelles (not the same) wednesday at the same hour with my MP3 player so I could have been a target too but that's not like if these things happen every day.

V.Melb
Apr 17th, 2006, 02:34 AM
Unfortunantly, this incident highlights the problem certain communities have adjusting to the 'european' way of thinking. You must understand that where these people come from, if you want something, you go and kill someone and take it. They are a first generation still adjusting to a more civilized lifestyle, i think this issue will improve itself in a few decades.
I admit this is sad, but i hope people dont attack the muslim/african communities for this, because where they are from, its not such a shocking crime to stab a person to obtain something of small material value. - they are still learning and assimilating slowly into the european community and civilized lifestyle. Give them time.

azdaja
Apr 17th, 2006, 02:36 AM
You must understand that where these people come from, if you want something, you go and kill someone and take it.
that made me laugh, hehe

fifiricci
Apr 17th, 2006, 08:25 AM
Don't make generalizations. You can't judge belgians on the opinions of a few posters. .

Thankfully I don't have to because I know quite a few Belgians. Please therefore rest assured that my judgement of them in no way relies on Hagar's warped and rather repulsive views. ;)

I read about the lack of Belgian "shame" about Congo (maybe thats too strong a word) in the Independent, which is the British broadsheet that I read every day. I read the article some months ago, I think at the time when an exhibition about the Belgian Congo was going on in Brussels.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not singling Belgium out, every country has experiences they would rather gloss over.

:D

Hagar
Apr 17th, 2006, 08:36 AM
They are a first generation still adjusting to a more civilized lifestyle, i think this issue will improve itself in a few decades.

That is not true. Most youngsters are second or third generation. Most of them were born here and have the Belgian nationality.

Hagar
Apr 17th, 2006, 08:54 AM
To all those who are accusing me of hatred, warped and repulsive views, who call my vision pathetic, etc...
I have no intention to accept that I get bashed in this thread! And I think you make yourself guilty of libel especially if you call me a racist because I'm not.
Whenever I see that I am being bashed here, I report it to the Administrators and apparently they take my complaints serious because some posts already disappeared.

I do however believe that you can only solve a problem when you state a correct diagnosis. There is a problem with youngsters of North african origin in Western europe and it can only be solved if is acknowledged.
Now you cannot like my opinion on this but that is no reason to lose your civility. If you want to bash me, badrep me or send me a nasty pm but try to be objective in this topic at least!

Solitaire
Apr 17th, 2006, 09:09 AM
Yes Europeans are so civilized. :rolleyes:

Allez-H
Apr 17th, 2006, 11:47 AM
And what the hell are you doing Hagar? You are disrespecting and bashing not just one lousy poster but a whole part of the population.

I am one of those people you are bashing. I do come from a large family ( 6 children). Does that make us criminals? My parents never thaught me hatred towards the 'white community, but they also thaught never to forget where I came from. I'm a very open person, I was born in Belgium, I'm as Belgian as chocolate (brown chocolate that is :p), I go to Lawschool and try as hard as I can to succeed, I try to respect all and everyone, but because I don't neglect my Moroccan roots I am a no good criminal? I don't wear a headscarf but if I decide to wear it starting today will I be a total different person? Would I deserve to be treated like shit?

Offcourse you can say I'm a girl. You stated that the problem lays with boys. I have four brothers; one owns his own restaurant, the other has been a succesful manager for an ICT-company, one is still studying to become a professor and the other is still in highschool (my sis is a teacher). Never have they commited a crime of any sort. Yet they get all the sqeeuzy looks, or they get refused for appartement application with no reason, or they can't get into normal clubs because it's 'too full' while it's really half empty, or just being put in the cachot for a whole day because the police 'accidently' arrested the wrong guy. And what is this Hagar? Is this what this civilized society is about?

Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge that there is a problem. What happened wednesday is terrible and the person who did that should be putten away behind the bars for the rest of his life. There are a lot of people who condemn this crime, but it doesn't necessarily has to be in as disrespectful way towards a whole community of people like yours. You probably think that all the problems will be solved once Vlaams Belang will have the power in Flanders, well I for one hope they'll win the next elections just so I could prove you wrong ....

fifiricci
Apr 17th, 2006, 12:44 PM
Nice try, Allez H2, but you're wasting your time with her. She considers herself to be racially, morally and intellectually superior to everyone. We can all see that's not true, but she will never accept that, so let's leave her alone now in that bizarre and lonely la la land that is her head. ;)

Mercury Rising
Apr 17th, 2006, 01:44 PM
I read about the lack of Belgian "shame" about Congo (maybe thats too strong a word) in the Independent, which is the British broadsheet that I read every day. I read the article some months ago, I think at the time when an exhibition about the Belgian Congo was going on in Brussels.

I don't think the Brits have ever said any positive about Belgium, if there's something negative to say about us, they're the first to say it. Well that's my feeling anyway...

fifiricci
Apr 17th, 2006, 01:50 PM
I don't think the Brits have ever said any positive about Belgium, if there's something negative to say about us, they're the first to say it. Well that's my feeling anyway...

Are they, I haven't seen the results of any polls, so can't help you there. I know that plenty of Brits like going to Belgium on short breaks (what is there not to like about Bruges, beer and chocolate? ;) ). I've been to Belgium twice now and thought it was nice (only visited Brussels and Antwerp though).

Hagar
Apr 18th, 2006, 08:53 AM
Are they, I haven't seen the results of any polls, so can't help you there. I know that plenty of Brits like going to Belgium on short breaks (what is there not to like about Bruges, beer and chocolate? ;) ). I've been to Belgium twice now and thought it was nice (only visited Brussels and Antwerp though).

Belgium is a lot more than Brugge, chocolate and beer. But it is amazing how some Brits are completely blunt and make one big caricature and cliché of our country. They do it with every country BTW. I guess the reason for this bluntness is that the first thing they do wherever they go is pouring a big quantity of beer in themselves.

Hagar
Apr 18th, 2006, 08:57 AM
And what the hell are you doing Hagar? You are disrespecting and bashing not just one lousy poster but a whole part of the population.

I am one of those people you are bashing.

How on earth am I bashing you? I don't even know you.
I say that there is a problem with the subgroup from Moroccan origin in our society. Scientific reports have said the same.
It is not my problem if you take that personally.

Yasmine
Apr 18th, 2006, 09:06 AM
And what the hell are you doing Hagar? You are disrespecting and bashing not just one lousy poster but a whole part of the population.

I am one of those people you are bashing. I do come from a large family ( 6 children). Does that make us criminals? My parents never thaught me hatred towards the 'white community, but they also thaught never to forget where I came from. I'm a very open person, I was born in Belgium, I'm as Belgian as chocolate (brown chocolate that is :p), I go to Lawschool and try as hard as I can to succeed, I try to respect all and everyone, but because I don't neglect my Moroccan roots I am a no good criminal? I don't wear a headscarf but if I decide to wear it starting today will I be a total different person? Would I deserve to be treated like shit?

Offcourse you can say I'm a girl. You stated that the problem lays with boys. I have four brothers; one owns his own restaurant, the other has been a succesful manager for an ICT-company, one is still studying to become a professor and the other is still in highschool (my sis is a teacher). Never have they commited a crime of any sort. Yet they get all the sqeeuzy looks, or they get refused for appartement application with no reason, or they can't get into normal clubs because it's 'too full' while it's really half empty, or just being put in the cachot for a whole day because the police 'accidently' arrested the wrong guy. And what is this Hagar? Is this what this civilized society is about?

Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge that there is a problem. What happened wednesday is terrible and the person who did that should be putten away behind the bars for the rest of his life. There are a lot of people who condemn this crime, but it doesn't necessarily has to be in as disrespectful way towards a whole community of people like yours. You probably think that all the problems will be solved once Vlaams Belang will have the power in Flanders, well I for one hope they'll win the next elections just so I could prove you wrong ....
Don't waste your time ;) it's dead easy to generalise from people who cause trouble assuming the whole of the morrocan community is full of integrist crap from someone who doesn't know anything about that culture, islam or those people...
I could go on about my personal situation but I won't... I completely understand yours and however civilised the countries we live in are, discrimination does exist and I learnt to live with it;)

Yasmine
Apr 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM
I don't think the Brits have ever said any positive about Belgium, if there's something negative to say about us, they're the first to say it. Well that's my feeling anyway...
the britts don't say anything positive about any country accross the channel on the european mainland;)

Hagar
Apr 18th, 2006, 09:08 AM
I don't wear a headscarf but if I decide to wear it starting today will I be a total different person? Would I deserve to be treated like shit?

Well you would be not positively treated because you would not respect the fact that you live in a society where there is gender equality which means that women do not have to cover their hair.
You chose to live here so you have to adapt to our habits.
YOU CANNOT HAVE IT ALL. Either you live here and you adapt yourself and you are accepted or either you live here and you don't adapt yourself but then people will not like you, will not be keen on giving you a job, having you as a neighbour. If you don't want to adapt, you have to go to a country where you like the habits better.

BTW, it is not your Moroccan roots which would make you wear the headscarf but a strict and inhuman interpretation of Islam. I sometimes watch Moroccan television and I see women without a headscarf there all the time.
The headscarf is a symbol of treating women as secondclass beings and you can argue until you are blue in the face, you will never convince me of the opposite. I base myself on muslims and ex-muslims who have vehemently criticized the headscarf themselves.

Allez-H
Apr 18th, 2006, 09:48 AM
Anywayz, :kiss: to the positive feedback everyone gave minus one person I'll just rest my case now, as all you pointed some people just don't get it ;)

CooCooCachoo
Apr 18th, 2006, 01:11 PM
Well you would be not positively treated because you would not respect the fact that you live in a society where there is gender equality which means that women do not have to cover their hair.

There is no real gender equality in any society. The situation is always skewed in some way. The fact that there may be legal equality does not make this any different.

Moreover, you are are deducing that women do not have to cover their hair because there is gender equality. How weird is that :shrug: Gender equality says nothing about women having to cover their hair. Do you think men have the right to cover their hair, for instance as some Jews do? I bet you think so. If there is gender equality, the same right applies to women. So I do not see your point. Following your logic, gender equality actually means women can cover their hair.

You chose to live here so you have to adapt to our habits.

Many times, people do not choose to live somewhere. They are born somewhere and do not have the opportunity to move. Don't forget that many of the immigrant children that live in 'Western' society live here because their parents were brought here to do the labour 'Western' men and women did not want to do. That is all good, but that means Western society must also accept the consequences. This is not a society in which we can lure women to our country when we need them, and ditch them the second we are fed up with them. It requires a humane approach.

Moreover, the fact that they come here, makes them part of this society. And this refutes your entire way of thinking, as there is no such thing as 'our habits'. 'Our' would refer to all members of this community, whether male or female; from European descent or African / Asian / American / whatever descent; young or old; smart or dumb; Paris Hilton fan or not. And this also illustrates that it is narrow-minded to believe that this hodgepodge of people could actually result in a uniform habit or habitual way of thinking, no matter what arbitrary substructure you take. Men have different habits from women in general, but some women are more masculine, some would argue, than men. This goes for people of different origins, descent and races too. I know some Moroccans that are more Western than I am myself. And yet this does not give them the right to tell me that I should adapt to life here. Nor does it give me the right to tell others off.


YOU CANNOT HAVE IT ALL. Either you live here and you adapt yourself and you are accepted or either you live here and you don't adapt yourself but then people will not like you, will not be keen on giving you a job, having you as a neighbour. If you don't want to adapt, you have to go to a country where you like the habits better.


See above.


BTW, it is not your Moroccan roots which would make you wear the headscarf but a strict and inhuman interpretation of Islam. I sometimes watch Moroccan television and I see women without a headscarf there all the time.
The headscarf is a symbol of treating women as secondclass beings and you can argue until you are blue in the face, you will never convince me of the opposite. I base myself on muslims and ex-muslims who have vehemently criticized the headscarf themselves.

Religion crosses borders, so of course it's not Moroccan roots. Just as Christianity is, or ever was, just strictly German, Dutch, American, Spanish etc. But religion is still an innate part of people and these roots are very important to many people and should be valued. As much as I oppose the institutional frameworks of religion that cause so many problems in this world, the Islam itself is not a bad thing, for it gives many people relief.

I hope you will fall in love with some Islamic person and will be forced to see things the way they really are.

:wavey:

fifiricci
Apr 18th, 2006, 01:31 PM
There is no real gender equality in any society. The situation is always skewed in some way. The fact that there may be legal equality does not make this any different.

Moreover, you are are deducing that women do not have to cover their hair because there is gender equality. How weird is that :shrug: Gender equality says nothing about women having to cover their hair. Do you think men have the right to cover their hair, for instance as some Jews do? I bet you think so. If there is gender equality, the same right applies to women. So I do not see your point. Following your logic, gender equality actually means women can cover their hair.



Many times, people do not choose to live somewhere. They are born somewhere and do not have the opportunity to move. Don't forget that many of the immigrant children that live in 'Western' society live here because their parents were brought here to do the labour 'Western' men and women did not want to do. That is all good, but that means Western society must also accept the consequences. This is not a society in which we can lure women to our country when we need them, and ditch them the second we are fed up with them. It requires a humane approach.

Moreover, the fact that they come here, makes them part of this society. And this refutes your entire way of thinking, as there is no such thing as 'our habits'. 'Our' would refer to all members of this community, whether male or female; from European descent or African / Asian / American / whatever descent; young or old; smart or dumb; Paris Hilton fan or not. And this also illustrates that it is narrow-minded to believe that this hodgepodge of people could actually result in a uniform habit or habitual way of thinking, no matter what arbitrary substructure you take. Men have different habits from women in general, but some women are more masculine, some would argue, than men. This goes for people of different origins, descent and races too. I know some Moroccans that are more Western than I am myself. And yet this does not give them the right to tell me that I should adapt to life here. Nor does it give me the right to tell others off.



See above.



Religion crosses borders, so of course it's not Moroccan roots. Just as Christianity is, or ever was, just strictly German, Dutch, American, Spanish etc. But religion is still an innate part of people and these roots are very important to many people and should be valued. As much as I oppose the institutional frameworks of religion that cause so many problems in this world, the Islam itself is not a bad thing, for it gives many people relief.

I hope you will fall in love with some Islamic person and will be forced to see things the way they really are.

:wavey:

:worship:

Grachka
Apr 18th, 2006, 01:31 PM
Belgium is a lot more than Brugge, chocolate and beer. But it is amazing how some Brits are completely blunt and make one big caricature and cliché of our country. They do it with every country BTW. I guess the reason for this bluntness is that the first thing they do wherever they go is pouring a big quantity of beer in themselves.
I find it ironic, and mildly amusing, that you criticise Brits for generalising and caricaturing your country and then proceed to refer to a caricature of Brits to back it up :lol:

fifiricci
Apr 18th, 2006, 01:42 PM
I find it ironic, and mildly amusing, that you criticise Brits for generalising and caricaturing your country and then proceed to refer to a caricature of Brits to back it up :lol:

:lol:

Cheers! Burp!

azdaja
Apr 18th, 2006, 01:44 PM
I say that there is a problem with the subgroup from Moroccan origin in our society. Scientific reports have said the same.
well, apparently there is another concept that you haven't grasped completely or otherwise you wouldn't call such reports "scientific" :p

Well you would be not positively treated because you would not respect the fact that you live in a society where there is gender equality which means that women do not have to cover their hair.
right, they don't have to, it does not mean that they must not. if a woman chooses to wear a mini skirt that's fine. if she freely decides to wear a headsarf, why not? after all, women also have the right to live modest lives according to their religion if they want to, be it christian or muslim or jewish or whatever.