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View Full Version : Kim Clijsters winning the US Open - Why can't I believe?


Volcana
Aug 27th, 2005, 04:36 AM
Clijsters has been so strong on Deco-Turf this year there almost isn't a #2. I can't recall an instance where a player was this strong on this particular surface (Deco-Turf II), yet I just didn't believe in her when the slam came around.

When Venus, Serena, Davenport, Hingis, Graf, Seles, etc dominated the summer hardcourts, you expected a US Open win. And, barring injury, it almost always happened. But this time, that dominant player is one I've seen repeatedly have braincramps in finals. Double-faults in tie-breakers, bad decisions, sudden outbreaks of poor execution. I can see her beating Serena in a QF, because Serena, to my eye, injured, overweight and not match tough.

But a night match in prime time vs Venus? No way. But it IS a F, and she beat VEnus a month ago. (Fatigue! Fatigue! Yada yada yada I know already.) If Clijsters plays Sharapova she'll beat her, but Henin-Hardenne or Davenport? In a final? A slam final? No. My betting hand won't put down money on that. But who else can you pick to win the tournament? (I know, I know. Venus is going to win the tournament, but let's pretend we're using reason here. :)) Clijsters entered six of the nine tournaments played on this surface. She won five of them. Including three of the four Tier I's. If Venus had that record, I'd be inviting all my friends over for the coronation.

How do you know when a player has learned to play her best when the lights are brightest?

How do you know if a player has learned to play her best when the lights are brightest?

There's a reason to question every other contender. The only reason to question Clijsters is her past performance in slam finals. Is the incredibly impressive performance she's put on in tournaments with the same surface as the US Open enough to put that aside?

CJ07
Aug 27th, 2005, 04:38 AM
If Venus/Serena play Clijsters in the QF, the winner of that match will win the tournament I think

Knizzle
Aug 27th, 2005, 04:40 AM
No it's not enough to put that aside. Just like with anyone else you just gotta wait and see what they'll do. As far as Lindsay last year, I knew she was playing the best of anyone, but I still didn't believe she would win. I always thought she would let the pressure get to her and lose. I know she got injured, but she played well to get up 3-0 in the third set of the SF, but mentally collapsed after that along with Sveta hitting great FH's.

Knizzle
Aug 27th, 2005, 04:41 AM
If Venus/Serena play Clijsters in the QF, the winner of that match will win the tournament I think

I agree, if Kim indeed does beat Venus that should shoot her confidence to the moon and she really should roll to the title.

tennnisfannn
Aug 27th, 2005, 05:18 AM
It feels like the longer a player takes to win big, the harder it is perceived to be. Amelie and lindsay have been a strong players these last couple years with the williams and belgians being non factors. Surely it was logical to expect them to share in the spoils but they didn't. Kim too has that aura around her too, she has everything to win a slam but for many people it does not mean she will win it. in so many ways she has to prove she can do it, just as lindsay and amelie still have to prove they can do it.
One can expect an ailing serena, even myskina to have an inpsired moment and go ahead and win the title before kim winning becomes a reality. Does not mean she cannot win, just means she remains to be convincing on the big stage.

Mattographer
Aug 27th, 2005, 06:21 AM
Still think she won't win the Open for some reasons :tape:

Volcana
Aug 27th, 2005, 06:21 AM
It feels like the longer a player takes to win big, the harder it is perceived to be. Amelie and lindsay have been a strong players these last couple years with the williams and belgians being non factors. Surely it was logical to expect them to share in the spoils but they didn't.But they differ.

Mauresmo only has the one slam final. She's so good, we've never used the word 'fluke' before, but it's been almost six years. She hasn't made another final. maybe she's truly a second teir player. Impressive, but not truly elite.

Davenport, OTOH, has three GG titles, and two finals this year. At least four or five finals since her last GS win. So in her case, it's easy to still believe.

What makes Clijsters unique is the WAY she lost four GS finals. In her very first, she double-faulted a couple time in crucial third set she lost 10-12. That set the tone. She simply faulters under pressure. I try to imagine her winning a GS title constantly playing 'uphill' as Venus did at Wimbledon this year, and it's laughable. Any other time? yes. Not in a GS.

In fairness, not having to fuck Lleyton Hewitt (especially when you're underage) has to improve the situation.

jenn
Aug 27th, 2005, 06:34 AM
.
What makes Clijsters unique is the WAY she lost four GS finals. In her very first, she double-faulted a couple time in crucial third set she lost 10-12. That set the tone. She simply faulters under pressure. I try to imagine her winning a GS title constantly playing 'uphill' as Venus did at Wimbledon this year, and it's laughable. Any other time? yes. Not in a GS.

The course of tennis history for the last four years probably would have been completely different if she had have won that first final. What was she 2 pts from the match 12 times? That final fucked her up big time. Someone may like to change my mind, but I don't think she's won a big three set match against an elite player in a GS since. Two losses to LD this year, a loss to JHH last year, a loss to each of Venus and Serena in '03, tight losses to Mauresmo and Capriati in '02. All matches she could have won. Has she had any good wins in GS where top players have actually applied the blow torch to her?

In fairness, not having to fuck Lleyton Hewitt (especially when you're underage) has to improve the situation.

Actually she's probably missing his 9 inch dick. It's hard to find a guy with a monster cock like his.

Ceecor
Aug 27th, 2005, 06:37 AM
If she dodges injuries and doesnt win the USO this year..even if she perferms well...she will be around double figs for the AO....will be getting a little like mesmo..having had way to many chances.

Brαm
Aug 27th, 2005, 11:01 AM
Oh no! Volcana doesn't believe in Kim's abilities :sad: My world is crushed :(

Dementirilenko
Aug 27th, 2005, 11:10 AM
I think that Kim will win this year. She shows such a stong tennis in the last weeks and months. She will beat Venus if they will play against each other.

thekimfan
Aug 27th, 2005, 11:12 AM
If she doesn't win this time, I'm a bit afraid, cause she's really the game to do it... I wish her all the best :)

blamoh
Aug 27th, 2005, 11:28 AM
This is tennis. Many fans believe Clijsters will beat Venus. How sure are you
guys.
Firsrly Gandslam is different from tier 1, 2, or 3. And Clijsters is good at
winning those. But grandslam is a different ball game and she is not been
able to win it for the past four visits at the finals.
My guess is Clijsters will win if she is able to beat Venus whom I know will
be the one to face her and Henin on the other side of the draw to be defeated by some unknown player in the drawn.
But again here comes Davenport. Clijsters' head-head with Davenport in
grandslam is not good if I am correct. So prediction of some fans about
Kim's victory at the last grandslam of the year may prove otherwise.

honeyke
Aug 27th, 2005, 11:36 AM
iŽm sure sheŽll win.this american summer gave her a lot of confidence and she knows that she has a big chance...obviously,iŽll cheer for her!

saki
Aug 27th, 2005, 12:06 PM
You can't ever know that a player has learnt to play her best in the biggest arenas of the sport until they do. All you can do is wait and see.

terjw
Aug 27th, 2005, 12:06 PM
iŽm sure sheŽll win.this american summer gave her a lot of confidence and she knows that she has a big chance...obviously,iŽll cheer for her!

I'll be cheering for her as well. She definitely has a great chance but I wish I had your absolute faith. Lots of other players (Justine, Venus etc) seem to play much better in GS tourneys. I put Kim to win in a poll but I think it is too close to call - so I voted with my heart.

Xanadu11
Aug 27th, 2005, 12:10 PM
I have a feeling (and i never do when it comes to Kim), that this is her time...

terjw
Aug 27th, 2005, 12:30 PM
The course of tennis history for the last four years probably would have been completely different if she had have won that first final. What was she 2 pts from the match 12 times? That final fucked her up big time. Someone may like to change my mind, but I don't think she's won a big three set match against an elite player in a GS since. Two losses to LD this year, a loss to JHH last year, a loss to each of Venus and Serena in '03, tight losses to Mauresmo and Capriati in '02. All matches she could have won. Has she had any good wins in GS where top players have actually applied the blow torch to her?

I don't really believe that first GS final against Jen changed the course of history. She wasn't really expected to win it. Jen was the overwhelming favourite. Then came 2 years of dominance from the WS. I think that 2001 RG final it was pretty well all forgotten. The really horrible GS which did the most damage was RG 2003. But I see the story of the Belgiums as:

Justine really raising her game in 2003 - she won against Serena.
Justine raising her game for the majors
Kim getting closer and closer to beating Justine in a GS.
If Kim hadn't got that wrist injury I truly believe she would have had a GS by now.

Volcana
Aug 27th, 2005, 01:22 PM
If Kim hadn't got that wrist injury I truly believe she would have had a GS by now.That's quite likely. But part of being a champion, as we heard so often in '99-'00, is staying on the court. That aside, I don't think it's crippling if she doesn't win it this year. HOW you lose can important. In the OZ final, Davenport ... lost something. He rfocus, her self-belief, something. In the Wimbledon final, Davenport couldn't have played better. Literally. She just came up against Venus on a day when Venus was totally in control of herself.

Similarly, if Clijsters loses while playing well and making good decisions, no sweat. If she putting 2nd serves in the net during tie-breakers, and trying drop shots from ten feet behind the baseline .... that's not the player who diminated the summer.

Mudbone
Aug 27th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player you lug heads!!!! Just look at the careers...Venus rules New York...It doesn't matter whether Kim chokes or not...Venus is the better tennis player and a true champion!!!! Clijsters is queen of tier events....

jan.
Aug 27th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player you lug heads!!!! Just look at the careers...Venus rules New York...It doesn't matter whether Kim chokes or not...Venus is the better tennis player and a true champion!!!! Clijsters is queen of tier events....
And your basing this on careers? I think recent hardcourt results is a safer bet.

Steffica Greles
Aug 27th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Clijsters has been so strong on Deco-Turf this year there almost isn't a #2. I can't recall an instance where a player was this strong on this particular surface (Deco-Turf II), yet I just didn't believe in her when the slam came around.

When Venus, Serena, Davenport, Hingis, Graf, Seles, etc dominated the summer hardcourts, you expected a US Open win. And, barring injury, it almost always happened. But this time, that dominant player is one I've seen repeatedly have braincramps in finals. Double-faults in tie-breakers, bad decisions, sudden outbreaks of poor execution. I can see her beating Serena in a QF, because Serena, to my eye, injured, overweight and not match tough.

But a night match in prime time vs Venus? No way. But it IS a F, and she beat VEnus a month ago. (Fatigue! Fatigue! Yada yada yada I know already.) If Clijsters plays Sharapova she'll beat her, but Henin-Hardenne or Davenport? In a final? A slam final? No. My betting hand won't put down money on that. But who else can you pick to win the tournament? (I know, I know. Venus is going to win the tournament, but let's pretend we're using reason here. :)) Clijsters entered six of the nine tournaments played on this surface. She won five of them. Including three of the four Tier I's. If Venus had that record, I'd be inviting all my friends over for the coronation.

How do you know when a player has learned to play her best when the lights are brightest?

How do you know if a player has learned to play her best when the lights are brightest?

There's a reason to question every other contender. The only reason to question Clijsters is her past performance in slam finals. Is the incredibly impressive performance she's put on in tournaments with the same surface as the US Open enough to put that aside?

I agree that if Kim doesn't win this US Open, there's a strong, although by no means conclusive possibility that Kim will NEVER win a slam. Particularly as that wrist injury won't just go away. It could flare up again at any moment, so her future in the game is questionable.

Unlike Volcana, I don't put as much emphasis on her losses in big matches. She lost to Capriati twice, once in a final where I think she was outlasted. It's all very well to say in retropect that she was two points from victory and she choked - I saw that match at the time, and nobody was saying she choked. The other time was in the semi-finals of the 2002 Australian Open, when once again I think she was ultimately outplayed.

Then she lost in the semi-finals to Serena Williams. Okay, so that was a choke. But many players including Justine lost to Serena when they'd had chances. Serena was the most intimidating presence since Graf. Was.
She then lost 3 straight slam finals to Justine. I saw all three of them and I have to say, I don't think Kim played that badly in the latter two. She was just outplayed by someone with more weapons.

Her loss in Paris to Lindsay was forgiveable, in my opinion, because she wasn't really expecting to be able to play the tournament, and therefore probably wasn't as focused on the match at a set and a break up as she should have been. I'm sounding dreadfully wet, I know.

But I think my point is that I don't think Kim's been good enough in most of the matches she's lost on the big stage. Yet somehow she's been able to pull off wins in the tour events. Some may say that's because she doesn't play her best in slams, others will simply say that other players don't bring their a-games to the smaller arenas.

We'll see. I think Kim has every reason to win the US Open this year. Two years ago there was someone clearly just a little bit better than her - Justine Henin. This year there's, for the first time, nobody who has as good a claim to this grandslam title in my opinion.

If Kim doesn't win it, then I think the press hype that she's a choker may get to the point that she actually believes it, and her opponents start to believe it. That can be an incredibly calming thing, when you think your opponent doesn't have the bottle - makes you hang on.

Regardless, I hope Kim wins it. It would be terrible for the game's history if a player not just with her ability, but with her record failed to win a major. There's nobody -- not Sukova, not Fernandez, not Mauresmo -- who has accomplished anywhere near what she has done.

But then again, maybe not winning a slam would make her stand out in the history books more than if she was a one-slam wonder? People would look at the rest of her record and think What a good player - such a shame she never quite made it. Yet if she wins and then never repeats, she may just melt away into historical obscurity.

But Kim won't see it like that, and I hope she doesn't.

Chrissie-fan
Aug 27th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Let's not forget that Ivan Lendl lost four Grand Slam finals before he won the French in 1984. At the end of his career he had won eight Slams. Of course this doesn't mean that the same thing will happen with Kim,but although I agree that she has her problems,I don't think they are as severe as those of Novotna or Mauresmo. I wouldn't write her off just yet. :smoke:


What makes Clijsters unique is the WAY she lost four GS finals. In her very first, she double-faulted a couple time in crucial third set she lost 10-12. That set the tone. She simply faulters under pressure. I try to imagine her winning a GS title constantly playing 'uphill' as Venus did at Wimbledon this year, and it's laughable. Any other time? yes. Not in a GS.

Foot_Fault
Aug 27th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player you lug heads!!!! Just look at the careers...Venus rules New York...It doesn't matter whether Kim chokes or not...Venus is the better tennis player and a true champion!!!! Clijsters is queen of tier events....
:rolleyes:
Opinions are Respected....Ignorance is Not.

vwfan
Aug 27th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player
Exactly. Venus has more weapons, is a better athlete, has the mental edge overall and specifically with respect to Kim. No amount of splits will give Kim the victory if Venus is there to play and is playing to win. A Game to A Game, Venus wins. It's as simple as that.
Hopefully, the match will happen and both players can walk away feeling that they brought their best games.

ans
Aug 27th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player you lug heads!!!! Just look at the careers...Venus rules New York...It doesn't matter whether Kim chokes or not...Venus is the better tennis player and a true champion!!!! Clijsters is queen of tier events....

yes, but kim will be tired after playing (and winning) all those tournaments:angel: :p

Brαm
Sep 12th, 2005, 08:37 AM
Venus will beat Clijsters in the quarters for one reason only....She is the better player you lug heads!!!! Just look at the careers...Venus rules New York...It doesn't matter whether Kim chokes or not...Venus is the better tennis player and a true champion!!!! Clijsters is queen of tier events....
Which Tier is the US Open? :)

marmite1
Sep 12th, 2005, 08:38 AM
Kim is on good form, it's plain and simple.

Yasmine
Sep 12th, 2005, 08:55 AM
Oh no! Volcana doesn't believe in Kim's abilities :sad: My world is crushed :(
:lol: I bet he might have changed her mind now;) :devil:

Yasmine
Sep 12th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Exactly. Venus has more weapons, is a better athlete, has the mental edge overall and specifically with respect to Kim.
Venus did have yes but :devil: Kim had the physical AND THE MENTAL edge in that match and the next one and the final :cool: that's what her name is on the trophy now... so I think we can all reconsider Kim's mental abilities now, she's proven a lot of people wrong :angel:

fifiricci
Sep 12th, 2005, 09:00 AM
Ouch! Its always embarrassing for the thread starter when these custard pies start being thrown. So the moral must be: the thread starter shouldn't have started the thread! :lol:


Tut tut for not having enuf Kimmy belief! You've been custard pied but you certainly aint "clijstered" (little in the know joke for some CCLers there) ;)

Rub
Sep 12th, 2005, 09:13 AM
didn't she win? :wavey:

vutt
Sep 12th, 2005, 09:57 AM
So first time Volcana was wrong! Pigs do fly after all ;)

Gallofa
Sep 12th, 2005, 10:31 AM
Nah. It isn't the first time. Won't be the last either. ;)

So you better believe it now, girl.

Sam L
Sep 12th, 2005, 10:37 AM
Volcana's a man btw.

kabuki
Sep 12th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Go Kim! :D

starr
Sep 12th, 2005, 01:39 PM
:woohoo: Kimmy!!

:nerner: Mudbone

RAA
Sep 12th, 2005, 02:15 PM
CONGRATS TO KIM!!
I have tosay, I WANTED her to win( well I wanted Mary P to win too) but wasn't sure she could do it. i'm glad she proved me and many others wrong. plus she had a fantastic speech.

vogus
Sep 12th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Volcana asked the right questions when he started this thread. But i don't think he got the answers he was looking for. It must not have been very nice for him to watch Venus going down to Kim under those bright lights. You have to give him credit though because he correctly called the Clisters-Sharapova semi.