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Szymanowski
Feb 12th, 2006, 09:12 PM
I have only just realised that something like the cartoons published in the Danish newspaper would cause so much offence. I think most would agree the reaction was completely over the top, but we need to try to understand different religions better. To be honest, I'm a Christian, and I see people making jokes about my religion ten times a day. I think nothing of it because otherwise I would probably go insane from arguing.

So why was it that the cartoons caused such anger amongst Muslim communities?

I only want to know so I have a better understanding of Islam; I want to understand and respecting everyone's values, especially Muslims, who I feel I should know more about.

Homer & Co
Feb 12th, 2006, 09:28 PM
I have only just realised that something like the cartoons published in the Danish newspaper would cause so much offence.
Well duh! You should never underestimate the power of cartoons... They're powerful.

firehorse
Feb 12th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Hello Alkan....
Because of difernt cultures and values...for some countries, peole may not get offended that easily like you mentioned..I do not know where you are coming from...but for Indoensian. malaysian or other muslim countries..it is no..no to draw a Mohammed, let alone to make fun of it...
I agree that in some countries mixed with anti western, it made things worse or may overreacted but they have a right to be very upset but in my opinion...western may have freedom to express their opinion but they ahve to undertsand that the consequences could rise and other people can become victim because of his or her freedom of expression...is that worth it??? I am not sure....

I think we have to eb a bit sensitive and considerate as we share this planet and live together./....PEACE!!

I think all of us need to be

meyerpl
Feb 12th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I'm an atheist, but I respect people of faith and seek not to offend anyone in that regard. My question is this: Why the HELL would people get so offended as to go on A violent, destructive rampage over some stupid CARTOONS, while they sit mute, saying and doing nothing, while people are STRINGING UP TEENAGE GIRLS BY THE NECK FOR BEING RAPED OR BLOWING UP PUBLIC BUILDINGS FILLED WITH INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF ISLAM??!!?? WTF???

firehorse
Feb 12th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I'm an atheist, but I respect people of faith and seek not to offend anyone in that regard. My question is this: Why the HELL would people get so offended as to go on A violent, destructive rampage over some stupid CARTOONS, while they sit mute, saying and doing nothing, while people are STRINGING UP TEENAGE GIRLS BY THE NECK FOR BEING RAPED OR BLOWING UP PUBLIC BUILDINGS FILLED WITH INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF ISLAM??!!?? WTF???


Different people/culture.....different feeling..like in your case..you are atheist so you do not care....some people care very much about their religions..
It is not about islam that they can be violent....if you offend certain religions.you may expect same thing.....
just like you said...if you respect other religions..dont ever make fun of it..Period!!!

Same thing like boys being raped or molested in Catholic church?? what do you say about that?
Not all islam will be okay if a girl got raped then we pucnih the girll..I am from Indoensia..we see hings different...again..just like christians.. you will see different type of christians..some are okay with homosexuals, some are not...

PEACE!

SelesFan70
Feb 12th, 2006, 11:29 PM
I have only just realised that something like the cartoons published in the Danish newspaper would cause so much offence. I think most would agree the reaction was completely over the top, but we need to try to understand different religions better. To be honest, I'm a Christian, and I see people making jokes about my religion ten times a day. I think nothing of it because otherwise I would probably go insane from arguing.

So why was it that the cartoons caused such anger amongst Muslim communities?

I only want to know so I have a better understanding of Islam; I want to understand and respecting everyone's values, especially Muslims, who I feel I should know more about.

Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:

new-york
Feb 12th, 2006, 11:37 PM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:

who are "the muslims"? what is it, a whole group of violent and crazy people? Do you know one muslim?
Guess now i know why you were comparing them to Nazis in another post.

But i really hope statin those things, you're way more informated about Islam than the millions of them who practice their religion peacefully.

Fox news is a bomb.

RVD
Feb 12th, 2006, 11:50 PM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:You shouldn't kid around like that. I'm not religious, but I respect those who are. And not all Muslims are driven by hate. http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

Incidentally, have you ever read the Koran?
Are you saying that the Koran condones killing people outside the faith?
You certainly post a lot of hateful statements. :scratch:

bionic71
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:00 AM
As a counter point...some of the anti-semetic and anti-christian cartoons that appear regularly in Islamic publications are as equally abhorent to the faithful as those published recently in the Danish press and considered to be mocking the islamic faith.

Round and round in circles...

....

meyerpl
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:09 AM
who are "the muslims"? what is it, a whole group of violent and crazy people? Do you know one muslim?
Guess now i know why you were comparing them to Nazis in another post.

But i really hope statin those things, you're way more informated about Islam than the millions of them who practice their religion peacefully.

Fox news is a bomb.
See, that's the head-scratcher for me. I don't know any Muslims very well, and the few I do know aren't bomb-throwing nut-cases. They seem like wonderful people.
Something is very wrong though. Do Christians get offended when somebody makes fun of their religion? Yes. Maybe. Do they turn out in mobs, start killing people and burning buildings? Nooooo. Firehorse made an analogy about Catholic priests molesting kids. It isn't the same thing. A priest burning someone at the stake in the town square with the blessing of the Church would be a closer analogy. I don't know of any entire nations ruled with an iron fist by Catholic priests. I'm not branding the Islamic faith a bad religion; not at all. It just seems to me that, in practice, they're about five to six hundred years behind Christianity in terms of human rights. I ask myself, "How could people do those things in the name of religion?" when I read history. I ask myself the same question about Islam when I read the news!

dementieva's fan
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:44 AM
Ever noticed how muslims on wtaworld rarely post in the threads directed towards them? This is the reason why-
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:
:rolleyes:

I'm not religeous and honestly I don't know much about Islam but I know some muslims who are wonderful people, not brainwashed terrorists as you always seem to generalize.

azmad_88
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:48 AM
I think you guys got the wrong info.My country is the leader of OIC(Organisation of Islamic Countries) and our country didnt have anything to attack or any road rage or anything negative but that doesnt tell us that we are not upset.Our Prime Minister handles this very well and diplomatically.Even Denmark call us for help.What im trying to say is,some people choose different ways to express their anger.But i saw the news last night,in London i think hundreds of Muslim express their feelings very well.No violence.Just normal.That is good.But in some places,they might be too offended.So they act without thinking.And for the bombings and all,i totally disagree on what they are doing,but just imagine if you are a Muslim going around the world,people will look down on you.My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims.I mean its tough for us.But again why must muslim be assosiated with terrorism,? Well,i think its how people labelled muslim time after time and they react to it.I just want world peace.please.

skanky~skanketta
Feb 13th, 2006, 05:19 AM
I think you guys got the wrong info.My country is the leader of OIC(Organisation of Islamic Countries) and our country didnt have anything to attack or any road rage or anything negative but that doesnt tell us that we are not upset.Our Prime Minister handles this very well and diplomatically.Even Denmark call us for help.What im trying to say is,some people choose different ways to express their anger.But i saw the news last night,in London i think hundreds of Muslim express their feelings very well.No violence.Just normal.That is good.But in some places,they might be too offended.So they act without thinking.And for the bombings and all,i totally disagree on what they are doing,but just imagine if you are a Muslim going around the world,people will look down on you.My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims.I mean its tough for us.But again why must muslim be assosiated with terrorism,? Well,i think its how people labelled muslim time after time and they react to it.I just want world peace.please.

i agree with everything you've said but the bolded part. how can you be sure of that?

new-york
Feb 13th, 2006, 05:32 AM
See, that's the head-scratcher for me. I don't know any Muslims very well, and the few I do know aren't bomb-throwing nut-cases. They seem like wonderful people.
Something is very wrong though. Do Christians get offended when somebody makes fun of their religion? Yes. Maybe. Do they turn out in mobs, start killing people and burning buildings? Nooooo. Firehorse made an analogy about Catholic priests molesting kids. It isn't the same thing. A priest burning someone at the stake in the town square with the blessing of the Church would be a closer analogy. I don't know of any entire nations ruled with an iron fist by Catholic priests. I'm not branding the Islamic faith a bad religion; not at all. It just seems to me that, in practice, they're about five to six hundred years behind Christianity in terms of human rights. I ask myself, "How could people do those things in the name of religion?" when I read history. I ask myself the same question about Islam when I read the news!

i'm wondering too. really.

ceiling_fan
Feb 13th, 2006, 05:46 AM
I have only just realised that something like the cartoons published in the Danish newspaper would cause so much offence. I think most would agree the reaction was completely over the top, but we need to try to understand different religions better. To be honest, I'm a Christian, and I see people making jokes about my religion ten times a day. I think nothing of it because otherwise I would probably go insane from arguing.

So why was it that the cartoons caused such anger amongst Muslim communities?

I only want to know so I have a better understanding of Islam; I want to understand and respecting everyone's values, especially Muslims, who I feel I should know more about.

I think you should be directing this to the extremist Muslims who are causing the violence. There are 'normal' passive Muslims aswell and most of them (according to media) did not like the cartoons but aren't resorting to violence.

Anyway, it is quite extreme, but wouldn't you be offended if there was a very rude cartoon depicting Jesus in a bad way? Also, remember when the Catholics got upset because of a South Park episode involving the statue of Mary mother of Jesus menstruating?

Btw, you say "to be honest, I'm a Christian". Does that imply that you sometimes don't tell the truth about your faith? (Sorry, this isn't meant to be heard in an accusative way, just wondering)

Gerben
Feb 13th, 2006, 05:57 AM
In my opinion it comes down to two things.

First of all, do not make fun of religion. Why should you want to hurt people in their conviction?
Second, the Muslim countries should be consequent and stop publishing offending cartoons about other religions. How can you demand others to stop doing while you are doing the same thing?

The world would be a much better place if we started to respect each other more.

tennisrox
Feb 13th, 2006, 06:00 AM
I think you guys got the wrong info.My country is the leader of OIC(Organisation of Islamic Countries) and our country didnt have anything to attack or any road rage or anything negative but that doesnt tell us that we are not upset.Our Prime Minister handles this very well and diplomatically.Even Denmark call us for help.What im trying to say is,some people choose different ways to express their anger.But i saw the news last night,in London i think hundreds of Muslim express their feelings very well.No violence.Just normal.That is good.But in some places,they might be too offended.So they act without thinking.And for the bombings and all,i totally disagree on what they are doing,but just imagine if you are a Muslim going around the world,people will look down on you.My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims.I mean its tough for us.But again why must muslim be assosiated with terrorism,? Well,i think its how people labelled muslim time after time and they react to it.I just want world peace.please.

If you want people to respect your religion,moderate muslims need to have louder voices.All we hear is about fanatics,so we generalize,and think your whole religion is comprised of fanatics,which is of course not true.Its a media thing.There are plenty of christain fanatics,but there are moderates who are willing to speak up,against fanaticism.
When you allow a sizeable minority of fanatics to take control of your religion,and become the spokespeople,what else do you expect?Moderates need to speak up,and vociferously condemn terrorism,and intolerance,but we rarely hear much from them.You need to take control of your own religion,or these prejudices will just get worse.When a bunch of nitwits like the Taliban are allowed to take over,and supress an entire country,i'd say you have a problem.Until ordinary muslims are left free to interpret their religion in the way they see fit,and are not forced to live their lives according to the warped interpretations of a few idiots,I just think this situation will get worse.Its a mob mentality.

~ The Leopard ~
Feb 13th, 2006, 06:43 AM
First of all, do not make fun of religion. Why should you want to hurt people in their conviction?


Would you ban South Park, The Life of Brian, etc? What about the works of Voltaire and Bertrand Russell? Or what about the whole Spaghetti Monster thing?

Fortunately, we live in a society where people can use humour as a way of countering ideas, including religious ones, that they disagree with strongly and consider absurd.

I'm really scratching my head at all these posters who have come out of the woodwork to tell us not to make fun of religion. Have Enlightenment values really fallen into disrepute that much?

Let's have more satire of religion. Religion is an enormously powerful and dangerous force which is about the most legitimate target for satire I can think of.

Erika_Angel
Feb 13th, 2006, 06:54 AM
It is one thing to be offended because your religion is being made fun of, being violated etc. Those cartoons were completely out of order and should not have been printed in the Danish media. Sure free speech is something we value, but so is tolerance and respect for other's beliefs.

However, violence in any form, especially when it endangers the lives of others, is NO WAY to react to any type of criticism to a certain religion or belief. The Muslims who took part in these violent protests have made a mockery of the religion and any Muslim should feel ashamed and angered because of these people.

If they think vulgar cartoons can devalue their religion, watch how much the views of the Muslim religion have plummeted recently, not because of the cartoons but because of the backlash towards them.

firehorse
Feb 13th, 2006, 08:07 AM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:

haha..thats big BS Seles!!

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 08:31 AM
My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims.
no offence mate, but this is a load rubbish. :)

someone has lied to you.

Wigglytuff
Feb 13th, 2006, 08:48 AM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:
how is that any different from what many christians have done and continue to do? (see: starving marvin in space)

p.s. i will assume (though i am likely wrong that you mean SOME muslims.)

Wigglytuff
Feb 13th, 2006, 08:50 AM
You shouldn't kid around like that. I'm not religious, but I respect those who are. And not all Muslims are driven by hate. http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

Incidentally, have you ever read the Koran?
Are you saying that the Koran condones killing people outside the faith?
You certainly post a lot of hateful statements. :scratch:
:worship:

Martian Jeza
Feb 13th, 2006, 09:11 AM
Don't forget extreme islamics people manipulate people who are desperate : That's one of their easiest way of doing... Go and explode yourself in the middle of a street with many people around, in a tube station, in a bus or wathever and you are called a hero by them... Yeah by killing people in the name of islam you will go to heaven : The biggest religious bullshit I've ever heard : A pitty there are people who believe in it ... The brainwashing of some also is very dangerous : who is not into islam is evil... Islam can be a very good religion ( The majortiy, I think, make an excellent use of Islam ) but at my eyes, this is the most dangerous religion in the world...

Erika_Angel
Feb 13th, 2006, 09:25 AM
how is that any different from what many christians have done and continue to do? (see: starving marvin in space)

p.s. i will assume (though i am likely wrong that you mean SOME muslims.)

:rolleyes:

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 09:36 AM
My question is this: Why the HELL would people get so offended as to go on A violent, destructive rampage over some stupid CARTOONS, while they sit mute, saying and doing nothing, while people are STRINGING UP TEENAGE GIRLS BY THE NECK FOR BEING RAPED OR BLOWING UP PUBLIC BUILDINGS FILLED WITH INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF ISLAM??!!?? WTF???

You know the answer to that question.

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 09:42 AM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:

You know I like you and you crack me up :lol: but it's more fun to laugh with you than at you :(.

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 09:44 AM
In my opinion it comes down to two things.

First of all, do not make fun of religion. Why should you want to hurt people in their conviction?
Second, the Muslim countries should be consequent and stop publishing offending cartoons about other religions. How can you demand others to stop doing while you are doing the same thing?

The world would be a much better place if we started to respect each other more.

:yeah:

Yasmine
Feb 13th, 2006, 10:51 AM
If you want people to respect your religion,moderate muslims need to have louder voices.All we hear is about fanatics,so we generalize,and think your whole religion is comprised of fanatics,which is of course not true.Its a media thing.There are plenty of christain fanatics,but there are moderates who are willing to speak up,against fanaticism.
When you allow a sizeable minority of fanatics to take control of your religion,and become the spokespeople,what else do you expect?Moderates need to speak up,and vociferously condemn terrorism,and intolerance,but we rarely hear much from them.You need to take control of your own religion,or these prejudices will just get worse.When a bunch of nitwits like the Taliban are allowed to take over,and supress an entire country,i'd say you have a problem.Until ordinary muslims are left free to interpret their religion in the way they see fit,and are not forced to live their lives according to the warped interpretations of a few idiots,I just think this situation will get worse.Its a mob mentality.
Exactly! Half of my family is muslim and I am considered as a muslim when I go to morroco since I have the citizenship, although I grew up in France in a very atheist way. Most people associate the whole muslim population to the few who are putting bombs spreading hate towards the western world and as a consequence that minority is growing every day that goes. I definitely think that the more moderate parts should start thinking about doing something about it and speak up.

Yeah by killing people in the name of islam you will go to heaven : The biggest religious bullshit I've ever heard : A pitty there are people who believe in it ...
Thats the whole problem imo. Muslim countries are not countries in which all kids go to school get an education, learn to think for themselves because of oppressing governments who are just looking for manipulation and power... The day everyone in muslim countries is be able to make their own mind things will change, and that will take a long time and it certainly not something extremists want...

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 11:41 AM
If you want people to respect your religion,moderate muslims need to have louder voices.All we hear is about fanatics,so we generalize,and think your whole religion is comprised of fanatics,which is of course not true.

If you know it's not true then why do you generalise?

Wigglytuff
Feb 13th, 2006, 11:44 AM
:rolleyes:
you could do that, or you could answer the question. :confused:

tennisrox
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:07 PM
If you know it's not true then why do you generalise?

I don't consider all muslims to be fanatics.I've met plenty of moderate muslims,and they happen to be wonderful people.The western media generalizes,and because of that,so do many of the people on the street.The media gives lots of column space to the doings of fanatics,but we hear very little from the point of view of the moderates.The point is,sensationalism sells,so they give far more prominence to fanatics.Who wants to hear what a bunch of literate people in suits have to say?

The problem is also fear.Salman Rushdie says exactly what he thinks about his religion,and gets death threats.The people responsible for spoiling the image of islam,are in the minority,but unfortunately they are a very powerful minority.I can't see this going on forever.With more education,and awareness the moderate population will increase,and eventually they are going to get sick of this bullshit.You can't run peoples lives and control their thoughts.It happened in the middle ages with the church,and it will eventually happen with islam too.A lot of young people in iran are sick of all the opression,and are already starting to rebel,by living their own lives in secret.It won't stay that way.Eventually they are going to come out,and boot the morons out of power.Its all about education,and liberalisation.It will take a very long time,but it will happen.

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 12:17 PM
The western media generalizes,and because of that,so do many of the people on the street.The media gives lots of column space to the doings of fanatics,but we hear very little from the point of view of the moderates.The point is,sensationalism sells,so they give far more prominence to fanatics.Who wants to hear what a bunch of literate people in suits have to say?


Well doesn't that make the problem with the attitide of western people on the street and their media rather than moderate muslims?

Surely each individual person has a right to have it assumed that they do support violence unless they explicitly express that they do - rather than the other way around?

azdaja
Feb 13th, 2006, 01:19 PM
Well doesn't that make the problem with the attitide of western people on the street and their media rather than moderate muslims?

Surely each individual person has a right to have it assumed that they do support violence unless they explicitly express that they do - rather than the other way around?
true. no individual needs to go out of their way to say that they don't support violence or crime or anything similar. you are innocent until proven guilty.

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 01:21 PM
I agree that it is vital that the "moderate" Muslims do get seen to be opposing extremism, but is anybody actually aware that 40,000 Muslims protested peacefully in London over the weekend, against both the cartoons and the violent, extremist protests? The media doesn't particularly want us to know that there are such things as peaceful, moderate Muslims, and if the media doesn't report it, the message doesn't get across. The onus is on them as well as the moderate Muslims.

Louis Cyphre
Feb 13th, 2006, 01:32 PM
I think that someone "helped" Muslim to react like that ;) But it`s a long story and i dont want to discuss it in tennis forum

Nimrodg
Feb 13th, 2006, 01:41 PM
I respect most of the muslims and I know some good of them - but this religion is the most violent religion. I think it's based on inciting - how many of you know that Israel and Iran were "friends" till 1978? look what's happening over there now, that's pretty amazing.
There are some reasons for the violence, but the main is that in the most of the muslim nations the religion comes first, I think that in some places the violence starts from the mosques, where the "mofti" preach the people that no one can insult their religion.

Although the cartoons are disgusting there are some ways to protest, unfortunately most of the Islamic people don't know them yet

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 01:53 PM
I respect most of the muslims and I know some good of them - but this religion is the most violent religion. I think it's based on inciting - how many of you know that Israel and Iran were "friends" till 1978? look what's happening over there now, that's pretty amazing.
There are some reasons for the violence, but the main is that in the most of the muslim nations the religion comes first, I think that in some places the violence starts from the mosques, where the "mofti" preach the people that no one can insult their religion.

Although the cartoons are disgusting there are some ways to protest, unfortunately most of the Islamic people don't know them yet

Like I said, I feel that it is only a minority of Islamic people who are protesting in a violent way. Thousands have demonstrated peacefully against the cartoons.

Nimrodg
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Like I said, I feel that it is only a minority of Islamic people who are protesting in a violent way. Thousands have demonstrated peacefully against the cartoons.

I think thousands is not enough. I saw Ahmadinejad's speech, the prisedent of Iran few days ago and I was disgusting from the milions who cheers him when he calls to act in violence and when he said there was no holocaust. There's no place in the world for people like him.

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:22 PM
is anybody actually aware that 40,000 Muslims protested peacefully in London over the weekend
no, but i am aware of this congregation;

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=14760

"Some 4,000 protesters gathered in London’s Trafalgar Square"

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:24 PM
no, but i am aware of this congregation;

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=14760

"Some 4,000 protesters gathered in London’s Trafalgar Square"

Well, according to the Daily Mirror the figure was 40,000....and the columnist in question is a moderate right-of-centre, anti-PC kind of guy.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tonyparsons/tm_objectid=16697035%26method=full%26siteid=94762% 26headline=get%2dtough%2don%2dterror%2d%2d%2dfor%2 dmuslims%2d%2dsake%2d-name_page.html

köj-è
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Let me break it all down for you in 2 sentences: The muslims' ultimate goal is to convert you to islam. If you resist you are an infidel, and they will kill you since that's what the koran tells them to do.

:wavey:
:lol: what a very stupid statement in Koran.. where on earth did you read them?? :lol: or even you make it yourself?? :lol:

Yasmine
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:27 PM
I agree that it is vital that the "moderate" Muslims do get seen to be opposing extremism, but is anybody actually aware that 40,000 Muslims protested peacefully in London over the weekend, against both the cartoons and the violent, extremist protests? The media doesn't particularly want us to know that there are such things as peaceful, moderate Muslims, and if the media doesn't report it, the message doesn't get across. The onus is on them as well as the moderate Muslims.
I agree :yeah: (why doesn't that surprise me Chris? :o) The media are playing a huge role by showing what they want us to see which will help them have big selling headlines...

Yasmine
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:30 PM
Well, according to the Daily Mirror the figure was 40,000....and the columnist in question is a moderate right-of-centre, anti-PC kind of guy.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tonyparsons/tm_objectid=16697035%26method=full%26siteid=94762% 26headline=get%2dtough%2don%2dterror%2d%2d%2dfor%2 dmuslims%2d%2dsake%2d-name_page.html
I don't think the point that the media should point out is about a number... Whether they were 4 or 40 thousands, it needs to be pointed out that a few muslims do not agree with some fanatic attitude and are showing it. I think that by bringing it up that way it surely would make a few more react and maybe everyone would realise that actually those integrists are a minority.

azmad_88
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:31 PM
at least let us all prove to the world that this board everybody is ok with everyone

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Well, according to the Daily Mirror the figure was 40,000....and the columnist in question is a moderate right-of-centre, anti-PC kind of guy.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tonyparsons/tm_objectid=16697035%26method=full%26siteid=94762% 26headline=get%2dtough%2don%2dterror%2d%2d%2dfor%2 dmuslims%2d%2dsake%2d-name_page.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aThzcvc7xtnk&refer=uk
About 3,000 British Muslims and peace campaigners converged on London's Trafalgar Square today...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C12%5Cstory_12-2-2006_pg7_47

Up to 4,000 demonstrators converged on Trafalgar Square in central London...

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=1349457

More than 5,000 Muslims gathered in Trafalgar Square...

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:43 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aThzcvc7xtnk&refer=uk
About 3,000 British Muslims and peace campaigners converged on London's Trafalgar Square today...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C12%5Cstory_12-2-2006_pg7_47

Up to 4,000 demonstrators converged on Trafalgar Square in central London...

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=845&ArticleID=1349457

More than 5,000 Muslims gathered in Trafalgar Square...

Ok, whatever, I amn't going to dispute the figures or even look for them, yours might be right. However, like Yasmine says it isn't the actual figures which are the crucial things, its the fact that this stuff never makes the front pages of newspapers. Its always the negative stuff regarding Muslims. The point is that the only side of Islam that the general public gets to see is the ugly, extremist side.

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:43 PM
My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims
no offence mate, but this is a load rubbish. :)

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:50 PM
The point is that the only side of Islam that the general public gets to see is the ugly, extremist side.
thats life.

people blowing themselves up in public transport is always going to get a lot more attention than a congregation protesting cartoons.

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 02:54 PM
thats life.

people blowing themselves up in public transport is always going to get more attention than a congregation protesting cartoons.

Oh come on :rolleyes: This isn't about people blowing themselves up on public transport, and who are we to take the moral high ground on that issue?? It was a collection of largely "Christian" countries that bombed Iraq to hell after all, killing and maiming thousands of innocent people including women and children.
People were saying that moderate Muslims should do more to denounce the extremists, my point is that this is difficult when the media doesn't pay attention to their efforts to do just that.

gsm
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:00 PM
People were saying that moderate Muslims should do more to denounce the extremists, my point is that this is difficult when the media doesn't pay attention to their efforts to do just that.
yes your right, people are saying that moderate muslims should do more to protest against extremists, not cartoons.

regarding the reporting of the protest in london, it was reported.

what do you want, front page headlines saying;

muslims protest without making threats!

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:04 PM
yes your right, people are saying that moderate muslims should do more to protest against extremists, not cartoons.

regarding the reporting of the protest in london, it was reported.

what do you want, front page headlines saying;

muslims protest without making threats!

The protest in London (and smaller protests took place across the UK) was about both the cartoons and the extremists. The general public is getting a very jaundiced view of Islam and of Muslims because that's what suits the press. And although these protests may have been reported, they aren't generally going to be heard about by the average guy on the street.

Nimrodg
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:11 PM
The point is that the only side of Islam that the general public gets to see is the ugly, extremist side.

And this side is responsible for killing so many people. I think that Mohammad was ashamed if he would've see the violence

Chris 84
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM
And this side is responsible for killing so many people. I think that Mohammad was ashamed if he would've see the violence

I agree, I'm sure he would be.

All I'm saying is, and I know in previous posts you have said that most Muslims are good people, that we can't afford to generalise. There are a few extremists who give Islam a bad name, but the vast majority of Muslims are good people.

Nimrodg
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:26 PM
I agree, I'm sure he would be.

All I'm saying is, and I know in previous posts you have said that most Muslims are good people, that we can't afford to generalise. There are a few extremists who give Islam a bad name, but the vast majority of Muslims are good people.

But still, when I visiting some countries in Europe I was afraid that people found out that I am an Israeli.
There are only a few extremists from the whole muslim, but if you'll say that they are like 1% from the whole muslims, it will count as millions(and there are millions)

Sally Struthers
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:47 PM
Anyway, it is quite extreme, but wouldn't you be offended if there was a very rude cartoon depicting Jesus in a bad way? Also, remember when the Catholics got upset because of a South Park episode involving the statue of Mary mother of Jesus menstruating?


Some people might find it offensive but I say they're too sensitive! Anyway we don't go strapping bombs to outselves and blowing people up, crashing planes into skyscrapers, or burning down embassies. We file lawsuits. :o

Kart
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:52 PM
Some people might find it offensive but I say they're too sensitive! Anyway we don't go strapping bombs to outselves and blowing people up, crashing planes into skyscrapers, or burning down embassies. We file lawsuits. :o

On an unrelated topic, Sally I was watching Murder, She Wrote last week and you were in it :worship:.

I've finally heard of you :D.

Martian Willow
Feb 13th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Hello. :wavey:

Sorry to butt in, but I thought this would be a good place to explain my dislike of islam, as a self-confessed and generally acknowledged islamophobe. :)

Before I start, I would like to make something clear: I do not make any generalisations or assumptions about muslims, or people-who-call-themselves-muslims, beyond the fact that they are muslims, or call themselves muslims. I don't believe that all muslims are suicide bombers, hang teenage rape victims, sacrifice goats or are even raging homophobes. Okay? :D

My problem with islam is this:

A muslim is a person who believes the quran to be the direct word of god, as ennunciated through the prophet Mohammed. In my view, the quran contains some rather objectionable things. Therefore, I consider that declaring the quran to be the direct word of god (as ennunciated through the prophet Mohammed), even if it is through the simple act of declaring oneself to be a muslim, to be objectionable.

Even if a muslim, or a person-who-calls-themself-a-muslim does not actually do or believe anything objectionable, they are still propogating a body of ideas (the quran) which is objectionable (or contains objecionable things), and encouraging or supporting the belief that objectionable things are the direct word of god (as ennunciated through the prophet Mohammed), which will inevitably lead to more people doing or believing objectionable things.

Which is bad, if you ask me.

This is not analogous to christianity and the bible, because a christian, or a person-who-calls-themself-a-christian is not making any statements about the bible, or their beliefs with regard to the bible.

I hope some kind muslim or person-who-calls-themself-a-muslim can offer some useful response to this. :D

venusfan
Feb 13th, 2006, 04:19 PM
The cartoons justifies what the protesters are doing. Still shocked we haven't seen a suicide bomb yet or they just waiting for more virgins to born.

Xian
Feb 13th, 2006, 04:35 PM
in fact many Muslims just needed sth to protest against and the cartoons gave them sth. And I think we dont need a "everybody loves everybody" thread at this board, cause I dont wanna talk to any Muslim from this board who just says one word to defend those protests

köj-è
Feb 13th, 2006, 06:06 PM
in fact many Muslims just needed sth to protest against and the cartoons gave them sth. And I think we dont need a "everybody loves everybody" thread at this board, cause I dont wanna talk to any Muslim from this board who just says one word to defend those protests
What do you mean by these?
Sorry, for myself, I can't say more than "one word" because I don't speak english very well, and in fact I do believe that both side are wrong and I let God to punish them, I don't have the right to judge them but perform what I believe is right.

Lord Nelson
Feb 13th, 2006, 06:50 PM
I think you guys got the wrong info.My country is the leader of OIC(Organisation of Islamic Countries) and our country didnt have anything to attack or any road rage or anything negative but that doesnt tell us that we are not upset.Our Prime Minister handles this very well and diplomatically.Even Denmark call us for help.What im trying to say is,some people choose different ways to express their anger.But i saw the news last night,in London i think hundreds of Muslim express their feelings very well.No violence.Just normal.That is good.But in some places,they might be too offended.So they act without thinking.And for the bombings and all,i totally disagree on what they are doing,but just imagine if you are a Muslim going around the world,people will look down on you.My cousin and his family cant even enter Australia for holidays because we are muslims.I mean its tough for us.But again why must muslim be assosiated with terrorism,? Well,i think its how people labelled muslim time after time and they react to it.I just want world peace.please.
Please don't continue you are breaking my heart. People cannot get a visa to Australia because they are Muslim? Yeah right, they don't discriminate like the Malaysian government where only Muslims are not allowed to have visas to enter Malaysia. But others have to so there, happy?
Your present leader is alright but the previous one, Mahatir is a scumbag who has nothing better to do then lash out at the West including Australia. And you are bitching about your cousin not being able to go to Australia?
I love Malaysia though since Malaysia also gave Singapore its independence. :yeah:
The country is doing well but they should get rid of their positive discrimination law which favors....the malay majority!

dementieva's fan
Feb 13th, 2006, 10:00 PM
As a counter point...some of the anti-semetic and anti-christian cartoons that appear regularly in Islamic publications are as equally abhorent to the faithful as those published recently in the Danish press and considered to be mocking the islamic faith.

Round and round in circles...

....

Anti Semetic maybe yes, Anti-christian I highly doubt, btw do you go around reading everything published by the muslims?

bionic71
Feb 13th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Anti Semetic maybe yes, Anti-christian I highly doubt, btw do you go around reading everything published by the muslims?

No, they are not high on my reading list as I am unable to read Arabic.
However, one of my work collegues, an Arabic language teacher who has lived in Australia since 1983 has shown me many examples of such cartoons and I can assure you that both anti-semetic and anti-christian cartoons appear in Islamic publications. Of course anti-semetic representations out number the anti-christian ones....however anti-christian cartoons have been appearing more and more frequently in the recent decade.

dementieva's fan
Feb 13th, 2006, 11:38 PM
No, they are not high on my reading list as I am unable to read Arabic.
However, one of my work collegues, an Arabic language teacher who has lived in Australia since 1983 has shown me many examples of such cartoons and I can assure you that both anti-semetic and anti-christian cartoons appear in Islamic publications. Of course anti-semetic representations out number the anti-christian ones....however anti-christian cartoons have been appearing more and more frequently in the recent decade.

The number of anti-semetic publications by christians still outnumber those published by the muslims.

I saw Pat Robertson on the front cover of the latest copy of Al-Qaeda digest :tape:

bionic71
Feb 14th, 2006, 12:08 AM
The number of anti-semetic publications by christians still outnumber those published by the muslims.

I saw Pat Robertson on the front cover of the latest copy of Al-Qaeda digest :tape:

I was never doubting it.

DutchieGirl
Feb 14th, 2006, 12:21 AM
Different people/culture.....different feeling..like in your case..you are atheist so you do not care....some people care very much about their religions..
It is not about islam that they can be violent....if you offend certain religions.you may expect same thing.....
just like you said...if you respect other religions..dont ever make fun of it..Period!!!

Same thing like boys being raped or molested in Catholic church?? what do you say about that?
Not all islam will be okay if a girl got raped then we pucnih the girll..I am from Indoensia..we see hings different...again..just like christians.. you will see different type of christians..some are okay with homosexuals, some are not...

PEACE!

well for one thing: the boys who get raped in Catholic churches aren't then strung up and killed by people in that country... of course it's not ok for that to happen, but the people it happened to aren't then killed (and no, I'm certainly NOT a catholic)...and OMG did I just defend the church? :eek:

And so are you sayin gthat if someone offends your religion its OK to become violent and go bomb some building because you feel offended? Come on...

DutchieGirl
Feb 14th, 2006, 12:34 AM
The cartoons justifies what the protesters are doing. Still shocked we haven't seen a suicide bomb yet or they just waiting for more virgins to born.

That was a joke, right?

SelesFan70
Feb 14th, 2006, 01:29 AM
5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”


9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm

I just googled "Muslim infidel" and page after page after page of stuff like that came up. :tape: That's really all the proof I need. :wavey:

However, to be fair, it would seem the reason to be IN a religion is to convert people to think like you..otherwise why bother? I am quite aware of the Catholic Church's history of blood-shed but the muslims are the modern day equivelent of that. The question is will we let history repeat itself or not and how many people will die in the name of a religion? Personally, I am still hopeful that some muslim somehow, somewhere will take a stand...but I lose more hope each passing second...

Wigglytuff
Feb 14th, 2006, 02:32 AM
5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”


9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm

I just googled "Muslim infidel" and page after page after page of stuff like that came up. :tape: That's really all the proof I need. :wavey:

However, to be fair, it would seem the reason to be IN a religion is to convert people to think like you..otherwise why bother? I am quite aware of the Catholic Church's history of blood-shed but the muslims are the modern day equivelent of that. The question is will we let history repeat itself or not and how many people will die in the name of a religion? Personally, I am still hopeful that some muslim somehow, somewhere will take a stand...but I lose more hope each passing second...

hmmmm. lets also get a look at the bible:

Matthew
-- 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."

human sacrifice
"The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS (bible style)
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

the bible commands murder, slavery and rape here:
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery? the kind that thinks that raping a girl is a good way to get her to marry you and never be able to leave...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

if she wont marry you, she can always be stoned to death:
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death.

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS BIBLE STYLE PART TWO!!

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS CHRISTIAN STYLE PART THREE (now includes babies, children and good Samaritans.)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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google can be used to quote more than one book to make it look a particular way.

which leads me back to my original point... its the same shit some Christians do today and have 100% done in the past. but you cant be an ignorant bastard and blame everyone for what some people do. and if you think the koran favors killing, take a good read at the bible and tell me with start face that it does so any less than the koran.

dementieva's fan
Feb 14th, 2006, 02:40 AM
5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”


9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17-It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

http://www.ropma.net/killing_by_beheading_is_islamic.htm

I just googled "Muslim infidel" and page after page after page of stuff like that came up. :tape: That's really all the proof I need. :wavey:

However, to be fair, it would seem the reason to be IN a religion is to convert people to think like you..otherwise why bother? I am quite aware of the Catholic Church's history of blood-shed but the muslims are the modern day equivelent of that. The question is will we let history repeat itself or not and how many people will die in the name of a religion? Personally, I am still hopeful that some muslim somehow, somewhere will take a stand...but I lose more hope each passing second...

Some quotes from the bible


"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
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Ten Thousand Murdered at God's Command
After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)
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"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

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Exterminate 7 Nations



You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)

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Kill Everyone in 7 Nations

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

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More Murdered Babies

Joshua conquered the entire country; the mountain regions, the Negeb, the foothills, and the mountain slopes, with all their kings. He left no survivors, but fulfilled the doom on all who lived there, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. Joshua conquered from Kadesh-barnea to Gaza, and all the land of Goshen to Gibeon. All these kings and their lands Joshua captured in a single campaign, for the LORD, the God of Israel, fought for Israel. Thereupon Joshua with all Israel returned to the camp at Gilgal. (Joshua 10:40-43 NAB)

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Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife..

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What do you have to say my friend? :wavey:

dementieva's fan
Feb 14th, 2006, 02:42 AM
hmmmm. lets also get a look at the bible:

Matthew
-- 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."

human sacrifice
"The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS (bible style)
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

the bible commands murder, slavery and rape here:
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery? the kind that thinks that raping a girl is a good way to get her to marry you and never be able to leave...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

if she wont marry you, she can always be stoned to death:
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death.

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS BIBLE STYLE PART TWO!!

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS CHRISTIAN STYLE PART THREE (now includes babies, children and good Samaritans.)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

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google can be used to quote more than one book to make it look a particular way.

which leads me back to my original point... its the same shit some Christians do today and have 100% done in the past. but you cant be an ignorant bastard and blame everyone for what some people do. and if you think the koran favors killing, take a good read at the bible and tell me with start face that it does so any less than the koran.

oops someone already posted the shit that I posted in the last post

Wigglytuff
Feb 14th, 2006, 02:51 AM
oops someone already posted the shit that I posted in the last post
no oops need it helps to know that some understands where i am coming from, plus you have many qoutes i missed.

Cat's Pajamas
Feb 14th, 2006, 03:20 AM
hmmmm. lets also get a look at the bible:

Matthew
-- 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."

human sacrifice
"The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)


DEATH TO THE INFIDELS (bible style)
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

the bible commands murder, slavery and rape here:
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery? the kind that thinks that raping a girl is a good way to get her to marry you and never be able to leave...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)

if she wont marry you, she can always be stoned to death:
(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death.

Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS BIBLE STYLE PART TWO!!

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

DEATH TO THE INFIDELS CHRISTIAN STYLE PART THREE (now includes babies, children and good Samaritans.)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

----------------
google can be used to quote more than one book to make it look a particular way.

which leads me back to my original point... its the same shit some Christians do today and have 100% done in the past. but you cant be an ignorant bastard and blame everyone for what some people do. and if you think the koran favors killing, take a good read at the bible and tell me with start face that it does so any less than the koran.

Nearly all your refrences are from the Old Testament. During that era was when God was having to repeatedly bring back his people to his ways. The Bible is intensly graphic at times but sometimes that's what it took. After the crucifixion of Jesus God could forgive us if we repented there was no more need for a sacrifice. If you read the New Testament (excluding Revalations)you will find it is optimistic and showing us how we need to be peaceful and spread the good news of the Lord. But I think the main and simple point is that 10 people didn't deserve to die over a couple of cartoons.

dementieva's fan
Feb 14th, 2006, 03:27 AM
Nearly all your refrences are from the Old Testament. During that era was when God was having to repeatedly bring back his people to his ways.

So god taught to kill, rape people to bring tem back to "his ways"?

The Bible is intensly graphic at times but sometimes that's what it took. After the crucifixion of Jesus God could forgive us if we repented there was no more need for a sacrifice.

REPENT FOR WHAT?? :confused: Because two morons ate a fucking apple when they were send to earth thousands of years ago and you are supposed to repent for that? :rolleyes:

Cat's Pajamas
Feb 14th, 2006, 03:32 AM
NO you are supposed to ask God for forgiveness when u sin and make mistakes, then you have something that is hurting you or effecting you, God is there to forgive and forget. That is repentance.

dementieva's fan
Feb 14th, 2006, 03:43 AM
NO you are supposed to ask God for forgiveness when u sin and make mistakes, then you have something that is hurting you or effecting you, God is there to forgive and forget. That is repentance.

So I could go out and kill a guy, feel sorry about it and be forgived by God, right? :confused:

Wigglytuff
Feb 14th, 2006, 04:27 AM
Nearly all your refrences are from the Old Testament. During that era was when God was having to repeatedly bring back his people to his ways. The Bible is intensly graphic at times but sometimes that's what it took. After the crucifixion of Jesus God could forgive us if we repented there was no more need for a sacrifice. If you read the New Testament (excluding Revalations)you will find it is optimistic and showing us how we need to be peaceful and spread the good news of the Lord. But I think the main and simple point is that 10 people didn't deserve to die over a couple of cartoons.
umm, so basicly, if i only look at the parts you want than god is not so bad? self serving, but my point is that its one cant talk about the koran being "full of evil" without holding the same standards across the board. to include the bible. now if you are going to pick and choose which parts you want to have examined this way, the same must also be applied to the koran.

p.s. any god that says its ok to rape women and children can kiss my ass i dont want his forgiveness i want his ass to apologize and resign so that another god who isnt so fucked up and take over the job.

Wigglytuff
Feb 14th, 2006, 04:30 AM
So I could go out and kill a guy, feel sorry about it and be forgived by God, right? :confused:

this has been my rant. as for as everyone admits the answer is YES, (but only if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, mean it. like meant it deep deep deep down inside. )

meyerpl
Feb 14th, 2006, 05:05 AM
This is generally an interesting, informative & thought-provoking thread. I wish it included more input from Muslims, it's helpful in terms of dispelling myths, I believe. I really appreciate the diverse opinions and points of view being shared here.

It baffles me that many ultra-religious people are so sensitive about their own religion yet so disrespectful toward others. There is no room for doubt in their minds and no perceived need to be respectful of other religions they "Know" to be wrong.

Religion is as religion does, in my opinion. When it comforts people during difficult times and does charitable deeds, I'm for it. When it causes war and the subjegation of women, I'm against it.

It's remarkable how the Bible and the Quran can both be quoted to rather effectively discredit both religions. Undoubtedly unfair, but interesting.

Martian Willow
Feb 14th, 2006, 09:49 AM
People who are quoting the bible in response to Selesfan70, see my post above please:

This is not analogous to christianity and the bible, because a christian, or a person-who-calls-themself-a-christian is not making any statements about the bible, or their beliefs with regard to the bible.

Thanks. :)

dementieva's fan
Feb 15th, 2006, 04:57 AM
It's remarkable how the Bible and the Quran can both be quoted to rather effectively discredit both religions. Undoubtedly unfair, but interesting.

All religeons teach the same shit :o

Wigglytuff
Feb 16th, 2006, 04:16 AM
People who are quoting the bible in response to Selesfan70, see my post above please:



Thanks. :)
thats some smelly bullshit. i dont know how you are able type that without falling over. :lol: :lol:

gentenaire
Feb 16th, 2006, 06:49 AM
Why were the reactions so strong? Because they were staged! Two groups benefit from this whole thing: the muslim extremists and the far right parties in Europe and the US. I'm sure that our far right party was rubbing its hands with glee, thinking "katjing! another ....votes extra!"
Ever wonder where all those people in the Gaza strip got those Danish flags from? I don't know about you, but I don't have flags from all countries in the world lying around. Someone left a whole bunch of flags there on purpose so that there'd be a 'spontaneous' protest with flag burning.
It was Danish imams who went on a PR tour with the cartoons (and one picture of a clown, which they thought was a cartoon of Mohammed with a pig's snout, it wasn't) because they wanted outrage, they wanted protests! Extremism has won. The devide is bigger than ever. The muslim extremists get to say, "see, how evil the West is?", the far right here gets to say, "see, how barbaric those muslims are?".

Lord Nelson
Feb 16th, 2006, 11:59 AM
Why were the reactions so strong? Because they were staged! Two groups benefit from this whole thing: the muslim extremists and the far right parties in Europe and the US. I'm sure that our far right party was rubbing its hands with glee, thinking "katjing! another ....votes extra!"
Ever wonder where all those people in the Gaza strip got those Danish flags from? I don't know about you, but I don't have flags from all countries in the world lying around. Someone left a whole bunch of flags there on purpose so that there'd be a 'spontaneous' protest with flag burning.
It was Danish imams who went on a PR tour with the cartoons (and one picture of a clown, which they thought was a cartoon of Mohammed with a pig's snout, it wasn't) because they wanted outrage, they wanted protests! Extremism has won. The devide is bigger than ever. The muslim extremists get to say, "see, how evil the West is?", the far right here gets to say, "see, how barbaric those muslims are?".
The Palestinians get far more aid then any other people. Palestinans get at least 1.1 billion dollars and have trade with ar ab groups. Some of them come from Europe and so it may be them who gave them the flags. As for the extremist European groups if they are indeed anti muslim then perhaps I will vote for them in the next elections unless the traditional right parties oes something against radical muslims in Europe.

ASV_FAN
Feb 16th, 2006, 01:38 PM
What annoys me is that Muslims are incapable of reacting in a controlled way, the vast majority simply fly off the handle and go on riotous rampages lasting for days. In this country, we had a disgusting individual who decided to march through the streets of London dressed as a suicide bomber - in my opinion this man should be deported to whichever country his ancestors came from because he is not an Englishman.

I work with a lovely young Muslim girl who never mentions religion and would you'd have to describe her as totally moderate. Yet I was horrified to learn that she believes Jews are the source of all evil in the world and that she believes like the Iranian president that Israel should be olbiterated.

The simple fact is that even moderate Muslims are radical in their views, and I don't want to live alongside people like that. I've always said that multi-culturalism is a stupid idea and recent events have proved me right. As far as I'm concerned, religions should live separately wherever possible because religious differences will continue to be the main cause of many conflicts to come.

hingis-seles
Feb 16th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Muslim here.

1) The cartoons. Very offensive. No excusing that. You'd have to be a practicing Muslim to understand that. We have a different value and moral system than those in other religions, especially when it comes to Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.).

2) Violent protests are a no-no. Peaceful protests needed to be conducted and those responsible for the cartoons were to be condemned. No Doubt. But resorting to violence is not the answer.

3) When Allah is All-Forgiving and Merciful, who are we, as Muslims, to resort to burning embassies and trying to harm other people? Why can't we try and have the same qualities and apply them to this situation?

4) Who is truly responsible for this gigantic mess? Some of the elements are in the Muslim society and some are in the Western society.

5) The Holocaust cartoons in the Iranian newspaper?! Disgusting and deplorable. After the tolerance Islam teaches towards the beliefs of others, to resort to this behavior is shocking and appalling. Besides, by stooping to the same level as the Danish publication (which published the original cartoons), they are no better and would be hypocritical to complain.

Extremism exists everywhere in the world today. It's not just limited to the Muslims, though. They're extremists all over the world. SelesFan70 is a perfect example of an extremist.

hingis-seles
Feb 16th, 2006, 01:45 PM
What annoys me is that Muslims are incapable of reacting in a controlled way, the vast majority simply fly off the handle and go on riotous rampages lasting for days. In this country, we had a disgusting individual who decided to march through the streets of London dressed as a suicide bomber - in my opinion this man should be deported to whichever country his ancestors came from because he is not an Englishman.

I work with a lovely young Muslim girl who never mentions religion and would you'd have to describe her as totally moderate. Yet I was horrified to learn that she believes Jews are the source of all evil in the world and that she believes like the Iranian president that Israel should be olbiterated.

The simple fact is that even moderate Muslims are radical in their views, and I don't want to live alongside people like that. I've always said that multi-culturalism is a stupid idea and recent events have proved me right. As far as I'm concerned, religions should live separately wherever possible because religious differences will continue to be the main cause of many conflicts to come.

*stereotype overload*

Cashif
Feb 17th, 2006, 04:51 PM
I ve seen enough thread to know how u guys feel abt a muslim..But lemme tell u i am a muslim n according to Koran we r not even supposed to hurt insect.okay..It s coz of media tat de muslims r being branded as terrorists..Media r always lookin 4 violent stuff..whenever they see one, it s spread immediately whreas 2days bak there was peaceful protest by UK muslims..It was not at all shown like de images 4m Afghan r Iraq, where only minority of muslims did de damage 2 bldngs..

As for muslim nations not condemning violence..it is not true, almost all de muslim nations ve strongly condemned violence n asked people to protest peacefully..

Many people ve argued tat wen fun s made of their religion, they dont care..It s coz they do not practice n luv their religion as much as we do..

Now coming to muslims being terrorists, it s coz of few fanatics like osama(By de way do u know tat he was trained by CIA) who s terrorising 4 personal gains,that de muslims r being called terrorist..U guys talk so much abt innocent people getting killed..But do u guys condemn Bush, whose war on Iraq has led to 100s of Iraqis getting killed everyday..Y not brand him as terrorist n call christianity as violent..U will not, coz u look at things n de way u want to..

I can give many more instances like these whereby innocent people ve been killed by groups but it s not considered as being related to religion(like IRA, Israel on Palestine, Naxals in India etc)..They r considered as freedom fight whereas wen a palestenian attacks Israeli, it s considered as Islamic Terrorism..

I am not against christianity r any other religion but i feel tat coz of few fanatics, Muslims r looked down by almost all de people..So plz dont generalize

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 05:51 PM
I did consider adding 'Jigglypuff need not apply' to end. Won't forget next time. :)

Wigglytuff
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:06 PM
I did consider adding 'Jigglypuff need not apply' to end. Won't forget next time. :)
yes, i dont believe illogical statements like "christians dont believe, follow or make statements about the bible". but than again what person who isnt completely stupid would. :shrug:

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:33 PM
This is not analogous to christianity and the bible, because a christian, or a person-who-calls-themself-a-christian is not making any statements about the bible, or their beliefs with regard to the bible.
lol. at first i did not want to reply to this, but you can't be serious, right? christians (those who really believe rather than just nominally belong to that religion) have been making statements about the bible and its contents from the very beginning. i recently read an article about homophobia and christianity and it was very specific about what parts in the bible were quoted to justify persecution of homosexuals and a few influential theologians were named (from distant past, to be sure, but then it's a very old problem) who insisted on interpeting them that way.

the bible is not taken as seriously as in the past, but the same goes for the entire religion of christianity. most societies where christianity is practiced are secular and taking the bible seriously invites ridicule, so i suppose religious christians are forced to be more humble than in the past.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Thats not the statement I made, dear.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:36 PM
lol. at first i did not want to reply to this, but you can't be serious, right? christians (those who really believe rather than just nominally belong to that religion) have been making statements about the bible and its contents from the very beginning. i recently read an article about homophobia and christianity and it was very specific about what parts in the bible were quoted to justify persecution of homosexuals and a few influential theologians were named (from distant past, to be sure, but then it's a very old problem) who insisted on interpeting them that way.

the bible is not taken as seriously as in the past, but the same goes for the entire religion of christianity. most societies where christianity is practiced are secular and taking the bible seriously invites ridicule, so i suppose religious christians are forced to be more humble than in the past.

To say 'I am a christian' is not to say 'I believe the bible to be the direct word of god'. Do you have a problem with this statement? :)

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 06:46 PM
To say 'I am a christian' is not to say 'I believe the bible to be the direct word of god'. Do you have a problem with this statement? :)
no. but i also know muslims who drink alcohol and eat pork even though they are not allowed to do so and they still call themselves muslims. obviously you can call yourself a muslim and not give a fuck about the koran just as much as you can call yourself a christian and not give a fuck about the bible. i don't see how is islam different in this regard, except that most societies where islam is practiced are less secular and accordingly religions are taken more seriously.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 07:08 PM
no. but i also know muslims who drink alcohol and eat pork even though they are not allowed to do so and they still call themselves muslims. obviously you can call yourself a muslim and not give a fuck about the koran just as much as you can call yourself a christian and not give a fuck about the bible. i don't see how is islam different in this regard, except that most societies where islam is practiced are less secular and accordingly religions are taken more seriously.

You can call yourself a vegetarian, but if you eat meat you aren't one. :lol: A muslim is a person who believes the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed). That is what a muslim is. If they don't believe that, they are not a muslim, and, moreover, are unlikely to protest about some cartoons that depict Mohammed, on the basis that depictions of Mohammed are proscribed by the koran.

This is also why I made a distinction between muslims and people-who-call-themselves-muslims, although I do believe people-who-call-themselves-muslims are implicitly supporting or perpetuating islam (which is the belief that the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed)). :)

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 07:22 PM
You can call yourself a vegetarian, but if you eat meat you aren't one. :lol: A muslim is a person who believes the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed). That is what a muslim is. If they don't believe that, they are not a muslim, and, moreover, are unlikely to protest about some cartoons that dipict Mohammed, on the basis that dipictions of Mohammed are proscribed by the koran.
i read several articles that say that koran does not prohibit depicting of mohammed, even though apparently most religious muslims do. furthermore, i don't think most muslims protest against these cartoons on the basis that they simply depict mohammed. it's about how he and thus all muslims are presented.


This is also why I made a distinction between muslims and people-who-call-themselves-muslims, although I do believe people-who-call-themselves-muslims are implicitly encouraging or supporting islam (which is the belief that the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed)). :)
according to your definition there are no muslims in the world, only "people who call themselves muslims", but i think you are a bit too strict about who is a muslim and who's not. there is no way that any person could live according to the koran or the bible or any such book. it's simply impossible.

but anyway, no offence, but i can't take your definition of "muslims" seriously, so discussing that is pretty pointless ;)

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Its not just my definition.

Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (listen (help·info)), "peaceful submission (to the will of God)") is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, the world's second-largest religion, and the fastest growing religion in the world. Followers of Islam are known as Muslims. Muslims believe that God revealed his divine word directly to mankind through many prophets and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

I think its a fairly common definition, mainly because its the correct one. The meaning of the word doesn't change simply because lots of people who aren't muslims call themselves muslims, any more than the meaning of the word vegetarian would change if lots of people who eat meat (or fish-and-chipocrites) started calling themselves vegetarians. You can't disconnect muslim from islam (which is the belief that the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed)) . :)

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 07:33 PM
according to your definition there are no muslims in the world, only "people who call themselves muslims", but i think you are a bit too strict about who is a muslim and who's not. there is no way that any person could live according to the koran or the bible or any such book. it's simply impossible.

I'm not saying anyone lives according to any book, merely that they are stating a belief about that book.

*JR*
Feb 17th, 2006, 07:48 PM
To say 'I am a christian' is not to say 'I believe the bible to be the direct word of god'. Do you have a problem with this statement? :)
I may not, but a huge # of Christian fundamentalists certainly would! :rolleyes:

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 08:10 PM
You can't disconnect muslim from islam (which is the belief that the koran is the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed)) . :)
but saying that the koran is the direct word from god is not any worse than saying that there is a god. what matters is how a religion is practiced.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 08:29 PM
I think it is, if the koran contains things that are objectionable. :confused:

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 08:41 PM
I think it is, if the koran contains things that are objectionable. :confused:
not if followers of islamic religion don't practice objectionable parts. koran is full of contradictions anyway, just like every other religious book.

i also gave you an example of people taking the bible seriously and doing "objectionable" things because of it. it's a part of every religion.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:23 PM
Even if they don't practice the objectionable parts, they still, by following the islamic religion, believe the objectionable parts to be the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed). That is the basis of my objection. :)

azdaja
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Even if they don't practice the objectionable parts, they still, by following the islamic religion, believe the objectionable parts to be the direct word of god (as ennunciated by the prophet Mohammed). That is the basis of my objection. :)
just as some christians justify their homophobia by quoting the bible. each way, from my point of view the way a religion is practiced is more important than what its holy books say. believers are usually very selective about what they really believe even if they won't admit it ;)

anyway, i don't really have anything else to say about this.

Martian Willow
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Its not the same! :)

*JR*
Feb 17th, 2006, 09:53 PM
The 3 major monothesistic religions in the world seem way off base. Which is understandable, as they were created when humans had no idea what those flickering lights in the night sky were, and saw the Earth as the center of the universe.

Now that we know its just a small part of one star's solar system in one galaxy among billions, we should all junk that outdated concept. (BTW, neither the Hindu for ancient Greek and Roman polytheisms had enough Gods to run the whole show either).

Deism (creating places like Earth and moving on) seems "more possible" than the major religions (past and present). As is "delegation", which religions like Catholicism seem to embrace thru the concept of angels. (Remember, sainthood requires 2 "miracles", though if enough ppl pray to someone for a "miracle cure", they can always find a few spontaneous ones).

I don't know the answers. Nor do (or can) atheists, as our science "doesn't do infinity". We don't know when time "began" or will "end". (What would come B4 or after?) We don't know the physical limits of space. (Yeah, self-folding like a ball of yarn, blah, so what's "outside" of that?)

There can be any number OR type of superior beings "out there". Maybe some take human (or even animal) form sometimes, who knows? Maybe some are full-fledged Gods, and other are "Deputy Gods". But to have killed eachother based on competing versions of the unknowable these many centuries is just plain nuts.
:shrug:

Erika_Angel
Feb 17th, 2006, 10:01 PM
I can only comment about Christianity because I'm not Muslim, but I think some people really need to check themselves at the door and realise they have no clue what a religion really is. The way some people are describing it makes it sound like it is some cult who just follows some book. Not true at all.

Yes the bible is very important but it is also very outdated. The quotes from page 2 of this thread are all from the old testament written by prophets. Most Christians tend to take alot of these writings like a grain of salt. The more important section of the bible for Christians is the New Testament which describes the life of Christ and his teachings. He was a just and fair man who never suggested killing, or burning villages down etc. Instead he preached equality and fairness for all even for the prostitute or the tax collecter who was cheating his clients out of money. He teached forgiveness, not punishment.

That being said the bible isn't what the majority of the Christian religion is about. It is about faith, like all religions are. Whether you like to believe it or not each person who is even somewhat religion has a connection to their God who can impower them and guide them through tough moments in life.

If you want to continously denounce Christianity by quoting the old testament then I suggest you have a go at Judaism first considering that is their holy text. Not to say the Judaism is incorrect but it just seems like hypocricy when you take something with is predominately Jewish and use it against Christians without even mentioning the Jews.

firehorse
Feb 17th, 2006, 11:19 PM
There is no right or wrong about religions...PERIOD!!!
Plus nobody of their religions has seen their leaders either....if you believe it...believe in it!!!
I wish Martians are visiting us..that will be interesting....

meyerpl
Feb 18th, 2006, 12:35 AM
Muslim here.

1) The cartoons. Very offensive. No excusing that. You'd have to be a practicing Muslim to understand that. We have a different value and moral system than those in other religions, especially when it comes to Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.).

2) Violent protests are a no-no. Peaceful protests needed to be conducted and those responsible for the cartoons were to be condemned. No Doubt. But resorting to violence is not the answer.

3) When Allah is All-Forgiving and Merciful, who are we, as Muslims, to resort to burning embassies and trying to harm other people? Why can't we try and have the same qualities and apply them to this situation?

4) Who is truly responsible for this gigantic mess? Some of the elements are in the Muslim society and some are in the Western society.

5) The Holocaust cartoons in the Iranian newspaper?! Disgusting and deplorable. After the tolerance Islam teaches towards the beliefs of others, to resort to this behavior is shocking and appalling. Besides, by stooping to the same level as the Danish publication (which published the original cartoons), they are no better and would be hypocritical to complain.

Extremism exists everywhere in the world today. It's not just limited to the Muslims, though. They're extremists all over the world. SelesFan70 is a perfect example of an extremist.

You make some good points.

If the teachings of Islam prohibit depicting Prophet Muhammad in pictures, practicing Muslims should refrain from doing so, but it's ridiculous to expect that non-Muslims follow the same rules. Cartoons such as those discussed on this thread may be in poor taste, but that's a judgment each individual must make. The world would be a nicer place if everyone showed consideration for others and sought not to offend. That said, people do not have a RIGHT not to be offended. If I choose to publish cartoons depicting Prophet Muhammad copulating with a donkey while watching child-porn and pounding a gin & tonic, that's my right in any society that respects basic civil rights. If you don't like it, don't buy the publication or it's sponsor's products. Write an angry letter to the publisher, walk around carrying a sign if it trips your trigger, but you are NOT justified in breaking the law or committing acts of violence.

*JR*
Feb 18th, 2006, 12:38 AM
There is no right or wrong about religions...PERIOD!!
......
I wish Martians are visiting us..that will be interesting....
There's a "right or wrong", its just that our species will probably never know it. Which somewhat relates to your other point: it's QUITE possible that some aliens developed advanced science earlier than we did (perhaps by a "mere" million years or so). Including suspended animation capability. Or that they simply live far longer. And have much faster spacecraft.

They could have thus toured the galaxy as researchers. Except that some might have had the inclination to "impress the locals" by doing things like parting the Red Sea, and turning water into wine (having taken on human form). Perhaps the longterm reaction of humankind was all part of the experiment.

I'm not saying that any of this happened. Merely that its as credible a possibility as what religions have taught for the last 10,000 years or so. (BTW, atheism pretends this isn't a meaningful topic, as it has no demonstrable answers re. time and space).

And if a deity with great powers lands in NYC's Central Park this weekend, it also might be a space traveler doing research (or just having some fun @ our expense). After all, a primitive race that witnessed our technology would consider us Gods, too.

vogus
Feb 18th, 2006, 04:44 AM
if the Muslims don't like what is in our newspapers then they can protest to the newspapers, but not to our governments. If they then behave in a way that is not civil and commit criminal acts in Western countries, Muslim extremists are going to be dealt with as severely as necessary. Period.

Wigglytuff
Feb 18th, 2006, 05:09 AM
You can call yourself a vegetarian, but if you eat meat you aren't one.
see this is why YOUR point makes no sense. "christians" who dont believe in the bible or that its the word of god ARENT christians. but if you dont believe in the bible, that its the word of god and follow the teachings of christ you arent one (psst it says so in the bible :lol: ). :wavey:

you just call yourself that... which you are free to do but it doesnt make you one, it NEVER has and it NEVER will.

SelesFan70
Feb 18th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Thanks for quoting the Bible to me...it felt like I was at home :rolleyes: This thread is about islam or mulims on WTAWorld...but whatever. I'm not gonna disagree and say the bible isn't a viloent book, and I will gladly quote the bible to show it's a violent religion if Chrisitians were the ones burning and pillaging over a cartoon... :rolleyes:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/death002.jpg http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/nyprotest002.jpg

Erika_Angel
Feb 18th, 2006, 05:31 AM
see this is why YOUR point makes no sense. "christians" who dont believe in the bible or that its the word of god ARENT christians. but if you dont believe in the bible, that its the word of god and follow the teachings of christ you arent one (psst it says so in the bible :lol: ). :wavey:

you just call yourself that... which you are free to do but it doesnt make you one, it NEVER has and it NEVER will.

That just shows you have no idea what a religion is and never will.
Christianity isn't about following a book of laws. It isn't about doing one thing or another. It is about your connection with God. You can be a devout Christian and read your bible every night and go to church every day but it doesn't make you any more of a Christian than someone who has the same amount of faith but doesn't do those things.

Religion is a personal thing. It cannot be defined into a book. It cannot be defined into something as simple as that because it goes beyond just words in a book. It is about a connection that only those who have it can understand it. All people who are religious can vouch for that. And it is something that alot of people just can't seem to comprehend.

meyerpl
Feb 18th, 2006, 02:47 PM
That just shows you have no idea what a religion is and never will.
Christianity isn't about following a book of laws. It isn't about doing one thing or another. It is about your connection with God. You can be a devout Christian and read your bible every night and go to church every day but it doesn't make you any more of a Christian than someone who has the same amount of faith but doesn't do those things.

Religion is a personal thing. It cannot be defined into a book. It cannot be defined into something as simple as that because it goes beyond just words in a book. It is about a connection that only those who have it can understand it. All people who are religious can vouch for that. And it is something that alot of people just can't seem to comprehend.
In my view, the terms religion and faith are often confused with each other. Faith is as you described religion; all about your connection to God or whatever higher power in which you happen to believe. Faith has no rules. Religion institutionalizes faith and establishes, among other things, rules.

When you join a particular religion you are expected to follow the rules. Here's where I have a problem, and I'd really appreciate anyone who can shed some light on it for me: Where do any Muslim people get off expecting non-Muslims to follow the rules of Islam?? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Is it reasonable to expect that non-Muslims will show respect for the symbols of your religion? Maybe; most people will show respect, but not all, either out of contempt or ignorance. But when somebody doesn't, let it go for crying out loud. Robert Maplethorp depicted stuff like Jesus being submerged in urine and the Virgin Mary smeared in feces in his art. Some Christian people stayed away from his exhibits, some protested, but nobody burned down any buildings or started killing people.

You can't tell me these are just a few nut-cases either. I've seen the pictures. I've read the news. The rioting is being done by mobs of people in locations throughout the world. Over a few cartoons!!??!! These screwballs may not represent mainstream Muslims, but they seem to represent a rather significant number within their religion. Are they just out of control maniacs or could they calmly sit down and rationally complete the following sentence: The mayhem and violent acts being carried out by these mobs is justified because _____________.

*JR*
Feb 18th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Religion is a personal thing. It cannot be defined into a book. It cannot be defined into something as simple as that because it goes beyond just words in a book. It is about a connection that only those who have it can understand it. All people who are religious can vouch for that. And it is something that alot of people just can't seem to comprehend.
This is a fancy way of saying: "Some things need 2B believed 2B seen". A cute play on words, but rather meaningless as proof of anything, in many subject areas (not just religion). Its just that you're "stuck" with the fact that the Bible was written B4 many developments that cast things in a different light.

The authors (of both the Old and New Testaments) hadn't discovered (or made sense of, if anyone had) dinosaur bones, and thus didn't have to include these inescapably large creatures in "A History of the World Since Adam & Eve".

They thought the Earth was the center of existence (the words "sunrise" and "sunset" derive from that way of seeing things) so it seemed logical to them that THE ONE GOD out there was preoccupied with what we now know is a very small part of one galaxy among many billions.

In the final analysis Erika, you (along with Abby, Nash, JustineTime, etc.) are left saying that "its true because it says it is", which is circular reasoning. (So are the atheists, who have no more proof of the big "space and time" questions than you folks do).

Of course in reality, the leading "religion" in the West is "Nominalism". The countless ppl who don't really believe in any religion's tenets, but say "I'm a (whatever)" because thats what they were told from an early age. Something clergy are perfectly willing to accept for 3 reasons:

3) These ppl's kids or grandchildren may be more religious.
2) The money derived from weddings, funerals, communions, and other rituals the clergy officiate.
1) The political influence derived from being able to say "... as I represent X million people in Y place..." although their views on the issues may not reflect said religios leader's.

Maryamator
Feb 18th, 2006, 03:22 PM
maybe coz muslims really respect their profits and...stuff

firehorse
Feb 18th, 2006, 03:38 PM
maybe coz muslims really respect their profits and...stuff

You mean " Prophet"

bis2806
Feb 18th, 2006, 04:45 PM
I've heard from my maid (who is muslim) that they are supposed to convert everyone into being muslim, or else they should die or be killed.

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2006, 05:17 PM
see this is why YOUR point makes no sense. "christians" who dont believe in the bible or that its the word of god ARENT christians. but if you dont believe in the bible, that its the word of god and follow the teachings of christ you arent one (psst it says so in the bible :lol: ). :wavey:

you just call yourself that... which you are free to do but it doesnt make you one, it NEVER has and it NEVER will.

Bollocks. :)

azdaja
Feb 18th, 2006, 06:10 PM
So are the atheists, who have no more proof of the big "space and time" questions than you folks do
what questions? i actually agree with erika's definition of "religion" as a faith and for many people even organised religion is primarily a private matter. atheism is simply lack of faith.

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Atheism is believing there is no god. Also, there is a difference between having 'faith' and having 'a faith'. It depends what you have faith in. A religion is having faith in a set of rules.

azdaja
Feb 18th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Atheism is believing there is no god. Also, there is a difference between having 'faith' and having 'a faith'. It depends what you have faith in. A religion is having faith in a set of rules.
atheism as i understand it is lack of belief rather than "belief that there is no god".

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2006, 07:05 PM
Thats agnostic.

The prefix a- means without or no. The is god. Hence atheism is without god. Gnost is knowledge, hence agnostic is without knowledge, ie I don't know. :)

*JR*
Feb 18th, 2006, 07:30 PM
what questions?
When did time begin? (ANY answer invites the question: what was B4 that). When will it end? (Any answer inviting the unanswerable: and then what). How big is the universe? (Or the universes combined, if you say there's more than one). Any answer leading to the obvious followup: so what's located beyond that?

These are "existential" questions, not scientific ones. Meaning that the most powerful telescopes, etc. that can be conceived of still couldn't answer them. As an agnostic, I'm amazed @ how ppl of faith and atheists have for perhaps centuries thrown the mirror images of these @ eachother, as if the questions didn't also apply to "their side".

Like an atheist asking rhetorically: "so then who created God", while the religionist asks who (if not God) created the universe and all that's in it. I have no answers to these things, but just wish that ppl would stop justifying trying to hurt others who don't share their beliefs (physically, economically, whatever) especially as none of them are provable anyhow.

Wigglytuff
Feb 18th, 2006, 07:57 PM
That just shows you have no idea what a religion is and never will.
Christianity isn't about following a book of laws. It isn't about doing one thing or another. It is about your connection with God. You can be a devout Christian and read your bible every night and go to church every day but it doesn't make you any more of a Christian than someone who has the same amount of faith but doesn't do those things.

Religion is a personal thing. It cannot be defined into a book. It cannot be defined into something as simple as that because it goes beyond just words in a book. It is about a connection that only those who have it can understand it. All people who are religious can vouch for that. And it is something that alot of people just can't seem to comprehend.
faith does NOT equal religion it NEVER has and it NEVER will. they are things that interact with one another, like birds and flowers. but they are NOT equivalent or interchangable

re·li·gion Audio pronunciation of "religion" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

1. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader or source.

faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.

if you are a religious christian you follow the bible and the teachings of christ. you can have all the faith you want but without following the teachings you aint nothing but a poser and a faker (as per the bible and its teachings, which if you are a poser and a faker dont matter but hey whatever right this is a world full of fakers and posers.)

Wigglytuff
Feb 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM
Bollocks. :)
yeah right, like what kind of retarded christian actually reads the bible and follows its teachings. :smash: god likes way better when you ignore his words and do whatever you want, thats how you make god happy. :lol: :tape: :lol: :tape: :devil:

meyerpl
Feb 18th, 2006, 08:11 PM
You can belong to a religion and have no faith whatsoever. Again, religion is an institution while faith is personal.

meyerpl
Feb 18th, 2006, 08:16 PM
I've heard from my maid (who is muslim) that they are supposed to convert everyone into being muslim, or else they should die or be killed.
Well, I'd say the rioters are doing a helluva a job then. I'm sure non-Muslim people all over the world are watching the news and saying "That looks like something I'd like to get myself and my family involved with. Those people really look like they're being directed by the hand of God. Where do I sign-up?"

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2006, 08:24 PM
yeah right, like what kind of retarded christian actually reads the bible and follows its teachings. :smash: god likes way better when you ignore his words and do whatever you want, thats how you make god happy. :lol: :tape: :lol: :tape: :devil:

You seem to have some kind of problem with words and their meanings and significance. That is why you are still having an argument that finished on the last page. Again.

Wigglytuff
Feb 18th, 2006, 09:03 PM
You seem to have some kind of problem with words and their meanings and significance. That is why you are still having an argument that finished on the last page. Again.
actually, retard, there are a number of pages settings on wtaworld, and everyones settings are different, my setting there are only 2 pages in this thread. but you are not a fan of facts and truths (even ones you claim to believe).

Wigglytuff
Feb 18th, 2006, 09:11 PM
You can belong to a religion and have no faith whatsoever. Again, religion is an institution while faith is personal.
i dont argue that they are the same, i argue that they are not. i think the dictionary and common sense would agree with you.

i disagree with other posters who are saying you can be part of a religion and not follow or acknowledge it teachings just because (that is to be part of an institution and outside of it at the same time). at that point one has clearly stepped outside of that religion (institution) and gone elsewhere. its not really complicated. and i think most people understand that.

can you be part on the institution while having some personal faiths, sure. but one can NOT be outside of the institution and inside it at the same time. which is what some people are trying to claim. nor can one calm what religion is NOT an institution which is plainly is.

Martian Willow
Feb 18th, 2006, 09:58 PM
actually, retard, there are a number of pages settings on wtaworld, and everyones settings are different, my setting there are only 2 pages in this thread. but you are not a fan of facts and truths (even ones you claim to believe).

Thank you for raising this very important and relevant point. I will now have to reconsider my entire position. :)

azdaja
Feb 19th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Thats agnostic.

The prefix a- means without or no. The is god. Hence atheism is without god. Gnost is knowledge, hence agnostic is without knowledge, ie I don't know. :)
i disagree. proving the negative is never an easy task and the universe is a bit too big for a human to know everything about it. the difference between a believer and a non-believer (atheist) is that a believer believes that there is a god, while an atheist relies on his/her reason and senses to explore the universe. an atheist does not believe there is no god, he/she simply has no reason to assume there is one. if there is something like god we want to see a proof for it, but then we won't believe, we will know.

azdaja
Feb 19th, 2006, 04:12 PM
When did time begin? (ANY answer invites the question: what was B4 that). When will it end? (Any answer inviting the unanswerable: and then what). How big is the universe? (Or the universes combined, if you say there's more than one). Any answer leading to the obvious followup: so what's located beyond that?
is the old-fashioned "i don't know" not a good answer? :shrug:

*JR*
Feb 19th, 2006, 04:36 PM
is the old-fashioned "i don't know" not a good answer? :shrug:
Not only is it a good answer, but IMO the only one not based on things that are now (and may still be in 100,000 years) unprovable. I just explained why other answers are all based on preconceptions.

Martian Willow
Feb 19th, 2006, 05:22 PM
i disagree. proving the negative is never an easy task and the universe is a bit too big for a human to know everything about it. the difference between a believer and a non-believer (atheist) is that a believer believes that there is a god, while an atheist relies on his/her reason and senses to explore the universe. an atheist does not believe there is no god, he/she simply has no reason to assume there is one. if there is something like god we want to see a proof for it, but then we won't believe, we will know.

Richard Dawkins.

dementieva's fan
Feb 20th, 2006, 01:59 AM
Richard Dawkins.

Why don't you send BNP your resume? :wavey:

pav
Feb 21st, 2006, 04:28 AM
I know there is no god, it is just ridiculous,it is all my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend,should be grown out of before school age :rolleyes: first time i've ever had to use that smiley