PDA

View Full Version : Museum of Creation


gentenaire
May 6th, 2005, 11:16 AM
In the beginning . . . Adam walked with dinosaurs
By James Langton in New York

With its towering dinosaurs and a model of the Grand Canyon, America's newest tourist attraction might look like the ideal destination for fans of the film Jurassic Park.

The new multi-million-dollar Museum of Creation, which will open this spring in Kentucky, will, however, be aimed not at film buffs, but at the growing ranks of fundamentalist Christians in the United States.


It aims to promote the view that man was created in his present shape by God, as the Bible states, rather than by a Darwinian process of evolution, as scientists insist.


The centrepiece of the museum is a series of huge model dinosaurs, built by the former head of design at Universal Studios, which are portrayed as existing alongside man, contrary to received scientific opinion that they lived millions of years apart.


Other exhibits include images of Adam and Eve, a model of Noah's Ark and a planetarium demonstrating how God made the Earth in six days.


The museum, which has cost a mighty $25 million (£13 million) will be the world's first significant natural history collection devoted to creationist theory. It has been set up by Ken Ham, an Australian evangelist, who runs Answers in Genesis, one of America's most prominent creationist organisations. He said that his aim was to use tourism, and the theme park's striking exhibits, to convert more people to the view that the world and its creatures, including dinosaurs, were created by God 6,000 years ago.


"We want people to be confronted by the dinosaurs," said Mr Ham. "It's going to be a first class experience. Visitors are going to be hit by the professionalism of this place. It is not going to be done in an amateurish way. We are making a statement."


The museum's main building was completed recently, and work on the entrance exhibit starts this week. The first phase of the museum, which lies on a 47-acre site 10 miles from Cincinatti on the border of Kentucky and Ohio, will open in the spring.


Market research companies hired by the museum are predicting at least 300,000 visitors in the first year, who will pay $10 (£5.80) each.


Among the projects still to be finished is a reconstruction of the Grand Canyon, purportedly formed by the swirling waters of the Great Flood – where visitors will "gape" at the bones of dinosaurs that "hint of a terrible catastrophe", according to the museum's publicity.


Mr Ham is particularly proud of a planned reconstruction of the interior of Noah's Ark. "You will hear the water lapping, feel the Ark rocking and perhaps even hear people outside screaming," he said.


More controversial exhibits deal with diseases and famine, which are portrayed not as random disasters, but as the result of mankind's sin. Mr Ham's Answers in Genesis movement blames the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado, in which two teenagers killed 12 classmates and a teacher before killing themselves, on evolutionist teaching, claiming that the perpetrators believed in Darwin's survival of the fittest.


Other exhibits in the museum will blame homosexuals for Aids. In a "Bible Authority Room" visitors are warned: "Everyone who rejects his history – including six-day creation and Noah's flood – is `wilfully' ignorant.''


Elsewhere, animated figures will be used to recreate the Garden of Eden, while in another room, visitors will see a tyrannosaurus rex pursuing Adam and Eve after their fall from grace. "That's the real terror that Adam's sin unleashed," visitors will be warned.


A display showing ancient Babylon will deal with the Tower of Babel and "unravel the origin of so-called races'', while the final section will show the life of Christ, as an animated angel proclaims the coming of the Saviour and a 3D depiction of the crucifixion.


In keeping with modern museum trends, there will also be a cafe with a terrace to "breathe in the fresh air of God's creation'', and a shop "crammed'' with creationist souvenirs, including T-shirts and books such as A is for Adam and Dinky Dinosaur: Creation Days.


The museum's opening will reinforce the burgeoning creationist movement and evangelical Christianity in the US, which gained further strength with the re-election of President Bush in November.


Followers of creationism have been pushing for their theories to be reintegrated into American schoolroom teaching ever since the celebrated 1925 "Scopes Monkey Trial", when US courts upheld the right of a teacher to use textbooks that included evolutionary theory.

In 1987, the US Supreme Court reinforced that position by banning the teaching of creationism in public schools on the grounds of laws that separate state and Church.


Since then, however, many schools – particularly in America's religious Deep South – have got around the ban by teaching the theory of "intelligent design", which claims that evolutionary ideas alone still leave large gaps in understanding.


"Since President Bush's re-election we have been getting more membership applications than we can handle,'' said Mr Ham, who expects not just the devout, but also the curious, to flock through the turnstiles. "The evolutionary elite will be getting a wake-up call."

alexusjonesfan
May 6th, 2005, 02:56 PM
The South really ought to secede and become Jesusland or whatever. They're just on a different planet. Next they'll have people condemned as heretics for saying the earth travels around the sun.

nash
May 6th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Yes, I've heard of this! Can't wait to visit!

alexusjonesfan
May 6th, 2005, 03:17 PM
:haha: :haha: :haha:

It's a joke... Right?

no, it's been open for a while. They should just call it museum of mythology

SelesFan70
May 6th, 2005, 03:33 PM
It's no more less-provable than evolution, so if people want to believe in "god" doing things who are we to say they're dumb/uninformed/mentally insane? :shrug: I personally find the whole idea of "god" rather ridiculous, but I never insinuate I'm smarter or better than someone who does believe.

nash
May 6th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Did you read the article? It's not really just the museum of creation, but more about blaming homosexuals for Aids and blaming evolutionist teaching for the Columbine tragedy. That's really reaching a new high of stupidity.

Did YOU read the article? That's not at all what this museum is about. See for yourself at:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

alexusjonesfan
May 6th, 2005, 04:01 PM
It's no more less-provable than evolution, so if people want to believe in "god" doing things who are we to say they're dumb/uninformed/mentally insane? :shrug: I personally find the whole idea of "god" rather ridiculous, but I never insinuate I'm smarter or better than someone who does believe.

uhh yes it is...hence the whole dealy about science being falsifiable. Anyhoo, I'll take it as a theme park.

nash
May 6th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Yes, I did.

More controversial exhibits deal with diseases and famine, which are portrayed not as random disasters, but as the result of mankind's sin.

Other exhibits in the museum will blame homosexuals for Aids.

Are you blind?

Anyway I don't have any interest to click on that link, or to visit that museum, because I'm way too intelligent for that garbage.

Don't base your opinion on this article, dude.

Your statement was:
"It's not really just the museum of creation, but more about blaming homosexuals for Aids".

I am not blind. That is NOT what this museum is about. And, that wasn't even the FOCUS of the article. Only one sentence. How do you, from that, determine that it's MORE ABOUT BLAMING HOMOSEXUALS, hmmmm?

Seems to me that you picked up on one misleading statement and made your own assumptions. If you'll click the link, you'll see for yourself...

Martian Willow
May 6th, 2005, 04:28 PM
Ok. :o I guess if some mentally insane people want to create a museum of retardness, it's in their right, let's just hope people will boycott. ;)

That's a great idea! :D I'm going to register the domain.

kabuki
May 6th, 2005, 05:24 PM
The first phase of the museum, which lies on a 47-acre site 10 miles from Cincinatti on the border of Kentucky and Ohio, will open in the spring.




Cincinatti? :haha: Let's try Cincinnati

It HAS to be a hoax. :unsure:

kabuki
May 6th, 2005, 05:25 PM
The South really ought to secede and become Jesusland or whatever. They're just on a different planet. Next they'll have people condemned as heretics for saying the earth travels around the sun.

:haha:

kiwifan
May 6th, 2005, 10:49 PM
:haha:

alexusjonesfan
May 6th, 2005, 10:51 PM
i see nothing wrong with this. that it originated in america is also fitting, due to the fact that the states do seem to have your greater number of creationists in the world. this provides a balance. you have those who believe in evolution, and so they have their viewpoint already more than aptly covered. and now you have this. it's good. provides a balance. and balance is fair.

you came out of hibernation to tell us to play nice :angel:

kiwifan
May 6th, 2005, 10:53 PM
cut it out, counselor. museums are a most solemnly profound subject.

:o Sorry :bolt:

RVD
May 7th, 2005, 04:59 AM
:haha: :eek: :haha: :eek: :haha: :eek: :haha:
COME ON!
This is just so beyond ludicrous! All I want to know is, who fronted the money for this? :lol:

gentenaire
May 7th, 2005, 06:41 AM
It's no more less-provable than evolution, so if people want to believe in "god" doing things who are we to say they're dumb/uninformed/mentally insane? :shrug: I personally find the whole idea of "god" rather ridiculous, but I never insinuate I'm smarter or better than someone who does believe.

I think it has been proven that the earth is much older than 6000 years, without any doubt!


Like a friend of mine said, they're going about it the wrong way. They should have charged goats instead of 10$, split the people up in sinners and non-sinners and let the sinners head for the plague room where at random a person is struck by lightening, or there's a flood. That'll teach the sinners!


Another friend felt sorry they no longer use her favourite explanation for dinosaurs: god planted the bones to test their faith.

Halardfan
May 7th, 2005, 07:10 AM
Most Americans are friendly, positive, smart, enitrely cool.

However, there is this chunk of people who are a bunch of nutcases.

They are also GW Bush's natural base.

The two facts are connected. ;)

Such people just need a slap. :)

Wigglytuff
May 7th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Sure there's nothing wrong with it. I can create a museum stating that 2 + 2 = 5, that right angles are 80deg, and that Nicole Pratt won the Australian Open last year for comedic value and charge 10 bucks for entries.

still this would make a lot more sense than this creationist bs :tape:
at least in 2 + 2 = 5, five is a number. this is more like 2 + 2 = frogs created t-rex to kill man.
-

seriously, what i don't understand is why they don't teach the world is flat. every good Christian knows that the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and there are no other planets.

if God created other planets he would have said so in the bible. and by falling to do that clearly proves there are no other planets!

the people who created this museum are clearly heretics and hate God and babies because they don't talk about how the world is flat and there are no other planets.

:haha: :haha:

Wigglytuff
May 7th, 2005, 01:18 PM
I think it has been proven that the earth is much older than 6000 years, without any doubt!


Like a friend of mine said, they're going about it the wrong way. They should have charged goats instead of 10$, split the people up in sinners and non-sinners and let the sinners head for the plague room where at random a person is struck by lightening, or there's a flood. That'll teach the sinners!


Another friend felt sorry they no longer use her favourite explanation for dinosaurs: god planted the bones to test their faith.
:eek: :eek: :lol: :lol: :tape: :tape:

bionic71
May 7th, 2005, 02:16 PM
....sounds like a hoot!
The arc exhibit sounds especially enticing...lots of fun family photo opportunties there.

flyingmachine
May 7th, 2005, 10:43 PM
:haha: I wonder what's next? The cow created the moon and who jumps over it. :lol:

Hulet
May 7th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Did YOU read the article? That's not at all what this museum is about. See for yourself at:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/
Looking at the walkthrough diagram, I think it could be fun. Reliving all those biblical stories I heard about when I was a kid could be enjoyable. Yes, I admit it, all those stories were fascinating to me before I start wondering about all the inconsistencies.

~ The Leopard ~
May 8th, 2005, 02:01 AM
Dinosaurs! :hearts:

~ The Leopard ~
May 8th, 2005, 02:03 AM
:lol:

(If I took this too seriously I'd probably slash my wrists.)

BigB08822
May 8th, 2005, 03:11 AM
I hate living in the south. Someone want to adopt me up north?

*JR*
May 20th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Did YOU read the article? That's not at all what this museum is about. See for yourself at:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

Hello nash, I've missed our little theological chats. Anyhow, I did check your link (and the one within it) regarding whether you creationists can explain why the Bible doesn't talk about the dinosaurs, when they'd have been pretty hard for our forebears not to notice. I couldn't find any mention of that, so perhaps you can explain it to me. :)

CondiLicious
May 20th, 2005, 09:57 PM
If the dinosaurs and Adam and Eve were created in the same week then... How are we here? Surely they'd have been swallowed whole by a T-Rex!


:lol:

Rtael
May 20th, 2005, 11:16 PM
i see nothing wrong with this. that it originated in america is also fitting, due to the fact that the states do seem to have your greater number of creationists in the world. this provides a balance. you have those who believe in evolution, and so they have their viewpoint already more than aptly covered. and now you have this. it's good. provides a balance. and balance is fair.

I never liked you before, and this certainly isn't bringing me any closer to it. Sure, fairness and balance are important ideals, but if you see anything of value in this piece of trash, I have to say your vision is certainly skewed. Freedom of speech is a right and should be protected, but I don't understand why anyone would want to teach such ignorant, uneducated lies.

Kart
May 20th, 2005, 11:24 PM
Mr Ham is particularly proud of a planned reconstruction of the interior of Noah's Ark. "You will hear the water lapping, feel the Ark rocking and perhaps even hear people outside screaming," he said.



:rolls:

Sounds like a fun day out for the kids - if I had any that is.

Rocketta
May 21st, 2005, 03:16 AM
geez, if you don't agree don't pay money to go to it....I'm far from conservative but sometimes my fellow liberals get on my nerves too with the condescension....look no one has a handle on the truth....it only becomes a problem when you think you do and that goes for both sides.

get back to me when they are forcing people to go there and then I guess I'll actually care.

Oh and the south should secede bit is really lame and certainly not an example of high brow conversation either. :yawn:

canadian_bass_2
May 21st, 2005, 07:04 AM
An entire museum devoted to Creation? I think it's the first of its kind for a reason...

Okay, one big thing that I don't understand is that God never came down to earth and wrote the bible for us. So far as I can remember, the bible was created by some dudes who sat around with some manuscripts and were like "I like this bit, scrap that bit..." If some guy came up to you, and told you that an angel was whispering in his ear, and that he was writing out manuscripts in Godspeak, would you listen to them and follow their notes as being the one and only truth? This is the bit that I don't get about the bible. God didn't write it. Men wrote it. Why, therefore, must it be true? If they figure that everything happened in six thousand years, they're a little off. I've heard of ideas that the bible just wrote down that he created the world in 7 days or whatever, but that that didn't actually mean he did it in 7 days. That it was like 7 God Days or something like that. That's more feasible.

Men and Dinosaurs clearly did not exist at the same time. Maybe God created the dinosaurs and just didn't feel like it was worth writing about. It's not like they did anything that wonderful, they just roamed. And the T-Rex eating Adam and Eve, I'm pretty sure that's NOT the hell that Adam and Eve must've felt, or else where in the hell did Cain and Abel come from?

Whatever...this is so much bull...I'm trying to see it from their point of view, but it just doesn't make enough sense to me. Believe whatever you want...

PS all: Sorry for the rant...

Crazy Canuck
May 21st, 2005, 07:15 AM
Um, in general I give this a big "whatever". I think creationism is largly rubbish and have no interest in it, but clearly some people do. I hope they're throroughly entertained and thrilled by this. Sincerely.

I can't however, get past these two passages:

More controversial exhibits deal with diseases and famine, which are portrayed not as random disasters, but as the result of mankind's sin. Mr Ham's Answers in Genesis movement blames the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado, in which two teenagers killed 12 classmates and a teacher before killing themselves, on evolutionist teaching, claiming that the perpetrators believed in Darwin's survival of the fittest.


Other exhibits in the museum will blame homosexuals for Aids. In a "Bible Authority Room" visitors are warned: "Everyone who rejects his history – including six-day creation and Noah's flood – is `wilfully' ignorant.''

Without breaking out into some serious :retard: :retard: :retard:

It will never make any sense to me at all why some religious zealots feel the need to reject science. This is the same attitude that imprisoned Gallileo for his support of Copernican theories. It's nice to know that 400 years later we're still a bunch of morons.

canadian_bass_2
May 21st, 2005, 07:20 AM
My favorite part about the article was how you could hear the people screaming outside when you were inside the rocking Ark. That's true class. :D

gentenaire
May 21st, 2005, 10:37 AM
i see nothing wrong with this. that it originated in america is also fitting, due to the fact that the states do seem to have your greater number of creationists in the world. this provides a balance. you have those who believe in evolution, and so they have their viewpoint already more than aptly covered. and now you have this. it's good. provides a balance. and balance is fair.

I find it alarming that scientific facts are being disregarded as opinions, just like some call certain historical facts opinions as well!

How would you feel should some schools start giving different history lessons, saying the holocaust didn't happen, that people saying it did simply have a different opinion on the matter?

nash
May 24th, 2005, 01:56 PM
How would you feel should some schools start giving different history lessons, saying the holocaust didn't happen, that people saying it did simply have a different opinion on the matter?


Probably about the same way I feel when you say God doesn't exist and the Bible is not true.

Tine - it goes both ways, and I sincerely hope you can see that.

Just as surely as you know that the Holocaust did happen, I am equally sure that God does exist. I know this because I have personally felt His presence in my life.

-Nash-

nash
May 24th, 2005, 02:01 PM
Hello nash, I've missed our little theological chats. Anyhow, I did check your link (and the one within it) regarding whether you creationists can explain why the Bible doesn't talk about the dinosaurs, when they'd have been pretty hard for our forebears not to notice. I couldn't find any mention of that, so perhaps you can explain it to me. :)

Oh my - the dead has risen (and it's not even Easter! ;) )

Seriously though - JR, I have missed you as well. How are you doing? It is good to have you back.

As to your question, the Bible doesn't mention the names of lots of animals - why does it both you that dinosaurs are not specifically mentioned?

*JR*
May 24th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Oh my - the dead has risen (and it's not even Easter! ;) )

Seriously though - JR, I have missed you as well. How are you doing? It is good to have you back.

As to your question, the Bible doesn't mention the names of lots of animals - why does it both you that dinosaurs are not specifically mentioned?
Come now, you're smarter than to ask such a question. But... like because they were so huge? Because ppl would have been their prey so often? Because the carnivorous ones likely would have been seen as creatures of Satan? Maybe JiT can help you out here! ;)

nash
May 24th, 2005, 06:57 PM
Come now, you're smarter than to ask such a question. But... like because they were so huge? Because ppl would have been their prey so often? Because the carnivorous ones likely would have been seen as creatures of Satan? Maybe JiT can help you out here! ;)


Genesis 1:24-25 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

A dinosaur is a wild animal, right?

And, in any case, the serpant is the only animal that IS mentioned by name in the days before the flood in Genesis, because the serpant had a key role in the events being told. Obviously dinosaurs did not.

nash
May 24th, 2005, 07:12 PM
I think there's a difference between well documented recent history event and an opinion based on faith.

:wavey:

The existence of God is certainly well documented. God has been written about in countless works, including the Bible. Archaeology itself lends credence to the accuracy of the Bible.

In any case, were you in the holocaust? If not, then how do YOU know it happened, other than by second-hand information (verbal and written)? Don't you take it on faith that what you have read and heard is accurate?

I'll go one further than that --> My belief in God is more than just faith. I have seen the evidence of His working in my life. I have felt His comfort in times of trouble. I have seen prayers answered.

It is not logical to assume all those things are mere coincidences, or the product of my overactive imagination. The evidence is there if one chooses to see it.

alexusjonesfan
May 24th, 2005, 07:28 PM
:wavey:

The existence of God is certainly well documented. God has been written about in countless works, including the Bible.


so has santy claus


Archaeology itself lends credence to the accuracy of the Bible.


yes, the parts of it that don't suggest people roamed around with dinosaurs


In any case, were you in the holocaust? If not, then how do YOU know it happened, other than by second-hand information (verbal and written)? Don't you take it on faith that what you have read and heard is accurate?


so anything that is relayed via 2nd hand information is equally accurate? I heard from my cousin's roomate's sister's boyfriend's uncle that you're wrong.


I'll go one further than that --> My belief in God is more than just faith. I have seen the evidence of His working in my life. I have felt His comfort in times of trouble. I have seen prayers answered.

It is not logical to assume all those things are mere coincidences, or the product of my overactive imagination. The evidence is there if one chooses to see it.

hey, I believe in God too. But that doesn't mean I reject science and proclaim that my interpretation is supreme over all others.

nash
May 24th, 2005, 07:43 PM
No, the holocaust is not based on faith. There are evidences I CAN TOUCH AND SEE that the holocaust happened.


Name one. If you weren't there and didn't experience it yourself, it's all second-hand information.


There is absotely nothing concrete that can show that God exists, it's only a matter of faith. What you describe are simply feelings created by your brain. There are already many studies showing that.


So, natural selection over millions of years produced me, a supposedly highly evolved creature - and yet my brain creates false feelings of a God that does not exist? Please tell me how these studies prove that my brain is inventing things that simply aren't there. Please tell me how science proves that the works I see everyday are all random, blind luck.


If you assume it comes from God, that's your opinion but it has no value in term of being a fact. There is a part of the brain that provokes reactions that lead people to believe in a superior force... Well proven scientifically. But of course, you won't read about it on www.christianitynews.com (http://www.christianitynews.com/) eh?

Excuse me, oh educated one. Far be it from this simple-minded, ignorant Christian to be able to comprehend your scientifically proven facts.

I'll say it again - the proof is there IF you want to see it. If you're not looking or unwilling to see, then you *will* miss it. Isn't God great? He puts all of creation in motion and loves us enough to reveal Himself to us, if we are willing to see and hear the truth.

nash
May 24th, 2005, 07:51 PM
hey, I believe in God too. But that doesn't mean I reject science and proclaim that my interpretation is supreme over all others.

Viggen - my comments were directed to someone who doesn't believe in God. Of course I don't believe the holocaust never happened just because I wasn't there personally to experience it.

All I am saying is that there is plenty of evidence that God exists, if one chooses to see it.

nash
May 24th, 2005, 07:52 PM
There is no proof God exists. Only minds fabulating.

Excuse me while I get my dictionary...

;)

nash
May 24th, 2005, 08:06 PM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345440331/ref=pd_sxp_f/002-2223913-5990423?v=glance&s=books


In Why God Won't Go Away authors Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., and Vince Rause offer a startlingly simple, yet scientifically plausible opinion: humans seek God because our brains are biologically programmed to do so.
Hmmm, so who programmed that brain, I wonder? :confused:

Researchers Newberg and D'Aquili used high-tech imaging devices to peer into the brains of meditating Buddhists and Franciscan nuns. As the data and brain photographs flowed in, the researchers began to find solid evidence that the mystical experiences of the subjects "were not the result of some fabrication, or simple wishful thinking, but were associated instead with a series of observable neurological events," explains Newberg. "In other words, mystical experience is biologically, observably, and scientifically real....

Hmmm, interesting that they chose meditating for the experiment? I've never meditated - only prayed to God. Does that mean I'm included? I'd hate to feel left out...

Gradually, we shaped a hypothesis that suggests that spiritual experience, at its very root, is intimately interwoven with human biology." Lay readers should be warned that although the topic is fascinating, the writing is geared toward scientific documentation that defends the authors' hypothesis.

Why am I not surprised? ;)

*JR*
May 24th, 2005, 08:55 PM
nash, I'll be sure to look @ the book you mentioned, though I have other reasons (our ancestors' need to explain their dreams, their existance, and natural phenomena) to explain why people are "programmed" to accept the supernatural.

I hope its better than the ones our pal JustineTime err, "swore by" (McDowell's) which were scientifically useless. (All that author did was find poorly reasoned theories by non-believers to knock down, and cite those as "proof" of his own theology).

BTW, once again I'm an agnostic, NOT an atheist, because the latter are as lacking in proof of why and where the universe came from as the creationists are.

gentenaire
May 25th, 2005, 05:46 AM
Nash, so basically you're saying we can program a belief into someone's head? If you say they've found what part of the brain is responsible for believing in God, you suggest humans can recreate it. Is it then really something you personally believe in or something you've been programmed to believe?

In any case, there still is no evidence God exists, absolutely none. But it's not because there's no evidence that it's not there. The existence of God is something people will never agree on because there is no clear cut evidence.

The point I was making earlier was people turning events that ARE clear cut, for which there is plenty of evidence, that they turn this into an opinion or a belief, that they start comparing it to believing in God or not. And that's wrong. Believing in God isn't wrong, ignoring facts IS wrong.

Of the holocaust is documented in pictures, images, that gas chambers are there, there are plenty of objective accounts, etc. Can you show me pictures of God?
I repeat, there's nothing wrong with believing in God. But it's based on faith, not on facts! That is the simple truth.

~ The Leopard ~
May 25th, 2005, 06:20 AM
I'd get involved further with this debate, but I have to go and walk my T-rex or he'll get restless and cranky. After that, I intend to drop in on my fellow deities, Odin and Thor, for a good yarn about what we did to those cave trolls last time we met up with them. They are going to take me on a brief tour of the latest public works in Valhalla (hmmmm, I wonder whether I can bring the T-rex along). And then the fairies at the bottom of my garden have to be fed. After that, the Great Queen Spider is coming around, and we'll need to discuss her new book in which she reveals the true life of Frodo the hobbit.

It's always so hectic here, dammit. Life just never lets up for me. Why, I was telling this to one of those little grey doctors from Mars just the other night as he was sticking the anal probe up my butt. :shrug:

Fingon
May 25th, 2005, 06:45 AM
Name one. If you weren't there and didn't experience it yourself, it's all second-hand information.


I can do it for her/him.

have you heard of Auschwitz? it's in Poland, the gas cameras still exist.

The allies, and the Russians found mass graves.

There are independent testimonies, and survivors.

There are document seized from the nazis that contains the orders to exterminate the jewish.

There are photographs, and may I remind you that photoshop didn't exist by the time the photos were published? there wasn't a technology to fake those photos.

you have the admission of some high level nazi bosses, such as Eichman or Kaltenbruner. There was a Nurbungring trial remember?

and I can add that even the word of mouth evidence is fairly recent, and backed up by millions, in a time where inventing fantastic stories is a lot more difficult than it was 2000 years ago, when the Bible was written.

The facts related to the holocaust can be proven, maybe not all but most of them, the facts in the Bible cannot because they describe something that happened 2000 years ago, when the scientific knowledge and the education level was much lower than it is today.

Remember that the Church said that the Sun spins around the Earth, or do you think it does?

Yours is a very known technique, deny everything and anything, put a doubt on everything, including our own existence, then claim you have the same right to believe what the Bible says is true than we to believe things that logic and evidence supports are true.

It doesn't work.


So, natural selection over millions of years produced me, a supposedly highly evolved creature - and yet my brain creates false feelings of a God that does not exist? Please tell me how these studies prove that my brain is inventing things that simply aren't there. Please tell me how science proves that the works I see everyday are all random, blind luck.


the brain does create false feelings, they can even be induced by drugs (not saying you take drugs but it's a proof the brain can be stimulated to see, feel, hear).

Science doesn't prove that what you see are all random (I don't even know what you mean), it proves that the explanation you give is wrong, and it also proves that it's possible to "feel" certain things without meaning they are supernatural.

the brain is a complex machine and science doesn't understand it fully, but it's undeniable there are some process going on there that we can't explain, some people "feel" that a girl next door likes them, and it's not true, it's a feeling, induced but who knows what.

Under the influence of drugs you can see visions, hear things, that's proven and documented, but drugs are only chemicals that stimualate certain areas of the brain, it can happen naturally as well.


Excuse me, oh educated one. Far be it from this simple-minded, ignorant Christian to be able to comprehend your scientifically proven facts.

I'll say it again - the proof is there IF you want to see it. If you're not looking or unwilling to see, then you *will* miss it. Isn't God great? He puts all of creation in motion and loves us enough to reveal Himself to us, if we are willing to see and hear the truth.

don't even get me into that, I don't have all night. The notion that God "loves" us is the weakest point of the Christian theory.

the idea of an almighty been loving is inferiors (us) is laughable, it's like to say that we love bacterias, love or hate are beyond someone (or something) that is almighty and perfect, that stuff about the free will simply doesn't add up, if everything is god's will, then how can my choice be free will? everything means everything so according with your theory, if I don't believe in God, is not my decision but God's decision, the idea that God plays some kind of games with us, being able to control everything but letting us decide is ridiculous to say the least, it doesn't follow any logic because according to religion even our intelligence and feelings originate in God, so how can we have free will, and why someone so powerful would waste time in us?

don't bother answering.

Fingon
May 25th, 2005, 06:51 AM
I'd get involved further with this debate, but I have to go and walk my T-rex or he'll get restless and cranky. After that, I intend to drop in on my fellow deities, Odin and Thor, for a good yarn about what we did to those cave trolls last time we met up with them. They are going to take me on a brief tour of the latest public works in Valhalla (hmmmm, I wonder whether I can bring the T-rex along). And then the fairies at the bottom of my garden have to be fed. After that, the Great Queen Spider is coming around, and we'll need to discuss her new book in which she reveals the true life of Frodo the hobbit.

It's always so hectic here, dammit. Life just never lets up for me. Why, I was telling this to one of those little grey doctors from Mars just the other night as he was sticking the anal probe up my butt. :shrug:

you know what's the funny thing when you mention Frodo?

when I read the Silmarillion (the book previous to Lord of the Rings that tells the beginning of the story) I realized that what Tolkien writes there is not different from what the Bible says, not less irreal or less fantastic, it's simply another version, just as much divorced from reality as the Bible is.

The funny part is that Tolkien's work is considered fiction but the Bible is not, only because the Silmarillion was written this century and people actually witnesses it, and Tolkien never tried to create a religion.

But if the very same book (that we all know is fiction) was written 2000 years ago and taught by some priest to the masses to convince them to obey them then it would be a religion, and 1 billion people would probably be adoring Iluvatar or Manwe instead of God or Moises.

alexusjonesfan
May 25th, 2005, 02:53 PM
I miss the Viking thread :sad:

JustineTime
May 28th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Hello nash, I've missed our little theological chats. Anyhow, I did check your link (and the one within it) regarding whether you creationists can explain why the Bible doesn't talk about the dinosaurs, when they'd have been pretty hard for our forebears not to notice. I couldn't find any mention of that, so perhaps you can explain it to me. :)


We-he-hell! :hehehe:

Look what the kitty-kat dragged in from the cold! :lol:

:p

I thought I recognized your writing style!

Back from the dead, are we? :hehehe:

:lol:

*JR*
May 28th, 2005, 10:04 PM
We-he-hell! :hehehe:

Look what the kitty-kat dragged in from the cold! :lol:

:p

I thought I recognized your writing style!

Back from the dead, are we? :hehehe:

:lol:
Actually, WTA World might BE the afterlife, and we're both really dead. Just don't ask me if its Heaven or Hell! :angel: :devil: