PDA

View Full Version : Muscles as Femininity


Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:16 PM
This thread was inspired by something in apoet29's Kournikova's Crisis Deepens thread.

If you asked me who the most 'womanly' woman on the WTA tour was, I'd answer 'Serena Williams' without a second thought. That isn't entirely unbiased. There are at least 30 women in my family who, if you added 20 pounds or so, then adjusted weight in proportion to height, are built exactly like Serena. Hips, breasts, thighs, big arms. Only the athletes among them have Serena's definition of course but to me, Serena's body is not that far out of the ordinary. The women on both sides of my family are kinda built like that.

The article in poet's thread quoted Anna as saying "I hate my muscles. I don't want to look like they [Venus and Serena] do. I'm not masculine like they are."

First, as Venus would say, Anna's entitled to her opinion. (My own opinion is that comparing Anna to Serena is like comparing a match to a forest fire. But Anna has her fans and I say God bless 'em.) So, second, can we please lay off the Kournikova bashing in this thread? The quote actually points out an interesting problem for many players.

A lot of the women on the tour are going to find themselves faced with a difficult emotional issue. They've been told all their lives that defined muscles are 'unwomanly' or 'unfeminine'. Yet, they've become professional athletes. For professional athletes, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, more muscles means better performance. These women face a choice.

1) They can be lift weights, get bigger muscles, and (maybe) be more successful. But sacrifice their 'femininity', in their own eyes. (Of course, they are REALLY sacrificing any such thing, but if it's THEIR perception, they have to deal with it.)

2) Don't lift, and don't be successful.

Even Martina Hingis showed up this year with (slightly) bigger arms and shoulders, and more definition. (And IMHO, her famed 'touch' would NOT suffer if she added more muscle mass to her arms, SLOWLY, like over a year.) So it's fair to say that more muscles is something ALL the most successful players are going for.

What do you think of this?
Do you find muscles 'unfeminine'?
Would you accept mediocrity in your chosen profession rather than get more muscles?

What would you do if you genuinely felt your choices were getting more muscles or continuing to lose? But you also genuinely felt that muscles were 'unfeminine'?

SM
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:22 PM
muscles are sexy...and besides its fun to show them off so id like it , even if i were a chick ;):).....they play as professionals , there paramount concern is to win no matter the sacrifice ..they arent there to look pretty , well most arent!!

TS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:25 PM
Im not really into huge muscles on females (dont flame me, just my opinion) so I voted for option 2.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:30 PM
Iva's #1 Fan - I'm not passing judgemnet here. I want to know how people's feelings split on the issue. My family being as it is, I obviously will vote for #1 when I vote. But it's hard for me to even really understand people who think musles are unfemine. Muslces on women are sexy. Can they BE both sexy and unfeminine? Maybe that's the topic of another poll.

Jetta
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:31 PM
I think that muscles are okay. Like Venus and Serena. They may be muscular, but I think they still look feminine.


What's scary is those female bodybuilders. They can be ridiculously muscular. I personally think they aren't very good to look at :rolleyes: (apologies to female bodybuilders)

TS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:33 PM
I kinda mean what Alexis is talking about...those types ;) Hence my saying "huge"...but I dont have anything against those that have them :)

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:35 PM
Of course 2..

Bright Red
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:37 PM
I'm a guy, so I can't answer for the gals. But if the question is whether or not muscles make women look masculine, then I'd have to say yes. Strong, well-defined muscles, like facial hair, a deep voice and broad shoulders are masculine characteristics.

I think a distinction should be made by recognizing that there are degrees of physical masculinity in females. There's a spectrum that goes from a little tone (fitness models) to the professional body builders that from a distance are indistinguishable from Arnold Schwartzenegger. I think that all of the women on the tour that could be called somewhat masculine fall on the side of the fitness models and can't be considered more masculine than feminine. Serena (except for the arms), is one of the most feminine with her shapely curves, facial features, smooth skin and girlish voice.

Another point that should be made (as pointed out by brickhousesupporter in apoet thread on Anna) is that it's questionable whether having strong muscles are a requirement for doing well. Look at Hingis and Henin. They're in the Top 10 and at a time when women's tennis is at its most competitive level.

Infiniti2001
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:38 PM
Definitely #1 for me... Like Volcana , it 's because of my family as well... If all the younger women in my family did not work out/lift a little, there's no telling how our thighs, butt and waist etc. would look :P

irma
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:40 PM
I go for 2 but I am not a sporter
but why is Anna`s I hate my muscles so special, I had a fav who didn't say different in almost every interview, she made rows with photographers who wanted to show them because it made her feel bad, of course she was number 1 so it didn't stop her career:)

TheBoiledEgg
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:44 PM
#2

She should be happy as she is.

Pureracket
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:45 PM
As a raving-leftwing-pc-liberal-upper middle class-male, I'm not all that comfortable in discussing issues dealing with "should be and shouldn't be" of a woman's body or femininity.:rolleyes:

However, I do think that women in competitive sports who focus on whatever it takes (whether or it be muscularity or leanness) are the ones who will most likely control their own destinies.

I think by virtue of the fact that a person is female automatically makes her feminine. I'm wondering what happened in history that made men the sole proprietors of muscle.

If a woman feels comfortable (as do many men), let them pump it up.

Volcana, this is a thoughtful thread. The women in your family sound beautiful.:p

TheBoiledEgg
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:47 PM
Yep all the players are female as they do have to under go a "Femininity Test" ;)

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:49 PM
I'm the only person on the entire board who can't make a link to an image work.

wave
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:54 PM
the two options are rather harsh aren't they?
I think the truth is in between. Getting in form is not bad, but I wouldn't like to look like those weightlifters you see on screen. Neither Venus nor Serena look that way. If you are only muscles as a woman you have no breasts and that is definitely not sexy for me... Serena has obviously enough of them...

So what you ask is really: What would you prefer:
Looking like Anna and not winning any tournament or looking like Serena and winning let's say 4 tournaments a year?
I think that's not a real intelligent question because neither we nor the two players can acutually decide out of these two options, can't we?

BTW: I have opted 2, but I don't like this question being linked to the two players...

TheBoiledEgg
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:56 PM
Perhaps the question would have been better put like this

"Would you want your girlfriend/wife or yourself to look like??

1 or 2 ???

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:59 PM
Of course, I am biased here, because for me WTA is only 50% sport, and 50% beautiful women. If success in tennis would require more masculinity in female's body, I'd simply switch to watching ATP only, they don't look as muscular as some of girls ( like Mauresmo or Serena ) and they play better tennis..:) So, the less of pure feminine beauty WTA possesses , the less interesting it is for me, and , I assure you, for an average male on this planet too..

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:59 PM
Bright Red - Henin lifts. I thin Martina does as well. Not for big arms. For strength. Also, if you've seen her up close, Serena doen't have real big arms. Mass wise, she isn't even up there with fitness competitors. But she's got great definition, and for a female tennis player, her arms ARE big. Monica, Lindsay, Kim, Amelie, any of them could have Serena's definition. IF they wanted to diet for something Serena comes by genetically.

But more to the point, Henin is a pretty successful player, and Hingis is an all-time great. Anna is neither. Justine and Martina can argue that they can succeed without more muscle mass. They don't however. They lift. Anna cannot argue that whatever it is she does brings her success as a singles player.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:03 PM
Egg - 1

griffin
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:04 PM
Muscles on women's bodies are fine and not unfeminine.

(muscles where people's brains should be, now that's ugly)

It's a false setup in another way - Anna could pump a whole lot of iron and still not look like Serena. Why? She's not built that way. Henin can whallop the ball, and I don't know a single person who'd (sober) call HER muscle-bound.

Anna (and anyone else) could add strength and power without bulking up with a proper training regimen. The whole ďI donít want to win if I have to look like THATĒ (Iíve said it before, Iíll say it again, if I had Venus or Serenaís body, Iíd play naked) strikes me as childish and catty, to be charitable.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:07 PM
I disagree. Muscles does not mean masculine. I am sorry but that is just wrong. Men don't have a corner on the muscles department. Every person is born with muscles just because males have the potential to develop them more does not mean it makes them masculine. Believe me I know a few body builders who are ultra muscular guys but are not very masculine in fact one is a big nelly queen! Which is cool with me.

Now when you talk women and steroids thats another matter because that is unnatural. Women who lift naturally are muscular and beautiful and feminine. The sterorid users are the ones i dont understand because they are only hurting themselves.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:12 PM
wave - I know the choices as written are harsh. But I think it FEELS harsh, if its you going through it. And I did suppose a person who felt that getting more muscles was unfeminine. I don't feel that way, so it isn't a problem for me. If you DID feel that way the choice can't be easy. Also, more muscles guarantees nothing. Mirjana Lucic is a big girl with some muscle mass. Elena Bovina can really smack it. Neither of them is very successful.

The choice really is, add muscle, feel worse about yourself, and MAYBE be more successful vs guaranteed failure. There are women on the tour who CAN'T volley Lindsay's groundstrokes. The racket gets knocked out of their hands. Without more muscle, they have NO chance. NONE. Anna seems to feel so strongly abo8ut this she's accept failure in her chosen profession. I'm not criticizing that. There are a lot of things I wouldn't do for athletic success. Like steroids, blood doping and hormone therapy. Everybody has to make their own choices.

Possible success w/guaranteed feeing worse about yourself vs guaranteed failure

It IS a harsh choice. But its a real one for some people.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:16 PM
BTW the votes 14-13 so far.

TeNnIsFaN
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:22 PM
If muscles helped me win...then hell yeah I would get muscels!! I wouldn't care what people would think about the muscles as long as they were helping me win.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:25 PM
If you have no idea what Female body building is all about, have a look at what all these people are objecting to. Hughes and Everson are two of the winningest competitors, and they are indicative of the sport. The others I chose at random from current competitiors.

http://www.bodybuilders.com/yol2.jpg
Yolanda Hughes

http://www.bodybuilders.com/cory15.jpg
Cory Everson

http://www.bodybuilders.com/ursula2.jpg
Ursula Sarcey

http://www.bodybuilders.com/jenny7.jpg
Jenny Worth

http://www.bodybuilders.com/bell10.jpg
Michelle Bellini

And yes, they compete in bikinis. Don't blame me for how they're dressed.

gogetter
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:32 PM
I think we're seeing an era where there are more women in sports than ever. And it's becoming more and more acceptable that women with muscles = women who are fit. I'm all for muscles on both women and men, because I too equate it to fitness. On the other hand, on both women and men, there comes a point where too much muscles just crosses the line of not pleasing. Needless to say, none of the WTA players have crossed this line. They're all very nice looking! Serena, Mauresmo, Jennifer-- bring them on! :D

apoet29
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by ys
Of course, I am biased here, because for me WTA is only 50% sport, and 50% beautiful women. If success in tennis would require more masculinity in female's body, I'd simply switch to watching ATP only, they don't look as muscular as some of girls ( like Mauresmo or Serena ) and they play better tennis..:) So, the less of pure feminine beauty WTA possesses , the less interesting it is for me, and , I assure you, for an average male on this planet too..

Is it just me or is YS a total sexist pig!?:eek:

wave
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:43 PM
Volcana, thanks for the answer.

Am I right that Steffi was some years ago asked the same question? I think she prefered to be fit, add some power and still show not "too" much muscles. Whatever too much would mean...

If this was possible for her, and she could compete for example with Venus and Serena, why not for Anna? I think muscles are not the only problem for Anna Kournikova. And she has not only lost to Venus and Serena, but also to other players who are not supposed to be as muscular. It seems to be a kind of excuse for not beeing successful. On the other hand I suppose that the interviewer asked her whether she should have more muscles in order to win against the big players, and then she said no, I don't want to look like... The real answer would probably be: Maybe if you give me a guarantee that I would be as dominating as those two... On the other hand I think that she would loose a lot of her contracts which seem to be dependent mostly on her looks...
Anna-fans, don't get mad at me, I like her, I'm mostly impressed that she looks good on every photo I see of her (how does she do it, and don't tell me that's simply because she is beautyful). If she's able to make so much money of her looks and her tennis game, that's also a success.

Volcana: Thanks for the pictures. As I understand there are certain classes for bodybuilders, aren't there? In which class would we have to put those women in the photos? Is this the highest class with the most muscles?

apoet29
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:48 PM
Fitness today is not about looking pretty on the court, but about strength, speed and endurance. In tennis, these traits are mandatory for a player to achieve any level of success. I believe that a female athlete can have muscles and still be feminine and beautiful. Serena, Venus, Amelia, Lindsay, Jennifer all have a lot of muscular strength, but these are beautiful women. Even Henin, Clijsters and Hingis have all built up in order to be more competitive in their sport. I don't see a problem or issue with it and it certainly hasn't hurt these players from getting attention as women.

As for Kournikova, those muscular quotes were attributed to her from a UK GQ article in 2001. I don't know if they are accurate or not. Truth to be told, I don't think building up muscle mass would make a difference in Anna's level of play, especially since she relies upon speed to get around the court. Honestly, I think Anna needs a coach who can help her with developing a game plan and tactical awareness rather than building muscle. She is perfectly fit as anyone who has seen her play will attest too. Her on the court problems have nothing to do with fitness and everything to do with what is going on inside her head.

BTW, great thread Volcana. The issue of fitness is a very interesting and provocative one.

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:50 PM
Serena looks like all woman to me in this picture!! :eek: :eek:

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/738f9c3f/bc/Mail+Attachments/Elle.jpg?bcwW3.8AwPbnBllE

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:58 PM
For me your question has two parts that are not necessarily related.

1) Are muscular women feminine?

IMO a big and fat NO. All the photos that you showed don't affect me in the slightest as a man. I don't feel attracted even a bit to any of those women, and from a look point of view, big and defined muscles are possibly the worst thing for me

2) Are proffessional athletes willing to build muscles in order to be succesful in their careers?

Well, you have to ask them, that's their choice and it depends on how important is their careers and their look for them. Everything has it's limits, and what can be great today can be a source of terrible problems tomorrow, and the tennis players are people who have a life outside tennis.

For example, take Serena, I personally don't like that type of body, not a bit but I understand there are people that do.

But Serena, although naturally gifted, is like this because she has worked, and works hard on her body. She keeps her muscles strong, defined, but she is 20 now. What will happen when she is 40? or 50? will she be willing and able to keep the level of training necessary to maintain a body like that?, how will it look if she doesn't?

On the other hand (and this is NOT Serena's case, as far as I know) there are limits, if success in their careers was everything and the only thing, then they should taked enhacement drugs. It's been said that during the communist ruling in East Germany, some athletes were treated with hormones and other drugs to improve their athletic abilities, they were succesful on that, but to what price?, they become little less than freaks thanks to that, I don't think it's a price anyone should pay for success

Again, that's NOT the case of tennis players, but you talked about athletes, many of those body builders use enhacements drugs, as there are limits to what you can achieve through liftin weights only, and remember one very important thing, most athletes start their careers being very young, not completely able to understand the implicancies of their choices. Their mentors only want then to succeed, and to succedd quickly and don't care about their lives outside the sport or their health. I believe that any program to enhance physical skills should be supervised by doctors, and maybe the WTA should drop the stupid age eligibility rule and instead concentrate on making sure future tennis players are not ruined in order to achieve "success"

anastasjoy
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:10 PM
Women's bodybuilding has undergone some controversy in recent years because the top competitors were indeed seeing how MUCH muscle they could build. That required use of steroids and resulted in some freakish physiques. Consequently, a new type of compeption called fitness competitions where the goal is to look more like the top tennis players: toned and muscular, but not freakishly huge. Personally as someone who has done weight trained- and really should get back into it- I vote for muscular all the way- particularly since the reality for most non-athletes is that the alternative is flab. And if you are that muscle-phobic you don't belong in pro sports. Even tiny gymnasts and figure skaters are extremely muscular.

Rollo
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:17 PM
Great thread-at least people are talking and this has always been
an issue in women's tennis, going back at least 100 years. When the top female of the 1930's (Helen Wills) wanted to break into movies the studios were very interested because of her gorgeous face. When she tested however, the studios decided she was too bulky. Her movie career was ended before it began.


My two cents:


Attractive or not, even Henin, Hingis and Kournikova have larger and stronger than average muscles. Like Volcana posted, even the less muscular women lift weights these days.


Too much bulk hurts competitors on court, making them slower because of the extra weight and taking more water. Agassi went overboard with weights at one time and ran into this problem.

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:26 PM
Rollo and anastajoy.

Of course if you are a proffessional athlete you have well toned muscles, that's obvious.

Of course Justine, Martina, Anna, Ai Sugiyama, and others have more muscles that the average woman that isn't a proffessional sports star.

This is not about having muscles or not having them at all, we are not comparing a body builder with mrs. Jones next door, it's about the differences between athletes in the same sport.

Anna has toned muscles, for sure, but there is a huge difference between Anna Kournikova and Serena Williams.

I have no problems with the way Anna, Babsi, Martina, Justine and many others look, they do have muscles but in my view, the right ones.

As I said there are two questions, translated into tennis players, if you ask me, who do you prefer, look wise, Serena Williams or Martina Hingis? I say without a moment of hesitation Martina Hingis.
Now, if you ask, should Martina Hingis build her body as Serena Williams in order to success, and then I tell you, ask Martina Hingis, will she give up her appearance and possibly future health in order to succeed? it's her decision.

Personally, I hope those players stay as they are, not only because IMO are visually attractive (while the muscular ones are not) but also, as I said before, if Martina Hingis started to win Grand Slams by being a power player, that would mean very little for me as the reasons for me liking here would fade away.

apoet29
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
Rollo and anastajoy.

Of course if you are a proffessional athlete you have well toned muscles, that's obvious.

Of course Justine, Martina, Anna, Ai Sugiyama, and others have more muscles that the average woman that isn't a proffessional sports star.

This is not about having muscles or not having them at all, we are not comparing a body builder with mrs. Jones next door, it's about the differences between athletes in the same sport.

Anna has toned muscles, for sure, but there is a huge difference between Anna Kournikova and Serena Williams.

I have no problems with the way Anna, Babsi, Martina, Justine and many others look, they do have muscles but in my view, the right ones.

As I said there are two questions, translated into tennis players, if you ask me, who do you prefer, look wise, Serena Williams or Martina Hingis? I say without a moment of hesitation Martina Hingis.
Now, if you ask, should Martina Hingis build her body as Serena Williams in order to success, and then I tell you, ask Martina Hingis, will she give up her appearance and possibly future health in order to succeed? it's her decision.

Personally, I hope those players stay as they are, not only because IMO are visually attractive (while the muscular ones are not) but also, as I said before, if Martina Hingis started to win Grand Slams by being a power player, that would mean very little for me as the reasons for me liking here would fade away.

Fingon,
Am I wrong or is it an issue of aesthetics with you? It seems to me that you are more concerned with Hingis, Kournikova, Henin and other players maintaining a certain look and avoiding a look that you find unattractive (i.e. Serena Williams, Amelia Mauresmo).

Serena Williams, Jennifer Capriati and other female tennis players who are quite muscular do work out quite a bit, but you also need to take into consideration that these ladies are probably genetically predisposed to having large muscles and working out enhances these muscles. Hingis could spend three hours a day in a gym and never be built like Serena Williams. Why? She is not genetically predetermined to be built in that way. Is her lack of power hurting Hingis? No. Her lack of confidence is and that is what Martina needs to work on.

You may feel that Henin, Hingis, etc have the right muscular build, but you are not taking into consideration that everyone is built differently and that there are different levels of femininity.

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by jp
If Hingis would become a "power player", that doesn't mean she would lose what you like about her: "finesse". Or maybe I just don't understand what "finesse" is.

jp, I don't care what the definition of finesse is, to put it in plain english, I find winning a point by blowing your opponent off the court boring. If I don't understand what finesse is, fine, it's just a term, I do understand what I like in a tennis player and certainly, power is not included in the package.

griffin
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:44 PM
What if it's a matter of her gaining enough strength so that opponents don't put her serves back down her throat? Do you think adding enough power to keep up with her opponents automatically makes her a "power player"?

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by apoet29


Fingon,
Am I wrong or is it an issue of aesthetics with you? It seems to me that you are more concerned with Hingis, Kournikova, Henin and other players maintaining a certain look and avoiding a look that you find unattractive (i.e. Serena Williams, Amelia Mauresmo).

Serena Williams, Jennifer Capriati and other female tennis players who are quite muscular do work out quite a bit, but you also need to take into consideration that these ladies are probably genetically predisposed to having large muscles and working out enhances these muscles. Hingis could spend three hours a day in a gym and never be built like Serena Williams. Why? She is not genetically predetermined to be built in that way. Is her lack of power hurting Hingis? No. Her lack of confidence is and that is what Martina needs to work on.

You may feel that Henin, Hingis, etc have the right muscular build, but you are not taking into consideration that everyone is built differently and that there are different levels of femininity.

Yes, you are very wrong, I like Justine because of her game, not her looks, same about Martina, I don't like Anna. But as I said (twice), the question has two parts, what is attractive, and what is good for a tennis player. If you ask me who is more attractive, Serena Williams or Anna Kournikova, I answer Anna wihout hesitating, now, if you ask me who I prefer to watch play tennis, I answer Anna as well, but for different reasons.

One of my all time favourites was Jana Novotna, and certainly, I wouldn't call Novotna attractive (others may disagree, but she was far from me IMO).

If looks were the issue, my top favourites would be Barbara Schett, Elena Dementieva, Jelena Dokic, Lina K.

I find Serena Williams, or Amelie Mauresmo unattractive in two different ways, as women and as tennis players, the reasons are related but are not the same, I find them not attractive as women because they are too muscular, I find them not attractive as tennis player because they are power players.

You are right about Martina though, she needs a sport psychologist rathen than a fitness trainer.

treufreund
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:51 PM
Fingon,

Do you really object to all use of power in tennis? I like finesse but I do think Martina should use more power/flatter shots to open up a point sometimes or once the opponent is on the defensive and then come to the net or do a swinging volley or drop-shot. I don't like players who use 90% power but 40% would not be being for me at all because part of what makes watching a player fun is variety. Besides Justine certainly uses power. :)

bmomomax
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:56 PM
Interesting thread, Volcana.

I'll try to keep this brief.

1) Body builders don't look the same all the time. During competition, they oil up and pump up to give maximum definition for the competition. After, they relax and the muscles smooth out.

2) Professional athletes make their income from the use of their bodies. So long as training does no harm (I don't agree that chemicals and ingested enhancements should be used) then it should be done to improve play.

3) Weight training (correctly done) actually helps in the aging process and in overall better health.

4) Tina Turner worked out with weights. Girlfriend is 60+ now - tell me that did her harm.

My vote? 1.

Finally, those that won't lift weights for fear they will appear masculine don't know enough about weight training to receive the benefits. Bummer for them.

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by treufreund
Fingon,

Do you really object to all use of power in tennis? I like finesse but I do think Martina should use more power/flatter shots to open up a point sometimes or once the opponent is on the defensive and then come to the net or do a swinging volley or drop-shot. I don't like players who use 90% power but 40% would not be being for me at all because part of what makes watching a player fun is variety. Besides Justine certainly uses power. :)

treufreund, I don't rule out power completely, it's ok to hit a flat shot to win a point. I don't like tennis build over power. Despite what some fans can say players like the Williams sisters, Davenport, Capriati, Monica, are power players and they win because of their power, not alone, of course the ball has to bounce inside the court but mostly. I've heard many times how Lindsay has soft hands despite her power, maybe but I rarely have seen winning a point using "soft hands", she wins the points by overpowering her opponents (and those are her own words btw).

Yes, Justine seems to use power, but the power on the backhand comes from technique and obviously not from muscular strenght ( as it's obvious). I like to be a shot beautifully executed as that backhand, regardless of the speed the ball takes, I don't like when it's a result of blasting the ball and when it's all you see. Besides, Justine can come to the net and hit real volleys (not what 90% of people understand for volleys), she can hit a drop shot, a slice, a lob, change the pace, the angle, there is a huge difference betwen Justine's "power" game and the real power babes.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:08 PM
wave - Yolanda Hughes is a heavyweight. So was Everson, though she preceded Hughes by a couple years. Both would DEFINITELY in the category anastasjoy referred to as 'freakishly huge'. I have to admit, I don't take fitness competitions tooserious. From an atheletic perspective, its strictly 2nd division. Anything a fitness competition has I can get mo' better from a real body building competition. The male boy builders have had drug problems inthe sport for far longer, and ingreater proportion, than the women. You don't see MALE 'fitness competitions'.

It just comes down, IMHO, to people being afraid of strong women. And nothing says 'strong' faster than muscles. (A lot of things say it BETTER, but none faster.)

Yolanda Hughes is a GRANDmother BTW, if you wonder how lifting hurts your health in later life. bmomomax is totally right. Lifting makes youHEALTHIER as youget older. It doesn't hurt you. If anyting, lifting too YOUNG hurts you. (I certainly wouldn't let a child below puberty do any heavy lifting. Strictly pushups and situps.)

vw43
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:18 PM
It's my opinion that you can be muscular and still look feminine. I think Serena is probably the buffest on the WTA and there is no mistaking her femininity in my mind.

It is a fact, however, that some players like Martina for example, could pump iron all day long and not be as powerful as Serena. It depends on body type. It also seems that in some cases you don't need to be muscular to have power i.e. Justine Henin. It's all a mystery to me.

:confused:

HAIL-VENUS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:56 PM
I did not vote, but I'd like to add my opinion:

First of all, I think that any person competing in sports should have the fittest body that they possibly can in order to get the best performance out of it. No matter how much one person may work out, they will only become as muscular as their body type and genetics will allow. Who's to say that, for women, bulking up would make them masculine. In Serena's case, she obviously has a different body type from the other women on tour, including her full blooded sister Venus. Her muscles carry more weight, while Venus's are well defined, her body is still long and slender. To me, Serena is very feminine although she's larger than the other girls. Serena's body does not make her masculine at all to me. I believe that femininity and masculinity are not as much physical as it is personality wise. I think it all depends on how a male or female carries themselves. I think that Serena carries herself in a very womanly manner. She seems to like pretty things, like accessories and feminine colors, and nail polish and hand bags, and pretty dresses and shoes. I mean, she's always well groomed. So, I think the level of a woman's femininity lies in her character and not in her bodily features.

Deira
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:13 PM
On the second page already and nobody has mentioned Kim's humongous thighs yet. Girlfriend does a mean split ;)

griffin
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:22 PM
Kim? pft! Girlfriend has cantalopes strapped to her femurs ;)

brickhousesupporter
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:25 PM
Hail Venus

I have to agree with you. When I look at Serena, I see a feminine woman. She is big but that does not take away from her wanting to look her best and always accesorizing (feminly characteristics). On the other hand a player like Justine just does not strike me as very feminine. Everytime I see her there is nothing special and she just does not have the soft curves that are feminine. This is not to take anything from any player, but I think femininity has to do with how you present yourself rather than the amount of muscles.

Dawn Marie
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:27 PM
Agree with Apoet, Griffin, Hail-Venus, Deira:)

Volcana your options are not realistic, you leave nothing down the middle.

Women look feminine and sexy with some muscle mass. have been for years. I personally think Serena has a nice body and Venus too. Both of them have nice shapes and are very feminine. Kim Clisters has nice muscle bounded legs, and I like Jennifer's shape. along with Ameile, these women are not some HUGE MUSCLE MACHINES, like Anna portrayed them to be.

Personally I think Anna's remarks were from jealousy and silliness. She was quoted in a GQ mag for god sakes. Of course she is not wanting to get fitter and add more tone to her body.. she is a pin up gal and then a tennis player.

I personally don't understand why a person who is a sports player would even suggest that the other ladies are too muscular and NOT feminine. Doesn't she see Serena's cleavage when she hits Anna's shot for a return winner? Doesn't she see Venus's long lean legs when she smacks a cross-court winner right past her? Or what about Jennifer? And Amelie? How can anyone who plays sports or watches sports honestly even think that these ladies are NOT feminine. Sure they may not been some flat butted skinny ninny, but they are extremely feminine.:)

YS, you have alot ot learn about women.

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:36 PM
YS, you have alot ot learn about women

Dawn, dear, learning is what life is about..:)

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:47 PM
Dawn-Marie - I thought using somewhat more extreme examples would lead to a better conversation. The athletes make up their own minds. I wanted to find out what the people who frequent this board thought. In that respect, I think the thread has been at least a moderate success.

Fingon
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Volcana

It just comes down, IMHO, to people being afraid of strong women. And nothing says 'strong' faster than muscles. (A lot of things say it BETTER, but none faster.)



why does it always have to be a sociological or psychological matter? why if I don't like muscular women it is because I am afraid of them?

Why can't it simply be that I don't like that, just that?, you don't have to find the psychological roots for that, I don't like muscular women simply because, well, I don't like them. I don't like men either and there isn't any specific explanation for that, I just don't find them attractive same as I don't find muscular women attractive. It's a personal thing, very subjective and I am not sure the "reasons" can be understood, it's maybe a chemical process I don't know, I only know that when I see a muscular woman, I don't feel attracted to her, and when I see those body builders, I feel disgusted, now if you think that's because I am afraid of them, be it, I don't think that pysical attraction has anything to do with fears but nevermind.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:20 PM
Fingon, in YEARS of reading your posts, you've been very consistent about this. You don't like power in women's tennis or anything associated with it. To me, muscles on moving women are God's way of reminding me there's a heaven. To misquote a line from 'As Good As it Gets', its why cavemen drew on walls.

Different strokes, eh?

I structured the initial post the way I did in part to counter-act my own biases. I could have made the choices

A) do the logical, healthy thing and bulk up

vs

B) Be a brainwashed simp and stay afraid of real strength.

'Stupid' would be a generous description of those choices. 'Close-minded' and 'insular' come to mind as well. But its a good deal closer to my gut level feelings. Well, my feelings often want things my intellect deosn't let them have. Instead, I made choices that i felt people could rationally discuss. Including me. You are absolutely, 100% correct that your choices could be solely a matter of your personal esthetic, having not one blessed thing to do with anything I said. That would, however, be somewhat at odds with my real-world experience.

Perhaps the important thing is, two such disperately opined indiviuals as ourselves can disagree civilly, if vehemently.

Ryan
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:43 PM
I'm the only person on the entire board who can't make a link to an image work.

Don't worry Volcana, neither can I.:rolleyes:



I have to say this is a great thread for discussing one of the major issues in womens tennis, and we all seem to be getting along.

From a personal note, I'm not in the least attracted to any of the body builder women you posted Volcana. I do think that muscles such as those body builders,make women look 'manly'. I do prefer women to look slimmer, and not be bulky, but that is solely from a standpoint of who I find attractive.


If you're in a professional sport, then of course you need muscles, but only you can decide on how much you're willing to do to become the best. I am not attracted to either Venus or Serena, but I'd never say they aren't feminine. To be feminine you don't have to be slim with no strength what so ever. Venus, Serena, Amelie, they are all in my opinion femimine. They're women, so whos to say whether or not someone is 'feminine'?

veryborednow
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:50 PM
wow! what a great thread - some pictures for people....
to make comparisons easier :)

http://datworld.com/athletes/kournikova/kournikova.jpg

http://www.cctv.com/sports/relation/040804/79/040804_1capriati0329.jpg

http://www.tenniscanada.com/2001cup/news_photos/serena_trophy.jpg

http://datworld.com/athletes/martinahingis/hingis.jpg

http://www.cnnsi.com/tennis/2001/wimbledon/news/2001/07/08/henin_family/t1_henin_ap-01.jpg

Ryan
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:56 PM
Great pics VBN!

IMO, Serena looks anything but masculine in that picture.

:D
:bounce: :bounce:

Infiniti2001
Apr 3rd, 2002, 10:17 PM
I have to agree with you. When I look at Serena, I see a feminine woman. She is big but that does not take away from her wanting to look her best and always accesorizing (feminly characteristics). On the other hand a player like Justine just does not strike me as very feminine. Everytime I see her there is nothing special and she just does not have the soft curves that are feminine. This is not to take anything from any player, but I think femininity has to do with how you present yourself rather than the amount of muscles.


AMEN!!!! If someone were to ask me to choose between the feminine bodies of Serena and Justine , I'd definitely go for Serena's. ( her muscles have nada to do with it) Justine just strikes me as a gawky breastless tomboy-- I can't help it .
How come I am the only one who can't see Amelie as this muscular looking woman???

thefreedesigner
Apr 3rd, 2002, 10:52 PM
I really liked clocker's definition that anyone female is by definition feminine (I think that's what you were getting at, if not I apologize) is spot on, if simplistic. But it's a point of view which I share: namely your femininity will OUT.

The other thing is that I personally really admire players like Amanda Coetzer, Anna Smashnova and also Tatiana Panova who (I would say) have sacrificed their bodies for their sport. It's so dramatic, and what I thought the essence of competing in sport was about. Whatever it takes.

OTOH I can personally can understand a woman not wanting to 'bulk up' too much.

Note: Anecdotely it's mainly Europeans who it would appear have stricter aesthetic principles, who tend to be less keen on working out and appearing 'unfeminine'. What this says about the perceptions and perpetuations of what women should and should not like across Europe is a debate for another time I guess... and it's perhaps no coincidence looking at where the last ELEVEN Grand Slams have gone (counting Mary Pierce as a N. American!).

Answering the question is difficult because I don't see how or why a women would/should bulk up if it made HER feel unfeminine (not that bulking up would make ME think she looked masculine), though I think she should bulk up if she feels it's the best thing for her sport.

If talking about a sportsperson in the third person: Option #1

Celeste
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:03 PM
I think it's a personal thing, but traditionally, women with lots of muscles are not considered feminine. But this is usually because bulked-up woman have lost any real feminine attributes, i.e. tits and hour-glass figure. Most of those women Volcana posted look like guys because they're flat. Serena is not a great example of the traditional "bulked-up" woman because she, despite being a brute, has huge cans and a kick-ass caboose. She has a very nice, traditional hour-glass look about her despite all the muscles. And she certainly knows how to show it off! Thus, I think, despite the huge arms and legs, Serena looks very feminine, much more feminine that Venus IMO, or even Davenport. You would never mistake Serena for a man with those boobs and rear-end!

So, putting myself in the shoes of a tennis player, if working out could make me look (and play, that's a big "if") like Serena (even if hours a day in the gym would have that effect on my body, another "if"), I'd do it in a heartbeat because Serena is not a "freak." If I had to look like some of those body-builders Volcana posted, which I guess is the "freak" we're talking about, maybe not. Anna makes her cash because of her body and looks. Tennis is very incidental. She'd be IMO a "C" or "B" Class celebrity even if she'd never played tennis. Yet again another reason why Anna v. Serena isn't quite the example we ought to be using.

Jessica02
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:29 PM
How about Option 3....

I dont like to look masculine, but I'll do whatevers necessary to be successful.

Anna was out of line saying the 'Williams sisters looked mascueline' they dont at all extremely feminine do they have short hair, do they flat chests, do they not have any manners!
No so they are not masculine they have muscle.

Anna hasnt won a title she can with what shes got, but its not about looking gorgeous on court. Its about winning titles and being succesful in your actual sport.
Ok anna is beautiful, but wheres that going to get her. In 20 years time are people going to be talking about Anna..err no because she hasnt won anything. Will they be talking about the Williams sisters...err YES...
Thats what it comes down to at the end of the day.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:36 PM
As far as attraction goes I agree with whoever posted above. :-) Like my boyfriend is totatly into Venus and Serena. He thinks they are God's gift to mankind and would drop rose petals at their feet and who knows what else if I wasn't around to keep him in line:wavey:

On the other hand martina and anna do nothing for him. They are feminine just like serena and venus but their looks don't appeal to him. To each his or her own, right? Some like muscles, some like slim or toned, some like tall some like short, some like voluptous(sp) some petite some like black some like white some like everything inbetween hell some guys like a gal with something extra(if you know what i mean):eek: Who can figure men out anyway?

All I know is that I want Mike Sell. Someone please oh please send me Mike. I told monica that I would trade her my bf for mike, just think she'd get a young hunky engineer for some lame old tennis coach! Trade me monica trade me!

anabel
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:47 PM
I would prefer to be an Anna than a Serena....

Ryan
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:48 PM
Calm down cybelle, you're slobbeing everywhere.;)

And I'd trade my gf in a split second for Anna, Martina, Maria Sharapova(same age) or Barbara Schett.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:54 PM
hmm I would definitely prefer to be a serena than an anna. If I were a serena I would have:

1)beauty
2)talent
3)winning personality
4)titles
5)gs title
6)venus as a best friend
7) an education
8)endorsements


:wavey:

hmm if i were an anna i'd have:

1)talent
2)endorsements
3)um an erique iglesias video cameo(he is hunky)
4)um a hockey team engagement ring for each toe and finger?
5)a few wins over top ten players
6)unfullfilled potential
7) um a snotty attitude toward brie rippner
8) a prima donna complex

Crazy Canuck
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:11 AM
If I was a professional athlete, I would by any means that were healthy, do whatever I could to imrpove my chances of winning.

What is the point in being a pro athlete if your not willing to put in the dues to make the most of your carreer? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

I would pick number one in a heart beat - being a pro athlete is all about sacrifice - and I'd hardly considering making my body more muscular to be a sacrifice.

Ask me who's body I would rather jsut be able to wake up one day with - Serena's or one like Anna or Hingis - I'd opt Serena.

My reasoning? I know I can get a figure like HIngis or ANna - I'd only have to drop a few pounds,.. I alreayd have a pretty similar build to them anyhow. IMO, there is nothing special about that build. They are a dime a dozen, so to speak.

But with Serena - how many people off the top of your head have a build just like Serena Williams? She is SOO defined, but still round and curvy. I'd love to have that - but its something that I can never have, cause its not how I was made :)

Although I would never desire to have a body builders physique (I find it un natural looking), unless I was to meet those women I couldn't flat out say there weren't feminine just by looking at a picture of them.

For some reason, some people expect all women to look a certain way, and if they don't fit that small window of perfection, then they are not considered female enough.

Its a very old attitude, and one that I hope diminishes by the time that I have children.

RockSteady
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:25 AM
I find women with muscles totally unattractive, and sometimes disgusting. What makes women sexy is their softness...when I see Anna Kournikova or Martina Hingis, they just look so delicate. When I see Serena Williams, Capriati, or (ugh) Amelie Mauresmo I see half a man (:p am I a Hingis fan or what?). Could you imagine getting intimate with any of these women? They're just too damn big! I can't really explain it, I just find it unattractive.

Let's reverse the question: would you ladies rather have a soft, delicate guy or a muscular guy? Call us men sexist for putting down muscular women, when you do the EXACT same thing to soft, weak men.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:33 AM
julian sands is not muscular and is a dainty guy who I think is a hottie. Really in all the world you can't name one woman athlete with an athletic body that you find attractive? c'mon rock there has to be someone!

Crazy Canuck
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:35 AM
"I find women with muscles totally unattractive, and sometimes disgusting. What makes women sexy is their softness...when I see Anna Kournikova or Martina Hingis, they just look so delicate. When I see Serena Williams, Capriati, or (ugh) Amelie Mauresmo I see half a man ( am I a Hingis fan or what?). Could you imagine getting intimate with any of these women? They're just too damn big! I can't really explain it, I just find it unattractive.

Let's reverse the question: would you ladies rather have a soft, delicate guy or a muscular guy? Call us men sexist for putting down muscular women, when you do the EXACT same thing to soft, weak men."



No offense, your entitled to you opinion - but you jsut perfectly displayed the attitude that I was talking about.
THe "women ahve to look such and such a way or they aren't good enough" attitude.

Its this attitude that is one of the many things wrong with society today IMO. In steading of celebrating all shapes and sizes, are society, through the media, shows us that in order to be successful and accepted, that all women have to look and act a certain way. The pressure that this puts on young women is unbeleivable.

Everytime something goes wrong, or you don't succeed, you cant help but ask yourself "if I was thinner, or more this, or more that, would it help?" I do this every single day. Not a day passes that these thoughts don't plague my mind. And I'm healthy.

As for doing the same thing to men - I'm sorry but the two issues dont' even compare. The number of womens with eating disorders and self esteem problems today is unbelievable. I'm sorry but the the problems that smaller men have can't even compare to this.

Every man who goes into show business isn't expected to look like Britney Spears. Every man isn't expected to have some exact set of measurements or they are considered too fat. YES they have some stresses, but not to the same degree.

Personally, I've never liked anyone more than two inches taller than me. And I've never liked anyone really built. So I'm hardly a hypocrit on the matter.

Crazy Canuck
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:37 AM
There are plenty of men who are not HUGe who many women find attractive - Jude Law for example, doesn't have a very large build.

Tom Cruise is only what, 5'6?

I could go on and on and on about this.

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Becca
There are plenty of men who are not HUGe who many women find attractive - Jude Law for example, doesn't have a very large build.

Tom Cruise is only what, 5'6?

I could go on and on and on about this.

what do you exactly mean with "huge?"

RockSteady
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:47 AM
Cruise is far from skinny, though.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with muscular women. I just don't find it attractive, or 'feminine', so to speak.

That doesn't mean I don't like strong women, or that I like skinny women. If a woman can do twenty pull-ups, good for her. I just prefer a woman that can do twenty pull-ups without looking like a woman that can do twenty pull-ups. It's very subjective, though.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:53 AM
Oh I misunderstood. The guy would definitely have to be huge in that department, okay! Back me up ladies and gay guys, if the fella don't have the goods he's gotta get out of the store! screw all that "size doesn't matter" and give it to me!

um okay i've calmed down now. sorry my bf is on a looooong business trip whaaaaah! I have to make do with mr pokey.

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:56 AM
I think we soon will need an age verification system to read the board :o

tennischick
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:59 AM
great thread and nice discussion. sorry i'm late to the fray...

the initial question posed was "if you were a pro", would you etc etc. if i was a pro i would do anything that was legally and ethically permissible to win. if it would help my game to acquire Serena's physique (assuming that she and i have the same height/body type etc etc), i would muscle up in a heartbeat.

would that make me less feminine? to some men (and women)yes; to others, no. it comes down to a question of personal esthetics and taste. but that would not be a determining factor in my desire to win as a pro. that's what the job calls for and that's what i would want to do! and if muscles would help me do it, then pass the creatine!

as a non-pro however, i prefer to look fit and healthy but not necessarily as muscled as Serena. that's a personal choice.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:04 AM
Am I being x rated again? I am truly sorry:kiss: its just that mr pokey gets lonely if I dont give him attention, heck even my bf loves mr pokey(which really freaked me out when I caught him)Mr pokey and I were not happy with each other after that episode but we've grown close again.:wavey:

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:07 AM
maybe you should post a photo of you and Mr Pokey together having, ermm... fun

Crazy Canuck
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:10 AM
Fingon - by HUGe I meant really muscular builds, and nothing else. :)

For example, I have many freinds who find Toby Mcguire really attractice, and he's quite thin and not really tall.

How many short, chubby, women in show bus have male fans drooling over them?

Thats a whole topic altogether, so I won't go there anymore.

Howver, this was a great topic to start Volcana. I am always interested to see what people have to say about things like this.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:11 AM
:cool:
Lol then you'll my pic to some internet porn site and I would lose my job and then I'd have to sue ya or have to join a xxx cam site to pay the bills or do a playboy photo spread.

Then again a pic exchange might be kinda kinky. okay but first you must get your own mr pokey to take a pic to send me of you having fun.
:angel:

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:12 AM
with mr Pokey? no way

xan
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:13 AM
1st. As far as sport goes, theres no question. If women's sport wants to be taken seriously then the answer to the question has to be to acquire the fitness necessary to compete at the highest possible level, drugs excluded.

2nd. It is a false distinction between "feminine" and "muscular".

Some people don't like women with visible muscles - so? As someone said earlier, others don't find skinny Justine-Henin-types attractive.


In fact if we look at some of the more muscular players, we find that quite a few of them are among the players generally considered amongst the sexiest.

Consider:

Mary Pierce
Barbara Schett
Alex Stevenson
Meghann Shaughnessy

Kim Clijsters
Iroda Tulyaganova
and Elena Dementieva are also no lightweights.

Elena is perhaps not considered "muscular" but that is more her body shape, which conceals her power. Someone like Elena could hit the weights for five years, and still not look anything like Kim or Serena. She might be just as powerful though.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:13 AM
lol @ Fing oooh well you almost had a deal:bounce:

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:20 AM
Xan, Barbara Schett is well toned, but I wouldn't consider her muscular, if so, then I like muscular women!!!

Meghann Shaugnessy? are you sure that wasn't a typo?

longtimefan
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:30 AM
A couple of years ago I'd have said "no muscles, please". Then I saw a magazine photo of Mary Pierce posing to show off her wieght training body. Wow! The muscular frame looked absolutely right and, at that time, Mary was playing well with her fitness a clear asset. So I have no problem with muscling up if it is the players choice without pressure from sponsors etc. However I would want the muscle gain to be from working out not from steroid enhancement. Frankly if my beloved Martina Hingis would gain from serious bulking up I'd say go for it.
p.s. I would not wish my wife to join this regimen. If I'm running scared I'm damned if I'd want her to be able to catch me!

xan
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:45 AM
Babsi has a few muscles, Fingon:

http://www.barbara-schett.com/bilder/fotos/action/frenchopen02.jpg

http://www.barbara-schett.com/bilder/fotos/action/doha.jpg

Meghann has a far leaner frame, but has worked hard to build some muscle.

http://www.jacksonville.com/images/galleries/bl041301/10spt_b_lmeghannhi_407.jpg

Celeste
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:46 AM
What guy wouldn't want to bang Serena with those tits? Come on! Muscles or no muscles, she edges Sandrine out for biggest boobs on the tour! Most guys, boobs are all that matter.....I ought to know! All this "I want this, or I want that." Garbage! You'd guys screw any of the the Top 10 in a heartbeat if you had the chance :D Let's get real!

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by xan
Babsi has a few muscles, Fingon:

[

just the right ones :p

Celeste
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:48 AM
Yeah, and if Schett isn't 99% of every living man's fantasy, then my name isn't Celeste. And I can assure you, she's no Serena, but she's no softee in the muscle department either!

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Celeste
Yeah, and if Schett isn't 99% of every living man's fantasy, then my name isn't Celeste. And I can assure you, she's no Serena, but she's no softee in the muscle department either!

Celeste, you are right, I never said I want women with not muscles, Babsi is just... right.

I can tell as I saw her in person

xan
Apr 4th, 2002, 02:12 AM
Having seen Iroda playing last week, I think she has to be No 1 in the boobs department!

http://www.lequipe.fr/Xml/Tennis/Dossiers/Media/tulyaganova1_reuters_2207.jpg

Fingon
Apr 4th, 2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by xan
Having seen Iroda playing last week, I think she has to be No 1 in the boobs department!



It's weird I've seen those photos before but I've seen Iroda in person practicing, and was very close to her, and didn't notice anything extraordinary in the boobs department, and believe me, knowing me I should have noticed that.

From my live technical observation at the Canadian Open, the best boobs are:

Serena :drool:
Sandrine :drool:
Babsi :drool: :drool: :drool:
Sandra Cacic: :drool:

I can't understand how I missed Iroda's or maybe it's just in the photos?

Dawn Marie
Apr 4th, 2002, 06:01 AM
:eek: http://photos.wtastarz.com/data/1akoupic329.jpg

Sam L
Apr 4th, 2002, 10:08 AM
A very interesting topic...

IMO feminity comes in different forms, just because you muscles or pumped up that doesn't mean you're not. I feel that all the tennis playing women are more muscular than average women, that's a fact. So I guess the degree to which you are muscular equals to attractiveness and it really depends on the person also.

Gandalf
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:50 PM
I personally think that muscles are not as important in tennis as this thread makes them out to be.

I, for one, don't find Venus 'muscular'. I think Anna can generate enough pace herself without getting too muscular. On the other hand, Coetzer is maybe as muscular as Serena and she doesn't hit hard at all. It's more about size and timing, IMO...

And also, if Hingis would bulk up, she would not become a power player, because she is not used to playing that way. She would simply make more errors.

Experimentee
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:24 PM
I think Serena is a very good looking girl. Muscles can be sexy, but if your a player who isnt comfortable with having them then you shouldnt try to bulk up. At the end of the day feeling good about yourself is the most important thing, not winning.

victory1
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:47 PM
Please for those of you who don't think Hingis is muscular, I guess you have not seen her live, because she is very bulky. My cousin just saw her at NASDAQ, and my cousin is also 5'7 and very slender, she was very surprised how muscular Hingis was, obviously not as big as Serena, but she said Hingis was more bulky then Venus.

She was also surprised with Elena Dementieva, she said last year she wan tall and skinny, but this year she look way bigger than Venus, especially her legs!!

Volcana
Apr 4th, 2002, 03:40 PM
52 Option 1
29 Option 2

So far

This 'conflict' exists in other sports. Look at Michelle Kwan. Beautiful skater. But if she wants to keep competing for gold medals now, she going to have to do near maximum numbers of triple jumps. Kwan has never been the highest or strongest jumper, but the other 3 candidates for any gold medal can all do the maximum seven triple jumps in a program. So to compete at the highest level, Michelle Kwan has to jump higher, more and better, even if she has to sacrifice her own ideas of grace and beauty. The athletic minimums for the sport were raised at the last Olympics.

So too, in tennis, the athletic minimums for winning GS titles have been raised. I'm not sure if it was in this thread or the inspiring one, but someone mentioned something I hadn't realized. North American power players have won the last eleven (11) GS titles in a row. That's all the surfaces. And it's five different players, so it isn't one player's run skewing the stats. To me, that says to win a GS title today, you HAVE to be able to generate a lot of pace, and you have to be able to generate it for an entire match. And your joints have to be able to withstand the more powerful shocks that come with that game.

All bodies are different, so you never know how anyone will look. But MOST people are going to wind up with bigger muscles if they attempt to acquire those things. IF you want GS titles, I think these days you have to be willing to go to the maximum of your physical potential. Obviously, "maximum of your physical potential" if your sport is shot put is a bit different than for tennis. Which is different than for swimming the English Channel. And Justine Henin will never be built like Serena. Which she need not be. For her frame, Justine has plenty of muscle and no qualms about acquiring more if she needs it.

What it comes down to is, the players with a problem about developing muscles won't be winning any GS titles.

In five years, the players with a problem about developing muscles won't even be seeded in GS tournaments.

paigery
Apr 4th, 2002, 03:53 PM
I think for women who will only be professional atheletes they have less intimidation about muscle tone than the average woman. I do think a healthy body is attractive, and I am sure with the top trainers in the world at their disposal the players will only get "so" built up. I think the majority look fine off the court in regular situations and clothing. Nowadays, fit arms and tight muscles are the rage!!! Go girls, the womens tennis circuit is dominating the mens, so have fun with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bounce:

victory1
Apr 4th, 2002, 03:58 PM
I'll second that Paigery :wavey:

Rollo
Apr 4th, 2002, 05:35 PM
OMG Pigery-your avatar is so CUTE:kiss:
What a wise old kitty cat you are...

paigery
Apr 4th, 2002, 06:07 PM
I try, really!!!!!!!!! I am growing to love you all:wavey:

-Sonic-
Apr 4th, 2002, 07:00 PM
Iroda does indeed have the best boobs.

the cat
Apr 4th, 2002, 07:37 PM
Celeste, please don't speak for most guys.

Serena is magnificent. She has the greatest physique of any woman tennis player. Maybe any woman athlete. Anna is sensational. But her frame cannot hold the muscle mass and weight that Serena and the others have.

Muscular or skinny? As we say in the suburban 'hood, it's all good!

Dawn, what does kinds scawy mean?

Tatiana Panova
Apr 4th, 2002, 08:17 PM
Good post.

I personally a woman can be feminine and muscular. It is rather impossible for a woman to lift naturally and get huge muscles, so lets leave the steroid-junkies out of it - they are taking androgenic hormones and of course they will masculinize!

Serena is very feminine and a lot of black people and athletes are naturally built like her. I would not say that Venus was muscly at all. Jennifer is quite butch I have to say and she is quite masculine, but she lifts a lot of heavy weights. We have to realize also that this is their job and so what if it means looking butch for a few years. But Jen does not act masculine at all.

I cannot see the muscle thing going much further than say Serena's build. Muscles can only take you so far - flexibility, timing, tactics and strength make a good tennis player. Tennis players need to be lean and mean not Chyna!!

I would much rather a woman looked after herself and was toned than some lazy mama who sat on the couch eating crisps all day. I also think that people's acceptance of muscularity has increased in women and it is now fashionable to lift weights - e.g. Madonna, Geri and others. A woman should have the right to make the decision though, and if she wants big muscles then so be it!

veryborednow
Apr 4th, 2002, 08:37 PM
thought i'd show you this - not really on the subject sort of is.... but still funny :)


Category
Marilyn
http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2002/0404/photo/monroe_vt.jpg

Anna
http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2002/0404/photo/s_anna_vt.jpg

Could be overwhelmed by ...
Any older man who wanted to "take care of her"
Any player ranked in the top 100

Hated comparisons to ...
Betty Grable
Zippy Chippy

Photo of her wind-blown skirt enraged ...
Joe DiMaggio
Enrique Iglesias and half the NHL

The Seven-Year Itch was ...
One of her best films
A reminder that she turned pro at the end of 1995 ... you do the math

Breakthrough role
"All About Eve"
All about getting out of the first round

Vital stats
37-23-36 -- or so the studio claimed
$15 million in endorsements per year -- and even more downloads

Couldn't go on without ...
Her acting coach, Natasha Lytess
The Internet

Her father
Identity was unknown
Ironically, is named Sergei Kournikova

Her childhood
Spent mostly in foster homes and orphanages
Spent mostly in Nick Bolletierri's tennis academy

Was embarrassed by ...
The release of nude photos once she hit it big
WTA's insistence on keeping score

Often lost ...
Games of love
Love games

Accusations
Once accused husband Joe DiMaggio of slapping her, possibly as a way of obtaining a divorce
Once accused Pavel Bure of having a vicious slap shot, possibly as a way of making Sergei Fedorov jealous

Good memories
Greatly enjoyed getting a good night's sleep under the influence of downers
Once won a doubles title (with Martina Hingis) Down Under

Da bomb
Sang "Happy Birthday" to JFK, who threatened to bomb the Russians during Cuban Missile Crisis
Speaking of Russian bombshells ...

Disillusions
Dreamed of becoming the First Lady
Dreamed of being pretty and good at tennis

Flighty moments
Once had an affair with JFK
Once got a cheap fare out of JFK

Became an oasis for ...
Servicemen stationed abroad
Geeks using the web

Taught us that ...
"Gentlemen Prefer Blondes"
Blondes prefer hockey players

Parting shots
Her last movie was "The Misfits"
Her best offensive weapon is when her opponent "mis-hits"

paigery
Apr 4th, 2002, 10:23 PM
Jennifer Capriati does not look butch, (whatever) :rolleyes:

She and allot of the other players are fit and not masculine at all...............Get a clue

tennischick
Apr 5th, 2002, 02:43 AM
fantastic stuff VBN. very funny....you guys keep inspiring me!

Originally posted by veryborednow
thought i'd show you this - not really on the subject sort of is.... but still funny :)...

Weevee
Apr 5th, 2002, 01:20 PM
If 'muscular' is like Serena, I'm all for it!

Williams Rulez
Apr 5th, 2002, 03:12 PM
I don't see how this girl can be masculine...

http://club2.telepolis.com/tenisaragon/serena/serena%20williams.jpg

GrandSlammed
Apr 5th, 2002, 06:51 PM
http://www.nasdaq-100open.com/news/players/images/2002/swilliams02.jpg

http://www.nasdaq-100open.com/news/players/images/2002/swilliams01.jpg

Tatiana Panova
Apr 6th, 2002, 01:30 PM
Paigery I have a clue....

Jennifer is butch in my opinion, and my eyes cannot deceive me.