PDA

View Full Version : Serbia and Montenegro Referendum on 21st May -- what do YOU think?


**Jelica**
Apr 12th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Hi everyone,

Maybe I am tempting danger by creating this thread, but I'm quite curious about this so I decided to risk it!

I was just reading this article http://www.oikotimes.com/site/index.php?id=4324 online about the non-participation of SCG in this year's Eurovision and the reasons behind it. This whole thing with Eurovision probably seems quite petty to people viewing it objectively, but in this country, it has actually upset alot of people and has become very demonstrative of the attitudes and feelings which exist within the republic. As everyone probably knows, there will be a referendum held on the 21st May to decide the future of Serbia-Montenegro and whether the countries will split or the union will continue. At the moment it seems that many Montenegrins are very anxious to have independance from Serbia and since this whole Eurovision thing many Serbs are also feeling a bit "anti-Montenegro". So, I was just wondering what people here think about the situation, especially "ex-Yugo" people. Do you think there is a right and a wrong side? Do you think the union is invalid, or do you think everyone is as much to blame as each other and that it's ridiculous that Serbs and Montenegrins can't live alongside each other happily?

And pleeeease guys, let's keep this peaceful!

matthias
Apr 12th, 2006, 05:47 PM
i惴 german and most likely i have not enough background knowledge about it
but when the union cause so many problems - even in such a nonsense theme like ESC
hen they should split in peace before we see a new war.
thats just my opinion and like i said i have most likely not enough background knowledge about the whole issue

azdaja
Apr 12th, 2006, 05:57 PM
i惴 german and most likely i have not enough background knowledge about it
but when the union cause so many problems - even in such a nonsense theme like ESC
hen they should split in peace before we see a new war.
thats just my opinion and like i said i have most likely not enough background knowledge about the whole issue
the problem is, previous wars in the former yugoslavia were fought because some people wanted to split from the rest of the country, while huge parts of their own population did not (and this was based almost entirely on their ethnicity). essentially, it's not that only the federal states in the former yugoslavia were bitterly divided on the question of independence, but also the populations of each federal state. ignoring this was not a good idea 15 years ago. but then perhaps people did learn something from their mistakes in the past and really feel that this is the way to go. i don't know enough about the present situation to be able to tell.

咖容Less
Apr 12th, 2006, 07:48 PM
it's only referendum in Montenegro. Serbia will accept any result from it! I want Serbia as a separated state from Montenegro, but i'm affraid Montenegrins will decide to stay in state Union with Serbia. But that mean that criminal dictatorship Djukanovic-Vujanovic will fall apart, and that's good. Djukanovic-ex president now prime minister is facing mafia trial in Italy-because of that he wants independent Montenegor so he could be president again in 2 terms, or maybe to life! Both solutions have their advantages :)

**Jelica**
Apr 12th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Obviously as a Serb, and a Serb from Belgrade with Sarajevian roots :p I'm not really in a position where I can say what would be right for Montenegro and what they should want or do. But I can honestly say that I don't want to keep Montenegro part of the Republic because of any interest in a Greater Serbia, nor do I think we have the "right" to govern over them. But it seems ridiculous that we can't live alongside each other, like they do in the UK for example... Scottish people think of themselves as a seperate country and they had devolution and everything, and they are not having all this mess about being independent! I really don't understand how independence would be beneficial to Montenegro... a country of less than 1 million people, which already enjoys a great deal of autonomy. This Eurovision thing for a start shows that their rights are not being neglected in the union! It's not as if independence would benefit them as far as I can see. As for Serbia, that's another big question...

**Jelica**
Apr 12th, 2006, 08:00 PM
it's only referendum in Montenegro. Serbia will accept any result from it! I want Serbia as a separated state from Montenegro, but i'm affraid Montenegrins will decide to stay in state Union with Serbia. But that mean that criminal dictatorship Djukanovic-Vujanovic will fall apart, and that's good. Djukanovic-ex president now prime minister is facing mafia trial in Italy-because of that he wants independent Montenegor so he could be president again in 2 terms, or maybe to life! Both solutions have their advantages :)
I think Serbia can do fine with Montenegro so for us it can be okay for sure... I just hope the outcome doesn;t affect our World Cup team anyway, cos those guys worked so hard and did SO great to get there, imagine if they weren't allowed to participate cos the country didn't exist any more! (although I think it'd be a bit late in the day for that, but we remember 1992)

咖容Less
Apr 12th, 2006, 08:06 PM
"Brazil" ESC entry in 1991 ment the end of ex Yugoslavia- everyone were mad about its selection it finished second last with only 1 point! Last year Montenegro jury made an unfair voting giving all the points to their top song, and giving NO POINTS to two top Serbian songs- one of them was heavenly song with great voice. Serbian jury gave points to Montenegrin winning song. Song finished 7th in ESC finals in Kyiv! This year Montenegrin jury did the same thing-giving NO POINTS to great songs : probably best "Crazy summer dance" from Flamingosi and Romale, Romale! That resulted that the same Montenegrin group won twice in a row at national finals and would go to ESC for two years in a row with pretty much the same boring song as year before! Serbian television director opposed to it, and said he will not respect tribal relations that made montenegrin jury vote in unprofessional way. Song "Crazy summer dance" won 8000 SMS votes more then the winning song, but that didn't help in final score either! Funny thing is that Brazil had lyrics counting countries : Brazil, Spain, Colombia, Cuba and America all do samba, rumba,cha-cha cha. And "crazy summer dance" "Paris, London, Lisabon, Kyiv, Moscow, Prague and Rome, Copenhagen, Budapest -crazy summer dance...

Both songs are up-tempo, great fun, and great coreography...but the last one will not go to Athens after all...

controlfreak
Apr 12th, 2006, 08:33 PM
But it seems ridiculous that we can't live alongside each other, like they do in the UK for example... Scottish people think of themselves as a seperate country and they had devolution and everything, and they are not having all this mess about being independent!

I think there was actually rather a big mess, lasting hundreds of years, before the current situation emerged. 400 years later, the mess has settled down a bit. There's always mess in these types of affairs.

Andy T
Apr 12th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Let the people decide. Before the creation of Yugoslavia in 1918 (I think) Serbia and Montenegro were separate independant kingdoms. They had no choice back then and if now the Montenegrins decide to go their own way, then fair enough. We'll be back to where we were 100 years ago - minus the Kings, unless they decide to restore their monarchies - but in the C21st, even if there are two states, they'll retain close economic ties and quite possibly political ones if they both end up in the European Union. By the by - is it true that there's some support for the restoration of a constitutional monarchy in Serbia under Crown Prince Alexander?

So far, there has been no bloodshed between the Serbs and the Montenegrins and whatever happens in the referendum, I hope that will continue to be the case. The outcome of the talks on the final status of Kosovo is far more worrying to me.....

Joana
Apr 12th, 2006, 09:01 PM
By the by - is it true that there's some support for the restoration of a constitutional monarchy in Serbia under Crown Prince Alexander?


That idea has very little support. And I am extremely against it - that guy cannot even speak Serbian.


So far, there has been no bloodshed between the Serbs and the Montenegrins and whatever happens in the referendum, I hope that will continue to be the case.


Serbia will definitely not intervene and in fact I believe that the majority of Serbs (myself included) are for separate countries. The internal situation in Montenegro is the problem as roughly 50% of the population are for and 50% are against the independence. So no matter what happens, one half of the country will be extremely pissed off.


The outcome of the talks on the final status of Kosovo is far more worrying to me.....

There's only one solution and everybody knows it: independent Kosovo. The sooner people accept it, the better it will be for everyone.

Grachka
Apr 12th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Scottish people think of themselves as a seperate country and they had devolution and everything, and they are not having all this mess about being independent!
There has been mess for eons and eons, and it's only been OK in the last century or so.

However, everyone is getting pissed off with the current devolution arrangements. There is going to be a fuss kicked up in the near future because the Scottish administration is widely seen as incompetent. The main opposition, and most likely heirs to power, are....separatists! ;)

I don't know a great deal about the Montenegran situation though...

azdaja
Apr 12th, 2006, 11:08 PM
Top ten reasons for being Montenegrin:
1. You can be proud of your heroic past and not being conquered by the Turks for 500 years.
2. You can sing epic songs about your heroic past and not being conquered by the Turks for 500 years.
3. You can think of Russia as your Mother, although Russia does not know you are her son.
4. You can combine orthodoxy with Stalinism with love of Russia and still think that you are better and more progressive than the Serbs.
5. Goat cheese, grilled lamb, and grappa.
6. You get to kill at least one person in a vendetta and defend your honor.
7. If you are a woman you can kill your husband and everyone knows why you did it.
8. You can smuggle cigarettes to Italy and live like a king.
9. You don't have to work even when you have to.
10.You don't have to work....

Andy T
Apr 13th, 2006, 09:37 AM
That idea has very little support. And I am extremely against it - that guy cannot even speak Serbian.



Serbia will definitely not intervene and in fact I believe that the majority of Serbs (myself included) are for separate countries. The internal situation in Montenegro is the problem as roughly 50% of the population are for and 50% are against the independence. So no matter what happens, one half of the country will be extremely pissed off.



There's only one solution and everybody knows it: independent Kosovo. The sooner people accept it, the better it will be for everyone.

Thanks Joana for this reply. I guess the report I read (can't remember where) about Alexander was totally unrepresentative!

More questions:

How much of that 50% against independence is made up of the large Serbian minority in Montenegro?

Are the Kosovars ethnic Albanians or muslim Serbs/Slavs? Is there support in Kosovo for unification with Albania? I find it hard to see how Kosovo could be a viable independent state....

Lord Nelson
Apr 13th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Thanks Joana for this reply. I guess the report I read (can't remember where) about Alexander was totally unrepresentative!

More questions:

How much of that 50% against independence is made up of the large Serbian minority in Montenegro?

Are the Kosovars ethnic Albanians or muslim Serbs/Slavs? Is there support in Kosovo for unification with Albania? I find it hard to see how Kosovo could be a viable independent state....
The kosovars are ethnic Albanians and are then not slavs. I doubt that the majority of them want to unify with Albania because they speak a different dialect with those from Tirana. The majority of them are Muslim just like in Albania where around 70% of the population are so. But there are prominent minorites include Mother Theresa an ethnic Albanian from Macedonia who was of course Roman Catholic and so was Skendenberg one of Albania's national heros.

Muslim Slavs do exist such as the Muslims from Bosnia who are called Bosniaks by int. community. The footballer Ibrahimovic is one though his Mum is Croat. The tennis player Ivan Lujbujic is originally from Bosnia but his parents are ethnic Croats.

There is no such thing as a Serb minority in Montenegro. Montenegrins (or Monte Negros) are really Serbs but the region was made as such by Tito because it used to be independant once upon a time as a monarchy. The Serb Radvan Karadzic was born in Montenegro and Milosevic's ancestors were born there too. His daughter now considers herself as an inhabitant of Montenegro.

Scotso
Apr 13th, 2006, 01:46 PM
Would it not be economic suicide for Montenegro to split?

Joana
Apr 13th, 2006, 01:49 PM
There is no such thing as a Serb minority in Montenegro. Montenegrins (or Monte Negros) are really Serbs but the region was made as such by Tito because it used to be independant once upon a time as a monarchy. The Serb Radvan Karadzic was born in Montenegro and Milosevic's ancestors were born there too. His daughter now considers herself as an inhabitant of Montenegro.

Actually, there is. According to the latest census from 2003, Serbs make up 30% of the population of Montenegro. The rest are Montenegrins (43%), Bosniaks and Albanians. Many Montenegrins don't view themselves as Serbs. But also, not all of those who view themselves as Montenegrins want independence.

Joana
Apr 13th, 2006, 01:55 PM
Are the Kosovars ethnic Albanians or muslim Serbs/Slavs? Is there support in Kosovo for unification with Albania? I find it hard to see how Kosovo could be a viable independent state....

The Kosovars are ethnic Albanians. However, I'm not sure all of them support unification with Albania, although some of them certainly do. There are some differences between the Albanians from Albania and those from Kosovo, their mentalities are quite different and Kosovars speak a different dialect.

Albanians also make up 25% of the population of Macedonia.

azdaja
Apr 13th, 2006, 02:01 PM
from wikipedia:
Montenegrin and Serb identities are not exclusive and the size of each group varies with each census, due to political events and as people view themselves, on balance, as more one than the other. A "Montenegrin" may view himself as a "Serb" as well, and vice versa. Of course, in both groups there are those who view themselves as belonging to one group exclusively.

Lord Nelson
Apr 13th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Actually, there is. According to the latest census from 2003, Serbs make up 30% of the population of Montenegro. The rest are Montenegrins (43%), Bosniaks and Albanians. Many Montenegrins don't view themselves as Serbs. But also, not all of those who view themselves as Montenegrins want independence.
The census identifies a Serb in Montenegro as one who migrated there recently. But aside form that there is not much to distinguish a Serb and a Montenegrin and let that be so. I am against independance of the region and this may not happen. If less than 50% of the electorate votes on the referendum than the vote will be nullified and you can bet that many who are against independance will boycott the vote.

Andy T
Apr 13th, 2006, 03:37 PM
The Kosovars are ethnic Albanians. However, I'm not sure all of them support unification with Albania, although some of them certainly do. There are some differences between the Albanians from Albania and those from Kosovo, their mentalities are quite different and Kosovars speak a different dialect.

Albanians also make up 25% of the population of Macedonia.

Thanks for these informative answers, Joana. On the Kosovo question, I guess one other crucial factor is that Kosovo has never been part of Albania, has it? If Kosovo does go it alone, is there any way that borders can be renegotiated/ redrawn to enable some of the Serbs there to remain part of Serbia?

Joana
Apr 13th, 2006, 04:15 PM
Thanks for these informative answers, Joana. On the Kosovo question, I guess one other crucial factor is that Kosovo has never been part of Albania, has it? If Kosovo does go it alone, is there any way that borders can be renegotiated/ redrawn to enable some of the Serbs there to remain part of Serbia?

You're welcome! :)
Kosovo has been a part of Albania during the WW2, but it was under Italian occupation.

There is some possibility for the change of the borders. The extreme north of Kosovo (around the town of Kosovska Mitrovica) is still predominantly Serbian, so some suggest that this part should be ceded to Serbia. However, the Albanians are strongly against it. There is also a possibility that 3 municipalities in the south of Serbia (not belonging to Kosovo) with the Albanian majority be exchanged for the northern Kosovo. But in that case Serbia would lose the transportation routes with Macedonia and Greece and certainly the economy would suffer.
It's all very complicated...

azdaja
Apr 13th, 2006, 04:25 PM
it depends on what americans decide to support, blatantly.

Andy T
Apr 13th, 2006, 05:12 PM
You're welcome! :)
Kosovo has been a part of Albania during the WW2, but it was under Italian occupation.

There is some possibility for the change of the borders. The extreme north of Kosovo (around the town of Kosovska Mitrovica) is still predominantly Serbian, so some suggest that this part should be ceded to Serbia. However, the Albanians are strongly against it. There is also a possibility that 3 municipalities in the south of Serbia (not belonging to Kosovo) with the Albanian majority be exchanged for the northern Kosovo. But in that case Serbia would lose the transportation routes with Macedonia and Greece and certainly the economy would suffer.
It's all very complicated...

It sounds complicated.... I hope they find a peaceful compromise.

Lord Nelson
Apr 13th, 2006, 07:18 PM
You're welcome! :)
Kosovo has been a part of Albania during the WW2, but it was under Italian occupation.

There is some possibility for the change of the borders. The extreme north of Kosovo (around the town of Kosovska Mitrovica) is still predominantly Serbian, so some suggest that this part should be ceded to Serbia. However, the Albanians are strongly against it. There is also a possibility that 3 municipalities in the south of Serbia (not belonging to Kosovo) with the Albanian majority be exchanged for the northern Kosovo. But in that case Serbia would lose the transportation routes with Macedonia and Greece and certainly the economy would suffer.
It's all very complicated...
Northern Kosovo and southern Serbia with Kosovar people they should have a population exchange between these 2 lands or Serbia should keep northern Kosovo and still keep Southern part of Serbia with Albanian majority.
By the way I too answered all of Andy T's questions and he did not thank me. He must have a thing for you. :p ;)

SloKid
Apr 13th, 2006, 07:44 PM
Lord Nelson mentioned Tito only once in this thread and that mention was only brief :speakles:

Lord Nelson
Apr 13th, 2006, 07:53 PM
Lord Nelson mentioned Tito only once in this thread and that mention was only brief :speakles:
Why are you so fascinated by Tito? I know that you are Slovene but the guy butchered the Serbs by giving Kosovo autonomous status, creating Bosnia (and including large areas of Serb dominated regions) and even making voyvodina an autonomous part of Serbia even though Serbs are the majority there. Of course the half Croat guy that he is, he did not do the same for Krajina. :rolleyes:
Believe me if Mihailovic had won the power struggle with Tito, Yugoslavia would still be intact today. The power of monarchy has wonders as we can see in other multiethnic nations in Europe such as Spain and Great Britain. If these two were communist bye bye basque, catalonia, Scotland etc...

But don't worry I like how Tito was a womanizer and had many women and children. He was a mini Ibn Saud. Damn, makes me want to be a politician. :devil:

SloKid
Apr 13th, 2006, 07:58 PM
And there you go again. You seem to have a Tito fetish, not me...

Chris 84
Apr 13th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Why are you so fascinated by Tito? I know that you are Slovene but the guy butchered the Serbs by giving Kosovo autonomous status, creating Bosnia (and including large areas of Serb dominated regions) and even making voyvodina an autonomous part of Serbia even though Serbs are the majority there. Of course the half Croat guy that he is, he did not do the same for Krajina. :rolleyes:
Believe me if Mihailovic had won the power struggle with Tito, Yugoslavia would still be intact today. The power of monarchy has wonders as we can see in other multiethnic nations in Europe such as Spain and Great Britain. If these two were communist bye bye basque, catalonia, Scotland etc...

But don't worry I like how Tito was a womanizer and had many women and children. He was a mini Ibn Saud. Damn, makes me want to be a politician. :devil:

That sounds like a dream to me....Scotland, Catalonia and the Basque country free from the nations that rule over them :yeah:

azdaja
Apr 13th, 2006, 09:18 PM
That sounds like a dream to me....Scotland, Catalonia and the Basque country free from the nations that rule over them :yeah:
i very much doubt that you can compare situations, though. spain is considerably different from the uk. besides, federations are not necessarily bad. i suppose the most important question is who leads the quest for independance and for what reasons.

**Jelica**
Apr 13th, 2006, 11:18 PM
You aren't meant to say Bosnjak actually, it's considered kind of rude... well, it is if a Serb says it so I think the same rule should apply worldwide!

Serbs and Montenegrins are different, if not actually "ethnically" in terms of history, tradition, language etc. I guess much the same as English and Scottish or Spanish and Catalan. I guess those people manage to live alongside each other in a nation together even if they'd rather not, but the history of the Balkan region for the Serbs and Montenegrins makes that impossible (although I don't see how Montenegro will benefit economically either, despite the fact that Serbia's economy is not exactly flying)

**Jelica**
Apr 13th, 2006, 11:21 PM
The Kosovo question is difficult, as far as I'm concerned Serbia should give it up, but many people feel very strongly otherwise because of the history of the area. I'd say the future was more important however.

And I didn't make this thread so that everyone could have an argument about Tito. If you wanna do that, go make a Tito thread or something.

Andy T
Apr 14th, 2006, 10:26 AM
Northern Kosovo and southern Serbia with Kosovar people they should have a population exchange between these 2 lands or Serbia should keep northern Kosovo and still keep Southern part of Serbia with Albanian majority.
By the way I too answered all of Andy T's questions and he did not thank me. He must have a thing for you. :p ;)

I beg your pardon, Lord Nelson. I missed your reply...........

Andy T
May 2nd, 2006, 11:51 AM
so what's the latest on this story?

Joana
May 2nd, 2006, 01:10 PM
so what's the latest on this story?

Nothing new, at least that I know of. Both groups (unionists and separatists) are busy campaigning. Only 3 weeks to go now.

Andy T
May 2nd, 2006, 03:47 PM
Nothing new, at least that I know of. Both groups (unionists and separatists) are busy campaigning. Only 3 weeks to go now.

Thanks Joana. According to the opinion polls, which way is it likely to go?

Joana
May 2nd, 2006, 04:47 PM
Thanks Joana. According to the opinion polls, which way is it likely to go?

Depends on who you ask. :lol: Both groups say they have more support.
55% of the votes is necessary for the declaration of independence - it's certain they'll have more than 50% but less than 60%. We'll see if that's going to be enough.

Anyway, I wish the separatists won with a clear margin. 53% win (or something similar) would be the worst outcome, it would just make the things even more ugly and complicated.

azdaja
May 21st, 2006, 10:29 PM
so the referendum's completed, first results are in. how do people feel about all this now?

Joana
May 21st, 2006, 10:47 PM
Well, this is not over yet. The first estimate was 56.3% for indepenent Montenegro (about 2 hours ago). The final estimate is 55.3% - 1% less. This is just the estimate, not the final result. Independentists have already started celebrating after the first estimate was announced, but it could be very interesting now.

azdaja
May 21st, 2006, 10:56 PM
Well, this is not over yet. The first estimate was 56.3% for indepenent Montenegro (about 2 hours ago). The final estimate is 55.3% - 1% less. This is just the estimate, not the final result. Independentists have already started celebrating after the first estimate was announced, but it could be very interesting now.
the website of austrian tv reports it's only 55.1% now. if the trend continues some people will end up being very dissappointed. kinda like football fans who celebrate victory before the match is over.

Joana
May 21st, 2006, 11:01 PM
I'm watching the celebrations in Podgorica and I find it a bit sad. Any kind of nationalistic euphoria is repulsive to me and what's going on there is clearly oevr the top. After having seen all this, it's pretty clear to me now: we cannot live together any longer.

dementieva's fan
May 21st, 2006, 11:04 PM
IMO, this is all a load of crap. I don't see how either of the two countries will benefit from seperation. It wil be a huge economic disaster for both the countries. During the 1995 Quebec referndum the economies of Canada and Quebec dipped and had Quebec seperated thousands of jobs would have been lost in both the regions. The same will probably happen there and they already don't have a really good economy in Serbia. The seperatists are the most illogical people, voting for seperaion thinking "it's so cool to have a country of your own" without looking at its economic implications :rolleyes:. I hope seperation does not happen there.

dementieva's fan
May 21st, 2006, 11:07 PM
the website of austrian tv reports it's only 55.1% now. if the trend continues some people will end up being very dissappointed. kinda like football fans who celebrate victory before the match is over.

The whole system is flawed ,on such important issues simple majority should not be applicable. 51% people can create shit for the rest 49%. It should be more like atleast 70 % of people must approve in order for the seperation to happen.

Chris 84
May 21st, 2006, 11:10 PM
the website of austrian tv reports it's only 55.1% now. if the trend continues some people will end up being very dissappointed. kinda like football fans who celebrate victory before the match is over.

Things could be really screwed up if 55% isn't achieved :tape:

Chris 84
May 21st, 2006, 11:12 PM
I'm watching the celebrations in Podgorica and I find it a bit sad. Any kind of nationalistic euphoria is repulsive to me and what's going on there is clearly oevr the top. After having seen all this, it's pretty clear to me now: we cannot live together any longer.

I agree totally.....nationalistic euphoria is one of the most repulsive (and dangerous) moods possible.

Although obviously I can't see what's going on in Podgorica.

azdaja
May 21st, 2006, 11:20 PM
IMO, this is all a load of crap. I don't see how either of the two countries will benefit from seperation. It wil be a huge economic disaster for both the countries. During the 1995 Quebec referndum the economies of Canada and Quebec dipped and had Quebec seperated thousands of jobs would have been lost in both the regions. The same will probably happen there and they already don't have a really good economy in Serbia. The seperatists are the most illogical people, voting for seperaion thinking "it's so cool to have a country of your own" without looking at its economic implications :rolleyes:. I hope seperation does not happen there.
the balkans needs economic integration badly, but in poor countries people tend to get a bit delusional about prospect that independence would bring.

Joana
May 21st, 2006, 11:30 PM
Now it's official: the results won't be announced tonight.

There were 3 NGOs monitoring the voting and estimating the results. One of them (CEMI) was the first to announce the estimated result - 56.3% and they said it was impossible to change by more then 0.1 or 0.2%. And as I said, the separatists started celebrating then.
However, a couple of hours later, they announced a slightly different result - 55.3%. They again say it almost impossible to change. 55.3% is the official estimate of 2 monitoring parties - CEMI and CESID. The third one declared that the results are too close to call and refused to give any announcement.
The prime minister of Montenegro (and the leader of separatists) Milo Djukanovic was nowehere to be seen tonight.

It's very, very interesting.

azdaja
May 21st, 2006, 11:44 PM
The third one declared that the results are too close to call and refused to give any announcement.
well, given the results so far that's very sensible.

requiem
May 21st, 2006, 11:45 PM
As only one from montenero i think i should say a few thing. I'm a Montenegrin and don't consider myself as Serb. Many serbs have tendencies to look at as we are less then them (look at the post #13).

As for Montenegro it was internationaly recognized at Congress of Berlin 1878, but the truth is that it was independent for years before that. In those days, capitol was Cetinje, and the Osman empire managed only 3 times to enter the city, and of course burn it to the ground, but never they managed to stay in it, they had to flee. And of course we are proud of it, as being only small piece of land not under the rule of Osman, Austro-hungarian or Venice. 1918 we were forced into union with serbia (our king had to flee from country), later to form kingdom SHS what is later named kingdom yugoslavia.

One of the important things is that you just can't form country with such big disproporsion that is in Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia has like 10.000.000 poeple and there are just less than 700.000 of people in Montenegro. We would always be less important part of this country. I want indipendence for Serbia and indipendence for Montenegro. As for integations, they will happen when we go into EU.

And another note. In 10th century was the first of Montenegrin countries called Duklja (Dioclea), that was kingdom in late 10th century. I beleive that for many reasons we should live in seperate countries.

Joana
May 21st, 2006, 11:48 PM
well, given the results so far that's very sensible.

I agree. I don't know what on earth were the people from CEMI thinking to announce the (incorrect) results so early.

Joana
May 21st, 2006, 11:50 PM
As only one from montenero i think i should say a few thing. I'm a Montenegrin and don't consider myself as Serb. Many serbs have tendencies to look at as we are less then them (look at the post #13).



I believe azdaja was just joking and he's actually part-Montenegrin himself. And please, don't tell me you don't have similar stereotypes about the Serbs. If I got a dollar every time I heard "those people from Belgrade are _____________" coming from the Montenegrins.

Chris 84
May 21st, 2006, 11:52 PM
As only one from montenero i think i should say a few thing. I'm a Montenegrin and don't consider myself as Serb. Many serbs have tendencies to look at as we are less then them (look at the post #13).

As for Montenegro it was internationaly recognized at Congress of Berlin 1878, but the truth is that it was independent for years before that. In those days, capitol was Cetinje, and the Osman empire managed only 3 times to enter the city, and of course burn it to the ground, but never they managed to stay in it, they had to flee. And of course we are proud of it, as being only small piece of land not under the rule of Osman, Austro-hungarian or Venice. 1918 we were forced into union with serbia (our king had to flee from country), later to form kingdom SHS what is later named kingdom yugoslavia.

One of the important things is that you just can't form country with such big disproporsion that is in Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia has like 10.000.000 poeple and there are just less than 700.000 of people in Montenegro. We would always be less important part of this country. I want indipendence for Serbia and indipendence for Montenegro. As for integations, they will happen when we go into EU.

And another note. In 10th century was the first of Montenegrin countries called Duklja (Dioclea), that was kingdom in late 10th century. I beleive that for many reasons we should live in seperate countries.

I think post number 13 was just a joke ;)

requiem
May 21st, 2006, 11:58 PM
I agree. I don't know what on earth were the people from CEMI thinking to announce the (incorrect) results so early.

They weren't incorrect, they were incomplete. And they would always say how much of the votes were counted, and latest is that on 99.85 counted votes it is 55.5% for indipendence of Montenegro. Reason why CDT didn't want to give results is because they statisticly try to guess the ressult and because it was so thight they probably didn't want to do so, because it is hard to guess when it is so close (Note to those who don't know it was needed 55% to gain indipendence)

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 12:00 AM
I think post number 13 was just a joke ;)

Yes and no. I live here and I think I should now better. It is a joke but it's also part of prejudice toward us

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 12:06 AM
Yes and no. I live here and I think I should now better. It is a joke but it's also part of prejudice toward us
dude, it WAS a joke, there are similar lists for other people from the former yugoslavia, including the serbs. they were kinda popular for years and shit.

and yes, i am part montenegrin.

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 12:29 AM
You meant it like a joke and it's OK. But it doesn't change the fact that they tend to think less of us (not all of them, probably not even the majority, but loudest one, definitely), especialy when someone clearly says he's not a Serb, but Montenegrin.

Fidello
May 22nd, 2006, 12:30 AM
Am I the only one from Serbia who is pissed off with this whole thing?! In the situation where most of the people in Serbia are for independency, we must wait for a few Montenegrins to decide what to do with us. This referendum should have been organized in Serbia primarily, and only then in Montenegro.
And yeah, congratulations to Montenegrins!

dementieva's fan
May 22nd, 2006, 12:34 AM
As only one from montenero i think i should say a few thing. I'm a Montenegrin and don't consider myself as Serb. Many serbs have tendencies to look at as we are less then them (look at the post #13).

As for Montenegro it was internationaly recognized at Congress of Berlin 1878, but the truth is that it was independent for years before that. In those days, capitol was Cetinje, and the Osman empire managed only 3 times to enter the city, and of course burn it to the ground, but never they managed to stay in it, they had to flee. And of course we are proud of it, as being only small piece of land not under the rule of Osman, Austro-hungarian or Venice. 1918 we were forced into union with serbia (our king had to flee from country), later to form kingdom SHS what is later named kingdom yugoslavia.

One of the important things is that you just can't form country with such big disproporsion that is in Serbia and Montenegro. Serbia has like 10.000.000 poeple and there are just less than 700.000 of people in Montenegro. We would always be less important part of this country. I want indipendence for Serbia and indipendence for Montenegro. As for integations, they will happen when we go into EU.

And another note. In 10th century was the first of Montenegrin countries called Duklja (Dioclea), that was kingdom in late 10th century. I beleive that for many reasons we should live in seperate countries.

Do you realize the economic implications it will have, esp on your country?

Joana
May 22nd, 2006, 12:47 AM
Djukanovic shows up and announces - 55.5% voted "YES".
So, I guess that's it. Finally! Congratulations to Montenegrins.

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 12:54 AM
Too bad for you Serbs that the EU did put the barrier at 60% instead of 55% for vote for independance. I believe it becoming a EU member that made some Montenegrins to vote for independance (foolishly thinking that they would joing EU faster than Serbia which will not be the case since countries like Bulgaria cannot join EU without Romania and vice versa). Ironically joining the EU could make many Moldovans who are ethnic Romanians wanting their nation, Moldova join Romania which most likely will be in the EU next year.

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 12:57 AM
Too bad for you Serbs that the EU did put the barrier at 60% instead of 55% for vote for independance. I believe it becoming a EU member that made some Montenegrins to vote for independance (foolishly thinking that they would joing EU faster than Serbia which will not be the case since countries like Bulgaria cannot join EU without Romania and vice versa). Ironically joining the EU could make many Moldovans who are ethnic Romanians wanting their nation, Moldova join Romania which most likely will be in the EU next year.

Why is it too bad for Serbs? From what I can see, many Serbs are pro-independence :shrug:

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 01:01 AM
You meant it like a joke and it's OK. But it doesn't change the fact that they tend to think less of us (not all of them, probably not even the majority, but loudest one, definitely), especialy when someone clearly says he's not a Serb, but Montenegrin.
perhaps, but such things were never a reason for declaring independence. but i don't care anyway, so it's ok :p

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 01:02 AM
Why is it too bad for Serbs? From what I can see, many Serbs are pro-independence :shrug:
Montenegrins are very much Serb. they speak the same language, have same religion, same culture etc. I believe that they speak the language with same accent unlike Scots and English people. It is only because the region used to be a monarchy in ancient times that the region was given its own Republic within Yugoslavia by the not very bright Communists. But the Serbs did not say anything, even when Bosnia was carved out of many Serb regions to form its own republic. Serbs let themselves be bullied by Communists. :sad:

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 01:05 AM
Do you realize the economic implications it will have, esp on your country?

Well here is one. Most important for Montenegro is tourism. When someone from western countries sees Serbia and Montenegro, I think he belevies somethink like Ouch because he probably doesn't know nothinh about how it's here. And it's only because he sees Serbia. But with independence he will see only Montenegro, and generelly he wan't have negative conotations when it's only Montenegro.

Joana
May 22nd, 2006, 01:09 AM
Well here is one. Most important for Montenegro is tourism. When someone from western countries sees Serbia and Montenegro, I think he belevies somethink like Ouch because he probably doesn't know nothinh about how it's here. And it's only because he sees Serbia. But with independence he will see only Montenegro, and generelly he wan't have negative conotations when it's only Montenegro.

Yes. Serbia is evil and pulling you down.

You know, tourists want things like running water in hotels and polite waiters and such.

Josh
May 22nd, 2006, 01:11 AM
I repeat my question (which should have been posted in this thread anyway :o) :

Why is Serbia always the bad guy? :shrug:

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 01:14 AM
I repeat my question (which should have been posted in this thread anyway :o) :

Why is Serbia always the bad guy? :shrug:
because the powerful nations are against it, i suppose.

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 01:14 AM
Well here is one. Most important for Montenegro is tourism. When someone from western countries sees Serbia and Montenegro, I think he belevies somethink like Ouch because he probably doesn't know nothinh about how it's here. And it's only because he sees Serbia. But with independence he will see only Montenegro, and generelly he wan't have negative conotations when it's only Montenegro.
:lol:

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 01:17 AM
Yes. Serbia is evil and pulling you down.

You know, tourists want things like running water in hotels and polite waiters and such.

No, they are not evil, it is just the way how people on west think about them. And it's not good for us.

As for second you're right, and I'm hoping we're getting there.

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 01:19 AM
because the powerful nations are against it, i suppose.

You're right.

Joana
May 22nd, 2006, 01:25 AM
I repeat my question (which should have been posted in this thread anyway :o) :

Why is Serbia always the bad guy? :shrug:

Because it's always easier to blame Serbia for all your own fuck-ups.
Not talking about the West, obviously. I don't believe they really think about us.

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 01:33 AM
Because it's always easier to blame Serbia for all your own fuck-ups.
Nothing talking about the West, obviously. I don't think believe they really think about us.
Well, the Communists constitution was not great, if a monarchy system had been set up for all of Yugolslavia and Serbs had a region for all of their land, Croats for all of their land, Slovenes for all of their land and the others such as Macedonians and Albanians (kosovars are albanians and albanians have their own land) joined one of those 3 regions than there may still have been a Yugoslavia today. Just look at Spain and Great Britain, 2 other nations which are diverse but where the monarchy system has prevented these nations from collapsing. I believe the Serb hero, Mihailovic wanted to set up a Yugoslavian monarchy but was let down by the allies who for some insane reason decided to back Tito during World War II who murdered Mihailovicas the good communist he was. :rolleyes: I guess back then communists were not the enemy. :o

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 01:39 AM
Well, the Communists constitution was not great, if a monarchy system had been set up for all of Yugolslavia and Serbs had a region for all of their land, Croats for all of their land, Slovenes for all of their land and the others such as Macedonians and Albanians (kosovars are albanians and albanians have their own land) joined one of those 3 regions than there may still have been a Yugoslavia today. Just look at Spain and Great Britain, 2 other nations which are diverse but where the monarchy system has prevented these nations from collapsing. I believe the Serb hero, Mihailovic wanted to set up a Yugoslavian monarchy but was let down by the allies who for some insane reason decided to back Tito during World War II who murdered Mihailovicas the good communist he was. :rolleyes: I guess back then communists were not the enemy. :o

:haha: :haha: :haha:

Long live the monarchy!! God save the queen!! :rolleyes:
That sentence is one of your more nonsensical that I've seen :lol:

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 01:56 AM
No, they are not evil, it is just the way how people on west think about them. And it's not good for us.
but isn't that a bit pathetic? you disagree with the way serbs are perceived in the west, but you want independance so montenegro can be more marketable as a tourist destination? even if we assume this marketing assumption is correct, nation states are supposed to stand for something.

anyway, congratulations to those who feel happy about results. to those who may be upset, i hope things won't be too bad for you in the end.

rada
May 22nd, 2006, 03:03 AM
Serbia has lost so much already montenegro is the last off the problems.

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 10:18 AM
but isn't that a bit pathetic? you disagree with the way serbs are perceived in the west, but you want independance so montenegro can be more marketable as a tourist destination? even if we assume this marketing assumption is correct, nation states are supposed to stand for something.

anyway, congratulations to those who feel happy about results. to those who may be upset, i hope things won't be too bad for you in the end.


I was asked about "the economic implications" of indipendence, and I answered to that, not saying that is the reason for independence.

We want to have our country, and I beleive that anyone who wants that should be able to do so, as we did.

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 12:02 PM
I was asked about "the economic implications" of indipendence, and I answered to that, not saying that is the reason for independence.

We want to have our country, and I beleive that anyone who wants that should be able to do so, as we did.
fair enough, but the serbs are not perceived as negatively as you might think. i'm kinda curious how things will develop now, given that the eu did not support montenegrin independence. comments in the business press here also don't suggest that a flood of investment is imminent.

your comment about my supposedly bad post about montenegrins brought me a bad rep by some random brainless poster, btw. out to all the people who are too dumb to recognise a joke :tape:

Ems__
May 22nd, 2006, 12:11 PM
As far as I'm concerned those 'international' montenegran students better pay us good money studying in our universities ;)

I'm actually happy about this...but slightly irritated at the celebrations in Podogorica, they made it out so that it looked like they were opressed, when that was not the case at all... :rolleyes:

And this is coming from a part Montenegran...

By the way does anyone know whether our World Cup team will be playing for Serbia or SCG? And what happens to the rest of our sports people? And more importantly what happens to the 200,000 Montenegrans in Serbia? Will they have to obtain visas for their residence in Serbia?

Joana
May 22nd, 2006, 12:28 PM
By the way does anyone know whether our World Cup team will be playing for Serbia or SCG? And what happens to the rest of our sports people? And more importantly what happens to the 200,000 Montenegrans in Serbia? Will they have to obtain visas for their residence in Serbia?

Football team will play as SCG and so will all other teams in undergoing competitions. After that the athletes will decide which country they will play for... That could be interesting.
I don't know what will happen to the Montenegrins in Serbia. I guess some of them will apply for Serbian citizenship. Some will return to Montenegro. But I think both governments will reach certain agreements and the situation won't change significantly.

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 12:53 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:

Long live the monarchy!! God save the queen!! :rolleyes:
That sentence is one of your more nonsensical that I've seen :lol:
Laugh if you must but your country Scotland is part of Britain thanks to the monarchy. If Cromwell had succeeded in making UK a republic, Scotland woiuld be independant for quite sometime today. Bu then again Ireland where majority are Catholics, broke away from the Kingdom and though Catalans, Basques are different from Spaniards, they all are Catholics. But what is certain is that the vision of the Yugoslav monarchs was to create a Kingdom od Serbs, Croats and Slovenes so the country could have been less divided today if the monarchist systen had survived.
p.s I am no monarchist but this systen is good for nations that are very diverse like Spain, UK. On the other hand Sweden, Norway have absolutely no neeed of this system.
p.p.s I could not help asking, if you are a guy why do you have that signature of yours. :confused:

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 12:59 PM
Laugh if you must but your country Scotland is part of Britain thanks to the monarchy. If Cromwell had succeeded in making UK a republic, Scotland woiuld be independant for quite sometime today. Bu then again Ireland where majority are Catholics, broke away from the Kingdom and though Catalans, Basques are different from Spaniards, they all are Catholics. But what is certain is that the vision of the Yugoslav monarchs was to create a Kingdom od Serbs, Croats and Slovenes so the country could have been less divided today if the monarchist systen had survived.
p.s I am no monarchist but this systen is good for nations that are very diverse like Spain, UK. On the other hand Sweden, Norway have absolutely no neeed of this system.
p.p.s I could not help asking, if you are a guy why do you have that signature of yours. :confused:

Scotland was not unified with England until long after the "English" Civil War and Cromwell. Although James VI of Scotland became James I of England, Scotland was still recognised as a distinct nation until the early 18th Century.

Please tell me exactly how it is that the UK monarchy unites everyone? And how do France and America manage to be republics when they are such diverse nations?

p.p.s I have that signature of mine to confuse morons :D

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 01:06 PM
Scotland was not unified with England until long after the "English" Civil War and Cromwell. Although James VI of Scotland became James I of England, Scotland was still recognised as a distinct nation until the early 18th Century.

Please tell me exactly how it is that the UK monarchy unites everyone? And how do France and America manage to be republics when they are such diverse nations?

p.p.s I have that signature of mine to confuse morons :D
Who is the moron here, you are asking questions that have obvious answers. UK is united because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not independant, comprendo? Man you are doing it on purpose admit it. Yeah sure, they all have significant autonomy but Britain is one country. Tim Henman, Murray play for Britain. As for Football, the Brits invented it so they can tamper with the system and submit English, Scottish teams. Catalonia, Basque regions have no such luck :lol:

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 01:07 PM
Who is the moron here, you are asking questions that have obvious answers. UK is united because Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not independant, comprendo? Man you are doing it on porpose admit it. Yeah sure, they all have significant autonomy but Britain is one country. Tim Henman, Murray play for Britain. As for Football, the Brits invented it so they can tamper with the system and submit Englis, Scotish teams. Catalonia, Basque regions have no such luck :lol:

No, I'm aware of the fact that we are now united as the UK, but what has that to do with the monarchy is my question?

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 01:13 PM
No, I'm aware of the fact that we are now united as the UK, but what has that to do with the monarchy is my question?
The monarchy system gives some added weight to countries like Britain and Spain that are ethnically diverse. Compare thse nations along with Belgium to communist ones who were also ethnically diverse such as USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia. Well none of these nations exist today. Only China does and they are using their brutal methods to ensure that ethnic monorities don't secede from China. Conclusion, Monarchies are better than other systems. Even for democratic reoublics, this may not be a good system since Quebec almost got independant in the 90s.

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 01:18 PM
The monarchy system gives some added weight to countries like Britain and Spain that are ethnically diverse. Compare thse nations along with Belgium to communist ones who were also ethnically diverse such as USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia. Well none of these nations exist today. Only China does and they are using their brutal methods to ensure that ethnic monorities don't secede from China. Conclusion, Monarchies are better than other systems. Even for democratic reoublics, this may not be a good system since Quebec almost got independant in the 90s.

Nonsense.

France and the USA are ethnically diverse, but they manage fine without a monarch.
Are you really suggesting that a monarchical system would have ensured that Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and the USSR would have remained as unified nations? And I still don't see how a monarchy helps to unify a diverse nation in a any way whatsoever :shrug: Moreover, the UK government has employed brutal tactics in the past to ensure that Scotland and Ireland couldn't break away from the UK. And if the monarchy is so good at uniting the UK, how do you explain the fact that the Republic of Ireland ended up gaining independence from Britain?

Chris 84
May 22nd, 2006, 01:19 PM
Anyway, this is way off-topic, so I'm not going to continue this argument :)

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 01:30 PM
Nonsense.

France and the USA are ethnically diverse, but they manage fine without a monarch.
Are you really suggesting that a monarchical system would have ensured that Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and the USSR would have remained as unified nations? And I still don't see how a monarchy helps to unify a diverse nation in a any way whatsoever :shrug: Moreover, the UK government has employed brutal tactics in the past to ensure that Scotland and Ireland couldn't break away from the UK. And if the monarchy is so good at uniting the UK, how do you explain the fact that the Republic of Ireland ended up gaining independence from Britain?
The whole of Britain has not collapsed has it? Only Ireland broke away and Britain managed to keep the nothern bit which is mostly stable today contrary to what many may think. Oh so Britain was brutal in the past, damn pass me the hankie I got tears in my eyes. :sad: But remember that was in the past as you yourself said and what counts is the present and future. As for the U.S., it is a state of immigrants and the English language and Christian culture has unified the country even though Spanish is being used more these days. France may have a lot of Muslim immigrants but they are concentrated in the cities and French is spoken throughout the country. But yeah Reunion, Caledonia, Mayotte (which is Muslim) are diverse from France. You have a point there but France remains the exception.
Having said that the day that one of the U.S. states becomes majority Muslim, Buddhist etc.. wil be the day where the state may decide to get its independance, don't you think so?

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 01:56 PM
a more sophisticated version of lord nelson's argument would be that monarchies pre-date nation states and therefore don't live from promoting one nation one culture policies like nation states do. citizenship is defined in terms of loyalty to the monarch, rather than in terms of nationality. i don't think you need a monarchy to achieve that, though.

dementieva's fan
May 22nd, 2006, 02:19 PM
Conclusion, Monarchies are better than other systems. Even for democratic reoublics, this may not be a good system since Quebec almost got independant in the 90s.
Canada is a monarcy not a republic. And actually here monarchy doesn't help a dime in keeping the country together. Infact there was poll a couple of years ago according to which support for seperatism would drop considerably in Quebec if Canada becomes a republic.

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 02:28 PM
WOOHOOOOO! Yesterday was the most beautiful day in Belgrade! All the Montenegrins went to vote! Woohoooo 150.000 of them! And hole Montenegro has 600.000! Never come back please! City was clean, streets were happy, Danube left the flooding areas, bicycle track down the river is working again, and i couldn't hear any Montenegrins! Thank you Belgrade! For the first time in history you looked like a real european city!

Andy T
May 22nd, 2006, 02:58 PM
I actually agree with Lord Nelson ( I need a shrink) that a royal family does act as a "unifying" force within a state. I remember very clearly a friend of mine describing how Belgians from both communities were genuinely saddened by the death of King Baudouin (and almost surprised to realise how deeply they were affected) and, of course, the deaths of Diana and the QM touched the Brits. The Swedes, too, hold their royals in deep affection.

vutt
May 22nd, 2006, 03:04 PM
I wonder why all ex-Yugoslavian republics are running away from Serbia?
At least this time they managed to do it widthout war. So things are improving down there.

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 03:16 PM
I wonder why all ex-Yugoslavian republics are running away from Serbia?
At least this time they managed to do it widthout war. So things are improving down there.

well Sebia was kind! They actually did a poll in Belgrade streets yesterday and almost 30.000 people voted 92% said we want indpendence from Montenegro. It would be to expensive for serbia to organize a referndum for 7 million people. And why should we when we all knew Montenegro is desperate to pay for it! We got our independence for free. WOOOHOOOO Thanks Montenegro. BTW 1/3 of people in Montenegor Declared as Serbs,and 34% declared as Montenegrins! Country is divided actually! 55% are for independance, and 45% for SCG! In normal country that would we a big difference, but in 600.000 people in Montenegro that's less then 50.000! So there is a problem there! In Serbia it's clear we want our independence!

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 03:18 PM
I wonder why all ex-Yugoslavian republics are running away from Serbia?
At least this time they managed to do it widthout war. So things are improving down there.
i don't think they are simply "running away from serbia" (this is true only in the sense that the serbs originally supported the unified yugoslav state which various nationalist fractions wanted to dismantle) and i do not think things are improving down there at all. a lot of things need to change before anything improves.

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 03:20 PM
and BTW vutt you talk about your country being democratic. But you forgot how you treated russians after indepence! I have friend in London, they had to run away from Estonia just for being russians. The man lost his job, girl got expelled from school for talking russian! You seem to forget that all the time...

BTW your lovely Dokic can now change her citizenship, and move to dictator-nepotism ruled Montenegro. Ask old Milosevic buddy Milo Djukanovic-now a primeminister for it! After all he's gonna rule for life. Serbia got rid of Milosevic, but Montenegro is just facing a new one! Happy life :)

WOOOOHOOOOOO

dementieva's fan
May 22nd, 2006, 03:27 PM
and BTW vutt you talk about your country being democratic. But you forgot how you treated russians after indepence! I have friend in London, they had to run away from Estonia just for being russians. The man lost his job, girl got expelled from school for talking russian! You seem to forget that all the time...

BTW your lovely Dokic can now change her citizenship, and move to dictator-nepotism ruled Montenegro. Ask old Milosevic buddy Milo Djukanovic-now a primeminister for it! After all he's gonna rule for life. Serbia got rid of Milosevic, but Montenegro is just facing a new one! Happy life :)

WOOOOHOOOOOO
Stop acting like a jerk! :rolleyes:

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 03:44 PM
Stop acting like a jerk! :rolleyes:


yeah right just soon as someone mentions other nationalistic behavior from other countries then Balkans he's a jerk!

Just as soon someone mentions:Quebec,Texas,Corsica,Bask country, Belgium, Norther Ireland, you just fire up and call us jerks, forgeting you are a bigger one!

Wiggly
May 22nd, 2006, 05:07 PM
Yesterday I watched a TV show about Louise Arbour, very interesting :)

PEACE :angel:

Carmen Mairena
May 22nd, 2006, 06:51 PM
So now it's Serbia that wanted to be independent? :tape: :retard:

Why don't give away Kosovo too? Then you will be happier than ever I guess! :scratch: :shrug:

Lord Nelson
May 22nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
So now it's Serbia that wanted to be independent? :tape: :retard:

Why don't give away Kosovo too? Then you will be happier than ever I guess! :scratch: :shrug:
KOSOVO WILL NEVER GAIN ITS INDEPENDANCE, NEVER YOU HEAR ME!!!!!! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 07:07 PM
So now it's Serbia that wanted to be independent? :tape: :retard:

Why don't give away Kosovo too? Then you will be happier than ever I guess! :scratch: :shrug:


and why don't you check geography and history or get a book! Kosovo is part of Serbia since 9th century. Kosovo was never independent before, unlike Montenegro who was independent just like Serbia from 1878-1918. But i guess you missed a lot of history, geography and other cultural lessons in school, so you could be on this board and express your ignorance!

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 08:39 PM
your comment about my supposedly bad post about montenegrins brought me a bad rep by some random brainless poster, btw. out to all the people who are too dumb to recognise a joke :tape:

Sorry it was not my intention for you to get bad rep

vutt
May 22nd, 2006, 08:39 PM
and BTW vutt you talk about your country being democratic. But you forgot how you treated russians after indepence! I have friend in London, they had to run away from Estonia just for being russians. The man lost his job, girl got expelled from school for talking russian! You seem to forget that all the time...


:haha: :haha: :haha:
You are so good at discrediting yourself - got expelled from school for talking russian :tape:
btw. polls show that majority of russian speaking people actually like to be in Estonia and they don't want to return to Russia.

back to the topic - I'm not even pretend to be expert, but I don't belive that we can blame only "little brothers" for braking up family.

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 08:43 PM
well Sebia was kind! They actually did a poll in Belgrade streets yesterday and almost 30.000 people voted 92% said we want indpendence from Montenegro. It would be to expensive for serbia to organize a referndum for 7 million people. And why should we when we all knew Montenegro is desperate to pay for it! We got our independence for free. WOOOHOOOO Thanks Montenegro. BTW 1/3 of people in Montenegor Declared as Serbs,and 34% declared as Montenegrins! Country is divided actually! 55% are for independance, and 45% for SCG! In normal country that would we a big difference, but in 600.000 people in Montenegro that's less then 50.000! So there is a problem there! In Serbia it's clear we want our independence!

Correct figures are
Montenegrins 43%
Serbs 32%
Bosnians and Muslims 11,7%
Albanians 5%
Croats 1,1%
Others and not declared 7%

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 08:48 PM
WOOHOOOOO! Yesterday was the most beautiful day in Belgrade! All the Montenegrins went to vote! Woohoooo 150.000 of them! And hole Montenegro has 600.000! Never come back please! City was clean, streets were happy, Danube left the flooding areas, bicycle track down the river is working again, and i couldn't hear any Montenegrins! Thank you Belgrade! For the first time in history you looked like a real european city!

Well glad you say it was a beautifull day in Belgrade because pretty much only students (since they live in Montenegro) actually had gone to vote, and rest as we call them terazijski crnogorci are still there. And, also thank you, because from your comment one can see why we want our country

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 08:50 PM
back to the topic - I'm not even pretend to be expert, but I don't belive that we can blame only "little brothers" for braking up family.
"family" is a suitable word considering who the leaders of montenegrin independence movement are :tape:
http://www.balkanalysis.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=666

no offence my montenegrin brothers and sisters, but this guy is gonna get you in trouble one way or the other.

and estonians actually should get more tolerant about cultural rights for russians, but that's totally off-topic, yeah.

dementieva's fan
May 22nd, 2006, 08:53 PM
Well glad you say it was a beautifull day in Belgrade because pretty much only students (since they live in Montenegro) actually had gone to vote, and rest as we call them terazijski crnogorci are still there. And, also thank you, because from your comment one can see why we want our country
I must admit that agree there :tape: If people like Duleml are any indication of how the serbs are, I'm glad you have your own country.

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 08:55 PM
Well glad you say it was a beautifull day in Belgrade because pretty much only students (since they live in Montenegro) actually had gone to vote, and rest as we call them terazijski crnogorci are still there. And, also thank you, because from your comment one can see why we want our country
from his and your comments i know why i want to forget i have anything to do with the balkans sometimes :rolleyes: "terazijski crnogorci", great :rolleyes:

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 08:56 PM
If people like Duleml are any indication of how the serbs are
i'm afraid that's pretty shallow

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 09:18 PM
from his and your comments i know why i want to forget i have anything to do with the balkans sometimes :rolleyes: "terazijski crnogorci", great :rolleyes:

Ok, I probably should have been more politicly correct and say Montenegrins that live and work in Belgrade, and don't want to see Montenegro as indipendent country. Is that better?

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 09:23 PM
Ok, I probably should have been more politicly correct and say Montenegrins that live and work in Belgrade, and don't want to see Montenegro as indipendent country. Is that better?
i don't know. me and my family, we have always been totally nomadic. we don't belong anywhere properly. for that reason i have little sympathy for attempts to define one's nationality in this way.

montenegrins who want a union with serbia are no less montenegrin than anyone else, regardless of where they live. calling them "terazijski crnogorci" is cheap. much more than any of my jokes ever could be.

咖容Less
May 22nd, 2006, 09:44 PM
not is more curious, he is offending hos own people calling them "Montenegrins from Terazije" (Terazije-Belgrade square) so Dementieva fan should conclude that Montenegrins hate between them selves-but lot of people are so dumb on this board, taht it would take probably another 20 posts for them to explain! And i don't have time for that! Go get some knowledge and them write true things. You haven't heard Serbs calling themselves other then serbs,right? But "Montemegrins from Terazij" is really an interesting way to call 45% of people in a new country! Well done for your democratic views, keep going on! In new nepotism( for dumb ones- where political leaders come from same family) and dictatorshio-where cigarette mafia rules, and people sell cigarretes in a box on the street!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess only thing i wish you is good luck! Your new country reminds me a lot of Serbia 1995-2000- that means we are 11 years ahead of you! Good luck reaching Iceland standards by autumn ( as one of your ministers said)

Joana
May 22nd, 2006, 10:26 PM
Sigh.

requiem
May 22nd, 2006, 10:45 PM
In the end the only thing that matters is that Montenegro gain it's independence in peacefull way what for Balkans equals miracle. That is what I really am proud of.

azdaja
May 22nd, 2006, 10:54 PM
*sighs*

Ems__
May 22nd, 2006, 11:16 PM
What annoys me about this situation is that Montenegrins really believe that they will be better of. Personally I couldnt care less if Montenegro stays or goes, if you want to go, honestly, go...no one cares and no one will stop you. It amuses me that they honestly believe things will change in a split second, like the International community's attitudes will change towards them just because they are Montenegrin, like the EU will beg for their membership. Like they will prosper and things will automatically change for the better...
I suppose that's the picture Djukanovic painted :rolleyes: But what can you expect, he's wanted dead by the Italian mafia and he's a member of the Carlyle group (A group of arguably the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world, who own such corporations as United Defence, and are one of the main instigators of modern day conflicts)

Actually I found this excerpt from the book The Iron Triangle, really interesting:

Milo Djukanovicpresident of Montenegro.
In searching for support to pursue independence for his country, Djukanovic lobbied the American government to no avail. But he found an ally in Frank Carlucci, who met with Djukanovic and then lobbied his former understudy, Colin Powell, to consider Djkanovics requests.

http://onmilwaukee.com/boards/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=books&Number=90236&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

The article first explains the Carlyles and then goes on to introduce 'the cast', including Milo with the likes of such names as Wolfowitz, Bush Sr & Jr, Rumsfield, Powell, Eisner (owner of disney), the Saudi Arabian prince and Shafiq Bin Laden (Half brother of Osama Bin Laden)

咖容Less
May 23rd, 2006, 06:57 PM
In the end the only thing that matters is that Montenegro gain it's independence in peacefull way what for Balkans equals miracle. That is what I really am proud of.


just please stay proud of it, and stay studiying in Montenegro, don't come like 95% of your students to Belgrade to get a decent education!

azdaja
May 23rd, 2006, 07:08 PM
i understand that a lot of crap must have been said during the campaign for independence and that such things must have caused a lot of resentment in serbia, but i don't think it would be good for this argument to go on. i'm pretty sure a lot of montenegrins still feel attached to serbia in the same way as some of the greatest montenegrins in history were. such people could end up being rejected by both the serbs and the montenegrins.

njegos must be rolling in his grave.

Lord Nelson
May 23rd, 2006, 07:18 PM
Now the int community oops I meant the EU should not follow this with Kosovo becoming independant. If that happens then the EU better not object to Bosnian Serbs deciding to join Serbia. Otherwise they will certainly be anti Serb and by then Serbs would care less about joining the EU which is maybe what the EU wants anyway.

azdaja
May 23rd, 2006, 07:34 PM
i'm pretty sure the eu wants serbia to join in, the only question is on what terms. i think americans are the ones who might want to see kosovo independent. that would open another can of worms, but that's another matter.

ezekiel
May 29th, 2006, 12:22 PM
I can't believe that Dulemi argues about students and wanting to get rid of them. Get over yourself and stop repeating non sense :rolleyes: . Please show respect before acting petulant. For one , Far more people from belgrade go to montenegro coast than vice versa. Please explain to me how it's ok to lose a coastline and become landlocked

Now for requiem who is a self described separatist, can you explain to me why you feel montenegro gets no respect from serbia. I will tell you first that there are lots of of crazy politicians in belgrade who should quit politics for good, draskovic (too old and not making sense and could shave himself) , tomislav nikolic (truelly insane person that needs to be put down), kostunica (too philosophical and no leadership skills) just to name a few

You know it's funny because I lived in canada for 10 years and I lived in Montreal in 95 when there was referendum about independence of Quebec and there was a similar talk about lack of respect but in my experience it was only meant to inflame passions. That referendum was very tight. Anyway I see that you are supporting serbian tennis players despite your talk here, can you suggest some montenegro (crna gora) players to support to return that favour? :wavey:


Just for the record I was born in Subotica, near border of hungary of serbo hungarian parents , I will say that this is another low blow for balkan ( the wrong word put from outside, south east europe is more accurate) in general but for serbia in particular and to lesser degree montenegro as well. Yes MN may enter EU quicker but not as a full member and will be dependent on outside and the economy will be more restricted due to much smaller area of operation. Politically people will be divided and I see more extremists getting encouraged due to division and confusion of situation. If Serbia were to become landlocked , that will put a serious blow to a future economic recovery and development

Sports wise could be bad for everyone though, MN didn't have much before and it can only get worse. Serbia will also suffer from lack of competition. In tennis and basketball, 2 sports i watch this is where this is most obvious. Serbia and Montenegro have for example 8 players in the NBA , far more than any other country, though only 1 is born in MN , Aleksandar Pavlovic, and he has said he is against separation . In tennis it's even more excarbated.

So in summary what I see is that this is another situation that gives "Balkan" (oh how I hate that word :fiery: ) the bad name where "Balkanization" occurs with authoritarian and irresponsible politicians leading the way in dividing common people and inflaming passions all the while promising fortune to come in future . I've made my case where this particular deed will lead to deterioration economically, politically and sports wise . But no , I do not see where there is any kind of real violence or what people insinuated elsewhere based on recent history . I just see more inflamed passions and bad blood .

azdaja
May 29th, 2006, 01:51 PM
there's nothing wrong with being landlocked :o

i don't think the local politicians alone are the problem. the word balkanisation actually means "to break up into small, mutually hostile political units" and traditionally this happens with a lot of foreign influence. this is being neglected by most of the people. unlike canada or belgium or even czechoslovakia, the break-up of the former yugoslavia happened with a lot of meddling by powerful states which exacerbated existing conflicts and in some cases even set stage for new ones. those who look down on the people from the balkans should look in the mirror first.

Joana
May 29th, 2006, 06:04 PM
there's nothing wrong with being landlocked :o



True.
And people don't seem to understand that Serbia and Montenegro have been separated for years in everything but the name. This was no shock. Nothing has changed.

Grachka
May 29th, 2006, 06:24 PM
and estonians actually should get more tolerant about cultural rights for russians, but that's totally off-topic, yeah.
I'm gonna drag it back off-topic for a minute and say that in fact Estonians are a lot more tolerant about Russian minorities than before.

I would imagine that the vast majority of countries that emerge from that type of situation will have a period where there is resentment and discrimination, but Estonia and Latvia have actually reformed their attitudes faster than anyone could have hoped for...they are a great deal more ethnically integrated than most would be in that situation.

Allez Estonia and Latvia, is all I can say. ;)

azdaja
May 29th, 2006, 06:39 PM
back on topic i will just reiterate what i had posted before - the balkans needs economic and even political integration badly and montenegrin independence cannot be seen as a step in that direction. further, erm, balkanisation of the region is not in anyone's interest anymore. in this sense everyone should hope that the tide will soon turn.

Lord Nelson
May 29th, 2006, 06:53 PM
True.
And people don't seem to understand that Serbia and Montenegro have been separated for years in everything but the name. This was no shock. Nothing has changed.
If the two have been separated for years as you say, why is it that in your biography it still says that you come from Yugoslavia instead of Serbia? Trurth is people like you still feel an attachement to Montenegrins and Bosnian Serbs and that you don't want to give up Kosovo.

Chris 84
May 29th, 2006, 08:47 PM
If the two have been separated for years as you say, why is it that in your biography it still says that you come from Yugoslavia instead of Serbia? Trurth is people like you still feel an attachement to Montenegrins and Bosnian Serbs and that you don't want to give up Kosovo.

:haha:

Of course, Lord Nelson knows best as usual. He's always right. :p

azdaja
May 29th, 2006, 09:30 PM
:haha:

Of course, Lord Nelson knows best as usual. He's always right. :p
in a very vague way he might be even right actually, at least in this case. bosnian serbs fought a war in bosnia because they opposed bosnian independence. montenegro remains divided with a lot of montenegrins still being loyal to serbia, it appears. these divisions are largely artificial.

Joana
May 29th, 2006, 09:42 PM
If the two have been separated for years as you say, why is it that in your biography it still says that you come from Yugoslavia instead of Serbia?


It's very prosaic actually - I like the name Yugoslavia. And I can't be bothered to change my profile.


Trurth is people like you still feel an attachement to Montenegrins and Bosnian Serbs and that you don't want to give up Kosovo.

You couldn't be more wrong.

ezekiel
May 30th, 2006, 03:45 AM
Joana just admit that you are left leaning and live in the past. I take it you are socialist who supported Milosevic during his unfortunate reign of power because Yugoslavia is a code name for socialists that symbolizes their backward views. I mean there is nothing that great sounding about yugoslovia which has very negative connotations abroad due to civil war .

And no I do not agree that Serbia and Montegro have been separate for years. It's just that political system is so inflexible and outdated, pretty much the same as when Milosevic left and it doesn't function so it's hard for people to relate to it let alone those with modern views who want to do something about it . Modern political system wouldn't produce people like Draskovic or Nikolic or even Djukanovic and let's not even go back to Milosevic or Seselj. Political system needs serious reforms so that politicians feel responsible to the people they represent and elect them. Gone are the days when being a politician meant good times only and abuse of power.


I sympathize with people who want reforms and detest those who advocate status quo or return of monarchy or return of yugoslavia and so on because those will lead to just hostility , totalitarianism and economic failure . There is no doubt in my mind that some of those who voted for independence actually want changes and better future but are maybe misled or confused about it and trying to rationalize it differently. Despite some people in belgrade trying to rationalize this development as something positive , truth is there is nothing positive about it for Serbia and as far as MN it's bad enough that they are as divided as ever. This will just give various radicals some short power gain . Anyway It's high time for young people with modern views to take the power from the old guard

Joana
May 30th, 2006, 10:40 AM
Oh God, another one who "knows" me. Well, since I'm obviously so transparent, there's no use for me posting in this thread any longer.

azdaja
May 30th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Gone are the days when being a politician meant good times only and abuse of power.
i'm afraid that will never be true and not only in the balkans.

samsung101
May 30th, 2006, 06:37 PM
The 'velvet divorce' is on, and should continue.

They voted, it was seen as fair by the world (unlike
say, Venezuela's last couple of elections or some
of the trickery seen in the Ukraine a few years
ago). The vote is done.

The EU and UN have been trying to force them to
stay connected, even though they are largely
separate in all but name right now.

The EU and UN and USA should do all they can to
make sure the 'divorce' goes smoothly, peacefully,
and all groups of people are represented somehow.

It's out of the bottle, it can't go back in now. All you
can try to do is avoid another war.


Most Americans don't get this issue, couldn't find any
of these places on a map if it was 'Deal or No Deal'.
Most Americans still don't get what went on in
Kosovo or Bosnia ,and think we fixed all the problems
there! Obviously, no, we didn't, nor could we have.
The outside world can't make people who hate
one another going back centuries, all of a sudden love
one another, the world can make sure things get done
smoothly as possible, with little to no bloodshed.

While many of the tales of genocide and concentration
camps and murder going on as a precursor to the
US involvement in Kosovo/Bosnia was overdone, and
largely found to be exaggerated...we don't want to get
anywhere near those types of stories once again. So,
the world should assist all sides to get the separation
done with peacefully.

The World Court and UN are still trying to track down
war criminals in these places as well. So much for
quick and speedy justice !

The Velvet Divorce should be helped along by the world,
in whatever way possible. But ,in the end, the world
can't force the citizens of these places to be peaceful,
they have to want that too.

azdaja
May 30th, 2006, 07:20 PM
The outside world can't make people who hate
one another going back centuries, all of a sudden love
one another, the world can make sure things get done
smoothly as possible, with little to no bloodshed.
shut up http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_pick02.gif the outside "world" (who is this "world" anyway?) has more than a little share of blame in the conflict in the balkans. and you come once again to comment on a topic about another part of the world you know nothing about.

this "wisdom" about some hatred "going back centuries" should make you wonder how much people know about their own history as well :rolleyes:

samsung101
May 31st, 2006, 04:49 PM
If the world can help the situation, it should.

I think they are all trying to avoid any replay of
the Bosnia/Kosovo/Croatia wars and battles. The
EU should take the lead here. It's their backyard.
Not enough for a Chirac to bash the vote, it's
done. Deal with it.

It's a much better situation than The Congo or
Dharfur, so I think the world generally thinks it
will be worked out peacefully.



All the while, Katie and Tom and Chris Matthews
and CBS and CNN tell us about missing teenagers
in Aruba (still), Congressman who put thousands
of dollars in their freezer and complain when their
offices are raided with warrants by the FBI, how
Hillary is brilliant, McCain isn't so nice anymore,
and illegal aliens are great, as long as they don't
move to your neighborhood. Serbia? What's a
Serbia? Something like an East Timor? Is that
edible?

azdaja
May 31st, 2006, 04:56 PM
http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_pick01.gif

samsung101
May 31st, 2006, 06:23 PM
I also mention East Timor as a struggling free nation
because right now, what is it, 100,000 refugees fleeing
the violence in the capital today. Children are being
killed. Gangs have taken over much of many parts of
the big cities and countryside. Yet, Clinton and the UN
hailed what a success they created there!

A new democracy, a new free nation is going through
severe growing pains, and the world sort of mutters,
oh well, that happens.


Iraq, oh no, it's a failure! It must be fixed right now!
Look at the bloodshed, it is a failure!

Elsewhere in the world, new democracies are given
decades to grow and emerge.
Russia, yeah, they're changing, it's going along.
Chenya is an isolated thing. Sure it is.
South Africa, ditto. Murder, gangs, warfare, slums
go on. As does the progress, as does the change.
This change in Serbia Montenegro has been brewing
for years and years. Can it really be stopped at this
point? I don't think so.

I think we have to assume some bad things will happen
down the line with the Serbia Montengro changes and
separation. Some will be violent, we hope that can
be isolated. But, I also think the world and the EU will
step in to help this be kept to a minimum. In a decade
when there is still some strife, problems, big setbacks,
the world and EU and UN and USA won't give up on
these two new separate nations. They'll help out. We
saw what the alternative was already in the 90's.

No, no one wants that. The vote took place, and now,
it's time to argue out the separation, even if it is an
ugly and messy and uneven separation. Everyone will
not be happy. We have to accept that.

azdaja
May 31st, 2006, 06:25 PM
i'm sure a lot of places you mention would be happy if the us and others would stop "helping". but whatever.

dementieva's fan
May 31st, 2006, 10:09 PM
shut up http://www.play.fm/images/smiles/icon_pick02.gif the outside "world" (who is this "world" anyway?) has more than a little share of blame in the conflict in the balkans. and you come once again to comment on a topic about another part of the world you know nothing about.

this "wisdom" about some hatred "going back centuries" should make you wonder how much people know about their own history as well :rolleyes:
Sorry I don't know much about this but how did the outside world create problems? From what I know Europe got a black eye for sitting there and not doing anything before America intervened.

azdaja
May 31st, 2006, 10:20 PM
Sorry I don't know much about this but how did the outside world create problems? From what I know Europe got a black eye for sitting there and not doing anything before America intervened.
europe did not just "sit there", they were involved in the problem from the beginning. one of the most famous moments was when germany decided to recognise independence of slovenia and croatia even though the rest of the eu countries were opposed to it (germany was criticised a lot for this decision afterwards, but that's largely forgotten now). according to observers at the time that would lead to a civil war in bosnia (they were right). but i can't and won't post a lot about that here, books have been written about this and the less politically important the story gets the more accurate information will be available everywhere.

it is a very complex story, but if you are really interested, you need to find out more about the conflict. the idea that the eu and the usa were neutral and trying to help is a but naive anyway. they never were and never will be.

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 04:23 AM
wohhooo Congrats Montenegro!! After the loss in the football match the other day, now you will no longer have to associate yourself with Serbia. Finally, completely free from Serbia :D. Good luck and just watch your economy and tourism industry start becoming stronger now that you are free. Good thing you did not let yourself bullied by the Serbs. :yeah: Now lets hope the same happens with Kosovo and later Hungarian majority parts of Vojvodina follows the suit and separate from Serbia.

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 04:49 AM
there's nothing wrong with being landlocked :o


There is a lot wrong with being landlocked esp for Serbia. Water is the cheapest way of transportation of goods and becoming landlocked would create problem for Serbia as they will no longer have access through water to Greece and Italy which are one of their main trading partners, if Montenegro refuses to let Serbia use their ports, they will have to rely on land routes for trade which in case of Greece will be most likely through Macedonia and in case of Italy through many countries and Serbia would have to pay taxes to these countries for using their land routes compounded by the fact that they won't be able to export in bulk as the can by using water routes. Also Serbia would lose the shortest possible route to Italy. Montenegro will do Serbia a huge favour if it allowes them to use their coastline and I'm sure it would but it would be in exchange of Montenegrin students allowed to study in Belgrade. And those who want to get rid of Montenegrin students... it will hurt you more than Montenegro as you will lose trade profits as Montenegro will refuse you guys access to water.

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 05:02 AM
And at all those pointing fingers at Djukanovic look at yourself first. How can you dare to say that after you guys are voting for Serbian Radical Party in high numbers :tape: Showing such support for the Serbian Radical party and then expecting Montenegro and others to be all warm and fuzzy with you :rolleyes:

Things are happening the opposite of what you Serbs wanted, instead of becoming bigger you are shrinking (and I personally can't wait Kosovo's independence.:bounce: ) This should be a lesson for everyone-- The Serbs dreamt of a greater Serbia and now have lost almost everything they had and are losing more. :wavey:

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 10:12 AM
There is a lot wrong with being landlocked esp for Serbiablablabla
austria is landlocked too and we don't have a problem with that :p

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 10:13 AM
And at all those pointing fingers at Djukanovic look at yourself first. How can you dare to say that after you guys are voting for Serbian Radical Party in high numbers :tape: Showing such support for the Serbian Radical party and then expecting Montenegro and others to be all warm and fuzzy with you :rolleyes:

Things are happening the opposite of what you Serbs wanted, instead of becoming bigger you are shrinking (and I personally can't wait Kosovo's independence.:bounce: ) This should be a lesson for everyone-- The Serbs dreamt of a greater Serbia and now have lost almost everything they had and are losing more. :wavey:
so, can we simply conclude that you are an anti-serb idiot?

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 01:55 PM
austria is landlocked too and we don't have a problem with that :p
But we're talking about Serbia here, aren't we? :p Austria has been landlocked for a large part of its modern history so their economy has developed in the same way, Serbia on the other hand always had a coastline at its disposal, this is a shock for Serbia. Also Austria, due to its strong financial and diplomatic situation can afford to be landlocked. Serbia on the other hand neither has the financial strength nor the diplomatic, the countries it will have to heavily co-operate and rely upon if it loses its coastline are not exactly its best friends, plus there is also a general mistrust against Serbia in these countries after the Serbian Radical Party did so well in the elections, goodluck trying to compromise with these countries and yet be as efficient as with Montenegro's coastline. Up until this day the some Serbs are trying to stir up shit in the ex-yu countries, so if you lose cooperation with Montenegro Serbia is going to have a hard time with its economy.

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 02:06 PM
so, can we simply conclude that you are an anti-serb idiot?
So wanting betterment of ex-Yugoslav states, Montenegro and Kosovo is anti-Serb these days? :tape: Serbs have shown time and time again that they want to live in the past and not move on. Well you can stay in the past but don't drag others with you, Ok? It was about time for Montenegro to move on and I'm very happy for them :) And Kosovo and Hungarian and Romanian majority areas of Vojvodina will be better off completely seceding from Serbia.

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 02:15 PM
But we're talking about Serbia here, aren't we? :p Austria has been landlocked for a large part of its modern history so their economy has developed in the same way, Serbia on the other hand always had a coastline at its disposal, this is a shock for Serbia. Also Austria, due to its strong financial and diplomatic situation can afford to be landlocked. Serbia on the other hand neither has the financial strength nor the diplomatic, the countries it will have to heavily co-operate and rely upon if it loses its coastline are not exactly its best friends, plus there is also a general mistrust against Serbia in these countries after the Serbian Radical Party did so well in the elections, goodluck trying to compromise with these countries and yet be as efficient as with Montenegro's coastline. Up until this day the some Serbs are trying to stir up shit in the ex-yu countries, so if you lose cooperation with Montenegro Serbia is going to have a hard time with its economy.
your analysis is completely wrong.

first, if the balkans were not divided into dozens of mutually hostile banana republics the best trade routes from serbia would go through macedonia towards the port of thessaloniki (as was the case before the ww2). the route via montengro has always been completely irrational.

second, macedonians are not that hostile towards serbia and would profit from such a route enourmously. they incidently also have every reason to be hostile to kosovan independence because they have a huge albanian minority and you know, there is also something called "greater albania" and a lot of albanian nationalists work towards that goal. let's not forget they kicked all minorites out of kosovo when they were given chance.

third, serbia is on the best trade route between central europe and turkey. it is also situated on danube.

fourth, the serbs are not stirring shit anywhere now that they have been ethnically cleansed from croatia, kosovo and huge parts of bosnia.

fifth, further fragmentation of the balkans is bad for everyone in that troubled part of the world. do people over there ever think about what all this means for their economies or do they think they will get rich by simply entering the eu?

so basically what you said is just hateful wishful thinking.

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 02:20 PM
So wanting betterment of ex-Yugoslav states, Montenegro and Kosovo is anti-Serb these days? :tape: Serbs have shown time and time again that they want to live in the past and not move on. Well you can stay in the past but don't drag others with you, Ok? It was about time for Montenegro to move on and I'm very happy for them :) And Kosovo and Hungarian and Romanian majority areas of Vojvodina will be better off completely seceding from Serbia.
you did not say you want a betterment of ex-yugoslav states, you said you want serbia to diminish. that sounds fairly anti-serb to me. look at the words you chose - montenegro was not occupied by serbia and thus cannot be "finally free" from it. furthermore these were your first posts on this board and you dug out this thread from i don't know where just to post that nonsense?

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 09:32 PM
your analysis is completely wrong.

first, if the balkans were not divided into dozens of mutually hostile banana republics the best trade routes from serbia would go through macedonia towards the port of thessaloniki (as was the case before the ww2). the route via montengro has always been completely irrational.

second, macedonians are not that hostile towards serbia and would profit from such a route enourmously. they incidently also have every reason to be hostile to kosovan independence because they have a huge albanian minority and you know, there is also something called "greater albania" and a lot of albanian nationalists work towards that goal. let's not forget they kicked all minorites out of kosovo when they were given chance.

third, serbia is on the best trade route between central europe and turkey. it is also situated on danube.

fourth, the serbs are not stirring shit anywhere now that they have been ethnically cleansed from croatia, kosovo and huge parts of bosnia.

fifth, further fragmentation of the balkans is bad for everyone in that troubled part of the world. do people over there ever think about what all this means for their economies or do they think they will get rich by simply entering the eu?

so basically what you said is just hateful wishful thinking.


You could try as much as you want to think that the independence of Montenegro is bad for Montenegro and good for Serbia and live in denial, but the fact remains that this is more harm for Serbia than Montenegro. Transportation by sea is better as it allowes you to transport stuff in bulk simple as that, going through land it takes you minimum 10 trips to transport the same amount of goods as with one trip through sea

Serbia raised quite a few eyebrows in Macedonia after the radical party started doing so well in the elections. Serbian Radical party also tried to register as a political party in Macedonia mainly with the aim exploiting nationalism among Macedonian serbs much to the anger of macedonians, Serbia is not sending the right signals. And it is besides the point if Macedonians would cooperate or not, the point is the effect it will have on Serbian businesses. They will find it a lot easier and profitable if they cooperate with Montenegro. And just watch the Serbs go running and asking to use the montenegrin coastline.

To the part where you said Albanians kicked out all the Serbs... We all know who started ethnic cleansing first ;) (Serbs, President Miloshevic..... rings a bell) and to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And that reaction from scared unarmed Albanians who had been terrorized by the serbs before, was no surprise :shrug: (I'm not saying justifiable, but not surprising and understandable for a neutral). BTW-- did you forget to mention what the Serbs did in Serbian Krajina :scratch:


fifth, further fragmentation of the balkans is bad for everyone in that troubled part of the world. do people over there ever think about what all this means for their economies or do they think they will get rich by simply entering the eu?


Yes it is good for their economy, just compare how Slovenia which seceded is doing to how Kosovo and Montenegro who stayed as a part of Serbia, are doing..... and see the difference. :)

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 09:53 PM
You could try as much as you want to think that the independence of Montenegro is bad for Montenegro and good for Serbia and live in denial, but the fact remains that this is more harm for Serbia than Montenegro. Transportation by sea is better as it allowes you to transport stuff in bulk simple as that, going through land it takes you minimum 10 trips to transport the same amount of goods as with one trip through sea
transporation by the sea is alright, but getting to the sea is more diificult over mountains than via river valleys. which is the reason the main export routes from serbia used to go towards greece (via morava and vardar river valleys) for the past few thousand years. the route to montenegro was built only in the mid-20th century. even if serbia and montenegro remained one state i think the other route would be better.


blablabla
:yawn:


To the part where you said Albanians kicked out all the Serbs... We all know who started ethnic cleansing first ;)
yes, the albanians. even if we leave out the ww2, the word "ethnic cleansing" was first used in english by the new york times in 1981 to describe actions of albanian nationalists in kosovo.

I'm not saying justifiable, but not surprising and understandable for a neutral
they expelled everyone from kosovo, not just serbs, and from the point of view of a neutral person (which you are not) their actions are clearly deplorable and they are understood as such by pretty much everyone i know.

BTW-- did you forget to mention what the Serbs did in Serbian Krajina :scratch:
they were expelled from there in the greatest single act of ethnic cleansing during the balkan wars. why you ask?


Yes it is good for their economy, just compare how Slovenia which seceded is doing to how Kosovo and Montenegro who stayed as a part of Serbia, are doing..... and see the difference. :)
:lol:

slovenia was by far the richest part of the former yugoslavia anyway and kosovo was by far the poorest. the rest of serbia, which is also a part of, erm, serbia is doing much better economically than both kosovo and montenegro :lol:

look, i don't know why you are so fucked in the head (are you from the balkans yourself? :scratch: ), but this is getting ridiculous.

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 09:55 PM
you did not say you want a betterment of ex-yugoslav states, you said you want serbia to diminish. that sounds fairly anti-serb to me. look at the words you chose - montenegro was not occupied by serbia and thus cannot be "finally free" from it. furthermore these were your first posts on this board and you dug out this thread from i don't know where just to post that nonsense?
Please point out where I said that I want "Serbia to diminish". And the betterment is implied when I support their break-away from Serbia, look how well Slovenia is doing and Croatia and Macedonia are also doing well. Bosnia is starting to recover from the aftershocks. And Bosnia, Croatia would be doing a lot better had Serbia just left them alone, but no. Macedonia would also be doing alot better had it not been for the Kosovo war and the influx of refugees into Macedonia and also the trade restrictions that were put on it due to Serbia.

I'm not anti-Serb or anything it is just that they are afraid of change want to live in the past sticking with their pre-WWII mentality and in the process are pulling the others down with them as well, which is unacceptable!!!

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Please point out where I said that I want "Serbia to diminish".

there:

instead of becoming bigger you are shrinking (and I personally can't wait Kosovo's independence.:bounce: )


And the betterment is implied when I support their break-away from Serbia, look how well Slovenia is doing and Croatia and Macedonia are also doing well. Bosnia is starting to recover from the aftershocks. And Bosnia, Croatia would be doing a lot better had Serbia just left them alone, but no. Macedonia would also be doing alot better had it not been for the Kosovo war and the influx of refugees into Macedonia and also the trade restrictions that were put on it due to Serbia.

I'm not anti-Serb or anything it is just that they are afraid of change want to live in the past sticking with their pre-WWII mentality and in the process are pulling the others down with them as well, which is unacceptable!!!
as i said, you are fucked in the head :lol:

please, tell me you are not from the balkans yourself :tape:

Stark
Jun 24th, 2006, 10:39 PM
transporation by the sea is alright, but getting to the sea is more diificult over mountains than via river valleys. which is the reason the main export routes from serbia used to go towards greece (via morava and vardar river valleys) for the past few thousand years. the route to montenegro was built only in the mid-20th century. even if serbia and montenegro remained one state i think the other route would be better.

Another pathetic attempt to live in denial, by you. If the other route was so better than why depending upon the Montenegrin route till now :tape: Let's see, your government will definately ask Montenegro for cooperation.


yes, the albanians. even if we leave out the ww2, the word "ethnic cleansing" was first used in english by the new york times in 1981 to describe actions of albanian nationalists in kosovo.

riot=ethnic cleansing :scratch:
And all the Ethnic cleansing that that your hero Miloshevic was claiming was not ethnic cleansing. Albanians had the higher birth rate and also most Serbs left voluntarily as there were not enough jobs for them, hence fall in the proportion of Serbs in Albania.


they were expelled from there in the greatest single act of ethnic cleansing during the balkan wars. why you ask?

:haha: Do you know how they came there in the first place? They killed/deported every fucking Croat/Muslim they could find. And when the Croats came back they ran away like I said... reaction and understandable. I realize that there is no point going about it with a Serb nationalist like you, hey you are getting late to worship your heros Miloshevic and Babic so hurry.


:lol:

slovenia was by far the richest part of the former yugoslavia anyway and kosovo was by far the poorest. the rest of serbia, which is also a part of, erm, serbia is doing much better economically than both kosovo and montenegro :lol:
Moron, the standard f living in Slovenia has improved manifold in Slovenia since independence. The average income before independence and after has increased almost 4 times!! Had Serbia left all the republics and Kosovo alone when the wanted independence all of them would have been a lot more prosperous today. All them including Serbia would have been in the EU today.


look, i don't know why you are so fucked in the head (are you from the balkans yourself? :scratch: ), but this is getting ridiculous.
It is none of your concern where I'm from, if someday you become worthfull enough you will know. and BTW fuck you. and don't bother replying to this as I'm not replying to this thread any further.

azdaja
Jun 24th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Another pathetic attempt to live in denial, by you. If the other route was so better than why depending upon the Montenegrin route till now
because of stupid nationalism :p


riot=ethnic cleansing :scratch:
And all the Ethnic cleansing that that your hero Miloshevic was claiming was not ethnic cleansing. Albanians had the higher birth rate and also most Serbs left voluntarily as there were not enough jobs for them, hence fall in the proportion of Serbs in Albania.
wtf?


:haha: Do you know how they came there in the first place? They killed/deported every fucking Croat/Muslim they could find. And when the Croats came back they ran away like I said... reaction and understandable. I realize that there is no point going about it with a Serb nationalist like you, hey you are getting late to worship your heros Miloshevic and Babic so hurry.
i am not a nationalist, serb or otherwise. i am a libertarian socialist and all nationalists can suck my red hot dick (you can apply too, but you will be rejected :p ). the serbs lived for centuries as a border guard there, which is where the name krajina comes from. and according to the wiesenthal institute, the first victims of ethnic cleansing in croatia were serbs, so...


Moron, the standard f living in Slovenia has improved manifold in Slovenia since independence. The average income before independence and after has increased almost 4 times!! Had Serbia left all the republics and Kosovo alone when the wanted independence all of them would have been a lot more prosperous today. All them including Serbia would have been in the EU today.
moron, the standard of living improved everywhere in the world over past 20 years, 3-4 times, even.


It is none of your concern where I'm from, if someday you become worthfull enough you will know. I used to be a member on this board a little while ago before I got banned :o . and BTW fuck you. and don't bother replying to this as I'm not replying to this thread any further.
:lol: being dumb kinda sucks, no? :p

Ems__
Jun 25th, 2006, 12:33 AM
To the part where you said Albanians kicked out all the Serbs... We all know who started ethnic cleansing first ;) (Serbs, President Miloshevic..... rings a bell) and to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And that reaction from scared unarmed Albanians who had been terrorized by the serbs before, was no surprise :shrug: (I'm not saying justifiable, but not surprising and understandable for a neutral). BTW-- did you forget to mention what the Serbs did in Serbian Krajina :scratch:


That comment right there illustrates just how much you know.

G~Playa
Jun 25th, 2006, 04:07 AM
Would it not be economic suicide for Montenegro to split?
i think so..

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 04:36 AM
Couldn't resist replying to your bs :devil:
because of stupid nationalism :p
Yeah yeah... we'll see, I'll bump this thread up, when the two governments get together to discuss division of debt and all, where they will also possibly discuss montenegro's coastline.


wtf?


i am not a nationalist, serb or otherwise. i am a libertarian socialist and all nationalists can suck my red hot dick (you can apply too, but you will be rejected :p ). the serbs lived for centuries as a border guard there, which is where the name krajina comes from. and according to the wiesenthal institute, the first victims of ethnic cleansing in croatia were serbs, so...
Pick up your history books it was the serbs who cleansed Croats and Muslims first from the krajina region during the days of Republic of Serbian Krajina.

moron, the standard of living improved everywhere in the world over past 20 years, 3-4 times, even.

And moron the standard of living has been the same in Serbia with very little betterment as compared to Slovenia and the standard of living in Kosovo and Montenegro has fallen and is worse than the standard of living in 1960's during Tito's era.


:lol: being dumb kinda sucks, no? :p
Why??:confused: I thought you would know better

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 04:41 AM
i think so..
No!! It would be economically beneficial for Montenegro, as Requim pointed out how it would boast the tourism industry which constitutes a large % of the Montenegrin GDP.

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 04:48 AM
This is an honest question to all the pro-Union Serbs here... azdaza, EMS_, Lord Nelson and any others I missed. If you guys think that Serbia is such a great place to begin with why don't you live there. I noticed all you seem to live outside Serbia. And if you fleed Serbia, what gives you the right to tell Kosovo and Montenegro that they should not secede.... isn't it hypocritical of you to stay out of Serbia and yet tell the others that they should not leave. I know i won't get a straight answer from any of you but please try your best. :)

Ems__
Jun 25th, 2006, 05:52 AM
This is an honest question to all the pro-Union Serbs here... azdaza, EMS_, Lord Nelson and any others I missed. If you guys think that Serbia is such a great place to begin with why don't you live there. I noticed all you seem to live outside Serbia. And if you fleed Serbia, what gives you the right to tell Kosovo and Montenegro that they should not secede.... isn't it hypocritical of you to stay out of Serbia and yet tell the others that they should not leave. I know i won't get a straight answer from any of you but please try your best. :)

Dear smartass,

Why do you insist on making assumptions? When did azdaja or I ever say it was a better place to live? You're right (in my case), we left for a better life...and no that doesn't give me a right to decide whether Montenegro should secede, nor does it give you that right either (particularly for someone living in San Marino :) ). And contrary to what others may believe it does not give "the west" (loose term here) the power to meddle in other's business (if were looking at International law and soverignty of state) This is a discussion board meaning that everyone has an opinion (including me and azdaja) and is entitled to express that opinion, despite the fact that you may disagree (hard to believe huh?)

"isn't it hypocritical of you to stay out of Serbia and yet tell the others that they should not leave"

If you had bothered to actually read back, I said that the independence of Montenegro is a good thing. So that puts your stupid assumption out of whack.
I find it rather amusing that you try to categorise us all in your narrow box, and make assumptions in a dismal attempt at 'cornering' us.

You're line of arguing is pitiful and downright skewed; it is evident that you have some personal interests in inciting this debate.
I don't think I'll bother replying in future, until maybe, just maybe you write me a post worth replying.

xoxo Ems

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 11:35 AM
Yeah yeah... we'll see, I'll bump this thread up, when the two governments get together to discuss division of debt and all, where they will also possibly discuss montenegro's coastline.
bump it up for all i care. i never said serbian government does the right thing. the trade route i described was used for a few thousand years and if economy would matter something to the people in the balkans it would be used now and in the future.


Pick up your history books it was the serbs who cleansed Croats and Muslims first from the krajina region during the days of Republic of Serbian Krajina.
there was ethnic cleansing from there, yes. but according to simon wiesenthal institute the first refugees in croatia were the serbs who did not live in krajina. basically, serbs fled from places where they were a minority and croats fled from places where they were a minority.


And moron the standard of living has been the same in Serbia with very little betterment as compared to Slovenia and the standard of living in Kosovo and Montenegro has fallen and is worse than the standard of living in 1960's during Tito's era.
well, moron, that has little to do with serbia per se. serbia was under sanctions during the 1990's. even so, standard of living has fallen in other places as well.

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 11:45 AM
This is an honest question to all the pro-Union Serbs here... azdaza, EMS_, Lord Nelson and any others I missed. If you guys think that Serbia is such a great place to begin with why don't you live there. I noticed all you seem to live outside Serbia. And if you fleed Serbia, what gives you the right to tell Kosovo and Montenegro that they should not secede.... isn't it hypocritical of you to stay out of Serbia and yet tell the others that they should not leave. I know i won't get a straight answer from any of you but please try your best. :)
should we try to measure your stupidity by the number of assumptions you made in this post? lord nelson is not a serb at all. i am austrian of part-montenegrin descent and i'm also neutral in this. i am against fragmentation of the balkans in general. ems is, as she said, for the separation. i also did not flee the balkans, my father did. he did not flee from serbia, he left the former yugoslav state because he had been a political prisoner there.

but your stupidity is not the worst thing. you seem to believe that other nationalities should leave serbia while the serbs should suffer because they are evil or something. all serbs, including completely innocent children. is this way of thinking still acceptable in your part of the world? :unsure:

as i said, we can all safely conclude that you are simply an anti-serb idiot. and you are the one living in the past. i won't mention which period of the past exactly, but everyone can figure that one out.

Lord Nelson
Jun 25th, 2006, 04:33 PM
This is an honest question to all the pro-Union Serbs here... azdaza, EMS_, Lord Nelson and any others I missed. If you guys think that Serbia is such a great place to begin with why don't you live there. I noticed all you seem to live outside Serbia. And if you fleed Serbia, what gives you the right to tell Kosovo and Montenegro that they should not secede.... isn't it hypocritical of you to stay out of Serbia and yet tell the others that they should not leave. I know i won't get a straight answer from any of you but please try your best. :)
I think that there are many great nations in this world. Should I live in all of these nations. Ok I will but then give me some cash to settle there. You are quite something, aren't you?
I never said that Montenegro should not secede. I said that Kosovo should not secede. Montenegro was an autonomous republic whereas Kosovo was always part of Serbia. Kosovo will probably get its independance too but I hope that the Serbs should be able to hold to the northern enclaves that theys till control.
Azdaza, EMS and so on took the words right out of my mouth on you being a smartass etc. So on that I support and have nothing else to add. :)

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:16 PM
bump it up for all i care. i never said serbian government does the right thing. the trade route i described was used for a few thousand years and if economy would matter something to the people in the balkans it would be used now and in the future.
Hey that's all that matters... Serbia using Montenegro's coastline and Montenegrins in turn getting access to Serbian social services. That's what I was saying. everything is cool and I'm sure Belgrade knows better what is good for their economy and what is not. And don't take it personally, there is nothing wrong with relying on Montenegro for trade


well, moron, that has little to do with serbia per se. serbia was under sanctions during the 1990's. even so, standard of living has fallen in other places as well.
And we all know that Serbia earned those sanctions! which also inturn affeceted Montenegro and Kosovo which were dependent upon Serbia resulting in the fall in their living standards.

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:23 PM
And we all know that Serbia earned those sanctions! which also inturn affeceted Montenegro and Kosovo which were dependent upon Serbia resulting in the fall in their living standards.
kosovo has always sucked and they have had a de-facto independence for years and things haven't improved. montenegro actually profitted from the sanctions because the most important branch of their economy is smuggling. sanctions had more impact on the more developed parts of the country.

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:30 PM
should we try to measure your stupidity by the number of assumptions you made in this post? lord nelson is not a serb at all. i am austrian of part-montenegrin descent and i'm also neutral in this. i am against fragmentation of the balkans in general. ems is, as she said, for the separation. i also did not flee the balkans, my father did. he did not flee from serbia, he left the former yugoslav state because he had been a political prisoner there.

but your stupidity is not the worst thing. you seem to believe that other nationalities should leave serbia while the serbs should suffer because they are evil or something. all serbs, including completely innocent children. is this way of thinking still acceptable in your part of the world? :unsure:

as i said, we can all safely conclude that you are simply an anti-serb idiot. and you are the one living in the past. i won't mention which period of the past exactly, but everyone can figure that one out.
Well, I read the posts in this thread and both you and Lord Nelson sounded like Serbs, Lord Nelson was using typical Serb rhetoric and any person reading your posts would assume that you are serbs. And English people have a saying (sorry if I say it wrong) "When it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, chances are that it is a duck."

And where did I say that I wants serbs to suffer?

I typed it large coz you don't seem to be able to read or you'd know that I never said something like that. Yes I don't like Serbs and they don't like me either but that does not mean that I wish suffering on them, Yes I support other nationalities who want to break-away from Serbia, wouldn't you want to separate if the majority in the country you live always looked down upon your people? BTW-- thanks for calling me idiot and stupid an insult from some like you is a complement for me!

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:40 PM
Well, I read the posts in this thread and both you and Lord Nelson sounded like Serbs, Lord Nelson was using typical Serb rhetoric and any person reading your posts would assume that you are serbs. And English people have a saying (sorry if I say it wrong) "When it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, chances are that it is a duck."

And where did I say that I wants serbs to suffer?

I typed it large coz you don't seem to be able to read or you'd know that I never said something like that. Yes I don't like Serbs and they don't like me either but that does not mean that I wish suffering on them, Yes I support other nationalities who want to break-away from Serbia, wouldn't you want to separate if the majority in the country you live always looked down upon your people? BTW-- thanks for calling me idiot and stupid an insult from some like you is a complement for me!
like i care :rolleyes:

but i would like to point out that you are in a "good" company. the last time the balkans was divided in the way you would like to see was during the ww2 after the nazi germany occupied yugoslavia. worse still, most of the nationalist movements that you seem to support have their roots in the fascist movements the nazis supported. that and you saying that you don't like the serbs makes calling you an idiot not only deserved, but necessary.

i want to see a proper process of reconciliation in the balkans, but we are light years away from that unfortunately. people like you won't contribute to it either, so if you are not from there you should simply shut up.

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:48 PM
kosovo has always sucked and they have had a de-facto independence for years and things haven't improved. montenegro actually profitted from the sanctions because the most important branch of their economy is smuggling. sanctions had more impact on the more developed parts of the country.
Kosovo was never in such a bad situation that it was after Miloshevic revoked its autonomy back to pre-1974 levels and the Serbs supported it, after that the locals lost their jobs, the health and education funding was cut massively and all the subsidies it was getting before from Croatia and Slovenia were reduced and majority of it used in Serbia, Kosovo was a better place when Tito was in power.
And LMAO @ sanctions being good for Montenegro. :haha: Come on az, I know you are not that naive. Sanctions had devstaing impact on Montenegro, it had a huge impact on their health and education programmes so much to the extent that even Djukanovic who was Miloshevic's best friend turned against him and championed for economic autonomy of Montenegro from Serbia. :rolleyes:

Stark
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:50 PM
like i care :rolleyes:

but i would like to point out that you are in a "good" company. the last time the balkans was divided in the way you would like to see was during the ww2 after the nazi germany occupied yugoslavia. worse still, most of the nationalist movements that you seem to support have their roots in the fascist movements the nazis supported. that and you saying that you don't like the serbs makes calling you an idiot not only deserved, but necessary.

i want to see a proper process of reconciliation in the balkans, but we are light years away from that unfortunately. people like you won't contribute to it either, so if you are not from there you should simply shut up.
More rhetoric and greater-serbia nostalgia :tears: :lol: And I'm done with you for the day. Good Bye!!

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:51 PM
Kosovo was never in such a bad situation that it was after Miloshevic revoked its autonomy back to pre-1974 levels and the Serbs supported it, after that the locals lost their jobs, the health and education funding was cut massively and all the subsidies it was getting before from Croatia and Slovenia were reduced and majority of it used in Serbia, Kosovo was a better place when Tito was in power.
And LMAO @ sanctions being good for Montenegro. :haha: Come on az, I know you are not that naive. Sanctions had devstaing impact on Montenegro, it had a huge impact on their health and education programmes so much to the extent that even Djukanovic who was Miloshevic's best friend turned against him and championed for economic autonomy of Montenegro from Serbia. :rolleyes:
no comment. your understanding of economy and politics is even worse than your understanding of geography.

azdaja
Jun 25th, 2006, 08:58 PM
More rhetoric and greater-serbia nostalgia :tears: :lol: And I'm done with you for the day. Good Bye!!
"i'm done with you for the day" is actually the greatest example of rhetoric. it is usually used when a poster on a bulletin board wants to make impression that he/she is in a superior position and stuff :o

oh well, i did not expect any better from the moment you started posting.

Stark
Jun 26th, 2006, 04:46 AM
"i'm done with you for the day" is actually the greatest example of rhetoric. it is usually used when a poster on a bulletin board wants to make impression that he/she is in a superior position and stuff :o


Ummm no, I said it because I had to study and could not reply to your crap for the day.

Stark
Jun 26th, 2006, 04:48 AM
no comment. your understanding of economy and politics is even worse than your understanding of geography.

That's why I got such a great rebuttal from you. :lol:

Stark
Jun 26th, 2006, 05:08 AM
And let's end this now, azdaja, I'm getting sick of it. There is no point fighting over an internet forum over what has already happened. You feel that preservation of Yugoslavia is good for the balkans, I think otherwise. It doesn't matter what either of us think. What matters is that all the republics are on their own now and Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro have a better chance of entering EU without Serbia and will be doing it soon. Serbia may also be able to enter EU soon, if it can can clean up its mess fast and move on and that the serbs stop trying to support people who want to live in the past and still dream of a greater serbia(a.k.a Serbian Radical Party)!! And if Kosovo separates in future, Serbs should not take it personally, just have a couple of drinks and move on and not create a mess like in th 1990's. BTW-- I don't dislike Serbs, many of my friends in high school were actually Serbs. I was just pissed at having listen to Serbs who were pissed over montenegro's breakup over radio. :lol: And your desire of incorporating the Yugoslavia model back in the Balkans is also pretty absurd, anyone living there will tell you that it is not possible. Yugoslavia was good while Tito was alive. Without Tito ex-yu countries cannot be together. Have a great life. :) Bye. :wavey:

azdaja
Jun 26th, 2006, 11:06 AM
Ummm no, I said it because I had to study and could not reply to your crap for the day.
you could have said that yesterday as well. also, you say there is no reason to argue over internet about this, but it was you who dug out this thread which was dormant for about a month. why do you do stuff like that if it's not worth the effort?

and who cares whether you had serb friends at high-school? in austria people who dislike foreigners say precisely such things (about foreigners, of course). that has already become a joke.

i did not say the yugoslav model was the best for the balkans (that should be obvious from some of the stuff i said), i simply don't think the fragmentation of the region is good for the people there (this includes other countries as much as it includes what used to be yugoslavia). it may be good for some, but it's bad for the most. the eu did not support montenegrin independence for the same reason. are you suggesting the eu dream about greater serbia as well?

so, let's not even ask whether what you said is factually correct (it isn't for the most part and some of it does not even make sense at all, but let's ignore that), let's just take a look at how you interpret the stuff other people say. obviously your jumping to conclusions is weird and i suppose it was shaped by some strange political mindset (that could also explain the stuff that doesn't make sense). perhaps the balkan one? in that case you have my sympathy, but i insist you don't try to talk to me on your terms. i may have my roots in the balkans and i generally like the people from there, but the place is a mess and some of the stuff people from there say (including some of the stuff you said) is very problematic, to put it mildly.

i hope the sanity will return to the balkans soon, the people there deserve better. and i did not change my opinion about you in the slightest.