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tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Grafanatics vs Selesians/Navratilovers war is raging in the forum......
What do you think about that? most of you are neutral?

here the troops currently in action:

Graf: Calimero, frauleinsteffi,steffilover
sel/Nav: Greatest, czechfan, tennilover, bandabou

Philbo
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:18 PM
The whole Nav/Seles vs Graf crowd wars had pretty much died down on these boards until the last few months when Calimero started posting.

He posts amazingly bullshit facts, the most one sided, insecure, fanatical account of the early 90's to the point where his thoughts and opinions are just laughable.

Most Graf/Nav/Seles supporters realised that the debates are endless and noone convinces anyone on the other side to change their opinions so theres no real point to it.

But because Calimero leads such a pathetic existence, he admittedly comes to the boards just to fight with Nav/Seles fans. So theres your explanation as to why these threads have popped up all over the place again.

faboozadoo15
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:22 PM
i think it has a lot to do with it being the offseason. it happens nearly every year. it just shows how important in tennis history a few events and a few players are to every true tennis fan by just the fact that we're still arguing over it today.

selking
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:24 PM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.

Philbo
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:39 PM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.
Couldnt have said it any better myself..

The thing is that he is trying to win people over to believing in Graf as the best ever.. But he does himself a disservice by being so completely paranoid and delusional in his opinions that you cant have any intelligent debate.

Kart
Dec 6th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Grafanatics vs Selesians/Navratilovians war is raging in the forum......
What do you think about that?
It's nothing new. A recent influx of mad people - on both sides - are perpetuating something that's been going on for years, although I've not seen it as vicious as it's been recently for ages.

It's never going to stop.

bandabou
Dec 6th, 2004, 02:43 AM
It´s just the everlasting saga: some selestials who come up with accounts just to keep calling Graf/ Parche a great combination.....and the you get Cali who can´t control himself...

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:07 AM
I respect Seles & both Martinas & Chrissie all great players I do have to stand up for Steffi/Jen when needed I just dont like Steffi being seen as a villian & Monica as the sole heroine..Steffi did not want Monica Stabbed or Monicas Dad to die of cancer both heartbreaking things & she was an unwilling victim in the saga as well I do feel sympathy for Monica & Steffi both a madman tried to kill/injure Monica & Steffi is blamed indirectly for it.....Steffi had terrible things done to her as well ( not counting her back/bone spurs & knee surgery & the affair concerning her Dad in 1990 & the tax scandal 95-96) witbut of course not like the stabbing Steffi had a crazy guy slash his wrists in front her & someone sent her a jar of poisoned marmalade too....Steffi said she has talked to Esther Seles & she said in a interview in Tennis magazine she wants to talk with Monica & try to befriend her..Monica said in another interview that their(hers & Steffis) relationship did end in ruins that when Monica sees Andre & Steffi & Their kids shes glad theyre happy & In love & wishes them the best.......I think they respect each other & of course Martina & steffi respect each other...I read in 1993 at the VS Championships Graf greeted Navi after her OF match with Mary but kissing her on the cheeks & giving her a beautiful bracelet as a gift...point being Im not here to disrespect anyone but to just defend my faves when unfair things are said or implied about them....I still think Steffi is the best ever & Navi & Evert & Court & Seles & King are among the few others that can challenge that claim legitmately:)
Steffis record is awesome....

Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

selking
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:09 AM
I respect Seles & both Martinas & Chrissie all great players I do have to stand up for Steffi/Jen when needed I just dont like Steffi being seen as a villian & Monica as the sole heroine..Steffi did not want Monica Stabbed & she was an unwilling victim in the saga as well I do feel sympathy for Monica & steffi both a madman tried to kill/injure Monica & Steffi is blamed indirectly for it.....Steffi had terrible things to her as well but of course not like the stabbing Steffi had a crazy guy slash his wrists in front her & someone sent her a jar of poisoned marmalade too....Steffi said she has talked to Esther Seles & she said in a interview in Tennis magazine she wants to talk with Monica & try to befriend her..Monica said in another interview that their(hers & Steffis) relationship did end in ruins that when Monica sees Andre & Steffi & Their kids shes glad theyre happy & In love & wishes them the best.......I think they respect each other & of course Martina & steffi respect each other...I read in 1993 at the VS Championships Graf greeted Navi after her OF match with Mary but kissing her on the cheeks & giving her a beautiful bracelet as a gift...point being Im not here to disrespect anyone but to just defend my faves when unfair things are said or implied about them....I still think Steffi is the best ever & Navi & Evert & Court & Seles & King are among the few others that can challenge that claim legitmately:)
Steffis record is awesome....

Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

wow what a waste of your life. There 20 minutes that you'll never get back

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:11 AM
okay I cant win I get that :)

selking
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:13 AM
maybe you can, idk, I didnt even bother to read that crap. I allready know that Steffi is not the greatest and nothing anyone is going to say will change that.

Philbo
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:14 AM
I respect Seles & both Martinas & Chrissie all great players I do have to stand up for Steffi/Jen when needed I just dont like Steffi being seen as a villian & Monica as the sole heroine..Steffi did not want Monica Stabbed or Monicas Dad to die of cancer both heartbreaking things & she was an unwilling victim in the saga as well I do feel sympathy for Monica & Steffi both a madman tried to kill/injure Monica & Steffi is blamed indirectly for it.....Steffi had terrible things done to her as well ( not counting her back/bone spurs & knee surgery & the affair concerning her Dad in 1990 & the tax scandal 95-96) witbut of course not like the stabbing Steffi had a crazy guy slash his wrists in front her & someone sent her a jar of poisoned marmalade too....Steffi said she has talked to Esther Seles & she said in a interview in Tennis magazine she wants to talk with Monica & try to befriend her..Monica said in another interview that their(hers & Steffis) relationship did end in ruins that when Monica sees Andre & Steffi & Their kids shes glad theyre happy & In love & wishes them the best.......I think they respect each other & of course Martina & steffi respect each other...I read in 1993 at the VS Championships Graf greeted Navi after her OF match with Mary but kissing her on the cheeks & giving her a beautiful bracelet as a gift...point being Im not here to disrespect anyone but to just defend my faves when unfair things are said or implied about them....I still think Steffi is the best ever & Navi & Evert & Court & Seles & King are among the few others that can challenge that claim legitmately:)
Steffis record is awesome....

Why Steffi Graf is the greatest ever.

· Steffi is the ONLY player (man or woman) to have won a Golden Grand Slam - winning the four Grand Slam titles - the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and the US Open - in a single calendar year - 1988. In that year, Steffi also won the Olympic Gold Medal in Seoul - hence the name Golden Grand Slam.
·Steffi has won her 22 Grand Slam on four different surfaces - Rebound Ace at Flinders Park, Clay at Roland Garros, Grass at Wimbledon and cement Hard Court at Flushing Meadow. This fact, in itself, makes Steffi's Grand Slam unique.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won all four of the Grand Slam events at least 4 times.
· Steffi is the ONLY player (either male or female) to have won each of the four Grand Slam events in singles AND TO HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED each and every one
· Steffi is one of only two players (either male or female) to have won the French Open and Wimbledon in the same year and to have done so four times. She achieved this in 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996. Helen Wills Moody did it in 1928, 1929, 1930 and 1932. Bjorn Borg achieved it three times - 1978, 1979 and 1980
· Steffi had already won 7 Wimbledon titles by the age of 27
· It took Steffi only 9 years between her first and her eighteenth Grand Slam titles, while it took Margaret Court 11 years, and Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova 13 years each.
· Steffi holds the record for any player (either male or female) for the number of consecutive weeks as number 1 in the world - 186 weeks between 17th August 1987 and 10th March 1991.
· Steffi is the only player (either male or female) to have won all four Grand Slam singles titles in the 80s AS WELL AS in the 90s
· By winning the 1994 Australian Open, Steffi became only the second woman (Martina Navratilova was the other doing it in 1983/84) to win a non-calendar year Grand Slam, having already won the 1993 French Open, Wimbledon and US Open titles.
· Steffi holds the record for consecutive appearances in Grand Slam finals at 13 - from the 1987 French Open up to the 1990 French Open
· Steffi has won at least 3 Grand Slam titles in five different years - in 1988 she won all 4; in 1989 and 1993 she won 3 and was a finalist in the fourth; in 1995 and 1996 she won all three of the Grand Slams she played.
· Steffi has earned an Olympic Gold Medal (1988 at Seoul), a Silver Medal ( 1992 at Barcelona) and a Bronze Medal (1988 at Seoul in doubles).
· Steffi won the Lipton 5 times - a record for a man or woman. The Lipton is the biggest tournament outside the Grand Slams.
· Between 1986 and 1996, Steffi won at least 7 titles every year. Also she won at least one Grand Slam title every year between 1987 and 1996.
· Steffi has been the World Champion of Tennis seven times in ten years - 1987 to 1990, 1993 and 1995 and 1996. Seven times is a world record.
· Steffi has been the Corel WTA Player of the Year 1987 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996.
· Steffi holds a winning record against every significant player she has ever played, except Martina Navratilova (9-9) and Tracy Austin (1-1).
· Steffi holds the record as the player who has held the number 1 ranking in the world for the l o n g e s t period of time. As of the 24th March 1997, she had been in the top position for 377 weeks (over 7 years). The previous record was 331 weeks which was held by Martina Navratilova.
· Steffi won 107 titles

The first part of your post is a nicely balanced, fair even post. Then you undo all the good work by spouting off all the reasons why Graf is the best ever.

Which compels me to cut and paste from my 'Martina's unique records and accomplishments' - which is just as long and just as prestigious of yours..

But in the interests of not turning this thread into a repeat of 6 other threads currently active, I shall refrain! :)

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:15 AM
Ok thats cool everyone is entitled to their opinions but I do admire Monica & Martina & Chrissie too I just think Steffi is better

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:28 AM
well I know Martinas record is equally(almost hehe)impressive as Steffis & Seles & Evert & Court records are all legendary...no more listing of her accomplishments ok guys...... but Heres Martinas & Seles & Everts too ok:)



- Martina's 19 absolute records -




(on 02.16.92 she broke Chris Evert's record of 157 singles titles; Jimmy Connors holds the men's record with 109 titles).

174
(in women's doubles; 140 WTA Tour titles and 31 Grand Slam titles. Since Martina's comeback in 2000, this record may be improved again...)



[with Pam Shriver in 1984]
(also Maria Ester Bueno realized it in 1960, but not with the same partner. She won Paris, Wimbledon and Us Open playing with Darlene Hard, and the Australian Open with Christine Truman)


Martina won all three titles (women's singles, women's doubles and mixed doubles) at all four Grand Slam events. She completed the Super Slam in 2003, winning the mixed doubles at the Australian Open


84 times Martina was the final champion both in the singles and doubles competition during the same tournament's edition


[from January to December 1984]
(following: Steffi Graf with 66 matches [June 89 - May 90], Chris Evert with 55 and Guillermo Vilas with 46)


[paired with Pam Shriver; from April 1983 to July 1985]


for 227 times in her career Martina reached the finals in a women's singles competition


[from Eastbourne '83 to Sydney '84]
(following: Steffi Graf's 22 consecutive finals [1989- 1990])

1672
from 1973 to 2004 [1450 wins / 220 defeats]
In detail, she played 1621 singles matches in regular WTA Tour and Grand Slam events (with 1420 wins and 201 defeats), and 49 exhibitions (33 wins and 16 defeats) - Since Martina's comeback in 2000, this record may be improved again -


(as of until her comeback in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004)


(on 10.12.91, reaching the final of the Milan tournament, she broke Chris Evert's previous record of 1309 victories)
In detail, Martina won 1413 singles matches in regular WTA tour and Grand Slam events, and 37 exhibition matches


[1 defeat / 86 matches played in 1983 and 2 defeats / 78 matches played in 1984]
(Steffi Graf follows, with 2 defeats both in 1987 and in 1988)


[1978, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1990]
(Helen Wills Moody held the previous record of 8 titles, achieved between 1927 and 1938)


[from 1982 to 1987]
(following: Suzanne Lenglen, who won 5 consecutive titles from 1919 to 1923, and Borg's 5 consecutive wins from 1976 to 1980)


[when Martina defeated Monica Seles in Paris on February 21, 1993, at the age of 36 years and 4 months]
(Billie Jean King was 36 years and 3 months-old in 1980, when she beat the young number one, Martina, in the Houston's final)


in 1982 Martina bacame the first woman in sport history to have earn more than $ 1 million over one year


[during the Seventies, Eighties and Nineties she was present both in the women's singles and doubles ranking; in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 she's making a comeback, being again in the top 10 of the women's doubles ranking]


on May 25, 2002 Martina won the Open de España Madrid 2012 in women's doubles, paired with Natasha Zvereva, at the age of 45 years and 7 months, breaking the record previously hold by Billie Jean King, who won her last title at the age of 39. Actually, in 2004, she is still continually improving her record.

there was a list of Navis Records well most..she does have a lot lol:)

Heres Seles records/accomplishmentsYear 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02 03 Total
Titles 1 9 10 10 2 - 1 5 3 2 1 3 4 2 - 53

* Monica Seles did not play between April 30th, 1993 and August 14th, 1995.

No Date Location Surface Final
1 April 30th, 1989 Houston Clay C.Evert / 3-6,6-1,6-4
2 March 24th, 1990 Key Biscayne Hardcourt Wiesner / 6-1,6-2
3 April 1st, 1990 San Antonio Hardcourt MaleevaF. / 6-4,6-3
4 April 22nd, 1990 Tampa Clay K.Maleeva / 6-1,6-0
5 May 13th, 1990 Rome Clay M.Navratilova / 6-1,6-1
6 May 20th, 1990 Berlin Clay S.Graf / 6-4,6-3
7 June 10th, 1990 *Rolland Garros* Clay S.Graf / 7-6,6-4
8 August 19th, 1990 Los Angeles Hardcourt M.Navratilova / 6-4,3-6,7-6
9 November 4th, 1990 Oakland "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 6-3,7-6
10 November 18th, 1990 Virginia Slims "Carpet" G.Sabatini - 6-4,5-7,3-6,6-4,6-2
11 January 26th, 1991 *Australie* Hardcourt J.Novotna - 5-7,6-3,6-1
12 March 23rd, 1991 Key Biscane Hardcourt G.Sabatini / 6-3,7-5
13 April 21st, 1991 Houston Clay MJ Fernandez / 6-4,6-3
14 June 8th, 1991 *Rolland Garros* Clay A.Sanchez V. / 6-3,6-4
15 August 18th, 1991 Los Angeles Hardcourt K.Date /6-3,6-1
16 September 7th, 1991 *US OPEN* Hardcourt M.Navratilova / 7-6,6-1
17 September 22nd, 1991 Tokyo Hardcourt MJ Fernandez / 6-1,6-1
18 October 6th, 1991 Milan "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 6-3,3-6,6-4
19 November 17th, 1991 Philadelphie "Carpet" J.Capriati / 7-5,6-1
20 November 21st, 1991 Virginia Slims "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 6-4,3-6,7-5,6-0
21 January 25th, 1992 *Australie* Hardcourt MJ Fernandez / 6-2,6-3
22 February 9th, 1992 Essen "Carpet" MJ Fernandez / 6-0,6-3
23 March 1st, 1992 Indian Wells Hardcourt C.Martinez / 6-3,6-1
24 April 19th, 1992 Houston Clay Garrison J. / 6-1,6-1
25 April 26th, 1992 Barcelone Clay A.Sanchez V. / 3-6,6-2,6-3
26 June 6th, 1992 *Rolland Garros* Clay S.Graf / 6-2,3-6,10-8
27 September 12th, 1992 *US OPEN* Hardcourt A.Sanchez V. / 6-3,6-3
28 September 27th, 1992 Tokyo Hardcourt G.Sabatini / 6-2,6-0
29 November 8th, 1992 Oakland "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 6-3,6-4
30 November 22nd, 1992 Virginia Slims "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 7-5,6-3,6-1
31 January 30th, 1993 *Australie* Hardcourt S.Graf / 4-6,6-3,6-2
32 February 14th, 1993 Chicago "Carpet" M.Navratilova / 3-6,6-2,6-1
33 August 20th, 1995 Toronto Hardcourt A.Coetzer / 6-0,6-1
34 January 14th, 1996 Sydney Hardcourt L.Davenport / 4-6,7-6,6-3
35 January 27th, 1996 *Australie* Hardcourt A.Huber / 6-4,6-1
36 June 22nd, 1996 Eastbourne Grass MJ Fernandez / 6-0,6-2
37 August 11th, 1996 Montréal Hardcourt A.Sanchez V. / 6-1,7-6
38 September 1996 Tokyo "Carpet" A.Sanchez V. / 6-1,6-4
39 August 10th, 1997 Manhattan Beach Hardcourt Lindsay Davenport / 5-7,7-5,6-4
40 August 17th, 1997 Toronto Hardcourt Anke Huber / 6-2, 6-4
41 September 21st, 1997 Tokyo Princess Cup "carpet" Aranxta Sanchez Vicario / 6-1, 3-6, 7-6(7-5)
42 August 23rd, 1998 Montréal Hardcourt Aranxya Sanchez-Vicario / 6-3, 6-2
43 September 27th, 1998 Tokyo Princess Cup "carpet" Aranxta Sanchez Vicario / 4-6, 6-3, 6-4
44 April 11th, 1999 Bausch&Lomb Championships Clay Ruxandra Dragomir / 6-2, 6-3
45 February 27th, 2000 IGA Superthrift Hardcourt Nathalie Dechy / 6-1, 7-6
46 April 16th, 2000 Bausch&Lomb Championships Clay Conchita Martinez / 6-3, 6-2
47 May 21st, 2000 Italian Open Clay Amélie Mauresmo / 6-2, 7-6(7-4)
48 February 25th, 2001 IGA Superthrift Hardcourt Jennifer Capriati / 6-3, 5-7, 6-2
49 September 15th, 2001 Brasil Open Hardcourt Jelena Dokic / 6-3, 6-3
50 October 7th, 2001 Japan Open Hardcourt Tamarine Tanasugarn / 6-3, 6-2
51 October 14th, 2001 Kiwi Open Hardcourt Nicole Pratt / 6-2, 6-3
52 February 17th, 2002 Qatar Open Hardcourt Tamarine Tanasugarn / 7-6, 6-3
53 May 25th, 2002 Madrid Open Clay Chanda Rubin / 6-4, 6-2

CAREER HIGHLIGHTS



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES

CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - DOUBLES

ADDITIONAL HIGHLIGHTS

CAREER IN REVIEW

AWARDS/ ACCOMPLISHMENTS

PERSONAL



CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - SINGLES
WINNER (51): 2001 - Oklahoma City, Bahia, Japan Open, Shanghai; 2000 - Oklahoma City,
Amelia Island, Italian Open; 1999 - Amelia Island; 1998 - Canadian Open, Tokyo
[Princess Cup]; 1997 - Los Angeles, Canadian Open, Tokyo [Princess Cup]; 1996 -
Australian Open, Tokyo [Nichirei], Sydney, Eastbourne, Canadian Open; 1995 - Canadian
Open; 1993 - Australian Open, Chicago; 1992 - Australian Open, Roland Garros, U.S.
Open, Virginia Slims Championships, Essen, Indian Wells, Houston, Barcelona, Tokyo
[Nichirei], Oakland; 1991 - Australian Open, Roland Garros, U.S. Open, Virginia Slims
Championships, Miami, Houston, Los Angeles, Tokyo [Nichirei], Milan, Philadelphia; 1990
- Roland Garros, Virginia Slims Championships, Miami, U.S. Hardcourts, Tampa, Italian
Open, German Open, Los Angeles, Oakland; 1989 - Houston

CAREER HIGHLIGHTS - DOUBLES
WINNER (6): 1998 - Tokyo [Princess Cup] (w/Kournikova); 1997 - Tokyo [Princess Cup]
(w/Sugiyama); 1992 - Italian Open (w/Sukova); 1991 - U.S. Hardcourts (w/Fendick),
Italian Open (w/Capriati); 1990 - Italian Open (w/Kelesi)

ADDITIONAL: United States Fed Cup Team 1995-96, 1998-2000. U.S. Olympic Team 1996,
2000.

2001 IN DETAIL
* January – Began by reaching QF of Sydney before falling to title-holder Mauresmo for
only third career singles loss in Australia; in doubles teamed with Hingis for first
time and in 1r ended Williams' sisters 22-match win-streak dating back to August 1999
winning 6-4, 3-6, 7-6 saving 4 match points, next round defeated '99 Wimbledon
champions Davenport/Morariu before defaulting SF against Raymond/Stubbs; at Australian
Open recovered from 4-2 second and third set deficits to defeat Henin 46, 64, 64 in 4r;
fell to Capriati in QF in three sets after leading 75, 42; in doubles again with Hingis
defeated reigning champions Stubbs/Raymond in 1r before falling to Williams sisters in
SF
* In February, defended Oklahoma City title defeating Capriati; SF at Scottsdale losing
in three sets to Shaughnessy
* March – lost 1r Indian Wells to No. 54 Garbin; withdrew from Miami due to right foot
stress reaction
* April-May - Right foot injury caused her withdrawal from Amelia Island, Charleston,
Rome; accepted a wild card into Madrid but fell in 1r to No. 72 de los Rios for first
time in career to lose opening round in consecutive tournaments; withdrew from Roland
Garros for first time in six years
* June – withdrew from Wimbledon with continuing right foot problems
* July – returned at Stanford ending three-match losing streak reaching SF
* August – at San Diego put together best results since 1998 in beating No. 14
Shaughnessy, No. 2 Capriati and No. 1 Hingis (first win in eight meetings over Hingis)
before falling to V. Williams in final; her victories over the Top Two were the most
decisive since Austin beat Evert (63 75) and Navratilova (62 60) on successive days to
win Filderstadt 1979; at Los Angeles, d. Testud in 3r, saved 6 match points vs. S.
Williams in titanic 63, 26, 76(2) QF win – her first victory over one of the Williams
sisters in nine attempts; in SF defeated Hingis again for third three-set win in as
many days; fell in final to Davenport; accepted a wild card into Toronto defeating
Dokic, Henin (in 3s) before falling to eventual winner S. Williams 75, 76 saving 4
match points; withdrew from New Haven due to exhaustion
* September – surprisingly fell to Bedanova in three sets in 4r at U.S. Open – her
earliest exit there since 1990; Captured her second title of the year in Bahia, d. 2nd
seed Dokic in the final to remain undefeated against her; In winning her third title of
2001 at the Japan Open, earned her 50th career singles title, the eighth woman to reach
the milestone in the Open Era
* October – In Shanghai, won her third straight tournament (fourth of the year) and
ended her season with a 13-match winning streak; qualified for the season-ending
championships in Munich but will not play tournaments in Germany

CAREER IN REVIEW
2000
* Enjoyed her most consistent season since 1992, reaching the QF or better in all 16
events she played, and finishing season at No. 4 – her best since 1996
* In completed matches did not lose to anyone outside of Hingis, Davenport, V. Williams
or Pierce
* Won three titles - at Oklahoma City (her first tournament in five months after being
sidelined with a stress fracture to her right foot – ranking had slipped to No. 14 her
lowest since June 1989), Amelia Island, Italian Open (first Tier I title since 1998
Toronto) which moved her back to No. 3 in the rankings
* Finalist at season-ending championships (first final there since winning last of her
three titles in 1992) falling to Hingis 6-7, 6-4, 6-4 after leading 4-2 in second set;
also finalist at San Diego (falling to V. Williams in three sets) and New Haven (l. V.
Williams)
* Earned a Bronze Medal in singles at Olympics falling to V. Williams in three-set SF,
then defeating Dokic for Bronze Medal; played on winning U.S. Fed Cup team, avenging
1998 SF loss to Spain in Final; member of winning 1999 and 1996 U.S. Fed Cup teams
1999
* Reached Australian Open SF, including her first win over Graf in six years; SF loss
to No. 2 Hingis was first-ever loss at the tournament, and Seles is the only player
ever, male or female, to win as many as 33 matches at a Grand Slam tournament without a
loss, breaking Lenglen's 73-year-old Wimbledon record of 31; the 33-match win streak at
one Grand Slam is second to Navratilova's overall 41-match win streak at Wimbledon; at
Amelia Island won first clay court title in seven years; SF at Roland Garros extending
eventual winner Graf to three sets; Withdrew from three 1999 summer events with
tendinitis in left forearm, but returned at the Canadian Open in August where she
became the first woman to reach the final six times; lost to Hingis; suffered right
foot stress fracture in late September forcing her out of Linz, Philadelphia and the
season-ending championships
1998
* Missed first three months of season due to her father's battle with cancer returning
at Miami reaching 3r; then at Roland Garros, three weeks after the death of her father,
reached the final for the first time since winning in 1992 with upset wins over No. 3
Novotna and No. 1 Hingis before falling to Sanchez-Vicario in three sets; won Canadian
Open title (d. No. 1 Hingis and No. 4 Sanchez-Vicario); won Tokyo Princess Cup title
for third straight year; QF at Wimbledon, US Open (l. Hingis) and season-ending
championships (l. Graf in three sets); passed $10 million mark in career earnings – the
fourth to do so
1997
* Due to a broken right ring finger sustained during practice in December 1996, was
unable to defend her Australian Open crown and kept her out of game until March
resulting in ranking falling out of Top Five (at No. 6) for first time since March 25,
1990; returned at Miami where she reached the final for first time since winning in
1991; at Hilton Head stretched No. 1 Hingis to third-set tiebreaker in final; extended
Hingis to three sets again in SF of Roland Garros and her ranking moved up to No. 2
after; won back-to-back titles in Los Angeles (saving match point in F vs. Davenport)
and Toronto, elevating her back to No. 2; 14-match win streak was halted in US Open QF
where she held match points on Spirlea before falling
1996
* Began at Sydney (saving match point in F vs. Davenport) and won her 9th GS title two
weeks later at Australian Open, coming from 5-2 final-set deficit to d. Rubin in SF and
d. Huber 6-4, 6-1 in final
* Fell to Majoli in QF of Tokyo PPO and tendinitis of left shoulder kept her out until
Madrid in late May; reached QF Roland Garros – her first appearance there since 1992
and won her first title on grass at Eastbourne; suffered earliest GS loss of her career
when she fell in 2r of Wimbledon to No. 59 Studenikova; defended Canadian Open title in
August (d. Sanchez-Vicario) and reached US Open final falling to No. 1 Graf in straight
sets; won Tokyo Nicherei saving match point in SF vs. Date; forced to retire from
season-ending championships 1r match vs. Date due to left shoulder pain
1995
* Won Canadian Open as a WC, first event back on the Sanex WTA Tour after a 27-and-a-
half-month absence due to stabbing (see 1993 note below); set tournament record for
least number of games played by the champion throughout the tournament (74); d. Po,
Tauziat, Huber, Sabatini and Coetzer; 6-0, 6-1 win over Coetzer in final broke
tournament record for least number of games played in the final; reached US Open final
as No. 2 seed behind Graf, defeating No. 10 Huber, No. 5 Novotna, No. 3 Martinez all in
straight sets before falling to Graf 7-6, 0-6, 6-3; withdrew from Oakland and season-
ending champs due to tendinitis in left knee and a sprained right ankle
* When she returned to the tour after the 1993 stabbing, the Tour provided Seles with a
co-No. 1 ranking for first six tournaments or 12 months from the date of her first
tournament; then, Seles was co-ranked based upon her ranking average which was
calculated using a reduced minimum divisor until she played 14 tournaments or for 18
months from the date she participated in her first tournament; officially became ranked
co-No. 1 on Tuesday, August 15, 1995, when she played first match of her return at the
Canadian Open
1994 (did not play)
* On January 31, 1994, dropped out of the Top 10 from No. 8 to 18 as a result of not
defending her Australian Open title and fell off Tour rankings on February 14
1993
* Won Australian Open d. No. 3 Sabatini and No. 2 Graf en route to her seventh GS title
out of last eight entered; won Chicago over Navratilova, but it was Navratilova who
halted her 34-match win streak winning a third-set tiebreaker to win Paris Indoors; a
viral infection forced her out of Indian Wells, Miami, Hilton Head and Barcelona;
returned at Hamburg where, on April 30, 1993, during a change-over in QF match vs. Mag.
Maleeva at 6-4 4-3 in Seles' favor, she was stabbed in back (just below the left
shoulder blade) by 38-year-old German Guenter Parche, a fanatical fan of Graf's who
wanted to see Graf return to No. 1; Seles did not play again for 2 years and three
months
* Her eighth career GS singles title at Australian Open was in just her 14th Grand
Slam, second fastest in Open Era behind Margaret Court (who won seven titles in 10
attempts)
1992
* Won 70 matches and 10 titles; Reached final of all four Grand Slams, winning second
Australian Open, third successive Roland Garros - becoming first woman to do so since
Hilde Sperling won in 1935-37 - and second US Open; reached final of Wimbledon (d.
Navratilova in three sets before losing 6-2, 6-1 to Graf); won third straight season-
ending championships in November over Navratilova; won six other singles titles; title
at Barcelona was 25th; at 18 years, 4 months, broke Austin's mark as youngest player to
win 25 singles titles; Had streak of 21 consecutive finals (tying her for second with
Graf) from Oct. 3, 1990 (lost to Frazier in Tokyo [Nichirei] QF) until March 18, 1992
(lost to Capriati in Miami QF; Navratilova holds record by reaching 23 consecutive
finals from June 12, 1983-November 25, 1984
1991
* Won 74 matches and 10 titles; Won second GS title at Australian Open (saved a match
point vs. MJ Fernandez in SF), Roland Garros and US Open; missed Wimbledon due to shin
splints; is one of only four players in Open Era to capture Australian and French Open
titles in same calendar year (other are Court, Graf and Capriati); On March 11, ended
Graf's record 186 consecutive week reign at No. 1, becoming the fifth player to be
ranked No. 1 in the world since computer rankings began in November 1975; at the time
was youngest No. 1 at 17 years, 3 months and 9 days (Hingis became youngest on March
31, 1997 at age 16 years, six months, one day); At U.S. Open, the 17-year, one-month
age gap between finalists Seles and Navratilova was the widest in Grand Slam final
competition in Open Era; reclaimed No. 1 ranking from Graf after US Open win and would
hold position without interruption until June 1993; at San Diego played youngest final
in Open Era (combined age of 33 years) when she lost 7-6 final set to Capriati
1990
*Won 36 straight singles matches and six titles in winning Miami, San Antonio, Houston,
Rome (d. No. 2 Navratilova 6-1, 6-1), Berlin (d. No. 1 Graf 6-4, 6-3) and Roland Garros
(d. Graf again saving four set points in first-set tiebreaker) before No. 5 Garrison
stopped her in Wimbledon QF 3-6, 6-3, 9-7; improved her ranking from No. 6 to 3 during
that run; became youngest player ever to win Roland Garros at 16 years, 6 months; also
won Los Angeles (d. Navratilova 7-6 final set), Oakland, became youngest ever winner of
season-ending championships (over Sabatini in five sets – first five-set women's match
since 1902 US Championships) and finished the year at No. 2
1989
* As a 15-year-old unranked wild card won Houston d. No. 4 Evert in final, ranking
jumped to No. 23 with that victory; went on to reach Roland Garros SF (d. No. 5
Garrison and No. 7 Man. Maleeva before losing to No. 1 Graf in three sets), ranking
improved to No. 14; 4r at Wimbledon and US Open – broke into Top 10 for first time – 5th
youngest to do so; finalist at Dallas (d. No. 4 Sanchez-Vicario before falling to No. 2
Navratilova) and Brighton (l. to Graf); SF at Washington and Zurich; finished the year
qualifying for season-ending championships losing 6-3, 5-7, 7-5 to No. 2 Navratilova
and ranking climbed to No. 6
1988
* Made professional debut at Boca Raton aged 14 years, 3 months d. Kelesi before l. to
No. 3 Evert; 2r at Miami l. to No. 5 Sabatini 7-6, 6-3 and SF of New Orleans (d. No. 12
McNeil before retiring in SF vs. A. Smith; ranking debuted at No. 88 on October 10
following that tournament

AWARDS/ ACCOMPLISHMENTS
* In 2000, one of five female tennis players named to Forbes magazine's Power 100 in
Fame and Fortune list at No. 66; no other female athletes made list
* Received the 2000 Flo Hyman Memorial Award from the Women's Sports Foundation as an
outstanding female athlete who exemplifies dignity, spirit and commitment to excellence
* Named the 1999 Family Circle Cup Player Who Makes a Difference
* Recipient of the 1995 and 1998 Sanex WTA Tour Comeback Player of the Year Award;
voted by fans as the 1995 and 1997 Most Exciting Player; 1992 Sanex WTA Tour Player of
the Year by acclamation; also 1991 Sanex WTA Tour Player of the Year and 1990 Sanex WTA
Tour Most Improved Player
* Awarded the "Commitment to Community" Award by the Florida Times-Union in 1999; named
1998 Female Pro Athlete of the Year by the Florida Sports Hall of Fame; the 1995 TENNIS
Magazine Comeback Player of the Year; chosen No Nonsense American Woman of the Month in
September 1995 by the No Nonsense American Woman Council on Women's Issues; named one
of People magazine's Most Intriguing People of 1995
* 1991 and 1992 ITF Women's World Champion
* 1991 and 1992 Associated Press Female Athlete of the Year
* Recipient of first Ted Tinling Diamond Award in 1990 for enhancing the sport of
women's tennis and embodying grace and style
* Presented with 1990 Rado Topspin Award for overall sportsmanship and dedication to
game; named 1989 TENNIS Magazine/Rolex Watch Female Rookie of the Year
* Elected to the 1998/99 Sanex WTA Tour Players' Council
* Released book "From Fear to Victory" in June 1996

PERSONAL
Father, Karolj, who coached her to the No. 1 ranking, passed away in May 1998, and
Monica says that a special memory is when she first began playing tennis with her dad
on a parking lot; mother's name is Ester...Has a Yorkshire terrier named Ariel...Became
a U.S. citizen in Miami, Florida, on March 16, 1994...Was a very good ice skater when
younger...Outside interests include modeling (has appeared in Vogue, Elle, Seventeen
and on the cover of Sports Illustrated and Shape), horseback riding, basketball, guitar
(is a Jimi Hendrix fan), reading autobiographies, hiking, swimming and working with
Special Olympics athletes...Learning to speak French...Collects stuffed
animals...Partner in the All-Star Cafe, a sports restaurant chain, with athletes Andre
Agassi, Tiger Woods, Shaquille O'Neal, Joe Montana, Wayne Gretzky and Ken Griffey,
Jr...Would like to attend college one day and work with children.





More Martina too....
SINGLES
Winner (167): 1974 - Orlando; 1975 - Washington DC, Boston, Denver, Charlotte; 1976 - Houston, Sydney; 1977 - Washington DC, Houston, Minnesota, Detroit, Edinburgh, Charlotte; 1978 - Wimbledon, Virginia Slims Championships, Washington, DC, Houston, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Detroit, Kansas City, Eastbourne, Phoenix; 1979 - Wimbledon, Avon Championships, Oakland, Houston, Dallas, Chicago, Richmond, Atlanta, Phoenix, Brighton; 1980 - Colgate Series Championships, Kansas City, Chicago, Los Angeles, Oakland, Dallas, Amelia Island, Orlando, Montreal, Richmond, Tokyo; 1981 - Australian Open, Avon Championships, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, Dallas, Chicago, Orlando, US Indoors, Tampa, Tokyo [Lions Cup]; 1982 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Toyota Championships, Eastbourne, Canadian Open, Filderstadt, Washington, DC, Seattle, Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas, Sydney, Hilton Head, Orlando, Brighton; 1983 - Australian Open, Wimbledon, US Open, Virginia Slims Championships, Eastbourne, Canadian Open, Tampa, Filderstadt, Tokyo [Lions Cup], Hilton Head, Washington, DC, Houston, Chicago, Dallas, Orlando, Los Angeles; 1984 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open, Virginia Slims Championships [March], Amelia Island, Eastbourne, US Indoors, Sydney, Orlando, Newport, Mahwah, Fort Lauderdale, New Orleans; 1985 - Australian Open, Wimbledon, Virginia Slims Championships [March], Miami, Eastbourne, Sydney, Washington, DC, Houston, Dallas, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, Brisbane; 1986 - Wimbledon, US Open, Virginia Slims Championships [March], Virginia Slims Championships [Nov.], Eastbourne, Washington, DC, Filderstadt, US Indoors, Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, New England [Jan.], New England [Nov.]; 1987 - Wimbledon, US Open, Filderstadt, Chicago; 1988 - Dallas, Oakland, Washington, DC, New England, Chicago, Hilton Head, Amelia Island, Eastbourne, Filderstadt; 1989 - Los Angeles, Dallas, New England, Sydney, Tokyo [Pan Pacific], Birmingham, Eastbourne, Canadian Open; 1990 - Wimbledon, Chicago, Washington, DC, Indian Wells, Hilton Head, Eastbourne; 1991 - Chicago, Palm Springs, Birmingham, Eastbourne, Oakland; 1992 - Chicago, US Hardcourts, Los Angeles, Filderstadt; 1993 - Tokyo [Pan Pacific], Paris Indoors, Eastbourne, Los Angeles, Oakland; 1994 - Paris Indoors.

DOUBLES
Winner (174): 2004 - Vienna (w/Raymond); 2003 - Gold Coast (w/Kuznetsova), Dubai (w/Kuznetsova), Sarasota (w/L. Huber), Rome (w/Kuznetsova), Canadian Open (w/Kuznetsova), Leipzig (w/Kuznetsova), Philadelphia (w/Raymond); 2002 - Madrid (w/Zvereva); 1994 - Houston (w/Bollegraf), Zurich (w/Bollegraf); 1993 - Tokyo [Pan Pacific] (w/Sukova), Birmingham (w/McNeil), Zurich (w/Garrison); 1992 - Chicago (w/Shriver), US Hardcourts (w/Shriver); 1991 - Virginia Slims Championships (w/Shriver), Barcelona (w/Sanchez-Vicario), Filderstadt (w/Novotna); 1990 - US Open (w/G. Fernandez), Chicago (w/A. Smith), Washington, DC (w/Garrison), Hilton Head (w/Sanchez-Vicario), Hamburg (w/G. Fernandez); 1989 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), US Open (w/Mandlikova), Virginia Slims Championships (w/Shriver), Los Angeles (w/Turnbull), New England (w/Shriver), Sydney (w/Shriver), Hilton Head (w/Mandlikova); 1988 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Roland Garros (w/Shriver), Virginia Slims Championships (w/Shriver), Oakland (w/Casals), New England (w/Shriver), Washington, DC (w/Shriver), Hilton Head (w/McNeil), Filderstadt (w/Kuczynska); 1987 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Roland Garros (w/Shriver), US Open (w/Shriver), Virginia Slims Championships (w/Shriver), Miami (w/Shriver), Los Angeles (w/Shriver), Filderstadt (w/Shriver), Rome (w/Sabatini), Houston (w/K. Jordan); 1986 - Roland Garros (w/Temesvari), Wimbledon, (w/Shriver), US Open (w/Shriver), Virginia Slims Championships [Nov.] (w/Shriver), Washington, DC (w/Shriver), New England [Jan.] (w/Shriver), Marco Island (w/Temesvari), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Los Angeles (w/Shriver), Filderstadt (w/Shriver), New England [Nov.] (w/Shriver); 1985 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Roland Garros (w/Shriver), Miami (w/G. Fernandez), Virginia Slims Championships [March] (w/Shriver), Washington, DC (w/G.Fernandez), US Indoors (w/Shriver), Orlando (w/Shriver), Houston (w/Burgin), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Canadian Open (w/G. Fernandez), Brisbane (w/Shriver); 1984 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Roland Garros (w/Shriver), Wimbledon (w/Shriver), US Open (w/Shriver), Virginia Slims Championships [March] (w/Shriver), Oakland (w/Shriver), US Indoors (w/Shriver), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Mahwah (w/Shriver), Ft. Lauderdale (w/Smylie), New Orleans (w/Shriver), Brisbane (w/Shriver); 1983 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Wimbledon (w/Shriver), US Open (w/Shriver), Virginia Slims Championships (w/Shriver), Washington, DC (w/Shriver), Houston (w/Shriver), Chicago (w/Shriver), Dallas (w/Shriver), Hilton Head (w/Reynolds), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Los Angeles (w/Shriver), Tampa (w/Shriver), Stuttgart (w/Reynolds); 1982 - Australian Open (w/Shriver), Roland Garros (w/A. Smith), Wimbledon (w/Shriver), Avon Circuit Championships (w/Shriver), Toyota Circuit Championships (w/Shriver), Chicago (w/Shriver), Dallas (w/Shriver), Hilton Head (w/Shriver), Bridgestone (w/Shriver), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Canadian Open (w/Reynolds), Stuttgart (w/Shriver), Brighton (w/Shriver), Sydney (w/Shriver); 1981 - Wimbledon (w/Shriver), Avon Circuit Championships (w/Shriver), Toyota Circuit Championships (w/Shriver), Chicago (w/Shriver), Dallas (w/Shriver), Orlando (w/Shriver), Eastbourne (w/Shriver), Canadian Open (w/Shriver), US Indoors (w/Shriver), Stuttgart (w/Jausovec), Sydney (w/Shriver); 1980 - Australian Open (w/Nagelsen), US Open (w/King), Avon Championships (w/King), Washington, DC (w/King), Kansas City (w/King), Chicago (w/King), Los Angeles (w/Casals), Dallas (w/King), Bridgestone (w/King), Richmond (w/King), Mahwah (w/Reynolds); 1979 - Wimbledon (w/King), Houston (w/Newberry), Dallas (w/A. Smith), Hilton Head (w/Casals), San Diego (w/Casals), US Indoors (w/King), Stuttgart (w/King); 1978 - US Open (w/King), Washington, DC (w/King), Houston (w/King), Detroit (w/King), Kansas City (w/King), Bridgestone (w/King), Dallas (w/A. Smith), Boston (w/King), Hilton Head (w/King), Clearwater (w/A. Smith), Palm Springs (w/King); 1977 - US Open (w/Stove), Washington, DC (w/Stove), Hollywood (w/Stove), Houston (w/Stove), Bloomington (w/Casals), Detroit (w/Stove), Dallas (w/Stove), Bridgestone (w/Stove), Charlotte (w/Stove), Atlanta (w/Stove), Phoenix (w/King); 1976 - Wimbledon (w/Evert), Sarasota (w/Stove), Bridgestone (w/Stove), Charlotte (w/Stove), Atlanta (w/Stove), Phoenix (w/King), Palm Springs (w/Evert), Sydney (w/Stove); 1975 - Roland Garros (w/Evert), Chicago (w/Evert), Detroit (w/Hunt), Rome (w/Evert); 1974 - Dallas (w/I. Fernandez).

MIXED DOUBLES
Winner (9): 2003 - Australian Open (w/Paes), Wimbledon (w/Paes); 1995 - Wimbledon (w/Stark); 1993 - Wimbledon (w/Woodforde); 1987 - US Open (w/E. Sanchez); 1985 - Roland Garros (w/Gunthardt), Wimbledon (w/McNamee), US Open (w/Gunthardt); 1974 - Roland Garros (w/Molina).

ADDITIONAL United States Fed Cup Team 1982-86, 1989, 1995, 2003-04. Czech Fed Cup Team 1975. United States Wightman Cup Team 1983. United States Olympic Team 2004.




CAREER IN REVIEW
Holds 167 singles titles, more than any man/woman player; won at least one Tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 174 doubles titles, incl. seven won in 2003 and one won in 2004; has won singles and doubles titles at same event 84 times to lead all players; was ranked No. 1 for a total of 331 weeks on nine different occasions; 156 consecutively from June 14, 1982-June 9, 1985, second only to Graf’s 1987-90 record 186 weeks; in her career, Navratilova defeated Chris Evert 43 times (43-37), Billie Jean King nine times (9-5), Tracy Austin 21 times (21-13), Evonne Goolagong 15 times (15-12), Hana Mandlikova 30 times (30-7), Andrea Jeager 11 times (11-4), Steffi Graf nine times (9-9), Gabriela Sabatini 15 times (15-6), Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 12 times (12-3) and Monica Seles seven times (7-10); Her ‘Golden Run’ from December 21,1981 through January 24, 1987 (61-month period) saw her win 71 titles, 12 of 17 Grand Slam singles titles (including six straight) and 432 of 446 matches - a 0.969 win-percentage, losing only 14 matches to nine players: Hanika, Shriver. Evert (four times), Horvath, Mandlikova (three times), Sukova, Kohde-Kilsch, K. Jordan, Graf; through the next three years, would lose only to a further four players: Sabatini, Zvereva, Garrison and Neiland; her doubles record with Shriver was unprecedented: they won their 79th doubles title together at the 1992 US Hardcourts; won 21 Grand Slams together between 1981-89; holds record of 109 consecutive doubles matches won, dating from April 24, 1983 to July 6, 1985; streak broken 57 63 64 in Wimbledon final by K. Jordan/Smylie
1973 - Made Tour debut at Fort Lauderdale as a qualifier, d. Chanfreau in opening match before falling 2r to Tuero; reached four SF: St. Petersburg-FL (upsetting Masthoff), Bratislava, Canadian Open and Charlotte (d. Morozova); in debut Grand Slam, reached QF of Roland Garros, d. No. 5 seed Richey before falling to Goolagong; W-L for the year: 17-15, not incl. six qualifying wins
1974 - Played 19 tournaments (32-18 W-L), reaching SF or better at four; reached QF only once in her first nine tournaments before reaching final of Hamburg (German Open); also runner-up at Rome; reached SF at Eastbourne and QF at Roland Garros for second straight year; won first Tour title on September 22 at Orlando, unseeded, defeating Top 10 players, No. 2 seed Casals, No. 3 seed Durr and No. 4 seed Heldman in last three rounds
1975 - Reached first Grand Slam final as No. 8 seed in Australia (d. top seed Court before falling to No. 3 Goolagong); consistent VS circuit, losing before SF only twice in 10 tournaments, winning Washington, DC (d. Evert for first time in QF 36 64 76(5-4)) and Boston, with consecutive 3s victories over all-time greats Wade, Court and Goolagong (first win over her); runner-up at Rome and Roland Garros (l. to Evert), Chicago (d. Evert), VS Championships (l. to Evert); runner-up at 13 of 25 tournaments played (88-20 W-L) and finished No. 3 on computer rankings
1976 - Less impressive year after announcing her defection from Czechoslovakia at 1975 US Open, reaching just three finals, winning Houston (d. Evert) and Sydney (d. Court), and runner-up in Dallas, from 17 tournaments played (41-15 W-L)); reached nine SF (including Wimbledon) and finished No. 4 in rankings
1977 - Reached 11 finals in 20 events, winning six titles; appeared in first US Open SF, falling to Turnbull in 3s; on VS circuit, reached seven finals, winning four titles, incl. Washington, DC over Evert; ranked No. 2 between February-November; won 66 of 81 matches
1978 - Began season winning seven straight titles and 37 matches (17 of those over Top 10 players) on VS circuit (including first-ever victory over King in Houston final) before falling 76 third set to 15-year-old Austin in QF of Dallas; won VS Championships (over Goolagong) and Eastbourne (d. Evert 97 final set - just her fifth victory in 27 meetings vs. the American at the time) going into Wimbledon where she won first Grand Slam title with comeback wins over Goolagong and then Evert to ascend to world No. 1 for first time; won only Phoenix out of next six tournaments to finish 80-9; fourth player (after Evert, King and Wade) to cross $1-million mark at Palm Springs
1979 - Won 11 tournaments in 23 starts (90-12), incl. Wimbledon singles and doubles (w/King) with her mother watching; runner-up in six others; reached SF at US Open; led primary rivals Evert (5-2) and Austin (7-5) during the year; season prize money leader for first time with $691,198
1980 - Won 11 out of 24 events, incl. five of seven titles on Avon Circuit, finishing runner-up to Austin in Circuit Championships at Madison Square Garden; lost her No. 1 ranking to Austin briefly in April and again following early Eastbourne loss; Evert upset her in Wimbledon SF after d. King 10-8 final set in titanic QF; failed to win title in last six events of the year; was 2-2 vs. Evert and 4-1 vs. Austin for the year
1981 - Fell in SF of Colgate Championships but rebounded to win five of seven Avon events, incl. Championships over Jaeger; after losing 60 60 to Evert in Amelia Island, embarked on a new fitness regime that began to pay dividends in September; coming into US Open had lost five straight tournaments before d. No. 1 Evert in SF and stretching Austin 76 final set after being five points from victory; won Australian Open over Evert in 3s and finished year losing to Austin for fourth time in five meetings in 1981 at Toyota Championships final; won 78 of 89 matches (winning 8 of 19 events)
1982 - Won five straight Avon events and 28 matches to start the year before falling surprisingly to Hanika in Championships final; won next six tournaments (winning first Roland Garros to regain No. 1 ranking) and 41 matches (including leading USA to Fed Cup victory over Germany) before falling in QF of US Open to Shriver suffering from a virus bidding for her fourth straight Grand Slam title; won three straight tournaments and reached final of Australian Open (falling to Evert in 3s) before finishing season with three-set win over Evert in Toyota Championships final (90-3 W-L); first woman to pass $1 million in season earnings ($1,475,055)
1983 - Began the year winning first 36 matches and seven tournaments heading into Roland Garros before 17 year-old world No. 33 Horvath pulled off sensational 64 06 63 upset in 4r; finished season winning last 50 matches, nine tournaments, incl. fourth Wimbledon, first US Open (at 11th attempt) and second Australian Open; her 86-1 (0.989) match win-loss was a season-record in professional tennis; earned $1,456,030
1984 - Completed singles non-calendar year Grand Slam sweep at 1984 Roland Garros during a run of six consecutive Grand Slam victories from 1983 Wimbledon to 1984 US Open, tying Margaret Court’s record (1969 US Open through 1971 Australian Open); earned a $1-million bonus from the ITF for the Grand Slam; from January 16 (54 match win-streak ended by Mandlikova at Oakland final) through December 6, 1984 (lost Australian Open SF to Sukova), set the longest consecutive match win streak at 74 (broke the previous record of 55 straight matches held by Evert since 1974); holds three of five longest win-streaks in modern era; W-L for season was 78-2 and earned more prize money than all athletes in the world except three boxers; her $2,173,556 also topped Ivan Lendl’s record for single-year earnings set in 1982 for tennis and was bettered only by Lendl’s $2.3 million in 1989 during the 1980s; had scored 13 straight victories over Evert heading into 1985 season
1985 - Won 12 of 17 tournaments, incl. Wimbledon and Australian Open, but fell in two dramatic Grand Slam finals: at Roland Garros 63 67(4) 75 to Evert and at US Open 76(3) 16 76(2) to Mandlikova; only other player to beat her during season was Kohde-Kilsch in Canadian Open QF; season earnings totalled $1,328,829
1986 - Prize money leader for eighth straight year with $1,905,841 and ITF World Champion for sixth time (1979, 1982-86); won 14 of 17 tournaments, 89 of 92 matches (owns four of best six season win-loss records in Open-Era) finishing season with 53 match win-streak; only losses came to K. Jordan (Oakland SF), Graf (Berlin final) and Evert (Roland Garros final); won her record eighth VS Championships crown to conclude the year (d. Graf); passed $10 million in career earnings at US Indoors
1987 - Her dominance came to an end as she lost six straight tournaments coming into Wimbledon, but there she ended Graf’s 45-match unbeaten run for the year, capturing her own record-equalling eighth Wimbledon singles title and avenging her Roland Garros final loss to Graf; losing Los Angeles SF to Evert caused her to lose her No. 1 ranking for first time in three years, but she toppled Graf again to win US Open; there she captured rare Triple Crown, winning mixed doubles with Emilio Sanchez and women’s doubles with Shriver; last woman to win Triple Crown was King at 1973 Wimbledon; last time feat was accomplished at US Open was 1970 by Court; played 12 tournaments, winning four and going 56-8 in matches)
1988 - Won 70 of 77 matches and nine of 16 tournaments; after losing Australian Open SF to Evert, won five straight tournaments and 29 matches until falling again to Evert in final of Houston; was 49-3 for the year coming into Wimbledon final until Graf ended her 47 match win-streak at the event dating back to 1981; season earnings totalled $1,333,782
1989 - After Amelia Island SF loss to Sabatini, skipped Roland Garros for first time in eight years and asked Billie Jean King to work with her; thereafter won 51 of 53 matches (l. Wimbledon and US Open finals to Graf, the latter after leading 63 42) heading into VS Championships final where she lost again to Graf in four sets; won eight of 16 tournaments and 73 of 80 matches
1990 - Missed Australian Open for first time in nine years and began season winning first three tournaments; lost only three matches in eight tournaments coming into Wimbledon, where she won record-breaking ninth singles title (Helen Wills Moody’s record eight wins held since 1938), d. Garrison in final; her 18 Grand Slam singles titles are fourth among all women players (tied with Evert); Court leads all players with 24, Graf is in second place with 22 and Wills Moody has 19; won six of 13 tournaments and 52 of 59 matches played; had surgery to remove calcium deposits from both knees in November and ranked outside Top 2 for first time since January 1982
1991 - Won first title since Wimbledon at VS Chicago and prevented Seles rising to No. 1 in Palm Springs; Capriati upset her in Wimbledon QF (earliest exit there since 1977) and ranking dropped to No. 6 in August - lowest in 17 years; at US Open, became oldest female runner-up ever (d. No. 4 Sanchez-Vicario and No. 1 Graf en route); the 17-year, one-month gap between Navratilova and Seles in final was widest in Grand Slam history, ahead of 1973 Roland Garros final (12 years, four months); broke Evert’s all-time record of 1,309 singles-match wins after SF victory over MJ Fernandez at 1991 Milan; crossed 1,000 match-win mark at 1986 Filderstadt
1992 - February 12, 1992 was proclaimed Martina Navratilova Day in Chicago, in recognition of Navratilova’s outstanding achievements as a tennis professional; saved 2 mp in final to d. Novotna (for a record 12th title at the event) and pass Evert with 158 titles on all-time list; 2r US Open loss to Mag. Maleeva was her earliest from a Grand Slam since 1976 US Open; d. No. 1 Seles to win VS of Los Angeles and became oldest woman (36) to reach VS Championships final - her 14th in the event (l. to Seles); won four of 12 tournaments and 38 of 46 matches
1993 - Began the year reaching consecutive finals in three weeks on three continents: Asia, USA, Europe (d. No. 2 Graf en route to Tokyo [Pan Pacific], l. to Seles in Chicago and d. Seles to win Paris [Indoors] - to become oldest player ever to defeat a current No. 1 player; Navratilova, at age 36 years, four months and three days, broke the record previously held by Billie Jean King, who was 36 years, three months and nine days old on March 2, 1980 when King defeated then-No. 1 Navratilova in Houston); won Eastbourne (her 11th in singles there) and Los Angeles (d. Sabatini and Sanchez-Vicario); l. to Novotna in Wimbledon SF and played her last match at US Open in 4r loss to Sukova; briefly rose to No. 2 in the world (highest for three years) on October 11; won five of 13 tournaments and 46 of 54 matches played; earned $1,036,119 - her ninth season to pass $1 million, second only to Graf with 11
1994 - Special ‘Martina Navratilova Night’ held November 15 during VS Championships where she played her last official singles match, losing 64 62 to Sabatini (21st straight year to qualify - a record); ceremony included Harley Davidson motorbike presentation and raising of banner to rafters at Madison Square Garden; first female athlete and non-New York Knick or non-New York Ranger to receive honor; surpassed $20 million in career prize money at Filderstadt; won last singles title at Paris [Indoors] (d. Halard) - at age 37 years, four months, two years younger than King in 1983; reached her 12th Wimbledon singles final (d. Novotna QF) before falling in 3s to C. Martinez
1995 - Won Wimbledon mixed doubles title (w/Stark), her 19th title at Wimbledon (singles, doubles and mixed); played just two WTA Tour doubles events (Eastbourne w/Raymond - l. 1r and US Open w/Sabatini - l. 2r); reached QF in mixed doubles at US Open (w/Stark)
1996 - Played only Wimbledon mixed doubles (w/Stark) as No. 5 seeds, reached QF; was supposed to play women’s doubles with Graf, until the German pulled out injured; marked 24th consecutive Wimbledon (tying Wade 1962-85)
1997-1999 - Did not play 2000...Returned to WTA Tour for first time in five years, playing doubles; first match back was 1r win in Madrid (w/de Swardt) over Hiraki/Shaughnessy; d. No. 12 seeds Krizan/Srebotnik en route to 2r at Roland Garros and reached QF of Wimbledon, d. No. 13 seeds Po/Sidot before falling to eventual winners, the Williams sisters, in 3s; also reached SF at New Haven (w/Srebotnik) and QF at Tokyo [Princess Cup] (w/Seles); reached 3r at US Open (w/Sanchez-Viacario), d. Kournikova/Capriati on Arthur Ashe Stadium
2001 - Played all season with new partner Sanchez-Vicario, beginning with Amelia Island, reaching final, d. No. 2 seeds Ruano Pascual/Suárez in 3s (l. to C. Martinez/Tarabini); reached SF of Eastbourne (l. to top seeds Raymond/Stubbs in 3s) and QF at Wimbledon for second successive year (l. to Po/Tauziat in 3s); reached SF at Canadian Open (d. Raymond/Stubbs) and QF at US Open, Tokyo [Pan Pacific] and Zurich; played vs. Hingis for first time in 1r doubles at Filderstadt
2002 - Made one-off return to singles at Eastbourne (on basis of losing a bet with her trainer) and became oldest woman ever to win a Tour singles match (45 years, eight months) d. world No. 22 Panova 61 46 62 and stretched No. 3 seed Hantuchova to 3s before falling, despite not having played a Tour singles match for seven-and-a-half years; in doubles, played with 20-time Grand Slam doubles winner Zvereva, but lost first four matches of season before turning it around in Rome to reach QF and winning first doubles title since 1994 Zurich in Madrid, aged 45 years, seven months, oldest woman to do so (three years older than King at 1984 Chicago); l. 1r at Roland Garros, having led No. 1 seeds Raymond/Stubbs 3-1 third set before falling; reached SF at Los Angeles (w/L. Huber); also played once with Capriati and S. Williams during rest of season; in mixed w/Paes, d. No. 1 seeds Woodbridge/Stubbs in 1r of US Open before falling 2r
2003 - Began the year with Kuznetsova, her 11th different partner since comeback, and won Gold Coast - her first trip down under in 14 years - the 167th doubles titles of her career - matching singles tally; won mixed doubles title at Australian Open (w/Paes), oldest ever winner of a Grand Slam title (46 years), surpassing 1924 record set by Brookes and completing the only major title missing from her illustrious collection; became third woman all-time (after Court and Hart) to win singles, doubles and mixed doubles titles at all four Grand Slam titles; also won Wimbledon mixed (w/Paes), equalling King’s 1979 record of 20 Wimbledon titles; with Kuznetsova, won total of seven women’s doubles titles during the year (Dubai, Rome, Canadian Open and Leipzig w/Kuznetsova, Sarasota w/L. Huber and Philadelphia w/Raymond) - only Sugiyama won more (tied with Clijsters); played most doubles matches for the season, 76 (winning 58 - tied with Sugiyama for most); won record-tying (with King) 20th Wimbledon title, winning mixed (w/Paes); fell in women’s doubles QF (w/Kuznetsova) to Clijsters/Sugiyama in 3s; reached US Open final - first women’s Grand Slam doubles final in exactly 13 years; afterwards (September 8), doubles ranking re-entered Top 10 at No. 8 for first time since March 26, 1995; seeded No. 1 in Leipzig for first time since 1994 Oakland; finished season ranked No. 6; returned to Fed Cup play after an eight-year absence, improving W-L to 39-0 lifetime and giving the United States the only point in its 4-1 final’s loss to France


2004 IN DETAIL
January - W/Paes, as Australian Open mixed doubles defending champions, l. in final to unseeded first-time pair Bovina/Zimonjic

February - With Raymond, as No. 1 doubles seeds at Tokyo [Pan Pacific], upset in SF by eventual champions Black/Stubbs

March - With Raymond, as No. 4 doubles seeds at Miami, l. SF to No. 2 seeds Kuznetsova/Likhovtseva

April - As an unranked WC at Amelia Island, her first singles appearance in the US in more than 10 years, l. 1r 16 63 62 to No. 83 LL Sequera; as a four-time winner, returned to Charleston as an unranked WC, her 13th singles appearance there, l. 1r 64 64 to world No. 40 Frazier, and reached doubles final with Raymond as No. 2 seeds, l. to top-seeds and defending champions Ruano Pascual/Suárez; member of US Fed Cup team that d. Slovenia 4-1 in 1r (won doubles rubber w/Raymond)

May - At Vienna, as No. 1 seeds in doubles w/Raymond, won first 2004 doubles title (second as a team) by d. No. 2 seeds and three-time 2004 finalists Black/Stubbs; entered Roland Garros singles draw as an unranked WC for first Grand Slam singles match since 1994, l. 61 63 to Dulko in 1r (Navratilova served a 103-mph ace to make it 1-1 in second set), and reached doubles SF w/Raymond as No. 5 seeds, l. to No. 2 seeds Kuznetsova/Likhovtseva

June - Returned to Wimbledon as a nine-time champion and world No. 700 WC, 10 years after 1994 loss in final to C. Martinez, and 31 years after her debut, d. Castano 60 61 (oldest woman in 82 years to win a Wimbledon singles match) before l. 2r to No. 59 Dulko 36 63 63, and seeded No. 3 in doubles w/Raymond, l. SF to No. 5 seeds Huber/Sugiyama

July - Member of US Fed Cup QF team that was upset by Austria 4-1 (second upset by Austria in three years and w/Craybas included a doubles loss to Schett/Wartusch, for Navratilova's first Fed Cup loss after 40 singles/doubles victories dating back to 1975); reached San Diego SF w/Raymond, l. to No. 2 seeds and eventual champions Black/Stubbs

August - At Athens Olympics, the first Olympics competition of her career, competed in doubles w/Raymond, as No. 3 seeds, l. QF to No. 5 seeds Asagoe/Sugiyama of Japan; w/Raymond in New Haven doubles (as No. 3 seeds), eliminated top-seeds Black/Stubbs in SF, but l. to No. 2 seeds Petrova/Shaughnessy in final; w/Paes, as No. 8 seeds in US Open mixed doubles, was upset in SF third-set tie-break by unseeded Molik/Woodbridge


PERSONAL
Physical trainer is Giselle Tirado...Supports numerous non-profit groups and charitable causes; contributes to scholarship funds for needy children and with friendly rival Chris Evert competed in many exhibition matches to fund charities; contributed $150,000 in 1986 to the Women’s Sports Foundation to support development of sports for women; taped ads for the Statue of Liberty Commemorative Coins in the summer of 1986 in conjunction with that restoration project in her adopted homeland; also supports Ms. Foundation, Planned Parenthood and PETA...Became a US Citizen on July 21, 1981...Released autobiography Martina in June 1985...Enjoys snow skiing, snowboarding, golf, basketball and horseback riding...Proficient reader of classics; also enjoys classical music and Katharine Hepburn films...Co-wrote three mystery novels: The Total Zone was published in 1995, Breaking Point was published in 1996, Killer Instinct came out in 1998...Participated in the creation of The Rainbow Card, a VISA credit card program targeted to the lesbian and gay community; volunteers her services as spokesperson for the Rainbow Card Foundation, a non-profit organization dedicated to raising and distributing funds to national gay and lesbian health care, education, cultural and civil rights groups.


AWARDS
• Nominated for Laureus World Comeback of the Year Award (to be presented May 2004 for outstanding achievements in sport from previous 12 months)
• Holds 167 singles titles, more than any man or woman; won at least one tour event a year for 21 consecutive years; holds 173 doubles titles
• Won 2003 Australian Open mixed doubles title w/Paes to become the third woman (after Court and Hart) to win singles, doubles and mixed doubles titles at all four Grand Slam tournaments; was honored by the WTA Tour at 2003 Amelia Island with an on-court presentation in recognition of completing a Super Slam, the first man or woman in Open Era to do so
• With 2003 Australian Open mixed doubles title, became the oldest person to win a Grand Slam title at 46 years, 3 months, surpassing record set in 1924
• Ties with King for all-time record 20 Wimbledon titles
• In 2003, at 46 years of age, became oldest Wimbledon champion, supplanting Margaret Dupont, who won mixed doubles in 1962 at 44
• Won singles and doubles titles at same event 84 times to lead all players
• 18 Grand Slam singles titles are fourth among all women players (tied with Chris Evert); Margaret Court leads all players with 24 followed by Steffi Graf (22) and Helen Wills Moody (19)
• Achieved three non-calendar year Grand Slams of doubles with Pam Shriver in 1983-84, 1984-85, 1986-87
• With Pam Shriver, holds record of 109 consecutive doubles matches won, dating from April 24, 1983 to July 6, 1985; streak broken in Wimbledon final by Kathy Jordan/Liz Smylie
• Was ranked No. 1 for a total of 331 weeks, second to Steffi Graf
• Presented with BBC Lifetime Achievement Award in 2003 by mixed doubles partner Leander Paes (her first BBC award was 1987 Overseas Personality Award)
• During the 2002 Madrid tournament, received Marca newspaper’s prestigious ‘Leyenda’ (Legend) award
• Inducted into International Tennis Hall of Fame in 2000 • United States Fed Cup captain in 1997
• Received the 1996 David Gray Service Award from the WTA Tour for her contributions to tennis
• Voted WTT Female Most Valuable Player three years in a row (1991-93)
• Named Female Athlete of the Decade (80s) by The National Sports Review, UPI and AP; named WTA Player of the Year a record-tying seven times (1978-79, 1982-86, tied with Steffi Graf); named Women’s Sports Foundation Sportswoman of the Year three times consecutively from 1982-84; named 1983 Associated Press Female Athlete of the Year; received Women’s Sports Foundation Flo Hyman Award in 1987; with Pam Shriver, beginning in 1981, named WTA Tour Doubles Team of the Year a record eight consecutive years; also won with Betty Stove in 1977 and with Billie Jean King in 1978 and 1979
• No. 14 on Sports Illustrated’s Top 40 Athletes list, named in its 40th Year Anniversary issue (September 1994) for significantly altering or elevating sports the last four decades; second-highest ranked woman and one of only four to make list (Billie Jean King was highest-ranked woman)
• Special Martina Navratilova Night held November 15, 1994 during Virginia Slims Championships included raising of a banner to the rafters at Madison Square Garden; first non-New York Knick or non-New York Ranger to receive a banner
• Elected as president of WTA Tour Players Association 1979/80, 1983/84 and 1994/95; vice-president 1993/94
• Has a life-size wax figure on display at the famed Grevin Wax Museum in Paris


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and to be fair on Evert too:)




© Getty Images SINGLES
Winner (154 WTA Tour): 1971 - St. Petersburg, Charlotte, Tulsa, South Orange; 1972 - Virginia Slims Championships, Fort Lauderdale, Queen's Club, US Clay Courts; 1973 - Virginia Slims Championships, Akron, Johannesburg, New York Indoors, Sarasota, Atlanta, Miami, St. Petersburg, Cleveland, Columbus, Fort Lauderdale, US Clay Courts; 1974 - Roland Garros, Wimbledon, Rome, Hilton Head, US Clay Courts, Mission Viejo, Fort Lauderdale, Sarasota, St. Petersburg, Dallas, Houston, Newport, Eastbourne, Canadian Open, Tokyo Gunze, Hilton Head Invitational; 1975 - Roland Garros, US Open, Rome, Hilton Head Invitational, San Francisco, US Clay Courts, Atlanta, Houston, Amelia Island (FC Cup), Virginia Slims Championships, Orlando, Akron, L'Eggs Classic-Austin TX, Rye [New York], Palm Springs, Tokyo Gunze ; 1976 - Wimbledon, US Open, San Francisco, Eastbourne, Washington DC, Detroit, Phoenix, L'Eggs Classic-Austin TX, Sarasota, Colgate Series Championships, Tokyo Gunze, Amelia Island; 1977 - US Open, Virginia Slims Championships, Colgate Series Championships, Hilton Head, Atlanta, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Hollywood [Florida], Philadelphia, Tucson; 1978 - US Open, Colgate Series Championships, Hilton Head, Atlanta, Minnesota, Philadelphia, Tokyo Emeron Cup; 1979 - Roland Garros, US Clay Courts, Eastbourne, Los Angeles, Seattle, Clairol Crown-La Costa, Vienna, Mahwah; 1980 - Roland Garros, US Open, Rome, US Clay Courts, Canadian Open, Brighton, Deerfield Beach, Chichester; 1981 - Wimbledon, Rome, Hilton Head, Amelia Island, Swiss Open, Boston, Deerfield Beach, Clairol Crown-La Costa, Sydney; 1982 - Australian Open, US Open, Rome, Atlanta, Amelia Island, Swiss Open, Deerfield Beach, Tokyo Lions Cup, Palm Beach Gardens, Tampa; 1983 - Roland Garros, Berlin, Amelia Island, Brighton, Palm Beach Gardens, Deerfield Beach; 1984 - Australian Open, Hilton Head, Canadian Open, Los Angeles, Key Biscayne, Johannesburg; 1985 - Roland Garros, Berlin, Hilton Head, Tokyo Lions Cup, Canadian Open, Newport, Brighton, Palm Beach Gardens, Key Biscayne, New Orleans; 1986 - Roland Garros, Miami, Key Biscayne, Oakland, Houston, Orlando; 1987 - European Open, Tampa, Houston, Dallas, New Orleans; 1988 - Los Angeles, Houston, New Orleans, Tampa.

DOUBLES
Winner (8): 1987 - Tampa (w/Turnbull); 1979 - Oakland (w/Casals), Los Angeles (w/Casals); 1976 - Wimbledon (w/Navratilova); 1975 - Roland Garros (w/Navratilova), Rome (w/Navratilova); 1974 - Roland Garros (w/Morozova), Rome (w/Morozova).

ADDITIONAL
United States Fed Cup Team 1977-82, 86-87, 89. United States Wightman Cup Team 1971-73, 75-82, 84-85. United States Olympic Team 1988.




CAREER IN REVIEW
• Owns the highest winning percentage in pro tennis history (.900)
• Has the best record on clay of any player for any single surface with a 125-match win streak set from August 1973-May 1979, until Tracy Austin defeated her 64 26 76 in 1979 Rome SF
• Holds Open Era record for most consecutive Grand Slam SFs or better with 34 from 1971 US Open through 1983 Roland Garros
• Competed in 19th and final US Open in 1989; lost to Zina Garrison 76(1) 62 in QF; reached SFs or better in 17 of 19 appearances; first US Open was in 1971 at 16 years of age; won 101 matches at the US Open, more than any other player, male or female
• From 1972-1989, was never ranked lower than the Top 4
• Won at least one Grand Slam title per year for 13 years, 1974-86
• Is tied with Martina Navratilova for fourth on all-time list with 18 Grand Slam singles titles (7 Roland Garros, 6 US Open, 3 Wimbledon, 2 Australian Open); Margaret Court leads all players with 24, Steffi Graf is second with 22 and Helen Wills Moody is third with 19
• Reclaimed the No. 1 ranking on June 10, 1985, after upsetting Navratilova 63 67(4) 75 in Roland Garros final; prior to that, her last time at No. 1 was June 1981
• Won 1,000th career singles match during 1984 Australian Open, becoming first player, male or female, to reach that landmark; ended career second in match wins with 1,309
• Reached SF or better of 52 of last 56 Grand Slams
• Mark of 55 consecutive match wins, set in 1974, stood until Martina Navratilova set record of 74 straight in 1984; through 2001, the 55-match winning streak ranks fifth in the Open Era • Through 2002, her 154 singles titles ranks second in the Open Era


PERSONAL
Married two-time Olympic downhill skier Andy Mill on July 30, 1988...Gave birth to sons Alexander James (October 12, 1991), Nicholas Joseph (June 8, 1994), and Colton Jack (June 14, 1996) in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida...Whole family is involved in tennis; mother, Colette, is a club player; father, Jimmy, retired in 1997 from teaching at Holiday Park in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, where he instructed his children: Jeanne, born in 1957, was a touring pro; Clare, born in 1968, played collegiate tennis for Southern Methodist University; eldest brother Drew, born in 1953, played varsity tennis at Auburn University and was a teaching pro; younger brother John, born in 1961, played varsity tennis at Auburn and works in the tennis industry...Two books include the autobiography Chrissie (written with Neil Amdur), published in 1982, and Lloyd on Lloyd (co-authored with John Lloyd in collaboration with Carol Thatcher), released in June 1986...Likes to visit Paris and The Great Barrier Reef in Hamilton Island...On November 11, 1989, was first female sports celebrity to guest host the American comedy television show Saturday Night Live...Featured on front of Wheaties cereal box in 1987...Hosted Chris Evert Special on prime-time television...Emerged as the most widely known athlete in the nation in a poll conducted by American Sports Data, Inc. in 1991.


AWARDS
• To celebrate the WTA Tour’s 30th Anniversary, attended an on-court ceremony at the 2003 season-ending Championships that honored 13 world No. 1 champions (past and present), and founding members of the tour
• In 2003, became one of first inductees into US Open Court of Champions
• Founded Chris Evert Charities in 1989, and her efforts have raised more than $10 million to fight drug abuse and to assist neglected, drug-exposed and abused children; hosts an annual fund-raiser in Delray Beach, Florida, with celebrities and tennis stars for a weekend of pro-celebrity matches and a black-tie gala
• In March 1996 opened and actively oversees the Evert Tennis Academy in Boca Raton, Florida; the center specializes in junior development and offers programs for all skill levels from beginning to professional
• Inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame on July 16, 1995, becoming the fourth player (following Rod Laver, John Newcombe and Virginia Wade) to be elected unanimously by a worldwide media ballot of 185; sole 1995 inductee
• WTA Players Association president for record nine times, including eight terms consecutively from 1983-91; first term was 1975-76
• Named Greatest Woman Athlete of the Last 25 Years by Women's Sports Foundation in April 1985; Women's Sports Foundation Sportswoman of the Year in 1981; elected to serve on its Board of Stewards in 1993
• Presented Flo Hyman Award by then-President George Bush February 9, 1990 at the White House in Washington, DC
• Presented 1992 David Gray Special Service Award by the WTA Tour and also received WTA Tour Honorary Membership Award in 1992; recipient of WTA Tour Player Service Award in 1981, 1986 and 1987; selected by peers to receive WTA Tour Karen Krantzcke Sportsmanship Award in 1979
• Received Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year Award in 1976; first woman athlete to be featured in a Sports Illustrated commercial (first aired in 1986)
• Inducted into National High School Sports Hall of Fame in June 1992
• Awarded 1995 Family Circle Player Who Makes A Difference Award
• Was a participant in the Virginia Slims Legends Tour

wow thats a lot I know Steffi is awesome but these other champions are cool too:) Good night everyone..happy holidays:) :) :) :) :) :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :wavey: :wavey: :angel: :angel: :D

azinna
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:01 AM
FrauleinSteffi, this kind of posting just isn't right. I know you're trying to do good, and I love you for your support of my all-time fave, but incessant cut-and-pasting of career results isn't the way to go. It hurts the eyes and deadens the conversation. Next time just give us a link to the site where you got all that, and those who need it will click.

Thanks, though, for keeping the Steffi Flag waving. :)

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:26 AM
ok next time no pasting thanks:)

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 08:50 AM
Grafanatics vs Selesians/Navratilovians war is raging in the forum......
What do you think about that? most of you are neutral?

here the troops currently in action:

Graf: Calimero, frauleinsteffi
sel/Nav: Greatest, czechfan, tennilover, bandabou

http://digilander.libero.it/ander75/moni/lenglen.jpg

A player who is FALSELY claimed by the twisted Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on luck that the TRUE #1 ranked player in the world in the middle of her career (who is just a teenager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being brutally stabbed in the back with a knife by one of her jealous fans.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Graf was not nor will ever be (even the mere consideration as the best of all time.)

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

STILL .. Navratilova in her mid to upper 30s had a winning record vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993, including Martina winning the only match between the 2 at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s.


Seles, of course, as a top ranked phenom in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

From 1990-1993( before the stabbing), By the time, Monica Seles took over the top ranking from Graf...she had 4-3 advantage against Graf in head to head match-ups and was 3-1 in Grand Slam Finals against Graf who had fallen to a consistent number two.***
************************************************** *******
1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7 (4-7), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles
************************************************** *******
***Monica Seles also won her very last match against second ranked Graf at the Finals of the 1993 Australian Open***

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that undisputed world number one Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

No way Steffi Graf is the best woman tennis player in tennis history when you consider the truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. Far from it...Not even close.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

__________________________________________________ ____________

I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------#2 Steffi Graf.......
after her demoralizing loss to World Number One Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:13 AM
It´s just the everlasting saga: some selestials who come up with accounts just to keep calling Graf/ Parche a great combination.....and the you get Cali who can´t control himself...

And good ol' bandy is not a Graf fanatic?.. Bandilero377 ...And you think I dont know when you switch from Banda to alimero377 :lol:

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:14 AM
The Graf fanatics falsely claim that Graf is better than Navratilova???? :lol:

Except for when it came to:

• most consecutive years at #1 ...
• most Wimbledon singles titles ...
• most consecutive years winning Wimbledon ...
• most overall total Grand Slam titles won ....
• most singles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most doubles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most impressive record for longevity and playing past the age of 30.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova in the Slams.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova at the Tour Championships.

Oh, and by the way ... Navratilova is the only woman in women's tennis history to have the all-time record for most number of wins at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Oh, may I add a few more impressive numbers to this list, please? Martina also holds the records for -

-- most singles matches won (Navratilova-1442, Evert-1304, Graf-900)
-- most consecutive singles matched won (74)
-- most consecutive doubles matches won (109, record shared with Pam Shriver)
-- most dominant year (86-1 W/L record in 1983)
-- 2nd oldest player to hold the #1 ranking (Evert was oldest)
-- most career wins over the #1 player
-- most years finished ranked in the top 10 (Navratilova - 20; Evert - 19, Seles & Graf - 13)
-- most weeks ranked #1 in singles and doubles at the same time (Navratilova-103, Graf -0)
-- most career prize money (by far) when you factor in prize money relativity
-- most years finished ranked #1 in prize money
-- most consecutive years earning $100K or more
-- most consecutive years earning $500K or more
-- most years earning $500K or more
-- most consecutive years on top 10 prize money list (Navratilova-20, Evert-16 ... Graf is 6th on this list at 11)
-- most consecutive WTA Tour singles titles (Navratilova-13, Court-12)
-- most consecutive years winning at lest 1 singles title (Navratilova -21, Evert-18,)
-- most singles titles won at the same tournament (Navratilova-Chicago/12, Navratilova-Eastbourne/11, )
-- most consecutive titles won a tthe same tournament (Navratilova-Wimbledon/6, Navratilova-Chicago/6, )
--- most dominant individual performance at a 128-draw grand slam event - US Open: Navratilova conceded just 19 games at the 1983 US Open
- most dominant individual performance at Wimbledon: Navratilova conceded just 25 games at the 1983 Wimbledon (Evert conceded just 26 games at the 1981 Wimbledon)
-- most singles matches won in the same season: Navratilova-74 (1984), Evert-55 (1974), Navratilova 53 (1986), Navratilova 50 (1983), Graf 66 snapped by Monica Seles in Berlin 1990)
-- most consecutive singles finals reached (23)
-- most WTA Tour awards for doubles team of the year (10 - 2 with King, 8 with Shriver)
-- most WTA Tour awards - 18
-- most WTA Tour Special Service to the Game Award - Billie Jean King is the only person to have won this twice since it was first awarded in 1980; Navratilova, Evert and Shriver have all received this award. Graf was never nominated.

Would you like more records for Navratilova or is this enough? :lol:

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:37 PM
The whole Nav/Seles vs Graf crowd wars had pretty much died down on these boards until the last few months when Calimero started posting.

He posts amazingly bullshit facts, the most one sided, insecure, fanatical account of the early 90's to the point where his thoughts and opinions are just laughable.

Most Graf/Nav/Seles supporters realised that the debates are endless and noone convinces anyone on the other side to change their opinions so theres no real point to it.

But because Calimero leads such a pathetic existence, he admittedly comes to the boards just to fight with Nav/Seles fans. So theres your explanation as to why these threads have popped up all over the place again.


Very Well said Czech....

GrantyBoy
Dec 6th, 2004, 03:10 PM
I find this whole coversation very futile and I think we're all going round in circles (again and again!) My favourite player is Steffi but I really like all the others too including Seles. No one know what would have happened if Monica hadn't been stabbed but unfortunately we can't change the past. I think Monica showed great courage to come back and should be respected for it, equally it was not Steffi's fault it happened. Good luck to both of them for the future x

steffilover
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Holder of the "Golden Slam" in 1988 (a new and unique title, named just for her, to accommodate the fact that no-one had ever achieved as much in one single season before) - STEFFI GRAF:worship:


Can you match that, supporters of Monica and Martina?:confused:

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 04:47 PM
that's really very funny:
I started this thread in order to debate about the "war"......and the war itself is raging in the thread........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:14 PM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.

I don't know, guys.....
I always disagree with Cali, but I'd avoid to so strictly judge him as a person ......after all his crime is simply to be crazy for his tennis idol........he is anyway a pretty correct fighter (apart from some "offensive" word.....but who didn't make mistakes in that way?).............
so let's go on fighting :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:

selking
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Grafanatics vs Selesian... Dec 6th, 2004 10:38 AM steffilover you are rude, stupid, possibly ugly and probably unpopular, but DEFINITELY very wrong in your choice of tennis heroine...and you are now bad-repped too, so ha!

hahahahahahaha

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Grafanatics vs Selesian... Dec 6th, 2004 10:38 AM steffilover you are rude, stupid, possibly ugly and probably unpopular, but DEFINITELY very wrong in your choice of tennis heroine...and you are now bad-repped too, so ha!

hahahahahahaha

what's that selking? :confused:
Who wrote that?

selking
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:30 PM
steffilover

raquel
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:32 PM
that's really very funny:
I started this thread in order to debate about the "war"......and the war itself is raging in the thread........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously, what else did you expect?

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:35 PM
steffilover

OMG!!!!!

grafanatics are sometimes very offensive.....

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Seriously, what else did you expect?


so trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee :lol: :lol: :lol:

KV
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Holder of the "Golden Slam" in 1988 (a new and unique title, named just for her, to accommodate the fact that no-one had ever achieved as much in one single season before) - STEFFI GRAF:worship:


Can you match that, supporters of Monica and Martina?:confused:Read post 19 that's even more impressive and think as well about doubles titles

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Read post 19 that's even more impressive and think as well about doubles titles

the truth is the truth.....

(guys the war goes on!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ;) )

KV
Dec 6th, 2004, 05:41 PM
As well thank you Calimero you let me remind of some slamless players like Leconte/Mecir. All I know they had variety, had more than footwork/serve/forehand. Were great returners of the game, had very good volleys too.

CondiLicious
Dec 6th, 2004, 06:49 PM
I usually avoid Seles v Graf threads like the plague :lol: I like Steffi, I love Monica and the endless fighting over the same things (from both groups of fans) got tired like... YEARS ago! :)

GrantyBoy
Dec 6th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Thanks Diva - its a big yawn all this fighting. Folks its the season of good will to all men and women - chill!

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Holder of the "Golden Slam" in 1988 (a new and unique title, named just for her, to accommodate the fact that no-one had ever achieved as much in one single season before) - STEFFI GRAF:worship:


Can you match that, supporters of Monica and Martina?:confused:

Yes, Have you forgotten about GOLDEN PARCHE! :lol:

No one had ever won hollow slams and default at number one because the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME was stabbed by a jealous fan. No one. :lol:

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 08:13 PM
Yes, Have you forgotten about GOLDEN PARCHE! :lol:

No one had ever won hollow slams and default at number one because the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME was stabbed by a jealous fan. No one. :lol:

:haha: :haha: :haha:
In that sense, Graf is really unique! :lol: :lol: :lol:

tennislover
Dec 6th, 2004, 08:17 PM
A new title has been created just for Graf :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: !!!!!
THE GOLDEN PARCHE!!!!!!!!!

Geisha
Dec 6th, 2004, 09:20 PM
I don't understand why people say GRAF is better than SELES because she has won more Wimbledons? Wimbledons are definitely not what determines if a player is better or not.

I love SELES! She's amazing and truly a hero for the sport.

But, I think that because she got stabbed, we will never know what she could have or could have not done. I mean, she could have won three Grand Slams, or she could have won 50 Grand Slams. We just don't know.

I think it is unfair to say that Graf/Navratilova is better than her, but it is also unfair to say that Seles is better than Graf/Navratilova.

It all lies in fate and who likes who more.

steffilover
Dec 7th, 2004, 12:21 AM
Yes, Have you forgotten about GOLDEN PARCHE! :lol:

No one had ever won hollow slams and default at number one because the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME was stabbed by a jealous fan. No one. :lol:
ahem, just in case you hadn't noticed (although I did do my best to underline it for the hard of thinking), this all occurred PRE stabbing!...which must really get on your nerves SOOOOOOOOO much!!!:)

faboozadoo15
Dec 7th, 2004, 12:29 AM
ahem, just in case you hadn't noticed (although I did do my best to underline it for the hard of thinking), this all occurred PRE stabbing!...which must really get on your nerves SOOOOOOOOO much!!!:)
why would this get on anybody's nerves? right after this, monica came along and what did steffi have to show for herself when monica started winning everything? second place, that's what.

steffilover
Dec 7th, 2004, 01:14 AM
why would this get on anybody's nerves? right after this, monica came along and what did steffi have to show for herself when monica started winning everything? second place, that's what.EVERYTHING? ...except the biggest prize in tennis...7 times....must get on your nerves a bit....:rolleyes:

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 02:45 AM
EVERYTHING? ...except the biggest prize in tennis...7 times....must get on your nerves a bit....:rolleyes:
Biggest Prize in Tennis?

Must get on your nerves that Martina won it 9 times!! hahaha

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Biggest Prize in Tennis?

Must get on your nerves that Martina won it 9 times!! hahaha

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Jang2
Dec 7th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Believe 99% Graf record is not valid and 100% guaranteed if Seles is there :p

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 02:33 PM
Welcome Jang! ;)
Are you a Navratilovian, aren't you?

:hug:
We need good soldiers for our "war" vs Grafanatics..... :lol:

steffilover
Dec 7th, 2004, 04:27 PM
Biggest Prize in Tennis?

Must get on your nerves that Martina won it 9 times!! hahaha
not really...you see, as great as she was, steffi walloped her twice in the final AND has 15 Grand Slams from the other big 3, whereas martina can only count 9...hmmm:confused:

Andy T
Dec 7th, 2004, 05:11 PM
I like "Navratilover" more than "Navratilovian."

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 06:49 PM
The Graf fanatics falsely claim that Graf is better than Navratilova???? :lol:

Except for when it came to:

• most consecutive years at #1 ...
• most Wimbledon singles titles ...
• most consecutive years winning Wimbledon ...
• most overall total Grand Slam titles won ....
• most singles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most doubles titles won on the WTA Tour ...
• most impressive record for longevity and playing past the age of 30.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova in the Slams.
• most wins head to head between Graf and Navratilova at the Tour Championships.

Oh, and by the way ... Navratilova is the only woman in women's tennis history to have the all-time record for most number of wins at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Oh, may I add a few more impressive numbers to this list, please? Martina also holds the records for -

-- most singles matches won (Navratilova-1442, Evert-1304, Graf-900)
-- most consecutive singles matched won (74)
-- most consecutive doubles matches won (109, record shared with Pam Shriver)
-- most dominant year (86-1 W/L record in 1983)
-- 2nd oldest player to hold the #1 ranking (Evert was oldest)
-- most career wins over the #1 player
-- most years finished ranked in the top 10 (Navratilova - 20; Evert - 19, Seles & Graf - 13)
-- most weeks ranked #1 in singles and doubles at the same time (Navratilova-103, Graf -0)
-- most career prize money (by far) when you factor in prize money relativity
-- most years finished ranked #1 in prize money
-- most consecutive years earning $100K or more
-- most consecutive years earning $500K or more
-- most years earning $500K or more
-- most consecutive years on top 10 prize money list (Navratilova-20, Evert-16 ... Graf is 6th on this list at 11)
-- most consecutive WTA Tour singles titles (Navratilova-13, Court-12)
-- most consecutive years winning at lest 1 singles title (Navratilova -21, Evert-18,)
-- most singles titles won at the same tournament (Navratilova-Chicago/12, Navratilova-Eastbourne/11, )
-- most consecutive titles won a tthe same tournament (Navratilova-Wimbledon/6, Navratilova-Chicago/6, )
--- most dominant individual performance at a 128-draw grand slam event - US Open: Navratilova conceded just 19 games at the 1983 US Open
- most dominant individual performance at Wimbledon: Navratilova conceded just 25 games at the 1983 Wimbledon (Evert conceded just 26 games at the 1981 Wimbledon)
-- most singles matches won in the same season: Navratilova-74 (1984), Evert-55 (1974), Navratilova 53 (1986), Navratilova 50 (1983), Graf 66 snapped by Monica Seles in Berlin 1990)
-- most consecutive singles finals reached (23)
-- most WTA Tour awards for doubles team of the year (10 - 2 with King, 8 with Shriver)
-- most WTA Tour awards - 18
-- most WTA Tour Special Service to the Game Award - Billie Jean King is the only person to have won this twice since it was first awarded in 1980; Navratilova, Evert and Shriver have all received this award. Graf was never nominated.

Would you like more records for Navratilova or is this enough? :lol:








Graf holds the record for
- most wins in greatest-ever polls.




:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 06:55 PM
The whole Nav/Seles vs Graf crowd wars had pretty much died down on these boards until the last few months when Calimero started posting.

He posts amazingly bullshit facts, the most one sided, insecure, fanatical account of the early 90's to the point where his thoughts and opinions are just laughable.

Most Graf/Nav/Seles supporters realised that the debates are endless and noone convinces anyone on the other side to change their opinions so theres no real point to it.

But because Calimero leads such a pathetic existence, he admittedly comes to the boards just to fight with Nav/Seles fans. So theres your explanation as to why these threads have popped up all over the place again.


At least this Calimero type refrains from private messages which contain vulgar terms for certain female private parts, Dumbo ....

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.


This coming from you is the highest possible praise ...

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 06:59 PM
I don't know, guys.....
I always disagree with Cali, but I'd avoid to so strictly judge him as a person ......after all his crime is simply to be crazy for his tennis idol........he is anyway a pretty correct fighter (apart from some "offensive" word.....but who didn't make mistakes in that way?).............
so let's go on fighting :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:


Lower-class dumbo ...

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:01 PM
Read post 19 that's even more impressive and think as well about doubles titles


Steffi was better in water-polo than Navi.
your point being?

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:05 PM
As well thank you Calimero you let me remind of some slamless players like Leconte/Mecir. All I know they had variety, had more than footwork/serve/forehand. Were great returners of the game, had very good volleys too.


Those who are mediocre in everything have to vary. Usually they don't win slams.

Those who are the greatest-ever in speed/footwork/forehand/slice BH simply rely on speed/footwork/forehand/slice BH. And win 22 slams with that.

You getting the point?

Kart
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:05 PM
I like "Navratilover" more than "Navratilovian."
I think that sounds better as well.

While we're on the topic, for the thread starter: the current nomenclature is Selestial.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:12 PM
Welcome Jang! ;)
Are you a Navratilovian, aren't you?

:hug:
We need good soldiers for our "war" vs Grafanatics..... :lol:


Your war has been lost 5 years ago. On June 5th, 1999.
We only are doing some mopping-up operations here ....

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:14 PM
I think that sounds better as well.

While we're on the topic, for the thread starter: the current nomenclature is Selestial.

Selesians.
Sound somehow revanchist ....

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:18 PM
I'm curious calimero, strictly from a tennis perspective, on that hypothetical tennis court in the sky, with both players at the peak of their form, healthy, and playing well, with the same standard size racquets, who do you think would win the match- Steffi Graf or Martina Navratilova?

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:40 PM
I'm curious calimero, strictly from a tennis perspective, on that hypothetical tennis court in the sky, with both players at the peak of their form, healthy, and playing well, with the same standard size racquets, who do you think would win the match- Steffi Graf or Martina Navratilova?


Graf.

Because I don't buy that Navi of 83/86 was worse than Navi of 88/89.

Take 1989: Without a transcendent Graf Navi would have won Wimbledon, USO (Navi was unbelievable that day!) and YEC that year. She would have had a 76-4 win/loss record and been CLEAR #1 in the rankings.

But peak Graf was unbeatable.

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:49 PM
yes yes yes I think that Navratilovers is perfect......
ok also for Selestials (but also selesian is ok: selesians sounds like people who came ffrom an alien planet through the space......)

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:50 PM
Graf.

Because I don't buy that Navi of 83/86 was worse than Navi of 88/89.

Take 1989: Without a transcendent Graf Navi would have won Wimbledon, USO (Navi was unbelievable that day!) and YEC that year. She would have had a 76-4 win/loss record and been CLEAR #1 in the rankings.

But peak Graf was unbeatable.


ahahahahahahahaha
that's the best joke of the year 2004

add this: neither sampras could beat graf at the peak.....

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:57 PM
Graf holds the record for
- most wins in greatest-ever polls.




:wavey:

yes she is the greatest just in that polls....... :nerner:

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:59 PM
Graf.

Because I don't buy that Navi of 83/86 was worse than Navi of 88/89.

Take 1989: Without a transcendent Graf Navi would have won Wimbledon, USO (Navi was unbelievable that day!) and YEC that year. She would have had a 76-4 win/loss record and been CLEAR #1 in the rankings.

But peak Graf was unbeatable.

Statistics don´t support this theory, cali....all Martina´s stats: win-loss, titles won, results at the majors, etc....they all were considerable worse than in ´83-´86...and don´t think this had anything to do with Graf. Yeah, she had a couple of losses to Graf after ´86....but she was just LOSING more, period.

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:59 PM
Lower-class dumbo ...

you are ungrateful, mate

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Graf.

Because I don't buy that Navi of 83/86 was worse than Navi of 88/89.

Take 1989: Without a transcendent Graf Navi would have won Wimbledon, USO (Navi was unbelievable that day!) and YEC that year. She would have had a 76-4 win/loss record and been CLEAR #1 in the rankings.

But peak Graf was unbeatable.
What did she do in 1993 to be able to figure out Graf's game in Tokyo (and I realize Graf answered the call a year later, but still, it seems to me that it's a very tough call between these two).

Dominique Monami
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:18 PM
I'm curious calimero, strictly from a tennis perspective, on that hypothetical tennis court in the sky, with both players at the peak of their form, healthy, and playing well, with the same standard size racquets, who do you think would win the match- Steffi Graf or Martina Navratilova?


And have you been amazed by the Annie Wilkes, of tennis fans reply?

Dominique Monami
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.


It's - Dumbest And you don't talk on the board, you Write

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:26 PM
And have you been amazed by the Annie Wilkes, of tennis fans reply?
Amazed, no. Happy that the lines of communication are open, yes. Even Stephen King must have at one point or another communicated with or had a civilized conversation with an Annie Wilkes. You do have to admit, he does his homework...

Dominique Monami
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:35 PM
Amazed, no. Happy that the lines of communication are open, yes. Even Stephen King must have at one point or another communicated with or had a civilized conversation with an Annie Wilkes. You do have to admit, he does his homework...

When I referred to him as Annie Wilkes, it was not with malicious intent. There’s just no convincing him or others, when it comes to these matters. I myself am I tennis fan, not a fanatic. Which appears to be the stance that many on this board take.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Statistics don´t support this theory, cali....all Martina´s stats: win-loss, titles won, results at the majors, etc....they all were considerable worse than in ´83-´86...and don´t think this had anything to do with Graf. Yeah, she had a couple of losses to Graf after ´86....but she was just LOSING more, period.


From May 89 until March 90 Navi lost exactly THREE matches.
2-6, 7-6, 1-6 against Graf at Wimbledon (final). Navi would have beaten everybody else that day (Graf beat old Chrissie in the semis).
Same with USO final. Navi lost 6-3, 5-7, 1-6. Graf had beaten Sabby in semis. And with YEC when Graf beat Navi in a great match 6-4, 7-5, 2-6, 6-2 (Graf beating Sabby in semis as well.

If it weren't for Graf, Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak!!!!!!!!!!!!

Navi from May 89 until March 90 was as least as good as in 83-86.

G-Ha
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Statistics don´t support this theory, cali....all Martina´s stats: win-loss, titles won, results at the majors, etc....they all were considerable worse than in ´83-´86...and don´t think this had anything to do with Graf. Yeah, she had a couple of losses to Graf after ´86....but she was just LOSING more, period.
Really? Interesting that this theory apparently works when applying it to Navratilova and her alleged slump, but not Steffi's slump in the early 90s.

And I'm laughing at the claim that Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's losses at the majors, particularly Wimbledon. Steffi beats Navratilova back-to-back in '88 and '89, then someone beats Steffi for her and miraculously Navratilova is Wimbledon champ again in '90.

And if there was no Steffi, Navartilova would have been Wimbledon, US and YEC champ in 1989...3 of the largest tournaments of the year where she fell short to Steffi. Remind me again how Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's diminished results. :lol:

G-Ha
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Damn! I wasn't beaten to the punch by one minute!

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:42 PM
you are ungrateful, mate


You were asking for it, Tennistony ....

:lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:42 PM
When I referred to him as Annie Wilkes, it was not with malicious intent. There’s just no convincing him or others, when it comes to these matters. I myself am I tennis fan, not a fanatic. Which appears to be the stance that many on this board take.
:clap2:

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Damn! I wasn't beaten to the punch by one minute!


Two fighters - one thought .....

:wavey:

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:49 PM
From May 89 until March 90 Navi lost exactly THREE matches.
2-6, 7-6, 1-6 against Graf at Wimbledon (final). Navi would have beaten everybody else that day (Graf beat old Chrissie in the semis).
Same with USO final. Navi lost 6-3, 5-7, 1-6. Graf had beaten Sabby in semis. And with YEC when Graf beat Navi in a great match 6-4, 7-5, 2-6, 6-2 (Graf beating Sabby in semis as well.

If it weren't for Graf, Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak!!!!!!!!!!!!

Navi from May 89 until March 90 was as least as good as in 83-86.
While it is hard to argue with statistics like that, I personally feel like Navratilova played scared against Graf in 88 & 89. When she took the court against Steffi, you could see the fear in her face in those two years. Clearly, she was facing a challenge the likes of which she had never faced before, and was a little shakey- not the same old dominating Navratilova we were used to seeing, and I'm sure it was hard for her- especially with the knees beginning to go. I agree with you- that 89 Virginia Slims Final was the best match I've ever seen them play, but again, it's unfortunate that they only played 3 times after that- not at all in 1990 (when Graf herself began to shake a little bit), then that good (but not their best match) 1991 USO semi, and again not at all in 1992, once in Tokyo 93 and the last in Tokyo 94. Not enough IMO to really tell.

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 08:51 PM
You were asking for it, Tennistony ....

:lol:

:)
next time......I'll let you be torn by Selestials.......

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 09:00 PM
While it is hard to argue with statistics like that, I personally feel like Navratilova played scared against Graf in 88 & 89. When she took the court against Steffi, you could see the fear in her face in those two years. Clearly, she was facing a challenge the likes of which she had never faced before, and was a little shakey- not the same old dominating Navratilova we were used to seeing, and I'm sure it was hard for her- especially with the knees beginning to go. I agree with you- that 89 Virginia Slims Final was the best match I've ever seen them play, but again, it's unfortunate that they only played 3 times after that- not at all in 1990 (when Graf herself began to shake a little bit), then that good (but not their best match) 1991 USO semi, and again not at all in 1992, once in Tokyo 93 and the last in Tokyo 94. Not enough IMO to really tell.


Alfajeffster, I got statistics for everything ... ;)

BTW, you forgot Zürich 92. Navi lead Graf 6-2, 4-2 in the final. Lost the 2nd set 5-7. Lead again 4-2 in the decider. But lost 6-2, 5-7, 5-7 ....

OK, it's tough. I concede that peak Navi is the only player who played in the same league as peak Graf. It is a pity Graf never regained her 88/89 form. No, not even 95/96 Graf was the care-free young girl of 88/89 again. It all changed in May 90 with the devastating blackmail/media scandal. And injuries and injuries ....

alfajeffster
Dec 7th, 2004, 09:06 PM
I did forget Zurich- thanks for bringing that up- I've never seen that match, and would like to very much, and I always enjoyed watching Graf's matches on that green carpet. I'll never forget the way she dusted Sabatini's clock a month after the 1990 USO final on that same Zurich carpet, and Gaby didn't play badly that day.

Well, well. Thanks for the concession. There is hope for you yet!:wavey:

P.S.- I do believe that there are a handful of players in the history of women's tennis who played in the same league as Graf- it's a short list, but it has to include an on-form Margaret Court, certainly. She was very fast, very powerful, very accurate, and can you imagine her with a mid-sized graphite racquet?


Alfajeffster, I got statistics for everything ... ;)

BTW, you forgot Zürich 92. Navi lead Graf 6-2, 4-2 in the final. Lost the 2nd set 5-7. Lead again 4-2 in the decider. But lost 6-2, 5-7, 5-7 ....

OK, it's tough. I concede that peak Navi is the only player who played in the same league as peak Graf. It is a pity Graf never regained her 88/89 form. No, not even 95/96 Graf was the care-free young girl of 88/89 again. It all changed in May 90 with the devastating blackmail/media scandal. And injuries and injuries ....

tennislover
Dec 7th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Official bulletin:

" Due to his high merit, Greatest has been elected as supreme general of Selestials/Navratilovers troops"

Here is his statement released after the election:

"dear soldiers our first aim is to neutralize the most harmful member of enemy troops: general calimero.
We know that the war will be long and long: our enemies are few (not more than a dozen in the world) but they are touched by mad idolatry and they are so dangerous......
But we must be self confident and so victory will be ours"

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Really? Interesting that this theory apparently works when applying it to Navratilova and her alleged slump, but not Steffi's slump in the early 90s.

And I'm laughing at the claim that Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's losses at the majors, particularly Wimbledon. Steffi beats Navratilova back-to-back in '88 and '89, then someone beats Steffi for her and miraculously Navratilova is Wimbledon champ again in '90.

And if there was no Steffi, Navartilova would have been Wimbledon, US and YEC champ in 1989...3 of the largest tournaments of the year where she fell short to Steffi. Remind me again how Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's diminished results. :lol:

I did say that Steffi had something to do with it, but not all.....Martina of ´89 was good....still able to beat most opponents, that was approaching her ´83-´86 form....but her ´87 and ´88 were already showing that her peak was over....she was only winning like 8 tournaments a year on average, while she used to AVERAGE 14 or more between ´83-´86....

In fact ´87 she only reached ONE major final and didn´t win her first title till Wimbledon.

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Navratilova the same in 89 as in 83-86?? What a complete joke. You'll claim anything Calimero as long as it helps your case as Steffi being the best ever. It must get so lonely in your isolated tower of "My fave is the best and nothing anyone says will change that"..

But in the interest of debate, just to prove your ridiculous claim as ridiculous consider this:

In 1988/89 - Martina lost to the following people:

Larissa Savchenko (career head to head is 8-1), Natasha Zverava 3 TIMES!!!, Evert twice, Graf a few times, Sabatini, Sukova and the biggest proof of all - Zine Garrison Jackson, who's head to head with Martina is 33-1!!

So Martina in 1988, 1989 is losing to players like Savchenko and Garrison whom she completely owned the rest of her career. Im sorry, but the Martina of 83-86 DOES NOT LOSE 3 MATCHES TO NATASHA ZVEREVA!

Martina was obviously not at her peak anymore - she has openly talked about when working out her schedule for those years she was trying to work it out playing the fewest amount of tournaments possible - she was burntout.

It is a testimony to the strength of her game and how well it matched up with Graf that she still competed with Graf at all during these years.

Funny how Calimero thinks Martina peak continued well on past the age Graf retired - but ask Calimero to admit Martina's longevity is superior to Graf's - and watch him change his tune then. Bloody pathetic.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Official bulletin:

" Due to his high merit, Greatest has been elected as supreme general of Selestials/Navratilovers troops"

Here is his statement released after the election:

"dear soldiers our first aim is to neutralize the most harmful member of enemy troops: general calimero.
We know that the war will be long and long: our enemies are few (not more than a dozen in the world) but they are touched by mad idolatry and they are so dangerous......
But we must be self confident and so victory will be ours"


Sounds like Adolf on April 29th, 1945 .....

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Navratilova the same in 89 as in 83-86?? What a complete joke. You'll claim anything Calimero as long as it helps your case as Steffi being the best ever. It must get so lonely in your isolated tower of "My fave is the best and nothing anyone says will change that"..

But in the interest of debate, just to prove your ridiculous claim as ridiculous consider this:

In 1988/89 - Martina lost to the following people:

Larissa Savchenko (career head to head is 8-1), Natasha Zverava 3 TIMES!!!, Evert twice, Graf a few times, Sabatini, Sukova and the biggest proof of all - Zine Garrison Jackson, who's head to head with Martina is 33-1!!

So Martina in 1988, 1989 is losing to players like Savchenko and Garrison whom she completely owned the rest of her career. Im sorry, but the Martina of 83-86 DOES NOT LOSE 3 MATCHES TO NATASHA ZVEREVA!

Martina was obviously not at her peak anymore - she has openly talked about when working out her schedule for those years she was trying to work it out playing the fewest amount of tournaments possible - she was burntout.

It is a testimony to the strength of her game and how well it matched up with Graf that she still competed with Graf at all during these years.

Funny how Calimero thinks Martina peak continued well on past the age Graf retired - but ask Calimero to admit Martina's longevity is superior to Graf's - and watch him change his tune then. Bloody pathetic.


What about

"Navi would have had a 70-match winning-streak in 89/90 if it weren't for her 3 losses against transcendent Graf in Wim, USO & YEC 89 finals (3 classics!)"

Loserfan didn't understand?


:confused:

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:32 PM
What about

"Navi would have had a 70-match winning-streak in 89/90 if it weren't for her 3 losses against transcendent Graf in Wim, USO & YEC 89 finals (3 classics!)"

Loserfan didn't understand?


:confused:
What about 3 losses to Zvereva, one to Savchenko, one to Garrison??

Dickwad didnt understand?

Does that mean, Cali that you admit Martina's longevity is superior to Steffi's?

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:46 PM
Interesting point, indeed.....yeah Cali, I never got that one either. How is it that we have to consider steffi after ´96 as an old Steffi when she was just 28/29 but Martina of ´88/´89 isn´t considered old. That Martina still had some flashes doesn´t mean she was as good as her peak ´83-´86 form.

Steffi DID reach two major finals in ´99....so I think we can call that a peak Graf too, no? And she was younger even then than Martina N was when Steffi took over from her.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:48 PM
What about 3 losses to Zvereva, one to Savchenko, one to Garrison??

Dickwad didnt understand?

Does that mean, Cali that you admit Martina's longevity is superior to Steffi's?


Shriver's longevity was quite impressive too.
As was Seles's bright flash in the pan.

Your point being?

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:57 PM
Shriver's longevity was quite impressive too.
As was Seles's bright flash in the pan.

Your point being?
My point is that there are different areas of a players career that counts towards their overall legacy and greatness - IMO, Longevity is one of those areas, as is dominance, records and achievements etc etc.

So if you actually believe that Martina played at her total peak from 83 through 89, thats 7 straight years at her peak without her standard dropping off - therefore you would HAVE to concede that Martina's longevity is superior to Graf's.

So I would just be happy to hear you admit that.. thats all.

Shrivers longevity and Seles longevity? You show glimpses of intelligent debate and throw shit like that in which just undermines any credibility you do build.

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Cali...how can you compare Martina N with Seles, let alone shriver? WImbledon, wimbledon....NINE of them to be exact....if as you say Wimbledon is the measure of greatness, then Martina N is in EVERY conversation.....because 9>7...

funny how when it was Steffi vs Seles, the other majors didn´t count...all about Wimbledon. Now that it´s Martina vs Steffi, suddenly we have to look to other majors.

Something isn´t right here..:scratch:

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:12 PM
Interesting point, indeed.....yeah Cali, I never got that one either. How is it that we have to consider steffi after ´96 as an old Steffi when she was just 28/29 but Martina of ´88/´89 isn´t considered old. That Martina still had some flashes doesn´t mean she was as good as her peak ´83-´86 form.

Steffi DID reach two major finals in ´99....so I think we can call that a peak Graf too, no? And she was younger even then than Martina N was when Steffi took over from her.


Navi won her 3rd slam (3rd slam being the threshold to stardom!) when she was 25 years old, Graf when she was 18 years old. 7 year difference. And reconstructive knee surgery - a surgery that never ever had been tried with a top professional player before.

7 year difference. So a 27 year old Graf (1996) is definitely comparable to a 32 year old Navi (1989).

Graf of 1999 was only a shadow of her former self. She struggled against Hingis at FO and against V. Williams at Wimbledon. Players she would have thoroughly waxed in her 1996 form. Not even mentioning her 1989 form ....

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:16 PM
Cali...how can you compare Martina N with Seles, let alone shriver? WImbledon, wimbledon....NINE of them to be exact....if as you say Wimbledon is the measure of greatness, then Martina N is in EVERY conversation.....because 9>7...

funny how when it was Steffi vs Seles, the other majors didn´t count...all about Wimbledon. Now that it´s Martina vs Steffi, suddenly we have to look to other majors.

Something isn´t right here..:scratch:
Its called inconsitency/hypocrisy/twisting the stats to suit your agenda.

Calimero is the definitive Graf fan that wants to have it both ways..

They want Wimbledon to be worth more than other slams - so Seles lack of a Wimbledon is a glaring ommission - but then when reminded of Navratilova's 9 wimbledons - suddenly the fact Graf won them all 4 times is more important than just Wimbledon... They want Grand slams totals to be the only criteria for best ever as Steffi has 22 - then when reminded that Court has 24 slams so she must be the best - they attack the fact that half of hers were in Australia and on grass etc (i.e looking at WHY she has 24 slams - ignoring the stabbing and WHY Steffi has 22)..

Now theres a new one to add - That Graf was in a 'slump' in the early 90's which somehow excuses her losses, but Martina was still at her peak right up to 1990 when she is pushing 34 years of age..

Its pretty funny how hypocritical your average Grafanatic can get when you take a step back..

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:21 PM
Cali...how can you compare Martina N with Seles, let alone shriver? WImbledon, wimbledon....NINE of them to be exact....if as you say Wimbledon is the measure of greatness, then Martina N is in EVERY conversation.....because 9>7...

funny how when it was Steffi vs Seles, the other majors didn´t count...all about Wimbledon. Now that it´s Martina vs Steffi, suddenly we have to look to other majors.

Something isn´t right here..:scratch:


Martina is in every conversation. She is the 2nd best player ever.

I never said the other slams don't count.
Navi has 2 Wimbledons more than Graf.
But Graf has 6 other slams more. Plus Olympic gold. And Golden Slam.

Let's evaluate slams & Olympics:

Olympics/AO = 2,
FO/USO = 3,
Wim = 5

That gives Navi 72 pts., Graf 78 pts., Evert 58 pts, Court 67 pts., Seles 23 pts.

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:27 PM
How the fuck can you include Olympics when it only became an Olympic sport in 1988?

The players before then DIDNT HAVE THE CHANCE to win the gold so please stop using the Olympics like it means a goddam thing!

faboozadoo15
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:30 PM
wimb,ledon is more than twice as valuable as the australian... and nearly twice as valuable as the us open and the french open? dream the fuck on. :rolleyes:

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:33 PM
Navi won her 3rd slam (3rd slam being the threshold to stardom!) when she was 25 years old, Graf when she was 18 years old. 7 year difference. And reconstructive knee surgery - a surgery that never ever had been tried with a top professional player before.

7 year difference. So a 27 year old Graf (1996) is definitely comparable to a 32 year old Navi (1989).

Graf of 1999 was only a shadow of her former self. She struggled against Hingis at FO and against V. Williams at Wimbledon. Players she would have thoroughly waxed in her 1996 form. Not even mentioning her 1989 form ....



Hmm....so you´re saying a peak Navratilova was capable of losing to Zvereva THREE times?! Wow.....

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:35 PM
At least Calimero acknowledges that Martina's longevity is far superior to Graf's/

I'll consider that my small victory for today :):) hehehe

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:37 PM
Martina is in every conversation. She is the 2nd best player ever.

I never said the other slams don't count.
Navi has 2 Wimbledons more than Graf.
But Graf has 6 other slams more. Plus Olympic gold. And Golden Slam.

Let's evaluate slams & Olympics:

Olympics/AO = 2,
FO/USO = 3,
Wim = 5

That gives Navi 72 pts., Graf 78 pts., Evert 58 pts, Court 67 pts., Seles 23 pts.

Not fair to add Olympics..because tennis didn´t become Olympic until ´88...so other players before that never got the chance...

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:19 AM
How the fuck can you include Olympics when it only became an Olympic sport in 1988?

The players before then DIDNT HAVE THE CHANCE to win the gold so please stop using the Olympics like it means a goddam thing!


Navi could have won it in 88, no?

BTW, there are some retardos here who blab about a certain "YEC" all the time ...

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:23 AM
No she couldnt have as she didnt compete.

The Olympics dont even draw all the top players - in 1988 it was like the Australian Open or French Open of the late 70's, early 80's.

The YEC's are held every year and all the top players compete.

Your analagy is just fundamentally flawed, as is almost everything else you post.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:28 AM
Hmm....so you´re saying a peak Navratilova was capable of losing to Zvereva THREE times?! Wow.....


Navi didn't play Zvereva between May 89 and March 90.
But she played Seles once (Feb 90) and won 6-3, 6-0. Seles went on to win FO 4 months later.

Navi played 70 matches in that time-frame. She lost 3 matches. All of them against peak prime Graf in great matches. I don't think Navi was ever better ...

In spring of 90 Navi AND Graf took a sharp nose dive. Seles profited. The rest is history.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Not fair to add Olympics..because tennis didn´t become Olympic until ´88...so other players before that never got the chance...


Graf never got the chance to win 11 AOs with most of the field being Australian locals ...

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:33 AM
Navi didn't play Zvereva between May 89 and March 90.
But she played Seles once (Feb 90) and won 6-3, 6-0. Seles went on to win FO 4 months later.

Navi played 70 matches in that time-frame. She lost 3 matches. All of them against peak prime Graf in great matches. I don't think Navi was ever better ...

In spring of 90 Navi AND Graf took a sharp nose dive. Seles profited. The rest is history.
Cali - stop avoiding the challnge to your assumption and address the challenge.

You have said Martina in 88,n 89 was at her peak, now I understand your point about her possible winning streak, but why is it that a PEAK Navratilova can lose to Garrison whom she never lost to before, Savchenko whom she never lost to before and Zvereva whom she lost to 3 times during those years. - answer the question.

You cannot just grab a period of May 89 to March 1990 and use that as your ammuntion - its just grabbing whatever period suits your case and using that, ignoring all contrdictory evidence.

Im sure LDV and his PHD would find many flaws in your SELECTIVe stat grabbing.

And saying IF Martina hadnt lost to Graf in that period is a huge if - Martina certiainly was not invincible in 88, 89 and she could have lost to whoever else in the final had it not been Graf - her inconsistent days were becoming more fequent as EVIDENCED by the examples I gave.

You just speak out your ass non stop.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Cali - stop avoiding the challnge to your assumption and address the challenge.

You have said Martina in 88,n 89 was at her peak, now I understand your point about her possible winning streak, but why is it that a PEAK Navratilova can lose to Garrison whom she never lost to before, Savchenko whom she never lost to before and Zvereva whom she lost to 3 times during those years. - answer the question.

You cannot just grab a period of May 89 to March 1990 and use that as your ammuntion - its just grabbing whatever period suits your case and using that, ignoring all contrdictory evidence.
....

That coming from a rabid Selesian ("from November 1990 until April 1993") - priceless!!!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:45 AM
9 months vs 2.5 years

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:52 AM
Navi didn't play Zvereva between May 89 and March 90.
But she played Seles once (Feb 90) and won 6-3, 6-0. Seles went on to win FO 4 months later.

Navi played 70 matches in that time-frame. She lost 3 matches. All of them against peak prime Graf in great matches. I don't think Navi was ever better ...

In spring of 90 Navi AND Graf took a sharp nose dive. Seles profited. The rest is history.


You don´t think so or you don´t WANNA BELIEVE so?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:54 AM
9 months vs 2.5 years


Yes, 10 months vs. 2.5 years.


Another difference:

Navi lost only 3 times in those 10 months. All 3 losses were against #1 Graf. And she won not a single match against Graf.

Graf lost 19 matches in those 2.5 years. Only 2 losses were against #1 Seles. But she won 3 matches against Seles.

You getting the point?
Slowly?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:57 AM
You don´t think so or you don´t WANNA BELIEVE so?


What about

"Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak without her 3 losses against Graf"

you couldn't read?

:confused:

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:00 AM
Calimero wrote:

Because I don't buy that Navi of 83/86 was worse than Navi of 88/89.

You wrote 2 whole years Cali - explain the other UNEXPLAINABLE losses to the players Ive mentioned during that period?

Or were you WRONG in your previous post? Should you have only posted from May 89 to march 1990??

Which one is it? Was Martina at her peak through all of 88, 89 as you said earlier, or only for those 10 months that you are now saying??

Dumbo didnt grasp???

Dumbo just ignoring contradictory evidence and holes in his own argument??

Moron.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Yeah, cali.....you´re al talking about ´89-´90 a brief spell of rebirth for Martina....just like Graf past ´96.....what about ´87-´89? That was peak too? only 4/5 titles a year and no majors after ´87?

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:33 AM
His claim has been proven as shit Bandy, but this is why these debates have no real point - even though Ive proven his point as being bullshit he wont backtrack or admit it.

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:00 AM
yes she is the greatest just in that polls....... :nerner:



Steffi of course won the German polls.. :lol: .I just wonder how many times Gunther Parche and Calimero voted....24/7 :lol:

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

It would also help them to have no knowledge of Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova.

Take away Monica Seles, Gunther Parche, Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova ... completely wipe them away as if they never existed ... then, Steffi Graf would get my vote as the #1 women's tennis player of all time.

Of course, the problem with this is the fact that Seles, Parche, Wills Moody, Evert and Navratilova existed. :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Calimero can go fuck him/her self. He or she is the dummest person that I have ever talked to on one of these boards.


Brilliant Selking!!!!!!!!! :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:15 AM
Steffi was better in water-polo than Navi.
your point being?

did you know that during their rivalry (Navratilova's 13th through 22nd year on the WTA Tour) Navratilova won 5 of 6 of her semifinal matches vs. Graf?

If Graf were still playing today, it would be her 22nd year.

did you know that Graf NEVER led in her head-to-head rivalry vs. Navratilova even though they were 7-7 in the 1980s and 2-2 in the 1990s? :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:22 AM
From May 89 until March 90 Navi lost exactly THREE matches.
2-6, 7-6, 1-6 against Graf at Wimbledon (final). Navi would have beaten everybody else that day (Graf beat old Chrissie in the semis).
Same with USO final. Navi lost 6-3, 5-7, 1-6. Graf had beaten Sabby in semis. And with YEC when Graf beat Navi in a great match 6-4, 7-5, 2-6, 6-2 (Graf beating Sabby in semis as well.

If it weren't for Graf, Navi would have had a 70-match winning streak!!!!!!!!!!!!

Navi from May 89 until March 90 was as least as good as in 83-86.

I don't recall Navratilova having a jealous fan of hers stabbing Evert or Graf in the back with a knife.

Navratilova won an all-time record 9 Wimbledon singles titles without a jealous fan of hers stabbing the back of Evert or Graf.

Navratilova won an all-time record 8 WTA Tour Championships without a jealous fan of hers stabbing the back of Evert or Graf.

Navratilova won an all-time record 167 WTA Tour singles titles without a jealous fan of hers stabbing the back of Evert or Graf.

Navratilova won a record 6 Wimbledon singles titles -- she got to the final round of Wimbledon in 9 consecutive years vs. 3 years in a row for Graf -- she got to the quarters or better in 20 consecutive Wimbledons vs. 10 years in a row for Graf.

Navratilova had a tremendous career with some all-time records at some of the biggest events in the world and in both singles and doubles -- and she accomplished these without a jealous fan of her stabbing the back of Evert or Graf. :lol:

Great Seles
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:37 AM
Really? Interesting that this theory apparently works when applying it to Navratilova and her alleged slump, but not Steffi's slump in the early 90s.

And I'm laughing at the claim that Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's losses at the majors, particularly Wimbledon. Steffi beats Navratilova back-to-back in '88 and '89, then someone beats Steffi for her and miraculously Navratilova is Wimbledon champ again in '90.

And if there was no Steffi, Navartilova would have been Wimbledon, US and YEC champ in 1989...3 of the largest tournaments of the year where she fell short to Steffi. Remind me again how Steffi had nothing to do with Navratilova's diminished results. :lol:

Where were their biggest matches? Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova had the winning edge vs. Graf at Grand Slam events ... Navratilova also had the winning edge vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf where it counted most -- the biggest events in the world.

Well, let's COUNT them then:

GRAND SLAM EVENTS

First, we will start with the Grand Slam events --- let's limit the results to the Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon and U.S. Open Championships --- since these actually are the Grand Slam events:

1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-3
1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-1 6-7 7-6
1987-05-25 French Open Clay F Steffi Graf won 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Navratilova won 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Navratilova won 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf won 3-6 7-5 6-1
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 7-6 6-7 6-4

Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Grand Slam events ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Grand Slam events that were won in straight sets ... 3 of Navratilova's 5 match wins vs. Graf in Grand Slam events were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets in a Grand Slam event --- but then, Graf only won 4 matches against Navratilova in Grand Slam events to begin with.

TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS

Next, we will look at the Tour Championships --- let's limit the results to the singles since Steffi Graf did not play doubles --

1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-2
1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships F Navratilova won 7-6 6-3 6-2
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships F Steffi Graf won 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2

Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Tour Championships ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Tour Championships that were won in straight sets ... both of Navratilova's 2 match wins vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets the WTA Tour Championships --- but then, Graf only won 1 match against Navratilova at the WTA Tour Championships to begin with.

And Navratilova's results was diminished by Graf???...Very Interesting theory by the Graf fans...Hilarious

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:55 AM
Where were their biggest matches? Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova had the winning edge vs. Graf at Grand Slam events ... Navratilova also had the winning edge vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf where it counted most -- the biggest events in the world.

Well, let's COUNT them then:

GRAND SLAM EVENTS

First, we will start with the Grand Slam events --- let's limit the results to the Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon and U.S. Open Championships --- since these actually are the Grand Slam events:

1985-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-3
1986-08-25 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 6-1 6-7 7-6
1987-05-25 French Open Clay F Steffi Graf won 6-4 4-6 8-6
1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Navratilova won 7-5 6-3
1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Navratilova won 7-6 6-1
1988-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 5-7 6-2 6-1
1989-06-26 Wimbledon Grass F Steffi Graf won 6-2 6-7 6-1
1989-08-28 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Steffi Graf won 3-6 7-5 6-1
1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova won 7-6 6-7 6-4

Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Grand Slam events ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Grand Slam events that were won in straight sets ... 3 of Navratilova's 5 match wins vs. Graf in Grand Slam events were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets in a Grand Slam event --- but then, Graf only won 4 matches against Navratilova in Grand Slam events to begin with.

TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS

Next, we will look at the Tour Championships --- let's limit the results to the singles since Steffi Graf did not play doubles --

1986-03-17 Virginia Slims Championships SF Navratilova won 6-2 6-2
1986-11-17 Virginia Slims Championships F Navratilova won 7-6 6-3 6-2
1989-11-13 Virginia Slims Championships F Steffi Graf won 6-4 7-5 2-6 6-2

Not only a winning record for Navratilova vs. Graf in the Tour Championships ... Navratilova won their only matches at the Tour Championships that were won in straight sets ... both of Navratilova's 2 match wins vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships were won in straight sets ... Graf never beat Navratilova in straight sets the WTA Tour Championships --- but then, Graf only won 1 match against Navratilova at the WTA Tour Championships to begin with.

And Navratilova's results was diminished by Graf???...Very Interesting theory by the Graf fans...Hilarious



There biggest matches were the ones they played at the biggest events --- Wimbledon, U.S. Open, Australian Open, French Open and WTA Tour Championships ....

Navratilova had the winning edge vs. Graf at Grand Slam events ... Navratilova also had the winning edge vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships.

Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf where it counted most -- the biggest events in the world :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:59 AM
Yeah, cali.....you´re al talking about ´89-´90 a brief spell of rebirth for Martina....just like Graf past ´96.....what about ´87-´89? That was peak too? only 4/5 titles a year and no majors after ´87?


Also interesting that in the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until one of the jealous Graf fans decided to plant a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles on a changeover in Germany, the head-to-head records vs. Steffi Graf for both Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles had Graf losing to both of these players -- and Navratilova was in her 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st years on the tour in those years. :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:02 AM
His claim has been proven as shit Bandy, but this is why these debates have no real point - even though Ive proven his point as being bullshit he wont backtrack or admit it.

Czech,

tiny Calimero377 is trying so hard.

He lost the war a long, long time ago ... but he is still trying to fight the battles.

Got to give this tiny kid, Calimero377, credit for his effort. :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:37 AM
Pick up a copy of THIS: Navratilova ranked in the top 10 at the end of the season in twenty (20) consecutive years between the years 1975 and 1994, including nineteen (19) consecutive years in the top 5 of women's tennis.


1994
1. Steffi Graf
2. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
3. Conchita Martinez
4. Jana Novotna
5. Mary Pierce
6. Lindsay Davenport
7. Gabriela Sabatini
8. Martina Navratilova
9. Kimiko Date
10. Natasha Zvereva

1993
1. Steffi Graf
2. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Conchita Martinez
5. Gabriela Sabatini
6. Jana Novotna
7. Mary Joe Fernandez
8. Monica Seles*
9. Jennifer Capriati
10. Anke Huber

1992
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
5. Martina Navratilova
6. Mary Joe Fernandez
7. Jennifer Capriati
8. Conchita Martinez
9. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
10. Jana Novotna

1991
1. Monica Seles
2. Steffi Graf
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
6. Jennifer Capriati
7. Jana Novotna
8. Mary Joe Fernandez
9. Conchita Martinez
10. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere

1990
1. Steffi Graf
2. Monica Seles
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Mary Joe Fernandez
5. Gabriela Sabatini
6. Katerina Maleeva
7. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario
8. Jennifer Capriati
9. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
10. Zina Garrison

1989
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Gabriela Sabatini
4. Zina Garrison
5. Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario
6. Monica Seles
7. Conchita Martinez
8. Helena Sukova
9. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
10. Chris Evert**

1988
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Gabriela Sabatini
5. Pam Shriver
6. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
7. Natasha Zvereva
8. Helena Sukova
9. Zina Garrison
10. Barbara Potter

1987
1. Steffi Graf
2. Martina Navratilova
3. Chris Evert
4. Pam Shriver
5. Hana Mandlikova
6. Gabriela Sabatini
7. Helena Sukova
8. Manuela Maleeva-Fragniere
9. Zina Garrison
10. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch

1986
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Steffi Graf
4. Hana Mandlikova
5. Helena Sukova
6. Pam Shriver
7. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch
8. Manuela Maleeva
9. Kathy Rinaldi
10. Gabriela Sabatini

1985
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Hana Mandlikova
4. Pam Shriver
5. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch
6. Steffi Graf
7. Manuela Maleeva
8. Zina Garrison
9. Helena Sukova
10. Bonnie Gadusek

1984
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Hana Mandlikova
4. Pam Shriver
5. Wendy Turnbull
6. Manuela Maleeva
7. Helena Sukova
8. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch
9. Zina Garrison
10. Kathy Jordan

1983
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Andrea Jaeger
4. Pam Shriver
5. Sylvia Hanika
6. Jo Durie
7. Bettina Bunge
8. Wendy Turnbull
9. Tracy Austin
10. Zina Garrison

1982
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Andrea Jaeger
4. Tracy Austin
5. Wendy Turnbull
6. Pam Shriver
7. Hana Mandlikova
8. Barbara Potter
9. Bettina Bunge
10.Sylvia Hanika

1981
1. Chris Evert
2. Tracy Austin
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Andrea Jaeger
5. Hana Mandlikova
6. Sylvia Hanika
7. Pam Shriver
8. Wendy Turnbull
9. Bettina Bunge
10. Barbara Potter

1980
1. Chris Evert
2. Tracy Austin
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Hana Mandlikova
5. Evonne Goolagong Cawley
6. Billie Jean King
7. Andrea Jaeger
8. Wendy Turnbull
9. Pam Shriver
10. Greer Stevens

1979
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Tracy Austin
4. Evonne Goolagong Cawley
5. Billie Jean King
6. Dianne Balestrat
7. Wendy Turnbull
8. Virginia Wade
9. Kerry Reid
10.Sue Barker

1978
1. Martina Navratilova
2. Chris Evert
3. Evonne Goolagong Cawley
4. Virginia Wade
5. Billie Jean King
6. Tracy Austin
7. Wendy Turnbull
8. Terry Reid
9. Betty Stove
10. Dianne Balestrat

1977
1. Chris Evert
2. Billie Jean King
3. Martina Navratilova
4. Virginia Wade
5. Sue Barker,
6. Rosie Casals
7. Betty Stove
8. Dianne Balestrat
9. Wendy Turnbull
10. Kerry Reid

1976
1. Chris Evert
2. Evonne Goolagong Cawley
3. Virginia Wade
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Sue Barker
6. Betty Stove
7. Dianne Balestrat
8. Mima Jausovec
9. Rosie Casals
10. Francoise Durr

1975
1. Chris Evert
2. Billie Jean King
3. Evonne Goolagong Cawley
4. Martina Navratilova
5. Virginia Wade
6. Margaret Smith Court
7. Olga Morozova
8. Nancy Richey Gunter
9. Francoise Durr
10. Rosie Casals

:lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:54 AM
9 months vs 2.5 years

Well, let's put it THIS way, Czech ... Tracy Austin, Chris Evert and Hana Mandlikova combined could not limit Martina Navratilova to just 3 of the 15 major titles in 3 consecutive years as Steffi Graf was limited to in 1990, 1991 and 1992 by Monica Seles. :lol:

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:59 AM
Statistics don´t support this theory, cali....all Martina´s stats: win-loss, titles won, results at the majors, etc....they all were considerable worse than in ´83-´86...and don´t think this had anything to do with Graf. Yeah, she had a couple of losses to Graf after ´86....but she was just LOSING more, period.


FACTS:

All-time leading singles title holder at Wimbledon in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with nine (9).

All-time leading singles title holder at the WTA Tour Championships in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with eight (8).

Navratilova is the only woman who has the all-time record for most singles titles won at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

The others?

Evert at the French Open.
Mallory at the U.S. Open.
Court at the Australian Open.

Steffi Graf does not have the all-time record for most singles titles at any of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Just the facts, ma'am. :lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:06 PM
Graf never got the chance to win 11 AOs with most of the field being Australian locals ...
Okay, I can't let that one slip cali- tennis of the 1960s was dominated by Australians- and not just Margaret Smith Court, either. There had never been before, and there has not since been a dynasty the likes of which the world saw from Australian tennis between 1952-1972. Margaret Court also won 5 French Titles, 5 United States titles, and 3 Wimbledon crowns, THE GRAND SLAM in 1970, and 3 other years won 3 out of 4 majors in the same year, and we won't even go into doubles and mixed titles all over the planet. The dis on her 11 Australian titles gets a little old after while. Beating Margaret Court in Australia was comparable to beating Steffi Graf in Germany. More people have scaled Everest.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Thx alfa.....because it doesn´t matter who was or wasn´t there....as long as Margareth was there, the field mattered....because during that era it was margareth who was the best player in the world.

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 03:42 PM
FACTS:

All-time leading singles title holder at Wimbledon in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with nine (9).

All-time leading singles title holder at the WTA Tour Championships in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with eight (8).

Navratilova is the only woman who has the all-time record for most singles titles won at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

The others?

Evert at the French Open.
Mallory at the U.S. Open.
Court at the Australian Open.

Steffi Graf does not have the all-time record for most singles titles at any of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Just the facts, ma'am. :lol:
Just an aside- Margaret Court won more singles tournaments (over 190+ and we're still counting) than Martina Navratilova.

Andy T
Dec 8th, 2004, 04:42 PM
Just an aside- Margaret Court won more singles tournaments (over 190+ and we're still counting) than Martina Navratilova.

183 confirmed so far, Jeff. I'm not gonna get dragged into this thread, though.

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 05:01 PM
183 confirmed so far, Jeff. I'm not gonna get dragged into this thread, though.
Too late you Navratilover, you! :lol: Hey, it's that dead zone between the YEC and the Aussie Open- what else is there to do besides dig up and beat dead horses that never lived? So at least come to the aid of the WTAWorld challenged: where is her list of titles to be found in this web site?

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:26 PM
The point that I bring up & it is a very valid one is that Seles never won Wimbledon & Martina N only won 2 French finals....Steffis record all around is superior Martina N is the best grass court player but Steffis 7 wins are right behind......At the French Steffi won 6 times Seles 3 & Martina N 2 of course Chris Evert is the clay queen with 7 titles there point being Steffi was the best all around all court/surface player ever & those words come from Martina Navratilova in the book Tennis Confidential by Paul Stein...Steffi is the only player male/female to win each slam 4 times ....I do rate Seles & Martina N & Chris as all worthy challengers to be the best all time but Steffi reigns supreme

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:09 PM
183 confirmed so far, Jeff. I'm not gonna get dragged into this thread, though.Okay Zsa Zsa, if you're not going to get dragged into this thread so easily, here are the other 7 Margaret Court tournaments you missed to bring the total to 190+:

1962 Wimbledon: (Smith def. Sukova 6-0,6-0) (a mysterious lineswoman wearing cats-eye Billie Jean Moffitt glasses streaked across the court, ripping all her clothes off in front of a stunned Centre Court crowd, declaring her love for finalist Karen Hantze, forcing officials to reverse and reinstate the top seed's stunning opening round upset);

1964 Wimbledon: (Smith def. Bueno- walkover) (Bueno was up a break and playing well in the third set, when she piroetted for a balletic volley and a certain mail athletic accoutrement fell from her Tinling-designed lace panties, and AELTCC officials disqualified her on the spot);

1972 U.S. Open: (Court def. Melville 6-4,6-4) (upon instituting the very first instant replay in tennis history, USLTA officials disqualified Billie Jean King's win in the semis because upon review, silent official Gladys Heldman noted that Billie just looked all wrong in technicolor wearing a pink dress);

1973 Wimbledon: (Court def. King 7-5,6-4) (after Chris defaulted at the beginning of the first game of the third set of the semi because Jimmy Connors was seen kissing Ilie Nastase in the friends box);

1975 Australian: (Court def. Goolagong 6-0,3-6,6-4) (after young Czech Martina Navratilova, who was ahead a set and a break on Court in the QF, was forced by ALTA officals to withdraw and play in an all-lefty consolation draw);

1979 U.S. Open: (Court def. Evert 6-2,7-5) (Pigtailed Tracy Austin was disqualified as being to young to play, and recent Hall of Fame Inductee Court was called out of the crowd to complete the stunning upset); and

1988 Wimbledon: (Court def. Graf 5-7,6-2,6-0) (during a lengthy rain delayed and controversial semi between Evert and Navratilova, they showed the 1970 film of the Court/King marathon once too often, and a crazed Graf fan bolted out of the crowd with Court in tow, forcing officials at gun point to allow Court to finish the match where Navratilova was faltering in the second set. Court promptly picked up Navratilova's racquet, began playing left-handed for the first time in her life, and went on to blow Steffi's socks off to complete her 190th, and final tournament victory)!

There- satisfied?:lol:

DA FOREHAND
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:10 PM
The whole Nav/Seles vs Graf crowd wars had pretty much died down on these boards until the last few months when Calimero started posting.

He posts amazingly bullshit facts, the most one sided, insecure, fanatical account of the early 90's to the point where his thoughts and opinions are just laughable.

Most Graf/Nav/Seles supporters realised that the debates are endless and noone convinces anyone on the other side to change their opinions so theres no real point to it.

But because Calimero leads such a pathetic existence, he admittedly comes to the boards just to fight with Nav/Seles fans. So theres your explanation as to why these threads have popped up all over the place again.
B***h!

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Yeah, cali.....you´re al talking about ´89-´90 a brief spell of rebirth for Martina....just like Graf past ´96.....what about ´87-´89? That was peak too? only 4/5 titles a year and no majors after ´87?


Navi won 9 titles in 1988 and 8 in 1989.
Why didn' she win majors after 87? Well, take a guess.
Why didn't she have a 70-match winning-streak in 89/90. Come on, take another guess.

Navi was clearly the second-best player from August 1987 until October 1990. She played her best USO final ever in 1989. Her Wimbledon final performances in 1988 and 1989 were on the same level as in 1982-87. But never had played an opponent like Graf in her 88/89 peak form.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Also interesting that in the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until one of the jealous Graf fans decided to plant a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles on a changeover in Germany, the head-to-head records vs. Steffi Graf for both Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles had Graf losing to both of these players -- and Navratilova was in her 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st years on the tour in those years. :lol:


Graf was 4-0 H2H against Navi in 88/89 but 1-2 in 91/93.
Why?


Of course! Navi was better in 91/93 than in 88/89 ......
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you know by now why Seles was #1 in 91/93?
Does it creep up your spine ... ?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Okay, I can't let that one slip cali- tennis of the 1960s was dominated by Australians- and not just Margaret Smith Court, either. There had never been before, and there has not since been a dynasty the likes of which the world saw from Australian tennis between 1952-1972. Margaret Court also won 5 French Titles, 5 United States titles, and 3 Wimbledon crowns, THE GRAND SLAM in 1970, and 3 other years won 3 out of 4 majors in the same year, and we won't even go into doubles and mixed titles all over the planet. The dis on her 11 Australian titles gets a little old after while. Beating Margaret Court in Australia was comparable to beating Steffi Graf in Germany. More people have scaled Everest.


In 1952-72 girls and women in non-English-speaking countries simply didn't play tennis.
What do you think how many girls were playing tennis seriously in 1952 or 1972 world-wide - meaning exercising/playing at least 3 hours a day? 100 in 1952? 500 in 1972?

When Graf played in the 80ies/90ies or today there were/are at least 10,000.
The pool of talent was FAAAAAAR smaller in 1952-1972 than in 1986-2004.

It is statistically safe to say that a #10 player in 1960 had far less talent than a #100 player of today. A #10 player from 1952 would not have been able to take a single game from Graf of 1988 or Henin from 2003.

Statistically seen Marlene Weingärtner must have about the same talent as Helen Wills-Moody had back in the 30ies. Face it.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Navi won 9 titles in 1988 and 8 in 1989.
Why didn' she win majors after 87? Well, take a guess.
Why didn't she have a 70-match winning-streak in 89/90. Come on, take another guess.

Navi was clearly the second-best player from August 1987 until October 1990. She played her best USO final ever in 1989. Her Wimbledon final performances in 1988 and 1989 were on the same level as in 1982-87. But never had played an opponent like Graf in her 88/89 peak form.

So you´re saying that Martina N had a peak from ´82- ´90? Is THAT what you´re saying? 9 years in a row at peak level? Come on Cali.....

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:46 PM
In 1952-72 girls and women in non-English-speaking countries simply didn't play tennis.
What do you think how many girls were playing tennis seriously in 1952 or 1972 world-wide - meaning exercising/playing at least 3 hours a day? 100 in 1952? 500 in 1972?

When Graf played in the 80ies/90ies or today there were/are at least 10,000.
The pool of talent was FAAAAAAR smaller in 1952-1972 than in 1986-2004.

It is statistically safe to say that a #10 player in 1960 had far less talent than a #100 player of today. A #10 player from 1952 would not have been able to take a single game from Graf of 1988 or Henin from 2003.

Statistically seen Marlene Weingärtner must have about the same talent as Helen Wills-Moody had back in the 30ies. Face it.


Probably...but we aren´t talking about those...we´re talking about the Courts, BJK´s, Goolagongs of this world.....those top 10 players weren´t winning back then either....but the Courts, BJk´s sure did.

You don´t really think that steffi vs margareth would be a walk in the park for Steffi do you?

p.s.: You keep talking about Henin this and that....Henin wasn´t even the best in 2003..she only became that AFTER Serena went down.

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:54 PM
The point that I bring up & it is a very valid one is that Seles never won Wimbledon & Martina N only won 2 French finals....Steffis record all around is superior Martina N is the best grass court player but Steffis 7 wins are right behind......At the French Steffi won 6 times Seles 3 & Martina N 2 of course Chris Evert is the clay queen with 7 titles there point being Steffi was the best all around all court/surface player ever & those words come from Martina Navratilova in the book Tennis Confidential by Paul Stein...Steffi is the only player male/female to win each slam 4 times ....I do rate Seles & Martina N & Chris as all worthy challengers to be the best all time but Steffi reigns supreme

Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.

These are the major records in women's tennis that date back decades and decades to 1925 and earlier.

No stabbings of the top players by any of these 5 players or their fans.

Graf has a couple of records, but they are tied to much more recent developments in the 1970s -- things like most weeks ranked #1 since the WTA began in the early 1970s and most hardcourt Slams.

Pretty sad to not be the best at anything dating back to before the Open Era in tennis began in 1968 -- especially since Graf and her career will always have the stabbing incident.

Steffi Graf would not have even been the best of any specific decade without the Seles stabbing --- but even more so because her career will always be tarnished by stabbing of the undiputed top player and TRUE #1 in women's tennis in the 90's, Monica Seles, by one of her jealous fans :lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:00 PM
In 1952-72 girls and women in non-English-speaking countries simply didn't play tennis.
What do you think how many girls were playing tennis seriously in 1952 or 1972 world-wide - meaning exercising/playing at least 3 hours a day? 100 in 1952? 500 in 1972?

When Graf played in the 80ies/90ies or today there were/are at least 10,000.
The pool of talent was FAAAAAAR smaller in 1952-1972 than in 1986-2004.

It is statistically safe to say that a #10 player in 1960 had far less talent than a #100 player of today. A #10 player from 1952 would not have been able to take a single game from Graf of 1988 or Henin from 2003.

Statistically seen Marlene Weingärtner must have about the same talent as Helen Wills-Moody had back in the 30ies. Face it.
We are, mein freulein friend, comparing apples and oranges, both in terms of the tennis played, and the actual rules of the game. Granted, female athletes are much more prevalent and have had much more opportunity to develop in the past 25 years than ever before in the history of our great sport. However, if you are going to take the #10 player from 1952 and thrust her into 1988 or 2003, you must also take the same #10 player from 1988 or 2003 and give them a standard sized wooden racquet, require her to keep one foot on the ground during the service motion, and after all that, display the mental fortitude, creativity, and shot selection required within those perimeters to actually be able to play the classic game of tennis, with all its chess-like qualities. I would submit that the #10 player from either 1988 and definitely 2003 wouldn't have a clue how to play that game. You would absolutely be amazed (and so would they) when the ball came back after the 4th or 5th strike of the ball- noticeably less so for the 1988 player, but painfully (I can see the blonde Russians crying in my mind's eye) obvious for the knee-jerk reactionary blast ball "game" the #10 player was trained to play today. All things being equal means just that- you cannot compare champions without equalizing the training and opportunity field. It's all fantasy, and quite impossible anywhere else but here, in WTAworld.

I have no doubt that Steffi Graf would have been a great player in any era, and possibly have beaten many, if not most of the great champions of history regardless of the training or rules or structure. With a standard size frame, however, it will have been a much more monumental task for her to put away a Pauline Betz or a Margaret Court or a Chris Evert from the baseline, and those girls wouldn't just be standing there waiting for her to work the point to where she has a winning forehand!

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:00 PM
So you´re saying that Martina N had a peak from ´82- ´90? Is THAT what you´re saying? 9 years in a row at peak level? Come on Cali.....


No.
Navi had slumps in between. Eg. first half of 1987, spring of 1989.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Probably...but we aren´t talking about those...we´re talking about the Courts, BJK´s, Goolagongs of this world.....those top 10 players weren´t winning back then either....but the Courts, BJk´s sure did.

You don´t really think that steffi vs margareth would be a walk in the park for Steffi do you?

p.s.: You keep talking about Henin this and that....Henin wasn´t even the best in 2003..she only became that AFTER Serena went down.


I often watched Helga Masthoff-Nießen play in the early 70ies. She was quite popular in Germany. She definitely would not have won a game against peak Graf. It was almost another sport. Court maybe would have snatched 3 or 4 games away from Graf. Maximum. It's simply not the same league ...

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:10 PM
We are, mein freulein friend, comparing apples and oranges, both in terms of the tennis played, and the actual rules of the game. Granted, female athletes are much more prevalent and have had much more opportunity to develop in the past 25 years than ever before in the history of our great sport. However, if you are going to take the #10 player from 1952 and thrust her into 1988 or 2003, you must also take the same #10 player from 1988 or 2003 and give them a standard sized wooden racquet, require her to keep one foot on the ground during the service motion, and after all that, display the mental fortitude, creativity, and shot selection required within those perimeters to actually be able to play the classic game of tennis, with all its chess-like qualities. I would submit that the #10 player from either 1988 and definitely 2003 wouldn't have a clue how to play that game. You would absolutely be amazed (and so would they) when the ball came back after the 4th or 5th strike of the ball- noticeably less so for the 1988 player, but painfully (I can see the blonde Russians crying in my mind's eye) obvious for the knee-jerk reactionary blast ball "game" the #10 player was trained to play today. All things being equal means just that- you cannot compare champions without equalizing the training and opportunity field. It's all fantasy, and quite impossible anywhere else but here, in WTAworld.

I have no doubt that Steffi Graf would have been a great player in any era, and possibly have beaten many, if not most of the great champions of history regardless of the training or rules or structure. With a standard size frame, however, it will have been a much more monumental task for her to put away a Pauline Betz or a Margaret Court or a Chris Evert from the baseline, and those girls wouldn't just be standing there waiting for her to work the point to where she has a winning forehand!

I don't think the ball would have come back 4 or 5 times even if Graf had played with a standard size wooden racket. Provided she had played with this racket since age 4. Graf simply had more talent than Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court. As I said, the talent pool was FAAAR smaller in 1930 or 1960. And those players didn't train professionally since age 10 as Graf did.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:14 PM
I often watched Helga Masthoff-Nießen play in the early 70ies. She was quite popular in Germany. She definitely would not have won a game against peak Graf. It was almost another sport. Court maybe would have snatched 3 or 4 games away from Graf. Maximum. It's simply not the same league ...


What your thoughts on this one, alfa? Court would win 3 or 4 games maximum against Graf?

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:17 PM
I don't think the ball would have come back 4 or 5 times even if Graf had played with a standard size wooden racket. Provided she had played with this racket since age 4. Graf simply had more talent than Lenglen, Wills, Connolly, Court. As I said, the talent pool was FAAAR smaller in 1930 or 1960. And those players didn't train professionally since age 10 as Graf did.

Come on Cali....be realistic. If those girls had had the same training as Steffi, they´d have become better too....so why should Graf train with the racket when she was 4 to adapt to it and then you dismiss those other girls without giving them the chance to train with the new systems, trainings, etc too?

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:30 PM
What your thoughts on this one, alfa? Court would win 3 or 4 games maximum against Graf?With both players using standard size frames (I don't care what you make them out of- just limit the size of the racquet face and the length of the frame), I think Graf would have a very tough time with Margaret Court. I remember Cliff Drysdale once answering me when I was fortunate enough to ask him about what he remembered about Margaret, and his response was "now there's a girl who would come in off the kitchen sink!"- meaning she was a very good net rusher, and if you've been reading any of the Nancy Richey posts in the BFTP threads, Court had a complete game, and could stay with anyone in the back court as well (1973 French Open victory over Evert on clay). She was 5'9" tall, the same height as Graf, and nearly as fast (was also clocked fast enough to qualify for olympic sprinting early in her career), and had one of the best serves in women's tennis history, plus she was awfully difficult to pass with that reach- much like Venus Williams would be if she ever decided to camp out at the net. She definitely had the game to beat Graf both then, and if she would have had the opportunity to train with the larger graphite composite frames, HER GAME WOULD HAVE BEEN SCARY!:eek:

P.S.- I also had breakfast with Marty Reissen, who happened to win quite a few mixed titles with Margaret, and he unashamedly admitted that "she carried ME!"- and he was a great tennis player.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:31 PM
Would you say Graf had more natural talent than Seles? I definately don't think so, and it was only because of an unforunate incident that she couldn't become the greatest player of all time (and in the process winning most of the slams Graf won in that period)


If Graf could have held her 88/89 level Seles would have won 2 or 3 slams maximum in 90/93.
Graf and Navi had FAAAR more talent than Seles.
I have watched women's tennis regularily from 1980 until now.
Talent-wise my ranking would be

1) Graf
2) Navratilova
3) Evert
4) Henin
5) Hingis
6) Seles
7) Mandlikova
8) Sabatini
9) V. Williams
10) Sanchez

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:34 PM
With both players using standard size frames (I don't care what you make them out of- just limit the size of the racquet face and the length of the frame), I think Graf would have a very tough time with Margaret Court. I remember Cliff Drysdale once answering me when I was fortunate enough to ask him about what he remembered about Margaret, and his response was "now there's a girl who would come in off the kitchen sink!"- meaning she was a very good net rusher, and if you've been reading any of the Nancy Richey posts in the BFTP threads, Court had a complete game, and could stay with anyone in the back court as well (1973 French Open victory over Evert on clay). She was 5'9" tall, the same height as Graf, and nearly as fast (was also clocked fast enough to qualify for olympic sprinting early in her career), and had one of the best serves in women's tennis history, plus she was awfully difficult to pass with that reach- much like Venus Williams would be if she ever decided to camp out at the net. She definitely had the game to beat Graf both then, and if she would have had the opportunity to train with the larger graphite composite frames, HER GAME WOULD HAVE BEEN SCARY!:eek:

P.S.- I also had breakfast with Marty Reissen, who happened to win quite a few mixed titles with Margaret, and he unashamedly admitted that "she carried ME!"- and he was a great tennis player.


So the conclusion is that Cali is just brabbling as usual....he even admited he never saw Margareth play, soooo....

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:36 PM
If Graf could have held her 88/89 level Seles would have won 2 or 3 slams maximum in 90/93.
Graf and Navi had FAAAR more talent than Seles.
I have watched women's tennis regularily from 1980 until now.
Talent-wise my ranking would be

1) Graf
2) Navratilova
3) Evert
4) Henin
5) Hingis
6) Seles
7) Mandlikova
8) Sabatini
9) V. Williams
10) Sanchez


Pretty good list....one thing I find interestings is that Serena who isn´t on your list, has acomplished more than pretty much everybody on the list, save the top three and Seles.....I guess it´s true: talent isn´t everything.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:38 PM
Come on Cali....be realistic. If those girls had had the same training as Steffi, they´d have become better too....so why should Graf train with the racket when she was 4 to adapt to it and then you dismiss those other girls without giving them the chance to train with the new systems, trainings, etc too?


Court could have started to play when 4 years old. She didn't.
But why should Graf have played with wood her whole life?

As I said earlier - we have today maybe a 100 times more players who train professionally than in the 60ies.
If we were to shoot 99 % of them we would still have the same talent as there was in the 60ies. A #500 of today probably has more talent than a #10 from 1964 had. Myskina or Demetieva most probably have more talent than Wills, Connolly or Court.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:40 PM
With both players using standard size frames (I don't care what you make them out of- just limit the size of the racquet face and the length of the frame), I think Graf would have a very tough time with Margaret Court. I remember Cliff Drysdale once answering me when I was fortunate enough to ask him about what he remembered about Margaret, and his response was "now there's a girl who would come in off the kitchen sink!"- meaning she was a very good net rusher, and if you've been reading any of the Nancy Richey posts in the BFTP threads, Court had a complete game, and could stay with anyone in the back court as well (1973 French Open victory over Evert on clay). She was 5'9" tall, the same height as Graf, and nearly as fast (was also clocked fast enough to qualify for olympic sprinting early in her career), and had one of the best serves in women's tennis history, plus she was awfully difficult to pass with that reach- much like Venus Williams would be if she ever decided to camp out at the net. She definitely had the game to beat Graf both then, and if she would have had the opportunity to train with the larger graphite composite frames, HER GAME WOULD HAVE BEEN SCARY!:eek:

P.S.- I also had breakfast with Marty Reissen, who happened to win quite a few mixed titles with Margaret, and he unashamedly admitted that "she carried ME!"- and he was a great tennis player.


Riessen, the guy's name is Riessen ...

I remember Court from her match against Riggs, BTW.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Court could have started to play when 4 years old. She didn't.
But why should Graf have played with wood her whole life?

As I said earlier - we have today maybe a 100 times more players who train professionally than in the 60ies.
If we were to shoot 99 % of them we would still have the same talent as there was in the 60ies. A #500 of today probably has more talent than a #10 from 1964 had. Myskina or Demetieva most probably have more talent than Wills, Connolly or Court.


And you know this.....how? You already said that you didn´t start watching tennis until 1980....so how can you judge if Margareth had talent or not? 24 majors....against opponents like BJK, Evert, ....or are you saying that beat Steffi even ´86 still was untalented?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:49 PM
And you know this.....how? You already said that you didn´t start watching tennis until 1980....so how can you judge if Margareth had talent or not? ...


Mere statistics and stochastics.

In 1970 there were FAAAR less girls who player tennis seriously. You didn't need that much talent to be at the top.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Mere statistics and stochastics.

In 1970 there were FAAAR less girls who player tennis seriously. You didn't need that much talent to be at the top.

But Court did beat some of the same players Graf beat for her majors: Evert among others....so she couldn´t have THAT untalented.

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Riessen, the guy's name is Riessen ...

I remember Court from her match against Riggs, BTW.Thanks for the spelling correction (seriously, I wish more people would take the time to correct spelling- it's important, especially where names are concerned). I hope your memory of Margaret isn't based on that San Diego masacre exhibition, because if it is- you need to check out a few more vintage Margaret Court matches, because that ain't one of them.

By the way, she won the Australian, French, and U.S. Opens that year, and many historians point to 1973 as the strongest field in the history of women's tennis- Court, King, Evert, Goolagong, Wade, Casals, Navratilova, Melville, and Richey (among quite a few other "second tier" greats, to borrow a cali term)were all playing, playing well, and healthy that year. Neither Graf nor Navratilova nor any of the others listed above have dominated in a year with such a strong field.

alfajeffster
Dec 8th, 2004, 09:00 PM
But Court did beat some of the same players Graf beat for her majors: Evert among others....so she couldn´t have THAT untalented.
She also beat a very young Navratilova by the way- more than once, and also lost to her more than once, but still had very nice things to say about her game (this after a 75 Aussie Open QF loss). Many players could learn a few things from how Margaret Smith Court handled herself both after wins and losses.

KV
Dec 8th, 2004, 09:06 PM
If Graf could have held her 88/89 level Seles would have won 2 or 3 slams maximum in 90/93.
Graf and Navi had FAAAR more talent than Seles.
I have watched women's tennis regularily from 1980 until now.
Talent-wise my ranking would be

1) Graf
2) Navratilova
3) Evert
4) Henin
5) Hingis
6) Seles
7) Mandlikova
8) Sabatini
9) V. Williams
10) SanchezSurprise surprise, by talentwise you mean nothing to do with GS wins? Steffi's shots were of course Da Forehand, serve & footwork. She didn't come often at the net so you could rule out that she's a great volleyer. Her backhand wasn't that great either. No, Steffi had a pretty one dimensional game, unlike Mandlikova who produced all the shots in tennis. If you put Steffi first because of achievements I'd rather understand. Talentwise slamless players like Mecir/Leconte had certainly more variety and talentwise certainly the edge over S. Graf.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Thanks for the spelling correction (seriously, I wish more people would take the time to correct spelling- it's important, especially where names are concerned). I hope your memory of Margaret isn't based on that San Diego masacre exhibition, because if it is- you need to check out a few more vintage Margaret Court matches, because that ain't one of them.

By the way, she won the Australian, French, and U.S. Opens that year, and many historians point to 1973 as the strongest field in the history of women's tennis- Court, King, Evert, Goolagong, Wade, Casals, Navratilova, Melville, and Richey (among quite a few other "second tier" greats, to borrow a cali term)were all playing, playing well, and healthy that year. Neither Graf nor Navratilova nor any of the others listed above have dominated in a year with such a strong field.

Well, well....what did we know.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the spelling correction (seriously, I wish more people would take the time to correct spelling- it's important, especially where names are concerned). I hope your memory of Margaret isn't based on that San Diego masacre exhibition, because if it is- you need to check out a few more vintage Margaret Court matches, because that ain't one of them.

By the way, she won the Australian, French, and U.S. Opens that year, and many historians point to 1973 as the strongest field in the history of women's tennis- Court, King, Evert, Goolagong, Wade, Casals, Navratilova, Melville, and Richey (among quite a few other "second tier" greats, to borrow a cali term)were all playing, playing well, and healthy that year. Neither Graf nor Navratilova nor any of the others listed above have dominated in a year with such a strong field.


Yes, Navi was a real juggernaut back in 1973.
And how many slams Chrissie had won already!
Wade, Casals, Gunter, Melville - you forgot good old Helga Masthoff-Niessen (better that year than Supernavi ... ) - the 5 dwarfs.
Marge Court and BJK - already 30/31 - being the best in the rankings (Tingay - not WTA).

Wow, Steffi, Gaby, Arantxa, Jana, Monica really dodged some bullets there ....

:lol:


Alfa - that was country club socialite tennis.
And no professional sport.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:42 PM
She also beat a very young Navratilova by the way- more than once, and also lost to her more than once, but still had very nice things to say about her game (this after a 75 Aussie Open QF loss). Many players could learn a few things from how Margaret Smith Court handled herself both after wins and losses.


We all remember fondly what Marge said about Navi in later years ...

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:50 PM
Surprise surprise, by talentwise you mean nothing to do with GS wins? Steffi's shots were of course Da Forehand, serve & footwork. She didn't come often at the net so you could rule out that she's a great volleyer. Her backhand wasn't that great either. No, Steffi had a pretty one dimensional game, unlike Mandlikova who produced all the shots in tennis. If you put Steffi first because of achievements I'd rather understand. Talentwise slamless players like Mecir/Leconte had certainly more variety and talentwise certainly the edge over S. Graf.


We are talking girls here.
Graf didn't come to the net because she was the best base-liner ever. With the most accurate and ferocious groundstrokes. If we had forced Graf to play serve&volley and Navi to stay at the baseline Graf would have won.
Mandlikova had to "produce all the shots" because she had no real weapons. Same with Hingis.

Do you really think Graf's footwork, forehand and serve had nothing to do with "talent"? A person who is able to move like that on a tennis court must have been kissed by God ...
:worship: :worship: :worship:

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:01 PM
so Cali..let us get this straight: If Steffi Graf had won 22 majors in the ´70-ies, is it right to say that you´d have used the same tune you´re using now? That it was country club tennis level?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:04 PM
so Cali..let us get this straight: If Steffi Graf had won 22 majors in the ´70-ies, is it right to say that you´d have used the same tune you´re using now? That it was country club tennis level?


Graf would have won 41 slams in the 70ies. With many 6-0 sets ....

:wavey:

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Cali so you mean Steffi beating ASV, Gabby, MJF, even Hingis was a more difficult thing to do than Court beating a BJK, Goolagong, Evert for her majors? Hmmmm..thought ASV, Gabby, MJF, Hingis, even Seles were second-tier greats, so isn´t Steffi SUPPOSED to beat them?

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:09 PM
Graf would have won 41 slams in the 70ies. With many 6-0 sets ....

:wavey:


Doubtful.....you said it yourself...people back then weren´t training as often and didn´t do much on fitness...plus she´d have to go through Court, BJK, Goolagong....you might think low of them, but Graf´d have her hands full with them.

LDV said it himself: Steffi was vulnerable to s & volleyers......plenty of s & v-ers for her to slay.

Andy T
Dec 9th, 2004, 07:05 AM
Calimero, I really hope that one day you will get the opportunity to see matches involving King, Court, Goolagong and Bueno in their heyday. I've not seen that many but in those I have seen, the technical skills of these four women are obviously in the top-drawer category all time. In other words, they hit volleys, passes (off both wings), drop shots, lobs, etc which would be considered sublime shots in any era and they show court coverage and tactical skills equal to those at the top of your post-1980 list.

I feel sad for you because your posts reveal no love of the game of tennis, no appreciation of great points or beautiful shots and no celebation of gifted players bar one. In your single-minded and (in my opinion) utterly futile "mission" to write about, promote and defend one person to the detriment of all others, you denigrate the game of tennis itself. At least, I suppose, in choosing to focus this compulsion on a tennis player rather than a set of religious or political beliefs, it becomes a totally inane obsession.

Great Seles
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:46 AM
FACTS:

All-time leading singles title holder at Wimbledon in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with nine (9).

All-time leading singles title holder at the WTA Tour Championships in women's singles is MARTINA NAVRATILOVA with eight (8).

Navratilova is the only woman who has the all-time record for most singles titles won at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

The others?

Evert at the French Open.
Mallory at the U.S. Open.
Court at the Australian Open.

Steffi Graf does not have the all-time record for most singles titles at any of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Just the facts, ma'am. :lol:


It would be interesting to see how far down the line you would have to go to find an event where Graf has the all-time record -- maybe the Lipton Championships that were started about 20 years ago when Evert and Navratilova were already through a good part of their careers.

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:48 AM
It would be interesting to see how far down the line you would have to go to find an event where Graf has the all-time record -- maybe the Lipton Championships that were started about 20 years ago when Evert and Navratilova were already through a good part of their careers.

Graf did win the German Open about 10 times. :lol:


Graf does not hold the record for ANY of the Grand Slam events in women's tennis. Court, Evert, Navratilova and Mallory have the all-time records at the 4 Grand Slam events.

There are other players --- including Bertha Townsend, Sarah Palfrey Cooke, Mabel Cahill, Mary Brown, Juliette Atkinson, Pauline Betz, Maud Watson, May Sutton, Dorothy Round, Maria Bueno, Louise Brough, Charlotte Cooper Sterry, Lottie Dod, Blanche Bingley Hillyard, Dorothea Douglass Chambers, Lesley Turner, Margaret Scriven, Simone Mathieu, Ann Haydon Jones, Doris Hart, Margaret Osborne duPont, Hilde Sperling, Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, Mary Carter Reitano, Mall Molesworth, Hana Mandlikova, Thelma Long, Carol Buttsworth, Martina Hingis, Jean Hartigan, Evonne Goolagong, Daphne Ackhurst, Nancy Wynne Bolton and Steffi Graf ----- who are due an "honorable mention" for having won these events more than once --- but second place is just the biggest loser and the ones who actually DESERVE to be on top are the ones who actually are on top -- Margaret Court, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova and Molla Mallory ... so there may be some great champion in the future who can come and take the place of Court, Evert, Navratilova or Mallory at the very, very top of the history of these great events with more singles titles than these great champions --- but until then, the ones on top are the ones who shine the brightest at the biggest events in women's tennis. :lol:

Lemonskin.
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:59 AM
these threads are so funny... geez, all great players... you cant compare who is the ultimate best ever as they played in different era's.

tennislover
Dec 9th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Sounds like Adolf on April 29th, 1945 .....


OMG nnnnaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :lol:
greatest is a winning general

tennislover
Dec 9th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Steffi of course won the German polls.. :lol: .I just wonder how many times Gunther Parche and Calimero voted....24/7 :lol:

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

It would also help them to have no knowledge of Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova.

Take away Monica Seles, Gunther Parche, Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova ... completely wipe them away as if they never existed ... then, Steffi Graf would get my vote as the #1 women's tennis player of all time.

Of course, the problem with this is the fact that Seles, Parche, Wills Moody, Evert and Navratilova existed. :lol:

The truth is the truth!!!!!
Bravo, Gen. Greatest!
I'd add suzanne lenglen to that list...

alfajeffster
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:09 PM
We all remember fondly what Marge said about Navi in later years ...
I challenge you to find one untoward remark Margaret Smith Court ever made about Martina Navratilova's tennis game. I have (with few exceptions) always tried to center and maintain my focus in any given post regarding tennis on the game itself. Tennis does transcend any one player who has ever been fortunate enough to play the game. I have always admired Margaret Smith Court for the tennis she played (we're talking about a natural lefty forced to learn the game playing right-handed), but I certainly don't admire or espouse her religious beliefs, nor do I pretend that I even know her personally, although I did meet her once in 2003 after the Williams/Williams final at the Australian Open. What she has said and done outside of tennis does not color my perception of what she achieved and gave to the sport itself, any more than what Steffi Graf is doing with her life now colors my perception of what she accomplished on the tennis court. Once you start reading or viewing coverage of what a player believes, does or says outside the perimeters of the tennis court, you may as well be reading a gossip rag at the checkout line in the supermarket. The game is bigger than them both, and it's really more fun to dissect the vintage footage of them in action on the court and what they did with a tennis ball than it is to bring their personal lives before the chopping block. I have hopes for you, calimero, because you do respect and seem to enjoy aspects of Steffi Graf's abilities with a tennis ball. The game did not begin with Steffi Graf, nor did it end when her career ended, and no one person has ever played the perfect match. When that happens, I will die.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Cali so you mean Steffi beating ASV, Gabby, MJF, even Hingis was a more difficult thing to do than Court beating a BJK, Goolagong, Evert for her majors? Hmmmm..thought ASV, Gabby, MJF, Hingis, even Seles were second-tier greats, so isn´t Steffi SUPPOSED to beat them?


Graf beat Navi, a first-tier great 4 times in slam finals. And Evert, another first-tier great once.
Graf had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (Sanchez - 5 times, Seles - 3 times, Hingis - once).

The only first-tier opponent Court beat in a slam final was Evert at FO 73. But Evert hadn't even won a slam until then. Court had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (King - 4 times, Goolagong & Bueno - 3 times).

alfajeffster
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Graf beat Navi, a first-tier great 4 times in slam finals. And Evert, another first-tier great once.
Graf had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (Sanchez - 5 times, Seles - 3 times, Hingis - once).

The only first-tier opponent Court beat in a slam final was Evert at FO 73. But Evert hadn't even won a slam until then. Court had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (King - 4 times, Goolagong & Bueno - 3 times).
You're talking out of your ass again, cali... SIT UP STRAIGHT AND RESPECT TENNIS HISTORY!:fiery:

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Graf beat Navi, a first-tier great 4 times in slam finals. And Evert, another first-tier great once.
Graf had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (Sanchez - 5 times, Seles - 3 times, Hingis - once).

The only first-tier opponent Court beat in a slam final was Evert at FO 73. But Evert hadn't even won a slam until then. Court had a lot of wins against second-tier greats (King - 4 times, Goolagong & Bueno - 3 times).

King´s second-tier? To my knowledge she has more than 10 majors, 12 to be exact with 6 wimbledons.....so,so....are we contradicting ourselves here? Because you always stress on the importance of Wimbledon.....6 wimbledons, one less than Steffi....hmm,...

Aha...so Steffi should be thankful that Martina N kept playing on so long.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:10 PM
King´s second-tier? To my knowledge she has more than 10 majors, 12 to be exact with 6 wimbledons.....so,so....are we contradicting ourselves here? Because you always stress on the importance of Wimbledon.....6 wimbledons, one less than Steffi....hmm,...

Aha...so Steffi should be thankful that Martina N kept playing on so long.

Navi had won only 15 slams before her 30th birthday.
Graf had 22 already by then. If injuries hadn't ended her career in 96/99 she would have won about 27 slams and all discussions would have ended long ago ...

KV
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Cali, as far as I'm concerned H. Mandlikova had a very good first serve, volley (quoted 10/10 by an expert) and return. She hit as well many winners from the baseline. As well very good passing shots. She troubled Navratilova at her peak even on a fast court. Yeah, they regularly played 3 sets. Mandlikova's good at all the shots in the game
IMO, talentwise's more to do with being good at all the shots and producing them on and on again. Though I admit S. Graf didn't need to play serve & volley.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:14 PM
You're talking out of your ass again, cali... SIT UP STRAIGHT AND RESPECT TENNIS HISTORY!:fiery:


Alfa....the guy has NEVER heard of the word respect. The call Selestials bad, but a person who doesn´t respect ANYBODY but Steffi can´t be good either.

Court is socialite country-club level player?

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Navi had won only 15 slams before her 30th birthday.
Graf had 22 already by then. If injuries hadn't ended her career in 96/99 she would have won about 27 slams and all discussions would have ended long ago ...

Are we playing the woulda coulda game? Imagine what Margaret Court would have won if she hadn´t have to leave the tour to give birth TWICE. Even then she still won 24....I think without those two interumptions, girl would have won like 30 and then ALL discussions wouldn´t even have begun!!

KV
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Alfa....the guy has NEVER heard of the word respect. The call Selestials bad, but a person who doesn´t respect ANYBODY but Steffi can´t be good either.

Court is socialite country-club level player?As far as I'm concerned M. Court played BJK & C. Evert that's more oppositon than S. Graf had with ASV, Conchita Martinez etc. We all know what happened to M. Seles. Unfortunately we'll never find out how many more GS's M. Seles would have won. Pretty sure if M. Court had play M. Navratilova/C. Evert/H. Mandlikova/S. Graf she'd be an even better player.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:27 PM
Cali, as far as I'm concerned H. Mandlikova had a very good first serve, volley (quoted 10/10 by an expert) and return. She hit as well many winners from the baseline. As well very good passing shots. She troubled Navratilova at her peak even on a fast court. Yeah, they regularly played 3 sets. Mandlikova's good at all the shots in the game
IMO, talentwise's more to do with being good at all the shots and producing them on and on again. Though I admit S. Graf didn't need to play serve & volley.


A player who has won all 4 slams - on 4 different surfaces - at least 4 times each doesn't need Mandlikova type players as role models for diversity, sonny ....

:lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Alfa....the guy has NEVER heard of the word respect. The call Selestials bad, but a person who doesn´t respect ANYBODY but Steffi can´t be good either.

Court is socialite country-club level player?


Helga Masthoff-Niessen was. And she was #8 in 1970 ...

alfajeffster
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:30 PM
I lasted longer than most people my age... off to work on my forehand *POOF*

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Are we playing the woulda coulda game? Imagine what Margaret Court would have won if she hadn´t have to leave the tour to give birth TWICE. Even then she still won 24....I think without those two interumptions, girl would have won like 30 and then ALL discussions wouldn´t even have begun!!

It was her choice, wasn't it ... ?

Courts opponents were laughable. Country-club socialites. I remember watching on TV when Court was waxed by an 55-old guy!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Helga Masthoff-Niessen was. And she was #8 in 1970 ...

That´s it? So there were still 7 players better than her...

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:37 PM
It was her choice, wasn't it ... ?

Courts opponents were laughable. Country-club socialites. I remember watching on TV when Court was waxed by an 55-old guy!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Same as it was steffi´s choice to retire in ´99....

Pretty weak Cali....Steffi´d lose to a male too at the age she is now...no, I´m sure she´d lose always to a male, regardless of age.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:38 PM
It was her choice, wasn't it ... ?

Courts opponents were laughable. Country-club socialites. I remember watching on TV when Court was waxed by an 55-old guy!
:lol: :lol: :lol:


so you say you never saw a peak Court, but you choose to watch this one match? Sad, sad...

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Same as it was steffi´s choice to retire in ´99....

Pretty weak Cali....Steffi´d lose to a male too at the age she is now...no, I´m sure she´d lose always to a male, regardless of age.


:lol:
No, I don't see how Graf during her professional career would have been able to lose against a 55-year-old guy!
Hey, she would chase every male oldtimer around the court even today!

Women's tennis was so weak around 1970 that they didn't even have real professional players back then!

Philbo
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:50 PM
I lasted longer than most people my age... off to work on my forehand *POOF*
:lol: :lol: :tape:

I hear you Alfa! Its better to just move on!

bandy - I dont know how you continue to converse with this idiot..:)

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:07 PM
:lol:
No, I don't see how Graf during her professional career would have been able to lose against a 55-year-old guy!
Hey, she would chase every male oldtimer around the court even today!

Women's tennis was so weak around 1970 that they didn't even have real professional players back then!


:haha: :rolls: You really think that Steffi Graf would win even a single game against anybody on the senior tour? Johnny Mac, Muster, et al?

why don´t you arrange it.....easy.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:11 PM
:lol: :lol: :tape:

I hear you Alfa! Its better to just move on!

bandy - I dont know how you continue to converse with this idiot..:)

OK, alfa is not the brightest bulb - but THAT is a little bit harsh towards him!
:eek:

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:20 PM
:haha: :rolls: You really think that Steffi Graf would win even a single game against anybody on the senior tour? Johnny Mac, Muster, et al?

why don´t you arrange it.....easy.


Wow!
McEnroe and Muster are already 55 years old ... ?
Maybe in Bandyworld?

In the real world Mac is 45 and Thomas 37.

And no, I don't think a 27-year-old Graf would lose even to a 45-year-old McEnroe ...
:lol: :lol:

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Wow!
McEnroe and Muster are already 55 years old ... ?
Maybe in Bandyworld?

In the real world Mac is 45 and Thomas 37.

And no, I don't think a 27-year-old Graf would lose even to a 45-year-old McEnroe ...
:lol: :lol:


Not surprising.....as you don´t believe she CAN lose, period.

Maybe if she ever shows some guts we will find out....

Philbo
Dec 9th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Wow!
McEnroe and Muster are already 55 years old ... ?
Maybe in Bandyworld?

In the real world Mac is 45 and Thomas 37.

And no, I don't think a 27-year-old Graf would lose even to a 45-year-old McEnroe ...
:lol: :lol:
Oh Calimero - you really are an absolute parody. Just a complete joke. I pity you, having to live with a mindset of such fear and paranoia around your fave being the best ever.

How does it feel being so insecure that any talk of anyone else being mentioned as a candidate is enough to freak you out?

Its only taken you a few months of posting here for the rest of the board to regard you as a joke, all bar the extreme Grafanatics..

Great Graf fans such as Irma, Alfa, G-Ha etc are a pleasure to have on this messageboard. You are good to have here just for a laugh..

You've even alienated potential allies (Alfa) with your blind loyalty a la Gunther Parche.. Alfa is a big Graf fan who probably rates her above Martina and definitely above Seles, but even he is telling you to wake up to yourself by the way you dismiss the careers of legends of the game that came before Graf. As I said before, you just dig your own hole deeper and deeper to the point you are at now where you arent even taken seriously...

Keep on dreaming and living in your fantasy la-la land of make believe you insignificant, pathetic little fool.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Yeah cali...how does that feel? When even the most stern Grafites find it hard to follow your logic and to agree with you most of the time?

faboozadoo15
Dec 9th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Navi had won only 15 slams before her 30th birthday.
Graf had 22 already by then. If injuries hadn't ended her career in 96/99 she would have won about 27 slams and all discussions would have ended long ago ...
if chris evert would have been stabbed at 19, martina navratilova could have 30 slams.
if gunther hadn't gone crazy, steffi might only have 15 slams.

injuries are a part of the game. stabbings aren't. it's really that simple.

faboozadoo15
Dec 9th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Cali, as far as I'm concerned H. Mandlikova had a very good first serve, volley (quoted 10/10 by an expert) and return. She hit as well many winners from the baseline. As well very good passing shots. She troubled Navratilova at her peak even on a fast court. Yeah, they regularly played 3 sets. Mandlikova's good at all the shots in the game

:worship: mandikova is the best player ever that doesn't have a moment in time that you can point to and say "ahhh, THAT was her year!" i love watching her play whenever they show classic matches!

bandabou
Dec 10th, 2004, 12:14 AM
if chris evert would have been stabbed at 19, martina navratilova could have 30 slams.
if gunther hadn't gone crazy, steffi might only have 15 slams.

injuries are a part of the game. stabbings aren't. it's really that simple.

bingo....THAT´s the thing that Cali can´t seem to grasp.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 12:33 AM
i also want to ask cali what the difference was in steffi's slump status in between the aus open 93 and the french open 93. she went from being second best to winning four straight slams! she must have crawled right out of that slump just in time for the beef of the clay season! man, props to steffi, she really overcame an obstacle and defeated an internal demon there. she really just moved on and got over it just in time.




:rolleyes:

Philbo
Dec 10th, 2004, 12:50 AM
i also want to ask cali what the difference was in steffi's slump status in between the aus open 93 and the french open 93. she went from being second best to winning four straight slams! she must have crawled right out of that slump just in time for the beef of the clay season! man, props to steffi, she really overcame an obstacle and defeated an internal demon there. she really just moved on and got over it just in time.




:rolleyes:
Brilliant!! LOL..

Amazing that the end of that slump just happened to co-incide with the stabbing. Steffi was still in the slump at Oz 93, but had recovered by the French!!

You are just fucking hilarious Cali!!

bandabou
Dec 10th, 2004, 12:50 AM
i also want to ask cali what the difference was in steffi's slump status in between the aus open 93 and the french open 93. she went from being second best to winning four straight slams! she must have crawled right out of that slump just in time for the beef of the clay season! man, props to steffi, she really overcame an obstacle and defeated an internal demon there. she really just moved on and got over it just in time.




:rolleyes:


THAT enigma again has never been answered....

I´ll try for Cali: Steffi Graf was the second best player at the time, so OF COURSE she profited.....;)

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:56 AM
if chris evert would have been stabbed at 19, martina navratilova could have 30 slams.
if gunther hadn't gone crazy, steffi might only have 15 slams.

injuries are a part of the game. stabbings aren't. it's really that simple.


If Chris Evert had been stabbed at 19 (in 1974) she would have returned after 3 months. If she were a fragile flower she would have returned after 2.25 years (in 1976).

Navi won her first slam in 1978, Dumbo .....

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Yeah cali...how does that feel? When even the most stern Grafites find it hard to follow your logic and to agree with you most of the time?


I wouldn't call Chokerfan one of "the most stern Grafites", Bandydumbo ...

:lol:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:00 AM
bingo....THAT´s the thing that Cali can´t seem to grasp.


Stabbings are part of the game. As are horse riding accidents, car crashs, tax scandals, family deaths, poisoned marmalade attacks, blackmail scandals.

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:06 AM
i also want to ask cali what the difference was in steffi's slump status in between the aus open 93 and the french open 93. she went from being second best to winning four straight slams! she must have crawled right out of that slump just in time for the beef of the clay season! man, props to steffi, she really overcame an obstacle and defeated an internal demon there. she really just moved on and got over it just in time.
:rolleyes:


Graf had made the AO finals for the first time in 3 years in 1993.
She had narrowed the ranking point gap against Seles from 58 to 21.
She later made the USO and YEC finals in 1993 for the first time since 3 and 4 years respectively.

So obviously Graf was better in 1993 than in 1992 and far better than in 1991. Although Graf waxed Seles in Wimbledon 92 already and lost only with 8-10 in 3rd at FO.

Graf would have overtaken Seles anyway. The Stabbing made this happen 2 or 3 months earlier. So what?

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:11 AM
Brilliant!! LOL..

Amazing that the end of that slump just happened to co-incide with the stabbing. Steffi was still in the slump at Oz 93, but had recovered by the French!!

You are just fucking hilarious Cali!!



Steffi was almost out of her slump at AO 93. She had made the AO final for the first time in 3 years. As she would make the USO final later for the first time in 3 years. And the YEC final for the first time in 4 years. Seles had nothing to do with this. Nor did The Stabbing.
In 1992 Graf wasn't able to reach AO, USO, YEC finals.
In 1993 she was.
So she was better in 1993 obviously.
Nevertheless she was able to trounce Seles at Wimbledon 1992 and to put up a tough fight at FO 92 (losing only 8-10 in 3rd set).

Graf would have been #1 in summer of 1993 anyway.

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:13 AM
THAT enigma again has never been answered....

I´ll try for Cali: Steffi Graf was the second best player at the time, so OF COURSE she profited.....;)


You think Graf made the USO and YEC finals in 1993 for the first time in 3 and 4 years because of The Stabbing?
Interesting theory.
Please elaborate .....

Until then I just maintain that Graf was considerably better in 1993 than in 1992. And in 1992 Graf was able to thrash Seles at Wimbledon and to give her a tough fight at FO ....

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:06 PM
If Chris Evert had been stabbed at 19 (in 1974) she would have returned after 3 months. If she were a fragile flower she would have returned after 2.25 years (in 1976).

Navi won her first slam in 1978, Dumbo .....
i really don't think a woman in that age would have returned to competitive tennis if she had been stabbed on the court. tennis is such a lonely sport and travelling around the world after someone who stabbed you is still on the loose... im not so sure evert would have come back at all.

if martina never had chirs to contend with, or the steely chris we all know, she would have won a lot more...

just like steffi :wavey:

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Stabbings are part of the game. As are horse riding accidents, car crashs, tax scandals, family deaths, poisoned marmalade attacks, blackmail scandals.
none of those other things are fascilitated BECAUSE you are a tennis player. monica was stabbed because she was #1, plain and simple. you don't fall off a horse because you are number one. your daddy doesn't fuck strippers and steal because you are number one, family members don't die because you are number one....

need i go on?

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Graf would have overtaken Seles anyway. The Stabbing made this happen 2 or 3 months earlier. So what?
this about sums you up...
what a callous thing to say.
i hope we're all done with you.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:12 PM
You think Graf made the USO and YEC finals in 1993 for the first time in 3 and 4 years because of The Stabbing?
Interesting theory.
Please elaborate .....

Until then I just maintain that Graf was considerably better in 1993 than in 1992.
monica had just beaten steffi in their last match in 1993. rather easily. she only dropped 5 games in the last 2 sets. steffi was lucky to profit from errors seles made in the first set. watch that third set again... monica was winning points any way she wanted to. she won all the longest rallies by mesmerizing steffi into oblivion and she could also win qucik points that steffi counted on against monica. monica also out aced her.

so we can say monica was better in 93 than in 92 too ;)

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:14 PM
You think Graf made the USO and YEC finals in 1993 for the first time in 3 and 4 years because of The Stabbing?
Interesting theory.
Please elaborate .....

Until then I just maintain that Graf was considerably better in 1993 than in 1992. And in 1992 Graf was able to thrash Seles at Wimbledon and to give her a tough fight at FO ....
it's simple. when you know someone's a little bit better than you, you don't want to play them. that affects your performance before the finals in a tournament. when you know that theat person is gone, there are less worries, and that is how graf coasted to 4 straight grand slams after monica was stabbed.

R&J
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:17 PM
this about sums you up...
what a callous thing to say.
i hope we're all done with you.
(Speaking of course about Calimero377)

I just love this ignore feature ;) I dont use it that often, but for some people its just not worth having to listen to their constant bad mouthing.

bandabou
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Stabbings are part of the game. As are horse riding accidents, car crashs, tax scandals, family deaths, poisoned marmalade attacks, blackmail scandals.

Stabbings are part of the game? O.k., cali....this just confirms it: you´re really really....but I guess you aren´t alone. Heck, german justice thought so too...

One thing I´m still wondering: What´d the veridict have been if it was STEFFI who had gotten stabbed at Hamburg? would gunther still have walked away free?

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:21 PM
I just love this ignore feature ;)
:haha: i bet.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:25 PM
Stabbings are part of the game? O.k., cali....this just confirms it: you´re really really....but I guess you aren´t alone. Heck, german justice thought so too...

One thing I´m still wondering: What´d the veridict have been if it was STEFFI who had gotten stabbed at Hamburg? would gunther still have walked away free?
well one thing is for sure... if a deranged fan, at say, the us open, stabbed the #1 player in the world, they'd have hell to pay. 2 year probation is a joke.

bandabou
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:32 PM
And would the tournament have continued if their beloved Steffi Graf was the one who had been stabbed at the venue?

Questions, questions....

Andy T
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:35 PM
One of Caligünther's big "arguments" is that Monica could have come back in the summer of 93 if she'd wanted to but whenever actually addresses the fact that the failure to put Parche behind bars (and as a consequence the failure to eliminate the possibility that he may do it - or worse - again) may have increased the psychological trauma caused by the stabbing itself. Ever since that day Monica has had to live with the knowledge that if she were ever to be #1 in the world again, a man was out there wanting to stick a knife in her.

tennislover
Dec 10th, 2004, 05:50 PM
One of Caligünther's big "arguments" is that Monica could have come back in the summer of 93 if she'd wanted to but whenever actually addresses the fact that the failure to put Parche behind bars (and as a consequence the failure to eliminate the possibility that he may do it - or worse - again) may have increased the psychological trauma caused by the stabbing itself. Ever since that day Monica has had to live with the knowledge that if she were ever to be #1 in the world again, a man was out there wanting to stick a knife in her.

Caligunther????? :lol: That :lol: is :lol: not :lol: correct :lol: from :lol: you, :lol: Andy

(Cali, I disagree with him)

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:00 PM
none of those other things are fascilitated BECAUSE you are a tennis player. monica was stabbed because she was #1, plain and simple. you don't fall off a horse because you are number one. your daddy doesn't fuck strippers and steal because you are number one, family members don't die because you are number one....

need i go on?


To produce a big tax scandal as a young girl is being helped considerably by being a tennis pro.
To be hunted by the media too.

I just don't get your point.
A 1-cm stab is a 1-cm stab. It was dangerous, it could have been lethal. But is was over within seconds, the would had healed after 2 months. Seles chose not to play fore more than 2 years.

"Trauma"? Maybe.

"Monica's going to milk this sucker dry. Tennis is just a stepping-stone. Her real goal is being a star." (Mary Carillo, on the Seles stabbing, August 1993)?
Maybe.
Strategy for winning the suit against the tournament organizers? Maybe.

A little bit afraid of transcendent Graf in 93/94 (Remember: Seles returned exactly at the moment when the Graf tax scandal broke in 95 and Pa Graf went into the slammer)? Maybe.

To lazy to exercise and hot to eat lots of BigMacs? Maybe.

We will never know.


And no, Graf would not have been presented with a poisoned jar of marmalade if she had been only a secretary or a nurse, Faboozadumbo ....

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:03 PM
this about sums you up...
what a callous thing to say.
i hope we're all done with you.


I didn't say "So what" to The Stabbing itsself - and you know that.
I say it about the discussion that Graf ONLY became #1 again because of The Stabbing. Hey, even with her dad in prison and her health deteriorting she fought back Seles in 95/96!
:worship:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:08 PM
monica had just beaten steffi in their last match in 1993. rather easily. she only dropped 5 games in the last 2 sets. steffi was lucky to profit from errors seles made in the first set. watch that third set again... monica was winning points any way she wanted to. she won all the longest rallies by mesmerizing steffi into oblivion and she could also win qucik points that steffi counted on against monica. monica also out aced her.

so we can say monica was better in 93 than in 92 too ;)


Seles made 86-78 points in that match.
She lead Graf with 4-2 in 3rd set but faced break-point. She then aced Graf and went on to win the next 6 points. At the moment of this break-point - 4 minutes before the end of the match Seles had won 79 and Graf 78 points.

Even Graf's last win against Seles (FO 99 semis) was not so close (Graf made 99-89 points).

BTW, Graf had a pulled stomach muscle which hurt her considerably after one hour of play in the 93 AO final. It is almost visible on the tape ...

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:10 PM
it's simple. when you know someone's a little bit better than you, you don't want to play them. that affects your performance before the finals in a tournament. when you know that theat person is gone, there are less worries, and that is how graf coasted to 4 straight grand slams after monica was stabbed.


When Seles was #1 in 91/93 Graf won THREE of five matches against Seles, Faboozadumbo ....

:lol:

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:11 PM
One of Caligünther's big "arguments" is that Monica could have come back in the summer of 93 if she'd wanted to but whenever actually addresses the fact that the failure to put Parche behind bars (and as a consequence the failure to eliminate the possibility that he may do it - or worse - again) may have increased the psychological trauma caused by the stabbing itself. Ever since that day Monica has had to live with the knowledge that if she were ever to be #1 in the world again, a man was out there wanting to stick a knife in her.
cali doesn't understand this.

tennislover
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:11 PM
poor Cali,
you just defend your idol and some people call you "idiot", "caligunther" ect....
world is unfair, mate ;)

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Seles made 86-78 points in that match.
She lead Graf with 4-2 in 3rd set but faced break-point. She then aced Graf and went on to win the next 6 points. At the moment of this break-point - 4 minutes before the end of the match Seles had won 79 and Graf 78 points.

Even Graf's last win against Seles (FO 99 semis) was not so close (Graf made 99-89 points).

BTW, Graf had a pulled stomach muscle which hurt her considerably after one hour of play in the 93 AO final. It is almost visible on the tape ...
all that demonstrates is that monica is mentally tougher.
and stomach pull= bullshit.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:13 PM
When Seles was #1 in 91/93 Graf won THREE of five matches against Seles, Faboozadumbo ....

:lol:
3 of 5... my my, that's overwhelming!
monica won 7/8 grand slams she played... where was steffi in a lot of those finals?

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:14 PM
also, syeffi may have had a tax scandal with her father and all, but monica also had a lot of promblems being from yugoslavia at that time... or do we just want to ignore that? maybe monica wasn't even playing her best then.

tennislover
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:15 PM
obviously pre/stabbing Seles was stronger than Graf

javo29
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:22 PM
Well I would say Navratilova was great...

and Graf was a better player for me so Graf was GREATER than Navratilova

but then...

a young girl from Yugoslavia played like NO ONE ELSE before and dominated Steffi...

Steffi was great but the fact that it was so dominated by Monica Seles just add and extra dimension to SELES, therefore,

NAVRATILOVA IS GREAT, GRAF IS GREATER BUT....


MONICA SELES IS THE GREATEST

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:23 PM
Stabbings are part of the game? O.k., cali....this just confirms it: you´re really really....but I guess you aren´t alone. Heck, german justice thought so too...

One thing I´m still wondering: What´d the veridict have been if it was STEFFI who had gotten stabbed at Hamburg? would gunther still have walked away free?

Yes. I have spoken to many, many lawyers and jugdes about the Seles case.
Most of them thought that the Parche verdict was just (2-year prison sentence on probation) - meaning in compliance with German law. Some - only some - thought Parche should have gotten a harsher treatment than usual beer hall stabbers to deter stalkers and celebrity attacks, but admitted that the verdict was justifiable.
And I always asked the same question as you: Would a Steffi attacker have been treated differently?
The UNANIMOUS answer was: No. Some even said: "Hell, no! Son, have a look at the verdicts in stabbing cases here in Germany."

tennislover
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Yes. I have spoken to many, many lawyers and jugdes about the Seles case.
Most of them thought that the Parche verdict was just (2-year prison sentence on probation) - meaning in compliance with German law. Some - only some - thought Parche should have gotten a harsher treatment than usual beer hall stabbers to deter stalkers and celebrity attacks, but admitted that the verdict was justifiable.
And I always asked the same question as you: Would a Steffi attacker have been treated differently?
The UNANIMOUS answer was: No. Some even said: "Hell, no! Son, have a look at the verdicts in stabbing cases here in Germany."


The same happens in Italy, if there is evidence of mental disturb, the verdict is milder........

but Gunther was insane or just drunk???

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:30 PM
well one thing is for sure... if a deranged fan, at say, the us open, stabbed the #1 player in the world, they'd have hell to pay. 2 year probation is a joke.


I read an article in a U.S. law review magazine in 1995.
The author concluded that most probably the verdict would have been roughly the same in the U.S. as it was in Germany. Maybe 6 months without probation, he said.
In Germany almost all prison terms until 12 months and most until 24 months are handed out with probation.

Understand me, I don't want to defend this Parche lunatic. But the verdict was clearly within the usual range of verdicts in those cases here. And in Western europe it would not have been very different. And - as the above-mentioned article said - apparently even not in the U.S.

BTW, do you really think Seles would have gained anything if Parche had gone into the slammer for 1 or 2 years?

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:33 PM
What gets me nowdays is players use injury excuses left & right & call injury timeouts to shift momentum where Steffi usually played with a severe bad back(94-99) & a hurt knee through most of 96 & some of 97 until knee surgery but Steffi never used injuries as an excuses when she lost ...she was always gracious & classy I think MOnica was very classy too point being Obviously Monicas Stabbing hurt her the rest of her career and to be fair Steffis cronic bad back & knee & her fathers tax scandal & affair in 1990 hurt her as well. The thing that separates these twoi legends from current players is that they played through pain mental or otherwise & had great careers inspite of their problems:)

alfajeffster
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Well I would say Navratilova was great...

and Graf was a better player for me so Graf was GREATER than Navratilova

but then...

a young girl from Yugoslavia played like NO ONE ELSE before and dominated Steffi...

Steffi was great but the fact that it was so dominated by Monica Seles just add and extra dimension to SELES, therefore,

NAVRATILOVA IS GREAT, GRAF IS GREATER BUT....


MONICA SELES IS THE GREATEST
This is an interesting spin on all of this. I respect your choices, however, I'm a bit confused as to when "and dominated Steffi..." actually happened. I happen to like all three players very much, but it bears repeating, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (I started repeating this in 1996 in TennisWeek Magazine by the way):

"At no time did Monica Seles ever have a winning head to head record against Steffi Graf."

It's simple math, and not even debatable. Has nothing to do with who was #1 or who won how many slams when or surface or anything. Just the match-up between the two players and the tennis they played against each other (which was great stuff in my opinion).

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:38 PM
And would the tournament have continued if their beloved Steffi Graf was the one who had been stabbed at the venue?

Questions, questions....


Why not?

Even the Olympics went on in 1972 although 20 people DIED.
Avery Brundage said :"The games must go on!"

And who knew on May 1st, 1993, that a small stab wound would be milked by rabid Selesians even 10 years later?
No-one could IMAGINE that Seles wouldn't play for more than TWO years back then. Most people were shocked but said, thank God Seles has had a guardian angel! Get well soon, Monica, and we'll see you at FO or at least at Wimbledon.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:40 PM
BTW, do you really think Seles would have gained anything if Parche had gone into the slammer for 1 or 2 years?
she wouldn't have GAINED anything. but you go on living more happily if you feel like you were treated justly. monica hasn't returned to germany for good reason. it STILL bothers her, and there's no denying it. what WOULD stop him from doing it again if she came back and was #1 in the world?

and btw, in the US if someone stabbed someone in front of thousands of people (the #1 player in the world) the assailant probably would have been charged with attempted murder. you can still kill someone with a boning knife.

thank God monica was leaning forward just as he struck...

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:48 PM
This is an interesting spin on all of this. I respect your choices, however, I'm a bit confused as to when "and dominated Steffi..." actually happened. I happen to like all three players very much, but it bears repeating, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (I started repeating this in 1996 in TennisWeek Magazine by the way):

"At no time did Monica Seles ever have a winning head to head record against Steffi Graf."

It's simple math, and not even debatable. Has nothing to do with who was #1 or who won how many slams when or surface or anything. Just the match-up between the two players and the tennis they played against each other (which was great stuff in my opinion).

yes, this is true, but steffi beat monica 3 times in 1989, monica's first full year on tour. what happened after that is more telling of how their "matchup" progressed. monica was 3-1 against steffi in major finals. monica never really had a chance to have a winning head to head against graf if you really think about it. monica couldn't control the fact that she had to beat navratilova, novotna, or fernandez in the finals of majors because graf couldn't win enough matches to have a chance at playing her. the fact is, their last match before the stabbing was played on a neutral surface and monica was just stronger-- mentally and physically. you people laud the athleticism and quick feet of graf-- how did seles win almost EVERY long rally in that match? toward the end, monica could win points any way she wanted them-- short or quick. graf needed quick points, and seles didn't let her have them. an inside out return winner that graf could just stare at ended this affair... do you really think it would have been any different at the 93 french open where seles was 3X defending champion?

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:50 PM
One of Caligünther's big "arguments" is that Monica could have come back in the summer of 93 if she'd wanted to but whenever actually addresses the fact that the failure to put Parche behind bars (and as a consequence the failure to eliminate the possibility that he may do it - or worse - again) may have increased the psychological trauma caused by the stabbing itself. Ever since that day Monica has had to live with the knowledge that if she were ever to be #1 in the world again, a man was out there wanting to stick a knife in her.


Ebby T forgets that all tennis tournaments had a picture of Parche handed out to all guards so that he couldn't get into the stadium.

But far more important is that every psychologist, psychiatrist (etc. pp.) will tell you that in those cases the possibility of a new attack is practically ZERO. The perpetrator - it may sound funny - has done what he wanted. Raised attention, had his "moment in the sun", proven his "love". Add to this that Parche reportedly was devastated when the police told him that Graf wasn't very please with what he had done ....

But there is ONE person who really had cause to be worried after the Seles attack and who didn't make a great fuss about the DOZENS of death threats she received after the Seles attack (because she is not the type of girl to make a great fuss about anything).
Her name was Graf.
Steffi Graf.

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:53 PM
And who knew on May 1st, 1993, that a small stab wound would be milked by rabid Selesians even 10 years later?
No-one could IMAGINE that Seles wouldn't play for more than TWO years back then. Most people were shocked but said, thank God Seles has had a guardian angel! Get well soon, Monica, and we'll see you at FO or at least at Wimbledon.
that's just plainly untrue. many people thought monica would never return to tennis the moment she was stabbed. then more thought she would never return when gunther was given probation.

who knew a tax scandal in 90 would still be talked about nearly 15 years later as an excuse for someone not performing at their peak? :rolleyes:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:55 PM
poor Cali,
you just defend your idol and some people call you "idiot", "caligunther" ect....
world is unfair, mate ;)


No problem.

"Viel Feind, viel Ehr'!"

;)



:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:57 PM
3 of 5... my my, that's overwhelming!
monica won 7/8 grand slams she played... where was steffi in a lot of those finals?


The point was:
Why should Graf be afraid to be confronted with Seles in a final when she - even in her biggest slump - was able to win 3 of 5 matches against Supermoni?

Got it, Faboozadumbo?

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Ebby T forgets that all tennis tournaments had a picture of Parche handed out to all guards so that he couldn't get into the stadium.

But far more important is that every psychologist, psychiatrist (etc. pp.) will tell you that in those cases the possibility of a new attack is practically ZERO. The perpetrator - it may sound funny - has done what he wanted. Raised attention, had his "moment in the sun", proven his "love". Add to this that Parche reportedly was devastated when the police told him that Graf wasn't very please with what he had done ....

But there is ONE person who really had cause to be worried after the Seles attack and who didn't make a great fuss about the DOZENS of death threats she received after the Seles attack (because she is not the type of girl to make a great fuss about anything).
Her name was Graf.
Steffi Graf.
i'll take this on paragraph by paragraph.

oh good, so they would know what gunther looked like... that's so reassuring. psychopaths aren't likely to use disguises or anything like that. that's only in movies. oh, and he couldn't have possibly stabbed her anywhere else-- only on a tennis court.

if she came back and was #1, he wouldn't have accomplished his goal, dumbass. he would feel obligated to do it again. every psychologist would tell you that psychopaths aren't quitters.

here we go again. :worship: praise ms graf for not making a huge fuss about receiving threats after the best player in the world was stabbed on a tennis court. steffi won four straight slams and she did this all while receiving nasty letters? i bet that monica chick would not have wanted to trade psoitions with her!

faboozadoo15
Dec 10th, 2004, 06:59 PM
The point was:
Why should Graf be afraid to be confronted with Seles in a final when she - even in her biggest slump - was able to win 3 of 5 matches against Supermoni?

Got it, Faboozadumbo?
graf could only occasionally summon the courage to face seles, that's why.
afterall, you said the same thing about navratilova :tape:

alfajeffster
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:01 PM
October 4, 1979

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:01 PM
also, syeffi may have had a tax scandal with her father and all, but monica also had a lot of promblems being from yugoslavia at that time... or do we just want to ignore that? maybe monica wasn't even playing her best then.


Maybe.
Many maybes.
Maybe Graf would not have lost to a 16-year-old Moni in Berlin and at FO 90 after a 66-match winning streak if it weren't for the blackmail/family scandal breaking out just 3 days before the Berlin final? Could be, couldn't it?

Woulda-coulda.
Let's stay with the results.
And they speak for Graf.

It's never me, who starts those woulda-coulda games.
Only rabid Selesians - or Navratilovians who want to tear down Graf to promote their fave.

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:03 PM
obviously pre/stabbing Seles was stronger than Graf


Let's rephrase it:

Obviously pre-stabbing Seles was more successful than slumping Graf.

OK?


:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM
...
MONICA SELES IS THE GREATEST

... player who never won Wimbledon.


You got a point here!


:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:06 PM
The same happens in Italy, if there is evidence of mental disturb, the verdict is milder........

but Gunther was insane or just drunk???


"Reduced culpability" because of mental disorder and IQ < 70.

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:08 PM
This is an interesting spin on all of this. I respect your choices, however, I'm a bit confused as to when "and dominated Steffi..." actually happened. I happen to like all three players very much, but it bears repeating, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (I started repeating this in 1996 in TennisWeek Magazine by the way):

"At no time did Monica Seles ever have a winning head to head record against Steffi Graf."

It's simple math, and not even debatable. Has nothing to do with who was #1 or who won how many slams when or surface or anything. Just the match-up between the two players and the tennis they played against each other (which was great stuff in my opinion).


You're a crazy Grafan, Alfagünther ....

raquel
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:10 PM
October 4, 1979
Alfa, what happened on this day?

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:13 PM
yes, this is true, but steffi beat monica 3 times in 1989, monica's first full year on tour. what happened after that is more telling of how their "matchup" progressed. monica was 3-1 against steffi in major finals. monica never really had a chance to have a winning head to head against graf if you really think about it. monica couldn't control the fact that she had to beat navratilova, novotna, or fernandez in the finals of majors because graf couldn't win enough matches to have a chance at playing her. the fact is, their last match before the stabbing was played on a neutral surface and monica was just stronger-- mentally and physically. you people laud the athleticism and quick feet of graf-- how did seles win almost EVERY long rally in that match? toward the end, monica could win points any way she wanted them-- short or quick. graf needed quick points, and seles didn't let her have them. an inside out return winner that graf could just stare at ended this affair... do you really think it would have been any different at the 93 french open where seles was 3X defending champion?


What about

"Graf had a winning record against Seles EVEN in the time when Seles was #ONE (starting in spring of 1991 until The Stabbing in 1993)"

or

"AO's ReboundAce was Seles's BEST and Graf's WORST surface"

or

"Seles won the FO 92 final with Graf making 66 UES but Graf was better in 92 than in 92 because her RESULTS prove it"

Faboozadumbo fails to grasp?


:confused:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:21 PM
i'll take this on paragraph by paragraph.

oh good, so they would know what gunther looked like... that's so reassuring. psychopaths aren't likely to use disguises or anything like that. that's only in movies. oh, and he couldn't have possibly stabbed her anywhere else-- only on a tennis court.

if she came back and was #1, he wouldn't have accomplished his goal, dumbass. he would feel obligated to do it again. every psychologist would tell you that psychopaths aren't quitters.

here we go again. :worship: praise ms graf for not making a huge fuss about receiving threats after the best player in the world was stabbed on a tennis court. steffi won four straight slams and she did this all while receiving nasty letters? i bet that monica chick would not have wanted to trade psoitions with her!


All psychologists who examined Parche said that he didn't pose a threat anymore. He had a complete break-down. He even wrote a letter of apology to Seles later.

I don't think the Monica chick would have wanted to trade with Graf. But we should not overblow poor Monica's tragic fate and ignore dozens of death threats against Graf. I'm quite sure that you heard of these threats for the first time. Why? Because Graf has no IMG media machine who milks everything purely out of commercial reasons.

:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 10th, 2004, 07:23 PM
graf could only occasionally summon the courage to face seles, that's why.
afterall, you said the same thing about navratilova :tape:



Navi didn't PLAY AO and FO post-87/88 any more out of fear to be thrashed by Graf and the other young guns.

Faboozadumbo, you don't earn your living with your brain, do you?