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Veritas
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:56 PM
US forces shoot freed Italian hostage
8:13 AM March 5

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has been freed by her captors in Iraq but US forces mistakenly opened fire on the convoy taking her to safety, wounding her and killing an Italian secret service agent.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said he had immediately summoned the US ambassador, declaring someone had to take responsibility for US soldiers opening fire.

The US military has confirmed its forces fired on and wounded Ms Sgrena and killed a fellow passenger when their car sped up near a checkpoint on the road to Baghdad airport.

"At approximately 8:55pm [local time] coalition forces ... fired on a vehicle approaching a checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed," Lieutenant Colonel Mike Caldwell said, reading an official statement.

"The recently freed Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was an occupant in the vehicle and was apparently injured.

"The details are not clear at this point. Apparently, a second person in the automobile was killed.

"Ms Sgrena is being treated by coalition medical personnel. The incident is under investigation."

Mr Berlusconi told a news conference the agent was shot dead at a US checkpoint and that Ms Sgrena had been wounded in the shoulder.

Ms Sgrena, 57, a correspondent for the Rome-based Communist newspaper Il Manifesto, was kidnapped on February 4.

The paper's editor, Gabriele Polo, said her release had been ruined by the shooting.

"This news, which should have be a moment of celebration, has been ruined by this fire fight," he told Sky Italia television, struggling to fight back tears.

"An Italian agent has been killed by an American bullet. A tragic demonstration which we never wanted that everything that's happening in Iraq is completely senseless and mad."

After Ms Sgrena's kidnap, insurgents released a video of her sobbing and wringing her hands as she pleaded for Italian troops to leave Iraq.

In a new video aired on Al Jazeera television on Friday, Ms Sgrena was shown wearing a black dress and sitting in front of a table with a plate of fruit.

Al Jazeera said that on the tape, Ms Sgrena thanked her captors for treating her well.

-Reuters

Source: Reuters

How incompetent can the so-called 'almighty' American military be? I feel terrible for the Italian secret agent and the journalist. The secret agent was just doing his job by rescuing an innocent Italian civilian and what does he get for his effort? A bullet sent straight through his body. And the journalist's moment of relief from having been saved from imminent decapitation was completely ruined by those very same idiots.

Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 4th, 2005, 09:12 PM
How incompetent can the so-called 'almighty' American military be? I feel terrible for the Italian secret agent and the journalist. The secret agent was just doing his job by rescuing an innocent Italian civilian and what does he get for his effort? A bullet sent straight through his body. And the journalist's moment of relief from having been saved from imminent decapitation was completely ruined by those very same idiots.

Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

That really is a torrent of simplistic left-wing gargage.

Sweeping aside your follow-the-crowd anti-Americanism - now that Saddam has been toppled, who do you actually want to win in Iraq?

A/ The imperfect US-led coalition fighting for Iraqi democracy, who often MISTAKENLY kill innocent people while trying to subdue the ultra-violent Sunni insurgency.

or

B/ The assorted Baathists & Islamofascist terrorists who are INTENTIONALLY slaughtering innocent Iraqis & foreigners, who want to restore Baathist/Islamist tyranny to Iraq.

Veegeta
Mar 4th, 2005, 09:13 PM
You're welcome.

Veritas
Mar 4th, 2005, 09:18 PM
That really is a torrent of simplistic left-wing gargage.

Sweeping aside your follow-the-crowd anti-Americanism - now that Saddam has been toppled, who do you actually want to win in Iraq?

A/ The imperfect US-led coalition fighting for Iraqi democracy, who often MISTAKENLY kill innocent people while trying to subdue the ultra-violent Sunni insurgency.

or

B/ The assorted Baathists & Islamofascist terrorists who are INTENTIONALLY slaughtering innocent Iraqis & foreigners, who want to restore Baathist/Islamist tyranny to Iraq.

:rolleyes:

I think you must either be blind or stupid. I had always supported the gist behind the U.S. invasion of Iraq - ridding the country from being internally bled by Saddam and his administration.

However, this thread was about the U.S. soldiers killing and injuring innocent people when their job is to protect them, not another debate about whether the U.S. should've invaded Iraq or not.

Seles_Beckham
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:08 PM
:sad: :sad: :rolleyes:

Mrs. Peel
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:12 PM
This might provide more insight into the incident..YOu make it seem that they shot at them reasonless?


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/iraq.main/index.html

Sally Struthers
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:18 PM
eh. Shit happens

Quedijo
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:24 PM
that's horrible, how dare the US military shoot at a high speeding vehicle, zooming at a check point on a war zone. the stupidity amazes me.

CC
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:32 PM
How incompetent can the so-called 'almighty' American military be? I feel terrible for the Italian secret agent and the journalist. The secret agent was just doing his job by rescuing an innocent Italian civilian and what does he get for his effort? A bullet sent straight through his body. And the journalist's moment of relief from having been saved from imminent decapitation was completely ruined by those very same idiots.

Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

Get over yourself. It's obvious your dislike for America makes you completely irrational. First of all, while it is sad when people are kidnapped or killed, they knew they would be putting themselves in danger by going to a country at war or during a period of daily, violent insurgent acts. Secondly, the car the Italians were traveling in was obviously mistaken as one of these possible attacks. If the story is as reported, I don't blame the soldiers for shooting. Kill them before they kill you - makes sense to me.

From the CNN page:

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)
U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

Wigglytuff
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:54 PM
i feel so sorry for both families.

That really is a torrent of simplistic left-wing gargage.

Sweeping aside your follow-the-crowd anti-Americanism - now that Saddam has been toppled, who do you actually want to win in Iraq?

A/ The imperfect US-led coalition fighting for Iraqi democracy, who often MISTAKENLY kill innocent people while trying to subdue the ultra-violent Sunni insurgency.

or

B/ The assorted Baathists & Islamofascist terrorists who are INTENTIONALLY slaughtering innocent Iraqis & foreigners, who want to restore Baathist/Islamist tyranny to Iraq.

1-i could be wrong, but if remember correctly, the war in iraq was about some WMDs. the reasons for going to this war were completely without merit, now if some good comes out of it, thats grand, but saying that the USA went there to free the iraqis is horse shit.

2-are you saying that sending 1,500 americans to die in iraq and killing tens of thousands of iraqis is not "ultra-violent"?

3-there is plenty of f-up killings going on in china and parts of africa. much of it would make what you call "B" look like a night in paris!! why go to iraq and not to where the US would be needed most? what does iraq have that china and parts of africa does not?

4-its NEVER an either or, the US could go to Iraq "save" the iraq people and NOT kill the innocent, and NOT fuck shit up. (as iraq is pretty fucked right now)

Wigglytuff
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:55 PM
Get over yourself. It's obvious your dislike for America makes you completely irrational. First of all, while it is sad when people are kidnapped or killed, they knew they would be putting themselves in danger by going to a country at war or during a period of daily, violent insurgent acts. Secondly, the car the Italians were traveling in was obviously mistaken as one of these possible attacks. If the story is as reported, I don't blame the soldiers for shooting. Kill them before they kill you - makes sense to me.

From the CNN page:

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)
U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

HI!

can you post the entire article or a link to it?

Wigglytuff
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:57 PM
How incompetent can the so-called 'almighty' American military be? I feel terrible for the Italian secret agent and the journalist. The secret agent was just doing his job by rescuing an innocent Italian civilian and what does he get for his effort? A bullet sent straight through his body. And the journalist's moment of relief from having been saved from imminent decapitation was completely ruined by those very same idiots.

Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

dude, there arent any real details about what actually happened? (which is not to say that the US was justified in this incident, just that there aint no details)

Josh B.
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:58 PM
We have to understand what these guys are dealing with in this war, extreme pressure, they face death, loss of crew and friends.

Dont get me wrong, i think the death of the Italian was an appauling mistake!!

But we need to also understand that the person who shot the Italian, has also secured, protected and helped us out by securing cities, helping save innocent people and is helping us win this war!

Tratree
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:08 PM
I'm sorry, but if a car was barreling towards my checkpoint and didn't stop with warnings and there had been countless suicide bombers killing my buddies in the same manner, I would have fired the shots too. The driver could have stopped and avoided the whole matter or the Italians could have gotten on the horn with the US and told them this car would be coming through. That said, I do really feel for the family of the guy killed and the others that were injured. No matter how it starts, war sucks and there are always unfortunate accidents like this.

Veegeta
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

Go to the nearest Embassy, which will be Canberra, Melbourne, Perth or Sydney and barge your way past barriers, gates and law enforcement and thank the U.S. Marine personally for the US. Military for being incompetent. He will act very kindly to your gratitude.

Veritas
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Just watched the news:

Apparently, it was also claimed that the Italian driver did honk his horn before approaching the checkpoint, trying to attract the military's attention. I guess it was the only thing he could do, since he probably didn't have a mobile on him.

Get over yourself. It's obvious your dislike for America makes you completely irrational.

Since when have I indicated that I "dislike" America?

Didn't I say that I "supported" America's decision to rid Iraq of Saddam?

It seems as you are also irrational for jumping to conclusions as well.

CC
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:29 PM
This might provide more insight into the incident..YOu make it seem that they shot at them reasonless?


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/iraq.main/index.html

Jiggly, I got it from this page Mrs. Peel posted.

CC
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Just watched the news:

Apparently, it was also claimed that the Italian driver did honk his horn before approaching the checkpoint, trying to attract the military's attention. I guess it was the only thing he could do, since he probably didn't have a mobile on him.



Since when have I indicated that I "dislike" America?

Didn't I say that I "supported" America's decision to rid Iraq of Saddam?

It seems as you are also irrational for jumping to conclusions as well.

I didn't jump to conclusions, I just read your first post.

Veritas
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:34 PM
I didn't jump to conclusions, I just read your first post.

Yeah, and I'm sure you noticed I specifically said "American military".

So I guess criticising American soldiers automatically indicates my supposed "dislike" for America?

CC
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Yeah, and I'm sure you noticed I specifically said "American military".

So I guess criticising American soldiers automatically indicates my supposed "dislike" for America?

I was referring to the way you leapt at the opportunity to disparage the soldiers in a very biased way even without all the facts. You used this one incident to paint the "almighty American military" with a giant brush of incompetency.

It's not only what you say, it has a lot to do with your tone.

Veritas
Mar 5th, 2005, 12:04 AM
I was referring to the way you leapt at the opportunity to disparage the soldiers in a very biased way even without all the facts.

Fair enough.

You used this one incident to paint the "almighty American military" with a giant brush of incompetency.

Point taken.

It's not only what you say, it has a lot to do with your tone.

This is where I will draw the line.

You accused me of being "irrational" because of my supposed "dislike for America".

Get over yourself. It's obvious your dislike for America makes you completely irrational.

What you're saying is that I somehow "dislike" everything about the U.S. simply because I happened to criticise the U.S. military for having killed two innocent people. And you accused me of that despite my support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Ravsieg
Mar 5th, 2005, 12:12 AM
The same as from beginning... why did the American troops bother going? There is the violent part of Iraqi people there already. After all, they all share the idea of mass killing innocents. I think they more like support Saddam, but try to be cool by saying they hate him.

CC
Mar 5th, 2005, 12:21 AM
Fair enough.



Point taken.



This is where I will draw the line.

You accused me of being "irrational" because of my supposed "dislike for America".



What you're saying is that I somehow "dislike" everything about the U.S. simply because I happened to criticise the U.S. military for having killed two innocent people. And you accused me of that despite my support for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Simply put, you reacted to the incident in a very emotional, partial way, and I reacted to your comments in a very defensive way.

P.S. Ones support or non-support of the invasion of Iraq does not automatically demonstrate whether or not one actually likes America. It could mean one dislikes Iraq or Saddam or Iraq's foreign policy or Iraq's domestic policy or people from the middle east or you're just fond of a good, juicy war.

Veegeta
Mar 5th, 2005, 12:23 AM
The same as from beginning... why did the American troops bother going? [/s]

How old are you?

Ravsieg
Mar 5th, 2005, 12:43 AM
I'm 17, but I hope you noticed I simplified all the political happenings on purpose to make it sound more sarcastic.

Justeenium
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:07 AM
How incompetent can the so-called 'almighty' American military be? I feel terrible for the Italian secret agent and the journalist. The secret agent was just doing his job by rescuing an innocent Italian civilian and what does he get for his effort? A bullet sent straight through his body. And the journalist's moment of relief from having been saved from imminent decapitation was completely ruined by those very same idiots.

Thank you U.S. military for again making a huge mockery out of your intelligence and presence in Iraq :fiery: :mad:

Thank you for making this thread so everyone can mock your lack of intelligence.

Halardfan
Mar 9th, 2005, 09:33 AM
It was an appalling incident.

Fox News's take on the incident, shows how "Fair and Balanced" they really are... :rolleyes:

Im used to the far-right rants coming out of the FNC, but this one was remarkable even by their rabid standards...


------------------------------
Fox News

Rush to JudgmentTuesday, March 08, 2005
By John Gibson



Giuliana Sgrena the Italian journalist hostage, is now saying that American troops shot at her car on purpose trying to kill her.
The White House says the claim is absurd.

In addition, let me point out some other absurdities:

First, Ms. Sgrena is from a communist newspaper called Il Manifesto. So how many of you think Il Manifesto sent her to Iraq to report on how well Iraq is doing after its first free election? None of you? What a smart bunch. Of course it didn't.

She is an ardent anti-American who was going to Iraq to do a hatchet job on the American effort there and — silly her — she didn't realize the Iraqi insurgent kidnapers didn't really care if she thought they were noble freedom fighters. They just wanted her sorry bones to ransom.

What's more, she now admits they treated her well. Gee, now, that's a surprise. When we all saw that tape of Ms. Sgrena begging for her life with her hands held in prayer — imagine a reporter for a communist paper praying — everybody thought things must really be rough. Now it turns out they told her what to say and how to say it and she acted her part.

Also, The Washington Times is reporting Monday that the $6 million ransom was not Italian government money, but personal funds of the media mogul Silvio Berlusconi — who just happens to be the prime minister.

So what do you think the chances are that Ms. Sgrena cooperated with her captors to squeeze some cash out of what she would regard as a capitalist pig, the media mogul and prime minister Mr. Berlusconi?

Think I'm stretching there?

In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

That's My Word.

--------------------

(...and Im disgusted with far-right peddlers of crap like him...)

le bon vivant
Mar 9th, 2005, 09:52 AM
What Iraq's checkpoints are like

By Annia Ciezadlo | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

Editor's note: On Friday, an Italian intelligence officer was killed and Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was wounded as their car approached a US military checkpoint in Baghdad. The US says the car was speeding, despite hand signals, flashing white lights, and warning shots from US forces. Ms. Sgrena says her car was not speeding and they did see any signals. This personal account, filed prior to the shooting, explains how confusing and risky checkpoints can be - from both sides. It's a common occurrence in Iraq: A car speeds toward an American checkpoint or foot patrol. They fire warning shots; the car keeps coming. Soldiers then shoot at the car. Sometimes the on-comer is a foiled suicide attacker (see story (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p10s01-woiq.html)), but other times, it's an unarmed family.

http://www.csmonitor.com/images/s.gif http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/csmimg/p10a.jpg http://www.csmonitor.com/images/s.gif http://www.csmonitor.com/images/s.gif BACK HOME: Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena arrived in Rome Saturday, injured after US troops fired on her car.
ALESSANDRA TARANTINO/AP
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As an American journalist here, I have been through many checkpoints and have come close to being shot at several times myself. I look vaguely Middle Eastern, which perhaps makes my checkpoint experience a little closer to that of the typical Iraqi. Here's what it's like.

You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint.

If it's confusing for me - and I'm an American - what is it like for Iraqis who don't speak English?

In situations like this, I've often had Iraqi drivers who step on the gas. It's a natural reaction: Angry soldiers are screaming at you in a language you don't understand, and you think they're saying "get out of here," and you're terrified to boot, so you try to drive your way out.

'Stop or you will be shot'

Another problem is that the US troops tend to have two-stage checkpoints. First there's a knot of Iraqi security forces standing by a sign that says, in Arabic and English, "Stop or you will be shot." Most of the time, the Iraqis will casually wave you through.

Your driver, who slowed down for the checkpoint, will accelerate to resume his normal speed. What he doesn't realize is that there's another, American checkpoint several hundred yards past the Iraqi checkpoint, and he's speeding toward it. Sometimes, he may even think that being waved through the first checkpoint means he's exempt from the second one (especially if he's not familiar with American checkpoint routines).

I remember one terrifying day when my Iraqi driver did just that. We got to a checkpoint manned by Iraqi troops. Chatting and smoking, they waved us through without a glance.

Relieved, he stomped down on the gas pedal, and we zoomed up to about 50 miles per hour before I saw the second checkpoint up ahead. I screamed at him to stop, my translator screamed, and the American soldiers up ahead looked as if they were getting ready to start shooting.

After I got my driver to slow down and we cleared the second checkpoint, I made him stop the car. My voice shaking with fear, I explained to him that once he sees a checkpoint, whether it's behind him or ahead of him, he should drive as slowly as possible for at least five minutes.

He turned to me, his face twisted with the anguish of making me understand: "But Mrs. Annia," he said, "if you go slow, they notice you!"

Under Saddam, idling was risky

This feeling is a holdover from the days of Saddam, when driving slowly past a government building or installation was considered suspicious behavior. Get caught idling past the wrong palaces or ministry, and you might never be seen again.

I remember parking outside a ministry with an Iraqi driver, waiting to pick up a friend. After sitting and staring at the building for about half an hour, waiting for our friend to emerge, the driver shook his head.

"If you even looked at this building before, you'd get arrested," he said, his voice full of disbelief. Before, he would speed past this building, gripping the wheel, staring straight ahead, careful not to even turn his head. After 35 years of this, Iraqis still speed up when they're driving past government buildings - which, since the Americans took over a lot of them, tend be to exactly where the checkpoints are.

Fear of insurgents and kidnappers are another reason for accelerating, and in that scenario, speeding up and getting away could save your life. Many Iraqis know somebody who's been shot at on the road, and a lot of people survived only because they stepped on the gas.

This fear comes into play at checkpoints because US troops are often accompanied by a cordon of Iraqi security forces - and a lot of the assassinations and kidnappings have been carried out by Iraqi security forces or people dressed in their uniforms. Often the Iraqi security forces are the first troops visible at checkpoints. If they are angry-looking and you hear shots being fired, it becomes easier to misread the situation and put the pedal to the metal.

A couple of times soldiers have told me at checkpoints that they had just shot somebody. They're not supposed to talk about it, but they do. I think the soldiers really needed to talk about it. They were traumatized by the experience.

Traumatic for soldiers, too

This is not what they wanted - really not what they wanted - and the whole checkpoint experience is confusing and terrifying for them as well as for the Iraqis. Many of them have probably seen people get killed or injured, including friends of theirs. You can imagine what it's like for them, wondering whether each car that approaches is a normal Iraqi family or a suicide bomber.

The essential problem with checkpoints is that the Americans don't know if the Iraqis are "friendlies" or not, and the Iraqis don't know what the Americans want them to do.

I always wished that the American commanders who set up these checkpoints could drive through themselves, in a civilian car, so they could see what the experience was like for civilians. But it wouldn't be the same: They already know what an American checkpoint is, and how to act at one - which many Iraqis don't.

Is there a way to do checkpoints right? Perhaps, perhaps not. But it seems that the checkpoint experience perfectly encapsulates the contradictions and miseries and misunderstandings of everyone's common experience - both Iraqis and Americans - in Iraq.

Andy_
Mar 9th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Hey!

I've decided to make a post on the subject simply coz I've seen there's been a certain discussion, and some posts are a little extreme in their position, either blaming or totally absolving the US army in this occasion.

I haven't actually read the sources we were given links to on here, coz as an Italian I've had the opportunity to follow the events from a different and rather direct perspective, since Giuliana and her partner, have been speaking publicly about the events just after getting back home.

I've seen some of you describing a scenario where an unidentified car speeds through the night without stopping at an official US check-point, where a poor soldier had to defend himself. Of course I can't say that holds no truth at all... but I'd like to report Giuliana's version of the events, as I have heard it from her own voice, coz that is slightly different.

The Italian government had warned the US about the operation about to be carried out. The 'check point' wasn't an official one, and the 'rules' weren't exactly followed. As one can easily understand considering the 'geography' and 'geometry' of the so-called check point, there was no way the car could actually be speeding... and it wasn't. Giuliana reports hundreds of bullets being shot. Giuliana says they tried to talk with the soldiers and they didn't believe they were Italian... they forced them to turn their cell phones off... And more 'weird' elements make the story pretty curious.

With that I'm not saying that this is THE absolute truth... I'm only suggesting that we all try and listen to both sides of the story, coz one can't take absolutely for granted that what the US Government says, when it comes to what happens in Iraq, is true... we all know this wouldn't be the first lie we hear (dear Iraqi weapon of mass destruction, where art thou?!)

Lord Nelson
Mar 9th, 2005, 11:45 AM
I read only some of the postings. This is what I have to say:
I won't subscribe too much to what the Italian ex-hostage has to say. She writes for a communist newspaper that has always been anti-American. I doublt that she would have said something differetn no matter what the circumstances. I would be more interested to hear what the other Italian agents who were there have to say about the event. Surely they would be more credible.
Also I don't seem to hear any bad comments that this hostage had to say about her kidnappers. She only seems to trash the Americans. It's almost as if she was on holidays instead of being captive. Perhaps she should have been left there. Bloody commie!

flyingmachine
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Hey!

I've decided to make a post on the subject simply coz I've seen there's been a certain discussion, and some posts are a little extreme in their position, either blaming or totally absolving the US army in this occasion.

I haven't actually read the sources we were given links to on here, coz as an Italian I've had the opportunity to follow the events from a different and rather direct perspective, since Giuliana and her partner, have been speaking publicly about the events just after getting back home.

I've seen some of you describing a scenario where an unidentified car speeds through the night without stopping at an official US check-point, where a poor soldier had to defend himself. Of course I can't say that holds no truth at all... but I'd like to report Giuliana's version of the events, as I have heard it from her own voice, coz that is slightly different.

The Italian government had warned the US about the operation about to be carried out. The 'check point' wasn't an official one, and the 'rules' weren't exactly followed. As one can easily understand considering the 'geography' and 'geometry' of the so-called check point, there was no way the car could actually be speeding... and it wasn't. Giuliana reports hundreds of bullets being shot. Giuliana says they tried to talk with the soldiers and they didn't believe they were Italian... they forced them to turn their cell phones off... And more 'weird' elements make the story pretty curious.

With that I'm not saying that this is THE absolute truth... I'm only suggesting that we all try and listen to both sides of the story, coz one can't take absolutely for granted that what the US Government says, when it comes to what happens in Iraq, is true... we all know this wouldn't be the first lie we hear (dear Iraqi weapon of mass destruction, where art thou?!)
I think you are right Andy. :worship: Both sides has it's own bais in this issue. I think is best to listern both sides of the story before making the final decision.
Anyway,
Jipplypuff : You getting better at it. Keep going. :worship:
JustIncredible : Thank you for that articule. :worship:

bee
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Big mistake for the US forces..
They were lucky the hostage wasn't the one who got killed...

There seem to be no coordination at all....

Veritas
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:15 PM
I read only some of the postings. This is what I have to say:
I won't subscribe too much to what the Italian ex-hostage has to say. She writes for a communist newspaper that has always been anti-American. I doublt that she would have said something differetn no matter what the circumstances. I would be more interested to hear what the other Italian agents who were there have to say about the event. Surely they would be more credible.
Also I don't seem to hear any bad comments that this hostage had to say about her kidnappers. She only seems to trash the Americans. It's almost as if she was on holidays instead of being captive. Perhaps she should have been left there. Bloody commie!

So what you're trying to say is that based solely on the fact that she works for a communist newspaper and happens to be communist-friendly herself, she "should have been left" at the mercy of her captors and have her statements treated as little more than lies and rants :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lord Nelson
Mar 9th, 2005, 12:44 PM
So what you're trying to say is that based solely on the fact that she works for a communist newspaper and happens to be communist-friendly herself, she "should have been left" at the mercy of her captors and have her statements treated as little more than lies and rants :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh, ok than you think that Fox news is not biased then? Oh, good. Well here is the link that makes me think that Gulie is a scumback who should have been left in Iraq.
Giuliana Sgrena the Italian journalist hostage, is now saying that American troops shot at her car on purpose trying to kill her.
The White House says the claim is absurd.

In addition, let me point out some other absurdities:

First, Ms. Sgrena is from a communist newspaper called Il Manifesto. So how many of you think Il Manifesto sent her to Iraq to report on how well Iraq is doing after its first free election? None of you? What a smart bunch. Of course it didn't.

She is an ardent anti-American who was going to Iraq to do a hatchet job on the American effort there and — silly her — she didn't realize the Iraqi insurgent kidnapers didn't really care if she thought they were noble freedom fighters. They just wanted her sorry bones to ransom.

What's more, she now admits they treated her well. Gee, now, that's a surprise. When we all saw that tape of Ms. Sgrena begging for her life with her hands held in prayer — imagine a reporter for a communist paper praying — everybody thought things must really be rough. Now it turns out they told her what to say and how to say it and she acted her part.

Also, The Washington Times is reporting Monday that the $6 million ransom was not Italian government money, but personal funds of the media mogul Silvio Berlusconi — who just happens to be the prime minister.

So what do you think the chances are that Ms. Sgrena cooperated with her captors to squeeze some cash out of what she would regard as a capitalist pig, the media mogul and prime minister Mr. Berlusconi?

Think I'm stretching there?

In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

That's My Word.

Veritas
Mar 9th, 2005, 01:22 PM
It seems like I must correct this ignorance:

Oh, ok than you think that Fox news is not biased then?

Where did I say anything about "Fox news"?

Oh, good.

Indeed.

Well here is the link that makes me think that Gulie is a scumback who should have been left in Iraq.

Very well. Since you brought the article up, I shall try and dissect it myself.

Giuliana Sgrena the Italian journalist hostage, is now saying that American troops shot at her car on purpose trying to kill her.

Of course she'd say that. Wasn't she injured by American troops? As irrational as some of her comments may be, it's understandable.

The White House says the claim is absurd.

Well, how else would the White House have responded?

First, Ms. Sgrena is from a communist newspaper called Il Manifesto. So how many of you think Il Manifesto sent her to Iraq to report on how well Iraq is doing after its first free election? None of you? What a smart bunch. Of course it didn't.

Is it a crime to report on anything other than how "well" Iraq's current social "cohesion" is?

She is an ardent anti-American who was going to Iraq to do a hatchet job on the American effort there and — silly her — she didn't realize the Iraqi insurgent kidnapers didn't really care if she thought they were noble freedom fighters. They just wanted her sorry bones to ransom.

That much I will agree with.

What's more, she now admits they treated her well. Gee, now, that's a surprise. When we all saw that tape of Ms. Sgrena begging for her life with her hands held in prayer — imagine a reporter for a communist paper praying — everybody thought things must really be rough. Now it turns out they told her what to say and how to say it and she acted her part.

Yes Giuliani Sgrena did make a video "thanking" her captors.

However, the video was made before her release. For all I know, there is a large possibility her speech was specified by the fanatics and she was forced to rehearse those lines in front of a camera.

http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200503081907-1233-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia

Even the Fox news article writer admits that Sgrena's captors "told her what to say and how to say it". He/she simply forgot to mention the possibility that Sgrena might have been forced to do so, rather than being "told".

Also, The Washington Times is reporting Monday that the $6 million ransom was not Italian government money, but personal funds of the media mogul Silvio Berlusconi — who just happens to be the prime minister.

The ransom money was not paid.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1673176,00.html

So what do you think the chances are that Ms. Sgrena cooperated with her captors to squeeze some cash out of what she would regard as a capitalist pig, the media mogul and prime minister Mr. Berlusconi?

Again, the ransom money was not paid.

Think I'm stretching there?

Why of course.

In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

Firstly, there are indeed two sides: one says that the car the secret agent, Nicola Calipari drove was "speeding"; the other side claims that the car "was travelling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 40 km per hour" (http://english.people.com.cn/200503/09/eng20050309_176200.html).

Secondly, (again) it is understandable why Sgrena blames the American troops for injuring her: simply, they were the ones who shot her.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

This is possibly the most ignorant paragraph I've been exposed to. There have been many innocent people who had "wandered" around in Iraq and were killed by fanatical groups. I'm fairly sure not all of them sympathised "with the insurgents".

Also, the writer tries to make out that Sgrena (and others) had caused their own kidnapping because they were 'wandering' around. What sane person would allow themselves to be freely kidnapped? Has it occured to the writer that maybe they had been ambushed, trailed, etc.?

A number of kidnappings happen precisely because people "wander around". However, those people are victims, not criminal masterminds.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

:rolleyes:

That's My Word.

It sure is.

Lord Nelson
Mar 9th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Now I'll speak in my words. So far it's only Guliana who is speaking out. What about the secret service men who were with her and who survivied? How come no one hears them out? Do they agree with Guliana? Does Guliana say NOW that her treatment by the Iraqis was horrible, no. Also what makes you think that no ransom was paid, were you there? YOu think that the Iraqis let her go because they were so noble. I remember that 3 Japanese reporters were captured 2 years ago and Iraqi fanatics were holding knives in from of their throats and shouting, 'Allah akbar' in front of home camera and the Japanese were crying. Well, eventually all 3 were freed and the female reporter said that she cannot bring herself to hate the Iraqi people (good for her) and that she will go back to Iraq to cover more stories. Hey, forget about what the Japanese gov. helping her out. She can go back, never mind what the Japanese gov. did for her.

Veritas
Mar 9th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Now I'll speak in my words. So far it's only Guliana who is speaking out. What about the secret service men who were with her and who survivied? How come no one hears them out?

Maybe because what they have to say hasn't been reported yet.

Also what makes you think that no ransom was paid, were you there?

:rolleyes:

In case you haven't noticed, I am going by what I've read. And I know that as biased as reporters can be, they do a hell of a lot more research than the average Joe, so of course I'm inclined to believe that ransom hasn't been paid, especially when there has yet to be any evidence to suggest otherwise.

YOu think that the Iraqis let her go because they were so noble.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You can't be serious.

Where and when did I relate the adjective "noble" to those Iraqi insurgents?

Again, you are putting words into my mouth :clap2: :rolleyes:

I remember that 3 Japanese reporters were captured 2 years ago

It was less than a year ago.

kiwifan
Mar 9th, 2005, 02:15 PM
I saw the documentary "Gunner Palace" last night. In part its about the soldiers who work those check points and have to deal with random bombs placed all over town and cars loaded with explosives.

I think if I was one of those poor guys there'd be a hell of a lot more accidental shootings because, that shit is scary. :scared:

You don't have a lot of time to make a judgement call and nothing happens in a vacuum. You've got friendly kids and adults all around you with rock throwers or suicide bomber types amongst them. There are clips where you can see 40 little kids and half are smiling and cheering others are just running behind the armoured vehicles and of course off to the side there's a couple of kids throwing rocks. Guys that are helping the soldiers one day are caught helping the other side a month later. :explode:

Its a tough situation and these are 19 year old kids who are trying to make it back home again. They've seen their friends fall victim to the bombs and bullets so of course they're going to err on the side of...

...survival. :angel:

SJW
Mar 9th, 2005, 02:24 PM
very unfortunate incident. i feel for family of the guy who was murdered (?). personally...i find it difficult to trust cnn/fox in an incident such as this, and i also find it difficult to trust a writer for a communist paper in a situation like this. hopefully the americans will start shooting more bad guys and less coalition soldiers and freed hostages after this.

DevilishAttitude
Mar 9th, 2005, 02:32 PM
USA :retard:

kiwifan
Mar 9th, 2005, 02:52 PM
USA :retard:

Yep. :smoke:

Makes you feel so helpless doesn't it. :devil:

Ted of Teds Tennis
Mar 9th, 2005, 03:16 PM
So what you're trying to say is that based solely on the fact that she works for a communist newspaper and happens to be communist-friendly herself, she "should have been left" at the mercy of her captors and have her statements treated as little more than lies and rants :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Perhaps you should read This translation (http://www.zachtei.nl/2005/03/08/000670.html) of an article by Dutch journalist Harald Doornbos:
'Be careful not to get kidnapped,' I told the female Italian journalist sitting next to me in the small plane that was headed for Baghdad. 'Oh no,' she said. 'That won't happen. We are siding with the oppressed Iraqi people. No Iraqi would kidnap us.'

It doesn't sound very nice to be critical of a fellow reporter. But Sgrena's attitude is a disgrace for journalism. Or didn't she tell me back in the plane that 'common journalists such as yourself' simply do not support the Iraqi people? 'The Americans are the biggest enemies of mankind,' the three women behind me had told me, for Sgrena travelled to Iraq with two Italian colleagues who hated the Americans as well.

(Doornbos goes on to explain how the women demeaned him for travelling as an embedded reporter with the US military, for security reasons. They didn't want to hear about any safety concerns.)

'You don't understand the situation. We are anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, communists,' they said. The Iraqis only kidnap American sympathizers, the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear.

CC
Mar 9th, 2005, 07:35 PM
The whole debate about the justification of the invasion and the inefficient post-war process aside, there is one US policy that I completely agree with: do not negotiate with terrorists. If someone I loved wanted to go to Iraq, I would try to discourage them with every fibre of my being. Otherwise, I wouldn't resent my government for refusing to bargain for their life. It is cowardly to give in to the demands of terrorists, especially in situations like these.

Darop.
Mar 9th, 2005, 07:50 PM
I don't know if this has already been mentioned, I haven't read all the thread but :p

Giuliana Sgrena was part of the Comunist Party and was a journalist for "Il Manifesto", a comunist news paper.

Darop.
Mar 9th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Get over yourself. It's obvious your dislike for America makes you completely irrational. First of all, while it is sad when people are kidnapped or killed, they knew they would be putting themselves in danger by going to a country at war or during a period of daily, violent insurgent acts. Secondly, the car the Italians were traveling in was obviously mistaken as one of these possible attacks. If the story is as reported, I don't blame the soldiers for shooting. Kill them before they kill you - makes sense to me.

From the CNN page:

According to a multinational forces statement, the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)
U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

all that is bullshit, the car was going at 50km/h

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 9th, 2005, 10:41 PM
It was an appalling incident.

Fox News's take on the incident, shows how "Fair and Balanced" they really are... :rolleyes:

Im used to the far-right rants coming out of the FNC, but this one was remarkable even by their rabid standards...


------------------------------
Fox News

Rush to JudgmentTuesday, March 08, 2005
By John Gibson



Giuliana Sgrena the Italian journalist hostage, is now saying that American troops shot at her car on purpose trying to kill her.
The White House says the claim is absurd.

In addition, let me point out some other absurdities:

First, Ms. Sgrena is from a communist newspaper called Il Manifesto. So how many of you think Il Manifesto sent her to Iraq to report on how well Iraq is doing after its first free election? None of you? What a smart bunch. Of course it didn't.

She is an ardent anti-American who was going to Iraq to do a hatchet job on the American effort there and — silly her — she didn't realize the Iraqi insurgent kidnapers didn't really care if she thought they were noble freedom fighters. They just wanted her sorry bones to ransom.

What's more, she now admits they treated her well. Gee, now, that's a surprise. When we all saw that tape of Ms. Sgrena begging for her life with her hands held in prayer — imagine a reporter for a communist paper praying — everybody thought things must really be rough. Now it turns out they told her what to say and how to say it and she acted her part.

Also, The Washington Times is reporting Monday that the $6 million ransom was not Italian government money, but personal funds of the media mogul Silvio Berlusconi — who just happens to be the prime minister.

So what do you think the chances are that Ms. Sgrena cooperated with her captors to squeeze some cash out of what she would regard as a capitalist pig, the media mogul and prime minister Mr. Berlusconi?

Think I'm stretching there?

In any case, she's now blaming the Americans for shooting up her car which tried to speed through a checkpoint.

I'm blaming her for thinking she could wander around Iraq unharmed because she is a sympathizer with the insurgents, then for getting herself snatched, then for getting the prime minister to put up his own money, which led to the death of one of the Italian intelligence agents who came to save her sorry rear end.

She's right — it is disgusting. I am disgusted with her.

That's My Word.

--------------------

(...and Im disgusted with far-right peddlers of crap like him...)

No offence, but you sound like the archetypal Guardian/Independent reading, BBC/Channel 4 watching girly-boy.

Thats my word.