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View Full Version : Venus 2005 vs the elite (sort of)


Volcana
Aug 17th, 2005, 07:07 AM
AUSTRALIAN OPEN.. R16 MOLIK*....... L 7-5 7-6
ANTWERP.......... QTR CLIJSTERS.... W 6-2 6-3
ANTWERP.......... FNL MAURESMO..... L 4-6 7-5 6-4
MIAMI............ QTR WILLIAMS, S.. W 6-1 7-6
MIAMI............ SMI SHARAPOVA.... L 6-4 6-3
AMELIA ISLAND.... QTR DAVENPORT.... L 1-6 6-3 6-4
WIMBLEDON........ QTR PIERCE**..... W 6-0 7-6
WIMBLEDON........ SMI SHARAPOVA.... W 7-6 6-1
WIMBLEDON........ FNL DAVENPORT.... W 4-6 7-6 9-7
STANFORD......... FML CLIJSTERS.... L 7-5 6-2

*Molik isn't an elite player, but I hated to leave out a slam result.
** Can't truly call Pierce an elite player either, though she HAS had a VERY good year.
Nothing's locked in stone, but things are trending in the right direction. Especially if Clijsters is in the other half of the US Open draw.

timray
Aug 17th, 2005, 07:18 AM
Pierce is not an elite player.

blamoh
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:01 AM
If Venus being the 'player' against the elite then who is Venus?
I think if you don't have a dictionary, then use a common sense.

pigam
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:06 AM
people people pplease don't be soooooo difficult all the time!!!!!
Volcana, thanx for posting these results, of course Venus fans know them and they're very happy to see the positive evolution.
I agree you include Pierce, she is definetly an elite player this year. and that match against Pierce was one Venus' very best in the last 2 years. she showed everyone what she's (still) capable of and it gave her te belief to go and win a GS. Important match, imho.

Sam L
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:09 AM
The loss to Clijsters still puzzle me. I don't know how she could've lost that after her Wimbledon win. She really needs to rest and make sure she's ready for the Open. Because if she is, it's her slam to lose.

rikvanlooy
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:16 AM
[font=Courier New][color=magenta]Nothing's locked in stone, but things are trending in the right direction. Especially if Clijsters is in the other half of the US Open draw.

I was impressed by the way she beat Clijsters in Antwerp. Clijsters didn't stand a chance against her.

I was surprised by her loss against Mauresmo.

tennisIlove09
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:35 AM
The loss to Clijsters still puzzle me. I don't know how she could've lost that after her Wimbledon win. She really needs to rest and make sure she's ready for the Open. Because if she is, it's her slam to lose.

Im not surprised at all that she lost to Kim. Think about it.

2 major weeks in London
No rest, tons of promotion for the reality show
Federation Cup
WTT
Stanford

that's 5-6 weeks of hardcore tennis. She was over played, over travelled. You cant play Kim on one leg and expect to win. She's too consistent and gets too many balls back.

I'm not too worried about Venus. She raised her game at Wimbledon, and if she's 100% healthy, I'd put her as the favorite for the US Open.

sartrista7
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:48 AM
You include the win over Pierce but not the win over Myskina?

Pierce is not an elite player. She hasn't beaten anyone in the top 10 this year yet, apart from a tanking Davenport at RG.

pigam
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:00 AM
You include the win over Pierce but not the win over Myskina?

Pierce is not an elite player. She hasn't beaten anyone in the top 10 this year yet, apart from a tanking Davenport at RG.
but what has Myskina done against the top 10 this year :sad:
Don't you think Pierce's year/level is at least as good as Myskina's.
But ok, victory against Myskina should be included. V had a good week in antwerp :yeah:

hingis-seles
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:26 AM
Venus has had a below average year yet again, if you exclude her Wimbledon win. But that's a huge result in itself. It wasn't like everyone fell apart and she picked up the pieces. She went out there and beat up on all the players. That match against Maria gives me goosebumps, even now. The first set was just :eek: I have never seen a better display of tennis from Venus.

Having said all that, thanks.

sartrista7
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:33 AM
but what has Myskina done against the top 10 this year :sad:
Don't you think Pierce's year/level is at least as good as Myskina's.
But ok, victory against Myskina should be included. V had a good week in antwerp :yeah:

Well yes, Nastya's been shit this year, but unlike Pierce she's beaten top ten players and been ranked in the top 10 herself. Elite players in slumps are still elite players.

spike83
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Pierce IS a Elite player, or how do you call someone that's won 2 GS in her career and at the age of 30 plays in a grand-slam final ...
Most of the current players would love having a career like Pierce's.
And concerning Myskina, she also is a Elite player, when her game is on, she knocks the hell out of everyone.
Venus will loose early in the 4th or quarters of the US Open, you'll see ...
perhaps to mary :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

TomTennis
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:54 AM
The loss to Clijsters still puzzle me. I don't know how she could've lost that after her Wimbledon win. She really needs to rest and make sure she's ready for the Open. Because if she is, it's her slam to lose.

she was fatigued, and im guessing that has caused her body to contract the flu.

Even though she didnt play any tournaments during the weeks from Wimbledon to Stanford, she was on different planes everyday, doing os much media coverage, shows, ads, etc etc etc!

blamoh
Aug 17th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Pierce IS a Elite player, or how do you call someone that's won 2 GS in her career and at the age of 30 plays in a grand-slam final ...
Most of the current players would love having a career like Pierce's.
And concerning Myskina, she also is a Elite player, when her game is on, she knocks the hell out of everyone.
Venus will loose early in the 4th or quarters of the US Open, you'll see ...
perhaps to mary :devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

It will be better if you write german to convey what you mean by Venus
going out in the 4th of quarters of the USopen.
In term of elite player on wta tour, no one will suggest Pierce over Venus.
Venus is and will remain an elite player until she retires.
If Venus is well Peirce doesn't stand a chance against her on all surfaces.

Paneru
Aug 17th, 2005, 11:13 AM
Things have been trending for Venus
since the Australian Open as I have
said time and time again.

Really since the exhibitions in
Hong Kong.

I noticed 1st and foremost, her 2nd serve
improvement from just spinning everything
in to the forehand.

The dramatic raise in her level in just a
few short weeks from the Australia to Antwerp.

And despite some of the losses to top players
she was becoming more and more competitive.

Even in Paris where she struggled, you saw
the big improvement in the forehand.

Her form began really gelling in Antwerp and
all she was missing was the mental belief
against the Top players and being able to
back up beating one with another.

That all came together for her at Wimbledon
where I just knew that it would.

If Venus can maintain her health and focus
(blessing in diguise that she's getting this rest)
she has an amazing shot of repeating her follow-up
to Wimbledon in winning the US Open as she did in
00' & 01'.

Volcana
Aug 17th, 2005, 01:26 PM
You include the win over Pierce but not the win over Myskina?You notice the ** after Pierce's name with the notation below the chart '** Can't truly call Pierce an elite player either, though she HAS had a VERY good year.'

Myskina's overall year is making the win over her look as easily the result of Mykina's poor form as any improvement by Venus. Pierce's overall good year is making the Wimbledon win over her look good. Pierce has performed well on clay, grass and hard courts. Also reverse the result of that match and look how bad Venus' year looks! One win over Clijsters, one win over a not-in-tip-top-shape Serena. And a pile of losses to the other elite players.

vwfan
Aug 17th, 2005, 02:37 PM
You cant play Kim on one leg and expect to win. She's too consistent and gets too many balls back. Absolutely. The only times that Kim has beaten Venus and Serena is when she got them after someone else had taken them to three tough sets: Venus at Stanford and Serena at YEC. That is why Venus' loss to Kim was a fluke in her otherwise consistent progression back to the top of the game. She beat the #1 and #2 player in route to winning the top prize in tennis. And neither gave her the match. She took it. You can't discount this run no matter what.
Again, it reminds me of how much tennis is mental. In the Stanford final, Kim not only had the physical edge (she could run more balls down than a tired Venus after a three set match where she came back from triple match point down), but the mental edge (Venus was still processing the year of disappointing results in contrast to her Wimbie run in the midst of a hectic schedule and several time changes and Kim was fresh and determined after her 4th round loss to davenport). Advantage Kim. Honestly, if Kim couldn't beat Venus under those circumstances that would really say a lot about her and her game. She'd have no confidence: can't beat an injured Venus and can't beat an exhausted Venus.
I am not worried about Venus if she has been able to rest and recover and is now putting in the hours on the practice courts. She is one of the favorites for the Open, if not the favorite. She has the best record at the Open among all active players bar none. She'll be ready! And it won't even matter if Kim is in her draw. The Stanford final was on Venus' racket and that does not take anything from Kim. She simply does not have the game to beat Venus Williams on the big stage on hardcourts.

moon
Aug 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM
Absolutely. The only times that Kim has beaten Venus and Serena is when she got them after someone else had taken them to three tough sets: Venus at Stanford and Serena at YEC. That is why Venus' loss to Kim was a fluke in her otherwise consistent progression back to the top of the game. She beat the #1 and #2 player in route to winning the top prize in tennis. And neither gave her the match. She took it. You can't discount this run no matter what.
Again, it reminds me of how much tennis is mental. In the Stanford final, Kim not only had the physical edge (she could run more balls down than a tired Venus after a three set match where she came back from triple match point down), but the mental edge (Venus was still processing the year of disappointing results in contrast to her Wimbie run in the midst of a hectic schedule and several time changes and Kim was fresh and determined after her 4th round loss to davenport). Advantage Kim. Honestly, if Kim couldn't beat Venus under those circumstances that would really say a lot about her and her game. She'd have no confidence: can't beat an injured Venus and can't beat an exhausted Venus.
I am not worried about Venus if she has been able to rest and recover and is now putting in the hours on the practice courts. She is one of the favorites for the Open, if not the favorite. She has the best record at the Open among all active players bar none. She'll be ready! And it won't even matter if Kim is in her draw. The Stanford final was on Venus' racket and that does not take anything from Kim. She simply does not have the game to beat Venus Williams on the big stage on hardcourts.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing a Venus vs. Kimmy final at the USO. :)

vwfan
Aug 17th, 2005, 04:16 PM
I actually wouldn't mind seeing a Venus vs. Kimmy final at the USO. me, either. though I would have to root for Venus and would be sad for Kim to lose another final.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 17th, 2005, 08:36 PM
You notice the ** after Pierce's name with the notation below the chart '** Can't truly call Pierce an elite player either, though she HAS had a VERY good year.'

Myskina's overall year is making the win over her look as easily the result of Mykina's poor form as any improvement by Venus. Pierce's overall good year is making the Wimbledon win over her look good. Pierce has performed well on clay, grass and hard courts. Also reverse the result of that match and look how bad Venus' year looks! One win over Clijsters, one win over a not-in-tip-top-shape Serena. And a pile of losses to the other elite players.


"Myskina, who played her first WTA final of the year, had been the favorite to win her 10th tour title after Wimbledon champion Venus Williams withdrew because of the flu.



Updated on Sunday, Aug 14, "

Myskina was the favorite, AFTER Venus Williams withdrew...

Denise4925
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:08 PM
The loss to Clijsters still puzzle me. I don't know how she could've lost that after her Wimbledon win. She really needs to rest and make sure she's ready for the Open. Because if she is, it's her slam to lose.
You just said it. She had no rest. She had just played 15 hours earlier.

Denise4925
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:11 PM
she was fatigued, and im guessing that has caused her body to contract the flu.

Even though she didnt play any tournaments during the weeks from Wimbledon to Stanford, she was on different planes everyday, doing os much media coverage, shows, ads, etc etc etc!
She didn't play any full tourneys but she played Fed Cup in Russia and WTT before Stanford.

TeamUSA#1
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Things are def. trending in the right direction for Vee against the elite. The only thing that worries me is that those last 3 wins all came on grass, argueably her best surface, and then she lost to Clijsters (who BTW is playing some awesome hard court tennis) on hard courts......

Is she playing anything before the start of the USO???? She should play the Pilot Pen

darrinbaker00
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:21 PM
You just said it. She had no rest. She had just played 15 hours earlier.
If Venus looked tired to you guys on TV, you can imagine how she looked to me in person. Having said that, I don't think Venus would have beaten Kim that day even if Venus were in her July 2 condition. Kim was just ON that day.

Denise4925
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:23 PM
If Venus looked tired to you guys on TV, you can imagine how she looked to me in person. Having said that, I don't think Venus would have beaten Kim that day even if Venus were in her July 2 condition. Kim was just ON that day.
I think I saw you in the stands. Did you have on a white shirt with a red hat?

darrinbaker00
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:31 PM
I think I saw you in the stands. Did you have on a white shirt with a red hat?
Nope. I was wearing a blue-and-white Fila cap.

Denise4925
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Nope. I was wearing a blue-and-white Fila cap.
Were you sitting behind Vee's side of the court in the last game of the second set?

I was looking for you and I thought I saw you and I may be mistaken about the color of the hat. Did you have a white shirt on?

darrinbaker00
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:48 PM
Were you sitting behind Vee's side of the court in the last game of the second set?

I was looking for you and I thought I saw you and I may be mistaken about the color of the hat. Did you have a white shirt on?
I did have a white shirt on, but I was not sitting behind the baseline.

Denise4925
Aug 17th, 2005, 09:55 PM
I did have a white shirt on, but I was not sitting behind the baseline.
:( Well, that wasn't you then.

joao
Aug 17th, 2005, 10:27 PM
If Venus looked tired to you guys on TV, you can imagine how she looked to me in person. Having said that, I don't think Venus would have beaten Kim that day even if Venus were in her July 2 condition. Kim was just ON that day.

Venus served for the 1st set (and was 2 points away from winning it) ... remember? But she couldn't get it together ... not because kim was ON that day though :wavey:

Babolatpro880
Aug 17th, 2005, 10:32 PM
If Venus looked tired to you guys on TV, you can imagine how she looked to me in person. Having said that, I don't think Venus would have beaten Kim that day even if Venus were in her July 2 condition. Kim was just ON that day.
Kim was far from on, very far. The first set was very scratchy from both players, and Kim managed to pull it out, winning the last three games. Kim played a bit better in the second, but Venus barely tried. I think Kim lost only a handful of points on her serve in the entire second set.

Anyway, as painful as it is to say this, if Venus and Kim play in the Open, and Kim's playing the way she was in Los Angeles last week, Venus will win.

Other than Kim, her biggest threats at the US Open are probably Davenport, Sharapova, and Pierce on current form. If Pierce plays like she did up until 6-0, 5-1 Sugiyama, very few people stand a chance. However, all three of these players are struggling with injuries. Overall, I'll be very disappointed if Kim and Venus end up close to each other in the US Open draw, because they're the two best players going right now.

Marshmallow
Aug 18th, 2005, 12:02 AM
Are the result really trending? I think it's too early too tell. I'd be so happy if Venus was to just start destroying people on court from now on, and certainly, in the early rounds of stanford, she was very close. But Wimbledon was just one run.

Venus never lost it, but she couldn't put it all togethe for consecutive matches. Miami and Antwerp are good examples. I definetly think Wimbeldon gave her that very huge boost she needed confidence wise. I think without that crown she wasn't exactly doubting herself, but maybe went for too much in matches. I remember watching the Sharapova match in Miami, and it was like Venus was ACTING confident. She wanted to really prove something, but it seemed on think ice. When the pressure was applied at 4-5, she cracked. She was playing well (as we saw against serena), but i think she wasn't as mentally tough.

I can't explain wimbledon, but i'm so happy it happened. She put it all together. Her first real test was Pierce i feel. The going go tough, but she didn't break and her reaction after she won told it all. And i think THAT was the turning point. She knew she could do it. She did what she could have done in Miami to Maria, and was confident enough to battle past davenport.

If i look at it this way, definetly Venus' result should be trending. I think her confidence was the final part, but we have to wait and see. I admit it, i'm a coward Venus fan. I can only watch her matches confidently after i know she's won. I honestly think the flu won't stop her from fighting for the USO crown. Her rejuvinated confidence should keep her tough in pressure moments.

See.. i get so nervous. .Someone slap me

Good luck to her.

[She's beaten Ana Ivanovic too - which is something to be proud of IMO]

Volcana
Aug 18th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Absolutely. The only times that Kim has beaten Venus and Serena is when she got them after someone else had taken them to three tough sets: Venus at Stanford and Serena at YEC. That is why Venus' loss to Kim was a fluke in her otherwise consistent progression back to the top of the game.I think this is another example of an overuse of the word 'fluke'. I choose to give Kim credit for the win. That won't stop me from picking Venus when next they meet.

Havok
Aug 18th, 2005, 01:17 AM
You include the win over Pierce but not the win over Myskina?

Pierce is not an elite player. She hasn't beaten anyone in the top 10 this year yet, apart from a tanking Davenport at RG.
:retard: Pierce HIT Lindsay off the court at RG. She also beat Schnyder twice this year, she was definitely top 10 at the French, not sure about San Diego. Pierce is an elite player this year no doubt. Not including Myskina as an elite player is correct. Look at the race, she's WAY down on the list, while Mary is sitting pretty at #8.

Havok
Aug 18th, 2005, 01:24 AM
It will be better if you write german to convey what you mean by Venus
going out in the 4th of quarters of the USopen.
In term of elite player on wta tour, no one will suggest Pierce over Venus.
Venus is and will remain an elite player until she retires.
If Venus is well Peirce doesn't stand a chance against her on all surfaces.
If Pierce is also playing well, I would definitely give her a shot on the clay courts. She'll lose on anything else though.

sartrista7
Aug 18th, 2005, 09:46 AM
:retard: Pierce HIT Lindsay off the court at RG. She also beat Schnyder twice this year, she was definitely top 10 at the French, not sure about San Diego. Pierce is an elite player this year no doubt. Not including Myskina as an elite player is correct. Look at the race, she's WAY down on the list, while Mary is sitting pretty at #8.

:retard: It isn't hard to hit someone who isn't trying off the court. Schnyder hasn't been top 10 at any point this year. Myskina's 2005 may have sucked but at the time Venus beat her, she was ranked 6 and the reigning RG champion, remind me again how long it's been since Pierce could be called either of those things? Half a decade, that's right.

Reigning Slam champion = elite player, no matter how deep the slump.

Babolatpro880
Aug 18th, 2005, 01:54 PM
:retard: It isn't hard to hit someone who isn't trying off the court. Schnyder hasn't been top 10 at any point this year. Myskina's 2005 may have sucked but at the time Venus beat her, she was ranked 6 and the reigning RG champion, remind me again how long it's been since Pierce could be called either of those things? Half a decade, that's right.

Reigning Slam champion = elite player, no matter how deep the slump.
Yes, Schnyder HAS been top ten this year. I believe it was after she reached the Rome final.

http://www.wtatour.com/players/playerprofiles/PlayerActivity.asp?PlayerID=190519

Look at her results. She was number ten in the world at the French Open. Which is when Pierce beat her.

DA FOREHAND
Aug 18th, 2005, 02:05 PM
:retard: It isn't hard to hit someone who isn't trying off the court. Schnyder hasn't been top 10 at any point this year. Myskina's 2005 may have sucked but at the time Venus beat her, she was ranked 6 and the reigning RG champion, remind me again how long it's been since Pierce could be called either of those things? Half a decade, that's right.

Reigning Slam champion = elite player, no matter how deep the slump.


Lindsay hasn't won a slam in half a decade..what's your point?