PDA

View Full Version : Another no. 1 who can not consistently beat VENUS and SERENA?


TeeRexx
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:43 PM
Capriati is continuing a tradition that seems to have started almost three years ago.
Being ranked no. 1 and losing on a regular basis to VENUS and SERENA WILLIAMS.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020330/capt.1017518959nasdaq_100_open_fkb110.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020329/capt.1017435523nasdaq_100_open_fkb103.jpg

First Hingis, then Davenport and now Capriati.

It has got to be tough for these players to feel comfortable calling themselves No. 1 when there are two players beating them, who many consider the top two players on the tour.

Hopefully, the Williams will get the official #1 and 2 rankings that will put the tour in the proper perspective.

GoDominiqu
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:45 PM
If Jennifer had played Venus here she would have trounced her 6-2 6-2 just like Serena.

Not Jennifer's fault that Venus is playing too badly to reach the final ...

AjdeNate!
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:48 PM
Jen | Serena head to head is 4:4, right?

Berlin_Calling
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:49 PM
Teerex, what your saying is true BUT Venus and Serena are two different players. There are players that can beat Venus often and some that can sometimes beat Serena. What your saying is just like saying that Venus was not a good number 1 because she can't beat Martina consistently but she can defeat other players like Davenport consistently. Even world #1's have their share of losses to top players. Even Steffi Graf had some trouble with Coetzer when They played, but that doesn't mean that Steffi (Stefanie) didn't deserve to be #1. In a way, your going against your own word.;)

cheeky
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:49 PM
i very much doubt that!!!!
i'm just happy that Serena was able to win and keep this trophy in the family

RockSteady
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:49 PM
When Hingis was #1 on tour, she always beat the Williams sisters. She's 0-2 against Serena when she hasn't been #1. So that would make her 10-7 against Venus + 6-5 against Serena at #1 for a winning record total of 16-12.

And Venus and Serena will never be #1 & 2, because when they start to play more tournaments in a row, they get tired physically and mentally, as Venus has proven so far this year. It is very easy to come into a tournament fresh as a daisy and beat players like Martina and Monica who just reached their 5th final in 5 weeks in 5 different countries. I'd like to see either sister do that and still win the tournaments they do.

I understand, TeeRexx, that you live off both of these two players and spend hours at a time, every day, reminding us how wonderful they are, but would it hurt you to look at things from a different point of view? Or will you forever have those glasses with the Williams tint?

TeeRexx
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:50 PM
I think that VENUS' record against Cap is 4:0.
Unless, of course, they played a few matches in secret. :rolleyes:

TeeRexx
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:55 PM
What I wrote:
--------------
Capriati is continuing a tradition that seems to have started almost three years ago.
--------------

:rolleyes:

AjdeNate!
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:57 PM
True, Venus did sometimes beat herself when she was #1.... And NEVER EVER EVER beat Serena then....
J/K :)

GoDominiqu
Mar 30th, 2002, 09:59 PM
And why did you mention Serena as well in the topic ?

Looking at Grand Slam results which are the most important after all, Jen leads Serena 2-0. Now she has lost, and on Serena's favourite surface. If she can beat Serena on clay and greass, I think she will be happy.
Same for the 0-4 against Venus. These matches were ALL on hard-courts, and I completely agree that Serena and Venus are the dominant players on hardcourts, no doubt about that.
Let them play Jennifer on clay and we will see.

And it's not fair to talk about Serena and Venus as if they were one person. They battled out who should be the one to challenge Jennifer and Serena won easily. But she beat Jennifer only by an inch. So what does that tell ? Jennifer would have beaten Venus here.

RockSteady
Mar 30th, 2002, 10:00 PM
I'm amazed how easy you find it to chop off half of the matches Hingis plays against them, just so the record is in the Williams favor. A losing record is a losing record, any way you look at it.

Inspired by you, my next thread:

STEFFI HASN'T BEATEN MARTINA IN FOUR YEARS!

(Insert obnoxious pictures)
(Insert paragraphs on how Steffi has lost her touch)
(Insert annoying smiley faces)
(Insult anyone that disagrees with me)

babsi
Mar 30th, 2002, 10:04 PM
Since Jen became #1 in October 2001 she has played:

Venus 0 times
Serena 2 times and lost

I think that the title is VERY misleading:)

TeeRexx
Mar 30th, 2002, 10:12 PM
How true, Babsi!

To GoDom:
---------
But she beat Jennifer only by an inch. So what does that tell ?
--------

We are playing tennis, not horse shoes or hand grenades. :p

venusfan
Mar 30th, 2002, 10:16 PM
OKAY... Venus,Capriati and Serena are the top 3 players in the world. no offense Hingis fans..

Cant wait to see the final today

Williams Rulez
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:20 AM
Rocksteady, get your facts right if you wanna post anything...

Martina-Venus: 10-8
Martina-Serena: 6-7

Overall: 16-15

But... Serena won last 3 meetings, Venus won last 5 of 7 meetings.

So you can see the trend ... ;)

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:32 AM
I can give the reason why so many people manipulate and preach this V and S are "gods" crap. I guarantee that Tee Rex and the little caravan would not be screaming V and S if they were white. If they were white, then Alexandra Stevenson would be the besses in the whole world Miss Seely. It is all a matter of color. And that's a fact.

TeeRexx
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:39 AM
quote from Shane54:
-------------
I can give the reason why so many people manipulate and preach this V and S are "gods" crap. I guarantee that Tee Rex and the little caravan would not be screaming V and S if they were white. If they were white, then Alexandra Stevenson would be the besses in the whole world Miss Seely. It is all a matter of color. And that's a fact
------------

This poor fool has apparently lost his little, bigotted, so-called mind. :fiery:

Shane54
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:42 AM
:sad: Please please don't say that your opinion is so important to me!!! LMAO:sad:

Rubylips
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:46 AM
Can"t we all get along.PLEASE, JUST ONE TIME.:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: :)

Oizo
Mar 31st, 2002, 01:58 AM
The clay season is coming and I wonder who will dominate it :rolleyes: ...LMAO! :cool:

moby
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Williams_Rulez
Rocksteady, get your facts right if you wanna post anything...

Martina-Venus: 10-8
Martina-Serena: 6-7

Overall: 16-15

But... Serena won last 3 meetings, Venus won last 5 of 7 meetings.

So you can see the trend ... ;)


dont want to accuse you of being reading impaired, cause i dont believe you are. but you're a slow reader and you were probably trying to read this in a rush...

Rocksteady said this "When Hingis was #1 on tour, she always beat the Williams sisters. She's 0-2 against Serena when she hasn't been #1. So that would make her 10-7 against Venus + 6-5 against Serena at #1 for a winning record total of 16-12."

after all TR was talking about no.1s right? marti certainly wasnt no. 1 when serena beat her in the last two meetings...

talking about trends...

marti leads 3-1
serena wins 3 straight meetings
martina wins 3 straight meetings
serena wins 3 straight meetings

it's gonna be marti's turn soon ;)

Williams Rulez
Apr 1st, 2002, 12:34 PM
Point accepted... I'm always in a rush :)

vw43
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:02 PM
I disagree TeeRexx-

Capriati is not losing on a regular basis to Serena. You know the stats as well as I do.

Saturday's match was a fine one. Both players played well and the match could have gone either way, which is obvious to anyone who watched it.

I give credit to Serena. She looked great and played a great match. She really is becoming more consistent. Her serve looked good, she kept her unforced errors somewhat under control (for Serena). I thought it was good stuff she put out there.

Jen also put out good stuff and came up a tad short. Nothing to be ashamed of.

There are ways to congratulate your faves without insulting their opponents, Tee. Too bad you haven't enough class to realize it.

Also, last time I looked, Jen looked more than comfortable with her number one status...almost as good as she looked holding up the Australian Open trophy...





:kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:23 PM
The LAdy in Ferrari Red!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jennifer Capriati needs no other introduction than that of the number one player!!!!!!!!!! Post it when one of the Williams gets there..............

So smug...........:fiery:

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by vw43
I disagree TeeRexx-

Capriati is not losing on a regular basis to Serena. You know the stats as well as I do.

Saturday's match was a fine one. Both players played well and the match could have gone either way, which is obvious to anyone who watched it.

I give credit to Serena. She looked great and played a great match. She really is becoming more consistent. Her serve looked good, she kept her unforced errors somewhat under control (for Serena). I thought it was good stuff she put out there.

Jen also put out good stuff and came up a tad short. Nothing to be ashamed of.

There are ways to congratulate your faves without insulting their opponents, Tee. Too bad you haven't enough class to realize it.

Also, last time I looked, Jen looked more than comfortable with her number one status...almost as good as she looked holding up the Australian Open trophy...


Thank you!!!!!!!!!

Sweeter than any sung, my songs that found no tongue
Nobler than any act,Mywish that failed to act
Others shall sing the song, Others shall right the wrong
To finish what I begin
And all I fail of win


:kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

maccardel
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:00 PM
Save this thread and return to it after roland garros and then USopen and then the year end championships...I think we will see who was right and who was wrong.

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:18 PM
:drool: drool: drool: drool: drool: drool: drool: drool: drool:

the best is yet to come

Infiniti2001
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:26 PM
Go Venus!!!!

Cybelle Darkholme
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:30 PM
why make a thread like this? There is no need to gloat. Last year when capriati trounced babygirl three times in a row, I was not a happy camper. But jen earned those matches, she was the stronger player mentally and toughed it out. I didn't want to hear any negative mess about serena then and im sure neither did you. Now that the shoe is on the other foot why not show a little class? No need to sink so low like a bottom feeder.

You're made of better stuff than this post tee.:D

Volcana
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:31 PM
Just in case you're bored, and want to see the numbers you're arguing about. Most of the generalizations in this thread are both true and false.

Jenn vs Serena

ALL of Serena vs Jenn have occurred in the past three years.

1999 Berlin-------- Clay (O) 32 Serena WILLIAMS 6-7 3-6
2000 Miami--------- Hard (O) 16 Jennifer CAPRIATI 7-6(2) 1-6 6-3
2001 Miami--------- Hard (O) QF Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-1 7-6(5)
2001 Roland Garros- Clay (O) QF Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-2 5-7 6-2
2001 Wimbledon----- Gras (O) QF Jennifer CAPRIATI 6-7(4) 7-5 6-3
2001 Toronto------- Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 7-6(7) 3-6
2002 Scottsdale---- Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 2-6 6-4 4-6
2002 Miami--------- Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 7-5, 7-6

* Obviously, losing the last three DOES constitute 'losing on a regular basis'. So what Tee say is true. But go back two more months, and Jenn wins.

* 'Serena's a better hard court player. Jenn's a better clay better.' True. record-wise. But Serena's beat her on clay. Jenn's beat Serena on hard courts and on GRASS.

Look closely. very match they've played has either gone 3 sets, or has a tie-breaker in it. Every single one. They are very closely matched players, and always have been. Seren ahs had the edge for the past nine months or so. But it isn't a big edge.

Jenn vs Venus

1997 Miami--------- Hard (O) 64 Venus WILLIAMS 6-7 6-3 2-6 - Not in last three years
2001 Miami--------- Hard (O) FR Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 1-6 6-7(4)
2001 New Haven----- Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7(1)
2001 U.S. Open----- Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 2-6

Venus is my favorite player. But the last three matches DID take place on Venus's courts, at Venus best times of year. I'dlike to see them play on clay as well.

Martina vs Serena - This has been streaky

1998 Miami--------- Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 1-6 7-6
1998 Manhattan Bch- Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-1 These two not in last three years

1999 Miami--------- Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 6-7
1999 Rome---------- Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-2

1999 Manhattan Bch- Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 5-7
1999 US Open------- Hard (O) FR Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7
2000 Los Angeles--- Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 6-4 2-6 3-6

2000 Toronto------- Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 0-6 6-3 3-0 Retired
2001 Sydney-------- Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-5
2001 Australian---- Hard (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-2 3-6 8-6

2001 U.S. Open----- Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 3-6 2-6
2002 Scottsdale---- Hard (O) SF Serena WILLIAMS 1-6 6-3 4-6
2002 Miami--------- Hard (O) QF Serena WILLIAMS 4-6 0-6

You can count those first two matches if you want. It's irrelevant. It's not that Serena has won the last three. It's that two of them haven't been close. Jenn could have won all three of her most recent losses to Serena. Martina had a chance at Scottsdale. She had NO chance at Miami or at the US last year. Martina hasn't beat Serena easily since Rome '99.


Martina vs Venus - It's almost always good

Half of their career matches are before the past 3 years. So that 'past 3 years' actaully makes a difference in this case.


1997 Key Biscayne-- Hard (O) 32 Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-2
1997 San Diego----- Hard (O) 16 Martina HINGIS 6-2 6-1
1997 US Open------- Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-0 6-4
1998 Sydney-------- Hard (O) 16 Venus WILLIAMS 6-3 4-6 5-7
1998 Indian Wells-- Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-0 7-6
1998 Key Biscayne-- Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-5 2-6
1998 Rome---------- Clay (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-3 2-6 6-3
1998 Roland Garros- Clay (O) QF Martina HINGIS 6-3 6-4

Head to Head 6-2

1999 Rome---------- Clay (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 4-6 6-1 4-6
1999 San Diego----- Hard (O) FR Martina HINGIS 6-4 6-0
1999 US Open------- Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 4-6 6-3
1999 Grand Slam Cup Hard (I) SF Venus WILLIAMS 2-6 7-6 7-9
1999 Zurich-------- Hard (I) FR Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 4-6
1999 Tour Champs--- Carp (I) SF Martina HINGIS 6-4 7-6

Head to Head 9-5

2000 Wimbledon----- Gras (O) QF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-4 4-6
2000 U.S. Open----- Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 6-4 3-6 5-7
2001 Australian---- Hard (O) SF Martina HINGIS 6-1 6-1
2001 Miami--------- Hard (O) SF Venus WILLIAMS 3-6 6-7(6)

Head to Head 10-8

Martina did most of the early winning, 1999 was the transitional year, Now Venus doess most of the winning.

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:33 PM
very well said:rolleyes:

vw43
Apr 1st, 2002, 03:42 PM
* Obviously, losing the last three DOES constitute 'losing on a regular basis'. So what Tee say is true. - Volcana


I disagree. Their head to head play has occured within the last 3 years. The overall score is 4-4. I just don't see how those statistics show that Jennifer is losing on a regular basis. Just my opinion.

I do agree that they are both very closely matched players. I agree that on any given day either could win.

and thank you cybell...for also stating that you don't have to gloat to cheer. :)

TeeRexx
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:02 PM
Good idea, Macardel.

Venus and Serena of 2002 are not the Venus and Serena of 1998.

How one can think that player A is better than player B even though player B has defeated player A every single time that they have played is beyond me.

Yes, I will be very interested in seeing Hingis take 3 straight from Serena and/or Venus this year, but i won't hold my breath waiting.

vw43
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:25 PM
According to TeeRexx's theory:

Barbara Schwartz
Magdalena Grzylowska
Veronika Martinez
Rita Kuti-Kus
and
Sonya Jeyasielan

are better players than Venus Williams...:rolleyes:

If we are going to focus on head to head then...

Arantxa and Martina Hingis must be better players than Serena Williams..and Davenport actually leads in head to head over Venus...

blah, blah, blah...bullshit.

Head to head does not determine the better player.

:rolleyes:

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:28 PM
Thank You, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Living it up:bounce:

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

paigery
Apr 1st, 2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by vw43
According to TeeRexx's theory:

Barbara Schwartz
Magdalena Grzylowska
Veronika Martinez
Rita Kuti-Kus
and
Sonya Jeyasielan

are better players than Venus Williams...:rolleyes:

If we are going to focus on head to head then...

Arantxa and Martina Hingis must be better players than Serena Williams..and Davenport actually leads in head to head over Venus...

blah, blah, blah...bullshit.

Head to head does not determine the better player.

:rolleyes:

so true!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TeeRexx
Apr 2nd, 2002, 05:19 AM
----------
It doesn't matter to me that Jen has not beat Venus in their 4 meetings because by watching those meetings, I know Jen can beat Venus. It is not like Venus is "dominating" or beating Jen easily.
---------

That was funny! ;) :p

Robbie.
Apr 2nd, 2002, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by babsi
Since Jen became #1 in October 2001 she has played:

Venus 0 times
Serena 2 times and lost

I think that the title is VERY misleading:)

Yes she has lost to Serena two times since being #1 and those losses have been very close and have been discussed at length.

That she hasn't played Venus since claiming #1 is almost solely Venus' fault and should not detract whatsoever from Jennifer's rating as the best player in the world. Venus didn't turn up in sydney where Jenn lost in the first round, then was subsequently not good enough to reach the AO final where she was seeded to meet Jenn and jenn held her end of the bargain (then went on to win). Venus chose to play a few dodgy, weak tournaments earlier in the year instead of preparing for one of the biggest hardcourt events in Scottsdale, where Jenn again made the final. Then at Key Biscayne she again lost before she had the chance to play Jenn who was waiting for her in the final. See the pattern...Jenn is getting to finals and Venus is not, Venus has had ample oppurtunity to play Jenn this year and has not been good enough. Simple.

monicain
Apr 2nd, 2002, 06:55 AM
good point, tennisaddict.

Indeed I think there is no domination by the #1 over all other players like the way it was. Tennis2002 has too strong field, too many excellent opponents. Martina cannot beat Vee & Rena as #1 ? no shame. GS starving is much more embarassed. Venus herself cannot even to hold the #1 ranking, maybe she has not enough ability to play and win many tournaments the way Martina and Jenn did. She just choose some, and win it , and rest, and then choose some and so.Rena even worst,win and broken herself into injured--not gonna clinch #1 ,no way, if she'll stay that way

If you leveled up the #1 standard to that high,teerex,Veenus nor Martina isn't good enough for #1. Only Steffi and Monica in 90s.

conchita
Apr 2nd, 2002, 07:01 AM
To be number one, you have to be good on ALL surfaces so i believe that the title is very misleading too! Capriati isn't too good on all surfaces, such as carpet, and Venus and Serena cannot play on clay. hence, their record last year at the French Open. As a result, this only leaves a few players left to take that number 1 position:

1. Martina Hingis (has reached all four grand slam finals and her titles speak for themselves!)

2. Jelena Dokic and Kim Clijsters (both had wins, especially dokic, on all different surfaces).

3. Conchita Martinez (won heaps of titles including wimbledon and many clay tournaments).

TeeRexx
Apr 2nd, 2002, 07:38 AM
----------
"Venus and Serena cannot play on clay"
-----------

Too funny. ;) :wavey:

the_ancyent_marinere
Apr 2nd, 2002, 08:40 AM
:bored to death:

conchita
Apr 2nd, 2002, 09:14 AM
And why is that funny? Venus lost in the 3rd round at the German Open to Henin and the 1st round of the French Open in 2001 to Schett and Serena only entered one clay tournament to my knowledge last year and she only reached the quarters- a poor effort coz if francesca schiavone can make the quarters in the french, ne1 can!

In 2000, Venus lost to Dokic in the 3rd round once again, this time to Dokic in straight sets (she probably claimed tendonitis) and lost to arantxa in the quarters in the French-enough said! Serena also lost at the BL Champs in 2000 when she was down 5-2 in the 3rd against Paola Suarez and she retired-tendonitis??

I think that i have made my point very clear!

Volcana
Apr 2nd, 2002, 12:13 PM
Conchita - It's time to either get used to the Williams sisters, or become a fan of women's golf. You don't have to like them, but the arguement that Venus couldn't play on clay was settled last year when she won Hamburg.

Venus Williams 2001 Hamburg Champion

Surface: Clay

32 B BYE
16 W Gala LEON-GARCIA (ESP) 6-1 6-2
QF W Silvia FARINA-ELIA (ITA) 6-1 6-1
SF W Jelena DOKIC (YUG) 6-3 6-1
FR W Meghann SHAUGHNESSY (USA) 6-3 6-0

Gee, I guess Gala, Silivia, Jelena and Meghann can't play on clay either!

As for Serena only playing one clay tournament in 2001 and only getting to the 16's, you would have to be a fool to use that as a standard of proof. MONICA SELES played one clay tournament last year, and only made the 16's. Are you gonna argue SHE can't play on clay? I didn't think so.

conchita
Apr 3rd, 2002, 05:59 AM
indeed i will argue that monica seles cannot play on clay either. clay is really slow and monica isn't really fit these days. Also, these days, who couldn't beat farina elia and shaughnessy???? Dokic was probably just having a crappy day but at least she doesn't retire like some people...................

TeeRexx
Apr 3rd, 2002, 10:51 AM
A good post with an honest perspective.

veryborednow
Apr 3rd, 2002, 10:53 AM
maybe when they say the williams sisters can't play on clay, it's their screwed up way of saying they are less dominant on clay...?

I dunno - don't shout at me, im tired :p

TeeRexx
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:03 AM
VBN - It is also their way of indicating how scared that they are of the Williams winning at RG as well.

jomar
Apr 3rd, 2002, 11:04 AM
that remains to be seen....jaz let them realize it first.:o :D :rolleyes: :p