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Helas
Mar 4th, 2005, 02:52 PM
PS This isn't a thread bashing Muslims its just a debate in light of the murder of Theo Van Gogh in Holland and the French ban on headscarfs

ginger_fish668
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:07 PM
I do think that a lot of them feel unfairly targeted and discriminated against since 9/11, and probably think that most people discriminate against them. However, I don't really think that's the case.

I think some of the Muslims in Western countries are a little over-sensitive, but I guess they are subjected to a lot of unfair criticisms and discrimination. It's hard to blame them for being too sensitive until we are put into their positions. So, this is just my opinion.

Anyways, not gonna vote. Too sensitive a topic ,don't wanna piss people off... :)

Infiniti2001
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Yes they are. Yesterday I was watching this Indian muslim lady on CNN. She's out to bring changes in Islam . She wants women to be able to worship side by side with men and to be equal to them in every way possible. Poor thing has received many death threats to this day --- 35 men from her mosque have signed petitions to have her thrown out of the Mosque :rolleyes: , but she's fighting along. Hopefully many more muslim women will join her in this fight for equality.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Well, they are no different than any of the other major religons. They have all gone through their "prickly" periods. They have all experienced some sort of discrimination. This too shall pass

Scotso
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:49 PM
No.

The Crow
Mar 4th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Everyone is too sensitive about their religion. Even atheists ;)

DevilishAttitude
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:41 PM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:

adss
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:

There is no such thing as the "worst" religion, one's belief is their own individual belief/identity and no one should judge and especially look down on someone's religion. you dont have to believe in the same views, but you should still be respectful

The Crow
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:58 PM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:

:rolleyes:

Tati & Dani
Mar 4th, 2005, 05:59 PM
yes

flyingmachine
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Everyone is too sensitive about their religion. Even atheists ;)
True ;)

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:07 PM
YES, YES, YES - & its a complete joke how we pander to Muslim paranoia.

People can say whatever they like about Christianity (& they usually do), but if you criticise Islam in public you are berated as racist or xenophobic by the media & risk being beheaded in the street (Van Gogh) by some crazed Islamist.

MULTICULTURALISM - NO :fiery:

INTERGRATION - YES :)

Seles_Beckham
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :( You are just sad. You don't have to insult others. :fiery: Come on how old are you ?? She should wear what we wear or live :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :sad:

You have your answer about the question, this is why I ( as a muslim ) or any other muslim is sensetive about Islam. People talk and attack Islam and they don't even know what they are talking against.

Shonami Slam
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:20 PM
i step on the stones of belief in order to get across the troubled waters of religion, and that way keep myself dry from the flooded hatred and evil.
all men should believe, religion takes too much of our freedom to believe and think and question god and the world.
open up your minds.

Martian Willow
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:21 PM
YES, YES, YES - & its a complete joke how we pander to Muslim paranoia.

People can say whatever they like about Christianity (& they usually do), but if you criticise Islam in public you are berated as racist or xenophobic by the media & risk being beheaded in the street (Van Gogh) by some crazed Islamist.

MULTICULTURALISM - NO :fiery:

INTERGRATION - YES :)

If you don't like multiculturalism you're living in the wrong country. :wavey:

PaulieM
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:22 PM
i'm not going to say yes or no because i don't know what it's like to be muslim in this world. but i will say that i thought the french ban of the headscarf was really stupid, that's just my opinion for which i have many reasons so nobody get offended.

PaulieM
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:
omg ok this is increadibly ignorant and offensive. and i'm going to choose to think that you're just being purposely obnoxious and don't really think this. no religion is better than any other. i just went through a huge thing on mtf last night that made me realize how ignorant and hateful some people are in this world and it makes me really sad to see stuff like this.

Giuliano
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Agree with the Crow. There are extremists in every religion. Some Christians and Jews are touchy too. Hmm, won't say more for the moment.

Although, the ban of the headscarf is something proper to France. Laicity (?) and integration are part of the French republican pact.

Equus
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:56 PM
NO NO NO! for Turkeey!


I m muslim and i live in Turkey. girls and boys are in the same cage here and we are very developed youngs (15.5 million people under 18). We aren t terrorists! and u can t see anybody who is wearing islamic clothes,just too except %10 of the people prefers it. İ m sure , we will be very successful in the future but i m very sad for my age group (i m 17) who lives in Iraq,Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan... they live really in hard conditions and too many of them don t want to look like the people thinks by the people.and i hate all the fundamentalists they aren t the real muslims our religion isn t like u think and our book(Coran) says that ''if one kills somebody it goes to hell'' . Don t forget that, in all the religions there are fundamentalists!

So my vote is still NOO!

Conchi Party
Mar 4th, 2005, 06:59 PM
As someone who is quite familiar with the Islam through friends and where I used to live, I can say that any fanatical religious person is way too sensitive. This includes muslims,hindus,jews, and christians among others...

That being said, as a North American visible minority I face discrimination because of the color of my skin. Since 9/11 I've been asked as to why my people did that ( the funny thing is that I'm Hindu, which on the religious spectrum is quite opposite) and people toss around the word jihad as if thuis is common doctrine.

I think whoever made the comment about integration over multiculturalism is a bigoted right wing fascist who should get off their white KKK ass and get an education.

ditto for devilish....

Lord Nelson
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:27 PM
There is no such thing as the "worst" religion, one's belief is their own individual belief/identity and no one should judge and especially look down on someone's religion. you dont have to believe in the same views, but you should still be respectful
That's what you say, but I'm sure that you have criticized evangilist Christians. Liberalism is destroying western culture. Read Orianna Fallacci's book on the Islam in Europe.

Giuliano
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:30 PM
How is liberalism destroying western culture?

Lord Nelson
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:32 PM
As someone who is quite familiar with the Islam through friends and where I used to live, I can say that any fanatical religious person is way too sensitive. This includes muslims,hindus,jews, and christians among others...

That being said, as a North American visible minority I face discrimination because of the color of my skin. Since 9/11 I've been asked as to why my people did that ( the funny thing is that I'm Hindu, which on the religious spectrum is quite opposite) and people toss around the word jihad as if thuis is common doctrine.

I think whoever made the comment about integration over multiculturalism is a bigoted right wing fascist who should get off their white KKK ass and get an education.

ditto for devilish....
Well, I'm of Indian origin like you though I'm not a Hindu. Devilish is 15 years old give her a break. Why is it ok for some to criticize Christians but when one criticizes Muslims or Jews either they are bigots or anti-semitic? I think that Islam has a lot of soul-searching to do. Sure every religion has its excesses but Islam seems to have more than others. That's a shame because there are many good things about Islam. I myself almost converted to the religion.

Lord Nelson
Mar 4th, 2005, 07:42 PM
How is liberalism destroying western culture?
By allowing an unrestricted number of immigrants to the country (I'm an immigrant too). Just look at the Green party in Germany or the favourable immigration policies of Britain. Also by allowing girls to wear veils in schools. Western European nations are secular countries but due to liberalism they seem to reject their religion and culture. Liberals can be funny. On one hand they don't like religion (though they only seem to criticize Christianity) on the other hand they are scared to let Turkey join the EU and give all kind of excuses when the real reason is that Turks are Muslims. Finally European liberals are not that different then we conservatives.
Also check the article below from Herlad Tribune which says that growing number of Jews are voting for conservatives because of rising anti-Jewish attitudes in Europe.

www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/21/news/jews/html

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:11 PM
By allowing an unrestricted number of immigrants to the country (I'm an immigrant too). Just look at the Green party in Germany or the favourable immigration policies of Britain. Also by allowing girls to wear veils in schools. Western European nations are secular countries but due to liberalism they seem to reject their religion and culture. Liberals can be funny. On one hand they don't like religion (though they only seem to criticize Christianity) on the other hand they are scared to let Turkey join the EU and give all kind of excuses when the real reason is that Turks are Muslims. Finally European liberals are not that different then we conservatives.
Also check the article below from Herlad Tribune which says that growing number of Jews are voting for conservatives because of rising anti-Jewish attitudes in Europe.

www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/21/news/jews/html

Agree with every word - lazy, knee-jerk liberal attitudes on every subject under the sun are the curse of the West.

We are tolerating ourselves to death with relentless moral relativism and an abject inability to condemn those things that are wrong for fear of causing offence.

Why do educated people find it so easy to condemn white racists who hate Jews and preach the superiority of white europeans over other races, but so difficult to condemn with similar enthusiasm radical Islamists who hate Jews & preach the absolute superiority of Islam & call for holy war against all non-believers.

The problem is not Islam per se, but Islamism & those moderate Muslims who make excuses for the extremists in their midst.

adss
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Why is it ok for some to criticize Christians but when one criticizes Muslims or Jews either they are bigots or anti-semitic?

i personally dont think it's ok to criticize christianity either. as said before religion is an individual thing and people should respect it whether or not they have the same views.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:20 PM
I think whoever made the comment about integration over multiculturalism is a bigoted right wing fascist who should get off their white KKK ass and get an education.

ditto for devilish....[/QUOTE]

Are you fucking insane - what the hell is racist about hoping that people living within a nation can become part of a national community rather than be condemned to living in ethnic ghettos?

If you are willing to dismiss me as a racist on no basis other than my unwillingness to bow at the disfunctional alter of multiculturalism, then you are a shallow fuckwit.

DelMonte
Mar 4th, 2005, 08:45 PM
MULTICULTURALISM - NO :fiery:

INTERGRATION - YES :)


Hm yes, tell that to the ex-pat Brits who form little ghetto communities whenever they go to live (retire) abroad!

Also, I don't think Europeans who have settled in African countries (South Africa, Kenya, Zimbabwe) have integrated much. Many of them live in white-only gated communities, don't speak any African language, mainly socialise with other whites, marry mainly only whites etc

My point is this: ALL migrants (Europeans and non-Europeans) tend to want to preserve their own culture/language/way of life.

Dave B
Mar 4th, 2005, 09:07 PM
Bah to questions like this. How about:

Don't people ask way to many general questions that group millions of diverse people together unfairly and enquire about their negative qualities?

Conchi Party
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:14 PM
"pander to muslim paranoia"

"risk being beheaded"

Attacking the premise of multiculturism is to attack what you would perceive as "inferior" cultures, thus they must integrate into a civilized society or get out.

You are racist, and as to devilish being 15 and saying those things, he/she is clearly learning that shit from someone, and it needs to be stopped asap.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 4th, 2005, 10:25 PM
"pander to muslim paranoia"

"risk being beheaded"

Attacking the premise of multiculturism is to attack what you would perceive as "inferior" cultures, thus they must integrate into a civilized society or get out.

You are racist, and as to devilish being 15 and saying those things, he/she is clearly learning that shit from someone, and it needs to be stopped asap.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with other cultures being "inferior" - it is to do with people who emmigrate to another country embracing & respecting its cultural norms as well as preserving their own.

Multiculturalism by its very nature keeps people divided & breeds mutual distrust which can be tapped into by extremists (white fascists & Islamists).

Shonami Slam
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:17 AM
by the way, there is a god because i don't know how the first thought is born, how we learn to talk or write, and how a cell-creating cell was made.
those are good enough reasons.

Diesel
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:21 AM
If Muslims are sensitive about their religion, they aren't any different than any other religious group.

Justeenium
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:43 AM
By allowing an unrestricted number of immigrants to the country (I'm an immigrant too). Just look at the Green party in Germany or the favourable immigration policies of Britain. Also by allowing girls to wear veils in schools. Western European nations are secular countries but due to liberalism they seem to reject their religion and culture. Liberals can be funny. On one hand they don't like religion (though they only seem to criticize Christianity) on the other hand they are scared to let Turkey join the EU and give all kind of excuses when the real reason is that Turks are Muslims. Finally European liberals are not that different then we conservatives.
Also check the article below from Herlad Tribune which says that growing number of Jews are voting for conservatives because of rising anti-Jewish attitudes in Europe.

www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/21/news/jews/html

I'm conservative but I disagree with your statement. one component of liberalism is pro-immigration, but Liberalism!=immigration.

What you really meant to say is that immigration is destroying western culture (and I agree). And remember a lot of these immigrants you speak of are actually conservative.

Justeenium
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:48 AM
I think whoever made the comment about integration over multiculturalism is a bigoted right wing fascist who should get off their white KKK ass and get an education.

ditto for devilish
Are you fucking insane - what the hell is racist about hoping that people living within a nation can become part of a national community rather than be condemned to living in ethnic ghettos?

If you are willing to dismiss me as a racist on no basis other than my unwillingness to bow at the disfunctional alter of multiculturalism, then you are a shallow fuckwit.

extremely well said

mykarma
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:07 AM
Muslim is well IMO the worst religion :rolleyes: There usually the terrorists and some of there views on Allah God whatever are :retard:

In the UK a muslim girl went to court cos she wasn't allowed to wear her Muslim clothes at a school :o And she won her fight :( She should wear want we wear or leave :fiery:Whether you're aware of it or not, that was a very narrow minded, racist statement. :( I'm sure there are Muslims that think Christians are terrorist. The KKK consider themselves Christians. Does that mean all Christians are the same as the KKK? Nelson Mandela and anyone that fought against apartheid was considered terrorist. All the while the good. white, Christian, South Africans, were systematically torturing, raping, stealing, and murdering, black South Africans. Did that make all Christians murderers and torturers? Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes

As far as your other statement is concerned, why should a Muslim girl not be able to wear her Muslim clothes to school. It's not just a fad, it's her culture and religious belief. In the 60's and 70's African Americans were losing their jobs for wearing their hair natural to work because it was considered radical and not professional. Sounds stupid doesn't it. Believe it or not, everyone in the world is not Anglo, and not everyone has the same beliefs and culture as yours. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

~ The Leopard ~
Mar 5th, 2005, 04:22 AM
Hmmmm, another brilliantly comic discussion between those pretending to be naive cultural relativists and those pretending to be crude, blatant xenophobes. I love you all. :worship:

SpikeyAidanm
Mar 5th, 2005, 07:57 AM
I made a few Muslim friends at uni, I wore army pants one day and they didn't seem to care. lol.

Tenisci
Mar 5th, 2005, 09:29 AM
surely no !!!!

it changes from country to country. for Turkey it is not. i know a lot of people dont believe us but in Turkey, everything is different. unfortunately there is not a strick moslems here as arabs and etc.

DevilishAttitude
Mar 5th, 2005, 10:54 AM
Whether you're aware of it or not, that was a very narrow minded, racist statement. :( I'm sure there are Muslims that think Christians are terrorist. The KKK consider themselves Christians. Does that mean all Christians are the same as the KKK? Nelson Mandela and anyone that fought against apartheid was considered terrorist. All the while the good. white, Christian, South Africans, were systematically torturing, raping, stealing, and murdering, black South Africans. Did that make all Christians murderers and torturers? Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes

As far as your other statement is concerned, why should a Muslim girl not be able to wear her Muslim clothes to school. It's not just a fad, it's her culture and religious belief. In the 60's and 70's African Americans were losing their jobs for wearing their hair natural to work because it was considered radical and not professional. Sounds stupid doesn't it. Believe it or not, everyone in the world is not Anglo, and not everyone has the same beliefs and culture as yours. Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Religion is IMO the worst thing in the world cos anyone who has big views on it are well IMO :cuckoo: I know not all Muslims are terrorists and that not all Christians should be :worship:

If I was the girl then I'd respect what the culture is. If I went to another country and people didn't like what I wore then I wear what they want :)

Conchi Party :rolleyes: I'm not racist. There my own views on Muslim religion. Not learnt from anyone else.

flyingmachine
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Religion is IMO the worst thing in the world cos anyone who has big views on it are well IMO :cuckoo: I know not all Muslims are terrorists and that not all Christians should be :worship:

If I was the girl then I'd respect what the culture is. If I went to another country and people didn't like what I wore then I wear what they want :)

Conchi Party :rolleyes: I'm not racist. There my own views on Muslim religion. Not learnt from anyone else.
I could understand where your veiws are coming for but your views on Muslim earlier on are just anti Islam. :rolleyes: :(

Lord Nelson
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Religion is IMO the worst thing in the world cos anyone who has big views on it are well IMO :cuckoo: I know not all Muslims are terrorists and that not all Christians should be :worship:

If I was the girl then I'd respect what the culture is. If I went to another country and people didn't like what I wore then I wear what they want :)

Conchi Party :rolleyes: I'm not racist. There my own views on Muslim religion. Not learnt from anyone else.
I agree. I', all for Muslim girls wearing veils in Europe if non-muslim girls are not forced to wear the veils in many Middle East countries. By the way I keep hearing that Saddam Hussein's regime was Socialist. Only its economic policies were socialist. It was nationalistic like Milosevic's regime, thus it was more close to extreme-right views. Sunni arabs were favoured over Shiite Arabs and Sunni/shiite Kurds. Is that Socialism?

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:52 PM
I agree. I', all for Muslim girls wearing veils in Europe if non-muslim girls are not forced to wear the veils in many Middle East countries. By the way I keep hearing that Saddam Hussein's regime was Socialist. Only its economic policies were socialist. It was nationalistic like Milosevic's regime, thus it was more close to extreme-right views. Sunni arabs were favoured over Shiite Arabs and Sunni/shiite Kurds. Is that Socialism?

It was a Socialist economic basketcase & with a arab-nationalist/fascist worldview. I'm sure you know that Saddam Hussein was a huge fan of both Stalin & Hitler.

I think its difficult to pigeonhole Socialism but I know one thing - IT DOESNT WORK.

flyingmachine
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Hm yes, tell that to the ex-pat Brits who form little ghetto communities whenever they go to live (retire) abroad!

Also, I don't think Europeans who have settled in African countries (South Africa, Kenya, Zimbabwe) have integrated much. Many of them live in white-only gated communities, don't speak any African language, mainly socialise with other whites, marry mainly only whites etc

My point is this: ALL migrants (Europeans and non-Europeans) tend to want to preserve their own culture/language/way of life.
Great points on that. :worship: Also I found many of these communities (including my) are very conseratives on their way of thinking and when we are subjected to a lot of unfair criticisms and discrimination. (It's not that bad in my eithic group but it was a lot worse on the Muslim communities since 9/11. :rolleyes: ) Many of us united together and try to so called "being strong" that kind of atittude this means over sensitive on traditions and this includes religion too this also means reluctance to change.

Anyway speaking of intergration. As far as I heard in this thread it seems to them that intergration is all about one way process. However intergration is a two way process. In order to intergrate both sides have to feel comfrontable about each communities becuse intergration is about intergrate two or more cultures into one. I think is very difficult for muslim communities and non muslims communities to intergrate since 9/11 because both sides don't seems to trust each other at the moment.

For muslims who live in a muslim country I think this is a total different question altogether. Since they have a very different atittude compare to muslims who migrant to a non muslim country.

P.S. Fear play a part in this issue too.

Halardfan
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:27 PM
Some muslims are too sensitive some aren't...

In a western society all relgions should be able to put up with scrutiny, investigation and indeed ridicule, it surely is the logic result for believing in something that is solely a question of faith and has no actual evidence to back it up.

If I believed the moon was made of cheese, I should expect to be challenged and indeed ridiculed too.

If you follow me.

Do I have a problem with some of what people do in the name of Islam? Yes.

Am I exclusively anti-Muslim? No.

Am I anti-Religion as a whole? Yes.

K.U.C.W-R.V
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Some muslims are too sensitive some aren't...

In a western society all relgions should be able to put up with scrutiny, investigation and indeed ridicule, it surely is the logic result for believing in something that is solely a question of faith and has no actual evidence to back it up.

If I believed the moon was made of cheese, I should expect to be challenged and indeed ridiculed too.

If you follow me.

Do I have a problem with some of what people do in the name of Islam? Yes.

Am I exclusively anti-Muslim? No.

Am I anti-Religion as a whole? Yes.

That was a pretty snappy definition of cultural relativism.

When Christian fundamentalists start flying planes into skyscrapers, detonating themselves amongst innocent civilians on a daily basis, & beheading Muslims with a blunt knife for tresspassing on Christian lands, I might consider coming round to your way of thinking.

The "all religions are equally terrible" argument is a red herring. True, there are problems within all religions, but there are very serious problems within contemporary Islam.

mykarma
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Religion is IMO the worst thing in the world cos anyone who has big views on it are well IMO I know not all Muslims are terrorists and that not all Christians should be If you know that then why did you make that obnoxious statement? If I was the girl then I'd respect what the culture is. If I went to another country and people didn't like what I wore then I wear what they want Since you're so diverse, why not try being more understanding of other cultures. I'm not racist. There my own views on Muslim religion. Not learnt from anyone else.:confused: I don't know if you're racist or not but your views are certainly racist.

Lord Nelson
Mar 5th, 2005, 04:44 PM
I just wanted to say that I don't think that Islam is the worst religion.There are great things about Islam and adapts of this religion are rich in culture. Even Saudi Arabia is fascinating to know about. But yeah, there isa culture clash amongst Muslims and non-Muslims whether it is with a Christian country (Serbia/Croatia), Buddhist (Thailand), hindu (India), Jewish (Israel) and between different Islamic factions. Iran is a fundementalist country but it seems to be more moderate than secular Arab countries in the Arab world such as Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia etc. A Nigerian friend of mine who is a Muslim and lived in Lybia told me that many Libyans look down upon non-Arab Muslim Africans. No wonder there is the Darfur problem. So to end this I will say that in general Malaysians, Kurds, Turks, Albanians, etc.. seem to be more moderate than people in the Arab/Pakistan world. Sorry if I'm offending anyone.