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DelMonte
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:29 PM
no article yet....

has anyone heard more about this?

GoDominique
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Buh-bye.

Farina Elia Fan
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:33 PM
:eek:

vogus
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:33 PM
guess she wasn't able to "clear her name" (pet phrase of tards like pierce0415 :lol: )

bgbgbg
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:37 PM
http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/pressrelease.asp?id=16150

GertAlert
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:39 PM
Karatantcheva handed two-year ban

Sesil Karatantcheva has been banned for two years after being found guilty of using performance-enhancing drugs.

The 16-year-old Bulgarian tested positive for the steroid nandrolone at the 2005 French Open and out of competition in Tokyo last July.

An independent tribunal rejected her explanation that she had been pregnant when the test was performed.

The ruling means Karatantcheva loses the £76,000 prize money and ranking points she earned at Roland Garros.

She will also forfeit all world ranking points and prize money from all competitions subsequent to the Paris Grand Slam. The 16-year-old rose to prominence after knocking out Venus Williams in the third round of this year's French Open. Karatantcheva has three weeks to appeal to the International Tennis Federation against her ban.

(source: bbcnews)

foreva lindsay
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:41 PM
The ruling means Karatantcheva loses the £76,000 prize money and ranking points she earned at Roland Garros.

stupid girl, look at how much money she's going to lose!!! :rolleyes:

Cariaoke
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:41 PM
well, damn. :eek:

ClaudiaZ-S
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Now she's a lier ! :devil:

Meesh
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:42 PM
Here is the link to the above article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/4545548.stm

Helen Lawson
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:43 PM
I don't get why they don't take her Roland Garros money, too, that's where she was on drugs!

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:43 PM
:eek:
2 yr ban........

GertAlert
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:44 PM
I think it's just shocking!!

She's just 16, someone in her environment must (also) be responsible for this!!! :(

Meesh
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:44 PM
http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/pressrelease.asp?id=16150

:eek::eek:

So it was two different incidents

ITF Press Release Decision in the case of Sesil Karatantcheva London, ENGLAND, 11 Jan 2006 - The International Tennis Federation announced today that an independent Anti-Doping Tribunal convened under the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme has found that Sesil Karatantcheva has committed a Doping Offence under the Programme.

The independent Anti-Doping Tribunal has ruled that Ms. Karatantcheva, a 16-year-old Bulgarian, has committed a Doping Offence under Article C.1 of the Programme (presence of a prohibited substance in a sample) in that a sample that she provided on 31 May 2005 at Roland Garros, and another conducted out of competition in Tokyo on 5 July 2005, tested positive for a steroid (nandrolone), a substance prohibited in competition under the WADA Code and the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme.

The independent Tribunal, consisting of Mr. Tim Kerr QC, Dr. Anik Sax and Professor Vivian James, heard the matter on 14-15 December 2005 in London. The Tribunal determined that a Prohibited Substance (nandrolone) had been present in a concentration above the reporting threshold in both the May and July samples. The Tribunal rejected the player’s defences but determined that the two offences would be treated as one single first offence for sanctioning purposes. The Tribunal therefore confirmed commission of a Doping Offence under Article C.1 of the Programme and automatically disqualified Ms. Karatantcheva’s results at Roland Garros, requiring forfeiture of entry ranking points and prize money (€110,370), as well as entry ranking points and prize money (US$128,897) from all competitions subsequent to 2005 Roland Garros. The Tribunal declares that the player shall be ineligible for a period of two years commencing 1 January 2006.

The Tribunal’s written decision with reasons will be available shortly as a PDF file below.

Any party wishing to appeal the decision will have three weeks to do so from receipt of the written decision.

The Tennis Anti-Doping Programme is a comprehensive and internationally recognised drug-testing programme that applies to all players competing at tournaments sanctioned by the ITF, ATP and WTA Tour. The ITF tests at Grand Slams (men and women), Davis Cup and Fed Cup, ITF Men’s and Women’s Circuit, Junior and Wheelchair Tennis Events, and from 2006, manages the testing at all ATP-sanctioned events. The WTA Tour manages testing at WTA Tour events. Players are tested for substances prohibited by the World Anti-Doping Agency. Charges of breach of the Programme are heard by an independent Anti-Doping Tribunal.

vogus
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:45 PM
Karatancheva is for sure not the only one though. It's no coincidence that she got caught at a Slam, where the WTA is not in charge of the testing. You will never hear about a positive test at a regular WTA event, because the WTA can do whatever it wants with the test results. It's just an invitation to corruption the way they have it set up.

GertAlert
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:45 PM
I don't get why they don't take her Roland Garros money, too, that's where she was on drugs!
Eh.. :confused: they do, don't they? It says so in the article.

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:46 PM
I don't get why they don't take her Roland Garros money, too, that's where she was on drugs!

they have !!!!

"The ruling means Karatantcheva loses the £76,000 prize money and ranking points she earned at Roland Garros."

Meesh
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:47 PM
Karatancheva is for sure not the only one though. It's no coincidence that she got caught at a Slam, where the WTA is not in charge of the testing. You will never hear about a positive test at a regular WTA event, because the WTA can do whatever it wants with the test results. It's just an invitation to corruption the way they have it set up.

but she tested positive in Tokyo (july) as well as May (French Open)

vogus
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:48 PM
what was she doing in Tokyo on July 5th? That's a strange location for a tennis player with no tournies anywhere near Asia at that time. Very odd.

GoDominique
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:50 PM
what was she doing in Tokyo on July 5th? That's a strange location for a tennis player with no tournies anywhere near Asia at that time. Very odd.
Maybe she got her abortion there.

Louis Cyphre
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:51 PM
The Tribunal declares that the player shall be ineligible for a period of two years commencing 1 January 2006.


2 years :eek: Why only 2? Ban her till the rest of her life. :fiery:

@The Tribunal ---> http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/boese/g015.gif

vutt
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:51 PM
so L'Équipe :worship:

kammgretel
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:52 PM
she will come back and under 20 years old, will win Grand Slams , take my words. !! :D

vutt
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:53 PM
she will come back and under 20 years old, will win Grand Slams , take my words. !! :D

maybe, but she wil wear for the rest of her life label "the one who tried to cheat" :(

SAEKeithSerena
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:55 PM
dumbbbbb ass broke asssss girl. see you in 2 years sesil!

sweetiepiedoll
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Does anyone know who is Sesil's boyfriend? I just wanted to know who got her pregnant and why was she playing tennis in her condition. I find it amazing that she was able to beat Venus in a 3-setter at the RG carrying an infant inside of her. Did she played Wimbledon afterwards because I don't recall seeing Sesil playing.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:58 PM
2 years :eek: Why only 2? Ban her till the rest of her life. :fiery:

@The Tribunal ---> http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/boese/g015.gif
Two years is the maximum suspension for a first offense, just like the Olympics. If she tests positive again, she could be banned for life.

DelMonte
Jan 11th, 2006, 03:59 PM
What is this abortion/baby business that everyone is talking about?

Spunky83
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:02 PM
oh...well, well

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:03 PM
What is this abortion/baby business that everyone is talking about?

ask Sesil
she said she was pregnant :o

DanWoody
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Two years ban is too much. She is still a junior, and maybe didn't even know, what the effect was of the substances she took.

Hoytie
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Maybe Damir Dokic was the father? Well, with a two-year ban, she now actually has the time to have a child.

TheBoiledEgg
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:04 PM
good thing they did announced it too before qualies start

now Yuliana Fedak wont have to play them.

volta
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:05 PM
:eek: so its true after all :eek:

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:05 PM
Karatantcheva handed two-year ban

Sesil Karatantcheva has been banned for two years after being found guilty of using performance-enhancing drugs.

The 16-year-old Bulgarian tested positive for the steroid nandrolone at the 2005 French Open and out of competition in Tokyo last July.

An independent tribunal rejected her explanation that she had been pregnant when the test was performed.

The ruling means Karatantcheva loses the £76,000 prize money and ranking points she earned at Roland Garros.

She will also forfeit all world ranking points and prize money from all competitions subsequent to the Paris Grand Slam. The 16-year-old rose to prominence after knocking out Venus Williams in the third round of this year's French Open. Karatantcheva has three weeks to appeal to the International Tennis Federation against her ban.

(source: bbcnews)


24 months !?!!?

She have 15yr only when play at Paris... 15yr old child (no matter how she looks at photos) dont have full responsibility for all they dealing. Better way is "whole life suspension" for all her coaches/doctors/agents...etc. Somebody persuade (or enforce) her, no doubt.

DelMonte
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:06 PM
ask Sesil
she said she was pregnant :o

Oh dear.

Was that supposed to explain the presence of certain substances in her test samples or something? Wtf?

timafi
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:06 PM
damn kid what did u have to use those king of garbage? :confused: :confused:

Helen Lawson
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:07 PM
Does anyone know who is Sesil's boyfriend? I just wanted to know who got her pregnant and why was she playing tennis in her condition. I find it amazing that she was able to beat Venus in a 3-setter at the RG carrying an infant inside of her. Did she played Wimbledon afterwards because I don't recall seeing Sesil playing.

She edged past a British wildcard in the first round, but fell victim to Big Masha in R2.

GertAlert
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:07 PM
24 months !?!!?

She have 15yr only when play at Paris... 15yr old child (no matter how she looks at photos) dont have full responsibility for all they dealing. Better way is "whole life suspension" for all her coaches/doctors/agents...etc. Somebody persuade (or enforce) her, no doubt.
I agree!! Who IS her coach btw?

Doc
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Does anyone know who is Sesil's boyfriend? I just wanted to know who got her pregnant and why was she playing tennis in her condition. I find it amazing that she was able to beat Venus in a 3-setter at the RG carrying an infant inside of her. Did she played Wimbledon afterwards because I don't recall seeing Sesil playing.

Sesil certainly played Wimbledon, where she lost love and one to Maria.

The pregnancy thing seems a rather strange excuse for having artificial steroids in your body. So I'm inclined to concur that Sesil was guilty and got caught. Especially with 2 separate tests proving positive.

There are probably others who have done it and not got caught. (Or had an excuse that was a bit stronger). A number of players have put on suspicious amounts of muscle very quickly. It's the least sophisticated "users" who get caught the easiest. So the book has been thrown at Sesil in order to discourage others.

Sorry for Sesil - but drugs need to be kept a long way from Sport.

jonny84
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Well its been clear up.

I hope this thread doesn't turn nasty. What is done is done. Best to leave it alone.

Pierce4ever
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Sesil :smash:

Raj
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:09 PM
What is this abortion/baby business that everyone is talking about?

When all this first came out it was stated Sesil's defence was that she was pregnant and that was why this substance was in her body (Pregnant women apparantly have this in their body)

Doc
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:10 PM
24 months !?!!?

She have 15yr only when play at Paris... 15yr old child (no matter how she looks at photos) dont have full responsibility for all they dealing. Better way is "whole life suspension" for all her coaches/doctors/agents...etc. Somebody persuade (or enforce) her, no doubt.

Yes. But they have to prove which persons were responsible.

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Karatancheva is for sure not the only one though. It's no coincidence that she got caught at a Slam, where the WTA is not in charge of the testing. You will never hear about a positive test at a regular WTA event, because the WTA can do whatever it wants with the test results. It's just an invitation to corruption the way they have it set up.

You're like a fucking stuck record. :yawn:

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Yes. But they have to prove which persons were responsible.

But i here dont see nowhere "investigation" - only "judgment".

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:15 PM
I'm curious to know whose idea it was, who supplied them and how much Sesil knew about it, but I don't know what I'd consider a reliable source for that.

Drake1980
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:16 PM
OMG, this is horrible

kammgretel
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:18 PM
I care because I like her, do you? she is suffering for sure by this case! The bad critics are vain to change the result, maybe she took that drug for accident! The pregnancy is a pure excuse!

Freakan
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Some of you are just too harsh. I don't believe that was her idea (drugs and this whole story about being pregnant), maybe she even didn't know that se was on doping. She was 15 during then and many people claim that she is pretty immature so it is probably not so hard to manipulate her. If she comes back (and I'm not so sure about that as she said that she had been thinking about retirement before this 'scandal'), she probably won't be coached by her father anymore (as he is probably the reason of her problems) and will be much more independent. At least I hope so, because she has incredible talent and would probably be in Top10 (if not better) by the end of the next season. It'll be hard for her to start from the beginning once more. But I believe in her :yeah:

Paule22
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:29 PM
I agree!! Who IS her coach btw?

_Surprisingly it's not Rafael Font de Mora.

Infiniti2001
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Oh Dear!! Her handlers should be punished :eek:

vogus
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:34 PM
You're like a fucking stuck record.


and i'll continue to be until the WTA and Larry Scott hand over control of the dope testing to an independent body.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:36 PM
Here's a pretty good article I found on nandrolone:
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/nandrolone/nandj.htm

If Sesil really was pregnant, she would have had a leg to stand on during her hearing.

tenn_ace
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:36 PM
she was still dumb to go public with her pregnancy IMO

!<blocparty>!
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:38 PM
:sad:

incognito
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:39 PM
If she's old enough to play on the WTA tour, then she is old enough to take the full consequences of her actions as everyone else playing on the WTA tour would have to. She is in fact lucky they didn't treat it as two separate offences...

As for "not knowing" what she took, we are talking about a professional sportswoman who knows a lot more about training and nutrition (including doping) than some random kid her age. I'm sure she knew all about the benefits and the risks involved and decided to take the chance. Even if it was initially someone elses idea, she was the one that took it and that is all that matters to the WTA...

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:39 PM
and i'll continue to be until the WTA and Larry Scott hand over control of the dope testing to an independent body.
Since you're so sure that other players are using, why don't you contact the ITF and present your irrefutable evidence to them instead of complaining about it here?

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:40 PM
she was still dumb to go public with her pregnancy IMO

She didn't.

tenn_ace
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:41 PM
She didn't.


then how do we know?

TonyP
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:42 PM
I think this is a rather harsh penality. Make no mistake, she should under go a ban, but I think six months would have been plenty, unless this was a second offense. Two years would seem to me to effectively terminate her career and that is a shame.

Meteor Shower
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:44 PM
She was not a five years old, she was fifteen. She knew the rules and yet she broke them. There is no way she didn't know she had an unfair advantage over other players and despite she knew that she kept playing. That being said, I hope she will comeback successfuly and clean.

I can't wait to see how the WTA will react. I always wondered if they really back-up cheating players and hide positive test.

jrm
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:44 PM
What a good news!!!

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:46 PM
She have 15yr only when play at Paris... 15yr old child (no matter how she looks at photos) dont have full responsibility for all they dealing. Better way is "whole life suspension" for all her coaches/doctors/agents...etc. Somebody persuade (or enforce) her, no doubt.Plenty of fifteen year olds decide to do drugs on their own. There's no reason to believe force or persuasion was applied. It may make you more comfortable believing it, of course.

houseoflords
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:47 PM
Both these positive tests happened when Sesil was 15 years old. 15 year olds don't have access to steroids. So someone in her camp had to provide them. Those people should be arrested

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:49 PM
then how do we know?

Well, how do you know?

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Plenty of fifteen year olds decide to do drugs on their own. There's no reason to believe force or persuasion was applied. It may make you more comfortable believing it, of course.

So 15 year olds are always entirely responsible for their actions? :awww:

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Both these positive tests happened when Sesil was 15 years old. 15 year olds don't have access to steroids.They do in the United States. In fact, the problem is spreading from athletes to kids who just use them chasing a hot body.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:53 PM
So 15 year olds are always entirely responsible for their actions? :awww:I assure you, if my parents had caught me using drugs at fifteen, they would have treated me as ENTIRELY responsible for my actions.

Should her source be prosecuted? IF the source did something illegal. In some countries, steroids are legal. If it's a coach, they should be thrown out of the sport. For THEIR actions. Not Sesil's.

Spunky83
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Unknowingly or not - she had that substance in her body and that´s it. She had been tested positive twice (!) which is more than weird. It´s unfortunate that it happened to a player who was on the rise. I am sure she would have played as well without the drugs too. Nontheless the ban is ok.

tenn_ace
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:55 PM
Well, how do you know?


well that WAS published, but of course, you will blame everyone around (newspaper, journalists, officials) for releasing this information...

PS. you are either have a selective reading or delusional. go to the page 1 of this thread and read an article. :rolleyes:

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:56 PM
If she's old enough to play on the WTA tour, then she is old enough to take the full consequences of her actions as everyone else playing on the WTA tour would have to. She is in fact lucky they didn't treat it as two separate offences...

As for "not knowing" what she took, we are talking about a professional sportswoman who knows a lot more about training and nutrition (including doping) than some random kid her age. I'm sure she knew all about the benefits and the risks involved and decided to take the chance. Even if it was initially someone elses idea, she was the one that took it and that is all that matters to the WTA...

You're making a lot of assumptions here.

For starters, yes she is a professional, but at 15 at the time of the offense, is hardly what I'd call a "sportswoman". And how do you know that she weighed the risks and benefits and then not only obtained a steroid that has been banned in professional sports for decades now, but knowlingly took it? Nandrolone can be administered orally and it's quite possible that someone in her camp provided it to her and she may have believed she was taking a supplement. I would look no further than her ex-olympic athlete father...

Of course, we have no way of knowing for sure whether she took nandrolone knowlingly or not, but I think the 2 year ban for a 15 year old is a little harsh...

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Both these positive tests happened when Sesil was 15 years old. 15 year olds don't have access to steroids. So someone in her camp had to provide them. Those people should be arrested
The Congressional hearings last May featured testimony from parents whose children used steroids. Kids can get steroids just as easily as they can get other illicit drugs.

TonyP
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:00 PM
I agree that any coach who had any part in this offense should be banned FOR LIFE from coaching a WTA player. In fact, any person involved in supplying drugs to a WTA player should be banned for life from even stepping foot on the grounds of a tennis venue involved in a IFT or WTA event.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:02 PM
So 15 year olds are always entirely responsible for their actions? :awww:
In this particular case, yes. The Anti-Doping Program clearly states that an athlete is responsible for what he or she puts into his or her body. If Sesil could prove that she inadvertently took the dope, she should have presented supporting evidence to the tribunal.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:03 PM
TonyP - Do you really think this effectively ends her career?

Nicjac
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I hoped for seven months ...

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:04 PM
well that WAS published, but of course, you will blame everyone around (newspaper, journalists, officials) for releasing this information...

PS. you are either have a selective reading or delusional. go to the page 1 of this thread and read an article. :rolleyes:

Oh, I'm delusional, you're all narrow-minded and judgemental. Everyones a winner. :)

Martian Willow
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:05 PM
In this particular case, yes. The Anti-Doping Program clearly states that an athlete is responsible for what he or she puts into his or her body. If Sesil could prove that she inadvertently took the dope, she should have presented supporting evidence to the tribunal.

Would that include a penis, or alcohol?

matthias
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:07 PM
is there any statement from the ITF or WTA?

Spunky83
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:12 PM
is there any statement from the ITF or WTA?

14th post in this thread, there´s a pre-press release, Matze ("appropriate" nickname?)

tenn_ace
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Oh, I'm delusional, you're all narrow-minded and judgemental. Everyones a winner. :)


giving up so quickly. I'm expected more from you.

ps. nice way to save your face :wavey:

matthias
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:13 PM
14th post in this thread, there´s a pre-press release, Matze ("appropriate" nickname?)

i was too lazy to read the whole thread
and please don´t call me "Matze"

Klaudia
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:15 PM
To me she made some stupid mistakes. Some girls have a tough way into the professional world and she, had big companies behind her and Nick Bolleteri's support which help her get many WCs to big tournaments and that is how she got a high ranking right away. It's unfair for the girls that work really hard to make it. She should get way more than two years. How sad for someone to want to take drugs to be good than to work hard on your own and make it. That is sooooooo cheating! Who knows, maybe she was encouraged by her management company and others to do this because they make a nice percentage on her winnings as well. I am sure she is not the only one out there and that there's many more except, those other girls know when not to take it before big tournaments. And those girls start doing results way too quickly out there and I won't name any names but we know who they are..... She is so stupid to have destroyed all that she had going for her. WHAT A FREAKEN SHAME AND IT"S SAD FOR ALL THOSE THAT WORK THEIR ASS OFF.

harloo
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:20 PM
I think she should be cut some slack. She is only 16 years old and someone in her camp probably got in her ear about taking steroids. It's quite sad that she is banned for two years but those are the consequences of cheating. I do wish her well and hopefully she gets some guidance while she is out of the game.

We all have made a mistake in our lives and she is no different. She will still be young if she comes back. I hope that she gets the support from her family that she desperately needs right now. ;)

CDGS22
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Maria Sharapova is probably laughing right now, after all of the remarks sesil made about her.

incognito
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:22 PM
You're making a lot of assumptions here.
Not many assumptions, just one very reasonable assumption - that she used it knowing about the benefits and risks involved...

With doping substances in general there are issues such as how to make the body utilize whatever you take optimally to achieve the maximum possible effect, possible side effects that need to be avoided as well as what can be done to lower the risk of getting caught. In light of such issues, it wouldn't make much sense to give it to her without her knowing...

griffin
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Here's a pretty good article I found on nandrolone:
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/nandrolone/nandj.htm

If Sesil really was pregnant, she would have had a leg to stand on during her hearing.

True, but according to the earlier reports, tests also concluded that she was NOT pregnant.

Given her age at the time of the tests, I do think 2 years is harsh for a first offence, and of course any coach or trainer who gave her the drugs should also be punished. But 15 year-olds do have brains, and she's responsible for her own actions.

harloo
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:30 PM
True, but according to the earlier reports, tests also concluded that she was NOT pregnant.

Given her age at the time of the tests, I do think 2 years is harsh for a first offence, and of course any coach or trainer who gave her the drugs should also be punished. But 15 year-olds do have brains, and she's responsible for her own actions.

I don't think two years is harsh in the least bit, but her handlers should be banned for life. They should be held responsible for allowing this to happen. Maybe that seems a bit harsh but this is a 15 year old girl.

lauryn
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Oh Sesil, how could you be so stupid? :sad: Such a harsh punishment, yet understandable.

I'm so mad at Sesil's entourage, she's a talented girl, she didn't need this. Who brought her in contact with these drugs? I hope they will be banned for life and will never get close to a tennis court again.

Meeek
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:32 PM
It's a hard punishment, but it's deserved imo. Hopefully, the ones who gave her the doping will face concequences too.
But it's good that doping is being punished this way. It will make others think twice before doing so. Cheaters do not belong in sports.

Tylane
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:33 PM
Finally the truth ;)

Thank you L'Equipe for having let know us before WTA.
Who said it's an horrible french tabloid ???? :lol:

DuLeafs quote
" From the second I heard the french newspaper l'equipe published it first, I know this couldnt be true.

For crying out loud, its the same bloody newspaper who is publishing bullshit stories about Lance Armstrong had a positive test and I can go on and on...

Conclusion: L'equipe is full of bullshit "

Conclusion: Armstrong is doped too...

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:33 PM
True, but according to the earlier reports, tests also concluded that she was NOT pregnant.

Given her age at the time of the tests, I do think 2 years is harsh for a first offence, and of course any coach or trainer who gave her the drugs should also be punished. But 15 year-olds do have brains, and she's responsible for her own actions.
If pregnancy was her alibi, and tests confirmed that she wasn't pregnant, then the tribunal had to conclude that she took the nandrolone to enhance her athletic performance, which resulted in the maximum suspension. As far as her career being over because of this, that's absurd. Eighteen-year-olds don't come back; they start over.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Just terrible news

One doping offence and you can put it aside to "chance". But two times, is no longer a "coincidence". I am really sad for her, and think she has bad advisers

And it is even sadder that she was prepared for an answer to the charges with "I am pregnant" at 15. This is just a terribly sad day. It will never be forgotten, and will follow her around for the rest of her career

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Not many assumptions, just one very reasonable assumption - that she used it knowing about the benefits and risks involved...

With doping substances in general there are issues such as how to make the body utilize whatever you take optimally to achieve the maximum possible effect, possible side effects that need to be avoided as well as what can be done to lower the risk of getting caught. In light of such issues, it wouldn't make much sense to give it to her without her knowing...

And until we have proof otherwise, it's also a very reasonable assumption that, at 15, she was administered the drug unknowlingly.

It doesn't really matter whether or not it makes sense to give someone a steroid without him/her knowing...it's done all the time. East Germany and later China built an entire program around doping athletes in such a manner. Individual athletes were not given the opportunity to weigh the risks and benefits for themselves. I don't know why you're convinced that this couldn't possibly have been the case with Sesil.

Ermintrude
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:36 PM
........Nandrolone can be administered orally and it's quite possible that someone in her camp provided it to her and she may have believed she was taking a supplement. I would look no further than her ex-olympic athlete father...

Of course, we have no way of knowing for sure whether she took nandrolone knowlingly or not, but I think the 2 year ban for a 15 year old is a little harsh...
Then Sesil would surely have used this as her defence (as most athletes caught using steroids do). As Griffin says below, the pregnancy claim was proved to be false - something which can't have gone down too well with the panel.

True, but according to the earlier reports, tests also concluded that she was NOT pregnant.

Given her age at the time of the tests, I do think 2 years is harsh for a first offence, and of course any coach or trainer who gave her the drugs should also be punished. But 15 year-olds do have brains, and she's responsible for her own actions.
The fact that she was caught out twice totally justfies the 2 year ban imo. She's a professional athlete and competing on the professional tour (and earning the professionals wages!). She should therefore be treated the same as any other player. Age is no excuse for a lighter sentence - although it may be an excuse for her willingness (or otherwise) to take the banned substance.

booa
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Finally the truth ;)

Thank you L'Equipe for having let know us before WTA.
Who said it's an horrible french tabloid ???? :lol:
We are all waiting for DuLeafs' comments :devil:

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:38 PM
wow, that's so sad.....because she really is a child....at 15. :sad:

Now if she was 18 or older...even 17....I would think more harshly of her but 15 year olds are extremely impressionable and frankly we in society hold parents partially responsible for minors as their brain and reasoning capabilities are still developing....her coach, dad and anyone else around her should be investigated vigorously...actually I think they should've offered Sesil a deal tell how, when, and who and we'll give you a break on the suspension because it seems to me finding out those things will go a long way to getting drugs out of the sport compared to banning a 16 year old.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:38 PM
It's a hard punishment, but it's deserved imo. Hopefully, the ones who gave her the doping will face concequences too.
Unfortunately, the WADA does not prosecute coach/advisers, because the player is ultimately responsible for putting in their mouth what they put(unless people think that her bad advisers secretly mix the drugs in her food and she does not know about it)

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Oh Sesil, how could you be so stupid? :sad: Such a harsh punishment, yet understandable.

I'm so mad at Sesil's entourage, she's a talented girl, she didn't need this. Who brought her in contact with these drugs? I hope they will be banned for life and will never get close to a tennis court again.
Why are so many people assuming someone in Sesil's camp got the nandrolone for her? Who's to say that Sesil didn't buy it on her own?

ClaudiaZ-S
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:41 PM
So l'EQUIPE :yeah:

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:46 PM
L'equipe is vindicated 3 out of 4 this year (Hood, Puerta, Karatantcheva). Now the burden of proof sure falls on Armstrong's strong arms ;)

Corswandt
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Given her age at the time of the tests, I do think 2 years is harsh for a first offence

Yes, I think so too.

Maybe she wasn't able to produce anything in the way of extenuating circumstances? If that crazy pregnancy story was the only defense she could come up with, a harsh penalty becomes somewhat more understandable.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:49 PM
And until we have proof otherwise, it's also a very reasonable assumption that, at 15, she was administered the drug unknowlingly.No, the reasonable assumption is she knew what she took. It is possible it was administered to her unknowingly, but virtually anyone in a position to do that knew the risks to her career. Is a coach or a trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? If she doesn't know she's taking it, the chances of being caught are WAY higher.

Sure it's possible, but it's way likelier she knew what she was doing.

manu32
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:49 PM
she is a liar.....pregnancy??? ridiculous.....two positives controls.....she is an addict ...for a few months or years??? she said "never been in London"....false.....she could be punished for two offences so she is lucky..ambition is not talent.....sorry venus.....

Freakan
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:49 PM
Why are so many people assuming someone in Sesil's camp got the nandrolone for her? Who's to say that Sesil didn't buy it on her own?

Because she's coached by her dad and we all know many stories about problems with fathers of young and very promising tennis players: Dokic, Lucic, Pierce etc.
In my opinion that was his idea. What is more, he isn't an :angel:
And remember that she was 15, it's hard to believe (for me) that it was her idea.

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:51 PM
Then Sesil would surely have used this as her defence (as most athletes caught using steroids do). As Griffin says below, the pregnancy claim was proved to be false - something which can't have gone down too well with the panel.

Not necessarily. We don't know what her camp advised her to say. Once presented with her test results, do you honestly believe she sat down, alone, and came up with defenses/justifications on her own? There are adult tennis players that do not make a single move without instruction from their parents, coaches, management team, etc...imagine a 15 year old...

Again, I don't know her guilt or innocence. Just suggesting that it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she took the substance unknowlingly.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:52 PM
L'equipe is vindicated 3 out of 4 this year (Hood, Puerta, Karatantcheva). Now the burden of proof sure falls on Armstrong's strong arms ;)Cycling is one sport that has really been serious about drug testing. They've thrown whole teams out of the sport. So unless I see proof, I don't believe they caught Armstrong and then protected him. Becasue that's the real accusation. That the cycling federation is protecting him.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:52 PM
she is a liar.....pregnancy??? ridiculous.....two positives controls.....she is an addict ...for a few months or years??? .
Apparently pregnancy (I am currently 6 months pregnant :) ) does produce higher levels of nandrolone
However, the lab also did a pregnancy test on her urine and it came back negative. The important thing is that Sesil had somehow researched, or been told, that pregnancy creates nandrolone (this is not something many people know), and was prepared with an answer for them if she was caught -- it points a little bit more to her guilt

manu32
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:52 PM
another question:why kuzneztova (positive in an exhibition) was not punished???
it's like a control off competition???

Hurley
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:53 PM
I like Sesil. But if she doped, this is a good thing.

See you in 2008, then.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:54 PM
another question:why kuzneztova (positive in an exhibition) was not punished???
it's like a control off competition???

the test wasn't performed by the WTA but by the Belgium federation...

also, what she tested positive for wasn't illegal during the off season.

Freewoman33
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:55 PM
I feel really bad for her. I hope she can get herself together and come back strong after the ban. She's very young and she has her whole tennis future ahead of her. Hopefully, she will learn her lesson.

ClaudiaZ-S
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Now , I think she can read our posts ! :eek: 2 years! :lol:

Spunky83
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:58 PM
another question:why kuzneztova (positive in an exhibition) was not punished???
it's like a control off competition???

Wasn´t it because it was the off-season?

Joana
Jan 11th, 2006, 05:58 PM
She may have been 15 but she's still a professional athlete. The rules should be just like for everybody else.

Paneru
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:02 PM
I think it's just shocking!!

She's just 16, someone in her environment must (also) be responsible for this!!! :(

I'm right with you.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people
are going after a 16 year-old when she obviously didn't act
on her own and is still under legal gaurdianship of her parents.

Doesn't her father/coach(?)/camp deserve to be
investigated and come under much of this scrutiny?

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:03 PM
One thing that sucks, if she still claims she never took anything, how does her supplier get caught? Surely someone in her camp is interested in the answer to that question! Her father ought to be, and so should her trainer, or anyone else. Their reputations are on the line here too. I know if I'm her coach, and I believe her when she says she never took anything, then I have some serious questions for the other adults around.

Even if you think she's lying, there's still the question of who's the supplier.
I cannot for the life of me understand why people are going after a 16 year-old when she obviously didn't act on her ownWhy is that 'obvious'? Performance enhancing drugs are readily available to an affluent, world-traveling teenager. Hell, forget 'affluent' and 'world-traveling'.Doesn't her father/coach(?) deserve to be investigated and come under much of this scrutiny?Yes. But that's a law enforcement problem, unless SHE says he supplied her with drugs.

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:04 PM
No, the reasonable assumption is she knew what she took. It is possible it was administered to her unknowingly, but virtually anyone in a position to do that knew the risks to her career. Is a coach or a trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? If she doesn't know she's taking it, the chances of being caught are WAY higher.

Sure it's possible, but it's way likelier she knew what she was doing.

Is a coach or trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? Of course they are! If they believe the risk of getting caught is outweighed by the benefits. It happens all the time. And in what way are the chances of being caught "WAY" higher if she doesn't know what she's taking? If I were a coach/parent/trainer wanting to provide my athlete with steroids, I might want to have complete control over that, and not let the 15 year old in on it...

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:05 PM
I'm right with you.

I cannot for the life of me understand why people
are going after a 16 year-old when she obviously didn't act
on her own and is still under legal gaurdianship of her parents.

ITF can prosecute only people they have domain over, which are the professional players.
They are effectively going after her parents (or whoever manages her career) -- if they are the ones pushing their own child to do drugs in order to get ahead illegally, then this is as much punishment for them. They can stop seeing $$$$ in their eyes for a couple years now

If her parents are in fact pushing her to do this, all I can say is: with parents like these, who needs enemies??? :eek:

Paneru
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Is a coach or trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? Of course they are! If they believe the risk of getting caught is outweighed by the benefits. It happens all the time. And in what way are the chances of being caught "WAY" higher if she doesn't know what she's taking? If I were a coach/parent/trainer wanting to provide my athlete with steroids, I might want to have complete control over that, and not let the 15 year old in on it...

Exactly!

Pro-athlete or not she is still a child who's safety and well being is still the responsibility of her father and her camp. NO WAY anyone is telling me she took steriods having acted alone and NO ONE in her camp father/coach/trainer/ect....knew nothing.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:08 PM
I wonder if Sesil tried to use her bagel-breadstick loss to Sharapova at Wimbledon in her defense? "I played just as poorly on the juice as I did off of it, so why even bother suspending me?" ;)

Meesh
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Her BIO on WTA states: trains half year at Nick Bolletieri Tennis Academy and other half in Bulgaria.

She is so young, this is so sad!

Paneru
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:09 PM
ITF can prosecute only people they have domain over, which are the professional players.
They are effectively going after her parents (or whoever manages her career) -- if they are the ones pushing their own child to do drugs in order to get ahead illegally, then this is as much punishment for them. They can stop seeing $$$$ in their eyes for a couple years now

If her parents are in fact pushing her to do this, all I can say is: with parents like these, who needs enemies??? :eek:

Thanks for explaining this
to me. Very sad.

Given the stories of her father
I highly doubt he wasn't involved.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Is a coach or trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? Of course they are! If they believe the risk of getting caught is outweighed by the benefits. It happens all the time.Actually, no it doesn't. That isn't to say coaches and trainers don't see what's going on, but the sources are mostly other athletes. Of course, in this case, parent and coach IS an ex-Olympic athlete...
And in what way are the chances of being caught "WAY" higher if she doesn't know what she's taking?Because while she's subject to both in-competition and out-of-competition drugs tests, there ARE masking agents that hide the chemical markers for some performance enhancing drugs. In fact, some substances are banned for no other reason than that they ARE masking agents.

If she knows she taking drugs, she can actively try to beat the testing. If she doesn't know, she assumes she's clean.

Freakan
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Her BIO on WTA states: trains half year at Nick Bolletieri Tennis Academy and other half in Bulgaria.

She is so young, this is so sad!

She doesn't train at NBTA anymore. Actually, it's probably because of problems caused by her father.

manu32
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM
ok they can attack parents or coach....but it doesn't change player's sanction..nothing to do.....it's a fact if they are guilty too,but not an excuse.....
she is maybe a virgin,and if she said she was pregnant....she must be published in the lancet.......

Knizzle
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Sesil had to cheat to beat Venus, LMAO.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Is a coach or trainer going to risk losing their meal ticket? Of course they are! If they believe the risk of getting caught is outweighed by the benefits. It happens all the time. And in what way are the chances of being caught "WAY" higher if she doesn't know what she's taking? If I were a coach/parent/trainer wanting to provide my athlete with steroids, I might want to have complete control over that, and not let the 15 year old in on it...
But with steroids dominating the news the last three years, any athlete, regardless of age, would be stupid to take anything without asking what it is first, because they're the ones who suffer the consequences if they test positive.

Dawn Marie
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Why are people wanting her coaches.. where are her freakin' parents???

Ermintrude
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Not necessarily. We don't know what her camp advised her to say. Once presented with her test results, do you honestly believe she sat down, alone, and came up with defenses/justifications on her own? There are adult tennis players that do not make a single move without instruction from their parents, coaches, management team, etc...imagine a 15 year old...

Again, I don't know her guilt or innocence. Just suggesting that it's not out of the realm of possibilities that she took the substance unknowlingly.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I do however find it strange that her camp would come up with such an elaborate lie - and that Sesil would agree to say such things if she really had no idea what she was doing.
Unfortunately this seems to be another case of an extremely talented young player being manipulated by the adults "looking after" her.

Paneru
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:17 PM
Why are people wanting her coaches.. where are her freakin' parents???

Doesn't her father coach her or in some capacity anyway
involved in her tennis or than just supporter/spectator?

Either way, I think the parents, coaches,
and all should come under fire as well.

Corswandt
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Cycling is one sport that has really been serious about drug testing. They've thrown whole teams out of the sport. So unless I see proof, I don't believe they caught Armstrong and then protected him. Becasue that's the real accusation. That the cycling federation is protecting him.

The Lance Armstrong vs L'Équipe affair is complex: by crossing the data on two sets of documents, the newspaper came to the conclusion that Armstrong *did* use EPO in the 1999 Tour, but since the tests were only done in 2004 and weren't actually doping controls (rather, they were done as experiments to improve testing methods), no action could be taken.

What the UCI did was to deny the whole story, and to launch an investigation on the origin of the information leak.

Whether this amounts to a cover up or not ultimately comes down to opinion.

LefandePatty
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:22 PM
she was so nice :awww:
Why did you do that Sesil ? :fiery: :sad:

manu32
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:23 PM
sorry if you don't know if you are a virgin or not.....you got a big problem......

basset
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:23 PM
i can only repeat myself - sesil should be BANNED FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE!

booa
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:25 PM
i can only repeat myself - sesil should be BANNED FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE!
That's her first offence.

lizchris
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:28 PM
As a Venus fan, Sesil got what she deserved.

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Actually, no it doesn't.

So, coaches, parents, etc. don't take risks with their meal ticket all the time, if they think there's a possibility of greater gain? Um, ok...we'll just agree to disagree here.


Because while she's subject to both in-competition and out-of-competition drugs tests, there ARE masking agents that hide the chemical markers for some performance enhancing drugs. In fact, some substances are banned for no other reason than that they ARE masking agents.

If she knows she taking drugs, she can actively try to beat the testing. If she doesn't know, she assumes she's clean.

Of course there are masking agents, many (most) of which are also detectable. Considering the known masking agents are also detectable and banned, how is Sesil's awareness going to allow her to actively beat anything? Assuming the tests are indeed random, she would have to be on masking agents constantly...a parent/coach could easily provide her such a "water pill" and say it's a vitamin/supplement.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:32 PM
As a Venus fan, Sesil got what she deserved.

ah, please don't bring Venus' name up in that meaness...she's just a girl and frankly I have yet to meet a 15/14 year old who thinks the negative outcome will happen to them...whether it's pregnancy, cheating, drinking or anything. :(

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:33 PM
So, coaches, parents, etc. don't take risks with their meal ticket all the time, if they think there's a possibility of greater gain? Um, ok...we'll just agree to disagree here.



Of course there are masking agents, many (most) of which are also detectable. Considering the known masking agents are also detectable and banned, how is Sesil's awareness going to allow her to actively beat anything? Assuming the tests are indeed random, she would have to be on masking agents constantly...a parent/coach could easily provide her a "water pill" and say it's a vitamin/supplement.
In that case, shame on Sesil for not making sure she was not taking a banned substance, even if it was given to her by her parents. Sesil is the one who'll carry the "drug cheat" label for the rest of her life, not her parents or coaches, so it was on her to make sure she wasn't taking anything dirty.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:35 PM
As a Venus fan, Sesil got what she deserved.
Dope or no dope, Liz, Venus still should have won that match.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:39 PM
In that case, shame on Sesil for not making sure she was not taking a banned substance, even if it was given to her by her parents. Sesil is the one who'll carry the "drug cheat" label for the rest of her life, not her parents or coaches, so it was on her to make sure she wasn't taking anything dirty.
I agree with this.

I think the fact that she had a prepared answer ("I am pregnant") when confronted with the accusation of nandrolone shows that she had been told/or was aware that pregnancy can be a reasonable cause for elevated nandrolone. So few people (even pregnant people like me!!!!) do not know this to be true, and the fact that she did goes a long way for me to show that she is somehow complicit, knew what she was taking/what they were making her take

G-Ha
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:39 PM
...she's just a girl and frankly I have yet to meet a 15/14 year old who thinks the negative outcome will happen to them...whether it's pregnancy, cheating, drinking or anything. :(

This is an excellent point, which is why, even if she knowlingly took the substance, I believe giving her the full term ban that they would give any similarly situated adult athlete, is extreme. We don't hold minors to adult standards in most aspects of life because we believe minors are unable to fully understand and appreciate the consequences of their actions. I think this should be taken into account as a mitigating circumstance in Sesil's case.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:40 PM
In that case, shame on Sesil for not making sure she was not taking a banned substance, even if it was given to her by her parents. Sesil is the one who'll carry the "drug cheat" label for the rest of her life, not her parents or coaches, so it was on her to make sure she wasn't taking anything dirty.

I want to know what world do you live in where a 15 year old is that self aware and involved in the care and well being of their life? Most teenagers would never believe that anything bad is going to happen to them....that's why there are lots of things they can't do at 15....

harloo
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Why are people wanting her coaches.. where are her freakin' parents???

An explanation from the parents and coaches would be appropriate after questioning Sesil on who was the supplier. If she was an adult it would be a different story, but she is a child. I don't believe that she was solely responsible for this situation.

©@®eLess
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:41 PM
poor Sesil!

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:42 PM
This is an excellent point, which is why, even if she knowlingly took the substance, I believe giving her the full term ban that they would give any similarly situated adult athlete, is extreme. We don't hold minors to adult standards in most aspects of life because we believe minors are unable to fully understand and appreciate the consequences of their actions. I think this should be taken into account as a mitigating circumstance in Sesil's case.

I agree too...Sesil is not old enough to probably even spend her money as she sees fit so I don't understand why they wouldn't hold her guardians partially responsible?? How come the WTA can ban dads from tournaments but if their minor child tests positive there is nothing that can be done? :confused:

Andy T
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:51 PM
I agree with this.

I think the fact that she had a prepared answer ("I am pregnant") when confronted with the accusation of nandrolone shows that she had been told/or was aware that pregnancy can be a reasonable cause for elevated nandrolone. So few people (even pregnant people like me!!!!) do not know this to be true, and the fact that she did goes a long way for me to show that she is somehow complicit, knew what she was taking/what they were making her take

I don't know if this is possible but couldn't they do a pregnancy test on the same samples she gave for drug controls to see if that was true or not?

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:52 PM
I want to know what world do you live in where a 15 year old is that self aware and involved in the care and well being of their life? Most teenagers would never believe that anything bad is going to happen to them....that's why there are lots of things they can't do at 15....
Sesil lives in a world where a 15-year-old needs to be aware of such things, because the anti-doping rules don't make allowances for minors. You can argue that minors shouldn't be subject to the same sentencing rules as adults, and I would wholeheartedly agree with that argument; if minors can be fined and suspended like adults, then they shouldn't be restricted as to how many tournaments they can play. Unfortunately for Sesil, the rules apply to her just like every other player, so she and she alone is responsible for what she puts into her body.

Andy T
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:54 PM
As a Venus fan, Sesil got what she deserved.
I saw the match and frankly, she'd have beaten Venus that day even if she'd been smoking pot during the changeovers. Venus played dreadfully!

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:57 PM
I don't know if this is possible but couldn't they do a pregnancy test on the same samples she gave for drug controls to see if that was true or not?

They did
That's what caught her. Her urine tested positive for nandrolone but not for beta-HCG (the other hormone which is present in the urine within 7 days of getting pregnant, and then stays in the mother's urine for the rest of the pregnancy)

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 06:59 PM
So I guess l'Equipe didn't make anything up after all :p

manu32
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:00 PM
I don't know if this is possible but couldn't they do a pregnancy test on the same samples she gave for drug controls to see if that was true or not?

HCG (pregnancy hormon) is detectable after one week but no steroids (male hormones) at the beginning.....
oestrogenes and progesterone and prolactin are the hormones of a pregnancy.....

fammmmedspin
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Another mystery with the same drug involved. Given the numbers of athletes involved in cases over nandralone and the unlkely stupidity of anyone taking a drug that keeps on being detected you wonder if anything is particularly clear cut.

Volcana
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:11 PM
Sesil lives in a world where a 15-year-old needs to be aware of such things, because the anti-doping rules don't make allowances for minors. You can argue that minors shouldn't be subject to the same sentencing rules as adults, and I would wholeheartedly agree with that argument; if minors can be fined and suspended like adults, then they shouldn't be restricted as to how many tournaments they can play. Unfortunately for Sesil, the rules apply to her just like every other player, so she and she alone is responsible for what she puts into her body.I don't agree with the idea that minors should face a lesser sanction. These aren't criminal penalties. It could be argued that minors shouldn't be allowed to play the sport at all. It could be arguerd it's too physically demanding on developing bodies. But if minors ARE allowed to play the sport, then participation should certainly be limited to those responsible enough to understand the rules and adher to them.

saniafan2005
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:12 PM
I dont think sesil is young enough to make a mistake. She is a professional tennis player earning millions, so she is a sufficiently knowledgable person about the drugs and its effects. She has herself to blame for.
By the way, I saw first grade kids learning about drugs and their bad effects here in US.

RenaSlam.
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Stupid Slut Steroid Sesil! GRRR

TFan1156
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Stupid Slut Steroid Sesil! GRRR

It is typically best for those that live in glass houses to refrain from throwing stones.... ;)

RenaSlam.
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:17 PM
It is typically best for those that live in glass houses to refrain from throwing stones.... ;)

LMAO at the biggest Steroid Sesil fan of them all! :lol:

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:19 PM
I don't agree with the idea that minors should face a lesser sanction. These aren't criminal penalties. It could be argued that minors shouldn't be allowed to play the sport at all. It could be arguerd it's too physically demanding on developing bodies. But if minors ARE allowed to play the sport, then participation should certainly be limited to those responsible enough to understand the rules and adher to them.

Yes, this is a good point
If 15 year olds are allowed to participate, and earn the $$$$ that 30-year olds are also competing for, then they should also be liable for the punishment that comes with it
It is a shame that ITF does not have legal jurisdiction over the advisor/coach/parent but only over the professional athelete

TFan1156
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:20 PM
LMAO at the biggest Steroid Sesil fan of them all! :lol:

Okay, still got a lot of life ahead don`t you? Well when the laugh is on you and/or you hope for a bit of mercy in a hardship or after a bad decision, do not cry when you don`t get it, k? ;)

Sally Struthers
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:20 PM
"The 16-year-old Bulgarian failed one drug test after losing at Roland Garros on May 31, then failed an out-of-competition test in Tokyo on July 5, the International Tennis Federation said Wednesday. Both tests were treated as a first offense by an ITF tribunal that met Dec. 14-15 in London."

so she didn't fuck up once but twice.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:22 PM
Yes, this is a good point
If 15 year olds are allowed to participate, and earn the $$$$ that 30-year olds are also competing for, then they should also be liable for the punishment that comes with it
It is a shame that ITF does not have legal jurisdiction over the advisor/coach/parent but only over the professional athelete

ah but 15 year olds can't earn the same amount of $$$...they can't play a full schedule on the WTA?? :confused:

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:25 PM
ah but 15 year olds can't earn the same amount of $$$...they can't play a full schedule on the WTA?? :confused:
But in a given tournament they can, right?
Once she participates in the French Open, she will earn as much as anyone else reaching the QF. No one says "You are only 15 and need only to buy a few clothes and CDs, so less money for you"
So it should not be that she redeems all benefits equally, but punishments in less measure

Already, I think ITF is lenient by treating 2 separate offenses as 1 offense. She would have been looking maybe at 4 years of they treat separately, maybe.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
I don't agree with the idea that minors should face a lesser sanction. These aren't criminal penalties. It could be argued that minors shouldn't be allowed to play the sport at all. It could be arguerd it's too physically demanding on developing bodies. But if minors ARE allowed to play the sport, then participation should certainly be limited to those responsible enough to understand the rules and adher to them.
If players under 18 are subject to the same penalties as adults for breaking the rules, Volcana, then they should also have the freedom to play as many events as they want. Besides, teen phenoms have been the lifeblood of the WTA Tour since it was formed in 1973. There's no way they'll ever ban teens from playing.

kwanfan
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
It's funny that people complain about Maria saying she's only 18 when talking about stuff, yet are all ready to use the age excuse for Sesil. She may be 15, but she is a professional athlete. Professional athletes should know what goes in their body.

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:27 PM
For 15 old CHILDREN (girls particularly) pater/coach is "GOD" - if thay say "thats is good", thats is good - no doubt!

Sesil's stupid, bizzare "prignant" explanation is maybe proof about this situation:


REAL OFFENDER: Take this litle Sesil
15' OLD SESIL: Why my lord?
REAL OFFENDER: To play better and stronger
15' OLD SESIL: Is this properly?
REAL OFFENDER: Ha-ha... welcome in adults/sports world my child - everybody that doing
15' OLD SESIL: What if...
REAL OFFENDER: What "what if"???!!?
15' OLD SESIL: If announce...
REAL OFFENDER: Dont worry, thats never happen, wta, public and media wants new faces like you... and if announce, we demand and tell that you is pregnant and that is reason for strange tests results!
15' OLD SESIL (turn color): hi-hi-hi If you say...
REAL OFFENDER: Trust me, i know what is the best for you litle princess

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:34 PM
But in a given tournament they can, right?
Once she participates in the French Open, she will earn as much as anyone else reaching the QF. No one says "You are only 15 and need only to buy a few clothes and CDs, so less money for you"
So it should not be that she redeems all benefits equally, but punishments in less measure

Already, I think ITF is lenient by treating 2 separate offenses as 1 offense. She would have been looking maybe at 4 years of they treat separately, maybe.
Anabolics don't pass through your system in a day or two like recreational drugs, and the more potent the drug, like nandrolone, the longer it stays in your system. Sesil could have stopped using the day before Roland Garros and still tested positive in July.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Anabolics don't pass through your system in a day or two like recreational drugs, and the more potent the drug, like nandrolone, the longer it stays in your system. Sesil could have stopped using the day before Roland Garros and still tested positive in July.
Oh I did not know that
I assumed that in blood samples it could be found much later than it was taken but not in urine samples

sweetiepiedoll
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Apparently pregnancy (I am currently 6 months pregnant :) ) does produce higher levels of nandrolone
However, the lab also did a pregnancy test on her urine and it came back negative. The important thing is that Sesil had somehow researched, or been told, that pregnancy creates nandrolone (this is not something many people know), and was prepared with an answer for them if she was caught -- it points a little bit more to her guilt

Are you pregnant by R.Federer? Congrats on your pregnancy and I hope you and the baby's daddy have a healthy baby.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:43 PM
Are you pregnant by R.Federer? Congrats on your pregnancy and I hope you and the baby's daddy have a healthy baby.
In my dreams, yes! In reality, no.... just a non-tennis player who is not very good at sports except running long distance. But we find out we are having a baby boy, and since my husband is Schweiz, I am considering Roger for a name (not with great support from my husband)

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:53 PM
But in a given tournament they can, right?
Once she participates in the French Open, she will earn as much as anyone else reaching the QF. No one says "You are only 15 and need only to buy a few clothes and CDs, so less money for you"
So it should not be that she redeems all benefits equally, but punishments in less measure

Already, I think ITF is lenient by treating 2 separate offenses as 1 offense. She would have been looking maybe at 4 years of they treat separately, maybe.

but the penalty isn't a "french open" penalty it's a WTA penalty and she is not eligible for the same things as an adult player.

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Well as somebody who was saying at the time to not get on top of Sesil before us knowing the full story, well, I stand corrected.

Sesil = What a stupid idiot :rolleyes:

timafi
Jan 11th, 2006, 07:57 PM
L'Equipe :worship: :worship: :worship:

Zauber
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM
As I said before this is very sad news all around.
I wish we could eliminate the extensive drug use in our society and sports.
Years ago my intrest in the Olympics decline because of it.
I am a huge fan of Sesil Karatancheva.
Two years is the penality for first time conviction in tennis and the olympics.
That seems to be reasonable if anything on this subject can be reasonable.
The concept of partial responsibility because of age is one that I have allways found very troubling.
By 12 years old the physical aspect of braindevelopment has concluded as far as brainfunction is concerned. reapair aspects of cours go on for ever.
I like to make a coment with regards to children and responsibility.
Responsibility is something that is gradually learned. In fact one should start very early. Small reasponsibilities can be given to very young children. They should be increased gradually.
Most people are fully capable of all responsibility by 12 -14 years old.
It is simply a question of socital values rather than the capability of humans.
Historicly speaking 15 year olds used to have to carry full reasponsibilities and functions of an adult.
It is only in our recent modern societies that we have decided to restrict and BABY (my value judgement) joung adults.
Our whole society encourages this now.
This young age should be one of education and responsibily rather than endless excuses.

cartmancop
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM
no wonder Venus lost :devil:

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:07 PM
but the penalty isn't a "french open" penalty it's a WTA penalty and she is not eligible for the same things as an adult player.
just to play devil's advocate ....

isn't her punishment a good thing in a way : it sends the message out there to other younger players (and their entourage) that cheating will not be tolerated at all (unless they are forced to/or the substances were administered to them without their knowledge-but I don't know too much about nandrolone/steroids to know how it would be given to her without her knowledge...).

Plus she was given some leniency (she failed drug tests on separate occasions... She's lucky not to get a life ban or something)

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:09 PM
Sesil = What a stupid idiot :rolleyes:


If Yury, when Masha have 15' tell her "take this", what you think - Masha dismiss him :eek: :eek: :eek: ??? No way... is that means "Masha = What a stupid idiot :rolleyes: ???

willrock
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:12 PM
what was she doing in Tokyo on July 5th? That's a strange location for a tennis player with no tournies anywhere near Asia at that time. Very odd.

Fed Cup : Japan vs Bulgaria ;)

Well this ban is a dissuasive decision but 2 years might be too much. I hope we'll see Sesil back in 2008...

*Karen*
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Hopefully she might win her appeal. Rusedski got away with it somehow.

marmite1
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:14 PM
She made a mistake. When/if she returns after her ban, as long as she doesn't reoffend, I dont think others should hold it against. Afterall, one should give her the benefit of the doubt and a second chance to show she has learnt from her mistake(s).

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:14 PM
If Yury, when Masha have 15' tell her "take this", what you think - Masha dismiss him :eek: :eek: :eek: ??? No way... is that means "Masha = What a stupid idiot :rolleyes: ???

Firstly, what has this got to do with Maria, I don't even like her, In fact ... I dont.
Secondly even Yuriy isn't dumb enough to give his daughter drugs, and Maria wouldn't be stupid enough to take them.
There is no excuse for drug takers. Even 15 yr olds have to have some sort of responsibility.

marmite1
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Hopefully she might win her appeal. Rusedski got away with it somehow.

Explain!?

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:15 PM
but the penalty isn't a "french open" penalty it's a WTA penalty and she is not eligible for the same things as an adult player.

No, the eligibility of how many tournaments can be played is determined by WTA, while the punishment is meted out by the ITF. (And, the WTA has not a word on their page about this dope scandal, even after every major news outlet has put it on theirs)

If the WTA was the one giving out punishments then your argument could be correct, she could be subject to different rules
But the ITF oversees the punishment, and they view every professional athelete equally and correctly gives the punishment with no regards to age

Andy T
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:16 PM
They did
That's what caught her. Her urine tested positive for nandrolone but not for beta-HCG (the other hormone which is present in the urine within 7 days of getting pregnant, and then stays in the mother's urine for the rest of the pregnancy)

Thanks for this info R. Federer. Knowing this, I am inclined to take a slightly less sympathetic line because it's clear that even if she didn't knowingly take the drugs, she CONSCIOUSLY lied to cover her tracks. I do agree with those posters who highlight the distinction between the level of personal responsibility that should be demanded of someone like Puerta, a man of 28 or so, and an adolescent of 16, though.

R. Federer
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Hopefully she might win her appeal. Rusedski got away with it somehow.
He was "lucky" that the ATP was the one giving out possibly tainted supplements, and there was no way to prove that the supplements he took did not come from them

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:24 PM
Explain!?
something to do with ATP trainers giving some players, including him, supplements ... why should he be convicted for something ATP itself gave him :angel:

incognito
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:26 PM
After the ban she will still only be 18 years old and considering the restrictions of the AER, she won't have missed out on too much. There are very few players today that achieve big things before their 18th birthday (i.e. Sharapova) and Karatancheva isn't one of them from what I've seen...

If she would have gotten a 1 year ban or even less, then I wonder what kind of message that would send to other up-and-coming 15-16 year olds (or their trainers) who might become tempted to use doping as a mean to propel their careers the way Karatancheva did at the FO. Even if you get caught, you'll be back long before your 18th birthday, so go for it?

KoOlMaNsEaN
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:28 PM
:mad: sesil i had faith in you :mad:

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Oh Sesil, how could you be so stupid? :sad: Such a harsh punishment, yet understandable.

I'm so mad at Sesil's entourage, she's a talented girl, she didn't need this. Who brought her in contact with these drugs? I hope they will be banned for life and will never get close to a tennis court again.

The problem is "they" have two more daughters who are "ready" to get destroyed the same way. :mad:

I won't say anything here, cause I would be too harsh with some posters and I don't need to go to their level right now.

Pheobo
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Well, it'll be interesting to see if she comes back or not. And if she does, how she will do.

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:44 PM
After the ban she will still only be 18 years old and considering the restrictions of the AER, she won't have missed out on too much. There are very few players today that achieve big things before their 18th birthday (i.e. Sharapova) and Karatancheva isn't one of them from what I've seen...

If she would have gotten a 1 year ban or even less, then I wonder what kind of message that would send to other up-and-coming 15-16 year olds (or their trainers) who might become tempted to use doping as a mean to propel their careers the way Karatancheva did at the FO. Even if you get caught, you'll be back long before your 18th birthday, so go for it?

Yeh the best thing for her to do would be to just keep training on a full training schedual for thos 2 years if she is serious about tennis. Get fitter than she was before, improve her game. It gives her some time that she otherwise wouldnt and she should at least take that and work with it.

Wiggly
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:44 PM
Sad. career maybe over? :confused: :sad:

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:51 PM
Firstly, what has this got to do with Maria, I don't even like her, In fact ... I dont.
Secondly even Yuriy isn't dumb enough to give his daughter drugs, and Maria wouldn't be stupid enough to take them.
There is no excuse for drug takers. Even 15 yr olds have to have some sort of responsibility.

I dont talk about "MARIA" or "SESIL" - i talk about "15yr old Maria" and "15yr old Sesil". Obviously nobody stupid dont give drugs Sharapova when she have 15' - but some dumb obviously give Sesil! My points that no girl with 15' who have full control of her career. Ok... i give you better sample, you dont like much Masha, but you love Jelena Dokic (even put her in avatar). How many years she have when she even attempt to say first time "NO" to Damir? If that freak when she have 15' require her "quit main-draw today and jump in draw-well tommorow" - she will do this without thinking, trust me.

Randy H
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:52 PM
What a shame, but as someone who likes Sesil, I had a difficult time believing the pregnancy story. Only a couple of weeks before the news broke, it had been reported that she had mentioned (I believe on Bulgarian television) that she had been considering retirement because she wasn't doing as well as she expected to do, but that she changed her mind. I can't help but think that perhaps she knew this was coming, and that was what may have prompted her retirement thoughts at that time.

Anyway, I was shocked when I first read that it was a 2 year ban, but I didn't realize until I read on that she had actually tested positive twice. Sesil was lucky that they did not consider it to be two separate offenses because they could have technically banned her for life. 2 years does sound like a harsh punishment for a 16 year old, and personally I do tend to think that there were likely people in her camp who are also responsible. Whether that be giving her the drugs themselves, or just not looking out for her like they ought to be, it's really too bad. That said though, I think that we sometimes forget how exposed kids and teens are these days...I certainly read a lot of stories of kids doing serious drugs at a few years younger than 16, and you wonder where they got it from and where were the families, but it happens, and kids are not as naive about these things anymore.

I just hope that this will be an eye opener to others, and I really hope that Sesil will return after the 2 years a wiser and more mature young lady and doesn't let this discourage her from coming back. She is a really nice girl and even though I do feel that this punishment is probably the correct one, I still can't help but feel some sadness for her too.

Sam L
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:53 PM
Goodbye Sesil. I doubt we'll see you back on courts again.

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I dont talk about "MARIA" or "SESIL" - i talk about "15yr old Maria" and "15yr old Sesil". Obviously nobody stupid dont give drugs Sharapova - but some dumb obviously give Sesil! My points that no girl with 15' who have full control of her career. Ok... i give you better sample, you dont like much Masha, but you love Jelena Dokic (even put her in avatar). How many years she have when she even attempt to say first time "NO" to Damir? If that freak when she have 15' require her "quit main-draw today and jump in draw-well tommorow" - she will do this without thinking, trust me.

Taking drugs and leaving a country with your family are two totally different things. Firstly one is an offence the other isn't.
If Sesil truely does have some sort of person who gave her the drugs without her knowing or forced her into taking them then she should've used that argument. She obviously didn't so who knows whether she did or not.
We can't assume that she wasn't taking them knowingly, we only know she took them. That is good enough for me.

Bubba08
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I am not sure that it was the best solution :shrug:
Time will tell.

nicky
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:56 PM
People, I must say you are very hard on this girl. She is 15. And a professional athlete, yes. But being a professional athlete doesn't make you an emotional adult - she's still in puberty. And that's a time in life where you try to find your own way, with ups and downs, and where you make mistakes (try to remember what stupid things you did at that age - can't be too long ago for most of you ;) ).

Should she have known not to take drugs? Yes
Should she be punished? Yes (and 2 years is correct IMO, if only to get the message across)
Should she be blamed for life? No - she has the right to a second chance.

Suppose she took the drugs without the knowledge of her entourage (which I do not believe):
Why would she have felt the need to do so?
Under what emotional pressure was she to do something to improve?
And who told her Nandrolone was effective?
Who supplied it?
Who told her to say she was pregnant?
If her entourage didn't know anything, shouldn't they have?

ITF should try to find those things out - and as far as I'm concerned they can offer her a reduction in punishment if she fully cooperates...

I personally think Sesil was told to take the stuff, by people around her, people who have great moral & emotional influence on her. You don't go against your dad/coach/whoever easily at 15 - you don't have the maturity yet. Or at least most 15 year olds don't. :shrug:

DragonFlame
Jan 11th, 2006, 08:56 PM
pffff, goodbye... that's the only thing i have to say :o

cynicole
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:04 PM
I'd have given her a one year ban for the nandrolone.

And I'd give her another year for whatever drug she must've been taking when she thought up the pregnancy excuse. (You're supposed to say "contaminated vitamin supplements!")

Freakan
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:05 PM
.
There is no excuse for drug takers. Even 15 yr olds have to have some sort of responsibility.

If Damir told Jelena to take drugs at 15, she would have done it. And it seems that Sesil's father isn't that much better than Damir.

maccardel
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:06 PM
well she now has two years to practice and hopefully come back to beat Maria who will be past her prime by then. At least Sesil's game will still be fresh, so this may be a blessing in disguise. Plus, she can now get an education and find better people to handle her business because obviously the current fuckups are just that. It is sad, very sad to see a career destroyed before it even began.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:07 PM
well she now has two years to practice and hopefully come back to beat Maria who will be past her prime by then. At least Sesil's game will still be fresh, so this may be a blessing in disguise. Plus, she can now get an education and find better people to handle her business because obviously the current fuckups are just that. It is sad, very sad to see a career destroyed before it even began.

All her fans should support her in that way!

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:11 PM
If Damir told Jelena to take drugs at 15, she would have done it. And it seems that Sesil's father isn't that much better than Damir.

Why is Jelena being brought up at all? The fact is that Damir being as bad as he is NEVER made Jelena take drugs, and who is to say Jelena would have? Jelena isn't dumb I doubt that she would've taken drugs unless her father would abuse her if she didn't (which knowing Damir he prob would) and then she would be able to claim that as a defence at her trial. But she never had one, because she never took drugs, because Damir never made her take drugs ... end of story.

Let us leave Jelena out of the whole discussion now ok :)

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Taking drugs and leaving a country with your family are two totally different things. Firstly one is an offence the other isn't.
If Sesil truely does have some sort of person who gave her the drugs without her knowing or forced her into taking them then she should've used that argument. She obviously didn't so who knows whether she did or not.
We can't assume that she wasn't taking them knowingly, we only know she took them. That is good enough for me.

And who talking here about "leaving a country" or something that??????

If Damir or Yury or... require his daughter when she have only 15' "take this" - she never dissmis him in this ages.

Denaon
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:12 PM
People, I must say you are very hard on this girl. She is 15. And a professional athlete, yes. But being a professional athlete doesn't make you an emotional adult - she's still in puberty. And that's a time in life where you try to find your own way, with ups and downs, and where you make mistakes (try to remember what stupid things you did at that age - can't be too long ago for most of you ;) ).

Should she have known not to take drugs? Yes
Should she be punished? Yes (and 2 years is correct IMO, if only to get the message across)
Should she be blamed for life? No - she has the right to a second chance.

Suppose she took the drugs without the knowledge of her entourage (which I do not believe):
Why would she have felt the need to do so?
Under what emotional pressure was she to do something to improve?
And who told her Nandrolone was effective?
Who supplied it?
Who told her to say she was pregnant?
If her entourage didn't know anything, shouldn't they have?

ITF should try to find those things out - and as far as I'm concerned they can offer her a reduction in punishment if she fully cooperates...

I personally think Sesil was told to take the stuff, by people around her, people who have great moral & emotional influence on her. You don't go against your dad/coach/whoever easily at 15 - you don't have the maturity yet. Or at least most 15 year olds don't. :shrug:

Agree 100%

RJWCapriati
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:14 PM
:) she had a bad attitude anyways....

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:14 PM
And who talking here about "leaving a country" or something that??????

If Damir or Yury or... require his daughter when she have only 15' "take this" - she never dissmis him in this ages.

You can't use that because it never happened. Damir never made Jelena take drugs, Yuri never made Maria take drugs. So there is no sense even pretending that either girl would've taken them because noone has a clue.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:18 PM
You can't use that because it never happened. Damir never made Jelena take drugs, Yuri never made Maria take drugs. So there is no sense even pretending that either girl would've taken them because noone has a clue.

You never know who made who take drugs or not.

I don't see what are you argueing about. A 15 year old, training all the day don't have access to steroids without an "external" help. And if we're talking about the law, ITF made it clear that for them it's equal if you're 15 or 50.

So case is closed until Sesil decides what to do with her future and I doubt this interests someone besides her fans.

Cp6uja
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I forget to tell one more thing:

Opinion that child with 15 is adult if she play proffesional tennis is ridiculous!!!

flyingmachine
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:22 PM
People, I must say you are very hard on this girl. She is 15. And a professional athlete, yes. But being a professional athlete doesn't make you an emotional adult - she's still in puberty. And that's a time in life where you try to find your own way, with ups and downs, and where you make mistakes (try to remember what stupid things you did at that age - can't be too long ago for most of you ;) ).

Should she have known not to take drugs? Yes
Should she be punished? Yes (and 2 years is correct IMO, if only to get the message across)
Should she be blamed for life? No - she has the right to a second chance.

Suppose she took the drugs without the knowledge of her entourage (which I do not believe):
Why would she have felt the need to do so?
Under what emotional pressure was she to do something to improve?
And who told her Nandrolone was effective?
Who supplied it?
Who told her to say she was pregnant?
If her entourage didn't know anything, shouldn't they have?

ITF should try to find those things out - and as far as I'm concerned they can offer her a reduction in punishment if she fully cooperates...

I personally think Sesil was told to take the stuff, by people around her, people who have great moral & emotional influence on her. You don't go against your dad/coach/whoever easily at 15 - you don't have the maturity yet. Or at least most 15 year olds don't. :shrug:
I agree with you too.

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:22 PM
You never know who made who take drugs or not.

I don't see what are you argueing about. A 15 year old, training all the day don't have access to steroids without an "external" help. And if we're talking about the law, ITF made it clear that for them it's equal if you're 15 or 50.

So case is closed until Sesil decides what to do with her future and I doubt this interests someone besides her fans.

Im arguing because some idiot tried to compare Maria and Jelena, two girls with, yes, demanding fathers but still who have never taken drugs.
It was a stupid comparison.

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:26 PM
I know some Sesil fans are upset with the 2 year ban, but this not only punishes Sesil but also her entourage (no more dollars for them) and sends a clear message to any other parents/coach who will try to influence younger players into taking drugs that it is not acceptable !!

I don't see how giving a more lenient punishment would help Sesil AND her entourage in understanding that ITF will not tolerate drugs...

It's a harsh punishment but it's necessary (plus they were lenient in their decision : she tested positive on TWO seperate occasion)...

It's really too bad that some parents will resort to these tactics to ensure their kids success though (if it was her parents/coach who made her take the drugs) :o:o:o:(

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:27 PM
Im arguing because some idiot tried to compare Maria and Jelena, two girls with, yes, demanding fathers but still who have never taken drugs.
It was a stupid comparison.

As I said, you never know who took what. They're all innocent until proven guilty but my opinion on the subject is widely known here.

Anyways, the main argument you used is that Sesil is responsible. A lot of people agree, others don't. You won't change your mind and Cp6uja, me and the other won't do it too. It's useless to continue because this thread is the most diguisting thing I've seen in a while and I've seen a lot.

Erika_Angel
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:30 PM
As I said, you never know who took what. They're all innocent until proven guilty but my opinion on the subject is widely known here.

Anyways, the main argument you used is that Sesil is responsible. A lot of people agree, others don't. You won't change your mind and Cp6uja, me and the other won't do it too. It's useless to continue because this thread is the most diguisting thing I've seen in a while and I've seen a lot.

No offence, but Sesil has been proven Guilty.

I said that 15 yr olds have to have some sense of responsibility yes, I believe that. And I was over after posting my first post, it was that other guy who tried to link Jelena to this because I had her in my avatar, when she has NOTHING to do with this in the slightest, and has never touched drugs.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:31 PM
I forget to tell one more thing:

Opinion that child with 15 is adult if she play proffesional tennis is ridiculous!!!

now this I agree with...

also, for the poster who said a persons brain is developed by 12....that's not accurate there are studies that show the reasoning area of the brain isn't fully developed until the age of 22 for most people....this would be the part of the brain that would tell a person it's highly likely you will be caught no matter what your dad, coach, boyfriend, etc. says...

Should she been punished........yes.
Should the people around her receive a stiffer penalty ...........yes because they are her guardians and are responsible for her and they did a piss poor job.

Man, there are 15yo who think if they pull out they won't get pregnant...or they can't get pregnant the first time they have sex or the old standby it won't happen to me so I'm not understanding why people would think even if Sesil knew she was taking drugs that she had the same reasoning ability of someone 18, 21, 25, etc and could forsee the impact of making that heinous choice would have on her life. :shrug:

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:33 PM
No offence, but Sesil has been proven Guilty.

I said that 15 yr olds have to have some sense of responsibility yes, I believe that. And I was over after posting my first post, it was that other guy who tried to link Jelena to this because I had her in my avatar, when she has NOTHING to do with this in the slightest, and has never touched drugs.

I am not offended, she IS proven guilty. I don't argue about that at all.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:36 PM
I know some Sesil fans are upset with the 2 year ban, but this not only punishes Sesil but also her entourage (no more dollars for them) and sends a clear message to any other parents/coach who will try to influence younger players into taking drugs that it is not acceptable !!

I don't see how giving a more lenient punishment would help Sesil AND her entourage in understanding that ITF will not tolerate drugs...

It's a harsh punishment but it's necessary (plus they were lenient in their decision : she tested positive on TWO seperate occasion)...

It's really too bad that some parents will resort to these tactics to ensure their kids success though (if it was her parents/coach who made her take the drugs) :o:o:o:(

ah, Why can't they ban the coaches/parents for life? That would show them even more wouldn't it? If a coach can't travel with the player how effective is he?

Also, do we know if she was informed that her sample was positive at the FO before she gave the 2nd sample or were they still running their sample b tests before informing the player.

I do think the 2 year ban effects the people around her but I think it adversly effects Sesil more than it does her entourage....why do I say this because now Sesil will just make a shit load of money doing the interview circuit...even more money for daddy.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Should she been punished........yes.
Should the people around her receive a stiffer penalty ...........yes because they are her guardians and are responsible for her and they did a piss poor job.

That sums it all. Nick said it one year ago that it will happen and it happened. Until now, he was SO RIGHT about everything conserning Sesil.. He knows her situation very well.

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:37 PM
You never know who made who take drugs or not.

I don't see what are you argueing about. A 15 year old, training all the day don't have access to steroids without an "external" help. And if we're talking about the law, ITF made it clear that for them it's equal if you're 15 or 50.

So case is closed until Sesil decides what to do with her future and I doubt this interests someone besides her fans.
If you have access to the World Wide Web, you have access to steroids.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:43 PM
If you have access to the World Wide Web, you have access to steroids.

Well, that's just :cuckoo:

Let me put it this way. Nandrolone is a steroid used for a VERY long time in sports. So, you suggest that Sesil would sit one day, between couple of hours training, make a search on Google, find some online pharmacies, take money from daddy, buy the drug, then administrate it to herself.

How does it sound to you?

Or we can see things from another point of view. Daddy's an ex rower. Daddy knows very well nandrolone...

P.S. Btw noone even thought for a moment that there are a lot more, newer result-enhancing drugs outthere?

beauty_is_pink
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:43 PM
holy crap!~ :speakles:

saying she was pregnant? :rolleyes: :lol:

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:46 PM
ah, Why can't they ban the coaches/parents for life? That would show them even more wouldn't it? If a coach can't travel with the player how effective is he?

Also, do we know if she was informed that her sample was positive at the FO before she gave the 2nd sample or were they still running their sample b tests before informing the player.

I do think the 2 year ban effects the people around her but I think it adversly effects Sesil than it does her entourage....why do I say this because now Sesil will just make a shit load of money doing the interview circuit...even more money for daddy.
Is that really possible? to stop a parent from coaching their kid, Rocketta ? ;)

I think all parent think they are looking out for the children's best interest and are very protective of them : so how do you expect ITF/WTA from banning coaches/parents for life (just being devil's advocate here) ? How do they stop them from travelling with the player ?

I'm not sure of what she was informed (but remember how she denied even going to London to face the panel in the first place and that l'Equipe was publishing this stuff cause the French dislike her!! :tape: ) ... But tests were made at RG and in Tokyo (another poster in this thread said she was there for Fed cup, but maybe I misread that post) ... I don't get the relevance of that argument with the B sample ...

I don't know how Sesil is going to make money doing interviews... At the moment her reputation is tarnished... The punishment is harsh but maybe now her entourage and herself will rethink the ways with which she can succeed on tour : they have 2 years to do so !!! Plus now, the reputation of her entourage is also tarnished, especially her dad

Sesil is still young... She will rebound and maybe get rid of her entourage as soon as she is of age :shrug:

mimosa
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:46 PM
Sesil is a poor little girl.
For all this situation the only responsible is her father/coach/. He wants to become rich for a few monts regardless of the health and the future of his dother. I hope this is not the end. I hope that Sesil will comback after 2 years and wil show how strong she is.
Sesil , good luck!
I will wait for you!
:hug:
Сесил, не се предавай, целият живот е пред теб и ти ще покажеш колко си силна и ще бъдеш една от най-добрите.

ceiling_fan
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:48 PM
this is kinda sad... but she is only a minor, can't someone else be responsible?

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:55 PM
Well, that's just :cuckoo:

Let me put it this way. Nandrolone is a steroid used for a VERY long time in sports. So, you suggest that Sesil would sit one day, between couple of hours training, make a search on Google, find some online pharmacies, take money from daddy, buy the drug, then administrate it to herself.

How does it sound to you?

Or we can see things from another point of view. Daddy's an ex rower. Daddy knows very well nandrolone...

P.S. Btw noone even thought for a moment that there are a lot more, newer result-enhancing drugs outthere?
You were the one who said that a 15-year-old girl in Sesil's situation doesn't have access to steroids without outside help. I'm just showing you how untrue that statement is. In fact, as a professional athlete, Sesil would have greater access to steroids than your average teenager. If you don't think Sesil couldn't have gotten the nandrolone on her own, you're sadly mistaken.

Junex
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:55 PM
Im Sad....but i will still give my support to Sesil..... :sad: :angel:

wurzelman
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:55 PM
A sad sad situation has developed. My view is that she/they should have been aware of the obvious penalties of using performance enhancing drugs, and the very high likelihood of being caught. By waiting a few years she would have developed into a very good player anyway without having to take these drugs. Patience is a virtue.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM
You were the one who said that a 15-year-old girl in Sesil's situation doesn't have access to steroids without outside help. I'm just showing you how untrue that statement is. In fact, as a professional athlete, Sesil would have greater access to steroids than your average teenager. If you don't think Sesil couldn't have gotten the nandrolone on her own, you're sadly mistaken.

And I am right as I explained.

beauty_is_pink
Jan 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM
this is kinda sad... but she is only a minor, can't someone else be responsible?
I'm sure whoever suggested or provided her with it will be punished as well.
but it was also her own choice whether to take it or not. and she decided to take it knoing the consequences. so now she has to face it.

frenchie
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:00 PM
I totally agree with the ban but I know it must be a hard time for Sesil's fans!
She's still young and will come back and learn from her mistakes.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:00 PM
Is that really possible? to stop a parent from coaching their kid, Rocketta ? ;)

I think all parent think they are looking out for the children's best interest and are very protective of them : so how do you expect ITF/WTA from banning coaches/parents for life (just being devil's advocate here) ? How do they stop them from travelling with the player ?

ah banning them from being able to step on tournament soil...no they can't stop them from coaching but if they can't go to any tournaments like Damir that time.


I'm not sure of what she was informed (but remember how she denied even going to London to face the panel in the first place and that l'Equipe was publishing this stuff cause the French dislike her!! :tape: ) ... But tests were made at RG and in Tokyo (another poster in this thread said she was there for Fed cup, but maybe I misread that post) ... I don't get the relevance of that argument with the B sample ...

If she doesn't know that she tested positive once yet, how can you say she's had two offenses? That's the point of the timing of the 2nd test and when she knew and like someone already pointed out that steroid stays in your system a long time so two positive samples within a certain amount of time could really just be one offense.

Now I don't really care one way or the other it doesn't change my opinion about a 15 year old under the care of adults testing positive for a performance enhancing drug. They are partially responsible but the adults are even more responsible. If I thought this was about smoking pot then I would say all the blame lies on her shoulders because she probably acted alone.


I don't know how Sesil is going to make money doing interviews... At the moment her reputation is tarnished... The punishment is harsh but maybe now her entourage and herself will rethink the ways with which she can succeed on tour : they have 2 years to do so !!! Plus now, the reputation of her entourage is also tarnished, especially her dad

Sesil is still young... She will rebound and maybe get rid of her entourage as soon as she is of age :shrug:

ah, you think Sports Illustrated and ESPN would not be willing to pay to hear her side? You don't think Real Sports on HBO would pay to get an exclusive interview especially if she is willing to make some scandalous accusations?

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:01 PM
I'm sure whoever suggested or provided her with it will be punished as well.
but it was also her own choice whether to take it or not. and she decided to take it knoing the consequences. so now she has to face it.

Punished how? By giving back the money? Yes, that's punishment but that's nothing. It's Sesil the athlete and she was punished and there's no way her father could be punished.

He has TWO MORE DAUGHTERS! He can make money with them, for sure!

gentenaire
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Cycling is one sport that has really been serious about drug testing. They've thrown whole teams out of the sport. So unless I see proof, I don't believe they caught Armstrong and then protected him. Becasue that's the real accusation. That the cycling federation is protecting him.

'l Equipe has never claimed that the cycling federation is protecting Armstrong. The reason Armstrong can't be charged is because there are no A samples. When you have 6 positive B samples, I think we can safely say that he tested positive. Yet legally, those results are worthless without the A samples. So it's got nothing to do with the federation protecting Lance, but all about the rules of testing.

Perhaps now, with this result about Sesil, people will realise that 'l Equipe isn't trash, that they don't publish these kind of stories unless they're absolutely certain.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:05 PM
'l Equipe has never claimed that the cycling federation is protecting Armstrong. The reason Armstrong can't be charged is because there are no A samples. When you have 6 positive B samples, I think we can safely say that he tested positive. Yet legally, those results are worthless without the A samples. So it's got nothing to do with the federation protecting Lance, but all about the rules of testing.

Perhaps now, with this result about Sesil, people will realise that 'l Equipe isn't trash, that they don't publish these kind of stories unless they're absolutely certain.


L'equipe has very good relationships with the French labs used to test the samples. That's why it's RG and not the other Grand Slams that take so much people with drugs. Everyone who used easy to detect substances is sure to be gaught and the scandal to be widely known because L'equite have "their people" in the labs and it's known for a long time.

As for Armstrong.. They never got the second sample, so it's impossible to prove anything.

gentenaire
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Now what I don't understand about this whole case is why Sesil denied appearing in front of a tribunal! It's something that is so easily checked. Why did she lie about it? Why did she say she knew nothing about a positive test result and that she hadn't been in London, hadn't met anyone from the WADA?

This girl needs some better people to advise her on what to say. First the stupid pregnancy excuse, then denying knowing anything about a positive test result...it's so easily checked. It's not very clever to lie about it because the truth will eventually come out.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:08 PM
Now what I don't understand about this whole case is why Sesil denied appearing in front of a tribunal! It's something that is so easily checked. Why did she lie about it? Why did she say she knew nothing about a positive test result and that she hadn't been in London, hadn't met anyone from the WADA?

This girl needs some better people to advise her on what to say. First the stupid pregnancy excuse, then denying knowing anything about a positive test result...it's so easily checked. It's not very clever to lie about it because the truth will eventually come out.

well of course her handlers suck look at the drug they had her taking... I mean could you at least tried to find a drug that's not so widely known? :tape:

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Now what I don't understand about this whole case is why Sesil denied appearing in front of a tribunal! It's something that is so easily checked. Why did she lie about it? Why did she say she knew nothing about a positive test result and that she hadn't been in London, hadn't met anyone from the WADA?

This girl needs some better people to advise her on what to say. First the stupid pregnancy excuse, then denying knowing anything about a positive test result...it's so easily checked. It's not very clever to lie about it because the truth will eventually come out.

She was before the ITF by the end of december, for sure. We didn't want to bring the same shit we got in this thread by talking about this in GM forum but it was known. We were waiting for the results this week and they came today.

It's too late for the better people I am affraid :sad:. Now she needs someone to help her sort everything out and help her recover from this and be as normal as she can after this.

fammmmedspin
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Anabolics don't pass through your system in a day or two like recreational drugs, and the more potent the drug, like nandrolone, the longer it stays in your system. Sesil could have stopped using the day before Roland Garros and still tested positive in July.

Which raises the question why anyone sane would take the thing given the number of people picked up on tests for it and the odds on being tested at the FO.

it makes no sense.

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:11 PM
well of course her handlers suck look at the drug they had her taking... I mean could you at least tried to find a drug that's not so widely known? :tape:

Ahem.. nandrolone, it's ridiculous. :tape:

pla
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:13 PM
Which raises the question why anyone sane would take the thing given the number of people picked up on tests for it and the odds on being tested at the FO.

it makes no sense.

And especially someone who has been tested A LOT after a nice scandal with the Frenchies the year before. I have no words to say what exactly I am thinking about the person behind the nandrolone..

Maria Croft
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Holy crap! :speakles: 2 years!?!

darrinbaker00
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Which raises the question why anyone sane would take the thing given the number of people picked up on tests for it and the odds on being tested at the FO.

it makes no sense.
That's probably why the ITF gave her the full two years: one for testing positive, and one for being stupid enough to take the most easily detectable anabolic out there.

Bounty Hunter
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:22 PM
Wow! That's too bad.

HTE
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:27 PM
So sad for Sesil and the sport :sad:
No excuse for using doping, but a two years ban for a 16yo kid is quite harsh. A year at most would have been fair in my opinion.
I really hope that criminal investigations will be launched against the people who supplied Sesil with the drugs, they are the real bad guys!

hablo
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:31 PM
ah banning them from being able to step on tournament soil...no they can't stop them from coaching but if they can't go to any tournaments like Damir that time.
So the parents/coach influence isn't really restrained much...they can keep contact over the phone and/or they can still be travelling with her (she can stay in hotels with them!!) ... Really there is not much the ITF or WTA can do to stop parent coaches from running (controlling) their childrens lives :shrug:


If she doesn't know that she tested positive once yet, how can you say she's had two offenses? That's the point of the timing of the 2nd test and when she knew and like someone already pointed out that steroid stays in your system a long time so two positive samples within a certain amount of time could really just be one offense. I don't really know how long nandrolone stays in the system.... but they must have been way over the normal amount in her system both times for the panel to mention it

Now I don't really care one way or the other it doesn't change my opinion about a 15 year old under the care of adults testing positive for a performance enhancing drug. They are partially responsible but the adults are even more responsible. If I thought this was about smoking pot then I would say all the blame lies on her shoulders because she probably acted alone.
I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree here ;) She may be fifteen but she knows the consequences of taking drugs...
(On a personal note, I still remember what happened to Ben Johnson and I was a teenager (a very young one) when the scandal broke out and realized the gravity of it all!!! ;) )
It's not like other tennis players haven't been in hot water over such things...
I think the parents are responsible (in that she may have been coerciced into taking the drug) as well, but I fail to see what the ITF/WTA can really effectively do from stopping them to have such great influence!!!! :shrug:


ah, you think Sports Illustrated and ESPN would not be willing to pay to hear her side? You don't think Real Sports on HBO would pay to get an exclusive interview especially if she is willing to make some scandalous accusations?
I guess we will have to see how the media will react to this story!! If they think it's worthy of trying to get exclusives with her or not!!

Joana
Jan 11th, 2006, 10:43 PM
Contrary to what seems to be the popular belief around here, most 16 year olds are not retarded and have a pretty good idea of what's going on around them.
I am sorry that a very promising career is being jeopardized now but the fact is that Sesil was caught using doping on two separate ocasions. ITF cannot break its own rules just because she may not have been aware of what's going on.

Rocketta
Jan 11th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Contrary to what seems to be the popular belief around here, most 16 year olds are not retarded and have a pretty good idea of what's going on around them.
I am sorry that a very promising career is being jeopardized now but the fact is that Sesil was caught using doping on two separate ocasions. ITF cannot break its own rules just because she may not have been aware of what's going on.

most 16 year olds think they they know what's going on and the consequences of their actions....history and the general actions of 16 yo say otherwise.