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Volcana
Jan 7th, 2005, 01:12 AM
NOTE: The policy reported, is true, is particularly dumb-ass, IMHO. Having the student sign a waver absolving the university of liabiity, plus some written material to the parents about possible dangers, should be more than sufficient to protect. If the USA is going to be attacked over our Mid-East policies, surely MORE students studying there, rather than fewer, is what would best help us understand the situation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/524076.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifU.S. schools pressed to alter policy on studies in Israel http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifBy Amiram Barkat and Daphna Berman (daphnab@haaretz.co.il)http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifNorth American Jewish organizations have launched a new campaign aimed at convincing universities in the United States to change their policy on study in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifAccording to the organizers of the campaign, schools have been imposing unjust limitations on students who express an interest in studying in Israel because of exaggerated fears for the students' personal safety. Jewish students who have studied here say that in addition to administrative constraints, they are also forced to deal with cool responses from their family and friends.

Until the outbreak of the second intifada in October 2000, thousands of American Jewish students participated in short study programs here. Almost all of these programs, which were run in conjunction with American universities, were canceled, however, once violence flared.

Then, after the terror attack on a cafeteria at Hebrew University's Mount Scopus campus, in August 2002, and the adding of Israel to the State Department's list of dangerous areas, most universities decided to go one step further, and imposed restrictions on study here, in an attempt to deter students from coming.

In the 2002-2003 academic year, slightly more than 100 students came here, compared to 4,000 in 2000-2001.

One student who was deterred from coming here is Jennifer Kraus, from Indiana. When she learned that the University of Indiana, where she is a public affairs management major, bars students from participating in study programs in Israel, she decided to come here without telling anyone from the university. In the end, she simply withdrew from the university, thereby forfeiting access to student services like her sorority, her university email account, and, most significantly perhaps, her financial aid package. She spent the Spring semester studying at Hebrew University.

When she returned to the United States, the authorities at her university told her she would have to begin her degree course from scratch. Kraus, currently in Israel as part of a group of visiting Jewish students, says she has no regrets about her decision.

"I knew that it was imperative for me to spend an extended period of time in Israel so that I could promote Israel from my own experience," Kraus says. "I would have liked to stay for a whole year, but I couldn't take the chance because there was no way of ensuring that my credit would transfer."

After some intensive lobbying, and a great deal of luck, the University of Indiana agreed to cancel the punishment and accept Kraus back into the program.

U.S. Jewish groups are convinced that the universities' policy is not motivated by anti-Israel sentiment, but by fear of being sued should something happen to one of their students.

"Universities aren't doing this out of anti-Israel animus," says Wayne Firestone, executive director of the Israel Campus Coalition (ICC), an umbrella organization that represents some 40 Jewish student bodies. "It stems out of concern and a certain amount of misinformation."

Aaron Goldberg, associate director of the ICC, says that each university has formulated its own policy, based on the advice of its attorneys. Some universities have stopped short of imposing a ban, preferring instead to issue a travel warning and refusing to recognize study in Israel as part of a degree course. Other universities have informed students wishing to travel to Israel that they would have to drop out of their course. Some schools even banned organizations that promote travel to Israel, such as birthright, from holding activities on campus.

At the start of the current semester, ICC launched a nationwide campaign to try to persuade the universities to change their policy. According to Goldberg, the decision to begin campaigning was only taken of late because "there is a recognition that the situation that many people thought would continue for a year or two, might continue indefinitely."

The campaign - "Let Our Students Go" - is sponsored by the ICC and enjoys the full financial and structural support of the Jewish community, including, among other organizations, the United Jewish Communities (UJC), AIPAC, Hillel, and the Conference of Presidents.

Those behind the campaign are encouraging groups of Jewish students to actively lobby their respective universities to allow them to travel to Israel, since they believe that "pressure from below" has proved to be a most effective method of bringing about change. At this point, the ICC isn't even pushing for a resumption of the universities' formal programs and is hoping to simply create a possibility whereby students who sign a legal waiver can study here "at their own risk" without having to battle their college bureaucracies and forfeit their student status.

One of the campaign's first successes was at Michigan State, where student activist Jen Bloom got unofficial word that the university had overturned its ban - a report that the university would not confirm.

Sanctions on the part of the universities are only part of the pressures that these students face. Social pressure can be just as taxing, say some who have already been here. Of the estimated 300,000 Jewish students in American universities, the vast majority has no interest in studying in Israel. Many who have been here say that their peers do not understand or accept their desire to study in Israel. Jennifer Kraus' best friend cut off all contact when she learned that Kraus was planning to come to Israel, while the father of another student vehemently objected to her going to study in Be'er Sheva.

"He only agreed when I explained to him that the alternatives were much more dangerous," Kraus says.

Oleh
Jan 8th, 2005, 08:46 PM
Hey Volcana,
Yeah I read this article too a few days back, it just go's to make me think that the far left college students todays are:
A) THE most Ignorant, uniformed people in the World
B) Have NO problem with being complete and utter Hypocrates when "Israel" (Yeah right) is involved.
C) Are some of the most hate filled people in the world using a political context to shrowed their own biggotry. Then hide under the "Im not anti semetic just because I hate Israel"...go to point B then justify it with the (Lack of) same sanctions on China (Of Tibet), Syria (Of Lebanon) , Iran (Of their own people), Russia (Of Chechnya), Indonesia (Of Acheh and West Papua), Morrocco (Of Western Sahara)and im sure there are plenty more of "Occupiers" and "Tyrants" of the likes...yet none of these "Opressors" are Jewish or Subject to reprisals via TERRORISM/ AKA MURDER of civilians or used to be the "Underdog" (but when the tides changes it caused a media blood frennzy which took all the blind and ignorant of the later generations who cant remember anything else with them.)
US colleges have Looooooong histories with blatant Anti Jewish policy, even before Israel came along-when this happens youll excuse me for not thinking it anything new of these bigoted leftists. The only way to be accepted by them as Jewish is to forfeit ALL right to you homeland which is A PILLAR OF THE RELIGION and all active parts of being Religious etc. Their greatest hero is a Jew who hates himself-and thats not anti semetic?

Thats my personal theory shared with many people, However you look at it these people are fucked in the head. It would make more sense to do as you say, but try and tell that to a racist. Israel is more than safe to study in and our unversities are world class-theses people should remember all that came out of them that they take for granted.

Volcana
Jan 9th, 2005, 12:06 AM
Hey Volcana,
Yeah I read this article too a few days back, it just go's to make me think that the far left college students todays are:
A) THE most Ignorant, uniformed people in the World
B) Have NO problem with being complete and utter Hypocrates when "Israel" (Yeah right) is involved.
C) Are some of the most hate filled people in the world using a political context to shrowed their own biggotry. Then hide under the "Im not anti semetic just because I hate Israel"...go to point B then justify it with the (Lack of) same sanctions on China (Of Tibet), Syria (Of Lebanon) , Iran (Of their own people), Russia (Of Chechnya), Indonesia (Of Acheh and West Papua), Morrocco (Of Western Sahara)and im sure there are plenty more of "Occupiers" and "Tyrants" of the likes...yet none of these "Opressors" are Jewish or Subject to reprisals via TERRORISM/ AKA MURDER of civilians or used to be the "Underdog" (but when the tides changes it caused a media blood frennzy which took all the blind and ignorant of the later generations who cant remember anything else with them.)
US colleges have Looooooong histories with blatant Anti Jewish policy, even before Israel came along-when this happens youll excuse me for not thinking it anything new of these bigoted leftists. The only way to be accepted by them as Jewish is to forfeit ALL right to you homeland which is A PILLAR OF THE RELIGION and all active parts of being Religious etc. Their greatest hero is a Jew who hates himself-and thats not anti semetic?

Thats my personal theory shared with many people, However you look at it these people are fucked in the head. It would make more sense to do as you say, but try and tell that to a racist. Israel is more than safe to study in and our unversities are world class-theses people should remember all that came out of them that they take for granted.Don't conflate the students and the University.

1) People sue at the drop of a hat here. Fear of lawsuits IS likely part of the reason for the policy.

2) This isn't Europe. We don't HAVE 'leftists' here in any great number. Richard Nixon, at least measured by his policies, would be called a 'leftist' today. Barry Goldwater MIGHT be centrist, but his views on some social issues would be called 'leftist' today. What would be called firm RIGHT-wingers run most American universities. Yes university culture in the USA is to the left of the culture as a whole. But is that not universal?

Also, in this country, a hefty percentage of the left has historically BEEN Jewish.

3) You have to make some allowance for what's in the news. Israel gets COVERED by American media. Anyone who watches TV knows some of what goes on there. China, in relation to Tibet, Syria, in relation to Lebanon) ,Iran, Indonesia, Morrocco, those things aren't onthe news or in the newspaper. You have to dig for that. Many people are only AWARE of what goes on in Israel because that news is handed to them. Tey aren't being hypocritical. They just don't make much of an effort to find out about world events.

4) You're absolutely right about the history of the policies of American universities vis-a-vis Israel. however, I disagree with this statement.
"The only way to be accepted by them as Jewish is to forfeit ALL right to you homeland which is A PILLAR OF THE RELIGION and all active parts of being Religious etc."Now, I went to Cornell and Columbia, both of which have fairly large Jewish populations in the student body, in the professorship, and onthe board. And, of course, Columbia is in New York city, which has a fairly substantial Jewish population. Perhaps those universities aren't the most representative examples.

But they are the examples I'm most familiar with, and, using them as examples, I'd have to say your attack on the American left, as represented at the university level, is, at best, overly broad.

They have a saying in the States, more among southern Blacks than anyone else. I'll paraphrase cause you aren't local.

"Northern American white hates American Black as individuals, but love them as a group.
Southern American whites love American Black as individuals, but hate them as a group."

You might use a similar construction vis-a-vis Americans, Jews and Israel. It doesn't work NEARLY as well, but ...

"What we CALL the 'far right' in America, hates Jews, but loves Israel
What we CALL the 'far left' in America, loves Jews, but hates Israel"

Bearing in mind we don't actually HAVE a 'far left' in America.

Their greatest hero is a Jew who hates himself-and thats not anti semetic?Who?

Oleh
Jan 9th, 2005, 06:40 AM
historically BEEN Jewish= Historicaly is the word. Now the only way to be left and Jewish is as i said before to cast off your very Jewish beliefs.

people are only AWARE of what goes on in Israel because that news is handed to them. Tey aren't being hypocritical. They just don't make much of an effort to find out about world events.
-They are hypocritical. Ignorance isnt anyones fault but ones own. If you dont look to open your eyes you cant blame someone else for closing them. Look at NAZI Germany-a bunch of blind morons being told one thing and buying it without looking for the other side-then look at the consequences. Ignorant people have no excuse-Ignorance as it seems makes the real name of the feelings and beliefs feel warmer at night. I mean if I were racist, it would be so much nicer to turn my back on the lynchings in my back yard and when people ask why, to say I did not see(..only hear.)

Bearing in mind we don't actually HAVE a 'far left' in America.
-"Sharon and Hitler just the same the only difference is the name". San Fran Gay march-There were symbols of a Magen David in a Swastika-Yes the far left are everywhere. Perhaps not as untame as their euro counterparts, but each has their own version of "Lefties".


Who?
-Noam Chomsky, these universities greatrest Hero I think he is a Harvard professor.He observes nothing, he rejects Israel, he denounces Jews and slanders rabbis while flinging UNFOUNDED and UNPROOVED allegations/ slander at all Jews and then claims when the critics come en masse, "But I am a Jew". Noam, you were a Jew at Birth, since that you have rejected us so we will reject you. Noam to me is a Goy.

For more information on this subject I suggest you read up on works by Naomi Ragen (VERY good-ill see if i can find her website, i just get her emails) and Alan Dershowitz, One of Americas top civil liberarians who seem to agree with my stance, or I theirs. I admit I worded it harshly but I assure you it would be 100X worse if it were about say Oxford university!

Volcana
Jan 9th, 2005, 12:44 PM
historically BEEN Jewish= Historicaly is the word. Now the only way to be left and Jewish is as i said before to cast off your very Jewish beliefs.I can only say that isn't my experience. Again, I live in, and went to school in, and, as I think of it, have pretty much ALWAYS lived the 'lefty' areas of the USA in places with large Jewish populations. The fact that I know Jews so far to the left that they, like me, have left the Dmeocratic party because it's too far right may just be a matter of having a large sample.
people are only AWARE of what goes on in Israel because that news is handed to them. Tey aren't being hypocritical. They just don't make much of an effort to find out about world events.-They are hypocritical. Ignorance isnt anyones fault but ones own.I'm not holding them blameless. I'm just saying ignorance isn't hipocracy. Saying 'the world is flat' is NOT hypocritical, even if the knowledge that the world is round is available to you with some effort. It makes you ignorant to the point of being dangerous, I concede. But being hypocritical is ultimately a form of dilerate dishonesty. Well, as I define it.
if I were racist, it would be so much nicer to turn my back on the lynchings in my back yard and when people ask why, to say I did not see(..only hear.)Therein lies the difference. To turn your back on the lynchings, you have to know about them. The tsunami was the first time most Amricans heard the world 'Malaysia' since high school geography.
-"Sharon and Hitler just the same the only difference is the name". San Fran Gay march-There were symbols of a Magen David in a Swastika-Yes the far left are everywhere. Perhaps not as untame as their euro counterparts, but each has their own version of "Lefties".Again, I must same you paint with too braod a brush. As you've probably noticed, some people around here consider ME a be 'leftist' (I'm a progessive centist, of course. Meaning I'm tight, and everyone else is wrong.:)), and I wouldn't be caught dead marching with a banner that said that. If you found me near it, it would aruing with the people holding it.

I object to Sharon, but last I checked, he wasn't killing people in 10,000 unit lots after working them alomst to death.
Noam Chomsky, these universities greatrest Hero I think he is a Harvard professor.Ah. I'm familiar with Chomsky. I've read som of his stuff. I would NOT, however, have called him the American lefts 'greatest hero'.
He observes nothingI do not agree. Chomsky's appeal in the States is his challenges to AMERICAN social and political structures. He observes a good deal, and he does think critically. I do not consider him without flaw, but I've found he's a good person to have people read to get them to 'think outside the box' politically. People can be wrong about important things, and still be right about important things. Paul Robeson was wrong about the Soviet Union. That didn't make him any less right in his criticism of the United States.
he rejects IsraelWell, here we must agree to disagree. I simply don't hold 'Israel' and 'Jews' to be one and the same. You can reject Israel without rejecting, although I have to concede, it's pretty rare to find informed people who reject one without the other.

This is where terminology can hurt us. Like 'human shields' vs. 'We lose men if we try to kill them with infantry, so we bombed the apratment building'.

To some people (not you, necessarily) 'reject Israel' means 'supports the 'right of return for Palestinians'.

For that matter, your 'Israel is under attack, is some Palestinians, 'we're defending ourselves from the Israelis with the only means at our disposal'.

The terminology used is too often simplistic, and insufficiently descriptive.

(BTW, that's why your providing so many sources for Palestinian children 'being trained to be suicide bombers' was good. I could reject a lot of them as being Israeli propaganda, but, since I took the time to pursue them, I found I couldn't reject ALL of them. We got pst the terminology and into the facts)

he denounces Jews and slanders rabbis while flinging UNFOUNDED and UNPROOVED allegations/ slander at all Jews and then claims when the critics come en masse, "But I am a Jew". Noam, you were a Jew at Birth, since that you have rejected us so we will reject you. Noam to me is a Goy.Thanks. Just because you think the guy 'denounces Jews and slanders rabbis while flinging UNFOUNDED and UNPROOVED allegations/ slander at all Jews', WE get him.:) Why shouldn't YOU be stuck with him? American Blacks don't get to make Clarance Thomas white.:)

Seriously, just for my edification, provide me with some examples of this. Chomsky actually comes up in discussions in my circles, and I'd be more than happy to throw those examples into the mix.

Oleh
Jan 9th, 2005, 10:40 PM
I can only say that isn't my experience. Again, I live in, and went to school in, and, as I think of it, have pretty much ALWAYS lived the 'lefty' areas of the USA in places with large Jewish populations. The fact that I know Jews so far to the left that they, like me, have left the Dmeocratic party because it's too far right may just be a matter of having a large sample

-How Orthodox are these Jews? How many are Jews by birth? (I can guess;))

Saying 'the world is flat' is hypocritical, even if the knowledge that the world is round is available to you with some effort.-These people call Israel NAZIS, even when the knowledge is there that we are not. These people call us the biggest opressors, even when in comparison we are not. You wonder why China dosnt have a war going on in tibet or Indonesia in Papua...Not because the people dont want one.

Therein lies the difference. To turn your back on the lynchings, you have to know about them. The tsunami was the first time most Amricans heard the world 'Malaysia' since high school geography.-Yes you just pretend to yourself that you don't. These people know (They can not be retarded literally) theres another side but just make sure they look the other way. When Palestine does wrong they turn the other way, when Israel does good they turn the other way, but when its visa versa they are up in arms.

Again, I must same you paint with too braod a brush. As you've probably noticed, some people around here consider ME a be 'leftist' (I'm a progessive centist, of course. Meaning I'm tight, and everyone else is wrong.), and I wouldn't be caught dead marching with a banner that said that. If you found me near it, it would aruing with the people holding it.

-But it shows that the US DOES have far leftists which you said they didnt :p

He observes nothing

-Lol, no thats not what i meant. Religiously he does not observe Hallakah (The Jewish Religious way of life)..Our culture gets complicated but when secularist try to represent our religion we get offended. The disregard the religion which is the whole reason we are Jews in the first place but they call them self YJewish!?

Oh and when I say "Rejects israel" I mean this literally in a simple way. He has rejected its RIGHT TO EXIST since 1948, even when we were the underdog. He simply dosnt want to see a state of Israel.

Thanks. Just because you think the guy 'denounces Jews and slanders rabbis while flinging UNFOUNDED and UNPROOVED allegations/ slander at all Jews', WE get him
Thats just his personality which the Left takes without questioning. Its not a case of being suck with him, as it is choosing him. (Which many have, he is popular on the college circut these days in "Middle East" talks or more to the point very one sided Israel bashing talks! We dont choose him as he does not WANT to be with us!!! Choice not force!!

Ill see what I can find Chomsky wise, im sure ive got some of them saved somewhere.

In the mean time read "A case for Israel" by Alan Dershowitz-You would love this book and it has evrything, in a short direct, well backed way.

Oleh
Jan 9th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Oh Ive tried www.naomiragen.com but it wont appear..im not sure if its moved or something all I have are her emails!!

Oleh
Jan 9th, 2005, 10:56 PM
http://www.wernercohn.com/Chomsky.html
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/chomsky.htm

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V122/N25/col25dersh.25c.html -Exactly relevant to the divestment situation.
COLUMN

Chomsky’s Immoral Divestiture Petition
Guest Column
Alan M. Dershowitz
Who is Noam Chomsky and why is he seeking to compel universities to divest from corporations that have ties to Israel? I have known Noam Chomsky for more than thirty years. I have debated him on numerous occasions, and I have written extensively about his zealous anti-Zionism and his flirtations with neo-Nazi revisionism and Holocaust denial. I was not surprised therefore to learn that he is the inspiration behind the foolish and immoral campaign for divestiture.

I first debated Chomsky in 1973, several weeks after the Yom Kippur War. Chomsky’s proposal at that time was consistent with the PLO party line. He wanted to abolish the state of Israel, and to substitute a “secular, binational state,” based on the model of binational “brotherhood” that then prevailed in Lebanon. Chomsky repeatedly pointed to Lebanon, where Christians and Muslims “lived side by side,” sharing power in peace and harmony. This was just a few years before Lebanon imploded in fratricidal disaster.

This is what I said about Chomsky’s hare-brained scheme in our 1973 debate: “Putting aside the motivations behind such a proposal when it is made by the Palestinian organizations, why do not considerations of self-determination and community control favor two separate states: one Jewish and one Arab? Isn’t it better for people of common background to control their own life, culture, and destiny (if they so choose), than to bring together in an artificial way people who have shown no ability to live united in peace. I confess to not understanding the logic of the proposal, even assuming its good will.”

My counterproposal was that “Israel should declare, in principle, its willingness to give up the captured territories in return for a firm assurance of lasting peace. By doing so, it would make clear what I think the vast majority of Israelis believe: it has no interest in retaining the territories for any reason other than protection from attack.”

Chomsky rejected my proposal out of hand. He characterized it as a mere return to the “colonialist status quo.” Only the dismantling of the colonialist Jewish state would satisfy the PLO, and only the creation of a secular, binational Palestine in “all of Palestine” would satisfy Chomsky.

My next encounter with Chomsky revolved around his writing an introduction to a book by an anti-Semite named Robert Faurisson who denied that the Holocaust took place, that Hitler’s gas chambers existed, that the diary of Anne Frank was authentic, and that there were death camps in Nazi occupied Europe. He claimed that the “massive lie” about genocide was a deliberate concoction initiated by “American Zionists” “and that “the Jews” were responsible for World War II. Chomsky described these and other conclusions as “findings” and said that they were based on “extensive historical research.” He also wrote that “I see no anti-Semitic implication in the denial of the existence in gas chambers or even in the denial of the Holocaust.” He said he saw “no hint of anti-Semitic implications in Faurisson’s work,” including his claim that “the Jews” were responsible for World War II. He wrote an introduction to one of Faurisson’s book which was used to market his anti-Semitic lies.

In a subsequent debate at the Harvard Medical School, Chomsky initially denied having advocated a Lebanon-style binational state for Israel, only to have to back down upon being confronted with the evidence. He also tried to dispute the fact that he had authorized an essay he had written in defense of Robert Faurisson to be used as the forward to Faurisson’s book about Holocaust denial, but again had to back down. Chomsky took the position that he had no interest in “revisionist” literature before Faurisson had written the book. When confronted by Robert Nozick, a distinguished philosophy professor who recalled discussing revisionist literature with him well before the Faurisson book, Chomsky first berated Nozick for disclosing a private conversation and then he shoved him contemptuously in front of numerous witnesses.

This then is the man who is leading the campaign for divesture against Israel. He is joined in this ignoble effort by some who would take the money now invested in the Mideast’s only democracy and have it sent to Iraq, Libya, Syria, Cuba, the Palestinian Authority, and others who support and finance terrorism. He is also joined by a motley assortment of knee-jerk anti-Zionists, rabid Anti-Americans, radical leftists (the Spartacist League), people with little knowledge of the history of the Arab-Israeli dispute, and even some of Chomsky’s former students who now teach in Israel.

There is no intellectually or morally defensible case for singling out Israel for divestiture, and I challenge Chomsky to debate me on the morality of this selective attack against an American ally that is defending itself -- and the world -- against terrorism that targets civilians. Universities invest in a wide array of companies that have operations in countries that systematically violate the human rights of millions of people. Nor are these countries defending themselves against those who would destroy them and target their civilians. Yet this petition focused only on the Jewish State, to the exclusion of all others, including those which, by any reasonable standard, are among the worst violators of human rights. This is bigotry pure and simple, and those who signed the petition should be ashamed of themselves and shamed by others.

Alan M. Dershowitz is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard University.

Oleh
Jan 9th, 2005, 10:57 PM
http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/news/27sep2002a.asp

Also good re: Devestment

DERSHOWITZ ARTICLE
------------------

A Challenge to House Master Hanson

By ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
September 23, 2002

In my 38 years of teaching at Harvard Law School, I don't recall ever writing in praise of any action by a Harvard president, but this time I must congratulate President Lawrence H. Summers for his willingness to say out loud what many of us in the Harvard community have long believed: namely, that singling out Israel, among all the countries in the world, for divestment, is an action which is anti-Semitic in effect, if not in intent.

A recent open letter by one of the signatories made it clear that he regards Israel as the "pariah" state, a word historically used by anti-Semites to characterize the Jewish people. As an advocate and practitioner of human rights throughout the world, I can confidently assert that Israel's record on human rights is among the best, especially among nations that have confronted comparable threats. Though far from perfect, Israel has shown extraordinary concern for avoiding civilian casualties in its half-century effort to protect its civilians from terrorism. Jordan killed more Palestinians in a single month than Israel has between 1948 and the present.

Israel has the only independent judiciary in the entire Middle East. Its Supreme Court, one of the most highly regarded in the world, is the only court in the Middle East from which an Arab or a Muslim can expect justice, as many have found in winning dozens of victories against the Israeli government, the Israeli military and individual Israeli citizens. There is no more important component in the protection of human rights and civil liberties than an independent judiciary willing to stand up to its own government. I challenge the proponents of divestment to name a court in any Arab or Muslim country that is comparable to the Israeli Supreme Court. Israel is the only country in the region that has virtually unlimited freedom of speech. Any person in Israel whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian can criticize the Israeli government and its leaders. No citizen of any other Middle Eastern or Muslim state can do that without fear of imprisonment or death.

Israel is the only country that has openly confronted the difficult issue of protecting the civil liberties of the ticking bomb terrorist. The Israeli Supreme Court recently ruled that despite the potential benefits of employing non-lethal torture to extract information, the tactic is illegal. Brutal torture, including lethal torture, is commonplace in nearly every other Middle Eastern and Muslim country. Indeed, American authorities sometimes send suspects to Egypt, Jordan and the Philippines precisely because they know that they will be tortured in those countries. Nor is Israel the only country that is occupying lands claimed by others. China, Russia, Turkey, Iraq, Spain, France and numerous other countries control not only land, but people who seek independence. Indeed, among these countries Israel is the only one that has offered statehood, first in 1948 when the Palestinians rejected the UN partition which would have given them a large, independent state and chose instead to invade Israel. Again in the year 2000 Palestinians were offered a state, rejected it and employed terrorism.

There are, of course, difficult issues to be resolved in the Middle East. These include the future of the settlements, the establishment of Palestinian self-governance and the prevention of terrorism. These issues will require compromise on all sides. Members of the Harvard community must be free to criticize Israel when they disagree with its policies or actions, as they criticize any other country in the world whose record is not perfect. But to single out the Jewish state of Israel, as if it were the worst human rights offender, is bigotry pure and simple. It would be comparable to singling out a black nation for de-legitimation without mentioning worse abuses by white nations. Those who sign the divestment petition should be ashamed of themselves. If they are not, it is up to others to shame them.

Among those who signed this immoral petition was Winthrop House Master Paul Hanson. I wrote to Prof. Hanson challenging him to debate me in the Common Room of Winthrop House about his decision to sign the petition. He refused, citing "other priorities." I can imagine few priorities more pressing than to justify to his students why he is willing to single out Israel for special criticism. Accordingly, I hereby request an invitation from the students of Winthrop House to conduct such a debate, either with Hanson present or with an empty chair on which the petition which he signed would be featured. Universities should encourage widespread debate and discussion about divisive and controversial issues. A House master who peremptorily signs a petition and then hides behind "other priorities" does not serve the interests of dialogue and education. I hope that Hanson will accept my challenge, and that if he does not, that I will be invited by his students to help fill the educational gap left by the cowardice of those who have signed this petition and refuse to defend their actions in public debate.

Let me propose an alternative to singling out Israel for divestment: let Harvard choose nations for investment in the order of the human rights records. If that were done, investment in Israel would increase dramatically, while investments in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Philippines, Indonesia, the Palestinian Authority and most other countries of the world would decrease markedly.

Alan M. Dershowitz is Frankfurter professor of law at Harvard Law School.

Volcana
Jan 10th, 2005, 02:29 AM
-How Orthodox are these Jews? How many are Jews by birth? (I can guess;))I probably can't answer that question, if you mean it in the same sense as 'How observant are they?' They SEEM observant to ME, but not being Jewish, nor a scholar of Judaism, how up on the details can I be.
-These people call Israel NAZIS, even when the knowledge is there that we are not. These people call us the biggest opressors, even when in comparison we are not. You wonder why China dosnt have a war going on in tibet or Indonesia in Papua...Not because the people dont want one.Your passion on the subject is clear, however again, you paint with too broad a brush. In the process, you alienate people who could be allies.
-Yes you just pretend to yourself that you don't. These people know (They can not be retarded literally) theres another side but just make sure they look the other way. When Palestine does wrong they turn the other way, when Israel does good they turn the other way, but when its visa versa they are up in arms.Oleh, how many people do YOU know don't understand the Palestinians have legitemate grievances? Are they all just just deliberately ignoring that? Or do some of them literally NOT KNOW?
-But it shows that the US DOES have far leftists which you said they didnt :pTouche:). But I'm 46 years old. When I was first exposed to politics (admittedly early since my father was ahistory professor, 'leftists' were COMMUNISTS. FAR leftists carried around 'the little red book' and quoted it verbatim.
-Lol, no thats not what i meant. Religiously he does not observe ....Ah.
Oh and when I say "Rejects israel" I mean this literally in a simple way. He has rejected its RIGHT TO EXIST since 1948, even when we were the underdog. He simply dosnt want to see a state of Israel.Ah, again. That's just unrealistic. The current boundaries of the middle east were shaped by warfare. Mostly early 20 Century warfare, actually. The Mufti of Palestine seekinghelp form the Nazis was a serious historical blunder. Of course, he was supporting the uprising against the British in Palestine at the time, but the British controlled the area militarily, and divided it up the way they wanted on the out.

Israel has the same right to exist as any country carved up out of colonialism. Which is only most of the countries in the world, when you get right down to it. Even the most ardent opponents of current Israeli policy have to concede the right of the country to exist.

Otherwise, you call into question almost every geo-political boundary in the world. The right of return is a sticking point, but that's a separate issue.

Thanks for all the Chomsky stuff.

Justeenium
Jan 10th, 2005, 07:32 AM
"What we CALL the 'far right' in America, hates Jews, but loves Israel
What we CALL the 'far left' in America, loves Jews, but hates Israel"

?

No, the far right in America hates Jews and hates Israel.

Have you ever heard of the War in Iraq being dubbed the War for Israel rather than the war for oil as europe sees it?

Oleh
Jan 10th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Israel has the same right to exist as any country carved up out of colonialism. Which is only most of the countries in the world, when you get right down to it. Even the most ardent opponents of current Israeli policy have to concede the right of the country to exist.

Not Noam and his cronies, they want a country simililar to Lebanon, Jewish and Arab, Israel and Palestine as one. Look at what happened to Lebanon and what was happening when it was "Jewish and arab"-It dosnt work yet they are the ones who are unrealistic. Thus they do not accept the state of Israel which is ironic as many of the ultra Orthodox dont accept it as anything more then Eretz Yisroael as its not Jewish enough!...Its a complicated issue, but there are those on both sides who want to see the State of Israel no more in a political sense. (Erez Yisrael will not disapear though).

Oleh, how many people do YOU know don't understand the Palestinians have legitemate grievances? Are they all just just deliberately ignoring that? Or do some of them literally NOT KNOW?
Most people I know (98 or 9 out of 10) are more than aware. Some are victems of Palestinian terror themselves, but they know. Today in Israel people are most definately waking up even the majority of West Bank settlers know that a Palestinian state is overdue and needed, BUT they expect for Israel to hold on to some key settlements (Which is practicle a total evacuation would cost more than US$3 TRILLION and no one has that much money.) in exchange for land around Gaza most probably. The 1967 borders are for 1967 politics. Its 2005.
But yes there are many who choose to ignore the time its taking and seem to think of the Palestinians as imps in the back ground even but they at least know the facts but moronicly choose to ignore/snub them. Israeli socity is really quite liberal-those people are a minority. Remember the only reason Likud is in is because its signed deals with everyone including shinui!!! (A leftist party) and Shas!! (A verrrry far right part)!-Its logic tha t only works in Israel;)

But I'm 46 years old. When I was first exposed to politics (admittedly early since my father was ahistory professor, 'leftists' were COMMUNISTS. FAR leftists carried around 'the little red book' and quoted it verbatim.

Ah, Thats fair enough. I'm young and work for a Law firm that deals closely with the Israeli Justice System-So im pretty passionate about my work!! These days "Lefty" pretty much means libertarians who are boardering on anarchist who just want no conformity and reject anyone and everyone who does not conform to their ideals! Far leftists these days are just as likely to torch a Synagogue as Far rights as in Europe-its a crazy world.

Seriously Volcana, read "The Case for Israel"-I cant stress it enough. Its watertight evidence (unlike any ive ever seen in an Israel politics book)that simply counters all the allegations agianst Israel where they are not called for. Its realistic and Objective-a pleasant treat in todays climate. Go to your library they are bound to have it. Be warned by the end of it you feel depressed and helpless to know the facts of what this world is realy like (On both sides) but masked under a vail of "political wording"..

No, the far right in America hates Jews and hates Israel.
"Sharon and Hitler Just the same only differene is the name"
"Death to Israel"
"The Jews control the media"
...all by leftists, democrats, liberals...anything but the far right as they claim..yet how far left can you go before going right back to the right? Hitler was a Socialist, Stalin a Commie, both that can be considered Leftist even though they were Nationalist. And they were both Anti Semetic. And they were both Evil.

Dave B
Jan 10th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Interesting discussion you guys. I have little to add as I find this whole issue very heart-breaking and difficult for me to take a stand on, but what you say Volcana, as usual, makes a lot of since. Two things:

1) You went to Columbia? That is where I go now! I love it. GO LIONS!

2) I can agree with Volcana in that there are many Jewish students who attend my school and support Israel but are also very leftist in other ways (e.g. hate bush, vote democratic). I am also fairly sure that Columbia lets them study in Israel...unless a few of my friends are breaking the rules :devil:

Thats it. Volcana, you seem like a way cool person. I started thinking that a long time ago, and everything I read just confirms it. And now you are an alum too? Wicked!

EDIT: Just because I go to Columbia doesn't mean I am grammer having

Volcana
Jan 10th, 2005, 09:51 PM
Interesting discussion you guys. I have little to add as I find this whole issue very heart-breaking and difficult for me to take a stand on, but what you say Volcana, as usual, makes a lot of since. Two things:

1) You went to Columbia? That is where I go now! I love it. GO LIONS!I loved going to Columbia. Especially since you're so close to the Lincoln Center, and the museums, and the subway goes everywhere. It's a hell of a place to go to school.

Thats it. Volcana, you seem like a way cool person.Thank you. It's not an opinion universally shared, but that's probably all to the good. Around here, I say, feel free to be as contentious as you like, just back it up with facts. Oleh is a good model. He'll drown you in facts to back up a position.:)

Oleh - I'll definitely be looking for 'The Case for Israel".

Justeenium
Jan 10th, 2005, 10:10 PM
are you going to respond to my post Volcana?

Oleh
Jan 11th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Oleh is a good model. He'll drown you in facts to back up a position.
I learn from the best ;)


(Off subject but I remember you asking baout Israel and South Africa in previous posts, I am very close to South Africa personaly and just remembered to get round to that point. The only reason Israel kept up relations with an apartheid South Africa is because it would not leave our Jewish community stranded! Back then it was between 80-100,000 Jews (I think), one of the largest Jewish populatons in the world, now its only about 40,000 to 50,000 though..everyone livs in Israel or Australia now. I wouldnt say we were ally's but Israel was there for us more than the Government. Hardcore Afrikaaner apartheidniks were anti-jewish too, and our Jewish community was the most sympathtethic "White" group to the Blacks and we helped alot too-Racial oppresion is and was something we knew too much about)