PDA

View Full Version : Why can't Williams fans...?


Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 08:59 PM
Just be happy.

Serena just won a big tournament, beating # 1, 2, and 3, she won another tournament 3 weeks ago and those are only the second and third tournaments she plays, and she retired injured in the first.

Venus got to # 1, won two tournaments, has won 4 GSs in two years.

I mean, if Justine had just won KB the way Serena did, I wouldn't have been caring about what a commentator said, or if she is # 7 instead of # 9, or if the crowd booed her, I would have been just happy, enjoying the moment.

But no, for some (notice the bold some) Williams fans any chance is good to moan, they will never be happy, no matter what.

It does get tiresome some times.

veryborednow
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:05 PM
because they're making a point...

... but once I work out what it is, I'll get back to you

AjdeNate!
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:08 PM
Because they won't rest until we ALL support the Williams' complete domination of the tennis tour.

Dawn Marie
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:09 PM
WHY CANT YOUR ASS QUIT PUTTING ALL WILLIAMS FANS IN ONE GROUP? SINGLE OUT THOSE THAT YOU FEEL AREN'T HAPPY!! CAUSE I CAN SINGLE YOU OUT! FINGON.. sooooooooooooooo

CHECK YOUR OWN BACKYARD CAUSE MARTINA HINGIS HAS BEEN PLAYING SOLID TENNIS AND IT SEEMS THAT A CERTAIN SEGMENT OF HINGIS FANS CAN'T BE HAPPY!!!! (FINGON) INCLUDED JUST CAN'T BE HAPPY!!

SHE LOSES ONE MACTH HASN'T WON A SLAM AND 3 YEARS AND STILL CAN BEAT 98% OF THE TOUR AND (YOU)!!AND OTHERS JUST CAN'T BE HAPPY!!!

AGAIN STOP LUMPNG ALL VENUS AND SERENA FNS TOGETHER CAUSE I AM SOOOOOO HAPPY!! SERENA KICKED HINGIS ASS AND BEAT JENNIFER!

veryborednow
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:10 PM
please, dawn, you can make the point without shouting at us all

AjdeNate!
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:10 PM
....and I think that's the response he was hoping to illicit....

RockSteady
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:11 PM
Intelligent, Dawn!

Fingon: Good question. I have no clue.

irma
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:13 PM
I am happy that Serena won :D

angele87
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:18 PM
Hmm, I kind of agree with Fingon but I'm not really sure because my fave player is Kim and if she had just won a title, I would be happy and not complaining but then again Kim is treated very differently than the Williams... if she was booed when she wins, maybe I'd complain too... I dunno... I think this issue is hard to understand unless you are a Williams fan...

Ryan
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:21 PM
If Dawn wasn't having a spaz attack she owuld notice that Fingon said SOME. How exactly is that grouping all Williams fans together?

But I completely agree with VBN and Seles and Fingon. There is no point to some of the ranting that a select few of the Williams fans do. And I suspect it is because they want everyone to love Venus and Serena.

PS> Notice the 'select few' and 'SOME', before you start acting like Dawn Marie.:rolleyes:

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:21 PM
Fignon, I totally agree with you. After being on the old WTA board and this one, I could never understand why some had that attitude. But then, it all came to the surface. Someone started a thread for everyone to post their age and alot of Williams' fans were between 15- 18 yrs. old so that explained alot of things...

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:24 PM
and Dawn Marie, take chill pill please. Fignon clearly said "SOME" not ALL! You just proved his point. The reason why I dislike the Willliams sisters is not b/c of them, but the attitude of their fans. Get a grip!
Thanks Fignon! No regrets

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:31 PM
Dawn, maybe if you took the time to read before thinking there is a conspiracy you would have notice that not only I said some, I put that in bold and clarified that in parentheses, because I new that SOME Williams fans would moan on that too.

Plus, I would waste my time trying to talk about Martina, because Martina Hingis has not (IMO which is the only that matters to decide who I support and who I don't) been playing good tennis, and I said before I won't be happy with Martina Hingis until she wins a Grand Slam.

Let me spell it out for you.

Situation 1: Martina Hingis wins every single tournament in the tour, beats Venus, Serena, Jennifer, Lindsay, everyone, doesn't drop a set, but doesn't win a GS. Result, I am not happy with her.

Situation 2: She wins a GS and loses in the first round in all the other tournaments, I am happy.

What the hell are you comparing? are you comparing Venus winning four GS in a period that Martina won none? and you say I am never happy?, reading between lines as you like to say, I would say you mean the Williams are so superior that I should be happy with Martina just winning small tournaments. Well, when Martina wins a GS, Pam Shriver can say whatever her ass wants, and the crowd can boo so loud that I can hear it from here in Canada, and she can be ranked # 100, and I would still be happy.

If you don't understand the difference, there is no point on me explaining it.

-Sonic-
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:35 PM
you expect me to read all that? ;)

if u think williams fans should be happy with their players, maybe u shouldn't be so harsh on martina, she beats 9995 out of the top 10000 players all the time, and has sporadic success with the other 5. thats not bad at all.

Weevee
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:37 PM
Shane
I don't think you want to repeat that! I don't think it is intelligent to dislike two people because of what strangers to them and strangers to you say from their anonymity and their emotion.
Please don't embarrass yourself.

RockSteady
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:39 PM
Well, when Martina wins a GS, Pam Shriver can say whatever her ass wants, and the crowd can boo so loud that I can hear it from here in Canada, and she can be ranked # 100, and I would still be happy.

LOL! So true, this had me cracking up. I agree completely. Actually, I HOPE the crowd boos her when she wins her next GS title, and I hope Pam Shriver is bitter, because that will make everything the sweeter. :)

Dawn Marie
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:42 PM
I DONT GIVE A FLYING PUCK IF YOU SAID (SOME). I CAN READ. FINGON YOU GAVE UP ON HINGIS(YOU'RE NOT HAPPY) WITH HER TENNIS. JUSTINE IS NOW YOUR FAVORITE DUE TO (YOU) BEING UNHAPPY, SO THIS POST IMHO IS SO FULL OF SHIT COMING FROM YOU!

SHOUTING SO I KNOW YOU ALL (WILL READ) MY REPLY.. GOOD!! AND I AM OUT.

FINGON YOUR JUST TRYING TO START A WILLIAMS HATE TOPIC BECAUSE SOME FOLKS ARE BRAGGING ON SERENA. AND SERENA DESTROYED HINGIS. IMHO your just peeved that WER'E HAPPY with our favorites at the moment. SORRY, BUT I DON'T SEE MANY FANS OF TENNIS GETTING UNHAPPY WHEN THEIR FAVORITES WIN A TOURNEY. YOU THOUGH ARE THE EXCEPTION IMHO CAUSE HINGIS COULD WIN INDIAN WELLS AND YOU STILL WOULDN'T BE HAPPY FOR HER.

THIS IS A FUNNY ASS POST COMING FROM YOU FINGON. Now I think your a nice guy.. but tis post ticked me off. I stated my feelings and now I shall leave this thread.

RockSteady
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:44 PM
Yes, Dawn. Leave and save face.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Sonic The Hedgehog
you expect me to read all that? ;)

if u think williams fans should be happy with their players, maybe u shouldn't be so harsh on martina, she beats 9995 out of the top 10000 players all the time, and has sporadic success with the other 5. thats not bad at all.

First, my first favourite is Justine not Martina, just for the record.

Second, when Martina wins a tournament that worths it (I am not talking about her wins in the last two years, her last significant win was Chase in 2000), I am happy regardless of what else happens around.

That's a key difference, with Martina I am seeing a player that in my opinion (so, don't bother to argue this point), has the ability to be the best, wins GSs and beat everyone (not just 99.95%) and who chooses to be tentative, to enter the court thinking she is gonna lose, then that doesn't make me happy. I am not unhappy about what the commentators say (although Pam "head in her ass" Shriver does annoy me to hell) or what her ranking is. Martina is a tennis player and I want her to perform up to her potential, which is exactly what the Williams sisters are doing. So, you can't compare being unhappy because a player hasn't won anything worth it in 2 year with being unhappy after your favourite has won a big tournament. In other words, Williams fans couldn't ask for more, what else do they want? the entire world reverencing the sisters? a new religion, Williamsism?

So, to use my unhappiness with Martina to try to put down what I said is just plain silly, because it can't compare. I never complained when Williams fans were unhappy with Serena when she was not winning, and the day Martina wins a GS and you see me complaining, that's the day you can come to make your point, compare what is comparable, not apples with trucks.

angele87
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by RockSteady
Yes, Dawn. Leave and save face.

Bump!

AjdeNate!
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:47 PM
WELL THAT'S a really INTERESTING WAY TO SAY things. I THINK SOME, MOST, A LOT, OF posters around HERE HAVE WAY TOO MUCH HOSTILITY and a TOTALLY UNAPPROACHABLE ATTITUDE AS FAR as the ability TO BE CORRECTED OR EVEN TO be made AWARE OF SIMPLE FACTS. OF COURSE, I can't speak for the MAJORITY OF POSTERS I CAN only speak FOR MYSELF, WHICH IS A LESSON that most posters NEED TO LEARN. AND if you've read this far IN MY POST, MOST OF THIS WAS JUST STUFF THAT I WANT TO express everday AND i AM GLAD i INCLUDED the part about SPEAKING FOR MYSELF. I just wanted to SEE IF THIS WRITING STYLE COMMANDED MORE ATTENTION THAN MORE TRADITIONAL styles of writing. THANKS AND IT WAS AN HONOR JUST TO be NOMINATED.

-Sonic-
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:48 PM
serena is not my fave by quite a while.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
I DONT GIVE A FLYING PUCK IF YOU SAID (SOME). I CAN READ. FINGON YOU GAVE UP ON HINGIS(YOU'RE NOT HAPPY) WITH HER TENNIS. JUSTINE IS NOW YOUR FAVORITE DUE TO (YOU) BEING UNHAPPY, SO THIS POST IMHO IS SO FULL OF SHIT COMING FROM YOU!

Well well, you know me so well, tell me, what do I want to eat tonight?, I should ask you because you seem to know what is in my mind better than I am. I've never turned to Justine for being unhappy, I did because Justine has a style I like and fights, unlike Martina.


SHOUTING SO I KNOW YOU ALL (WILL READ) MY REPLY.. GOOD!! AND I AM OUT.

FINGON YOUR JUST TRYING TO START A WILLIAMS HATE TOPIC BECAUSE SOME FOLKS ARE BRAGGING ON SERENA. AND SERENA DESTROYED HINGIS. IMHO your just peeved that WER'E HAPPY with our favorites at the moment. SORRY, BUT I DON'T SEE MANY FANS OF TENNIS GETTING UNHAPPY WHEN THEIR FAVORITES WIN A TOURNEY. YOU THOUGH ARE THE EXCEPTION IMHO CAUSE HINGIS COULD WIN INDIAN WELLS AND YOU STILL WOULDN'T BE HAPPY FOR HER.

If you wanted to prove my point, you couldn't have done it better.
Honestly Dawn, you are a nice girl, but some times you plain stupid.

Again, you know exactly what I think better than I do, and of course, it's all hate for the Williams, let me tell you, I don't give a rat ass for the Williams and their fans, there are things more important in life that a tennis match, I and give a fuck with Serena kicking Hingis ass, you know what? while Hingis keeps playing like she is, I am happy with someone kicking her ass, maybe that will make her react. , and you are right, if Hingis won Indian Wells I wouldn't have been happy, because INDIAN WELLS IS NOT A FUCKING GRAND SLAM IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU? If you think I am bothered because Williams fans are happy, you really need to stop drinking.


THIS IS A FUNNY ASS POST COMING FROM YOU FINGON. Now I think your a nice guy.. but tis post ticked me off. I stated my feelings and now I shall leave this thread.

If something, everything you said just proved my point, you have no clue about tennis, you don't like tennis, for you it's a racial matter, you enjoy only watching a black girl kicking a white girl's ass. Whatever anyone says about the Williams, or her fans you jump on that person's throat like a posessed. What players do you like? Venus, Serena and Alexandra Stevenson, anything in common???, you get angry to a point of losing control completely because someone dares to say something about people that only happen to be Williams fans, that you don't know, but as they reverence the goddess they must be good, and we should fight againts the white opressor.

Honestly, I didn't expect you to be such an ass, i thought you were more intelligent and I don't appreciate you insulting me when I was perfectly respectful and didn't insult anybody, just said what I think. So, don't bother to reply to talk to me again, I have better things to do than talking to an hysterical woman.

harloo
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:00 PM
Thanks angele87, I agree with this:
I think the issue is hard to understand unless you are a Williams fan.
So, I guess if you haven't figured it out by now then you never will.;)

Ms. Lively
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:07 PM
There are more complaints about what the Williams fans post, or don't post, than any other fan base. Just an observation.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Ms. Lively
There are more complaints about what the Williams fans post, or don't post, than any other fan base. Just an observation.

maybe because it's all you see on this board lately

Diamond
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:12 PM
Indeed that's what many whites expect us to to. Be happy when blacks succeed and not talk about the prejudices that arise in the sport of tennis.

Could you people imagine the kind of flack Venus and Serena would get if they exhibited a portion of the behavior that Jennifer displays on court? There would be countless articles, and commentators like Mary C, John M, Chris E, talking about it during every single match, I bet you. It's enough that they get booed almost every week they play.

The struggle continues...

harloo
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:16 PM
Ms lively, um.....are you a moderator or something since you seem to know so much about the complaints?:rolleyes:
Also, realize when any player whens a big tournament you will see more posts about them. So that doesn't fly so what's next? I mean really get over it guys, this is a messageboard where different people express their opinions about their favorite players. I love discussing topics, and kudos to who does well on the tour. If their fans wan't to post alot of threads about them then it doesn't bother me.:rolleyes: :p

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Diamond
Indeed that's what many whites expect us to to. Be happy when blacks succeed and not talk about the prejudices that arise in the sport of tennis.

Could you people imagine the kind of flack Venus and Serena would get if they exhibited a portion of the behavior that Jennifer displays on court? There would be countless articles, and commentators like Mary C, John M, Chris E, talking about it during every single match, I bet you. It's enough that they get booed almost every week they play.

The struggle continues...

Hmmm, let's see, many whites expect you to be happy when you favourite wins and that's another form of oppression, it's like we are giving you the satisfaction of having your favourite succeed and make you forget about prejudices.

I can't imagine what people would say about Venus and Serena, because they haven't show Jennifer's behaviour on court. I have seen instead a lot of criticism towards Jennifer, but I guess that's genuine criticism since Jennifer isn't black.

They get booed because they are black, Chanda Rubin, Zina Garrison weren't black, were they? and I guess that Monica Seles was black when she was booed in Miami in 2000, or Martina Hingis in the FO 99, or Pete Sampras in the US Open 98, or maybe Pat Rafter when he retired in the US Open 99.

Oh I forgot, rule # 1, if a non-black player gets booed, or criticized, there is a reason, if a black player does, it's because he/she is black. No exceptions, if a white players is unfairly booed, he/she must have done something, if a black player does something wrong, anyways the booing is because he/she is black.

BTW, I don't like Venus, Serena and Alexandra, I guess that makes me a racist and a hater. I like Chanda, and I used to like Zina Garrison a lot, but I guess that doesn't count because they are/were nice and didn't fight against oppression.

AjdeNate!
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:21 PM
Black/white... it only took 28 posts for someone to go there. Diamond, I do agree with your point about race for sure, but I'm not sure that's the place this topic was going.

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Seles
Black/white... it only took 28 posts for someone to go there. Diamond, I do agree with your point about race for sure, but I'm not sure that's the place this topic was going.

Its funny becuase fignon brought up the whole race topic by suggesting that Dawn Marie only supported Venus/Serena because they were black not becuase she liked tennis!

I think the quote is ....................
If something, everything you said just proved my point, you have no clue about tennis, you don't like tennis, for you it's a racial matter, you enjoy only watching a black girl kicking a white girl's ass. Whatever anyone says about the Williams, or her fans you jump on that person's throat like a posessed. What players do you like? Venus, Serena and Alexandra Stevenson, anything in common???, you get angry to a point of losing control completely because someone dares to say something about people that only happen to be Williams fans, that you don't know, but as they reverence the goddess they must be good, and we should fight againts the white opressor.

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:31 PM
Well weevee, first of all i respect your opinion. Let me clarify myself better. I don't dislike them as people. Venus and Serena are very nice young ladies. But as tennis players and rooting for them I do not like them. I root against them on the court. Moreover, i never really rooted for them anyways.....

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:33 PM
Fignon you are on a roll today dude! Keep it up! I am here in your corner all the way on this thread! :bounce:

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
WHY CANT YOUR ASS QUIT PUTTING ALL WILLIAMS FANS IN ONE GROUP? SINGLE OUT THOSE THAT YOU FEEL AREN'T HAPPY!!

Doesn't fell good, does it DAwn Marie? Listen to your own words girl...
lol, sometimes I just wonder how young old you are. Talking like that.. using caps like that... *sigh*

oh yeah.. why can't there be a thread that concerns Williams sis be without the word RACE??? Do SOME of you guys ever talk about something besides race?

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Marri


oh yeah.. why can't there be a thread that concerns Williams sis be without the word RACE??? Do SOME of you guys ever talk about something besides race?

Why don't you ask fingon he brought race up not Dawn??

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Mar 31st, 2002, 10:57 PM
did I say that Dawn was the one mentioning race? :rolleyes:

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Marri
did I say that Dawn was the one mentioning race? :rolleyes:

If you weren't referring to Dawn Marie than why did you address your post to her and then talk about her using capitals and then in capitals talk about someone bringing up race?? Also how does that change what I wrote?? Fingon brought it up first so ask him.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:05 PM
Rocketa, I have known Dawn from quite a while ago, and race is always the only issue with her.

That's exactly why she behaves like she does, anyone that knows her from the old sanex board can tell you, she always sees through other people's word, she always starts 1000s of idiotic retaliaton threads and she always brings up race.

That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:07 PM
yes, I did adress the first part of the post to Dawn. then I changed paragraph. and I didnt mention ANY names in that part. Tell me once again how you could see it like I was directing that part to only Dawn Marie.

nikita771
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:09 PM
I don't think that it's a question of not being happy, I think that it's using the message board for what it was intended - discussion. I started the thread about what Mary Carillo said because I wasn't sure if I'd heard it right. I was not taping the match and thought that the only way I could really find out was to ask the board. I was quite certain that alot of other people were watching the match and would know. I simply asked if that was what she had said. I wasn't complaining, I wasn't asking why, I was simply asking. I also am personally interested in where everyone stands in the rankings after a tournament - not just Serena or Venus. I am happy that Serena won and I have absolutely no reason to complain. She won a tournament and I am proud of her.

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Fingon
Rocketa, I have known Dawn from quite a while ago, and race is always the only issue with her.

That's exactly why she behaves like she does, anyone that knows her from the old sanex board can tell you, she always sees through other people's word, she always starts 1000s of idiotic retaliaton threads and she always brings up race.

That's a fact, whether you like it or not.

No the fact is that she didn't bring race up in this particular thread. The fact is you did. Wether it was based on previous discussions you had with her is moot because if someone comes here all they saw was you bringing race up. That is the truth. Accordling someone responded about race because you brought it up.

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Marri
yes, I did adress the first part of the post to Dawn. then I changed paragraph. and I didnt mention ANY names in that part. Tell me once again how you could see it like I was directing that part to only Dawn Marie.

the oh Yeah part and also the fact that you went through the process of directing the first part to her and not addressing the second part everyone. I was pointing out that you should have directed that to fingon becuase he brought it up regardless of who you actually were addressing it to.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:16 PM
Nikita, my post wasn't directed to you, I didn't even know you started a topic about Mary Carrillo.

The reason, for those who still couldn't understand, is that this board is turning into what the sanex board tends to be.

A player wins a great title and instead of seeing celebrations or congratulations, you see moaning threads all over the place.

What irritates me is that this is a tennis message board, to talk about tennis, and that's increasingly difficult as some people use it as a way to express their frustration about life. The Sanex board become a forum about race and 99% of the topics were about race and how oppressed blacks are in USA, forgetting that there were people who were not interested on that and just wanted to talk about tennis, and couldn't.

If I make a comment about Venus or Serena that is not praising them, I will have a Williams fan jumping off my throat, I have to exclude them from any comment because I am not allowed to, that's really tiresome. that of course doesn't apply to all Williams fans as everybody except Dawn Marie could read and certainly doesn't apply to you.

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:18 PM
What irritates me is that this is a tennis message board, to talk about tennis, and that's increasingly difficult as some people use it as a way to express their frustration about life. The Sanex board become a forum about race and 99% of the topics were about race and how oppressed blacks are in USA, forgetting that there were people who were not interested on that and just wanted to talk about tennis, and couldn't.

hmm just think how upsetting it is to live through and not just have to read about it!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

since you clearly feel like discussing race since you keep bringing it up!

nikita771
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:19 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, Fingon. It makes a lot more sense to me to hear you explain it that way.

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:21 PM
lmao, so you just know that I was directing the 2dn part to DM huh?... hmm... you must know me better then I know myself. In my 2nd I wasn't just talking about THIS thread. Unlike some ppl, I don't just direct my posts to one person when it concerns so many.

Ps. Next time I write a post, i'll be sure to put Part 2 or "the 2nd part is NOT directed to ONE person first. Just so you don't misunderstnd my posts! :)

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Rocketta


hmm just think how upsetting it is to live through and not just have to read about it!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

since you clearly feel like discussing race since you keep bringing it up!

as I told Dawn Marie in another post, I won't bother anymore, it's pointless talking to a wall.

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Fingon


as I told Dawn Marie in another post, I won't bother anymore, it's pointless talking to a wall.

I agree you shouldn't bring up topics that you don't really want to discuss!

Rocketta
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Marri

Ps. Next time I write a post, i'll be sure to put Part 2 or "the 2nd part is NOT directed to ONE person first. Just so you don't misunderstnd my posts! :)

or you can just keep being misunderstood, your choice :wavey:

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:29 PM
lol, seems like you're the only one misunderstanding, so it's okay! I wont change a thing!

Good night, going to bed now. Happy posting EVERYONE! :D

treufreund
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:41 PM
Fingon,

Your honesty, passion and bravery are commendable. EXCELLENT POSTS!!! This board for the last month has seen an increasing barrage of pro-Williams, anti-Hingis/Capriati/Kournikova/any other player threads.

Fingon
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:42 PM
Rocketa, ok, let me try it one more time (as I can't connect to the dammed ftp server but nevermind)

It wasn't me who accused Dawn Marie of bringing race to this topic, so, you entire accusation that I brought race first is moot. I accused Dawn of being stupid and that's different, yes, I did bring race and I stated my reasons, if you don't agree, good for you, they are still my reasons, if you don't like it, too bad, I am not here to please anyone, you can always add me to your ignore list (wait, what a great idea, I finish this post and I will add Dawn Marie to my ignore list :))

AjdeNate!
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:45 PM
The never ending thread.... ;)
Everybody's so passionate about different things, and very few people seem to even be remotely interested in listen to other peoples thoughts and perhaps debate an opposing idea to reaffirm or dispell their own beliefs. Oh well, I guess we all can't be open minded.

CanadianBoy21
Mar 31st, 2002, 11:52 PM
Okay, this thread is very dumb, because if for example Hingis won, Hingis fans would go crazy, the same way us Williams fans go crazy.
NOT WOULD, BUT DID, remember Sanex board, when Martina used to win matches against power players, their was ALWAYS behaviour that was worse then this!
Has anyone said things like Cappy is chubby, Martina can land airplanes on her forehand, etc...? No, so, if you don't like the way we are celebrating, TOO BAD, how would u celebrate if your fave was dominating?? Don't tell me you would compliment the opponent your fave just dismantled?
If you believe your fave is going to win another title beating all top players, wait, then celebrate your way, just don't complain.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by Superhero
Okay, this thread is very dumb, because if for example Hingis won, Hingis fans would go crazy, the same way us Williams fans go crazy.

Threads are not dumb, people who write them are dumb. What would happen if Hingis won is speculation and I won't start a debate on speculation. For your information, I have argued with some Martina fans when I disagreed with them.

NOT WOULD, BUT DID, remember Sanex board, when Martina used to win matches against power players, their was ALWAYS behaviour that was worse then this!
if you stopped generalizing and were more specific maybe I would understand what you say.

Has anyone said things like Cappy is chubby, Martina can land airplanes on her forehand, etc...? No, so, if you don't like the way we are celebrating, TOO BAD,
:confused:

how would u celebrate if your fave was dominating??


not moaning all the time, that's for sure.

Don't tell me you would compliment the opponent your fave just dismantled?

Has anybody accused you or anyone else for not complimenting the opponent? :confused:

If you believe your fave is going to win another title beating all top players, wait, then celebrate your way, just don't complain.


You ask me not to complain? :confused:

CanadianBoy21
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:21 AM
YES, I ask you not to complain! You did create this thread, for what reason, to COMPLIMENT the Williams sisters?
No, but to complain about Williams fans, "Why can't Williams fans just be happy?"

"But no, for some (notice the bold some) Williams fans any chance is good to moan, they will never be happy, no matter what. "


WHAT?
:confused:

We are happy!
What do you consider happy by the way??

"Threads are not dumb, people who write them are dumb. "


:confused: Didn't you write the thread? :confused:
U just said you are dumb :confused:

By the way, I know what you meant, but don't know why u are looking too much into ever freakin word. Some people don't know English perfectly, for me it's not my mother language, not my second language either.
So back off.



"not moaning all the time, that's for sure."

Mission Impossible 3

...

Dawn Marie
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:28 AM
FINGON WHY FANS CAN AND DO LIKE PLAYERS BECAUSE THEY SOMEHOW REPRESENT THEM.

I LIKE TO WATCH VENUS AND SERENA BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD!! AND BECAUSE THEY ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR!! LIKE ME!!

MANY PEOPLE CHOOSE TO SUPPORT PLAYERS THAT THEY FEEL REPRESENT THEM! LIKE RUSSIAN'S SUPPORTING THE RUSSIANS. AND ASIANS SUPPORTING THE ASIANS. SPANISH SUPPORTING THE SPANISH! WHITES SUPPORTING THE WHITES (THEN THROWING IN CHANDA FOR COVER). he he.. lol;)

I WISH VENUS TO TROUNCE NOT ONLY THE WHITE GALS.. BUT THE ASIANS,THE SPANISH, THE RUSSIANS DONT GIVE A CARE. BECAUSE I LIKE MY FAVORITES! SO IT IS NOT WHITE VRS. BLACK.

BUT FOR YOU IT IS!!

WHY DO YOU LIKE ELENA DEMENTIEVA AND YET DISLIKE SERENA OR VENUS? YOUR AN ASS FINGON! I WOULD RATHER LIKE A PLAYER FOR THIER GAME AND WHAT THEY REPRESENT THEN FOR THEIR LEGS OR BECASUE THEY ARE NOT BLACK!

YOU LIKE ELENA BUT DISLIKE VENUS. WHY? FINGON?

ON MSN ABOUT 2 WEEKS AGO. YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY SOME SOME PEOPLE SUPPORT VENUS AND ALEX BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK. I THEN SHUT YOUR MOUTH BY SAYING THE SAME REASONS THAT FOLKS LIKE TAMMY, LINA< CONCHI AND THE LIKE.

NOPE IT IS YOU WITH THE RACE PROBLEM. STILL ANSWER THIS QUESTION. WHY DO YOU LIKE ELENA D AND NOT VENUS OR SERENA? IS IT BECASUE SERENA IS NOT WHITE? LMAO AT YOU.

Sometimes Fingon your plain stupid.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Superhero
YES, I ask you not to complain! You did create this thread, for what reason, to COMPLIMENT the Williams sisters?
No, but to complain about Williams fans, "Why can't Williams fans just be happy?"
"But no, for some (notice the bold some) Williams fans any chance is good to moan, they will never be happy, no matter what. "


WHAT?
:confused:

Well, sorry mate but I didn't know you were my boss to tell me what to do...


We are happy!
What do you consider happy by the way??

"Threads are not dumb, people who write them are dumb. "


:confused: Didn't you write the thread? :confused:
U just said you are dumb :confused:


correction, I never said that, I said that what you meant by saying the thread I started was dumb was that I was dumb. I reserve my opinion


By the way, I know what you meant, but don't know why u are looking too much into ever freakin word. Some people don't know English perfectly, for me it's not my mother language, not my second language either.
So back off.

English isn't my first language either and I have never have tried to down what other people said by looking at their grammatical or spelling errors and in fact, I have experienced that a lot when some people chose to attack my english instead of what I was saying.

When I said I didn't understand what you mean, I meant that, I didn't, sorry, but I didn't.



"not moaning all the time, that's for sure."

Mission Impossible 3


Perfect example of the above, I just don't understand what you mean.

angele87
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:34 AM
Is it possible to dislike Venus and/or Serena for a reason other than their color??

FroggyLight
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:35 AM
*sigh* Why can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by FroggyLight
*sigh* Why can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

Ask Dawn Marie, she made an issue of a simple comment.

CanadianBoy21
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:36 AM
"Well, sorry mate but I didn't know you were my boss to tell me what to do... "

Dude, listen up, I didn't tell you what to do or not to do, it's a message board, I don't ask for u to obey me through the internet.







"I just don't understand what you mean."

It's okay buddy, some brains just can process certain amount of information.

CanadianBoy21
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:40 AM
"Is it possible to dislike Venus and/or Serena for a reason other than their color??"

That's what pisses me off.
Why would anyone like someone because of colour?
I'm same colour as Cappy, yet I dislike her, no big deal.

But I guess some people find that hard.
One for example is #1 in tennis, Lleyton Hewitt
:rolleyes:


If u don't like Venus or Serena, fine with me/

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Superhero
"Well, sorry mate but I didn't know you were my boss to tell me what to do... "

Dude, listen up, I didn't tell you what to do or not to do, it's a message board, I don't ask for u to obey me through the internet.







"I just don't understand what you mean."

It's okay buddy, some brains just can process certain amount of information.

Ok buddy, since I don't come here to be insulted, you have been added to my ignore list as well. I do have an opinion on your capacity but will reserve it for myself.

CanadianBoy21
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:50 AM
it was a joke.

Am I supposed to put a smiley face after everything I joke about?


:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Better????????????/

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Fingon
Rocketa, ok, let me try it one more time (as I can't connect to the dammed ftp server but nevermind)

It wasn't me who accused Dawn Marie of bringing race to this topic, so, you entire accusation that I brought race first is moot.

No its not moot because I wasn't posting to you when I said you brought it up. I was replying to Marri and someone else (I can't remember) and then you came on and said you only brought it up because Dawn Marie always talked about race in the past. Your statement was that "it was a fact" and I pointed out that the true fact before me at least was that you brought up race not Dawn Marie.


I accused Dawn of being stupid and that's different, yes, I did bring race and I stated my reasons, if you don't agree, good for you, they are still my reasons, if you don't like it, too bad, I am not here to please anyone, you can always add me to your ignore list (wait, what a great idea, I finish this post and I will add Dawn Marie to my ignore list :))

The point is then you went on to bring up race again....and in the post say how you didn't want to read about race issues all the time. So then I responded and then you said you would drop it which i felt was a good thing since it was a topic you didn't want to discuss (see race issues).



so to recap.......

1. My posts referring to you bringing race up first wasn't directed at you but to other posters in the beginning until you responded.

2. My post referring to your lack of wanting to read posts about race issues was directed at you.

As far as being on my ignore list, you would have to be a bother to me and you're not. Now why you haven't already put DM on yours tells me that you probably like the confrontation more than you are admitting.:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Dawn Marie
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:51 AM
Why do some people dislike Serena's power game, but still like Elena Demientiva as a player? They claim the only reason why they dislike the Williams is ONLY power, then why pray tell do they like Elena and NOT Serena or Alex or Venus?

Still wanting the question answered.. if one can.

again. One dislikes Serena only cause of the POWER tennis. But still like Elena Demietiva who is all POWER? IMHO I think it's due to the fact that they don't just dislike Serena's POWER tennis.. but also her complexion. LMAO

SM
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:58 AM
you don't like tennis, for you it's a racial matter, you enjoy only watching a black girl kicking a white girl's ass. What players do you like? Venus, Serena and Alexandra Stevenson, anything in common???,
by that same pattern of thought us aussies supporting the aussies, asians supporting asians, myself supporting the macos etc. is all racially motivated and that we're all ethnocentric...
possibly for SOME(not many) this may be the case but for most of us viewers its actually quite simple , as Dawn stated they represent us and we can better relate to them...

all this talk about race is really unconstructive and getting us no where...lets talk more about the game instead of inextricably linking race to every topic

FroggyLight
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:59 AM
I agree with SM

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by angele87
Is it possible to dislike Venus and/or Serena for a reason other than their color??

I think it is but I also think that some people aren't willing to admit that there are tennis fans out there that do like the William sisters becuase they are black. I mean normal tennis fans not the nuts.

I think it is highly possible to not their games especially if they beat your fav all the time. However, I think posters underestimate the effects of those many nuts that have posted some nasty things about them and the lack of outrage by some non-William supporters!

ptkten
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:09 AM
Very good point Dawn :) I get sick and tired when people have to defend why they like their favorite players. If Dawn likes Venus and Serena because they are black, then that is good for her. If someone likes Asian players because they are Asians then that is fine too. I like watching white basketball players do well because they are succeeding in a sport where tehy are a minority, why is it a crime when people cheer on blacks in tennis because they are succeeding in a sport where they are a minority.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Rocketta



1. My posts referring to you bringing race up first wasn't directed at you but to other posters in the beginning until you responded.

2. My post referring to your lack of wanting to read posts about race issues was directed at you.

As far as being on my ignore list, you would have to be a bother to me and you're not. Now why you haven't already put DM on yours tells me that you probably like the confrontation more than you are admitting.:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: [/B]

For your information, Dawn Marie and Superhero are both in my ignore list, you are not as you haven't been disrespectful although we disagreed.

I would be glad to discuss about race issues with you another time, this just went completely out of control and completely out of the original issue and maybe I was harsh to you just because others pissed me off and I apologize for that.

angele87
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Rocketta


I think it is but I also think that some people aren't willing to admit that there are tennis fans out there that do like the William sisters becuase they are black. I mean normal tennis fans not the nuts.



Yeah I know some people like Venus and Serena because they are black and I accept that even though I may not agree but I just don't like hearing that the only reason somebody doesn't like Venus and Serena is because they are black when that is often not the case.

Diamond
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:25 AM
Chanda and Zina are not Venus and Serena. I do respect these two extraordinary women, but Venus and Serena have had more success in their careers than C & Z.

V & S are rarely given props. for trying to obtain degrees while playing. How many players have achieved Venus' feat of winning 4 GS, attaining the #1 ranking and attending school at the same time? All you hear from the predominately white tennis media is how V & S don't take the sport seriously. They would be praising Jennifer or Lindsay to no end, if it were either of them.

Bottom line, if these two black girls were not practically dominating a sport that is more than 99% white, no one would give a damn. A lot of white people don't like it, plan and simple.

People can have their delusions about racism not existing or not actually seeing it. However, where I live, it's alive and well. And I live in what is supposed to be the most diverse (NY) city in the world.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by Rocketta


I think it is but I also think that some people aren't willing to admit that there are tennis fans out there that do like the William sisters becuase they are black. I mean normal tennis fans not the nuts.

I think it is highly possible to not their games especially if they beat your fav all the time. However, I think posters underestimate the effects of those many nuts that have posted some nasty things about them and the lack of outrage by some non-William supporters!

To talk seriously about a serious issue. You are right, I am sure there are many people that hate the Williams because they are black and succesful. The problem is that when someone dislikes them for other reason, that person is labelled as a racist. It is not possible (with some posters) to dislike the sisters for a reason other than their skin colour.

I don't like them because I hate power, simple, I never liked Steffi Graf or Monica Seles for the exact same reason. I have had to justify why I liked Elena Dementieva being herself a power player and some people can't accept that I like the way she looks.

I used to like Zina Garrison, because she played an style I enjoyed watching, if Venus or Serena played like that I would like them too, but they don't and IMO they never will. Nothing wrong with that, I am not saying they are better or worse, simply that I don't like their style, I don't like Lindsay Davenport or Jennifer Capriati for example. I like Justine Henin, Martina Hingis (the way she used to play), Daja Bedanova. I like some players because of their personality, like Monica Seles or Sandrine, but I don't watch their matches as they don't appeal to me. I like some players because of the way they look, which might be silly but is very natural and I am not ashamed to admit it, if I watch them is rather to wath them than their games.

I watched the Serena/Jennifer final, and yes, the match was exciting from the point of view that you didn't know what was going to happen until the end, but that's not what I like in tennis, and although I knew that before the match started, neither player can't offer me what I want in a tennis match, that's just the way I like the game.

You migth say that maybe I get to watch very little tennis lately since most players are power players, and you would be right, I have missed a bunch of GS finals because I found them plain boring, and the most the power players dominate the tour the less I like women's tennis (I stopped liked men's tennis long ago and I don't even bother to know who is in the GS finals)

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Fingon


I would be glad to discuss about race issues with you another time, this just went completely out of control and completely out of the original issue and maybe I was harsh to you just because others pissed me off and I apologize for that.

No need for apologies. I don't think you said anything that needs an apology. Maybe we'll discuss it one day! ;)

Dawn Marie
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:30 AM
Thank you, and for the record. the very first player that caught my eye was non other then Monica Seles.:) very classy player.

But then Venus and her little sis came along and I really liked their personality and game. They got dogged so I felt for them as a fan. They were women of color..I identified with them. Great role models and I am now crazy about them. (esp. VENUS) I also enjoy other players as well. I like Amelie,Justine, Daniela, Seles,Sadrine,Ai,Maria Sharapova,Lina K, Rita Grande,Maria Sanchez Lorenzo,Conchi, Jelena,Mirjana. I root for these gals to win but not when they play my favorites.:) I really shouldn't have to explain who I like anyhow.

So stop using the excuse people that it is a white and black thing cause that makes you look ignorant. Some just don't understand how people of color can cheer on their own. Don't know why is is so fathomsome to some, I mean gays cheer for Navratolava and Amelie all the time. Many of us just like to support people who has our views in life.:)

angele87
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:35 AM
I think rarely will you find somebody that bases their favorite players simply on their games because if that was the case everybody would have tons and tons of favorites. I know that personally I like players based on a combination of their games and personalities and in the men's game I guess yes, even their looks. For example, I like Venus more than Serena... why?? Their personlities...

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:45 AM
I don't like them because I hate power, simple, I never liked Steffi Graf or Monica Seles for the exact same reason. I have had to justify why I liked Elena Dementieva being herself a power player and some people can't accept that I like the way she looks.


I can accept that cause (no offense) red heads are a complete turn off! I can see how people have fav's because of the way they look (ie sexiness factor). I think there is a difference between being more attracted to a certain type and totally being unattracted to everyone of a particular race.

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:48 AM
I mean all red heads (black and white)! :) I hope i didn't offend anyone. I really really didn't mean to.:angel:

tennisfun
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:59 AM
I am amazed at the creation of this thread and the response. But all in all , it's just the venting of the bitterness and frustration of the losers. Look at that, Marti fans, seles fans, and Jen's fans, did you see anything in common here? Their favorites all got their butt whiped and they tried to get even here by stirring up such an ugly fight. Pleeees!

angele87
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:00 AM
I used to be a redhead but i'm not anymore so it's ok :p

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:25 AM
LoL at this thread! It still boogles my mind that some fans are more invested in the tennis than the actual players! To me this is very simple. What fingnon said is true, but it also applies to all the fans of the other players as well. So really he wasn't making much of a point at all.

Anyone can start a thread and say the SOME fans of tennis player X blah blah blah.... Get the picture? So really this thread is drivel and makes me wonder what his point is? Seems to be only to stir up strife.

Anyway congrats to serena many more too boot. Also congrats to hingis venus and jen for putting up nice fights, good luck next time.

Seems to me SOME fans can't accept a loss or a win without a bunch of bruhaha. :angel:

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by cybelledarkholmexx
LoL at this thread! It still boogles my mind that some fans are more invested in the tennis than the actual players! To me this is very simple. What fingnon said is true, but it also applies to all the fans of the other players as well. So really he wasn't making much of a point at all.

Anyone can start a thread and say the SOME fans of tennis player X blah blah blah.... Get the picture? So really this thread is drivel and makes me wonder what his point is? Seems to be only to stir up strife.

Anyway congrats to serena many more too boot. Also congrats to hingis venus and jen for putting up nice fights, good luck next time.

Seems to me SOME fans can't accept a loss or a win without a bunch of bruhaha. :angel:

Well, if that's your opinion, I won't argue that, if you think you know why I start a thread and are happy with that, I have no problems.

In fact, the point that many people seem to miss and that was buried by all the bullshit that came across is that I believe what Venus and Serena have achieved is great, you nearly couldn't expect more if you were their fan and I just can't understand why some fans just focus on the negative.

As I said before, I wish that my favourite Justine would be winning tournaments like they do, and I wouldn't care for small negative things in their way, but that's just my opinion.

And also for those who think this thread is originated in my "biterness" for my favourite having her ass kicked by Serena, I suggest them to get their head out of their ass and maybe they could find a thread were I stated how I blamed Martina for just giving up.

The fact I don't like the Williams sisters game doesn't mean I don't recognize what they are as players, and if my favourites can't play them, it's their fault.

BTW, I didn't see any Jennifer fan moaning when she won the Australian Open, maybe I missed it.

Anyways, I am tired of all this bullshit, if you want to think you know my motivations, go ahead, there is not point in arguing that.

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:53 AM
Fing

Of course I don't know your motivations. I'm not a mindreader. I was speculating based on what I read. I guess I was wrong, but I think my point still stands about SOME fans.

I too wish justine well. She's got a killer game and a wicked back hand. However, I would have no problem voicing some constructive criticism about her game. She has weak spots that are definitely correctable, just like a lot of players.

I still don't think justine has come into her own. With her I feel she has more of a mental battle to win, which is a lot tougher in my opinion. I think she gets wrapped up in her opponent way too much and defeats herself almost before stepping on court or during a changeover.

I firmly believe she'll find her confidence and self belief and start winning more tournaments. Once she stops believing the hype about other players her game will take care of the rest.

ps
I also applaud her for reworking her service game. I mean how many players have the nerve and guts to rebuild their serve? That was great and it will serve her well once she finds her new groove.

I also think she would be having a better year if kim wasn't from belgium. I think the rivaly and comparisons has done more to hurt justine than help her.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:08 AM
cybell, I do think Justine has many things to work on her game and the mental part is one of the main things.

I also agree that the pressure for being the best belgian plays a part, specially because they each represent the two part the country is divided and I think that influences her, specially through the press.

No player is perfect, not even STeffi Graf, or Monica in the early 90s or Martina Navratilova were, Justine, the Williams, Jennifer, Martina they all have their weak points.

I think Justine is probably doing the right thing trying to remaster her game, mostly because really had only one decisive weapon, the backhand and players simply avoided it and she needed an alternative, the problem is that serve an volley needs time and I wonder if she will mentally able to stand that.

About Venus and Serena, honestly I have nothing to say about them, some (and again, remarking some) of their fans irritate me and although some times that puts me off them it's certainly not their fault. And some Williams fans are very mature and nice as well as some Martina fans are real asses, I can't say the same about Justine fans as I haven't seen any that behaves like one, except a poster (Belcebu I think was his name) that posted on the sanex board.

Anyways, I am off for a coffee as an stupid ftp server is driving me nuts and I need some fresh air, I HATE technology when it doesn't' work :fiery:

griffin
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:09 AM
2 things I don't understand:

1) Why it should seem odd to anyone that fans of any given player could be thrilled at a big win AND offended by the way that player was treated by the fans/media/posters at the same time. If Amelie wins a big tournament, and you start ragging on her, trust me I'll be jumping for joy for her, but I'll let you have it, too. It doesn't surprise or confuse me at all to see other fans doing the same.

2) Why many of the people who complain about the way the Sanex board used to be are so damned invested in bringing their baggage from that board to this one.

AjdeNate!
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:13 AM
Well said Griff! Go Momo!!!

Althea
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:17 AM
:bounce: thank you Griffin, I had made a long post basically saying the same thing but took so long writing it, It got kicked out and where my post went I'll never know.
rest in peace post

also I do agree with the following (part quote of another posters comment)

"...This applies to all the fans of the other players as well"

Brief from my lost post:sad:.

I can be happy one of my faves won and ... still be dismayed, upset or whatever about negative comments/ treatment by the crowds, other fans on this board etc, etc.

Why should I just be happy one of my faves won.

Also why hate a player just because you don't like some of their fans.:eek: It's like okay a few blacks, white, asians, polka dotted people have upset me, so now I shall hate all people of that race/color/nationality and I shall say it is all the fault of the ones that upset me in the first place. So sad:sad:

If someone was to say that they only react to situations like this on the board and not in real life I would think they lie because the board does allow us to get a peep at how real people really react to various situations

Hate one.... so Hate 'Em All:eek: :eek: :sad:

TeeRexx
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:12 AM
from Fingon:
-----------------
"No player is perfect, not even STeffi Graf, or Monica in the early 90s or Martina Navratilova were, Justine, the Williams, Jennifer, Martina they all have their weak points. "
------------------

Hey, VENUS and SERENA are perfect! :eek: :p

Hi everybody! :wavey:

Halardfan
Apr 1st, 2002, 09:02 AM
Well, Serena might be perfect...not that other girl you mention Mr Rexx, whoever she might be... ;)


Semi Final you say? :p

Lost to who you say? :p

Back in serious mode...everyone, on all sides needs to see the sisters as individuals more, not as a package that you have to like or dislike as a whole. They are actually very different personalities, and I think its possbile to like one and be less keen on the other.

Like me with Serena...

And Mr Rexx with his semi-finalist Venus... :p :wavey:

veryborednow
Apr 1st, 2002, 09:19 AM
Good morning all :)

nice to see we getting along :rolleyes:

jomar
Apr 1st, 2002, 09:32 AM
was that suppose to be an April fool's line?:confused: :rolleyes:

veryborednow
Apr 1st, 2002, 09:35 AM
mine?

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by tennisfun
I am amazed at the creation of this thread and the response. But all in all , it's just the venting of the bitterness and frustration of the losers. Look at that, Marti fans, seles fans, and Jen's fans, did you see anything in common here? Their favorites all got their butt whiped and they tried to get even here by stirring up such an ugly fight. Pleeees!

:rolleyes: okay... i think you forgot the Willi fans... :rolleyes: there are more willi fans then Marti, Monica and Jen in this thread.

:rolleyes:

Experimentee
Apr 1st, 2002, 02:47 PM
The same can be said about hingis fans. I've noticed that if someone even mentions her name they get at least one marti fan jumping all over them.

And there are a lot of congratulations threads, if you'd bother to look around the board a little.

swiftrider
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Shane54
Fignon, I totally agree with you. After being on the old WTA board and this one, I could never understand why some had that attitude. But then, it all came to the surface. Someone started a thread for everyone to post their age and alot of Williams' fans were between 15- 18 yrs. old so that explained alot of things...
--

Well, this Venus fan is over 60, and I will throw down in defending the Williams sisters from the B--S--. In addition, I consider Fingon my FRIEND.

Bella
Apr 1st, 2002, 04:27 PM
I know this is a sidenote on a post above and nobody in here likes anyone straying off-topic, but, nevertheless .........

And there are a lot of congratulations threads, if you'd bother to look around the board a little.


Posting a congratulations thread as a way of starting a conversation and celebration with other fans makes a lot of sense to me. But, why does anyone think that fans of other players should start congratulation threads for someone else's favorites? How did they morph into a right or a slight?

Somehow, some fans have attached a significance of "now, we have you; you never said congratulations; this proves everything I ever said about....." to any lack of or delay in posting a congratulations.

Somehow, too, "congratulations to the fans" threads are another legitimate right. Why should someone congratulate fans for what the players do?

Because of the demand for these, the threads look a little silly and patronizing to me.

Ryan
Apr 1st, 2002, 04:43 PM
Hmmm, seems we all forgot to take pep pills this morning eh?

treufreund
Apr 1st, 2002, 05:11 PM
Dawn Marie,

I see where you are coming from but just wanted to say that when I was a kid I rooted for Navratilova because I thought she was strong in spite of being treated so badly by America. I did not root for her because she is gay and I like Amelie but root for Martina over her. I felt very proud of myself for rooting the players I like NOT based on their sexuality or any other category. I believe that if you want people to overcome racism then you have to also overcome it yourself Dawn. I know that you will say you are not racist yourself but having read all of your thousands of posts pertaining to race I know that you are a very angry lady. And yet you have a good heart. White people cannot read your posts without feeling how angry you are with all of us. It seems to me that many black people I have known in my life are completely comfortable and happy with white BUT there is another significant number of blacks who can NEVER say "you're welcome" or "thank you" to me because I am white. And I know that it's because of my race because they said "thank you" to the black person in line in front of me. Sometimes the look in their eyes can be one of great resentment. I have always felt that coming from Richard Williams and I believe that he has passed a lot of that on to his daughters. I believe that Venus and Serena were taught from a young age to distrust whites and to expect white to be against. I believe their father taught them this to make them strong but that ultimately it is because of their deeply held mistrust (plus their religion makes them a minority) of others that makes them distant from other players. I know that you will probably read this and be ANGRY with me and tell me that I don't know what it's like to be black. You're right; I don't know but I certainly have read thousands of posts on that experience. I, as a white person, have also had my own experiences (my best friend is black and I had a black boyfriend ). I go to a gym that is very racially mixed and went to a university with 20% blacks and lived in France and Germany so I have seen many different peoples and situations.


Racism has hurt all people in our country and many whites like myself who had nothing to do with slavery or discrimination are still being made to pay for it. Many white people are cynical for sure but I feel that Richard Williams and his daughters who went along with him at a younger age used the race card. It would be very difficult and require way too many posts to explain this all to you though. I have come to a point where I have good feelings towards Serena and really like Oracene. Venus and Richard I do not like. Serena is becoming a great young lady. I like to see how nice she has been towards Martina and Jenn and all the players. that's all white people wanted from Venus and Serena. Just a little sign of respect Dawn. Because after all you can't scream and yell that they are mistreated, discriminated and disrespected unless you show a little respect. You have to give it to get it. As soon as Serena has started to be nicer my feelings have warmed to her and that is all it took. The problem lies in perception. I am sure many people of color think that people like me don't like the Williams because of their color but that is wrong. Nobody has the right to tell me why I don't like a player. It was never their color but rather their initial unrelenting unwillingness to show any sign of respect to their opponents or to the legends of tennis. but life and some losses have changed Venus and Serena along with the influence of their mother WHO IS CLASSY AS ALL HELL. :D I am very glad to see that the years and years of Richard's influence on his daughters is waning. I believe that Venus and Serena are changing for the better. They are opening up but their feeling of differentness (race and religion) make it very difficult for them. I don't know that I will ever have Venus as a fave mainly because of her stoicism and her style of play and because I like underdogs but never say never. At least one day maybe I will be neutral or indifferent to her. Serena, on the other hand, has impressed me in many ways. :D

Vanity
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:10 PM
I LIKE TO WATCH VENUS AND SERENA BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD!! AND BECAUSE THEY ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR!! LIKE ME!!

Keep dreaming dear, you're only about 8% black, if that.

Dawn Marie
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:14 PM
Truefiend to be honest with you I scrolled down your long ass post and just read your first two sentences.

I think your nuts and wish to just tell you to shut the heck up. Don't even try to give me some bullshit pep talk. I will never listen to you because I find you ignorant and a racist whiner.

A person has got problems if they can't handle other posters talking much praise about Serena AND wondering why she is only ranked #7 or disliking Mary C commentary. Like I told Fingon if he doesn't like it then leave because WE are not going anywhere and WE will always defend the sista's.


NOW FINGON OR WHOEVER CHOSE TO BRING RACE INTO THIS TOPIC. SO SHUT UP AND DON'T EVEN REFER TO ME.. TREUFIEND.

THE BIAS PERSON IN THIS TOPIC IS FINGON. He seems to have a problem with people being happy over Serena's wins and our debates. By the way I like Venus because she is BLACK too.. and don't you ever FORGET THAT TREUFIEND.

next time please keep your post short, and while I am at it.. could you try to keep your Lleyton Hewitt topis in the ATP forum.

Griffin said it best. I thank you Griffin.:)

Vanity
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:16 PM
shut up already you stupid bitch

vw43
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:18 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

rated_next
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:22 PM
Dawn: it is treufreund

At least I'm going to be able to enjoy Porto, Sarasota, and Dubai, since Venus, Serena, and Alexandra are not competing; hence, most of their annoying fans won't be interested in those tournaments.

treufreund
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:36 PM
Dawn,

If you won't even bother to read my posts then how can you judge them? I was speaking from the heart and apparently my honesty struck a raw nerve in you. Are you losing your mind or is something traumatic going on in your life??? If so, I wish you the best. Your reply to me was very angry. I guess everybody around here would just prefer to put up facades. Your view of the world is so scarily black and white that I'm afraid nothing I or anyone else could say could actually open your mind. also the whole treufiend thing is really old. Should you prefer to be called daMn Maree instead of daWn? :rolleyes:

Bella
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Dawn Marie
NOW FINGON OR WHOEVER CHOSE TO BRING RACE INTO THIS TOPIC. SO SHUT UP AND DON'T EVEN REFER TO ME.. TREUFIEND.

The first race post was this:

Originally posted by Dawn Marie
FINGON YOUR JUST TRYING TO START A WILLIAMS HATE TOPIC......

Who used the word first or who brought it up first?

Please, no silly posts saying that was not bringing up race. When has a Williams fan not been talking about race when posting that and accusations calling people "haters". Fingon addressing it in his next post was not surprising.

Originally posted by Dawn Marie
.....AND wondering why she is only ranked #7....

This is because of a point system the WTA uses. It's is based on wins within a 12 month period. Didn't know any of you were wondering or I would have posted this earlier.

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by swiftrider

--

Well, this Venus fan is over 60, and I will throw down in defending the Williams sisters from the B--S--. In addition, I consider Fingon my FRIEND.

Hi cehoward, it's nice to hear from you and sad that you don't post more often.

You know me well and I am sure you understood the purpose of this thread that is by no means to attack the Williams sisters or Williams fans, not even the recalcitrant ones.

It could have been naive from my part but I thought it was sad that some fans were more focused on negative stuff than enjoying their favourites wins. Of course, they have the right for that, I just expressed my opinion and that seemed to have bothered some people, oh well.

But anytime I see a post from someone like you, that reminds me not only that there are many Williams fans very mature and reasonable (and I am not talking about your age ;)) but also that the majority of them are that way. The problem is that the bad ones make a lot of noise and seem to be a majority but that's not true. It also reminds me that we are only tennis fans and rooting for tennis players, and we can have differences, arguments and fights over that but overall, it's more important what is inside the person. Of course, I don't know anyone in this message board enough to judge them as persons and I only can use what they post. But in your case, I believe I know a little more and think you are valuable as a person, no matter who you root for, and that's more important to me.

persond
Apr 1st, 2002, 06:50 PM
Treufreund,
I know your post was directed to Dawn, however, I felt compelled to respond, simply because I sense you're laboring under some false misconceptions . Firstly, I'm just a few years older than Richard Williams, and having been reared during segregated times, share similar feelings with him. I attended a Historically Black College which, along with my parents, prepared me to survive in a segregated society. It was the duty of every Black parent to protect their children as well as prepare them for the racism they were certain to face. Traditionally, coping skills were passed on from generation to generation, with emphasis on the current state of affairs. Now, I don't think all white people bad, but left up to their own devices, white people will support white people every time. I know this for fact.
Secondly, some of the most racists people I know have Black friends or are actually married to people of color. I am certainly not calling you a racist, but to point out that racism and interracial realtionships are not mutually exclusive. Oten times the racist is not aware of his/her own innermost feelings.
Then, the issue of respect. Why is it that only Black folk that are submissive to whites and "well behaved" in the eyes of whites considered "good people". It's been true all throughout history. You often see references to Zina and Chandra and even Arthur Ashe as the examples of Blacks having been accepted in tennis. However, never expose the ugliness of the tour; or dare to march to your own drummer or you'll be branded as "difficult", "arrogant" or "not friendly". You said Venus and Serena didn't show other tour players "respect", and yet you never were able to state how much "respect" they were shown. I have yet to hear of either Sister disparaging another player. Further, you pointed out how "nice" Serena was towards Martina and Jennifer. Again, I ask you, why was it incumbent of Serena to act nicely towards them and not the other way around???? I agree that inorder to get "respect" you must first extend "respect" to others. I've no record of Venus and Serena ever disrespecting anyone, no matter how they were treated.
Thirldly, I can appreciate your sentiments regarding the simple task of saying "thank you" or "you're welcomed". But, what about the time I'm often in line and white folks approach and act as if I'm invisible? Or after standing on line, to have a white person approach and receive service ahead of me??
This is surely not the place to work out problems of this type, but, your response to Dawn seemed as accusatory as any. Again, Dawn can speak for herself and, I might add, she usually does a good job of addressing all issues. I just thought your post was a bit too polyanna-ish.

treufreund
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:01 PM
persond,

I think you make excellent points, but frankly I have heard your p.o.v many many times. Does that mean it's less true? No. What you have to say is valid and valuable but what is missing in America in the discussion on race is the willingness of WHITES to be HONEST about their feelings and experiences. I was being honest about my feelings which is something that very few whites have the balls to do these days. They fear being called a "racist". Racist has such a negative connotation and that is a sign of just how far we've come. Yes we will NEVER be perfect. I really don't fear that label anymore and I WILL NEVER EVER BUY INTO SOMEBODY TELLING ME THAT I DON'T KNOW MY INNERMOST FEELINGS. I know when I am irritated by racialist behaviour and I let people know. ( and yes that includes whites who talk or act racist.)

About Serena- I don't feel that it's really incumbent on Serena to be nice but respectful yes just like it is with any other player. Daniela has been a model of respect at such a young age. martina certainly wasn't when she was younger but she's much more mature now. anyway the tennis player issues are only minor for me in this world. :D

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:18 PM
Treufreund, I perfectly understand where you are coming from.

I root for players based on their game, my favourites have included slovakians, Belgians, Argentinians, Americans, Australians, Swedish. Whites, Blacks, sorry, no asian players has still appealed to me.

I perfectly understand what you talk about racism. Racism exists, no doubts about it, black people suffer it, no doubts about it, it should stop, of course it should.

What some (and I hope this time people read the some) people don't understand is that racism is only a particular form of oppression, it's a way a minority (in this case blacks) is oppressed by a more powerful majority (whites).

but it's not the only way, not even the worst. You talked about gays, that's one case, but the point is not that white oppress blacks because of the colour of their skin, what happened in the United States was that whites were (and are) more powerful and they subjugated others. The same happened with native americans for example.

That's wrong, very wrong for sure, but to think that blacks, or native americans are the only oppressed people, or that they are totally innocent is naive. Sadly, everywhere in the world, at any time in history there have been groups of people oppressing other people.

The first slaves taken to Europe and America by europeans, were sold to them by ... blacks.

What about the massacres of blacks, by blacks in Africa? take Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Nigeria, Biafra, Sudan.

What about Zimbabwe where blacks are killing whites? and please, I hope nobody comes to say that's the whites fault for what they did before, or that the European colonialism caused all problems in Africa, those massive killings and slavery occurred well before the Europeans put a foot in Africa.

Native Americans have also oppressed other Native Americans just because they were more powerful, the Aztecas, the Incas. The spaniards that destroyed the Azteca empire were helped by other tribes that hated the Aztecas because of their oppression.

In a world, we are all human beings, and oppression isn't a fault of a certain etchnic group, whoever is in power seems to do it, it's sad, but it's the way human beings are.

Of course, for black people living in America, their problem and their discrimination seem more important than the problems others are having, or have had elsewhere in the world, and that is understandable.

Racism is respulsive, discrimination is repulsive, and hatred is repulsive, they are only different aspect of the same thing, and it works both ways.

I have heard many times they say we like some black people like Zina Garrison or Arthur Ashe because they were nice, the way white people expected them to be, while we don't like Venus and Serena because they don't behave as we expect.

Excuse me??? Am I a racist because I like a black person being nice?, in fact I like all people who are nice and I dislike those who aren't. I dont' see how it's a sin to like someone becacuse that person is nice. In fact, if according to some black people are NOT supposed to be nice, then I certainly can't like them. Being nice isn't something to be ashamed of, but proud of. Arthur Ashe was one of the most wonderful persons that stepped on a tennis court, and should he be villified because he was nice? what did he need to do to be "accepted"? kill people, spit on their faces?

If that's the way some people want to solve problems, then no reconciliation, and not live in common is possible. Obviously, as a white person, I won't accept someone that insults me, wants to hurt me for the only reason that I am white.

I don't pretend to know the black people history in the US or what they have experienced and still experience in their lives, but I do understand human nature and we are all human beings, things are not black and white (and this is not referred to skin colours for those who couldnt' get it), there are greys, not all bads are completely evil and not all goods are saints, there is a middle point and the earlier people, from all races, religions or sexual preferences undertand it, the earlier the world can become a better place to live. Nobody is totally innocent, nobody is totally guilty.

saki
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:26 PM
Self-analysis is needed from both whites and blacks.

Treufriend is quite right in that many black people have feelings of anger towards whites and that this is a form of racism.

On the other hand, there are, as persond pointed out, elements of racism in what Treufriend was saying. The implication was that black tennis players should show "respect" which is not something that is expected in the same way from white tennis players. There is definitely more of a reaction when Venus or Serena is openly ambitious than when Martina or Lindsay is.

There is nothing wrong with white people expressing their views and sharing their experiences the way that Treufriend has done, but all people should be aware of what they are actually saying. Because it's very easy to have attitudes but hide them.

Fingon said: "Excuse me??? Am I a racist because I like a black person being nice?, in fact I like all people who are nice and I dislike those who aren't. I dont' see how it's a sin to like someone becacuse that person is nice. In fact, if according to some black people are NOT supposed to be nice, then I certainly can't like them. Being nice isn't something to be ashamed of, but proud of. Arthur Ashe was one of the most wonderful persons that stepped on a tennis court, and should he be villified because he was nice? what did he need to do to be "accepted"? kill people, spit on their faces? "

Yes and no. Of course you're going to like nice people and not like nasty people. But there are the people in the middle whom some would call "confident" and some would call "arrogant" and I think that there is (from some people at least) a tendency for a black tennis player to be labelled "arrogant" where a white one might have been merely "confident".

vw43
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:33 PM
This has so turned into a non-tennis thread...someone should take it there...:rolleyes:

Fingon
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:44 PM
Saki, in reality I never made any comment on not liking Venus or Serena because they aren't nice or liking Zina Garrison because she is.

The fact is that I liked Zina Garrison because I liked her game, and I don't like Venus and Serena because I don't like their games, it has nothing to do with personalities. I do know that some white players can be very nasty, Martina has been more than once, and Jennifer, it happens I like, or used to like Martina's game regardless of her personality and I don't like Jennifer because of her game, what she does on court is another matter.

But some people can't accept I can like Zina Garrison because I simply liked her game, in fact, I know very little about Zina as a person. In their minds, if I like a black player is because that palyers fits a profile. No matter how many times I say what my reasons are, they simply won't listen. In their little minds, if a white likes a black it's because that black is sumise and that's it, no further discussion.

They never thought that Venus and Serena have something else in common, besides being both black, they are both power players and I don't like that, and for that very same reason, I don't like Jennifer, Lindsay, or Monica, Monica is a special case, I don't like her game but I like her because I think she is a wonderful person and because everything she's gone through, she is a sentimental favourite and an exception,but I still don't like her game. but I think those simple facts are too much for a some people to assimilate.

victory1
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:44 PM
Williams fans ignore them, it's just sour grapes from a bunch of bitter people. If you guys wan't to complain about the crowd and the rankings that's YOUR perrogative! This is the free world, anyones opinion is just that, an opinion, and has no affect on your day to day well-being. You guys can still be happy for the Williams success, but still be able to discuss the behavior of the crowd, it was very significant during that match between Vee and Rena since every newspaper mention the episode (especially significant after the IW fiasco). It seems a bunch of people over the net needs to have approval of people they probably would never associates with in real life, that's the reason I think you guys are an awesome bunch, you guys are such individuals, not needing the approvals of a bunch of people that has no affect on Venus and Serena's performances. Who cares what a bunch of people in the internet thinks about you, they Are powerless, unless you make in issue out of it. I love these threads about the Williams fans, they have no affect on how I see myself as an individual or how my friends and associates sees me, basically they have no affect on my life. :D

treufreund
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:45 PM
I have to be picky about this... it was inferred that black players should be respectful (and not white). I did not imply that at all. All players need to be respectful. That is why I COMMEND Serena. When Martina came on she showed little respect neither did Steffi or Monica for that matter and none of them were all that liked early on in their careers. They all matured and now have many loyal fans. John McEnroe and Jimmy Connors were VIRULENTLY HATED by many fans because of what was perceived as lack of respect. Arthur Ashe was not hated because he was a gentleman. Zina Garrison was not hated.

Ty
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:46 PM
I think first of all i should say that 'Racist' is a word that is used to easily. People of different origin who dont like someone of a different origin, whatever the reason is seen as a racist, and thats not right.

Both Black people and White people can be very racist, but alot of people are to affraid to share there views or even talk about race, as they may be seen as racist. That is the sad thing. People should be able to share with out being branded racist. I know that some people are truely racist, and they deserve what they get, but not everyone is.

Also, and this is noway pointing the finger at anyone of the board, but some black and white people are as bad as each other, both having bad attitudes towards each other.

We as the people of this world need to be more open minded.

:) :)

saki
Apr 1st, 2002, 07:54 PM
Fingon, I wasn't trying to get at you. I have a lot of sympathy with your attitude. For me, as for you, tennis is a sport. I like watching certain types of players (finesse) better than others so I support them regardless of their personalities.

Rocketta
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:09 PM
This thread is still going on....:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I was tempted to get involved again but thought better of it. :wavey:

Big Fat Pink Elephant
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:15 PM
same here Rocketta :wavey: