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View Full Version : To Seles fans, a Graf fan asks....


Billy Moonshine
Oct 29th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?

spencercarlos
Oct 29th, 2005, 04:09 PM
I love both players im fan of both...
But its like a yeah Graf did well to win those slams and was a great champion... BUT... :p

Geisha
Oct 29th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Nobody is saying that Graf didn't win those Slams. Everybody knows that she is probably the Greatest Women's Singles Tennis Player of All-Time. The fact that people like Calimero say that Graf's 22 Slams would have still happened, is bogus. Seles was the best player on Tour and she got stabbed. Thus, is produces an easy road for Graf's major titles from 1993 to 1996. When Seles returned, she wasn't the same player because she was emotionally drained.

mishar
Oct 29th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Of course Steffi was a great champion. Who could deny that? She had won the Grand Slam before Monica even came along! She overcame injuries and distractions and was a supremely tough competitor and a great athlete.

Steffi's greatness is what made Monica taking over the top for 2 years (until she was stabbed) even more impressive!

Kimdsay
Oct 29th, 2005, 04:30 PM
I grew up being a Seles fan, and I really respect and admire both of them,
still remember some amazing matches... :worship:

In my opinion, the absence of Monika does not diminish Steffi's achievements - what happened to Monika was
a terrible, terrible tragedy :sad: , but it was not Steffi's fault, and things like that (well, not really that extreme but...) do happen -
Martina Hingis had to quit playing at 23 :bigcry:, and that certainly made things a lot easier for other players...
Just recently Anna Lena had to retire when she was SO close
to beating Maria, so close to the best result of her career...

There are a lot of similar examples - big tragedies,
some unfortunate developments, unlucky situations... - it's tennis, it's sport, it's life... :shrug:

earthcrystal
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:03 PM
... I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Really? You expect no responses? LOL

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams.

Once you've conceded that part of the equation, I seriously doubt that any Seles fan would fail to agree that Graf is, indeed, a great champion. Ok, perhaps I shouldn't speak for them all, but most I know would agree with me. Heh.

She (Graf) just would not have dominated the tour if tennis had not been robbed of this great rivalry by that sick s.o.b. Perhaps it's the hardcore Graf fans that you need to address your questions to. The ones that refuse to concede the point that you did in posing your question.

Is that all you were hoping to hear in this thread?

Kart
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Hello earthcrystal :hearts:.

Kart
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?

Easily.

However, the preambling paragraph of generalisations about Seles fans you wrote before the one I've quoted makes me not want to.

V's a star
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:19 PM
No one knows what would have happend. Maybe Monica would have donminated Stef for a very long time or maybe Steffi would have changed somethings in her game to adapt.Theirs no point in aruging about somthing that never happend and when theirs 2 senierios like those 2.

earthcrystal
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:25 PM
However, the preambling paragraph of generalisations about Seles fans you wrote before the one I've quoted makes me not want to.

Yeah, I have to agree. Rhetoric and innuendo are not a good way to engage dialogue. Lucky for you that we Seles fans are as nice as our fave. :p

Hi backatcha Kart. :)

fredbdx
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?


Well it's really hard to know...but I really think that Monica would have won around 5 or 6 other GS titles (and of course most of them against Steffi who dominated the tennis in 93, 94, 95 for sure without her tragedy... so that means that they could have been really closed in term of GS Titles...

SelesFan70
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:32 PM
What happened to Monica was very unfair at the very least, and criminal in its raw form; however, what happened was not Steffi's fault. I've never faulted Steffi for what happened. I do fault the WTA tour player's board at that time for not allowing Monica's ranking to be frozen (Sabatini is the only who voted to freeze it. :kiss: ). I am 99% sure Monica would have come back sooner had her ranking been frozen, eventhough she was given the co-#1 ranking with Steffi upon her return.

Monica and Steffi were not the only players on the tour at that time. Yes, they were dominant (like Chrissie and Martina) but Steffi still had to play 7 matches in each of those Majors. No doubt Monica would have won more and Steffi would have won less Majors, but the sad truth is that Gunther Parche DID get what he wanted and Steffi ended up being the best player of her generation...and arguably one of the best ever.

I still don't think Monica gets enough credit for returning to the tour and WINNING the Canadian Open and making it to the US Open Final in 1995. :worship:

Calimero377
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:34 PM
Ok, I know this is a discussion forum and I really enjoy reading all the different opinions and bitching ( yes I know I do more than my fair share) and really it's all fun and games. However to get to my point I think that the debate over Graf's career and it's merits when the Seles stabbing is considered has got to a ridiculous point. It seems many posters are angry with Graf for her achievements and the circumstances which surround them.
So as I serious Graf fan ( I love that woman!) I ask Seles fans, ( and I expect no responses!)

Yes the stabbing helped Graf by taking out the woman who was dominating the tour. If Seles hadn't been stabbed, it's unlikely Graf would have got 22 slams. Nevertheless Graf won those slams. She would never have wanted to win them in those circumstances but she could hardly quit playing. Whether or not the absence of Seles diminishes Graf's achievements in your eyes, can you at least admit that Graf did well to win those slams and is a great champion?

Actually Graf would have won even ONE MORE slam without The Stabbing most probably. With Seles in the draw Steffi most certainly would not have had to play Lori McNeil at Wimbledon 94 in the 1st round.
And it is debatable whether the fact that Seles was AWOL in 93/95 contributed to Steffi's lack of motivation in 1994 which made her lose to Pierce at FO and to ASV at USO that year.

So let's say one or two more slams for Steffi without The Stabbing.

R&J
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM
What happened to Monica was very unfair at the very least, and criminal in its raw form; however, what happened was not Steffi's fault. I've never faulted Steffi for what happened. I do fault the WTA tour player's board at that time for not allowing Monica's ranking to be frozen (Sabatini is the only who voted to freeze it. :kiss: ). I am 99% sure Monica would have come back sooner had her ranking been frozen, eventhough she was given the co-#1 ranking with Steffi upon her return.

Monica and Steffi were not the only players on the tour at that time. Yes, they were dominant (like Chrissie and Martina) but Steffi still had to play 7 matches in each of those Majors. No doubt Monica would have won more and Steffi would have won less Majors, but the sad truth is that Gunther Parche DID get what he wanted and Steffi ended up being the best player of her generation...and arguably one of the best ever.

I still don't think Monica gets enough credit for returning to the tour and WINNING the Canadian Open and making it to the US Open Final in 1995. :worship:

Great post :wavey:

Calimero377
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Nobody is saying that Graf didn't win those Slams. Everybody knows that she is probably the Greatest Women's Singles Tennis Player of All-Time. The fact that people like Calimero say that Graf's 22 Slams would have still happened, is bogus. Seles was the best player on Tour and she got stabbed. Thus, is produces an easy road for Graf's major titles from 1993 to 1996. When Seles returned, she wasn't the same player because she was emotionally drained.


Well, she was not emotionally drained in summer 95 and winter 96 (made USO finals, won AO - although with Graf out due to injury).

No, Seles had gained weight (the genes ... ). That was not causing by The Stabbing.

Geisha
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Well, she was not emotionally drained in summer 95 and winter 96 (made USO finals, won AO - although with Graf out due to injury).

No, Seles had gained weight (the genes ... ). That was not causing by The Stabbing.


She had like, no competition en route to toronto and sudney, ao finals..

Calimero377
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:42 PM
Really? You expect no responses? LOL



Once you've conceded that part of the equation, I seriously doubt that any Seles fan would fail to agree that Graf is, indeed, a great champion. Ok, perhaps I shouldn't speak for them all, but most I know would agree with me. Heh.

She (Graf) just would not have dominated the tour if tennis had not been robbed of this great rivalry by that sick s.o.b. Perhaps it's the hardcore Graf fans that you need to address your questions to. The ones that refuse to concede the point that you did in posing your question.

Is that all you were hoping to hear in this thread?

Well, Seles most certainly would not have won her 8 slams in 90/93 without the Graf blackmail scandal that started EXACTLY in May 1990 (in the week of the German open).

BTW, Graf won 6 slams in 1995/96 when her dad was in prison and she was under investigation for tax evasion. This girl had her own share of bad luck. Maybe she was a tougher cookie than most of her opponents and of today's players ...

:worship:

Calimero377
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:44 PM
Well it's really hard to know...but I really think that Monica would have won around 5 or 6 other GS titles (and of course most of them against Steffi who dominated the tennis in 93, 94, 95 for sure without her tragedy... so that means that they could have been really closed in term of GS Titles...



Graf won 6 slams during Seles' absence.
Which of them do you think she would not have won with Seles in the draw?

spencercarlos
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Actually Graf would have won even ONE MORE slam without The Stabbing most probably. With Seles in the draw Steffi most certainly would not have had to play Lori McNeil at Wimbledon 94 in the 1st round.
And it is debatable whether the fact that Seles was AWOL in 93/95 contributed to Steffi's lack of motivation in 1994 which made her lose to Pierce at FO and to ASV at USO that year.

So let's say one or two more slams for Steffi without The Stabbing.
Calimero, now you have really blown-screw it.
Graf was overcoming by 1993 already and she was destined (as you have stated many times) to win this many Grand Slams and big events she won after the stabbing, so then tell me why she would not have been number one by Wimbledon 1994 ? :lol: Are you actually admitting that Monica would have been number one by Wimbledon 1994...wow that is a progress :p Welldone you keep surprising me every day

:wavey:

earthcrystal
Oct 29th, 2005, 05:57 PM
And Calimero makes my earlier point for me. LOL. I'm outta here.

Calimero377
Oct 29th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Calimero, now you have really blown-screw it.
Graf was overcoming by 1993 already and she was destined (as you have stated many times) to win this many Grand Slams and big events she won after the stabbing, so then tell me why she would not have been number one by Wimbledon 1994 ? :lol: Are you actually admitting that Monica would have been number one by Wimbledon 1994...wow that is a progress :p Welldone you keep surprising me every day

:wavey:


You obviously don't know how a draw is made in slams.
With Seles in the draw Manuela Maleeva would have been unseeded (actually she was #16). The unseeded players are listed in order of their rankings, their names are written on pieces of paper which are put in tiny envelopes or balls. McNeils name would have been in a different envelope/ball. Graf would not have been drawn against McNeil. She would have played someone else, would have won and marched on to win the titles (as she did in almost every year back then).

R&J
Oct 29th, 2005, 06:35 PM
And Calimero makes my earlier point for me. LOL. I'm outta here.

:lol:

bye :wavey: have a good weekend ~

leeber
Oct 29th, 2005, 07:33 PM
:worship: both great players in their own right..
only Seles was unlucky :sad:

areeka101
Oct 30th, 2005, 12:54 AM
Graf won 6 slams during Seles' absence.
Which of them do you think she would not have won with Seles in the draw?


That is exactly the point I was going to make. Seles fans make out it Steffi ended up with 22 slams to Monica's 9 because of the stabbing when it should be the other way round but the fact remains as Calimero states that Graf won 6 slams during seles absence - to my mind these are the ones that are fair game for debate and anything else then, sure, as an earlier poster said lets talk about how Graf would most likely never have faced Lori McNeil in Wimb 94 etc.


And as for that debate the broad consensus among both Graf fans, Seles fans and tennis pundits is that they would have shared the majors while Seles was out. So AT BEST i as a graf fan concede that maybe Steffi would have ended up with 19 to Monica's 12.

And for those who say her weight gain was caused by the stabbing and thus she wasn't the same player post 1993, thats a really lame excuse. To this day I don't understand why Monica didn't get back into shape but it's down to her that she didn't no-one else.

Don't get me wrong, I love Monica too but that's just how I see it.

tennis aus
Oct 30th, 2005, 01:02 AM
And as for that debate the broad consensus among both Graf fans, Seles fans and tennis pundits is that they would have shared the majors while Seles was out. So AT BEST i as a graf fan concede that maybe Steffi would have ended up with 19 to Monica's 12.


Don't get me wrong, I love Monica too but that's just how I see it.

Mate, your obsession is frightening... :tape: ...Yep, we surely know how much you really "LOVE" Monica over Graf....Cali Newbie :tape:

Steffi won 11 Slams since the Seles Tragedy.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that the only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.

Nice try... :lol:

Lemonskin.
Oct 30th, 2005, 01:05 AM
I thought Cali and Billy Moonshine were the same person.

hingis-seles
Oct 30th, 2005, 01:43 AM
You obviously don't know how a draw is made in slams.
With Seles in the draw Manuela Maleeva would have been unseeded (actually she was #16). The unseeded players are listed in order of their rankings, their names are written on pieces of paper which are put in tiny envelopes or balls. McNeils name would have been in a different envelope/ball. Graf would not have been drawn against McNeil. She would have played someone else, would have won and marched on to win the titles (as she did in almost every year back then).

More Grafanaticism with their it's revisionist history.

areeka101
Oct 30th, 2005, 03:01 AM
Mate, your obsession is frightening... :tape: ...Yep, we surely know how much you really "LOVE" Monica over Graf....Cali Newbie :tape:

Steffi won 11 Slams since the Seles Tragedy.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that the only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.

Nice try... :lol:


Sorry, but that is total BS. I accept that Monica was not the same player since being stabbed but that was due to her weight and fitness & general lack of drive not from lack of talent - she HAS to take a large part of the responsibility for that. Of course she had no bearing or influence on what happened to her in Hamburg but she did on how she came through it. And you know, she did pretty well. Please, I do like Monica, and I accept she dominiated women's tennis 1991 - early 1993. I would love to see her comeback and take out some of the trash that we have to endure these days. Regarding Steffi's success, fact is you can only say she won 6 where Monica wasn't there (and we won't even go into the obvious slump Steffi was enduring when Monica supplanted her at the top of the rankings - at a time when she STILL didn't win the majority of THEIR head-to-heads).

You're just insanely bitter at Monica being stabbed in the first place and ALL OF US being denied what was going to be a FANTASTIC rivalry but to try to belittle the achievements of Graf on every level as a result is just plain dumb. I might probabaly feel as you if the roles were reversed. But having said that for complete mischevious conjecture, I just know Graf would have been back defending Wimbldeon 6 weeks later had it happened to her. I mean, as an earlier poster said, she had her own shit to deal which can't have been easy.

Billy Moonshine
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:10 AM
Easily.

However, the preambling paragraph of generalisations about Seles fans you wrote before the one I've quoted makes me not want to.

I said 'many' fans not all of them. Do you even know what a generalisation is?

Billy Moonshine
Oct 30th, 2005, 05:11 AM
Yeah, I have to agree. Rhetoric and innuendo are not a good way to engage dialogue. Lucky for you that we Seles fans are as nice as our fave. :p

Hi backatcha Kart. :)

Yeah, youre real nice! Fake nice I reckon, the kind to make snidy comments and then put on a big smile.

Kart
Oct 30th, 2005, 12:29 PM
I said 'many' fans not all of them. Do you even know what a generalisation is?

No, tell me.

Or alternatively explain why you expected 'no responses' to this thread.

A minority of crazed fans on this board does not equal 'many' and to be honest, if you're talking about true fans then it doesn't even equal 'any.'