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View Full Version : Is nationality a 'valid' reason to like a player ?


GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:42 PM
Not really, in my opinion.

I think in most cases the game style and oncourt mentality should decide which player appeals to you. The nationality (and other non-Tennis-reasons) doesn't play a part in that.

Of course there are exceptions. If you have the same nationality like a player, you may know more about him/her out of the press, TV etc. So you may have more factors to like him/her or not.
Or you could think that the success of the fellow player supports tennis in your country, so you could be happy about his/her wins.

But I don't think the nationality can make you 'love' the player when the game-style and the (oncourt-) personality doesn't appeal to you.

veryborednow
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:44 PM
:) I don't think so either - I don't really support any British players cos I can never see them on TV. I suppose I'm a glory support (especially now Jen's #1)

It's such an individual sport that nationality really only counts for something during the Fed Cup.

aura of daniela
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:50 PM
I'm an Aussie, and we don't really have many top line player, but I do like Hewitt. But not because he is Australian, because of the player he is.
But saying that, I do have something that draws me to the Spanish players, not all of them, but quite a few.
My favourite men's players are Carlos Moya and JC Ferrero so......
I guess I really love all the European players.
So I guess Continent may be my Valid reason to like players.
Daniela from Slovakia, Federer from Switzerland.
But I guess there is a big majority of the tour players from europe so it's hard not to have a favourite from there.


Simon V

Nacho
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:52 PM
Well, I think the nationality is quite important for many people, at least in this board (you only have to see how belgians, spaniards etc support their players :rolleyes: )

babsi
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:54 PM
The problem I find with Nationality players is that it brings an unnecessary bias with it, I have seen it on the board so many time, because this player (insert the country) they will win. People don't say this but that is the general feeling I get when reading messages. I support players because I like them as people, nothing more, nothing less.

But nationality in football is a different matter!...Nobody will come close to beating England...just bias coming in!

Sonja
Apr 2nd, 2002, 03:59 PM
I don't think once has to have a "valid" reason to support a player. Support is support - who cares about the reason?

treufreund
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:01 PM
I don't give a rat's ass about nationality (or race or sexual preference either. blah. it's all so TIRED!) It's all about play style and or aura/personality. Daniela is wonderfully composed and serene. Martina is so graceful, vibrant and creative and has a great smile and every shot in the book. Jennifer is such a spirited fighter. Sandrine is such a sweet lady. Justine is so fiery and I love her backhand. Daja is always there for the next shot and has great feel. These are the things that matter. Not nationality or other "categories"

Gallofa
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:02 PM
What is a "valid" reason to like a player? I am a bit tired of those who think they have superior reasons or knowledge of tennis just because their favourites are not from their home countries.

There is nothing "valid" or not "valid" about liking someone.

People cheer for people they can relate to, to players they like as role models or simply because they think they are hot. I say, as long as you are respectful, good for you. Support people of your same race, ideology, hair color or sexuality. I am certainly not going to be there shaking my head as if I had more "valid" feelings than they did.

You can consider yourself a "true tennis fan" GoDominique. I know how much some people here like to call themselves just that. I will be cheering for the Spanish players meanwhile.

GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:09 PM
Gallofa, I have no doubt that you are a good fan.

The question is: Is the emphasis on 'tennis-fan' or 'fan of your country' ?

treufreund
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:11 PM
Gallofa:wavey:

I like Spanish players for the most part because of their longer rallies and on court presence. Sometimes they need to be a little bit more aggressive but are great players. I hope you don't think I am saying that others are not allowed to have their own reasons for liking a certain player. I just meant that for me nationality, race, sexual orientation, hair color, booby size, muscularity, height play no role. Now if I guy player has a cute body, face or package or buns I *might* , might root for him but they all wear such baggy ass clothing that it usually doesn't matter. Hehe. :o Besides tennis players tend to be to skinny for me. I like muscles not the lean look. Typical American I guess but when I lived in France and Germany I thought the guys were very very handsome but often TOO slender. I like guys that are trim but not FRAIL looking. Anyway off the subject severely. (Hence I have NO IDEA what is appealing in the least about JCF or Hewitt's bodies. I just like their games.)

The Crow
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:11 PM
What Bea said. Like the hair color one :) Go Sarah Pitkowski!! ;)

wave
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:13 PM
It seems like I'm the living proof that nationality has nothing to do with having a fav. For me it is too easy just to like a player because he has the same nationality. In the end neither the player nor me has done anything to have this nationality (with certain exceptions). For me it is more important to like the character of a player (at least the character we think a player has) and the style of play and the behaviour on and off court.
But on this board a lot of posters cheer for players of the same nation and sorry to say that even more important of the same race... I don't want to judge that, because if I may borrow some words from Venus: "Everyone's entitled to his own opinion..."
(Sorry if the quotation is not correct).;)

TheBoiledEgg
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:14 PM
For me the Russian girls come first ;) I've had the pleasure of meeting quite a few players and they do tend to end on my list.

but my list of favs runs upto around 1000 ;) so I got alot of favs but only about 20 in top 100.

Gallofa
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:15 PM
GoDominique, I think anyone who cares enough to log into the Internet, search for a tennis board, and actively participate in it, can be safely consider a big tennis fan.

Personally, I think every single poster in this board is a true tennis fan, we sometimes get a bit carried away and lose sight, but on the whole, anyone in here knows and cares more about tennis than half of the people that work for the WTA or the ITF.

GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:17 PM
What I think is most important is that, even when you mostly cheer for fellow countrymen or good-looking players or whatever, you are still able to appreciate good performances or intelligent games of players which doesn't fit in one of the 'non-tennis'-categories, so you can maybe add them to your other favourites.

Fingon
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:17 PM
Although I would never like a player based on nationality, I don't see any problem with others doing it.

The problem is when it's taken beyond the sport and tries to involve tennis with issues that have nothing to do with it. It applies to nationalism, racism and all the other ism.

treufreund
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:18 PM
:wavey: 2 wave. Yes pun intended. :o

Bist du schon mal beim "Man spricht DEUTSCH" gewesen? Ich wollte nur mal fragen ob es Weinbaugebiete in der Naehe von Stuttgart, denn mein Freund ist Weinbauingenieur und wir suchen eine Grossstadt, die nah an Weinbaugebieten liegt. Ich moechte studieren aber will nicht in einem Dorf auf dem Lande leben. Zu langweilig.

GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:21 PM
Eggy is an exception here ... meeting all the players ... who else can say that ? ;)

Of course you will cheer for people you know personally and who interest you.

The Crow
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:22 PM
So I guess you all don't care about FED-cup?

Mazza
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:25 PM
I don't support someone just because they are British, in fact the only British players I like are Greg Rusedski and Alex Bogdanovic but that is not because of their nationaility. There is nothing wrong with liking a player just because they are American, Belgian etc etc... I mean they are just proud of what their country has produced and are proud to say that this tennis player has come from their country.

GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:26 PM
Fed-Cup ... I am interested, but I don't really cheer for Germany.

Davis-Cup ... I dislike both Kiefer and Haas, so I cheer against Germany. :)

wave
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:37 PM
Hi treufreund,

no I was never at "Man spricht Deutsch", but I think that in this international forum we should write in English (at least as good as I can). It is more polite...
But you are forgiven for your German... What I can't forgive you is not knowing that Stuttgart is situated between vineyards. We have the famous "Trollinger" and other Wuerttemberger vines. Yet I have to admit that I prefer Chianti and Californian vine...
The other thing is whether Stuttgart is a city (Grossstadt) or not. Most people would say no, but we have about 500.000 inhabitants.
So my suggestion would be that you and your friend first should try the Wuerttemberger vine, decide if it IS vine and then find out about working places at vineyards nearby (we certainly have a university).
Good luck to both of you, wave.

:wavey:

treufreund
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:48 PM
Sorry wavey but I don't feel that it's impolite to speak in an another language at all since I was addressing only you. people in here write in all kinds of languages and in all the threads. The board is on the INTERNET which belongs to the world. Actually I was very surprised at what you wrote. But anyways no hard feelings . :D

RAA
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:48 PM
I don't consciously root for American's because I'm an American. But I think it probably does influence me in some way. Right now, it just so happens that a lot of my favorites are Americans, but I really like Kim Clijsters and Justine Henin. And I was a big fan of Steffi Graf and Martina N.

I do think that what little TV coverage we in the US get of tennis focusses on American players so that I am more likely to know about them and see them play more often than players of other nationalities. This is especially true of younger up and coming players. Its very hard to learn about these younger players from other counties - in the US there is just not much coverage of juniors.

I'm always surprised when I reporters write: "an All-american final" or "either way, we'll have an american in a final". I don't think that Jen cap, the Williams sisters, Lindsay and Monica view themselves as all part of one big happy american family! I just don't think of tennis in terms of how many Americans are in the semis or finals - I care for good tennis and that my favorites play well. I love it because its an international sport. of course during Fed Cup and the Olympics, patriotic loyalty takes over.

I think that most people feel some sort of emotional attachment to their favorite players, so its hard to assess whether that emotional connection or attachment is "valid" or not.
Ruth in philly pa usa

Zamboni
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:57 PM
I think it's a reason to follow players, but not the only reason why you like players. Just think about the fact that you don't like all the players from your own country as much. I follow Miriam Oremans, and I'm happy if she wins, but I'm not a fan of her. I am a fan of Amanda Hopmans though.

veryborednow
Apr 2nd, 2002, 04:58 PM
Sorry, in my answer I read "important" reason, instead of "valid".

Can be valid, but I just don't think it's important. As I said it's an individual sport - not like the world cup where of course I will support my nation Go ENGLAND!! I would never dream of supporting USA in the World Cup, in fact I hope they lose earlier than we do, but in tennis, Jen (American -->bet u didn't know that) is the one I cheer for.

Come-on-kim
Apr 2nd, 2002, 06:42 PM
My favourite player is Kim not because she's Belgian, because I like her game,... I'm belgian but Justine is not in my TOP-3 favourite player. But I cheer for her when she plays because she's belgian.

We can say that if there's a Kim vs Justine match, I'll cheer for Kim

A Jelena vs Justine match (I'll cheer for Jelena because she's my second favourite)

A Martina vs Justine match (I'll cheer for Martina because she's my third favourite)

A Kim vs ... always for Kim

A Justine vs all other players except Jelena, Kim, Martina I'll cheer for Justine.

And finaly if it's a Justine or Kim vs .... in Fed Cup, I'll cheer for Justine or Kim. In fact I'll cheer for Belgium!!!

ot1962
Apr 2nd, 2002, 06:42 PM
I think i need help here:rolleyes:

Could someone give me the list of VALID reasons why i SHOULD like a player. Lest i break the TRUE TENNIS FAN code!

Honestly the problem is not the reasons why someone likes a player, but why someone does not like a certain player. Even then it's not a problem if you are not offending other people.
So the key is to do whatever you want without offending other people. Of course one could choose to offend others but you should be ready to face their response. I am sure that is the reason we have moderators, to decide on what generally accepted for decency.

Sean
Apr 2nd, 2002, 06:59 PM
No.

Let me count all the Portugeuse players in the top 100...

Let me count all the Brits in the top 100...
Dont get me stated on twat Henman

Hmm...Dosent seem to be too many.

I cheer my my coutries in every other sport though.
Esp football!

Beige
Apr 2nd, 2002, 07:36 PM
Yes it is a valid reason. One of many valid reasons to like any player.

moon
Apr 2nd, 2002, 09:08 PM
completely agree with everything Bea and Poe had to say.:wavey:

who's to say really what is valid and what is not?

personally there are some instances where I cheer for players because of their nationality (Fed Cup). But other than that, I don't give a crap where the player is from, it just matters whether I like them/their game or not.

GoDominiqu
Apr 2nd, 2002, 10:20 PM
I am sorry. The word 'valid' was not a very good choice because it was too simplifying. Please let me try it again. :)

Poe is right: Watching tennis IS for entertaining. So if you watch tennis and you ARE entertained then it's a good thing.

The question is: Is just watching a match entertaining enough for you ? Or do you need some other factors, like rooting for one of the players because of his nationality, to increase the entertainment level ?

When you compare tennis with a team-sport, like soccer: Tennis is an individual sport. So it's definitely possible to favour a player because of game-style and oncourt-personality.
Soccer is a team-sport, many different individuals. And it's tougher to recognise different game-styles between the teams. So, without non-sport-reasons, which reasons are left to decide which team is your favourite ? Not many. You would really have to watch it just for the fun of the game.

But how many soccer-fans watch a game without having a favourite ? Most are rooting for their home team.

What do you think ? Are many sports not entertaining enough by themselves ?

theheninfan
Apr 2nd, 2002, 10:27 PM
I am american, but I go for Justine.

She is my absolute fav!:bounce:

Gonzo Hates Me!
Apr 2nd, 2002, 10:35 PM
I think nationality is the most beautiful reason in the world for support!!! And I am the most un-patriotic person in the world, to an extent where if I revealed some things I've said and joked about, you all would disgust me! But patriotism in sports, it's just so great! You can't be as passionate and crazy and emotional as a patriotic fan! Especially if you are not from US, say Brazil, when you have one player who's just king of the world, Guga duh, and he has paved the way for Brazilian tennis. OF COURSE you are going to be patriotic. If I were from Brazil, or Switzerland with Martina and Roger, or Belgium with their sudden tennis rennaissance, or Belarus, I can't believe I would root mainly for someone from another country because it's not everyday such players come out unlike the USA when you have soooooo many players to choose from, and that's why I have chosen none of them! LOL! Anyway, that's just me!! I don't care if you're Brazilian and you want to kill Guga! Congrats, want a cracker? All that up there is just my perspective. You don't have to agree with it.

Come World Cup which is the perfect example, why would a Brit not root for England or an Argie not root for Argentina. If your country wins, it's just extra special. Why?! It just is. It's an age old ritual to love your country and be proud of where you're from. That's why when I asked that question, "Who do you want to win the World Cup?" so many Belges said Belgium. And no offense, but they definitely won't win and someone said that. But why would a Belge want anyone else to win!

OKAY! I TALK SO MUCH!!

angele87
Apr 2nd, 2002, 10:51 PM
Well I'm from Canada and honestly the only good player we have is Daniel Nestor who is arguably part of the best doubles team in the world and whenever I see that he is playing I want him to win. Because I like his game?? Not really... we don't get much doubles coverage here but because he is Canadian. My fave player is Kim and when she is playing I always want her to win but when somebody from Canada is playing against anybody except Kim, I want them to win! I don't think there is anything wrong with being Patriotic in tennis or any other sport however if there is a player who's personality I don't like, the fact that he or she might be Canadian is not enough to make me like that person. However I'm always extremely happy when somebody from Canada wins or does well... and like somebody said, at the Olympics most people cheer for their country, even in individual sports so there's nothing wrong with doing the same in tennis!!

TS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:09 AM
Gosh, some people are so picky here ;) lol

Well, yes and no.

I love Eleni. The fact that she is Greek is a bonus ;)

Im a Greek/Aussie and I love the Australian girls. I go for them all, even if most will never make it big. Im patriotic so I will go cheer for them. Most of my faves come from all over the world (Croatia, Argentina etc) but Im also very loyal to the players from my own country. I think it's great reason to support a player.

tennischick
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:15 AM
it probably shouldn't be but it probably is for most tennis fans. until you end up with two players from the same country that u r from in the finals and then everything goes haywire...

i just love great tennis regardless of who is playing it...

Rocketta
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:29 AM
Yeah, I think people tend to like people from their own country. You like what is familiar to you. Being from a small town, I know the feeling when one of your own goes out in the world and competes and gets some success. You feel real proud because in some ways it feels like a reflection on you. So I can imagine what Belgium fans of the Belgium girls feel for them. I wouldn't want it to be any other way! I think that is the feeling you get when someone from you're country is successful. PRIDE Its such a wonderful feeling. :)

herodoto
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:31 AM
for me is totally normal to cheer for your countryman, but i understand depends the country, in some countries as the latinamerican countries is almost impossible not to do it, the pride is too big. i don't know how is in whole the world, but i remember the croatians cheering for ivanisevic at wimbledon and the swedish doing the same with their players at aus2002. i think you can not avoid it at all

Jay
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:31 AM
I think it's quite natural that most people look to support a fellow countryman/woman who participates in a world wide sport like tennis, boxing, golf, or whatever. After all that person is acting as representative of that country and this can bring out the same feelings that people have when following say their national football team.

That said, I've never really been that keen on British tennis players and to be honest, offer me the choice between England (or Trinidad, I have dual nationality) winning the World Cup or Chelsea beating say Belper Town in a pre-season friendly, I'll go for Chelsea 1 Belper Town 0 anyday :p

disposablehero
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:33 AM
I suppose it is, but it would be an extremely low priority for me. Of course, there is also the factor that a player is more likely to recieve TV time and press coverage in her home country. In the early 90's, I certainly saw a lot of Helen Kelesi.

tennischick
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:17 AM
tsk!!! tsk!!!!! i'll tell Dwight and Brian you said that!!! :) :eek: :p

Originally posted by Jay
... offer me the choice between England (or Trinidad, I have dual nationality) winning the World Cup or Chelsea beating say Belper Town in a pre-season friendly, I'll go for Chelsea 1 Belper Town 0 anyday :p

Experimentee
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:20 AM
I tend not to like the australian players coz they're all over the tv coverage here, all you hear about on the media is the australian players...i find myself hoping hewitt will lose early so they can show some good women's matches instead of showing every round that hes in.
I dont think nationality is a valid reason anyway, it has nothing to do with their personality or the way they play. Everyone here tends to support that aussie players and they can cite no other reason other than the fact that they're australian....that annoys me somewhat. I just dont like people being biased like that.

Doris Loeffel
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:39 AM
O.K.

O.K.


I confess it!!


I mainly support players from my country!! (You're allowed to call me chauvi ;) ) Well they need at least one person who supports them ;) Glad that most of them had a great season and were able to regenerate even more fans. Couse they deserve it!!

Soo goooo Pat, Amanda, Chanda


ähhhh I mean goooo Romina, Myriam, Daniela, Roman, Yves, George, Ivo, Marie-Gaïane, Emmanuelle, Marc, Michel, Patty, Roger, Martina and all the others

jomar
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:58 AM
It's but normal to support your own.:angel: ...but if you truly enjoy tennis then nationality wouldn't be "wall" in order to appreciate others.:)

saby
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:04 AM
I don't care about nationality, I'm happy when the french fed cup or davis cup team win, I root for france not for the players.

I like others players from others countries and I don't like some french players, my fav is Pierce and I can't stand Mauresmo (only for the way she play).




:angel: :angel: :angel:

spyro
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:27 AM
The main reason for me to support a Tennis Player is That players come from my Country.

But i like to support Lindsay Davenport too, she's my favorite international player.

Jakeev
Apr 3rd, 2002, 08:34 AM
Well I think its natural for a people to root for their nations players in any sport......for the most part it great for patritism and national spirit so yeah I think it is a valid reason for liking a player or sports team.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:06 AM
Answering rephrased question:

Watching a match is entertaining enough. Having some of the players be one's compatriots is an added incentive but not crucial to loving tennis.

Gandalf
Apr 3rd, 2002, 12:20 PM
I don't care about nationality at all, but I don't mind if others do. Tennis is an individual sport, so I don't think I should necessarily root for the players from my country, but for the players whose style I like watching.

In the Atp, I like Ferrero and Costa, but I find most of the other Spanish players boring to death.

earthcrystal
Apr 3rd, 2002, 12:29 PM
Nationality is not a factor in my choice of fave. As a rule, I detest nationalism, and I wish more people would subscribe to the idea of being a "global citizen" without regard for arbitrary lines on a map.

I adored Monica before she became an American, (I only cheer for the American Fed Cup team because Monica is on it) and the rest of my faves are from elsewhere. :)

brickhousesupporter
Apr 3rd, 2002, 12:30 PM
Nationality is as good a reason as any other.

veryborednow
Apr 3rd, 2002, 01:15 PM
I think those criticising the "valid" part of the question, really have to appreciate that for most people in this board English is not their first language and so may get the wording slightly wrong.

It doesn't take too much effort in understanding what the questions was asking for. Don't jump down peoples throats so easily.

griffin
Apr 3rd, 2002, 01:26 PM
Everything Sonja, Poe and Gallofa said.

We all have our reasons to appreciate some players more than others, and I think it's the height of arrogance to assume your reasons are superior to someone else's, and to assume that your reasons make you a more rational/less biased fan than someone else.

We've certainly seen enough people who like their faves because of the kind of tennis they play (shot makers, Big Babes, retrievers...) be ignorant and rude about players with a different style to know that being into someone's "tennis" doesn't make you a better fan.

and I know GoD may not have meant "valid" but some people on this board do seem to feel that way, and that's what I'm responding to

Pureracket
Apr 3rd, 2002, 01:33 PM
treu,
Now if I guy player has a cute body, face or package or buns I *might* , might root for him but they all wear such baggy ass clothing that it usually doesn't matter. Hehe. :o Besides tennis players tend to be to skinny for me. I like muscles not the lean look.

Do you like Arnaud Clement?

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 01:42 PM
As a rule, it is not typical for North American people ( especially for Americans ), while in other parts of the world people always support players from their own country. Probably because North Americans mostly are not interested in major international sports such as primarily football. Other big World Championships, like swimming, track and field, rugby, cricket, figure skating, winter sports have a huge coverage in the world, but not in the US. Another thing - Davis Cup and Fed Cup. USA is about the only major tennis power whose greatest players do not make themselves available on regular basis,a dn where people are not really interested in those events. Therefore, sports in the USA are somewhat less influenced by nationalism ( apart from Olympics, of course ). And it does take a good habit to international sports to consider tennis as a sport where nationality would be of any importance. I.e., on Grand Slams you will always see Australian, Swedish, German, Brazilian, Russian, British flags waved. But I can't remember seeing US flag waved at , say AO or US Open.

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 01:49 PM
It's completely fine. Pretty much any reson to root FOR people. I became a fan of Venus and Serena because they are African Americans who can really play. I'm sure Anna Smashnova has some fans for no other reason than she's Jewish. Rita Grande has some fans because she's Italian. It's all good.

What's objectionable ishating and denigrating players because of race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, height etc.

vw43
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:27 PM
A fan should be able to support whomever they choose to support and for whatever reason.

:)

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 02:55 PM
It's completely fine. Pretty much any reson to root FOR people. I became a fan of Venus and Serena because they are African Americans who can really play. I'm sure Anna Smashnova has some fans for no other reason than she's Jewish. Rita Grande has some fans because she's Italian.

Volcana, you are equaling racial sympathy to national sympathy?
That's bullshit..

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:26 PM
ys - Yes I am COMPLETELY equating racial sympathy with nationist sympathy. Or religious, or sexual. Why you root FOR someone is just your personal reason. If people want to root for players becasue they are White, good for them. But since 95% of the tour is white, that's kind of a waste of time. There's nothing WRONG with it though.

If you root AGAINST someone because of natonality, I have a problem with it.
If you root AGAINST someone because of race, I have a problem with it.
If you root AGAINST someone because of religion, I have a problem with it.

I started following Venus Williams career when she was insingle digits BECAUSE she was a really talented black girl from a really nasty ghetto. I could care less if you don't like it. Until and unless youcan argue I'm AGAINST someone because of their race, you have no case. Zero. Nada.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:34 PM
Volcana def. ys 6-0, 6-0

Jay
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by tennischick
tsk!!! tsk!!!!! i'll tell Dwight and Brian you said that!!! :) :eek: :p



haha :p

although come to think of it, Brian and especially Dwight are hardly in a position to lecture anyone about national loyalty :confused:

Weevee
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:46 PM
I think that to be a fan one must get a vicarious pleasure out of the achievement(s) of a player. The player must have qualities that we can understand, relate to, and identify with.
There must be achieving. We have all tried to excell in some area of activity so we know all about that.
People have completely different life experiences so will make very different choices on whom they will support.
I am far more likely to watch activity in which black people are participating than activities in which they are not. I do not watch hockey, Olympic skating, rowing or any of the whites only (or mainly) sports.
I am happy when Canada wins because my friends are happy and I am in a happy place.
I am happy when Agassi wins because Venus made me a fan of tennis and now I watch for excellence in the sport, for dedication, and for all the qualities that quite apart from tennis I admire in people.
I am a fan of Monica's because I believe that she has dealt with great injustice and survived as a black person I can understand that.

2ace2
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:50 PM
I like of course all the Belgians, but I also like all the Asian players very much...
And then there are some individuals who I like because of their game, personality, behaviour...
eg: Alexandra Stevenson, Elena Dementieva, Meilen Tu, Patty Schnyder...(and the rest is in my signature)

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 03:51 PM
Demagogy, Volcana.. Usual trashtalking when one tries to avoid answering what was really asked.. You have a strange manner of soemtimes writing too much of obvious things and thus saying too little.

"I hate racists, I hate nationalists, I hate sexists, I hate *ists, blah-blah-blah.."

Who cares about your "againsts"? Rooting "against" has always been considered bad manners regardless of reason.. So we are NOT talking on rooting against here.

If you root FOR someone because of natonality, I don't have much of a problem with it. I don't say it is good, but for as long as Earth is divided into different countries, people speak different languages, and far as long as almost every sport has internationally-based competitions where a nation, not a person, wins as a result, it is OK, and thinking otherwise would be demagogic idealism. Like, "I would wish that current transportation was not linked to burning carbohydrates and polluting athmosphere". So what? Lets stop using cars.. For as long as nations are divided by geographic and political borders, rooting FOR someone because of nationality is OK.


If you root FOR someone because of race, I have a problem with it. Because that would be racism.

If you root FOR someone because of religion, I don't have a problem with it simply because it is somewhat incomprehensible for me - linking religion and sports would constitute quite serious difference between my mind and the other person's mind. I am not qualified to judge someone who is so much different.

griffin
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:13 PM
Cheering for someone based on nationality could just as easily be a matter of national chauvanism and xenophobia as pride or other positive motives.

I think you're the one making a false supposition (that one can't/shouldn't equate national pride and racial pride) and relying on demagogery, not Volcana

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by ys
If you root FOR someone because of race, I have a problem with it. Because that would be racism.

With over 95% of the players being white, of course, you couldn't be accused of being "racist". :rolleyes: I've seen the "I'm white but I don't root for players because they're white" claim on tennis boards for 5 years now and I find it to be one of the most Caucasian comments I've ever heard!! ys, I would explain to you the short-sightedness of your charge but evidentally it would NOT be worth my time. :rolleyes:

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:32 PM
ys - If rooting for players because I share skin color is makes me a racist, fine. I'm not afraid of the word or the label, as long as we're both clear as to why you say it. You're not saying I hate or dislike anybody. You just object to me LIKING people, at least in part, becasue we share a biologically trivial physical characteristic, skin color.

I don't have a problem with that. you're wrong about me being bigoted, but that's okay.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by earthcrystal
Nationality is not a factor in my choice of fave. As a rule, I detest nationalism, and I wish more people would subscribe to the idea of being a "global citizen" without regard for arbitrary lines on a map.


Actually that are my thoughts ! It's unrealistic and utopic, but I would definitely prefer that. I don't even say that I am free of nationality-related prejudice, but I wish I was and the same for everyone else.

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:40 PM
ys - If rooting for players because I share skin color is makes me a racist, fine. I'm not afraid of the word or the label, as long as we're both clear as to why you say it. You're not saying I hate or dislike anybody. You just object to me LIKING people, at least in part, becasue we share a biologically trivial physical characteristic, skin color.

Of course, it makes you a racist. As much as it would make a racist someone who, for instance would prefer to work with people with whom one "shares a biologically trivial physical characteristic, skin color." Or would prefer to have those sharing as employees, students.. No difference. Same mindset.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by ys


Of course, it makes you a racist. As much as it would make a racist someone who, for instance would prefer to work with people with whom one "shares a biologically trivial physical characteristic, skin color." Or would prefer to have those sharing as employees, students.. No difference. Same mindset.

You just don't get it, ys. There are Caucasians who can comprehend racial pride; you are just NOT one of them. Not a crime. It's just too bad.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 04:58 PM
'Racial pride' is one of the worst expressions I know. :(
Similar feelings have been leading to some 'not so nice accidents' in my home country, as you might know.

IMO, it's totally offending and inappropriate.

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:01 PM
There are Caucasians who can comprehend racial pride; you are just NOT one of them. Not a crime. It's just too bad.

No, I can understand that. Racial pride is a low feeling growing mostly from inferiority complex. Not a crime. But there is nothing good about it.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:05 PM
Okay. How about "ethnic pride"? It's difficult to convey to Caucasians SOMETIMES why PEOPLE OF COLOR feel a sense of pride when one of their own succeeds at something that has ALWAYS been WHITE-DOMINATED. No matter how many examples I give there will ALWAYS be a Caucasian who just does NOT grasp the concept.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:08 PM
Can anone please explain to me what's the origin of the word 'caucasian' is ? :confused:

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:11 PM
And 'ethnic pride' isn't better at all ! Isn't that exactly what leads to the terror in Israel ?

IMO you can't be pride on ANYTHING you are born in or with.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:17 PM
*Sigh*

It's really a people of color thing that SOME of you CANNOT understand.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:19 PM
No, I admit I don't understand it. That's normal because I don't understand concepts which doesn't make any sense.

veryborednow
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:20 PM
ah! we're onto racism ... dammit i lost my bet!

I thought it would take 3 pages ....

*cries*

:sad:

disposablehero
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by GoDominique
Can anone please explain to me what's the origin of the word 'caucasian' is ? :confused:

Supposedly Caucasian people first appeared in the Caucasus Mountains and spread outward from there.

Come-on-kim
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Mrs_Guga
I think nationality is the most beautiful reason in the world for support!!! And I am the most un-patriotic person in the world, to an extent where if I revealed some things I've said and joked about, you all would disgust me! But patriotism in sports, it's just so great! You can't be as passionate and crazy and emotional as a patriotic fan! Especially if you are not from US, say Brazil, when you have one player who's just king of the world, Guga duh, and he has paved the way for Brazilian tennis. OF COURSE you are going to be patriotic. If I were from Brazil, or Switzerland with Martina and Roger, or Belgium with their sudden tennis rennaissance, or Belarus, I can't believe I would root mainly for someone from another country because it's not everyday such players come out unlike the USA when you have soooooo many players to choose from, and that's why I have chosen none of them! LOL! Anyway, that's just me!! I don't care if you're Brazilian and you want to kill Guga! Congrats, want a cracker? All that up there is just my perspective. You don't have to agree with it.

Come World Cup which is the perfect example, why would a Brit not root for England or an Argie not root for Argentina. If your country wins, it's just extra special. Why?! It just is. It's an age old ritual to love your country and be proud of where you're from. That's why when I asked that question, "Who do you want to win the World Cup?" so many Belges said Belgium. And no offense, but they definitely won't win and someone said that. But why would a Belge want anyone else to win!

OKAY! I TALK SO MUCH!!

Why do you think Belgian can't win???? LOL

HAIL-VENUS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:27 PM
I agree with Volcano and Beige. It is understandably difficult for someone NOT of our background and our countries historical racially segregated experiences to be able to relate to "racial pride" or "ethnic pride". It is very important for me to be able to look out at the world and see that African Americans are finally proving many unfounded racial beliefs to be wrong. As far as tennis is concerned, it was once thought that Blacks weren't good enough to play the sport because of our racial, social, and economical inferiorities. So, to finally see, not one, but two African American women having such a great chance of success in the sport SHOULD be an acceptable and understandable reason for them to have a large amount of fans of their race.

This can be said for anybody else who share a familiar upbringing and culture with other players on the tour. To me, there's absolutely nothing wrong with appreciation by identification. ys, I think you are confused about racism. Admiration and fondness for someone who shares you own racial identity is not the same as having hatefulness for someone who is not of their own race. Nobody here said that they dislike or wish misfortune upon any of the other players because they have different cultures. That's the difference between "racial pride" and "racial prejudice".

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by GoDominique
No, I admit I don't understand it. That's normal because I don't understand concepts which doesn't make any sense.

You DON'T understand because you are ACCUSTOMED to seeing players that more or less look like you (read: have your complexion, etc). GD, do you understand, for example, why Asian tennis fans would root for Ai Sugiyama? Sure they may like Martina Hingis but they share some type of common experience with Ai that they do NOT with Hingis. There's an internal feeling pride they have for Sugiyama that the do NOT have with Hingis. It does NOT mean Sugiyama is btter than Hingis. It just means that the emotions are different in their fondness for both players.

Can you understand that?

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:32 PM
Thanks, disposablehero.

Okay, to all who agree with Volcana's, Beige's HAIL_VENUS' view:

How do you view people from a different 'ethnic background as yours' ?

If you put emphasis on that attribute, then there must also be a difference in treating people.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:33 PM
Please see Hail-Venus' eloquent reply.

ys
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:36 PM
Exactly, GoDominique.. If you are viewing people differently based on their "ethnic background", you are going to treat them different, intentionally or not. And that is nothing but old plain racism.

Racial pride, racial prejudice.. I thought, one united "human race" is the idea.. Anyways, I don't fell much of "racial pride" even about that race.. Pride should be considered a sin.. Or, is it a sin?

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:39 PM
Beige: No, I don't understand that because what you said has NOTHING to do with race. It may apply to people of the same country or area.

So you are from Brooklyn. And you say that you have an 'internal feeling pride' for ALL black people because of 'some type of common experience' ? Even if they live on a different continent ?

Which experience do you share with those people then ?

African African
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:45 PM
i am from Zimbabwe and root for Cara Black. (und es ist in Ordnung so!)

she gives hope to a lot of young local girls who aspire to be professional tennis players that they can also compete on the international scene. supporting her is a way of promoting tennis in Zimbabwe.

i have other personal reasons why i support her but i wont mention them because i feel that supporting her because she is from the same country with is a valid reason own its own.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

i also like the Williams sisters because they act as role models to our tennis aspiring young girls. by virtue of their playing and winning they prove that tennis is also a game for blacks in a better way.

i dropped tennis at 12 because i didnt know any black player who was involved in that sport. i remember telling my parents that i didnt have the energy to fight for acceptance in a white world, i can do other sports. (Arthur Ashe or Althea Gibson are not known in this part of the world.)
__________________________________________________ _________________________

HAIL-VENUS
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:56 PM
ys, you have got to be kidding yourself. You are so one dimensional and closed minded. You never try to see anyone else's point of view. If you care so much about the "human race", then why can't you see that on this Earth, people of different racial and religious backgrounds have been subject to many hurtful and misleading biases, and when we do have the chance to achieve something, it's very important for us. Since you're so into humanity, why can't you understand this human emotion?

GoDominque, I can honestly say that coming from a small southern town in America, and seeing so many things that could have easily made me feel a sense of distrust and dislike for people who are racially different from me, I tend to learn more and more about EACH human being that I come in contact with by viewing them as an individual. I have a lot of empathy for people because I know how I feel when I'm judged simply by things that others like me have done, or judged by my appearance or whatever, and I will NEVER treat any other human in such a manner. All I'm saying is that I really like Venus and Serena because they came from a place that I can identify with. There are other African Americans on the tour, yet, I'm not as fond of them as I am of V&S. I came from a similar situation that they did, and to see them succeding is a very empowering and special thing for me too. I don't dislike any of the other women on tour, and I respect everyone who respects me. I'll treat you the same as I treat myself, unless you do something to make me feel differently about you, never because of where you come from or what you look like.

deftman
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:58 PM
NO It's not!!!!
As a rule, I detest nationalism, and I wish more people would subscribe to the idea of being a "global citizen" without regard for arbitrary lines on a map.

God Bless U EC :angel: :angel:
Finally someone who agrees with me!
I think national , racial , or religional sympathy is a definetily a form of chauvinism.
Mind U, I'm not trying to put up and "image",of being a psuedo-intellectual ,who believes in Utopia. Maybe I do. But the fact IMO is ,it is pretty stupid to cheer to people ,simply because they're born in your country ,whatever a "country" means.
The reason why we cheer players from our country is because we keep saying we're proud of our great country and constantly salute our flags,and sing the anthem , and try and bring honour to our country ,et al ,and hence we pretty blindly support the players from our country ,even if you'd have hated them if they werent from your country.Have any of you analysed why you do so??What's the significance of supporting a person from your own country?
To those guys who're justifying this by saying that leave the people with what they want to do ,gimme a break !!
Sure we have to leave the people with what they want to do,as we cant force our opinions on anyone. But some topics are universal and subjectivity simply does not apply to them .Whether it's killing people , hurting people ,whatever , and this is one of those issues! Many people blindly support people from other countries ,just because the people around them do so.
And in my opinion ,using hard wisdom to support these actions is simply NOT the right way to go about it!!

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:00 PM
So you are from Brooklyn. And you say that you have an 'internal feeling pride' for ALL black people because of 'some type of common experience' ? Even if they live on a different continent ?

Which experience do you share with those people then ?

GoDominque, what is the difference between a Black person cheering for a Black player and an Asian person cheering for an Asian player???!! It's the SAME, no matter which way you look at it AND you're in DENIAL if you think otherwise.

It's interesting because you are not the only WHITE tennis fan to make this distinction:

When Blacks cheer for Venus & Serena, it's about RACE.

When Asians, cheer for Ai & Meilen, it's about NATIONALITY.

GoDomininque, have you EVER asked an Asian tennis fan IF they root for Asian players solely or primarily because they are Asian? You will be surprised by their answer.

The feeling I share with other people of color in terms of MAINSTREAM SOCIETY is that it is in OUR history that we have NOT always had the advantages that WHITE people have had. No matter how talented and ambitious we were, we ran into obstacles that many whites did NOT. And most of the times, it was the white people putting up these barriers. That is the connection I feel, GD.

African African
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:04 PM
i like certain people and players for no particular reason. i even told someone, that if i knew why i like her probably i would stop liking her.......

liking for no reason except just liking - is this the most valid reason???

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:20 PM
HAIL-VENUS, I lile your reply very much. You can relate to Venus and Serena in a PERSONAL way which goes beyond race. It's race-related, but not just race, and I respect that.

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:24 PM
That's what I thought, GoDominque. Thanks for the proof. :D

Volcana
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:35 PM
GoDominique - You ask "How do you view people from a different 'ethnic background as yours' ?"

Answer: Individually.

I'm married to someone from a different ethnic background. There were people of at least four racial, four religious and about a dozen ethnic backgrounds at the ceremony. We have friends and relatives from a lot of different backgrounds. And yeah, we have our disagreements over race, sexuality, religion, et al. That's impossible to avoid in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-gender-oriented extended family. We deal with it.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:39 PM
Beige: You have mis-interpreted my post and that's probably my fault.

My comment 'what you said has NOTHING to do with race' was not referring to your example with Asian players .(I actually agree with that, it IS the same. If, let's say, people from Indonesia, cheer for players of Japan just because they are BOTH Asian, then I can't understand that as well.)
My comment was instead referring to 'feeling pride' and 'common experience'.
My problem with that is that's it'simplifying, generalizing. It's a scheme.
Of course you are right, black people have had oppression by whites which is horrible and a complete disgrace.
But to put that 'scheme' on today's people is not good IMO.
After all we are all individuals. Everyone should be treated equally, black or white or whatever.
You probably demand white people to treat black people in the same way as whites.
If I said 'I am proud of all the white tennis-players' wouldn't you think that this is unpolite towards black players ?

paul_masterton
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:52 PM
YES! Of course it is.

It is just as valid as liking tehm as a person, liking tehir style, liking their hair, whatever.

Liking beacsue of nationality isnt the ONLY reason, but its a perfectly good one.

I liek teh British girls, mostly because they are British.

I dont like them ALL, i only follow say about 40% of them.

But originally i was drawn to them bhy teh fact that thy were british.

When i first saw tennsi on tv it was wimbledon adn it came up with Lucie Ahl (GBR) bt B Swartz (AUT) 63 60.

Oh a british player? i never knew we had any.

So i loked ehr up and saw her more, sent her an e-mail and really liked her. Now i liek her beacsue shes my friend.

But i was originanly drawn by nationality.

I dont think you can say to some1: "u r a fool. u only support her beacsue shes form ur country."

i would reply: "ur a fool for suporting venus only beacsue shes black adn so r u."

That is no dfferent to suporting some1 based on natioanlity.


i am british and prou of that fact. I like my gbtennis grils beacsue of what they do for sport ehre in teh counrty, i look up to them, believe in them.

I liek Asa, Lidsay, Seles, Sfar, Iroda and others for various reasons all of which are valid.

Suport on natioality is valid. It is no less valid than liking a players style.

Paul :D

paul_masterton
Apr 3rd, 2002, 06:57 PM
oops i frogot something.

U cant like a player on nationality alone i dont think. In teh same way as u cant like a player based on style alone or race alone.

It may eb the thing that 1st attracts u to that player, but wont be enoug to sustain ur support, otherwsie ud lie every1 who plays like that.

I was drawn to the brist ebacsue they r british. then i discoevered i dont like them ALL. So i dont support them ALL.

Paul :D

Beige
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by GoDominique
Beig: You have mis-interpreted my post and that's probably my fault.

My comment 'what you said has NOTHING to do with race' was not referring to your example with Asian players .(I actually agree with that, it IS the same. If, let's say, people from Indonesia, cheer for players of Japan just because they are BOTH Asian, then I can't understand that as well.)
My comment was instead referring to 'feeling pride' and 'common experience'.
My problem with that is that's it'simplifying, generalizing. It's a scheme.
Of course you are right, black people have had oppression by whites which is horrible and a complete disgrace.
But to put that 'scheme' on today's people is not good IMO.
After all we are all individuals. Everyone should be treated equally, black or white or whatever.
You probably demand white people to treat black people in the same way as whites.
If I said 'I am proud of all the white tennis-players' wouldn't you think that this is unpolite towards black players ?

If you said 'I am proud of all the white tennis-players' truthfully speaking, I would NOT be upset because I'd know you're either saying it to...

1. make a point about race and tennis
2. attempting to goad WTAworld members of color
OR
3. you belong to the KKK. ;)

Anyway, I'm glad you elaborated because I'm now relieved to know you understood (and agreed with) my point about Asian tennis fans.

GoDominique, I don't believe in generalizations nor do I hold TODAY'S generation responsible for the "sins" of their ancestors BUT there are times when you do have to bring up the past AND there times the past has no bearing.

FYI: I may becoming across like some militant person of color who sees white people as the devil but I'm not. If I was, I wouldn't be on this board, among other things.

Peace.

GoDominiqu
Apr 3rd, 2002, 07:37 PM
Well, then everything is fine for me. :) Sometimes you just have to discuss to understand the other person's point of view completely. We may still disagree but I respect your opinion and it's nice that we can talk about such a difficult topic without getting offensive.

Although this was quite off-topic ... ;)

Pureracket
Apr 3rd, 2002, 09:21 PM
GoDominique, Beige, and HailVenus,
Thanks for the relatively civil dialogue. I learned quite a bit in the exchange.

GoDominique,
You may look at the history of your country when it was divided to find an example of racial pride when it goes wrong. For a good example, look at the pandemonium that Vonetta Flowers caused in the Winter Olympics among many African Americans.

LucasArg
Apr 4th, 2002, 12:44 AM
I don't know if nationality is a reason to like a player, but I support all my country players. I love my country and I love my flag:hearts:

VAMOS ARGENTINA:bounce:

tennischick
Apr 4th, 2002, 01:08 AM
too true!!! i wish the Caribbean had more tennis players to root for. i'd support them in a heartbeat. folks in developed countries enjoy such a bounty of talent to choose from that they can actually argue over issues like these!


Originally posted by Jay
haha :p although come to think of it, Brian and especially Dwight are hardly in a position to lecture anyone about national loyalty :confused:

Beige
Apr 4th, 2002, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by GoDominique
Well, then everything is fine for me. :) Sometimes you just have to discuss to understand the other person's point of view completely. We may still disagree but I respect your opinion and it's nice that we can talk about such a difficult topic without getting offensive.

Although this was quite off-topic ... ;)

Amen! :)