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View Full Version : Conservative Talk Show Host Ties Crime Rate To Aborting Black Babies


lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Only a white conservative could say something this stupid.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535204/

ampers&
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:20 PM
i heard about that.
he's such an asshole.

Scotso
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:22 PM
:help:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:22 PM
I cannot believe some of the krap people come up with these days. Such a blatant fallacy. Just because A then B does not mean that A caused B.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:23 PM
“But I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down,”

This guy needs to be arrested.

Staticbeef
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:28 PM
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Congressional Democrats blasted former Education Secretary William Bennett on Thursday for saying that aborting "every black baby in this country" would reduce the crime rate, and demanded their Republican counterparts do the same.

"This is precisely the kind of insensitive, hurtful and ignorant rhetoric that Americans have grown tired of," said Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Illinois.

Bennett, who held prominent posts in the administrations of former presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush, told a caller to his syndicated radio talk show Wednesday: "If you wanted to reduce crime, you could -- if that were your sole purpose -- you could abort every black baby in this country and your crime rate would go down.

"That would be an impossibly ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down," he said.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-California, called on President Bush to condemn the comments by Bennett, who was anti-drug chief in Bush's father's administration.

"What could possibly have possessed Secretary Bennett to say those words, especially at this time?" Pelosi asked. "What could he possibly have been thinking? This is what is so alarming about his words."

Bennett stood by his comments Thursday night.

"I was putting forward a hypothetical proposition. Put that forward. Examined it. And then said about it that it's morally reprehensible. To recommend abortion of an entire group of people in order to lower your crime rate is morally reprehensible. But this is what happens when you argue that the ends can justify the means," he told CNN.

"I'm not racist, and I'll put my record up against theirs," referring to Pelosi and other critics. "I've been a champion of the real civil rights issue of our times -- equal educational opportunities for kids."

"We've got to have candor and talk about these things while we reject wild hypotheses," Bennett said.

"I don't think people have the right to be angry, if they look at the whole thing. But if they get a selective part of my comment, I can see why they would be angry. If somebody thought I was advocating that, they ought to be angry. I would be angry."

"But that's not what I advocate."

Asked if he owed people an apology, Bennett replied, "I don't think I do. I think people who misrepresented my view owe me an apology."

Bennett served as Reagan's chairman of the National Endowment for the Humanities from 1981-1985 and secretary of education from 1985-1988. From 1989-1990, he served as "drug czar" in the administration of the elder Bush.

Rush called on "my friends, the responsible Republicans" to rebuke the former Cabinet official by backing a House resolution condemning his remarks as "outrageous racism of the most bigoted and ignorant kind."

"Where is the indignation from the GOP, as one of their prominent members talk about aborting an entire race of Americans as a way of ridding this country of crime?" asked Rush, a former Black Panther. "How ridiculous! How asinine! How insane can one be?"

He called instead for "aborting" Republican policies "which have hurt the disadvantaged, the poor, average Americans for the benefit of large corporations."

Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said he was "appalled" by Bennett's remarks.

"The Republican Party has recently taken great pains to reach out to the African-American community, and I hope that they will be swift in condemning Mr. Bennett's comments as nothing short of callous and ignorant," said Reid, D-Nevada.

And Bruce Gordon, president and CEO of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, demanded an apology from Bennett and the Salem Radio Network, which airs his radio program.

"In 2005, there is no place for the kind of racist statement made by Bennett," Gordon said in a written statement. "While the entire nation is trying to help survivors, black and white, to recover from the damage caused by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, it is unconscionable for Bennett to make such ignorant and insensitive comments."

A man who answered the phone at the network said no one would be available to comment until Friday.

Bennett's 1993 repackaging of traditional morality tales, "The Book of Virtues," became a bestseller, and Bennett became a popular lecturer on moral issues. But in 2003, stung by news reports that he had lost millions of dollars in Las Vegas and Atlantic City over the last decade, he publicly renounced gambling and vowed to stay away from the slots from then on.

He is a Fox News contributor and chairman of "Americans for Victory over Terrorism," which his Web site calls "a project dedicated to sustaining and strengthening public opinion as the war on terrorism moves forward."

Black Mamba.
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:32 PM
As I said in the AA post imagine the outrage if Al Sharpton said that if you aborted all the white babies you'd reduce racism in the country.

Kart
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:49 PM
I don't imagine saying something so idiotic adds much credibility to anyone trying to make a serious argument.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 08:58 PM
“But I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down,” said Bennett, author of “The Book of Virtues.”

He went on to call that “an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”

These types of comments infuriate me :banghead::help:

*JR*
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:19 PM
Bennett is mad because when he was a gambling addict, he'd always lose @ blackjack. :o

SelesFan70
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:28 PM
I don't agree with his statement. Aborting black babies or any race of babies doesn't reduce crime. Babies don't commit crimes.

*JR*
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:31 PM
I don't agree with his statement. Aborting black babies or any race of babies doesn't reduce crime. Babies don't commit crimes.
But thanks to loyal conservatives like yourself, he'll "land on his feet" (like dope fiend hypocrite Rush Limbaugh did after his Donovan McNabb fiasco 2 years ago).

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:39 PM
But thanks to loyal conservatives like yourself, he'll "land on his feet" (like dope fiend hypocrite Rush Limbaugh did after his Donovan McNabb fiasco 2 years ago).

Rush and Sean Hannity are already making excuses for him.

SelesFan70
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:44 PM
But thanks to loyal conservatives like yourself, he'll "land on his feet" (like dope fiend hypocrite Rush Limbaugh did after his Donovan McNabb fiasco 2 years ago).

I'm quite moderate. :ras:

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:46 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact

Helen Lawson
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:47 PM
If he was really good looking, then Helen would look deep within her heart to find forgiveness for him. But he's fat and ugly, so no dice. I didn't even know who this guy was, anyway, before this.

Infiniti2001
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:49 PM
I posted this last nite http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=195961. You can listen to him .

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:49 PM
I cannot believe some of the krap people come up with these days. Such a blatant fallacy. Just because A then B does not mean that A caused B.
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??

Infiniti2001
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:50 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact

Fuck you justeenium :fiery: What proof do u have that it's a fact??

Infiniti2001
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:52 PM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??


Typical reTHUGlican response :rolleyes: :fiery:

ampers&
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:52 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact
http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/1263/retwavey8sa.gif
I knew you would come along and make an ignorant remark like this.
It is not fact you :retard:. You could abort every white baby, every Asian baby, or any other race of babies and the overall crime rate would go down.
Eliminating an entire generation of any race would do that.
Blacks are not the sole cause of crimes in America you fucking moron. :smash:

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:54 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact


What?

If you abort all the white children, then maybe racism wouldn't exist, but you don't see any black person saying we should do something barbaric like that.:rolleyes:

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:55 PM
instead of being stupid williams fans and pulling an AL Sharpton, why don't you actually bring something to the table and explain how Bennet, or myself is incorrect.

But you can't.

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:55 PM
What?

If you abort all the white children, then maybe racism wouldn't exist, but you don't see any black person saying we should do something barbaric like that.:rolleyes:

how would aborting all white children end racism??

ampers&
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:58 PM
instead of being stupid williams fans and pulling an AL Sharpton, why don't you actually bring something to the table and explain how Bennet, or myself is incorrect.

But you can't.
So every person that disagrees with your moronic statements is immediately coined a "williams fan?"
:rolleyes:
You’re not even worth the time or effort.
Go get back on your short yellow bus.:retard:

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:58 PM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??


That's not all he said.

He said is was morally reprehensable, but the crime rate would still go down.


He was still floating the theory even though he claims that he thought it was morally wrong. BTW, he was basing it on what he saw and heard about what was going on in New Orleans, most of which has now been proven to be false.

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:58 PM
http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/1263/retwavey8sa.gif
I knew you would come along and make an ignorant remark like this.
It is not fact you :retard:. You could abort every white baby, every Asian baby, or any other race of babies and the overall crime rate would go down.
Eliminating an entire generation of any race would do that.
:

the crime rate in proportion to population would not go down in those examples.

Blacks are not the sole cause of crimes in America you fucking moron. :smash
I never said they were. Any more strawmen?

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 09:59 PM
how would aborting all white children end racism??


Because it is a statistical fact that most racists are white. In America that is true.

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:01 PM
So every person that disagrees with your moronic statements is immediately coined a "williams fan?"
:rolleyes:
You’re not even worth the time or effort.
Go get back on your short yellow bus.:retard:

No, I was talking to you and Infiniti, both of you happen to be Williams fans.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:01 PM
Because it is a statistical fact that most racists are white. In America that is true.
a tad extreme with the sarcasm! :lol:

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:02 PM
What are you people saying here. that if the obvious is insensitive, then you can't state the obvious??

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Because it is a statistical fact that most racists are white. In America that is true.
A. show me your source.
B. Do you mean proportionately more racists? If not, considering how many more whites there are than of other races, logically most racists in the US would be white.
C. Give me your personal definition of racism. Is it along the lines of supremacy or prejudice or something else?

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:05 PM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??

that is such crap :rolleyes:
it's just unbelievable that people actually think this way!!!!
It's bad enough that I have been followed in stores because of my color :help:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:05 PM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??

I didnt say that. But he was implying that there was a causal connection between the crime rate and black people. :tape: there is nothing wrong with being european.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I didnt say that. But he was implying that there was a causal connection between the crime rate and black people. :tape: there is nothing wrong with being european.

no worries!!! you got it right ;)

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:09 PM
I didnt say that. But he was implying that there was a causal connection between the crime rate and black people. :tape: there is nothing wrong with being european.

there is a connection between them.

harloo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:10 PM
I'm quite moderate. :ras:

:haha: :haha: You joking right?

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:10 PM
A. show me your source.
B. Do you mean proportionately more racists? If not, considering how many more whites there are than of other races, logically most racists in the US would be white.
C. Give me your personal definition of racism. Is it along the lines of supremacy or prejudice or something else?


A. Check any Gallup poll on racism and whites
B. Acutal numbers and percentages
C. Racism - An economic and social structure set up by one race of people to prevent the advancement of another race of people.

Pengwin
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:10 PM
that is such crap :rolleyes:
it's just unbelievable that people actually think this way!!!!
It's bad enough that I have been followed in stores because of my color :help:

Il me fait peur que meme ici sur Internet ou tout est egal il y a toujours le racisme :help:

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:11 PM
there is a connection between them.


What is the connection between crime and black people.

(This should be good).

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:11 PM
there is a connection between them.

Show evidence for it then.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:12 PM
What is the connection between crime and black people.

(This should be good).

Indeed :rolleyes:

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:12 PM
Il me fait peur que meme ici sur Internet ou tout est egal il y a toujours le racisme :help:
je partage ta peur... ça me donne des frissons une telle manifestation d'ignorance de nos jour, en plus!!! :o:tape:

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Show evidence for it then.
can't wait to see this evidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :tape:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:15 PM
can't wait to see this evidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :tape:

All black people are criminals therefore if you stop them from being born there will be less crime :p

Note: that was sarcastic. I did not mean it before anyone calls me racist.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:20 PM
All black people are criminals therefore if you stop them from being born there will be less crime :p

Note: that was sarcastic. I did not mean it before anyone calls me racist.
yup. I got the sarcasm!!! but there are some people who actually believe that :o:help: I came accross a web site saying just as much!! it made me sick to my stomach!! I had to stop myself from reading such filth and gratuitous hate :p
democracy, freedom, equal rights for all, my ass!!!!!!! :mad:

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:20 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact
What's an undeniable fact, you idiot?

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:22 PM
yup. I got the sarcasm!!! but there are some people who actually believe that :o:help: I came accross a web site saying just as much!! it made me sick to my stomach!! I had to stop myself from reading such filth and gratuitous hate :p
democracy, freedom, equal rights for all, my ass!!!!!!! :mad:

I dont know why people think this way :rolleyes: I havent come across any racism in everyday life thus far. Hopefully I never will.

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:23 PM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??
Then all you have to do is kill all the white, Hispanic and Asian babies, and you won't have any crime at all. :yeah: :rolleyes: Idiot.

Pengwin
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:23 PM
I dont know why people think this way :rolleyes: I havent come across any racism in everyday life thus far. Hopefully I never will.

Umm where do you live in Britain :eek:?

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:25 PM
instead of being stupid williams fans and pulling an AL Sharpton, why don't you actually bring something to the table and explain how Bennet, or myself is incorrect.

But you can't.
Instead of being just plain stupid and pulling a drug addicted Rush Limbaugh, why don't you prove what you say is a fact?

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:26 PM
Umm where do you live in Britain :eek:?

Ive just moved to Birmingham. Although I lived most of my life in Dorset. One of the reasons I might not have encountered racism is because Dorset isnt really multi cultural. What i mean by not experience rascism is not witnessing it first hand but I have heard from other people about their experiences.

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:28 PM
there is a connection between them.
Show the connection with facts.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:28 PM
I dont know why people think this way :rolleyes: I havent come across any racism in everyday life thus far. Hopefully I never will.
I have but in subtle ways... it's out there, trust me :mad:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:30 PM
I have but in subtle ways... it's out there, trust me :mad:

I dont doubt that it exists. I know some lovely african, jamaican and muslim people i do not see why people would think this of them.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:31 PM
I dont doubt that it exists. I know some lovely african, jamaican and muslim people i do not see why people would think this of them.
I don't get it myself :scratch:
I think that poster needs to come back to shed some light on this matter :o

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:33 PM
I don't get it myself :scratch:
I think that poster needs to come back to shed some light on this matter :o

I doubt they will now. Anyway, they are a Harry Potter fan maybe they live in a dream world.

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:34 PM
Instead of being just plain stupid and pulling a drug addicted Rush Limbaugh, why don't you prove what you say is a fact?

Maybe he/she isn't here because he is getting the cabbage for Rush to get his drugs.

flyingmachine
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:43 PM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact
:retard: You racist idiot. :mad:

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:45 PM
A. Check any Gallup poll on racism and whites
B. Acutal numbers and percentages
C. Racism - An economic and social structure set up by one race of people to prevent the advancement of another race of people.
A. I just googled for it and couldn't find anything. could you give me a link?

C. are you serious? :retard:

lizchris
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:46 PM
A. I just googled for it and couldn't find anything. could you give me a link?

C. are you serious? :retard:



Gallup.org

flyingmachine
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Ive just moved to Birmingham. Although I lived most of my life in Dorset. One of the reasons I might not have encountered racism is because Dorset isnt really multi cultural. What i mean by not experience rascism is not witnessing it first hand but I have heard from other people about their experiences.
You must be a very lucky person.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:48 PM
A. I just googled for it and couldn't find anything. could you give me a link?

C. are you serious? :retard:

That is not a counter-argument :p

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:50 PM
What is the connection between crime and black people.

(This should be good).
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/race205.htm

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:50 PM
You must be a very lucky person.

Ok I have heard my mother utter a slang word for a Pakistani. Consequently I gave her a lecture on how it was a rascist word. I dont think she has said it since :)

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:51 PM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/race205.htm

You can do better than that. Those are statistics on victims not convicts.

Pengwin
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Racism = the belief that one race is inherently superior to another for genetic as opposed to political reasons.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:55 PM
You can do better than that. Those are statistics on victims not convicts.
maybe he could look into how many of the convicted get a fair trial as well (you're only as good as your lawyer ; scary how many convicted may be getting off death row with DNA testing as well... but I'm probably a little off topic! )

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:57 PM
maybe he could look into how many of the convicted get a fair trial as well (you're only as good as your lawyer ; scary how many convicted are getting off death row with DNA testing as well... but I'm probably a little off topic! )

Justice in America :tape: dont think so.

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:59 PM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/race205.htm
:haha: :haha: :haha:

deja_entendu
Sep 30th, 2005, 10:59 PM
:dance: Good riddance REPUBLICAN PARTY, it's been fun to watch their demise this last month :dance:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:00 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:

My sentiments exactly.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:01 PM
you know... he is very right....

If you could abort every black baby.. it would go down...

If you could abort also every hispanic baby... it would go down....

If you could abourt also every white baby... it would go down...

If you could abort every baby... it would go down..

So there is nothing so clever in his commentary consdiering that the forced extintion of a race would decrease the population of the same as well as any demographic number concerning the same race. Just the racism in it is what makes it so negative.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:02 PM
you know... he is very right....

If you could abort every black baby.. it would go down...

If you could abort also every hispnaic baby... it would go down....

If you could abort every baby... it would go down..

So there is nothing so clever in his commentary consdiering that the forced extintion of a race would decrease the population of the same as well as any demographic number concerning the same race. Just the racism in it is what makes it so negative.

I think thats the point most people are trying to make. There are a lot of rascist implications in what he said.

ampers&
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:02 PM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/race205.htm
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9991/wtf6uv.gif
:haha:..try again, buddy... http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/1263/retwavey8sa.gif

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:07 PM
Show evidence for it then.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/02/murder.rate/

The report also found that from 1976 to 1997, 85 percent of white murder victims were killed by whites and 94 percent of black victims were killed by blacks.

During the same period, blacks were seven times more likely than whites to be homicide victims and eight times more likely than whites to commit homicides.

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:09 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:

I underestimated your ignorance. I assumed you knew that most black victims were victimized by blacks.

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:11 PM
http://www.cnn.com/US/9901/02/murder.rate/
So, now you're saying that homicide is the only crime. :rolleyes:

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:11 PM
you know... he is very right....

If you could abort every black baby.. it would go down...

If you could abort also every hispanic baby... it would go down....

If you could abourt also every white baby... it would go down...

If you could abort every baby... it would go down..

So there is nothing so clever in his commentary consdiering that the forced extintion of a race would decrease the population of the same as well as any demographic number concerning the same race. Just the racism in it is what makes it so negative.
:rolleyes:

the point is that if you aborted every black baby the crime rate would decrease.

if you aborted every white baby the total number of crimes would decrease, but the crime rate would increase.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:11 PM
I underestimated your ignorance. I assumed you knew that most black victims were victimized by blacks.

That is statistics for one crime: murder. We are talking about crime in general. Furthermore just because black people maybe more likely to be victimised by other black people doesnt mean that the crime levels in America are as a result of black people.

Denise4925
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:12 PM
I underestimated your ignorance. I assumed you knew that most black victims were victimized by blacks.
I never underestimate your ignorance. :lol: What does black on black or white on white victimization have to do with the overall crime rate in America and whether that rate will go down significantly if all blacks babies were killed? Wouldn't it also go down if all white babies were killed?

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:16 PM
:rolleyes:

the point is that if you aborted every black baby the crime rate would decrease.

if you aborted every white baby the total number of crimes would decrease, but the crime rate would increase.

So if I understand your point... what Bennett means is that killing a balck baby would make crime rate decrease. But it would increase crime rate if you kill white babies it would be crime itself the fact that we are killing those babies.

Black Mamba.
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:19 PM
how would aborting all white children end racism??

In 2003, of the 8,715 hate crime cases 3,670 were committed by White people.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:20 PM
So if I understand your point... what Bennett means is that killing a balck baby would make crime rate decrease. But it would increase crime rate if you kill white babies it would be crime itself the fact that we are killing those babies.

I think the point that is being made here is that if killed black babies crime rates would fall because black people are more criminal that white people. Whereas, if you kill white babies although the population will be less there wont be a decrease in crime because white people dont commit crime like black people do. I think that is what he is saying, however, correct me if im wrong.

Staticbeef
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:20 PM
je partage ta peur... ça me donne des frissons une telle manifestation d'ignorance de nos jour, en plus!!! :o:tape:

Il est beaucoup plus mauvais, quand vous êtes noir et devez grandir
dans un pays qui prétend ne pas être raciste. C'est la raison que
bon nombre d'entre nous sont amers

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:23 PM
I never underestimate your ignorance. :lol: What does black on black or white on white victimization have to do with the overall crime rate in America and whether that rate will go down significantly if all blacks babies were killed? Wouldn't it also go down if all white babies were killed?
your own personal racism has prevented you from advancing beyond the intelligence of an eight year old.

the rate would not go down in that scenario, i have already explained why.

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:25 PM
your own personal racism has prevented you from advancing beyond the intelligence of an eight year old.

the rate would not go down in that scenario, i have already explained why.

Rascism against rascists? I dont think so. Personal insults do not win you arguments. To be fair thus far you have yet to show evidence to back up your claim which is why you haven't explained it to a satisfactory level.

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:26 PM
In 2003, of the 8,715 hate crime cases 3,670 were committed by White people.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03hc.pdf
thank you for supporting my point

Justeenium
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:27 PM
Rascism against rascists? I dont think so. Personal insults do not win you arguments. To be fair thus far you have yet to show evidence to back up your claim which is why you haven't explained it to a satisfactory level.

read the thread again and if you still don't get it just put a dunce hat on.

hablo
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:32 PM
Il est beaucoup plus mauvais, quand vous êtes noir et devez grandir
dans un pays qui prétend ne pas être raciste. C'est la raison que
bon nombre d'entre nous sont amers

je suis noire aussi ;) je suis complètement d'accord!!
ce posteur ne se rend même pas compte des inégalités inhérentes au sein même de la justice américaine (et dans d'autres pays) : au vu de ce fait, ses statiques ne prouvent rien du tout... :tape:

marmite1
Sep 30th, 2005, 11:34 PM
read the thread again and if you still don't get it just put a dunce hat on.

I get what you are saying but its utter tripe. It does not support your claim at all. Thus far youve given us a page of statistics about victims. Then you gave statistics on the victims of homicides. Now none of this proves anything about the link between black people and crime rates.

Kart
Oct 1st, 2005, 12:01 AM
it isn't rocket science you eurotard.

If the black crime rate is signficantly higher than the crime rate of the general population, than if you prevent blacks from procreating obviously the overall crime rate will decrease given time.

And he also said right after that it was still a "horrible" thing to do.
so why the hell is everyone getting upset??

:spit: You're hilarious.

Of course, if you really don't know why everyone is getting upset you've completely missed the point.

It's not rocket science either and I'll explain it to you if you can show any evidence of understanding basic science :).

tennisbum79
Oct 1st, 2005, 12:28 AM
While we are it, why don't we…

Abort all Italian babies to bring down Italian on Italian crime rate, national crime rate, and save money in investigation, witness protection programs, police corruption
Abort all Irish babies to bring down drunk driving crime rate and accidents
Abort all German babies to prevent another holocaust in the future
And on and on...
And yeah, please these are just intellectual hypothesis.
It would be morally reprehensible to actually carry them out as concrete actions.

These right wing talkshows should just stick to Creationism, Intelligent Design,
divine nature of George Bush presidency, and other outlandish topics.

lizchris
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:16 AM
BTW, you are more likely to be victimized by crime by a member of your own race, regardless of whether the person is black, white, Hispance or Asian.

Denise4925
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:23 AM
your own personal racism has prevented you from advancing beyond the intelligence of an eight year old.

the rate would not go down in that scenario, i have already explained why.
My racism??? Whatever. I think your racism has prevented you from gaining any intelligence, period. Because it was obviously ingrained in you from birth. The only reason you are giving that the rate would not go down is that you feel that black people are inherently criminal by nature, which is a crock of shit. It has no basis in fact and you can't present any factual evidence that sustains your claims.

RunDown
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:37 AM
The author of 'Freakonomics', which Bill Bennett used to justify his comments about aborting black babies and reducing crime has denounced Bennett's comments as NOT justified by fact. He also says that his book points out that crime has more to do with economic status than race....

"Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument that John Donohue and I have made in academic papers and that Dubner and I discuss in Freakonomics. It is true that, on average, crime involvement in the U.S. is higher among blacks than whites. Importantly, however, once you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide. (The homicide gap is partly explained by crack markets). In other words, for most crimes a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement. Empirically, what matters is the fact that abortions are disproportionately used on unwanted pregnancies, and disproportionately by teenage women and single women....."

He then goes on to say....

"When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life. This is an important fact to remember. One in four pregnancies ends in abortion and this has been true for 30 years in the U.S. But the impact of abortion on the overall birth rate has been quite small."

So those black babies that were aborted by poor, teenaged, un-wed mothers, were more than likely later replaced (please excuse my lack of better words) by those women later in life....and the overall crime rate in the US is still lower compared to 20-30 years ago.


http://www.freakonomics.com/blog.php

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:39 AM
I find it funny that racism can stare someone straight in the eye, but folks can justify it or switch the focus. There is a bunch of folks in America that would believe aliens walk among us before they believe racism is a problem. Fox News is justifying what this guy is saying by saying the only reason Dems and Libs are mad is because what the guy said will allow Blacks to think about abortion and stop supporting democrats that support abortion. How dumb do these idiots think we are? If they look at the numbers a majority of Blacks are already against abortion.

Justeenium
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:49 AM
I find it funny that racism can stare someone straight in the eye, but folks can justify it or switch the focus. There is a bunch of folks in America that would believe aliens walk among us before they believe racism is a problem. Fox News is justifying what this guy is saying by saying the only reason Dems and Libs are mad is because what the guy said will allow Blacks to think about abortion and stop supporting democrats that support abortion. How dumb do these idiots think we are? If they look at the numbers a majority of Blacks are already against abortion.

do you find it funny how many blacks are denying facts in this thread just because the facts are not favorable to blacks?

Justeenium
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:53 AM
:spit: You're hilarious.

Of course, if you really don't know why everyone is getting upset you've completely missed the point.

It's not rocket science either and I'll explain it to you if you can show any evidence of understanding basic science :).
go ahead

Kart
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:00 AM
Is there any point in trying ?

Infiniti2001
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:00 AM
Justeenium = http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1245/sign00816zx.gif just like DeLay, Frist and the other rethuglicans who will soon go down :lol: :tape:

RunDown
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:02 AM
go ahead


Well Justeenium, the fact is that crime is more closely linked to poverty than race. If Mr. Bennett would've link poverty, abortion, and crime, he would have probably been more justified (though the comment would have still been outrageous). He instead chose to link Blacks, abortion, and crime, and his comment came off as outrageous AND racist. You agreeing with him comes off the same way.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:02 AM
The author of 'Freakonomics', which Bill Bennett used to justify his comments about aborting black babies and reducing crime has denounced Bennett's comments as NOT justified by fact. He also says that his book points out that crime has more to do with economic status than race....

"Race is not an important part of the abortion-crime argument that John Donohue and I have made in academic papers and that Dubner and I discuss in Freakonomics. It is true that, on average, crime involvement in the U.S. is higher among blacks than whites. Importantly, however, once you control for income, the likelihood of growing up in a female-headed household, having a teenage mother, and how urban the environment is, the importance of race disappears for all crimes except homicide. (The homicide gap is partly explained by crack markets). In other words, for most crimes a white person and a black person who grow up next door to each other with similar incomes and the same family structure would be predicted to have the same crime involvement. Empirically, what matters is the fact that abortions are disproportionately used on unwanted pregnancies, and disproportionately by teenage women and single women....."

He then goes on to say....

"When a woman gets an abortion, for the most part it is not changing the total number of children she has; rather, it is shifting the timing so those births come later in life. This is an important fact to remember. One in four pregnancies ends in abortion and this has been true for 30 years in the U.S. But the impact of abortion on the overall birth rate has been quite small."

So those black babies that were aborted by poor, teenaged, un-wed mothers, were more than likely later replaced (please excuse my lack of better words) by those women later in life....and the overall crime rate in the US is still lower compared to 20-30 years ago.


http://www.freakonomics.com/blog.php
interesting...
thanks for posting this :yeah:

Justeenium
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:08 AM
before anyone brings up the poverty excuse

Poverty Rates:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104520.html

Non-Hispanic White: 14,396,905 (7.4%)
Non-Hispanic Black: 7,706,158 (22.7%)

and here's the data with the races of the offenders and victims.
2000 U.S.D.O.J Crime Rates (offenders):
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
All Homicides:
White: 46.4%
Black: 51.5%

Sex offenders:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/soo.txt
Rape:
White: 52.2%
Black: 43.7%

game over

*JR*
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:15 AM
Thank you, RunDown! (I usually wind up making those points that it basically all boils down to socio-economic factors, but wanted 2C if someone else just MIGHT this time. I'm pleased that somebody did). So once again *broken record* racial minorities are more likely 2B employed @ poverty level wages, doing the drudge work that society as we know it could not function without.

I'm all for individual economic opportunity for all ppl to advance, but until "smart robots" are doing these jobs in a few decades, ppl must, and a just society owes them a decent living in return. So that one isn't just talking about their kids escaping the cycle of poverty, but society will "honor the social contract", and pay the price to abolish the "cycle of poverty".

Then ppl who think like Justeenium and Bill Bennett will find that blacks who aren't consigned to "the ghetto" (an obscene word in a wealthy country in the year 2005, think about that point) aren't inherently different from white kids raised in similar environments. Using the word "class" may make one sound like a "Commie" or something; avoiding it guarantees continuation of the "2 Americas" that is a national disgrace.

tennisbum79
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:15 AM
I listened to a local right wing station today and the host was talking about this. Although he is himself a populist racist, he was not defending Bennet. He thought the mentioning of black babies was racist, although he does not think that Bennet himself is racist, which seems to be the obligatory disclaimer by many whites.

It keeps them in the good grace of their community. They hate being called racist.
Back to the radio show. His callers, most whom are whites, were adamant that not only was he not defending the guy, worse he was also attacking him by accusing of racism.

In their book he (the host) is a traitor (they did not say to what, but you get the picture).
They see this in a very visceral way: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. A caller actually said that and promised retribution to the host.

They argue that there is nothing wrong with what Bennet said, maybe he should not have aid on the air. But it is ok to say it (i.e. believe it) because blacks do commit most of the crimes. Out of the window went their anti-abortion stand they hold so dear as fundamental belief. This means the overpowering racist feelings dwarf their fundamental beliefs of protecting babies at any cost.
Some would go through the same convoluted, pseudo intellectual argumentation Bennet has perfected in the short time he has been defending himself.
It is hard to believe that Bennet was once responsible for educating ALL the children of the country, including the black ones, the ones he is now suggesting to abort today.

But again, soon after he left the education department, he decided to lead the fight to abolish it.
It is sad that the country is always so divided on matters of race; even in cases where the facts are irrefutable. Sometimes it takes whites from abroad to remind American whites that they have blinders on.

*JR*
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:28 AM
before anyone brings up the poverty excuse

Poverty Rates:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104520.html

Non-Hispanic White: 14,396,905 (7.4%)
Non-Hispanic Black: 7,706,158 (22.7%)

and here's the data with the races of the offenders and victims.
2000 U.S.D.O.J Crime Rates (offenders):
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
All Homicides:
White: 46.4%
Black: 51.5%

Sex offenders:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/soo.txt
Rape:
White: 52.2%
Black: 43.7%

game over
Old saying:

"There are 3 types of liars: liars, damned liars, and statistics". Specifically, your first stat shows that blacks are 3 times as likely 2B brought up in poverty. Thus, one reaches what a physicist might call "critical mass", given how segregated where Americans live still often is.

Its a lot easier for the rest of the "white community" 2C that the far smaller % of kids in poverty are given "critical support" than for the black community to do so, comparing 7.4% vs. 22.7%. You're right, game ova!

tennisbum79
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:38 AM
before anyone brings up the poverty excuse

Poverty Rates:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104520.html

Non-Hispanic White: 14,396,905 (7.4%)
Non-Hispanic Black: 7,706,158 (22.7%)

and here's the data with the races of the offenders and victims.
2000 U.S.D.O.J Crime Rates (offenders):
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
All Homicides:
White: 46.4%
Black: 51.5%

Sex offenders:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/soo.txt
Rape:
White: 52.2%
Black: 43.7%

game over

Will all due respect, all these stats you are scrambling to get, is it to
justify and/or support the abortion of black babies as stated by Bill Bennet?

Because, when all is said and done, that is what is at the center of this thread?

RunDown
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:41 AM
Old saying:

"There are 3 types of liars: liars, damned liars, and statistics". Specifically, your first stat shows that blacks are 3 times as likely 2B brought up in poverty. Thus, one reaches what a physicist might call "critical mass", given how segregated where Americans live still often is.

Its a lot easier for the rest of the "white community" 2C that the far smaller % of kids in poverty are given "critical support" than for the black community to do so, comparing 7.4% vs. 22.7%. You're right, game ova!

Exactly, Justeenium will probably never admit it, but there is a difference in Black poverty (where poor blacks reside and are treated), and White poverty (where poor whites reside and are treated), and the psychological effects that follow.

I would also like to point out that Justeenium listed two of many crimes ("White-collar" crimes, drug-related crimes, crimes to property, etc) that can be committed. And again, like the author Bill Bennett used to justify his remarks said, if you place a black person and a white person in similar income brackets and the same family structure they have about the same chance of committing a crime.

Also, since most victims of black criminals are other black people, the crime rate probably would not go down if all black babies were aborted, since you would be killing the criminals as well as the victims.

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:44 AM
Only a white conservative could say something this stupid.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535204/

People really need to wake up and pay attention to these Republican views.

Similar to the Pro football player who if fighting a Conservative Football team owner against having his DNA reviewed for possible genetic physical "abnormailites" before offering him a lucrative contract.

These concepts all support human/social engineering, which Nazi'ism attempted to promote. Its just another reason why our political system needs to be more moderate and more evenly divided, otherwise the extremist views of one party could trample its citizens.

The persistent invasion of our privacy will only be a tool used for extremist government and big business to control individuals rights and broaden their power over average citizens.

This country is slowly slipping down a slope which is stripping our personal freedoms. Wake up!

Ceze
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:55 AM
Well Justeenium, the fact is that crime is more closely linked to poverty than race. If Mr. Bennett would've link poverty, abortion, and crime, he would have probably been more justified (though the comment would have still been outrageous). He instead chose to link Blacks, abortion, and crime, and his comment came off as outrageous AND racist. You agreeing with him comes off the same way.:worship: you should post more often RunDown :yeah: (http://www.wtaworld.com/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=290#)

SelesFan70
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:56 AM
:haha: :haha: You joking right?

No, I'm completely serious. :D

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:04 AM
What a stupid son-of-a-bitch.

Everyone knows that the biggest criminals are in corporate boardrooms and in Washington, D.C. Include the lobbyists as well.

The problem being that an impoverished man stealing food for his family can get years in prison, while a corporate CEO that stoled millions from employee's retirement only gets a fraction of that sentence, if not probation.

Justeenium
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:08 AM
Old saying:

"There are 3 types of liars: liars, damned liars, and statistics". Specifically, your first stat shows that blacks are 3 times as likely 2B brought up in poverty. Thus, one reaches what a physicist might call "critical mass", given how segregated where Americans live still often is.

Its a lot easier for the rest of the "white community" 2C that the far smaller % of kids in poverty are given "critical support" than for the black community to do so, comparing 7.4% vs. 22.7%. You're right, game ova!
but the stats also show that there are almost twice as many whites in poverty as blacks.

The rates of violent crime don't follow the same ratio. Poverty may narrow the gap, but the gap is still there.

Kart
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:11 AM
game over

Well you got that much correct.

Of course, if you learn how to argue in a way that makes people take you seriously perhaps next time you could be a winner instead of an object of well deserved ridicule and abuse.

That was the point, seemingly lost on you and Mr Bennet.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:16 AM
What a stupid son-of-a-bitch.

Everyone knows that the biggest criminals are in corporate boardrooms and in Washington, D.C. Include the lobbyists as well.

The problem being that an impoverished man stealing food for his family can get years in prison, while a corporate CEO that stoled millions from employee's retirement only gets a fraction of that sentence, if not probation.
unfortunately, I've got no more goodreps to give !! damn it !!:mad::sad:

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:17 AM
The stupidity fairy has been at it again I see. :)

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:18 AM
but the stats also show that there are almost twice as many whites in poverty as blacks.

The rates of violent crime don't follow the same ratio. Poverty may narrow the gap, but the gap is still there.

What you fail to acknowledge is the billions of dollars every year stolen from taxpayers and given away as corporate welfare, urged by corporate lobbyists. Think carefully. Historically, the last great democracy that failed gave away taxpayer treasury to its "special interests" at the time.

And while crime of the improverished can be problematic, its nothing compared to the trillions of dollars stolen from taxpayers and given to greedy corporate gurus who steal from their companies, which indirectly steal from the American taxpayer.

Now, who should have been aborted to reduce crime????

Mother_Marjorie
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:26 AM
I don't understand why anyone is giving him a break.

He's a fucking facist racist who is promoting the old guard of Nazi'ism, which is murdering a supposed "inferior" race for the supposed "greater good" of spreading an ideology.

What's next???? Promoting the abortions of people who have green eyes because green-eyed people have a tendancy of stealing loaves of bread???

What a fucking moran.

Cariaoke
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:29 AM
Wow.

The ownage is embarrassing at this point. :o

Justeenium
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:32 AM
Well you got that much correct.

Of course, if you learn how to argue in a way that makes people take you seriously perhaps next time you could be a winner instead of an object of well deserved ridicule and abuse.

That was the point, seemingly lost on you and Mr Bennet.
translation: you can't refute anything I've said so rather than try I'm just going to ad hom you.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:33 AM
Wow.

The ownage is embarrassing at this point. :o

as it should be!!! at least that bit is reassuring!!! :angel:

Cariaoke
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:35 AM
^ very true. :yeah:

vettipooh
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:38 AM
what he said was obviously insensitive but it is an undeniable fact
And you should have been swallowed!!!:lol: that would have been one less retard in the world.:lol:

Cariaoke
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:40 AM
but wouldn't he have irritated the stomach... me thinks spat on the sheets would have been better.

better yet, shot out in a tissue.

spokenword73
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:41 AM
What you fail to acknowledge is the billions of dollars every year stolen from taxpayers and given away as corporate welfare, urged by corporate lobbyists. Think carefully. Historically, the last great democracy that failed gave away taxpayer treasury to its "special interests" at the time.

And while crime of the improverished can be problematic, its nothing compared to the trillions of dollars stolen from taxpayers and given to greedy corporate gurus who steal from their companies, which indirectly steal from the American taxpayer.

Now, who should have been aborted to reduce crime????
:worship:

I totally agree. The criminal justice system rarely goes after corporate criminals or middle class surbanites who lie, cheat and steal. Much easier to go after so-called street crime.

Stamp Paid
Oct 1st, 2005, 04:20 AM
but wouldn't he have irritated the stomach... me thinks spat on the sheets would have been better.

better yet, shot out in a tissue.

ROTFLMFAO

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Oct 1st, 2005, 08:36 AM
I don't see what justineeium is saying wrong...

Stamp Paid
Oct 1st, 2005, 08:39 AM
I don't see what justineeium is saying wrong...

Logically, it may be right.

But it is a racist and morally reprehensible thing to say. Thats what is "wrong" about it.

!!!--Duiz™--!!!
Oct 1st, 2005, 08:50 AM
Logically, it may be right.

But it is a racist and morally reprehensible thing to say. Thats what is "wrong" about it.

I still don't see what is morally reprehensible... he is just saying that even though the crime rate would go down in a higher rate.

Such thing may be a fact... and despite there is many more sane and less catastrophical ways to repair part of social problems concerning all the races, I see he still understand it is a horrible hting to say.

Stamp Paid
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:34 AM
I still don't see what is morally reprehensible... he is just saying that even though the crime rate would go down in a higher rate.

Such thing may be a fact... and despite there is many more sane and less catastrophical ways to repair part of social problems concerning all the races, I see he still understand it is a horrible hting to say.

The idea of aborting an entire generation of a race of children is not morally reprehensible?!!!!!!?!

And justeenium never acknowledged that it was a horrible thing to say.

middy
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:41 AM
What is the world coming to, it feels like we are taking steps back into history instead of learning from it and move forward. Kill a few for the survival of masses :rolleyes:

I am glad I live in a country where politicians who say anything remotely offensive are stomped to the ground and not excused by a bunch of morons.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:46 AM
do you find it funny how many blacks are denying facts in this thread just because the facts are not favorable to blacks?

Im not black

middy
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:56 AM
Im not black

:lol: Neither am I

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:58 AM
I don't see what justineeium is saying wrong...

There is a lot wrong with what he is saying. Basically he is saying that Bennett is right in the fact that if we abort Black babies then the crime rate will be reduced. But, it doesn’t stop there. They also went on to say that if white babies were aborted it would not have the same effect. They said the crime rate would not go down. From this you can conclude that their opinion is that Black people are to blame for crime. I find the racist implications in this type of statement disgusting, but that’s not even the main problem. Thus far Justineeium has not even shown any sort of argument to support his claim. They have given us statistics for: murder victims, victims of crime and poverty. They then go on to just give a link to the statistics with not indication of how the statistics support their argument. None of those statistics show any relation between how if the number of white people were reduced there wouldn't be less crime, whereas if the number of black people were reduced there would be less crime. Thus the game is no yet over.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Oct 1st, 2005, 11:44 AM
Bill Bennett has set himself up for a (partially deserved) media flogging. Using abortion to make a point about the relationship between race & crime was truly idiotic.

However, no one is suggesting that the US should start aborting black babies, the mere suggestion is utterly ludicrous.

But, it is a fact that, for whatever reason, blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty.

I don't know why this is, but it is not racist to point out the statistics.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 12:02 PM
Bill Bennett has set himself up for a (partially deserved) media flogging. Using abortion to make a point about the relationship between race & crime was truly idiotic.

However, no one is suggesting that the US should start aborting black babies, the mere suggestion is utterly ludicrous.

But, it is a fact that, for whatever reason, blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty.

I don't know why this is, but it is not racist to point out the statistics.

Obviously showing statistics is not a racist thing to, but from what i can tell his statement had racist connotations. Also thus far no one has shown any statistics to show that black people commit more crimes than caucasians. Until there is evidence no one has a reason to accept it as the truth.

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 12:23 PM
People don't like to be generalized. In America it is and has always been ok to generalize Blacks as criminals, violent, angry, etc. I for one could care less what this guy said but the thing I'm angry about is how people can look at one race and generalize them based off of the actions of a few while at the same time argue for individuality when discussing the faults of their own race. If we wanted to we could bring up stats and solid examples showing that racism would decline significantly if we aborted all the white babies in America, but just like most stats they don't tell the entire picture.

tennisbum79
Oct 1st, 2005, 12:57 PM
People don't like to be generalized. In America it is and has always been ok to generalize Blacks as criminals, violent, angry, etc. I for one could care less what this guy said but the thing I'm angry about is how people can look at one race and generalize them based off of the actions of a few while at the same time argue for individuality when discussing the faults of their own race. If we wanted to we could bring up stats and solid examples showing that racism would decline significantly if we aborted all the white babies in America, but just like most stats they don't tell the entire picture.

I posted this before, but this a perfect place to revisit it

While we are it, why don't we…

Abort all Italian babies to bring down Italian on Italian crime rate, national crime rate, and save money in investigation, witness protection programs, police corruption
Abort all Irish babies to bring down drunk driving crime rate and accidents. This will also reduce, if not prevent, clergy sexual abuse in the catholic church
Abort all German babies to prevent another holocaust in the future
And on and on...
And yeah, please these are merely intellectual hypothesis that are worth discussing as an academic exercise.
It would be morally reprehensible to actually carry them out as concrete actions.

Not surprisingly, it was reported locally that Rush Limbaugh spent a good part of his show defending him with the full aggreement of his ditto heads.
These right wing talk shows hosts should just stick to Creationism, Intelligent Design, divine nature of George Bush presidency, and other outlandish topics.

Note:
I bet most people going through loop to defend him on this board are also white, just like in the wider population in the country. And that is disconcerting.
This is the one thing, race, where whites and blacks look at the same event, and come to different conclusions. It does not matter whether we go ball games (NBA,baseball, NFL) together.
BTW, has the catholic church (the Pope) taken a position on this one yet?

Sam L
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:02 PM
I don't see what justineeium is saying wrong...
That's because you're a Bible thumping redneck like he.

spokenword73
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:25 PM
Bill Bennett has set himself up for a (partially deserved) media flogging. Using abortion to make a point about the relationship between race & crime was truly idiotic.

However, no one is suggesting that the US should start aborting black babies, the mere suggestion is utterly ludicrous.

But, it is a fact that, for whatever reason, blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty.

I don't know why this is, but it is not racist to point out the statistics.

Blacks do not commit more crimes than whites. That is a lie and a misconception. There are more white people in jail than there are blacks in jail in the U.S. Hollaback.

justine&coria
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:25 PM
If we killed (let's say by suffocating them or why not drowning them) each 1 year-old black baby, the crime rate would go down too. (of course, if we don't count in this "crime rate" the murders of the 1yo babies). Am I right, Justeenium ?

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:27 PM
Racism not matter who commits it is wrong, but the silence amongst our leaders specifically our Republican leaders speaks volumes. I've honestly seen more outrage over the "George Bush doesn't care about black people" than this. Regardless of your political affliation if you can't see the racism in what the guy said then maybe you see what you want to see.

spokenword73
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:27 PM
I posted this before, but this a perfect place to revisit it

While we are it, why don't we…

Abort all Italian babies to bring down Italian on Italian crime rate, national crime rate, and save money in investigation, witness protection programs, police corruption
Abort all Irish babies to bring down drunk driving crime rate and accidents. This will also reduce, if not prevent, clergy sexual abuse in the catholic church
Abort all German babies to prevent another holocaust in the future
And on and on...
And yeah, please these are merely intellectual hypothesis that are worth discussing as an academic exercise.
It would be morally reprehensible to actually carry them out as concrete actions.

Not surprisingly, it was reported locally that Rush Limbaugh spent a good part of his show defending him with the full aggreement of his ditto heads.
These right wing talk shows hosts should just stick to Creationism, Intelligent Design, divine nature of George Bush presidency, and other outlandish topics.

Note:
I bet most people going through loop to defend him on this board also white, just like in the wider population in the country. And that is disconcerting.
This is the one thing, race, where whites and blacks look at the same event, and come to different conclusions.
BTW, has the catholic church (the Pope) taken a position on this one yet?

Great post. Ever since GWB got elected, it's like the racist, right-wing feel free to drag their hate towards black folks out of the closet. Bennet is saying what many many people in the U.S. really feel. It's scary.:fiery:

tennisbum79
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:34 PM
Racism not matter who commits it is wrong, but the silence amongst our leaders specifically our Republican leaders speaks volumes. I've honestly seen more outrage over the "George Bush doesn't care about black people" than this. Regardless of your political affliation if you can't see the racism in what the guy said then maybe you see what you want to see.
Because there is no political risk associated with tacit approval of statement like these.
Isn't that scarry?
Where are the religious leaders? Rev, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Rev Billy Graham and son, Rev Franklin Graham.

No word so far from the Right to Life civic organization.

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:39 PM
Great post. Ever since GWB got elected, it's like the racist, right-wing feel free to drag their hate towards black folks out of the closet. Bennet is saying what many many people in the U.S. really feel. It's scary.:fiery:


So many people like to talk about what an open and fair society we live in and how racism and hate in general isn't as bad as it use to be. Sure de jure racism is almost gone, but the de facto racism is as rampant as ever. I hate how in America we're so quick to judge other countries and talk about and promote freedom abroad when we have freedom and equality issues here at home. America is a racist country, but we live in a racist world were people are still treated badly because of their skin color.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:39 PM
Because there is no political risk associated with tacit approval of statement like these.
Isn't that scarry?
Where are the religious leaders? Rev, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Rev Billy Graham and son, Rev Franklin Graham.

No word so far from the Right to Life civic organization.

I doubt there will be any words from them :tape:

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:44 PM
I doubt there will be any words from them :tape:


Unless the words are to turn this into a Liberal v. Conservative argument instead if focusing on the racism behind Bennett's words. The worst part about their silence is that I'm a Christian and I know that God doesn't want us to hate one another, but love one another.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 01:56 PM
Bill Bennett has set himself up for a (partially deserved) media flogging. Using abortion to make a point about the relationship between race & crime was truly idiotic.

However, no one is suggesting that the US should start aborting black babies, the mere suggestion is utterly ludicrous.

But, it is a fact that, for whatever reason, blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty.

I don't know why this is, but it is not racist to point out the statistics.
until these stats take into consideration the inequalities in the justice system itself (black vs white), they are useless, as far as I am concerned ...

Kart
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:29 PM
translation: you can't refute anything I've said so rather than try I'm just going to ad hom you.

Incorrect again :yawn:.

The translation is: if you can't argue respectfully then no one will take you seriously.

Spewing forth all the facts and figures from your mini search engine internet research won't change that.

You lost your chances of winning this argument against anyone with your second post in here.

Game over :wavey:.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:56 PM
Blacks do not commit more crimes than whites. That is a lie and a misconception. There are more white people in jail than there are blacks in jail in the U.S. Hollaback.

Re-read my post. Taking into account the fact that there are far more white people in America than there are black, I said:

"blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty".

The facts are not in dispute. The question is why.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 02:58 PM
Re-read my post. Taking into account the fact that there are far more white people in America than there are black, I said:

"blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty".

The facts are not in dispute. The question is why.


Again how many times do i have to say this, until you can provide evidence to back up your claim no one has any reason to believe what you say. Please show me some sources which that black people commit proportionately more crimes that white people.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:00 PM
Incorrect again :yawn:.

The translation is: if you can't argue respectfully then no one will take you seriously.

Spewing forth all the facts and figures from your mini search engine internet research won't change that.

You lost your chances of winning this argument against anyone with your second post in here.

Game over :wavey:.

I would take this person's opinion more into consideration if some of their statistics were actually relevant to what they are claiming.

Sevenseas
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:01 PM
“But I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could, if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down,” said Bennett, author of “The Book of Virtues.”

He went on to call that “an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”





What a horrifically ignorant, shameful and sick statement!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad:
No need to comment more, as he humiliates and ridicules himself with his own words more than he can ever imagine!!!

flyingmachine
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:03 PM
Unless the words are to turn this into a Liberal v. Conservative argument instead if focusing on the racism behind Bennett's words. The worst part about their silence is that I'm a Christian and I know that God doesn't want us to hate one another, but love one another.
Unforturely, as you say it seems American politics is having an obsession with so called liberal v conservative at the moment. :o :o :o Instead of dealling with the real issue. :o

wta_zuperfann
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:11 PM
"Blacks commit proportionately more crime than Whites"


Baloney. The problem is selective enforcement of the laws.

Here in Minnesota, Whites commit 95 % of all the crime but they are only 50 % of those in prison. And that's because the laws are selectively enforced against Blacks.

Now compare white collar crime and you will see that this is almost exclusively committed by Whites and has a FAR greater impact on society than does street crime.

Case in point: Bush's criminal war in Iraq which has resulted in the theft of multiple BILLIONS from our treasury and the deaths of tens of thousands. Just imagine if Blacks had committed a series of crime waves in which this much money was stolen and this many people were killed - what would the news media be saying about that???

So, contrary to all that you may believe or want to believe, it is Whites who are the principal causers of crimes in the USA.

wta_zuperfann
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:16 PM
September 26, 2005

Banana Republicans

During a week when Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean tried to rally his party in a quixotic effort to block the confirmation of John Roberts, Republicans at all levels of government may have given him the keys to Congress. For Democrats, ending the epidemic of GOP corruption, patronage and cronyism has to be one sure fire theme for next year's mid-term elections. Memo to Dean: Clean Up the Mess in '06.

The Republican rap sheet for the past week alone is staggering. Senate Majority Leader and 2008 GOP presidential hopeful Bill Frist is now in deep trouble for likely insider trading. Only days earlier, the senior Bush administration procurement official at the Office of Management and Budget David Safavian was arrested for lying and obstructing the criminal investigation of Republican mega-lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Later in the week, the Bush administration continued revving up its patronage machine even in the post-Michael Brown era, nominating unqualified political hacks and industry stooges for a senior post at Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and leading investigations at the FTC.

With their notorious "K Street Project", Republicans have perfected the Iron Triangle that greases the skids between officials in federal agencies, the congressman and staff that have oversight for them, and the legions of lobbyists who ply them with connections, cash, and careers. It's long past time for the Republican purveyors of the Triangle of Iron to spend some time behind bars of iron.

The list of Republican miscreants below is by no means complete. But it should provide plenty of ammunition for Democrats running on platform of clean government and ethics reform in Washington, in the states, and on K Street:


In the White House

Philip Cooney. The former chief of staff for President Bush's Council on Environmental Quality set the modern day record for running the iron triangle. Cooney, who prior to joining the Bush White House was a lawyer (and not a scientist) for the Petroleum Institute, doctored government reports in order to cast doubt on the consensus linkage between greenhouse gas emissions and global warming. In just five days in June, Cooney went from revelations to resignation to rehiring by oil industry leader Exxon.

David Safavian. Safavian, the Bush administration's top procurement official at the Office of Management and Budget, was arrested for lying to federal agents and obstructing a criminal investigation. The investigation? The inquiry into his mentor and previous employer Jack Abramoff, from whom Safavian (like Tom Delay) accepted golf outings and for whom he arranged a sweetheart land deal for Abramoff's supposed Hebrew academy. With his other ties to Grover Norquist and Ralph Reed, Safavian may have just procured a lot of trouble for some of the leading lights – and low lifes – of the conservative movement.


Dick Cheney. Following the ethical lapses of Vice President Cheney is only slightly less difficult than following his arteries. Cheney successfully fought off inquiries into the composition of the White House Energy Task force, which produced the bill signed by President Bush authorizing massive tax giveaway to industry cronies. Despite leaving Halliburton prior to becoming Vice President, Cheney continues to draw almost $200,000 a year from Halliburton through a blind trust. Halliburton has been investigated over fraud and mismanagement in the $7 billion of contracts it has received in Iraq. And of course, Halliburton subsidiaries were among the first to gobble up Katrina recovery contracts. Not surprisingly, Army whistleblower Bunnatine Greenhouse was demoted for questioning Halliburton's no-bid contracts.


Karl Rove. The misdeeds of "the Architect" are legion, many having to do with Valerie Plame CIA outing scandal. But from the early days of the Bush administration, Rove too was involved in corruption and cronyism. In 2001, Rove met at the White House with Intel executives seeking government approval of a merger, despite his ownership of over $100,000 of Intel stock at the time.

In Congress

Bill Frist. The good doctor is big trouble over the growing insider trading scandal involving stock of health care giant HCA, stock which supposedly was being held in a blind trust. Despite his repeated public denials, AP reported that Frist has been regularly updated about the status of the HCA stock since 2002. In mid-July, Frist's trust joined a host of HCA insiders in selling off $112 million of stock just prior to a 15% drop in its value. This is not the first time the Frist family had been in trouble over HCA, which acquired the Columbia company founded by his father. In addition to past fines for Medicare fraud, the family business has also been at the center of a 1997 insider trading inquiry involving Bill's brother Thomas. As the record clearly shows, Frist lied twice. Terri Schiavo was blind. His blind trust was not.

Tom Delay. The House Majority leader and man who promised to bring "biblical government" to Washington is facing ethical woes of biblical proportions. Delay and key aides have been indicted for accepting illegal corporate contributions to Delay's Texas for a Republican Majority Political Action Committee. His "dearest friend", golf buddy and influence peddler in the Mariana Islands Jack Abramoff has been arrested. And over the years, his wife and daughter have been over $500,000 in campaign funds. No wonder Delay says that he, like Jesus, is being persecuted for his message.


Bob Ney. The Ohio Congressman is in hot water over his association with golfing partners Abramoff and Safavian. Ney received a lavish trip to Scotland on Abramoff's private jet, a trip worth over $100,000. Ney also received over $30,000 in contributions from Abramoff casino client, the Tigua tribe. As the American Prospect reported, these favors and perks are just the tip of the iceberg.

In the Federal Bureaucracy

Michael Brown. "Brownie", previously fired by the International Arabian Horse Association, resigned in disgrace from FEMA after his performance in the Katrina debacle and his faked resume came to light. Brown’s primary qualification to become FEMA head in the post-9/11 United States was his close relationship with the agency’s previous head, GOP fundraiser and Brown's own college roommate, Joe Allbaugh. (below). Brown's primary qualification for staying on the job? Delivering Florida for George W. Bush in 2004, of course.

Joe Allbaugh. The head of FEMA responsible who recommended his college roommate Michael Brown as his successor at the disaster response agency, Allbaugh brought no relevant qualifications to the Bush administration. None, that is, except a proven track record of as a Republican fundraiser. Even moreso than fake Bush environmental watchdog Philip Cooney, Allbaugh quickly translated his government service into quick cash. His latest win? Katrina recovery contracts for his consulting firm from his past employer, FEMA.


Julie Myers. Bush nominee Myers found her nomination to head the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency (ICE) in trouble in the wake of the Michael Brown fiasco. Even Republican Senator Mike Dewine (R-OH) questioned her credentials, which include stints as a federal prosecutor and time at the Commerce Department. Myers, who has no experience running a large bureaucracy, does have experience being the niece of outgoing Joint Chiefs head Richard Myers and being the wife of John Wood, chief of staff for DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff.


Deborah Majoras. The Federal Trade Commission chairwoman is the FTC's point person on its gasoline price gauging inquiry in the wake of hurricane Katrina. Unfortunately, in her prior life at the Jones Day law firm she was also the point person for Chevron-Texaco and Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root. In 2004, Senator Ron Wyden opposed her nomination for her refusal to outline the steps she would take to investigate and fight gas price gauging.

In the States

California Governor Arnold Schwarzegger. The Terminator was forced to terminate his $8 million contract with American Media Inc. signed just days before his inauguration. AMI, which also paid for the silence of Arnold teen paramour Gigi Goyette, was funneling $1.5 million a year to the Governor in exchange for his promotion of the syndicate’s muscle magazines. Not surprisingly, during this time Arnold blocked legislation proposing new regulations for dietary supplements.

Ohio Governor Bob Taft. The Ohio Governor got caught up in the Ohio "Coingate" scandal, accepting gifts and golfing outings from Thomas Noe (below). Pleading no contest to four misdemeanor ethics violations, Taft showed that even more than his grandfather, he is "Mr. Republican."


Kentucky Governor Ernie Fletcher. In a new low even for Republicans, Governor Fletcher granted a blanket pardon to nine current and former members of his administration who were charged with violations of state personnel laws. The governor of course claims the investigation into his nepotism and patronage in hiring practices, which led the Kentucky Attorney General to search his offices, is politically motivated. Right.


Tom Noe. A prominent Republican fundraiser in Ohio, Noe was a major contributor for President Bush, Governor Taft and governor-want-to-be Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell. Noe is also at the center of "Coingate", a scandal by which Noe received $50 million from the state’s workers compensation fund for investment in rare coins. So rare, in fact, that at least $13 million is unaccounted for.

On K Street

Jack Abramoff. The crimes of Republican mega lobbyist Abramoff are so numerous as the prevent listing them all here. In addition to paying for trips and golf outings for Tom Delay and David Safavian, Abramoff swindled over $60 million from Indian tribes whose casino interests he represented. (Abramoff was indicted in August.) Together, Abramoff and Safavian could spell a lot of trouble for a lot of Republicans.

Ralph Reed. The Safavian web also entangles Ralph Reed, formerly of the Christian Coalition and Bush's southeastern campaign chairman. Reed was on those golf outings with Safavian and Abramoff. Like Abramoff, Reed also feasted on native Americans to the tune of $1 million in fees for casino lobbying. Interestingly, Reed also worked for Bill Gates in 2000, lobbying then candidate and Reed ally George W. Bush regarding the Department of Justice against Microsoft.

The list goes on and on. The Republicans parasites in the White House, in Congress, in state houses and in the lobbying firms, are turning the United States into a sad parody of the stereotypical South American banana Republic. Better yet, the Bush White House has come to resemble the government of Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos. Even down to Condi Rice's shoes.




http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000255.htm




************************************************** ********



Naturally, with but one or two exceptions at most, these crooks are all White Republicans.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:20 PM
Again how many times do i have to say this, until you can provide evidence to back up your claim no one has any reason to believe what you say. Please show me some sources which that black people commit proportionately more crimes that white people.

I think most people know what I am saying is statistically accurate.

I can't really be bothered trawling the web for a dossier of evidence. Why don't you do some digging around then report back to me with your findings? :)

Infiniti2001
Oct 1st, 2005, 03:30 PM
Re-read my post. Taking into account the fact that there are far more white people in America than there are black, I said:

"blacks commit proportionately more crime in the US than whites, even taking into account relative levels of poverty".

The facts are not in dispute. The question is why.

You cannot be serious!!! :rolleyes: Blacks are convicted more , bottom-line there is NO proof that blacks commit the most crime. Take the drug convictions for example-- blacks are convicted severely at higher rates for crack, while caucasians usually get a slap on the wrist for cocaine :fiery:-- not that I condone the drug use , but that's a fact. Actually , this is norm for all crimes committed by any race. The penalties are stiffer for black folk, hence the reason for the overflowing of prisons. The sooner this is addressed , the better off we will be.

*JR*
Oct 1st, 2005, 04:02 PM
but the stats also show that there are almost twice as many whites in poverty as blacks.

The rates of violent crime don't follow the same ratio. Poverty may narrow the gap, but the gap is still there.
You've missed everything that both RunDown and I said. Let me make it a little simpler: poverty exists in "clusters", which may be larger or smaller. So if you have 22.7% of the black population living below the official poverty line (meaning probably more than a third below one thats calculated more reasonably) you get huge areas where a large majority is poor.

Thus there's a cycle of: the lack of decently paying jobs in these areas, the rampant cycle of "babies having babies" as Jesse Jackson calls it, the escape into mind-numbing drugs, which in turn makes the violent world of drug dealing one of the more successful "enterprises". AND the unfortunate willingness of kids who don't see hope in their lives to "kill or be killed".

So its not that blacks are some genetically inferior group of people, or any other such stupidity. IMO, its unfortunate that conservatives like Mr. Bennett (and their lackeys like Armstrong Williams) don't have the common sense 2B using their media access to demand for the economically depressed of the US adherence to a reasonable "social contract" to break the cycle.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 04:12 PM
"Blacks commit proportionately more crime than Whites"


Baloney. The problem is selective enforcement of the laws.
Here in Minnesota, Whites commit 95 % of all the crime but they are only 50 % of those in prison. And that's because the laws are selectively enforced against Blacks.

Now compare white collar crime and you will see that this is almost exclusively committed by Whites and has a FAR greater impact on society than does street crime.

Case in point: Bush's criminal war in Iraq which has resulted in the theft of multiple BILLIONS from our treasury and the deaths of tens of thousands. Just imagine if Blacks had committed a series of crime waves in which this much money was stolen and this many people were killed - what would the news media be saying about that???

So, contrary to all that you may believe or want to believe, it is Whites who are the principal causers of crimes in the USA.

:bowdown:

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 04:16 PM
You cannot be serious!!! :rolleyes: Blacks are convicted more , bottom-line there is NO proof that blacks commit the most crime. Take the drug convictions for example-- blacks are convicted severely at higher rates for crack, while caucasians usually get a slap on the wrist for cocaine :fiery:-- not that I condone the drug use , but that's a fact. Actually , this is norm for all crimes committed by any race. The penalties are stiffer for black folk, hence the reason for the overflowing of prisons. The sooner this is addressed , the better off we will be.
:worship:

Kart
Oct 1st, 2005, 05:13 PM
I would take this person's opinion more into consideration if some of their statistics were actually relevant to what they are claiming.

I wouldn't ;).

There are ways of speaking to people if you really want them to listen to you.

Winding them up with comments you know will irritate them - no matter how true you may believe them to be - is not it.

marmite1
Oct 1st, 2005, 05:15 PM
I wouldn't ;).

There are ways of speaking to people if you really want them to listen to you.

Winding them up with comments you know will irritate them - no matter how true you may believe them to be - is not it.

I dont want people to listen if they aren't willing. But so surprised how much tripe people talk on this board.

spokenword73
Oct 1st, 2005, 05:58 PM
[QUOTE=spokenword73]Blacks get charged with more crimes than whites. That's not the same thing. Unless you believe the criminal justice system is fair and everybody charged with a crime is actually guilty. If so I've got a bridge I would like to sell you...in Palm Springs:wavey: Thank God for DNA.

Plus the prison industrial complex in the U.S. is big business...in other words if you are poor and cannot afford decent legal representation in the courts, chances are you will be convicted, sent to prison where you will work for free. :confused: Prisoners (especially in California) are doing lots of work other folks used to do, like making furniture and bill collections. By keeping minorities in jail, it guarantees a free work force.

hablo
Oct 1st, 2005, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=spokenword73]Blacks get charged with more crimes than whites. That's not the same thing. Unless you believe the criminal justice system is fair and everybody charged with a crime is actually guilty. If so I've got a bridge I would like to sell you...in Palm Springs:wavey: Thank God for DNA.

Plus the prison industrial complex in the U.S. is big business...in other words if you are poor and cannot afford decent legal representation in the courts, chances are you will be convicted, sent to prison where you will work for free. :confused: Prisoners (especially in California) are doing lots of work other folks used to do, like making furniture and bill collections. By keeping minorities in jail, it guarantees a free work force.

keep telling it like it is :yeah: :worship:

Black Mamba.
Oct 1st, 2005, 06:15 PM
If anyone thinks the justice system is fair look at all the cops charged with police brutality. The beating is caught on tape by an independent White person and somehow the charges never stick. You combine that with getting pulled over and getting cuffed because cops don't think you should be driving a nice car or you don't belong in certain areas, it is pretty clear cops pursue some people harder than others.

Cariaoke
Oct 1st, 2005, 09:31 PM
:worship: to the TRUTH tellers in this thread.

The very people who think most blacks are criminals are the very ones who ensure that as many blacks as possible ARE convicted criminals through selective enforcement, blackmail, planting drugs and "evidence" and the use of false witnesses to testify against them in court.

It smells of a conspiracy theory but why have so many black men been freed from prison and in many cases DEATH ROW in the last ten years due to DNA evidence?

I'll tell you why. SCIENCE isn't racist. ;)

It's all about what defense you can afford. If you're poor, you're relegated to a public defender who has hundreds of cases which means 9 times out of 10, you're doing some time. If you're rich, painted as a saint and most importantly "all-american", clean cut looking (no visible scars, etc.), you'll do less time, get probation or better yet NOT EVEN BE CHARGED with a crime.

Of course the majority of benefactors of the aforementioned rules never acknowledge their advantage because if they did, they fear they'd lose it. ;)

*JR*
Oct 1st, 2005, 10:22 PM
...

It smells of a conspiracy theory but why have so many black men been freed from prison and in many cases DEATH ROW in the last ten years due to DNA evidence?

I'll tell you why. SCIENCE isn't racist. ;)

Companion question: why have so many prosecutors fought like hell to PREVENT those DNA tests? Perhaps they'd rather let the innocent person stay in jail (or maybe even be executed) than have it shown that they (or a predecessor) fucked up? (Even knowing that this could keep the actual perpetrator not only beyond prosecution, but "arrogantly so", knowing they beat the system). :mad:

wta_zuperfann
Oct 1st, 2005, 11:31 PM
Profiling and how it skews crime statistics:


http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/1999-05/may_23shalom.htm



May 23, 1999

The Struggle Against Racial Profiling

Stephen R. Shalom

For years, African American motorists have complained of being stopped by the police for the offense of DWB -- "Driving While Black." From grueling life experience, African Americans have known that they were singled out on the nation's roads for traffic stops and searches, and subject to humiliation, intimidation, and, all too often, police violence. But to white America, "racial profiling" -- the police policy of acting on the basis of racial or ethnic stereotypes that has the effect of treating minority group members differently from non-minorities -- was largely invisible.

In New Jersey in 1996, a Superior Court judge ruled that there had been racial profiling on the southern NJ Turnpike over a three-year period. Black drivers were five times as likely as white drivers to be pulled over by troopers, noted the judge, who found that the police had a policy of "selective enforcement" by "targeting blacks for investigation and arrest." Moreover, the "utter failure" of the state police hierarchy to "investigate the many claims of institutional discrimination, manifests its indifference if not acceptance." The administration of Republican Governor Christine Todd Whitman responded by filing an appeal without bothering to conduct any investigation to see whether there was any merit to the judge's findings.

Then, in April 1998, two white NJ state troopers fired 11 shots into a van carrying four unarmed minority males on their way to a basketball clinic, wounding three, two seriously. The troopers claimed that the driver had put the van into reverse to run them down after they had pulled the vehicle over for speeding. The evidence made the troopers' claim extremely dubious -- witnesses said the van was moving too slowly to be a threat to anyone -- and a grand jury is currently looking into the matter. But in any event the incident propelled the issue of racial profiling into public focus. The troopers at first asserted that they had detected the speeding van by radar, but their patrol car was not equipped with radar; it seemed clear that what they had detected was black and brown drivers. State officials still denied that profiling occurred, but two-thirds of blacks and even a third of whites disagreed. Protests, prayer vigils, and lawsuits further mobilized public pressure.

By early 1999, the controversy over racial profiling presented a potential problem for Whitman, who hoped to run for the U.S. Senate seat vacated by Democrat Frank Lautenberg. And it created an even bigger problem for State Attorney General Peter Verniero, who had been nominated by Whitman to fill a vacancy on the State Supreme Court. As the chief law enforcement officer in the state and in charge of the state police, Verniero worried that his court bid might be thwarted by the profiling furor.

Under these circumstances, Verniero ordered an investigation of racial profiling. A final report was due out in June, but an interim report was issued on April 20, in time for Verniero's nomination hearings. The interim report had many problems: it did not turn a critical eye to the responsibility of top officials for the racial profiling, nor did it challenge any of the basic assumptions of the current drug war, nor did it analyze the myriad ways other than highway racial profiling in which racism is built into the criminal justice system. Nonetheless, the report was the first official acknowledgment of racial profiling and, as such, may serve as a useful tool for activists fighting for social justice in New Jersey and in the rest of the country. (The Interim Report of the State Police Review Team Regarding Allegations of Racial Profiling is available on the web in PDF format at http://www.state.nj.us/lps/.)

The report found that "minority motorists have been treated differently than non-minority motorists during the course of traffic stops on the New Jersey Turnpike." The "problem of disparate treatment is real -- not imagined." Minorities were more likely than whites to be stopped by the police. Blacks and Latinos were the "overwhelming majority" (77.2%) of those who were searched by the police and most of those who were arrested.

Is this disparity in traffic stops due to the greater propensity of minorities to commit traffic infractions? "We are aware of no study," stated the report, "that supports the hypothesis that minority motorists are more likely to violate motor vehicle laws than non-minority motorists, or that violations committed by minority motorists tend to be more serious than violations committed by non-minority motorists."

There were actually two sources of the disparity, according to the report: One was "willful misconduct" by a "small number" of state police. (The day before the release of the interim report, a separate grand jury indicted the two state troopers involved in the van shooting incident for falsifying patrol records that could have shown they were targeting minority drivers. At least ten other troopers were suspected of the same kind of falsification.) The second source of the differential treatment was "more common instances of possible de facto discrimination by officers who may be influenced by stereotypes and may thus tend to treat minority motorists differently during the course of routine traffic stops, subjecting them more routinely to investigative tactics and techniques that are designed to ferret out illicit drugs and weapons."

A police officer, the report argued, need not be a racist to violate people's right to equal protection under the law. Discriminatory practices were reinforced by ambiguities in stated policies, conflicting messages given out by drug interdiction training programs, formal and informal reward systems, and inadequate procedures for identifying, investigating, and remediating disparate treatment. The report recommended that "as a matter of policy for the New Jersey State Police, race, ethnicity, and national origin should not be used at all by troopers in selecting vehicles to be stopped or in exercising discretion during the course of a stop (other than in determining whether a person matches the general description of one or more known suspects)," a policy which goes beyond the requirements of federal law.

Would such an approach mean less effective policing? Aren't certain ethnic groups statistically more likely to be involved in criminal activity? The report gives three answers to these questions.

First, the major impediment to successful police work is the lack of community support. Racial profiling and other forms of unequal treatment have alienated African Americans from those who are supposedly assigned to "serve and protect" them, making minority citizens less likely to report crimes or cooperate with law enforcement officers. Thus, the elimination of racial profiling should enhance, not reduce, police efficacy.

Second, the report argues that the claim that a group is over-represented in crime is a self-fulfilling prophecy, particularly for drug offenses. How do we know how many people have committed drug offenses? "Only a negligible percentage of drug offenses that are actually committed ever come to the attention of law enforcement agencies." Survey data can tell us about drug use and they show roughly comparable rates among blacks, whites, and Latinos; but for drug trafficking the only indicator is the arrest rate. But drug arrests reflect not the rate of drug offenses but "the extent and nature of law enforcement's proactive efforts." That minorities are disproportionately arrested for drug offenses reflects the fact that "urban drug dealers tend to operate in open-air drug markets, making them easier to identify and arrest than [those] who operate more discreetly behind closed doors in suburban and rural jurisdictions." And minorities are also arrested more often because they are the subject of racial profiling, which in turn is based on their allegedly greater propensity for criminal activity. In short, a vicious cycle.

And third, even where there are solid sociological data linking a particular ethnic group to a type of crime, the vast majority of the members of that group are not criminals. Therefore, no rational conclusion can be drawn inferring criminal behavior on the basis of group membership.

In the past few months legislation has been proposed in at least ten states requiring police to maintain data on traffic stops. In the U.S. Congress, John Conyers has re-introduced his "Traffic Stops Statistics Act." Such legislation would make it easier for activists to fight racial profiling.

Racial profiling has been exposed and is under attack everywhere. But it will take sustained popular pressure to eliminate it once and for all.

_______________________

Stephen R. Shalom teaches political science at William Paterson University in NJ. He is the author of IMPERIAL ALIBIS (South End, 1993) and is currently working on WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON? AN INTRODUCTION TO POLITICS.

Cariaoke
Oct 1st, 2005, 11:33 PM
^ admitting one's faults is a problem many people have. the same with malpractice situations in medicine... people with power can easily cover up their mistakes and get away with it.

also, it's no coincedence that DA's can't be sued or charged with a crime for knowingly falsifying evidence to get a conviction. or that laws have been passed to make it harder to sue HMO's for wrong-doing.

One hand continues to rub the other. ;)

Justeenium
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:28 AM
"Blacks commit proportionately more crime than Whites"


Baloney. The problem is selective enforcement of the laws.

Here in Minnesota, Whites commit 95 % of all the crime but they are only 50 % of those in prison. And that's because the laws are selectively enforced against Blacks.

Now compare white collar crime and you will see that this is almost exclusively committed by Whites and has a FAR greater impact on society than does street crime.

Case in point: Bush's criminal war in Iraq which has resulted in the theft of multiple BILLIONS from our treasury and the deaths of tens of thousands. Just imagine if Blacks had committed a series of crime waves in which this much money was stolen and this many people were killed - what would the news media be saying about that???

So, contrary to all that you may believe or want to believe, it is Whites who are the principal causers of crimes in the USA.

show me your source

Rocketta
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:29 AM
Looking at Juvenile justice in Black and WhiteMathis, Greg. Tri - State Defender. Memphis: Jan 07, 2004.Vol. 53, Iss. 1; pg. 4A

Publication title:Tri - State Defender. Memphis: Jan 07, 2004. Vol. 53, Iss. 1; pg. 4A

Source type:NewspaperProQuest document
URL:http://nclive.lib.ncsu.edu:2068/pqdweb?did=622480051&sid=1&Fmt=3&cli entId=15092&RQT=309&VName=PQD

Abstract (Document Summary)During the same years that the cases of those African American youth were sensationalized in the media for weeks at a time, we saw short flashes of media coverage involving mass shootings and killings being committed by white youth. Not only were the mass shootings in places such as Conyers, Georgia, Jonesboro, Arkansas and Littleton Colorado less publicized, but also sentences for white youth convicted of high profile murders were much lighter. In Florida, for example, where Black youth have received the harshest sentences, and the state which leads the nation in trying children as adults, white youth convicted of murder received lighter sentences than Blacks in most cases.

http://nclive.lib.ncsu.edu:2068/images/common/spacer.gif Full Text (413 words)Copyright Tri - State Defender Jan 07, 2004The face of the Juvenile Justice System is that of a violent Black youth. African American youth however are no more violent than white youth. In recent years, the news media have made Black juveniles the poster children for youth violence by highlighting such cases as Nathaniel Brazill, the 14-year-old sentenced to a 28 year prison term in Florida for killing his teacher; Nathaniel Abraham, the 11-year-old Michigan child who was the youngest person in state history to be charged as an adult after a shooting death; and Lionel Tate, the 14-year-old originally sentenced to life without parole in the state of Florida for killing a 6-year-old girl while wrestling with her. Fortunately, earlier this month, Tate won an appeal in his case.

During the same years that the cases of those African American youth were sensationalized in the media for weeks at a time, we saw short flashes of media coverage involving mass shootings and killings being committed by white youth. Not only were the mass shootings in places such as Conyers, Georgia, Jonesboro, Arkansas and Littleton Colorado less publicized, but also sentences for white youth convicted of high profile murders were much lighter. In Florida, for example, where Black youth have received the harshest sentences, and the state which leads the nation in trying children as adults, white youth convicted of murder received lighter sentences than Blacks in most cases. The most dramatic disparities can be seen in the sentencing for murder the white juveniles Alex and Derek King received for beating their father to death when they were 12 and 13. One received 7 years and the other only 8. Another white youth in Florida, 14-year-old Christopher Pittman, has been held in juvenile for the past 2 years for killing his grandparents and setting their home on fire while they were asleep.

Florida by far has the worst record for Black juvenile injustice but there are many other states that are over-sentencing African American youth in response to the media demonizing our young men and putting a Black face on youth crime. To address this problem we must insist that judges and not prosecutors decide whether a child is tried as an adult, and we must elect judges that have not been convinced by the media that Black youth are more violent than white.

(Judge Mathis is Chairman of the Rainbow PUSH-Excel Board and a National Board Member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.)

Article copyright Tri-State Defender Publishing, Inc.

Cariaoke
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:32 AM
^ not surprising but at least it's documented. thanks for the article.

Justeenium
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:37 AM
You cannot be serious!!! :rolleyes: Blacks are convicted more , bottom-line there is NO proof that blacks commit the most crime. Take the drug convictions for example-- blacks are convicted severely at higher rates for crack, while caucasians usually get a slap on the wrist for cocaine :fiery:-- not that I condone the drug use , but that's a fact. Actually , this is norm for all crimes committed by any race. The penalties are stiffer for black folk, hence the reason for the overflowing of prisons. The sooner this is addressed , the better off we will be.
Here is proof that blacks commit more murders proportionately

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

you can't pull the justice system excuse here. It lists the rates of offenders and victims, not those charged with murder.

13% of the population yet more than half the murders. what is your excuse infinit?

Rocketta
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:38 AM
Full Text (548 words)Copyright The Jacksonville Free Press Jun 27, 2001 Vol.15, Iss. 25; pg. 4
Is it a Surprise There's Huge Racial Disparities Found in Juvenile Sentencing Too?

First the good news: Youth crime is down.

But before anybody says, "See, the system works," I have some bad news. When prosecutors make the decision on trying juveniles as adults, the race of the juvenile makes all the difference.

Look at Cook County, Ill. Of the 393 youth automatically transferred to adult court in Cook County during 1999-2000, a whopping 99 percent were either African American or Latino, according to a recently completed study commissioned by Building Blocks for Youth and prepared by the Justice Policy Institute, a national think tank that studies criminal-justice issues. Furthermore, 99 percent of the youth imprisoned for drug crimes from Cook County were non-whites.

Crime deserves punishment. But the shocking facts in Illinois uncovered by the Justice Policy Institute show that punishment is not being meted out equally.

The report (available at www.buildingblocksforyouth.org (http://www.buildingblocksforyouth.org)) has other disturbing numbers.

Between 1986 and 1996, the number of white youth entering Illinois prisons increased by half while the number of African-American youth entering prison more than tripled.

More than half of the juvenile drug-transfer cases had never received juvenile court services before, and 34 percent had no previous juvenile-court convictions.

Nationwide, juvenile black drug offenders are sentenced to 90 days more in state correctional facilities than their white counterparts. For Latino youths, the number is a staggering 160 days longer than for white youth.

Crime deserves punishment. But blacks and Latinos, when it comes to drugs, are committing fewer crimes while doing more of the time.

The National Household Survey on Drug Abuse reports that white youths between 12 and 17 are a third more likely to have sold drugs than African Americans. In terms of usage, a 1998-1999 survey of high-school seniors conducted by the National Institute of Drug Abuse concluded that white youths are seven to eight times more likely to use cocaine and seven times more likely to use heroin.

The cause for the disparity in Illinois, the authors of the Justice Policy Institute study note, is linked to automatic transfer laws that mandate that 15 and 16 year olds be sent directly to adult court for dealing drugs within 1,000 feet of a school or public-housing project.

"Illinois' 16-year experiment with automatic transfer for drugs offences does not affect suburban or rural white youth in a way even remotely comparable to the way it affects urban minority youth," says Jason Ziedenberg, a senior policy analyst with Justice Policy Institute.

Crime deserves punishment. But the punishment for crimes committed by all youths should be the same for everyone, regardless of race or class.

However, this is just one part of the problem. These laws, especially for first-time offenders, are too harsh. Consider the long-term effects of moving a youthful offender to adult court. A felony record will act as a roadblock to job and educational opportunities.

Illinois and other states are sending a message that young white lives are more important in the long run than those of blacks and Latinos.

Crime deserves punishment. But our system of justice is discriminatory, and it has abandoned the long-standing notion that youth offenders can be rehabilitated and educated. I shudder to think what these juveniles, without hope, will do as adults.

Justeenium
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:41 AM
The idea of aborting an entire generation of a race of children is not morally reprehensible?!!!!!!?!

And justeenium never acknowledged that it was a horrible thing to say.
I said Bennet's comment was insensitive, I didn't say it was horrible because it isn't. If he had said "we should abort black babies" then that would be horrible.

anyways i'd like to thank you for being quite a bit more mature and realistic than some of your fellow RC members.

Infiniti2001
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:47 AM
Here is proof that blacks commit more murders proportionately

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

you can't pull the justice system excuse here. It lists the rates of offenders and victims, not those charged with murder.

13% of the population yet more than half the murders. what is your excuse infinit?


You really need to quit while you are ahead :tape: :rolleyes:

Rocketta
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:52 AM
Title: Official in Racial Profiling Study Demoted , Washington Post, The, 01908286, Aug 25, 2005
Database: Newspaper Source Official in Racial Profiling Study Demoted

Justice Department Denies Political Pressure; Lawmaker Demands Investigation

Section: , A07

The ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee called for a congressional investigation yesterday into allegations that a Justice Department official is being demoted after attempting to publicize findings that police treated Hispanic and black drivers more aggressively than whites during traffic stops.

Rep. John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) said he was preparing a request for an "independent review" by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, which will be asked to examine the personnel issues and the formulation of the study itself.

"It is totally unacceptable for the Justice Department to politicize statistical releases and demote individuals merely because they were seeking to provide accurate summaries of statistical information regarding racial profiling," Conyers said.

Conyers's demand came after a report in the New York Times focusing on Lawrence A. Greenfeld, who heads the Bureau of Justice Statistics, a small office staffed primarily with statisticians who conduct studies and issue reports on law enforcement issues.

Quoting unidentified officials and documents, the report said Greenfeld was ordered to delete references to racial disparities in a news release prepared to announce a study on the treatment of different ethnic groups during police traffic stops.

The survey of 80,000 people, which was eventually issued in April without a news release, found that minority drivers were three times as likely to have their vehicles searched during traffic stops as white drivers.

Greenfeld fought the order and was eventually called to the White House and urged to resign six months before he was eligible for full pension benefits, but Greenfeld invoked personnel rules to force an agreement to place him in a different job, the Times said. Greenfeld did not return a telephone message left yesterday.

Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse declined to comment on the personnel status of Greenfeld, who is still acting as head of the statistics bureau.

But Roehrkasse denied that any political pressure was applied in the debate over the racial profiling survey, and said that a majority of studies from the statistics bureau are released without news releases.

"There was no effort to suppress any information," Roehrkasse said. "The report went out in its entirety and is fully available to anyone who wants to read it."

Greenfeld, who was appointed in 2001 by President Bush and confirmed by the Senate in 2002, has told his staff that he is leaving, officials said.

Officials said yesterday that the statistics office prides itself on its independence from political pressure. The program is physically separate from the department's central building on Pennsylvania Avenue in downtown Washington.

2005 (c) The Washington Post. All rights reserved.

marmite1
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:52 AM
Again we are not talking about just murders. We are talking about crime as a whole.

hablo
Oct 2nd, 2005, 12:54 AM
keep posting these articles, Rocketta :yeah::worship:

harloo
Oct 2nd, 2005, 01:09 AM
Why even try people? People like Justeenium are incapable of discerning reality from fantasy. Their is no statistical proof that aborting a black baby would decrease the crime rate because no such study has ever been done. You can quote black crime rates and compare them to other races and that still would not prove anything. You cannot determine the value of a child's life and the direction it would take when adulthood is reached.

It is dishearting to hear a former Secretary Of State make racist statements in a public forum. How could someone with this divisive ideology ever represent the the United States? Benett may be this generations Margaret Sanger who was a racist hate filled ****.:fiery:

Justeenium
Oct 2nd, 2005, 01:27 AM
Why even try people? People like Justeenium are incapable of discerning reality from fantasy. Their is no statistical proof that aborting a black baby would decrease the crime rate because no such study has ever been done. You can quote black crime rates and compare them to other races and that still would not prove anything. You cannot determine the value of a child's life and the direction it would take when adulthood is reached.

It is dishearting to hear a former Secretary Of State make racist statements in a public forum. How could someone with this divisive ideology ever represent the the United States? Benett may be this generations Margaret Sanger who was a racist hate filled ****.:fiery:

I'm incapable of discerning reality from fantasy??? hmmm...

why don't you look at the picture.

harloo
Oct 2nd, 2005, 01:44 AM
I'm incapable of discerning reality from fantasy??? hmmm...

why don't you look at the picture.

Keep trying Justeenium. That chart does not prove Benett's theory.

You need to look in the mirror because you have some serious issues. Anytime you bad rep someone for having a picture of Scoville Jenkins in their avatar claiming, "You are racist and only like him because he's black", you need to find a shrink. :tape: :lol:

spokenword73
Oct 2nd, 2005, 02:22 AM
Looking at Juvenile justice in Black and WhiteMathis, Greg. Tri - State Defender. Memphis: Jan 07, 2004.Vol. 53, Iss. 1; pg. 4A

Publication title:Tri - State Defender. Memphis: Jan 07, 2004. Vol. 53, Iss. 1; pg. 4A

Source type:NewspaperProQuest document
URL:http://nclive.lib.ncsu.edu:2068/pqdweb?did=622480051&sid=1&Fmt=3&cli entId=15092&RQT=309&VName=PQD

Abstract (Document Summary)During the same years that the cases of those African American youth were sensationalized in the media for weeks at a time, we saw short flashes of media coverage involving mass shootings and killings being committed by white youth. Not only were the mass shootings in places such as Conyers, Georgia, Jonesboro, Arkansas and Littleton Colorado less publicized, but also sentences for white youth convicted of high profile murders were much lighter. In Florida, for example, where Black youth have received the harshest sentences, and the state which leads the nation in trying children as adults, white youth convicted of murder received lighter sentences than Blacks in most cases.

http://nclive.lib.ncsu.edu:2068/images/common/spacer.gif Full Text (413 words)Copyright Tri - State Defender Jan 07, 2004The face of the Juvenile Justice System is that of a violent Black youth. African American youth however are no more violent than white youth. In recent years, the news media have made Black juveniles the poster children for youth violence by highlighting such cases as Nathaniel Brazill, the 14-year-old sentenced to a 28 year prison term in Florida for killing his teacher; Nathaniel Abraham, the 11-year-old Michigan child who was the youngest person in state history to be charged as an adult after a shooting death; and Lionel Tate, the 14-year-old originally sentenced to life without parole in the state of Florida for killing a 6-year-old girl while wrestling with her. Fortunately, earlier this month, Tate won an appeal in his case.

During the same years that the cases of those African American youth were sensationalized in the media for weeks at a time, we saw short flashes of media coverage involving mass shootings and killings being committed by white youth. Not only were the mass shootings in places such as Conyers, Georgia, Jonesboro, Arkansas and Littleton Colorado less publicized, but also sentences for white youth convicted of high profile murders were much lighter. In Florida, for example, where Black youth have received the harshest sentences, and the state which leads the nation in trying children as adults, white youth convicted of murder received lighter sentences than Blacks in most cases. The most dramatic disparities can be seen in the sentencing for murder the white juveniles Alex and Derek King received for beating their father to death when they were 12 and 13. One received 7 years and the other only 8. Another white youth in Florida, 14-year-old Christopher Pittman, has been held in juvenile for the past 2 years for killing his grandparents and setting their home on fire while they were asleep.

Florida by far has the worst record for Black juvenile injustice but there are many other states that are over-sentencing African American youth in response to the media demonizing our young men and putting a Black face on youth crime. To address this problem we must insist that judges and not prosecutors decide whether a child is tried as an adult, and we must elect judges that have not been convinced by the media that Black youth are more violent than white.

(Judge Mathis is Chairman of the Rainbow PUSH-Excel Board and a National Board Member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.)

Article copyright Tri-State Defender Publishing, Inc.

Thanks for this. Is Greg Mathias, the Judge Mathias from TV?:wavey:

~ The Leopard ~
Oct 2nd, 2005, 03:01 AM
Chat thread! :drool:

wta_zuperfann
Oct 2nd, 2005, 02:18 PM
Up to this time right wingers were the ones who said that abortion was a bad thing. Strangely, they now approve of it in order to reduce crimes.

Since that's the case, maybe we should abort Neo-Con babies in order to reduce the amount of wars in this world.

backhanddtl4
Oct 2nd, 2005, 05:03 PM
That's what the author of "Freakanomics" says too, but he doesn't say it's because of the black children, he said it's because of just abortion.

williamsfan
Oct 3rd, 2005, 09:00 PM
A pro-life conservative wanting to abort babies. Isn't that a oxymoron. Or just a moron. The same thing Hitler wanted to do with the Jews. Its called ethnic cleansing. Its sad that in 2005 we still have to deal with these idiots.

Denise4925
Oct 3rd, 2005, 10:15 PM
Obviously showing statistics is not a racist thing to, but from what i can tell his statement had racist connotations. Also thus far no one has shown any statistics to show that black people commit more crimes than caucasians. Until there is evidence no one has a reason to accept it as the truth.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Denise4925
Oct 3rd, 2005, 10:19 PM
until these stats take into consideration the inequalities in the justice system itself (black vs white), they are useless, as far as I am concerned ...
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hablovah19 again.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Denise4925
Oct 3rd, 2005, 10:42 PM
Here is proof that blacks commit more murders proportionately

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

you can't pull the justice system excuse here. It lists the rates of offenders and victims, not those charged with murder.

13% of the population yet more than half the murders. what is your excuse infinit?
Why do you keep referring to and showing statistics on violent crimes? You keep talking about how blacks commit more homicides than whites, but you won't address the 9 million other criminal acts on the books of every state in the US. You have failed to prove that blacks proportionately commit more crimes than whites because you don't have the evidence to show it, nor can you pull it up in a search engine because a research on all crimes committed and who committed them would be too voluminous. It would take years to reach a conclusion. You may need to refer back to Bennett's theory, he said "crimes" not "violent crimes". Please try and stick to the issue.

lizchris
Oct 4th, 2005, 01:59 PM
The facts are more crimes are committed by whites than blacks, but blacks end up in jail more because whites get the benefit of plea bargaining their crimes down from felonies to misdemeanors because mesdemeanors do not haunt you for life like felonies do.

It is also factual that you are more likely to be a victim of a crime by someone of your own race.

Tratree
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Have you guys even bothered to read what he actually SAID instead of just arguing over numbers? His statement was in response to a caller who was talking about abortion and crime.

Reading comprehension=good

But I do know that it’s true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could — if that were your sole purpose — you could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, you know, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.

Infiniti2001
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:21 PM
Have you guys even bothered to read what he actually SAID instead of just arguing over numbers? His statement was in response to a caller who was talking about abortion and crime.

Reading comprehension=good

I personally read it, and find that it was simply the WRONG analogy to make. He could have used any other, instead he chose this. I don't care what anyone else says, he meant it --- he got an opportunity to spew forth his foul, rancid hate and he took it. I'm sorry, he is fair game, because it's typical of rethuglicans like him to hold other people accountable according to their own moral values :fiery:

Black Mamba.
Oct 4th, 2005, 04:27 PM
That wasn't the entire quote.

Following is a transcript from Bennett’s Sept. 28, syndicated program on Salem Radio Network, "Morning in America":

CALLER: I noticed the national media, you know, they talk a lot about the loss of revenue, or the inability of the government to fund Social Security, and I was curious, and I've read articles in recent months here, that the abortions that have happened since Roe v. Wade, the lost revenue from the people who have been aborted in the last 30-something years, could fund Social Security as we know it today. And the media just doesn't -- never touches this at all.

BENNETT: Assuming they're all productive citizens?

CALLER: Assuming that they are. Even if only a portion of them were, it would be an enormous amount of revenue.

BENNETT: Maybe, maybe, but we don't know what the costs would be, too. I think as -- abortion disproportionately occur among single women? No.

CALLER: I don't know the exact statistics, but quite a bit are, yeah.

BENNETT: All right, well, I mean, I just don't know. I would not argue for the pro-life position based on this, because you don't know. I mean, it cuts both -- you know, one of the arguments in this book Freakonomics that they make is that the declining crime rate, you know, they deal with this hypothesis, that one of the reasons crime is down is that abortion is up. Well --

CALLER: Well, I don't think that statistic is accurate.

BENNETT: Well, I don't think it is either, I don't think it is either, because first of all, there is just too much that you don't know. But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could – if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every Black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”

Bennett, in his CNN interview, said that his premise would have been equally true if he had said the same thing about aborting “single-parent moms” or “male babies.”

But, his critics say, the problem is that he didn’t; instead, he chose to perpetuate the stereotype that African Americans are the main perpetrators of crime.

lizchris
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Have you guys even bothered to read what he actually SAID instead of just arguing over numbers? His statement was in response to a caller who was talking about abortion and crime.

Reading comprehension=good


Not ture.

The caller was calling about abortion and Social Security.

Aquanetta
Oct 4th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Have you guys even bothered to read what he actually SAID instead of just arguing over numbers? His statement was in response to a caller who was talking about abortion and crime.

Reading comprehension=good

That was the very first thing I did.

And it's still racism disguised as a hypothetical response to a caller.

tennisbum79
Oct 4th, 2005, 07:31 PM
Since this is still going, I would like to put some more perspective on the person at the center this controversy.

In addition to my comments in post #107, I’d like to give a little more background on Bill Bennet.

As you already know, Mr Bennet was education secretary, then drug tsar.

This means he had to deal with people he has contempt for and sometimes hostility towards to.

Once he left government, he has been engaging into public intellectualism primarily dealing with social issues in general, black people in particular.

He is among a number of pseudo-academics on the right, whose obsession with race has kept them in the lime light in some kind of public intellectual role, which often is anything but intellectual. These are usually former university professors, whose intellectual discourse or writing could not pass mustard among their peers in a purely academic setting, because of the rigorous standards applied in examining such book or paper. You will find them in right wing think tanks. Bennet has been living in this word for a while, hopping from one short lived foundation to another.

Whenever an article or a book(is publihed) that tends to belittle black people as prone to crimes or amoral behavior, Mr Bennet has never been shy to lend his support.

And always as the poor man intellectual, he has often reverted to the same convoluted arguments to justify or support the idea advanced in those publications.

Bennet reasons for speaking out, some would say supporting these racist ideas, range from this is about America and public policy, therefore these ideas need to be discussed by all American, in a free, sensible, intellectual, truthful manner, without fear of political correctness cutting off the debate; to we want to help black people who want to help themselves. These books or articles appeal to the worst instinct of Americans. Listening to caller questions when these books ideas are discussed on radio, you can tell there is a built-in audience Mr Bennet is trying to reach. It is no accident that Rush Limbaugh defended him the next day.

Using this approach, Mr Bennet made countless appearances on TV and other forums, in vigorous support of Charles Murray’s book, The Bell Curve.

Of course, Mr Benntet likes to use his friendship with Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas and former Secretary Of state Collin Powell to inoculate himself with accusation for racism.

lakeway11
Oct 4th, 2005, 08:11 PM
C. Racism - An economic and social structure set up by one race of people to prevent the advancement of another race of people.

how does the black racist attitudes toward the Koreans fit into that definition?

lakeway11
Oct 4th, 2005, 08:15 PM
Only a white conservative could say something this stupid.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535204/

and only you can be so fuckin stupid to make such an inference from what was said

wta_zuperfann
Oct 4th, 2005, 10:17 PM
"And it's still racism disguised as a hypothetical response to a caller."

Exactly.

As for the problem of selective enforcement of the law, consider the pathetic example of hard core racist Nazi cop Mark Fuhrmann. During the OJ Simpson trial it was disclosed on tape that he boasted of manufacturing evidence in order to get Blacks and Hispanics convicted of crimes that they never committed. While many of these victims languished in jail for years, some actually died in prison. Not only do these type of police crimes skew crime statistics for minorities, it shows who the real criminals are and how they get away murder!

On top of all that, Fuhrmann's only punishment was a $ 250 fine for perjury while the taxpaying citizens of Los Angeles had to pay $ 25 million for his crimes and those of his fellow police criminals.

Where's the justice in all that???

*JR*
Oct 5th, 2005, 12:52 AM
and only you can be so fuckin stupid to make such an inference from what was said
I don't think you want 2B judged on the basis of intelligence where racial aspects are involved. (I'm not saying that you're a racist, just that you're "too quick to judge"). You post all kinds of "pre-determined arguments" from ideologues like Lew Rockwell, and crap like: http://wtaworld.com/showthread.php?t=195901 where (in post #8) I so thoroughly shredded your basic premise that you didn't even attempt an answer.

Justeenium
Oct 7th, 2005, 03:44 AM
Why do you keep referring to and showing statistics on violent crimes? You keep talking about how blacks commit more homicides than whites, but you won't address the 9 million other criminal acts on the books of every state in the US. You have failed to prove that blacks proportionately commit more crimes than whites because you don't have the evidence to show it, nor can you pull it up in a search engine because a research on all crimes committed and who committed them would be too voluminous. It would take years to reach a conclusion. You may need to refer back to Bennett's theory, he said "crimes" not "violent crimes". Please try and stick to the issue.
take a look at what Bennett said.
BENNETT: All right, well, I mean, I just don't know. I would not argue for the pro-life position based on this, because you don't know. I mean, it cuts both -- you know, one of the arguments in this book Freakonomics that they make is that the declining crime rate, you know, they deal with this hypothesis, that one of the reasons crime is down is that abortion is up. Well --

CALLER: Well, I don't think that statistic is accurate.

BENNETT: Well, I don't think it is either, I don't think it is either, because first of all, there is just too much that you don't know. But I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could – if that were your sole purpose, you could abort every Black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down. That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”

The "crime rate" which Freakonomics mentions is the rate of violent crime, as that is something you can measure. Mr Bennett is referring to that as well.
Also if you look at the statistics I posted blacks are more likely to committ property crime as well as violent crime, its these types of crimes you can measure because they have a victim, and victimless crimes generally don't get reported.

get over it Benett was right. Next time don't take something out of context and accuse a man of being racist just because he stated the truth. :retard:

Justeenium
Oct 7th, 2005, 03:47 AM
"And it's still racism disguised as a hypothetical response to a caller."

Exactly.

As for the problem of selective enforcement of the law, consider the pathetic example of hard core racist Nazi cop Mark Fuhrmann. During the OJ Simpson trial it was disclosed on tape that he boasted of manufacturing evidence in order to get Blacks and Hispanics convicted of crimes that they never committed. While many of these victims languished in jail for years, some actually died in prison. Not only do these type of police crimes skew crime statistics for minorities, it shows who the real criminals are and how they get away murder!

On top of all that, Fuhrmann's only punishment was a $ 250 fine for perjury while the taxpaying citizens of Los Angeles had to pay $ 25 million for his crimes and those of his fellow police criminals.

Where's the justice in all that???

could you post your source for you information in bold? I just read through the tape transcripts and I couldn't find anything about him "manufacturing evidence"

sounds like you're lying about Fuhrman just like you lied about white crime in Minnesota. And you have the nerve to call other people racist :rolleyes:

Denise4925
Oct 7th, 2005, 05:57 AM
take a look at what Bennett said.


The "crime rate" which Freakonomics mentions is the rate of violent crime, as that is something you can measure. Mr Bennett is referring to that as well.
Also if you look at the statistics I posted blacks are more likely to committ property crime as well as violent crime, its these types of crimes you can measure because they have a victim, and victimless crimes generally don't get reported.

get over it Benett was right. Next time don't take something out of context and accuse a man of being racist just because he stated the truth. :retard:
Well, excuse me for being more definitive. It's in my nature as a lawyer. However, I never said I agreed with Freakonomics and you're an idiot if you don't think that all crimes have a victim. There are no "victimless crimes". And, for your information there is a database for all crimes committed, i.e. they are reported, otherwise criminals wouldn't have records. :smash: :retard:

Benett is a racist and so are you.

ceiling_fan
Oct 7th, 2005, 09:17 AM
go home justeenium

Justeenium
Oct 7th, 2005, 07:37 PM
Well, excuse me for being more definitive. It's in my nature as a lawyer. However, I never said I agreed with Freakonomics and you're an idiot if you don't think that all crimes have a victim. There are no "victimless crimes". And, for your information there is a database for all crimes committed, i.e. they are reported, otherwise criminals wouldn't have records. :smash: :retard:

Benett is a racist and so are you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crime

crime ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krm)
n.
An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.

now taking the first definition and relating it to your post

you're an idiot if you don't think that all crimes have a victim.
If I speed on the highway who is the victim?

And, for your information there is a database for all crimes committed, i.e. they are reported, otherwise criminals wouldn't have records.
no, for documented crimes, not crimes comitted. If I speed and no one catches me, I just committed a crime (using first definition) but it won't be documented.

:smash: :retard:
yep, pretty much sums things up for you.

Benett is a racist and so are you
no, you are the racist. You (as well as several others in this thread) denied the truth about your race simply because the truth was negative.

I have no problem accepting any truths about whites.

Justeenium
Oct 7th, 2005, 07:38 PM
and denise are you a civil attourney or a criminal attourney? do you work for the state?

Justeenium
Oct 7th, 2005, 07:39 PM
go home justeenium
nope sorry i'm not. If you want to continue to be a close-minded ignorant lemming just ignore me. :)

lizchris
Oct 7th, 2005, 08:52 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crime



now taking the first definition and relating it to your post


If I speed on the highway who is the victim?

no, for documented crimes, not crimes comitted. If I speed and no one catches me, I just committed a crime (using first definition) but it won't be documented.


yep, pretty much sums things up for you.


no, you are the racist. You (as well as several others in this thread) denied the truth about your race simply because the truth was negative.

I have no problem accepting any truths about whites.


Good, then

:topic:

why are 60% of the people looking to adopt children white?
and
why don't they like to adopt American born black children?

What the fuck are they afraid of?

*JR*
Oct 7th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Good, then

:topic:

why are 60% of the people looking to adopt children white?
and
why don't they like to adopt American born black children?

What the fuck are they afraid of?
On this point, you're ignoring one thing: in many jurisdictions, whites face huge hurdles adopting black kids anyhow, due to the PC bias against interracial adoption by the social work establishment.

Black Mamba.
Oct 7th, 2005, 09:40 PM
On this point, you're ignoring one thing: in many jurisdictions, whites face huge hurdles adopting black kids anyhow, due to the PC bias against interracial adoption by the social work establishment.


Actually there is legistlation in place called MEPA better known as the Multiethnic Placement Act which prohibits social workers from using race as the sole purpose for child placement.

*JR*
Oct 7th, 2005, 09:59 PM
Actually there is legistlation in place called MEPA better known as the Multiethnic Placement Act which prohibits social workers from using race as the sole purpose for child placement.
Yes, MEPA has been around about a decade, and is supposed to limit racial considerations to "special circumstances" (like older children, who already have a strong "racial identity"). But there are just too many stories from (white) would-be adoptive parents (of non-white children) about the "hoops they've been made to jump through" for all of them to have been made up.

RVD
Oct 7th, 2005, 10:06 PM
This thread is SUPERB!!
SO many great counterpoints to an 'obviously' racist viewpoint. And I must commend so many here, and say thank you for being the fighters for justice that we so need in a time where the racists attitudes and injustices are so OUT FRONT for everyone to see today. Again, THANKS.

Now, topic-wise...

How is it that a statement like “Everyone knows that Blacks commit more crimes than Whites” be levied when so much to the contrary demonstrates otherwise. For instance, as already stated, Blacks do not make up the bulk of society, and could therefore never commit the higher percentage (overall). That is unless all Whites, Laotians, Japanese, Vietnamese, Latinos, Italians, etc... all decided to stop committing crimes themselves. This is the only way that it is statistically possible. Moreover, it's a known fact that not ALL crimes are reported. So which are kept under wraps? Certainly not those committed by Blacks. However, when blacks commit crimes, it's front page news. Perception is not always reality. All one has to do is research Bush's criminal history (or lack thereof) to understand this.

Again, as was already stated, the law (Especially in America) is a business enterprise DESIGNED to be biased in more ways than most can imagine. That is why a white male will is sentenced to a lesser degree than his black counterpart. It's the same reason why racial profiling isn't considered a racists policy. Ask yourself this question...
Have whites EVER complained of racial profiling? Why is that, if the laws are designed to be fair, impartial, and non-racists? Pretty simple stuff actually. And from a purely business standpoint, jails are the perfect substitute for slavery. Free Slave Labor is what built this country and made it the power it is today. And now, the American Justice System is the new plantation.

Incidentally, while we're at it, let's ask the following questions as well...

Who supplies the drugs within America?
The drugs (usually shipped in TONNAGE) must access an entry point to enter the US. Has a Black man EVER been in charge of Customs?

Historically, what segment of society has had the power to experiment on the black (or any other) sector of society WITH governmental backing? Then ask yourselves, did these individuals serve jail time when these crimes were discovered?

Why IS there a 'Presidential Pardon' if the laws in this country encompass everyone equally? Even those in high places of government and corporate entities? Is it because those who commit the most heinous of all crimes (those that affect large sectors of the society) know that they be exonerated or will have an 'official pardon' ? When all is said and done, any logically minded person will draw the obvious conclusion. All we have to do is look to history.

Denise4925
Oct 7th, 2005, 10:41 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crime



now taking the first definition and relating it to your post


If I speed on the highway who is the victim?

The state and the tax payers who pay for that road that you are destroying while speeding and the police officers who endanger their lives to pull you over, issue a citation and haul your ass to court, their families and any person on the same highway as you are that is in fear of imminent bodily injury or death as a result of your wreckless and unlawful driving.

no, for documented crimes, not crimes comitted. If I speed and no one catches me, I just committed a crime (using first definition) but it won't be documented.

True, but does that mean that there are no victims, just because you're not caught? Also, this argument does not lend well to the definition you gave of crime, i.e. "An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction." so, we're talking about convicted criminals and the crime rate as a result thereof.



no, you are the racist. You (as well as several others in this thread) denied the truth about your race simply because the truth was negative.

I have no problem accepting any truths about whites.
That is your truth as a racist, not mine. You, nor Benett, nor Freakonomics have proven that blacks commit more crimes than any other race. Do you even know what the word "racist" means? I suggest you look it up before you accuse someone of something you don't even know the meaning of.

wta_zuperfann
Oct 8th, 2005, 02:08 AM
White collar crime costs FAR more to society than does street crime:

http://www.paulsjusticepage.com/elite-deviance.htm


many examples are shown. Now suppose Blacks were the ones who committed these crimes, how would the right wing media report it???

wta_zuperfann
Oct 8th, 2005, 02:09 AM
more examples:


http://www.karisable.com/crwc.htm