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Calimero377
May 24th, 2005, 11:40 PM
A clay-court slam and a grass-court slam within 6 weeks - is there a bigger challenge than to have success in both tournaments?

Which players made both finals in the same year how often (post-WW2)?

1) Graf 8 times
2) Evert 6 times
3) Navi 5 times
4) Court 3 times
4) Hart 3 times
6) Goolagong twice
6) Connolly twice
6) ASV twice
9) Hingis, Seles, Serena, Venus etc. once


:worship:

Stamp Paid
May 25th, 2005, 12:14 AM
Just making the final is nothing....as shown by Serena at Wimbledon 2004 & Elena at RG & USO.

WINNING both is whats significant. What are those stats?

TennisFan75
May 25th, 2005, 12:21 AM
WINNING both is whats significant. What are those stats?

Connolly 1953, 1954
Court 1970
Goolagong 1971
King 1972
Evert 1974
Navratilova 1982, 1984
Graf 1988, 1993, 1995, 1996
Serena 2002

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 12:34 AM
Connolly 1953, 1954
Court 1970
Goolagong 1971
King 1972
Evert 1974
Navratilova 1982, 1984
Graf 1988, 1993, 1995, 1996
Serena 2002
Steffi really has one, 88 only as 93,95,96 with Seles´s stabbing will never count.. :wavey:

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 12:38 AM
Steffi really has one, 88 only as 93,95,96 with Seles´s stabbing will never count.. :wavey:
YOu're an idiot!


How many does Seles have? ZERO!

Oneofakind0490
May 25th, 2005, 12:42 AM
(post-WW2)?
Why post WW2? Is it because Graf would be beat other wise?

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 12:45 AM
YOu're an idiot!


How many does Seles have? ZERO!
:lol:

venus_rulez
May 25th, 2005, 12:47 AM
I wonder if signs of greatness are based on because they are really great achievements or because Steffi Graf is number one in an area....just a thought.

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 12:50 AM
sometimes it's both.....

You know like winning THE GRAND SLAM

How many achiements in tennis are greater than that?

1) Going undefeated for an entire season

2) The Grand Slam

3) ?????????????

4) ????????????????????????????

5) ?????????????????????????????????????

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 12:51 AM
Monica was a great player but I am sure she would agree Wimbledon was the toughest for her, I doubt the stabbing would have made any difference at Wimbledon.
If Conchita could... Monica too..

Shonami Slam
May 25th, 2005, 12:54 AM
Graf was something else all right...
hard to compete with her at any stat basically.

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 01:19 AM
YOu're an idiot!


How many does Seles have? ZERO!
Im obviously being sarcastic and talking a la Calimero, and im sorry that you were the one to get upset over such ridiculous thing.

VS Fan
May 25th, 2005, 01:24 AM
While I agree that the stabbing may helped Steffi win more slams and titles,

she STILL wom RG, Wimby consecitivly 4 times with only ONE other played sidelined.

This is PRETTY GOOD in my book!!

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 01:26 AM
While I agree that the stabbing may helped Steffi win more slams and titles,

she STILL wom RG, Wimby consecitivly 4 times with only ONE other played sidelined.

This is PRETTY GOOD in my book!!
btw Steffi never won Wimbledon 4 consecutive times.
91,92,93 her biggest streak..
Steffi is without a doubt the most versatile player, she could play anywhere and beat anybody on any surface.

But i agree in general.

daffodil
May 25th, 2005, 01:33 AM
Just making the final is nothing....as shown by Serena at Wimbledon 2004 & Elena at RG & USO.

WINNING both is whats significant. What are those stats?

I agree. But the problem with Calimero doing a thread on that is that Steffi wouldn't be winning. :rolleyes:

daffodil
May 25th, 2005, 01:35 AM
While I agree that the stabbing may helped Steffi win more slams and titles,

she STILL wom RG, Wimby consecitivly 4 times with only ONE other played sidelined.

This is PRETTY GOOD in my book!!

From Monica's first Grand Slam (Roland Garros 1990) to her last Grand Slam before her stabbing (Australian Open 1993), Steffi Graf won 2 Grand Slams. Monica won 8 Grand Slams.

-------->To me, that tells me something about Steffi going down as the best ever. :fiery:

VS Fan
May 25th, 2005, 01:35 AM
Spencercarlos:
Well, I meant to convey the FO/Wimby combination, not in consecitive years.

These two slam titles in less than six weeks is considered a great accomplishment because of the close timing AND very different surfaces.

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 01:39 AM
Spencercarlos:
Well, I meant to convey the FO/Wimby combination, not in consecitive years.

These two slam titles in less than six weeks is considered a great accomplishment because of the close timing AND very different surfaces.
ok :great: ;)
But yes and especially how dramatically different the surfaces are. See for example why Sampras considered the best ever or second best, could never manage to do well at both events on the same year, in 96 he reached semis of RG and bumped out in the Qf at Wimbledon.

bandabou
May 25th, 2005, 12:52 PM
How many does the 3rd greatest ever, actually known as Enna, have? Inquiring minds would love to know...

Andy T
May 25th, 2005, 01:00 PM
A clay-court slam and a grass-court slam within 6 weeks - is there a bigger challenge than to have success in both tournaments?

Which players made both finals in the same year how often (post-WW2)?

1) Graf 8 times
2) Evert 6 times
3) Navi 5 times
4) Court 3 times
4) Hart 3 times
6) Goolagong twice
6) Connolly twice
6) ASV twice
9) Hingis, Seles, Serena, Venus etc. once


:worship:

Goolagong only entered both events in three years (71-2-3) so the fact that she made the finals in two of the three is pretty damn impressive, imo). How many times did the others on the list enter both, Cali?
For Nav it was 73-4-5, 81 to 88 and 94 (= 12 times, aged 16-37) For Evert it was 73-4-5, 79-88 (= 13 times, aged 18-33) and for Graf 13 times too (84-5, 87-96, 99, aged 15-30).

rikvanlooy
May 25th, 2005, 01:04 PM
How many does the 3rd greatest ever, actually known as Enna, have? Inquiring minds would love to know...

Hi, bandabou, where are you're rep points gone to ? It seems as if everybody has 5 green dots.

What do you think of the chances of Venus ? I know you're a Williams fan.

I only hope that she doesn't meet Kim. I already know what is going to happen. I am getting sick and tired of it.

bandabou
May 25th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Hi, bandabou, where are you're rep points gone to ? It seems as if everybody has 5 green dots.

What do you think of the chances of Venus ? I know you're a Williams fan.

I only hope that she doesn't meet Kim. I already know what is going to happen. I am getting sick and tired of it.

Hi rik....no,no...I don´t want Venus to meet Kim either..because I too know what´s gonna happen. :sad:

Venus´s chances? what can one say...still has only 2 top 10 wins in two years, sooo....

Chunchun
May 25th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Steffi really has one, 88 only as 93,95,96 with Seles´s stabbing will never count.. :wavey:
:rolleyes: :tape:

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 03:39 PM
:rolleyes: :tape:
Was a joke....

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 03:44 PM
If Conchita could... Monica too..

The difference is...Conchita did! Monica didn't!

gopher
May 25th, 2005, 03:48 PM
so foolish to make these comparisons across times. The level of women's tennis pre-Seles was nowhere.

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 03:49 PM
Was a joke....


Now you know why I don't let "jokes" slide by w/out comment.

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 03:49 PM
Goolagong only entered both events in three years (71-2-3) so the fact that she made the finals in two of the three is pretty damn impressive, imo). How many times did the others on the list enter both, Cali?
For Nav it was 73-4-5, 81 to 88 and 94 (= 12 times, aged 16-37) For Evert it was 73-4-5, 79-88 (= 13 times, aged 18-33) and for Graf 13 times too (84-5, 87-96, 99, aged 15-30).

8 of 13 times is even more amazing stat.

Andy T
May 25th, 2005, 03:52 PM
8 of 13 times is even more amazing stat.

It is indeed impressive but to be expected from one of the all-time greats, no?

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 03:56 PM
It is indeed impressive but to be expected from one of the all-time greats, no?
you'd think....She was definetly the most versatile player I've ever seen. Her record speaks for itself.

Andy T
May 25th, 2005, 04:24 PM
you'd think....She was definetly the most versatile player I've ever seen. Her record speaks for itself.

There has been noone in the era of 4 slams on 4 surfaces whose record comes close to hers, that's for sure.

Helen Lawson
May 25th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I won the '58 Best Actress/Drama Golden Globe, the '58 New York Film Critics Circle Best Actress Prize, and the '58 Best Actress Oscar. That's the triple crown, baby, and I did it!

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:02 PM
Goolagong only entered both events in three years (71-2-3) so the fact that she made the finals in two of the three is pretty damn impressive, imo). How many times did the others on the list enter both, Cali?
For Nav it was 73-4-5, 81 to 88 and 94 (= 12 times, aged 16-37) For Evert it was 73-4-5, 79-88 (= 13 times, aged 18-33) and for Graf 13 times too (84-5, 87-96, 99, aged 15-30).



Hic Rhodos, hic salta.

:p

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:07 PM
From Monica's first Grand Slam (Roland Garros 1990) to her last Grand Slam before her stabbing (Australian Open 1993), Steffi Graf won 2 Grand Slams. Monica won 8 Grand Slams.

-------->To me, that tells me something about Steffi going down as the best ever. :fiery:


From February 1994 until May 1995 ASV won 2 slams and Graf none.
From October 1996 until May 1999 Hingis won 5 slams and Graf none.
From February 1990 until May 1993 Seles won 8 slams (no Wimbledons) and Graf two (two Wimbledons).

Your point being?

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I agree. But the problem with Calimero doing a thread on that is that Steffi wouldn't be winning. :rolleyes:


Graf did the "European slam double" in 88, 93, 95 & 96.
Four times.

Connolly, Navi and King did it twice.
Court, Goolagong, Evert, S. Williams once.
Bueno, Seles, Hingis, V. Williams et al. zero times.



:bigwave:

Andy T
May 25th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Hic Rhodos, hic salta.

:p

exactly - so put up (post up the info) or shut up!

mboyle
May 25th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Lenglen won the double about a thousand times, so...

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 07:21 PM
Lenglen won the double about a thousand times, so...


That's great....how many times did you favorite complete the double?

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:22 PM
Steffi really has one, 88 only as 93,95,96 with Seles´s stabbing will never count.. :wavey:



You think Seles would not have lost to Novotna at FO 96 and to Studenikova at Wim 96 without The Stabbing? :confused:

And Steffi would not have won Wimbledon 93 & 95? :lol: :lol:

FO 93 & 95 is more debatable.
But when we consider that Graf has won 6 FOs and Seles only 3 FOs, that Seles could play FO 98, 00, 01, 02,03 without Graf in the field (but didn't win) and that Graf only lost one in nine clay-court match while Seles lost one in six during their careers it is questionable whether Seles would have even reached FO 93 & 95 finals, not to mention have won them.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:29 PM
so foolish to make these comparisons across times. The level of women's tennis pre-Seles was nowhere.



That's why Navi - in her mid-30ies - beat #1 Seles four times in 1991-93 ....


I don't think you watched women's tennis in the 80ies, sonny!

mboyle
May 25th, 2005, 07:32 PM
That's great....how many times did you favorite complete the double?

Actually Lenglen is one of my favorites of all time. She seemed so graceful, daring, and elegant. Helen Wills and Mo Connolly are also among my favorites. Yes, Maria has yet to win the double, but I am confident she'll win a few...

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Lenglen won the double about a thousand times, so...


Five times, 1920-23 & 25.
But until 1924 only French nationals were allowed to play at the French Championships ....

:p

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 07:37 PM
so give up the goods how many doubles did Lenglen, Wills and Mo Connolly complete?

I think it's possible for Maria do do it a couple of times, but she will def. have to find her clay court game, simply bashing away at every ball isn't gonna get it done.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Actually Lenglen is one of my favorites of all time. She seemed so graceful, daring, and elegant. Helen Wills and Mo Connolly are also among my favorites. Yes, Maria has yet to win the double, but I am confident she'll win a few...



Lenglen's style would be considered ridiculously affected.
Graf on the other hand had natural grace and elegance.

Sharapova never will win the double. She can thank her lucky stars if she wins a slam here and there in the next ten years.

Pengwin
May 25th, 2005, 07:39 PM
LOL This thread turned Cali green :tape:

Andy T
May 25th, 2005, 07:51 PM
Helen Wills did it 4 times (1928-30 and 1932). Had Chrissie shown up in 1976 and 1978, years in which she was unbeaten on clay, she could well have two more RG finals/wins to her credit. It's also possible that Martina could have reached the RG final in 78 and 79 had she played, I guess.

abayen
May 25th, 2005, 07:56 PM
That's such a ridiculous argument once again. How conveniently can you guys ignore the fact that she lost 2 yrs because of stabbing and was nowhere the mentally strong player that she used to be before the stabbing!!! Calimero and Da Forehand, for two people who usually make fairly rational arguments about everything else, you guys sure become rather illogical when it comes to Seles... (A hint of insecurity? Maybe you guys at the back of your mind do realize that if the stabbing hadn't happened, Seles would have been mentioned in a different light?)

And hey, Seles made the Wimbledon final in her 3rd attempt! Better than what Graf did. She lost to Zina Garrison the year before in a very tight 3rd set (a scoreline similar to Graf's loss to Garrison). And when she lost to Graf in 92, dont discount how badly her game was affected by the loss of grunting (or gruntometer). Anyone who has that video can see Seles was not even a shadow of her normal self in that final. The difference between her play in the semis and finals is enormous. Yes Graf would have won irrespective, but how can you say Seles' game wouldn't have improved in the later years ceteris paribus? Her serve had just started improving and Australian 93 was a big sign of that. That surely would have helped her in Wimbledon.

Anyhow, I think it is pointless arguing with the two of you. Graf was great. Navi was great. Seles would have definitely reached that level of greatness ( and I seriously think Hingis and Serena would have been the only real threat to Monica later on.)

IN REPLY TO

You think Seles would not have lost to Novotna at FO 96 and to Studenikova at Wim 96 without The Stabbing?

And Steffi would not have won Wimbledon 93 & 95?

FO 93 & 95 is more debatable.
But when we consider that Graf has won 6 FOs and Seles only 3 FOs, that Seles could play FO 98, 00, 01, 02,03 without Graf in the field (but didn't win) and that Graf only lost one in nine clay-court match while Seles lost one in six during their careers it is questionable whether Seles would have even reached FO 93 & 95 finals, not to mention have won them.
__________________

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 08:12 PM
That's such a ridiculous argument once again. How conveniently can you guys ignore the fact that she lost 2 yrs because of stabbing and was nowhere the mentally strong player that she used to be before the stabbing!!! ...

It is unusual that you quit your job for more than 2 years because of a minor stab wound.
And she was mentally very strong in her 3 first tournaments when she returned (CanO 95, USO 95, AO 96). Only when she started to lose her fans came up with the "nowhere the mentally strong player that she used to be before The Stabbing" argument.

Seles could not lose:
If she had continued to win everybody would have worshipped her even more. And when she continued to lose Selesians attributed all this to a minor stab wound received 3 and more years before.



....
And hey, Seles made the Wimbledon final in her 3rd attempt! Better than what Graf did. She lost to Zina Garrison the year before in a very tight 3rd set (a scoreline similar to Graf's loss to Garrison). And when she lost to Graf in 92, dont discount how badly her game was affected by the loss of grunting (or gruntometer). Anyone who has that video can see Seles was not even a shadow of her normal self in that final. The difference between her play in the semis and finals is enormous. Yes Graf would have won irrespective, but how can you say Seles' game wouldn't have improved in the later years ceteris paribus? Her serve had just started improving and Australian 93 was a big sign of that. That surely would have helped her in Wimbledon.
...


Graf made the Wimbledon final in her 3rd attempt as well (1987).
And she didn't let herself be belted as Seles did in 1992.
This "not grunting" excuse is a joke, no?
There is no sign that Seles improved in 93 compared to 92.
In 1993 - until the fateful Hamburg tournament - she had a 15-1 win/loss record with 6 sets lost.
In 1992 she was at 27-1 wins/losses with only THREE sets lost at the same time.

And we must not forget that Graf narrowed Seles' lead in the WTA rankings from 58 pts. (Dec 1991) to only 21 pts. just before The Stabbing.
The writing was on the wall - Graf was going to overtake her again.
Their post-summer-95 record is the ultimate proof.

abayen
May 25th, 2005, 08:43 PM
It is unusual that you quit your job for more than 2 years because of a minor stab wound.
And she was mentally very strong in her 3 first tournaments when she returned (CanO 95, USO 95, AO 96). Only when she started to lose her fans came up with the "nowhere the mentally strong player that she used to be before The Stabbing" argument.


And 3 tournaments are enough to determine mental strenght. Hey Graf won Wimbledon, Leipzig, Zurich and a score of other tournaments in 1991. It is wrong to say she had other distractions then (an argument that I have often see you make to trash Seles' achievements circa 90-93)


Graf made the Wimbledon final in her 3rd attempt as well (1987).
And she didn't let herself be belted as Seles did in 1992.
This "not grunting" excuse is a joke, no?
.

Oh no, it's not a joke. Go watch the match yourself! Proof is in the pudding.
If you think she was playing her normal self, then go watch the semis against Navi and quarters against Tauziat (2 players who complained and made her conscious in the final) If you still don't think that was a factor, then I honestly dont care about your opinion.


There is no sign that Seles improved in 93 compared to 92.
In 1993 - until the fateful Hamburg tournament - she had a 15-1 win/loss record with 6 sets lost.
In 1992 she was at 27-1 wins/losses with only THREE sets lost at the same time.
.


Sometimes the quality of the opponent matters too! Wasn't Aus 93 played at an absolutely high level by both players? Didn't that match show how much she had improved? Graf practically tried everything but really was no match in that final set.


And we must not forget that Graf narrowed Seles' lead in the WTA rankings from 58 pts. (Dec 1991) to only 21 pts. just before The Stabbing.
The writing was on the wall - Graf was going to overtake her again.
Their post-summer-95 record is the ultimate proof.

And we must also not forget that Seles wasn't well before the stabbing and barely played the hardcourt season before Hamburg? Could that have helped Graf narrow the points?

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 08:50 PM
That's such a ridiculous argument once again. How conveniently can you guys ignore the fact that she lost 2 yrs because of stabbing and was nowhere the mentally strong player that she used to be before the stabbing!!! Calimero and Da Forehand, for two people who usually make fairly rational arguments about everything else, you guys sure become rather illogical when it comes to Seles... (A hint of insecurity? Maybe you guys at the back of your mind do realize that if the stabbing hadn't happened, Seles would have been mentioned in a different light?)

And hey, Seles made the Wimbledon final in her 3rd attempt! Better than what Graf did. She lost to Zina Garrison the year before in a very tight 3rd set (a scoreline similar to Graf's loss to Garrison). And when she lost to Graf in 92, dont discount how badly her game was affected by the loss of grunting (or gruntometer). Anyone who has that video can see Seles was not even a shadow of her normal self in that final. The difference between her play in the semis and finals is enormous. Yes Graf would have won irrespective, but how can you say Seles' game wouldn't have improved in the later years ceteris paribus? Her serve had just started improving and Australian 93 was a big sign of that. That surely would have helped her in Wimbledon.

Anyhow, I think it is pointless arguing with the two of you. Graf was great. Navi was great. Seles would have definitely reached that level of greatness ( and I seriously think Hingis and Serena would have been the only real threat to Monica later on.)

IN REPLY TO

You think Seles would not have lost to Novotna at FO 96 and to Studenikova at Wim 96 without The Stabbing?

And Steffi would not have won Wimbledon 93 & 95?

FO 93 & 95 is more debatable.
But when we consider that Graf has won 6 FOs and Seles only 3 FOs, that Seles could play FO 98, 00, 01, 02,03 without Graf in the field (but didn't win) and that Graf only lost one in nine clay-court match while Seles lost one in six during their careers it is questionable whether Seles would have even reached FO 93 & 95 finals, not to mention have won them.
__________________


I don't use excuses for Steffi's losses, nor do I accept excuses for any other players losses, Monica included, but over the years I have heard more out of this world excuses from Selestials, ranging from flies/moths (A.O loss to Hingis), fitness issues, etc.... If you show up on the other side of the net you are in effect saying I'm here and I'm ready to compete.

I've said it before. Steffi Graf, was great before Monica hit her first ball as a professional player. If they'd both walked away from the game April 93, The Grand Slam secured her future as an all-time great.


Steffi's record speaks for itself, but at the same time I'm not going to sit by and let revisionist distort her record.

It all comes down to choices and consequences. Steffi worked her ass off to comeback after injuries and personal setbacks in 97, to end her career on her terms ranked #3.

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 08:57 PM
Oh no, it's not a joke. Go watch the match yourself! Proof is in the pudding.
If you think she was playing her normal self, then go watch the semis against Navi and quarters against Tauziat (2 players who complained and made her conscious in the final) If you still don't think that was a factor, then I honestly dont care about your opinion.


choices and consequences , why can't you and other Selestials face the fact that on Grass Graf was far and away the superior player. :p



Sometimes the quality of the opponent matters too! Wasn't Aus 93 played at an absolutely high level by both players? Didn't that match show how much she had improved? Graf practically tried everything but really was no match in that final set.

why didn't Seles try everything to win the 92 Wimbledon ? :confused: :wavey:

And we must also not forget that Seles wasn't well before the stabbing and barely played the hardcourt season before Hamburg? Could that have helped Graf narrow the points?


You mean she wasn't invincible prior to the stabbing? Didn't she go three years w/out losing a match? :rolleyes:

gmak
May 25th, 2005, 09:01 PM
:)

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 09:27 PM
Now you know why I don't let "jokes" slide by w/out comment.
I don´t really care Daforehand, really if you would have 5 fingers in front of you, you would have understood that i was doing a Cali personification, and that the one i was trying to get was him not you, by dismissing Graf´s numbers.
There is no way not to recognize Graf´s greatness and numbers, because they were achieved and they are there, despite the stabbing or not...
Graf was overall the better player, but without any doubt during 1990-1993, it was Monica being the better one, off the tour, and off head to head matches vs Graf, especially on the biggest tournaments, 3-1 lead in GS finals enough said. This despite all of the excuses and illnesses of Graf´s Daddy, that Calimero will reply off this post.

PD. Cali by stating that Monica could not win Roland Garros even after Graf´s retirement, only shows you that really it was not "GRAF" the one responsable of her winless run at slams after stabbing. It was the whole tragedy she suffered and the mental consequences of them the ones that never really allowed her to peak (mentally) once again.

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 09:33 PM
You think Seles would not have lost to Novotna at FO 96 and to Studenikova at Wim 96 without The Stabbing? :confused:

And Steffi would not have won Wimbledon 93 & 95? :lol: :lol:

FO 93 & 95 is more debatable.
But when we consider that Graf has won 6 FOs and Seles only 3 FOs, that Seles could play FO 98, 00, 01, 02,03 without Graf in the field (but didn't win) and that Graf only lost one in nine clay-court match while Seles lost one in six during their careers it is questionable whether Seles would have even reached FO 93 & 95 finals, not to mention have won them.
FO 93 Debatible?
Do you think Steffi´s just winning 6-4 in the third set vs the all time great clay courter like Mary Joe Fernandez in the final can be enough to say that Monica wouldn´t have repeated as Champion in 93?
Do you think Monica would have performed worse. :lol: you are laughable..
Watch 93 Aopen Final, suffer the last 8 minutes and realize why Monica was better then.

Geisha
May 25th, 2005, 09:36 PM
A clay-court slam and a grass-court slam within 6 weeks - is there a bigger challenge than to have success in both tournaments?

Then Serena's 'Serena Slam' is much more impressive than Graf's Grand Slam, right?

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 09:40 PM
...
Sometimes the quality of the opponent matters too! Wasn't Aus 93 played at an absolutely high level by both players? Didn't that match show how much she had improved? Graf practically tried everything but really was no match in that final set.

And we must also not forget that Seles wasn't well before the stabbing and barely played the hardcourt season before Hamburg? Could that have helped Graf narrow the points?


No, because they had an ranking system based on point average. Seles' pts. even increased in the weeks she didn't play in March/April1993.

Graf - who had a pulled groin muscle - was a match during the whole AO93 final. She had break point at 2-4 in the 3rd set but Seles aced her, won the next 6 points as well. In the end Seles had 86 pts. and Graf 78. On Seles' best and Graf's worst surface.

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 09:48 PM
No, because they had an ranking system based on point average. Seles' pts. even increased in the weeks she didn't play in March/April1993.

Graf - who had a pulled groin muscle - was a match during the whole AO93 final. She had break point at 2-4 in the 3rd set but Seles aced her, won the next 6 points as well. In the end Seles had 86 pts. and Graf 78. On Seles' best and Graf's worst surface.
Not really, Graf´s worst surface is Grass, you already taught us that on this post

http://www.wtaworld.com/showthread.php?p=5458859#post5458859

Oh wait double standard Cal? :fiery: Not again please :sad:

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 09:52 PM
....
It all comes down to choices and consequences. Steffi worked her ass off to comeback after injuries and personal setbacks in 97, to end her career on her terms ranked #3.

How true!

Especially Graf - with all her talent - could be bitter because of her fragile body and her wayward dad. Just imagine her with an almost injury-free career and a dad like Chris Evert ....

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 09:56 PM
I don´t really care Daforehand, really if you would have 5 fingers in front of you, you would have understood that i was doing a Cali personification, and that the one i was trying to get was him not you, by dismissing Graf´s numbers.
There is no way not to recognize Graf´s greatness and numbers, because they were achieved and they are there, despite the stabbing or not...
Graf was overall the better player, but without any doubt during 1990-1993, it was Monica being the better one, off the tour, and off head to head matches vs Graf, especially on the biggest tournaments, 3-1 lead in GS finals enough said. This despite all of the excuses and illnesses of Graf´s Daddy, that Calimero will reply off this post.

PD. Cali by stating that Monica could not win Roland Garros even after Graf´s retirement, only shows you that really it was not "GRAF" the one responsable of her winless run at slams after stabbing. It was the whole tragedy she suffered and the mental consequences of them the ones that never really allowed her to peak (mentally) once again.


Post-90 Graf never was the same again mentally as in the 80ies.


Hingis, Sabby, Venus, Capriati, Majoli - there are a lot of teen phenoms who struggled mentally when they became older(20, 21, 22 ...). That's the way it is.
It doesn't need a stabbing.

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 10:03 PM
How true!

Especially Graf - with all her talent - could be bitter because of her fragile body and her wayward dad. Just imagine her with an almost injury-free career and a dad like Chris Evert ....
Steffi´s fragile Body?
Sure she was overtrained but that was her choice, even Steffi´s body was selected as the perfect body for a woman athlete. I doubt it was fraggile, it just became sore with Steffi´s workout. She was 1000% dedicated to trainning.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 10:09 PM
FO 93 Debatible?
Do you think Steffi´s just winning 6-4 in the third set vs the all time great clay courter like Mary Joe Fernandez in the final can be enough to say that Monica wouldn´t have repeated as Champion in 93?
Do you think Monica would have performed worse. :lol: you are laughable..
Watch 93 Aopen Final, suffer the last 8 minutes and realize why Monica was better then.


Fernandez beat Sabatini and destroyed Sanchez (6-2, 6-2!) on her way to the final. She played the best slam of her whole career.

Seles had struggled bigtime against Sabby at FO 92 (6-4 in 3rd set after trailing 2-4), had squeaked past Kijimuta with 6-4 in 3rd set in 4th round, had a lot of luck against Graf in the final (10-8 in 3rd set).
Good teenager's nerves and a little bit luck helped her.

Graf lost against Seles at AO - in the last 8 minutes.
One of two losses against #1 Seles (the other one being FO 92).
Graf's three wins ALL were more convincing and clear-cut (San Antonio 91, Hamburg 91, Wimbledon 92).

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 10:12 PM
Then Serena's 'Serena Slam' is much more impressive than Graf's Grand Slam, right?


No.
Both include the FO/Wim combo.
But the real Grand Slam starts only once a year - the Golden Grand Slam only every 4 years.

DA FOREHAND
May 25th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Steffi´s fragile Body?
Sure she was overtrained but that was her choice, even Steffi´s body was selected as the perfect body for a woman athlete. I doubt it was fraggile, it just became sore with Steffi´s workout. She was 1000% dedicated to trainning.
Imagine the things Monica could have achieved had she dedicated herself to fitness.

Choices and consequences.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 10:16 PM
Steffi´s fragile Body?
Sure she was overtrained but that was her choice, even Steffi´s body was selected as the perfect body for a woman athlete. I doubt it was fraggile, it just became sore with Steffi´s workout. She was 1000% dedicated to trainning.


Her bum back was inherited (mom had the same problems).
And her perennial knee problems came from a unusual location of a string in her left knee.

bandabou
May 25th, 2005, 10:20 PM
Going by Cali´s greats list:
1. Steffi did it
2. Nav did it
3. Enna.....oops
4. Serena did it
5. Monica did it...


seems like Enna is the odd one out on the list, yet she´s considered an all-timer by Cali...

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Fernandez beat Sabatini and destroyed Sanchez (6-2, 6-2!) on her way to the final. She played the best slam of her whole career.

Seles had struggled bigtime against Sabby at FO 92 (6-4 in 3rd set after trailing 2-4), had squeaked past Kijimuta with 6-4 in 3rd set in 4th round, had a lot of luck against Graf in the final (10-8 in 3rd set).
Good teenager's nerves and a little bit luck helped her.

Graf lost against Seles at AO - in the last 8 minutes.
One of two losses against #1 Seles (the other one being FO 92).
Graf's three wins ALL were more convincing and clear-cut (San Antonio 91, Hamburg 91, Wimbledon 92).
ASV lost 6-2 6-2 just because she was playing poorly, of course if you watched the match you would know it, even Gaby managed to beat Arantxa 6-1 6-3 at Rome weeks earlier. Gaby lost there to Mary Joe because she was already a head case by 93.

BTW Going by results really Mary Joe best slam was 92 Australian Open, as she trashed a confident Gaby 6-1 6-4 in the semis, with Gaby playing some of her best tennis after beating Jennifer in the round before and having won Sydney the week prior to the Australian. Monica just simply out played Mary Joe in that final, from all corners.

Anyway going back to it, its really sad from you to consider Mary Joe performing better than Seles at Roland Garros 93 if Monica had played :tape: what a delusional :lol:

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 10:36 PM
Going by Cali´s greats list:
1. Steffi did it
2. Nav did it
3. Enna.....oops
4. Serena did it
5. Monica did it...


seems like Enna is the odd one out on the list, yet she´s considered an all-timer by Cali...
Cali does not really has arguments to substaing that Enna is an all time greater player than Serena.
Yet he dismisses Serena´s slam wins over her sister, but considers beating Clijsters (not yet a slam winner) more worthy :tape:.
Even Venus´s dominating period was longer than Henin´s and won more GS too.
Yet he insists Henin>Serena.
But blames Seles>Graf.
When its exactly the same comparrisson but on Graf-Seles´s case is worse because Monica "had" to be stabbed so Steffi started to win more slams again :tape:

If Henin>Serena
Then its pretty safe to say Seles>Graf. this of course according to Calimero´s reasoning :lol: So adequate.. :tape:

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 10:41 PM
Cali does not really has arguments to substaing that Enna is an all time greater player than Serena.
...


Your problem is Cali never ever suggested that ...

spencercarlos
May 25th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Your problem is Cali never ever suggested that ...
Oh yeah sorry change all time greater with "better peak" stuff you like to talk about

darrinbaker00
May 25th, 2005, 11:00 PM
It is unusual that you quit your job for more than 2 years because of a minor stab wound.
See, Cali, there's one place where you lose all credibility. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "MINOR" STAB WOUND. How would you feel if someone came within inches of ending your life?

Another place where you lose credibility is with these ridiculous "sign of greatness" threads, because there is no quantitative way to prove who was/is the best. Martina Navratilova can say she's the greatest ever because she's won more matches and titles than anyone. Margaret Court san say she's the greatest because she's won the most majors. Chris Evert can say she's the greatest because she has the highest winning percentage. If Helen Wills Moody were still alive, she could say she's the greatest because she once won 142 matches in a row (all in straight sets, no less). All Steffi Graf has going for her, other than THE OPINION OF OTHERS, is career prize money, which, thanks to inflation, is subjective. In the name of Althea Gibson, PLEASE stop this nonsense.

miffedmax
May 25th, 2005, 11:00 PM
The real test of greatness is making the FO and US Open Finals in the same year. And being really, really, really, really cute.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 11:15 PM
See, Cali, there's one place where you lose all credibility. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "MINOR" STAB WOUND. How would you feel if someone came within inches of ending your life?

Another place where you lose credibility is with these ridiculous "sign of greatness" threads, because there is no quantitative way to prove who was/is the best. Martina Navratilova can say she's the greatest ever because she's won more matches and titles than anyone. Margaret Court san say she's the greatest because she's won the most majors. Chris Evert can say she's the greatest because she has the highest winning percentage. If Helen Wills Moody were still alive, she could say she's the greatest because she once won 142 matches in a row (all in straight sets, no less). All Steffi Graf has going for her, other than THE OPINION OF OTHERS, is career prize money, which, thanks to inflation, is subjective. In the name of Althea Gibson, PLEASE stop this nonsense.


I almost lost my life in a terrible car crash.
But I was on the autobahn again within weeks.

Those "sign of greatness" threads definitely have more substance than the zillion threads about "RG fashion" or "Wow! Petrova beats Cervanova!".

Graf has the most slam wins in the greatest era of women's tennis, the open era.
She has won each slam at least 4 times.
She is considered the most graceful mover ever - by far.
And the most popular player of all time.

Calimero377
May 25th, 2005, 11:18 PM
The real test of greatness is making the FO and US Open Finals in the same year. And being really, really, really, really cute.


Graf!
She did it in 87, 88, 89, 90, 93, 95 & 96 - seven times.
And she is really, really, really cute.

Who could beat that?

darrinbaker00
May 25th, 2005, 11:27 PM
I almost lost my life in a terrible car crash.
But I was on the autobahn again within weeks.
I'm sorry to hear that (yes, I mean the accident).

Those "sign of greatness" threads definitely have more substance than the zillion threads about "RG fashion" or "Wow! Petrova beats Cervanova!".

Graf has the most slam wins in the greatest era of women's tennis, the open era.
She has won each slam at least 4 times.
She is considered the most graceful mover ever - by far.
And the most popular player of all time.
What I bolded are the only parts that cannot be disputed; everything else is your opinion.

spencercarlos
May 26th, 2005, 01:47 AM
I almost lost my life in a terrible car crash.
But I was on the autobahn again within weeks.

Those "sign of greatness" threads definitely have more substance than the zillion threads about "RG fashion" or "Wow! Petrova beats Cervanova!".

Graf has the most slam wins in the greatest era of women's tennis, the open era.
She has won each slam at least 4 times.
She is considered the most graceful mover ever - by far.
And the most popular player of all time.
Then you did not realize/appreciate/ how valuable is live.
Someone who refers to "stab wound", and talks about it as a minimal thing, to a tragedy that changed dramatically the life of a person definetly has no sense at all.

Again Cali you are sad anyways :sad:

Calimero377
May 27th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Then you did not realize/appreciate/ how valuable is live.
Someone who refers to "stab wound", and talks about it as a minimal thing, to a tragedy that changed dramatically the life of a person definetly has no sense at all.

Again Cali you are sad anyways :sad:



A friend of mine received a major stab wound in a night club brawl. He had to be re-animated, was almost dead already.
4 weeks later he was back at work. And of course he was seen in night clubs again shortly after this ...

OK, everybody reacts differently.
But we should not overblow the Seles Stabbing. Especially we should not use this "never-the-same-player-after-The-Stabbing" argument. Seles returned at the tender age of 21. Now she is 31. Ten long years of excuses by her fans. Pathetic.

Julia1968
May 27th, 2005, 10:17 PM
I won the '58 Best Actress/Drama Golden Globe, the '58 New York Film Critics Circle Best Actress Prize, and the '58 Best Actress Oscar. That's the triple crown, baby, and I did it!

:worship: :worship: :worship:

spencercarlos
May 27th, 2005, 10:52 PM
A friend of mine received a major stab wound in a night club brawl. He had to be re-animated, was almost dead already.
4 weeks later he was back at work. And of course he was seen in night clubs again shortly after this ...

OK, everybody reacts differently.
But we should not overblow the Seles Stabbing. Especially we should not use this "never-the-same-player-after-The-Stabbing" argument. Seles returned at the tender age of 21. Now she is 31. Ten long years of excuses by her fans. Pathetic.
As you said everybody reacts differently.
When you refer to it, you do it with the subjective information that your brain and your love for Steffi Graf´s allows you to process, that it was a 1,5 cm stab wound and that she could have returned inmediatelly as possible to competition, but if Graf could be affected for 2 years BECAUSE of Daddy´s scandal, something not related directly to her because that happened to Mr Peter Graf, hell Monica´s stabbing could definetly have been affected for much longer time because that event happened to Monica Seles herself not to her dad or to a relative... But then this is too much information that your brain can´t process..
End of the story

Calimero377
May 27th, 2005, 11:12 PM
As you said everybody reacts differently.
When you refer to it, you do it with the subjective information that your brain and your love for Steffi Graf´s allows you to process, that it was a 1,5 cm stab wound and that she could have returned inmediatelly as possible to competition, but if Graf could be affected for 2 years BECAUSE of Daddy´s scandal, something not related directly to her because that happened to Mr Peter Graf, hell Monica´s stabbing could definetly have been affected for much longer time because that event happened to Monica Seles herself not to her dad or to a relative... But then this is too much information that your brain can´t process..
End of the story


No, not end of story.
The Stabbing - as terrible as it was - was over on May 1st, 1993. Nevertheless Seles didn't play for 2.25 years. And her fans even use that attack as an excuse for her not winning very much in the next 10 years.

The Graf blackmail scandal started in May 1990 and ended in February 1992, producing embarrassing headlines for almost two years. Graf played through this time and - although clearly slumping - won Wimbledon and a lot of Tier I tournaments, beating Seles twice in 1991.

I've said that time and again: If we allow Seles to be out of the game for more than 2 years and their fans to come up with excuses for 10 years we most allow Graf to play sub-par for two years. But many Graf haters just won't do that. Because they fear that it would somehow diminish Seles' accomplishments in 90/92.

¤CharlDa¤
May 27th, 2005, 11:58 PM
If i understand well.....

1) If reaching the FO and Wimby finals the same year is a sign of greatness
2) Venus reached the fainls of both in 2002

Then Venus IS actually a great player! So she was right saying it :worship: :D ;) Simple maths!