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JCF
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:24 PM
...what would it be?

Henin def Myskina a the olympics for me. I of course like Justine, but that match hurt Nastya bad for a long time. I would have loved to see her win a gold medal for her country.

Grohl
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:28 PM
kim clijsters vs jennifer capriati at roland garros in the final! so kim would have been the first belgian grand slam winner

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Serena vs Justine..2003 French Open semis. Wish she had never raised that hand!!! Like the old saying..."if I could turn back the 'hand' of time?..uummmm.;)

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:41 PM
...what would it be?

Henin def Myskina a the olympics for me. I of course like Justine, but that match hurt Nastya bad for a long time. I would have loved to see her win a gold medal for her country.


Without a doubt AO 93 final. If Graf had won she would have been #1 in spring of 93. The Seles Stabbing would not have happened. Selesians would not have an excuse for Seles failing after her teen years were over.
:sad:

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Without a doubt AO 93 final. If Graf had won she would have been #1 in spring of 93. The Seles Stabbing would not have happened. Selesians would not have an excuse for Seles failing after her teen years were over.
:sad:Nice insight, cali. I really like sentences 1-4...but an 'excuse' for her failing?? No. That's reality!!!

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:46 PM
Without a doubt AO 93 final. If Graf had won she would have been #1 in spring of 93. The Seles Stabbing would not have happened. Selesians would not have an excuse for Seles failing after her teen years were over.
:sad:

Donīt know if even THAT would have stopped Gunther.....history has proven us that you canīt stop crazy lunatics ( witness: WW II)

But if that could have prevented the stabbing, gladly....

Personally Iīd go with Serena vs Justine ī03 too....if Serena wins that match, she wins RG and she wins the GRAND SLAM AND have the record for most consecutive majors won....because I donīt think sheīd have had surgery before the Open and considering her record at the Open and on hardcourts, think she would have won the Open too...:sad:

alex.2812
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:52 PM
i can't choose only one!!
so i would say:
capriati def clijsters RG final
capriati def hingis aus open final in 2002, if martina had won, i'm sure she wouldn't heve retired
s.williams def clijsters semi final aus open 03
henin def clijsters berlin final 03, if kim had won, justine wouldn't have won roland garros
henin def myskina olympics, the same reason as JCF, in addition, henin didn't want to win for her country but for her whereas myskina wanted gold medal for russia

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:52 PM
Nice insight, cali. I really like sentences 1-4...but an 'excuse' for her failing?? No. That's reality!!!


A stabbing in spring 1993 as an excuse for failing in 95-04?
Please ....

JCF
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:54 PM
A stabbing in spring 1993 as an excuse for failing in 95-04?
Please ....
After Seles was stabbed, she was never the same player due to motivational factors, fitness etc. Maybe that was wrong of her, but if someone tried to kill you, i think you may have a bit of a reality check and wonder what is really important.

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:54 PM
A stabbing in spring 1993 as an excuse for failing in 95-04?
Please ....If.. only if..we could walk a mile in her shoes.;)

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:57 PM
A stabbing in spring 1993 as an excuse for failing in 95-04?
Please ....

A Daddy scandal as an excuse for winning only 2 majors in 2 and half years?

Please....

JCF
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:58 PM
A Daddy scandal as an excuse for winning only 2 majors in 2 and half years?

Please....
LOL!!!!!!!!!!

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Donīt know if even THAT would have stopped Gunther.....history has proven us that you canīt stop crazy lunatics ( witness: WW II)

But if that could have prevented the stabbing, gladly....

Personally Iīd go with Serena vs Justine ī03 too....if Serena wins that match, she wins RG and she wins the GRAND SLAM AND have the record for most consecutive majors won....because I donīt think sheīd have had surgery before the Open and considering her record at the Open and on hardcourts, think she would have won the Open too...:sad:


How would Serena have won the GRAND SLAMS if she had won FO 03?

BTW, Parche was a retard. He watched the WTA rankings and was devastated that Seles was "ALWAYS #1". Of course he would not have stabbed Seles in Hamburg if Graf had been #1 before that tournament. Even debating about this is completely retardo!

P.S.: You can stop lunatics. Even the great WWII lunatic could have been stopped. First by German voters (30-33), then by Western governments (36-39), then by German generals (39-44). They all failed miserably.

Today we - well most of us! - are more clever.
Saddam has been removed from power before he could do more damage.

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:59 PM
wimbledon 1994 final: Martina lost to C. Martinez.....
OMG the most horrible result in my tennis fan career......

:crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2: :crying2:

it still hurts me like a sword in my heart

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:01 PM
A Daddy scandal as an excuse for winning only 2 majors in 2 and half years?

Please....Ouch!!!

NicoMary
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:03 PM
Mary Pierce versus Linsday Davenport US open 1999

Mary had 2 match point at 5,4 in the third sets, she made a faboulous backhand on the first one, out for something like 5cm.....:fiery: :mad: :sad:
linsday finnaly won the match 7,5...

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:06 PM
After Seles was stabbed, she was never the same player due to motivational factors, fitness etc. Maybe that was wrong of her, but if someone tried to kill you, i think you may have a bit of a reality check and wonder what is really important.


Do you really think her motivation would have been the same although her dad slowly died of cancer?
Do you really think she gained weight and lost fitness when becoming older because of The Stabbing? Or could that just have been her genetics?

BTW, who tried to KILL Seles? Do you read the IMG propaganda?
:confused:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:11 PM
How would Serena have won the GRAND SLAMS if she had won FO 03?

BTW, Parche was a retard. He watched the WTA rankings and was devastated that Seles was "ALWAYS #1". Of course he would not have stabbed Seles in Hamburg if Graf had been #1 before that tournament. Even debating about this is completely retardo!

P.S.: You can stop lunatics. Even the great WWII lunatic could have been stopped. First by German voters (30-33), then by Western governments (36-39), then by German generals (39-44). They all failed miserably.

Today we - well most of us! - are more clever.
Saddam has been removed from power before he could do more damage.


How would Serena win the grand slam? Uhmm..letīs see: she already won ī03 oz open, if she beats Justine she reaches the final to face Kim....Kim and major finals, we all know the story about that.....then she won Wimbledon.

I think if Serena was in position to win the grand slam, she wouldnīt have had the surgery before the Open...even a 80 % Serena at that time wouldīve been enough to win the Open. Got it?

Aaahh....thatīs why all Germans go in a frenzy when you just mention Hitler..even having trouble with the new film about Hitler....they know, they know....

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:12 PM
A Daddy scandal as an excuse for winning only 2 majors in 2 and half years?

Please....


A traumatizing family/blackmail/media scandal can cause a young woman to not play in PEAK form for the time of that scandal.

That is far more plausible than that a traumatizing stabbing attack (which is over within seconds) can cause a young woman to not play AT ALL for more than two years and to fail playing in peak form for the rest of her career.

It is a simple as that.

JCF
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:15 PM
A traumatizing family/blackmail/media scandal can cause a young woman to not play in PEAK form for the time of that scandal.

That is far more plausible than that a traumatizing stabbing attack (which is over within seconds) can cause a young woman to not play AT ALL for more than two years and to fail playing in peak form for the rest of her career.

It is a simple as that.
In your eyes it is as simple as that, but has anyone ever tried to kill you? :rolleyes:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Cali, cali....fact is NOBODY knows what intention Parche had....I donīt think a lunaticīs version of his intentions is really really believable. Fact is that he was gonna strike for a second time before security guards got hold of him.

When someone goes as far as stabbing someone just because she is no.1 over his fav....then tjaa...

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:16 PM
How would Serena win the grand slam? Uhmm..letīs see: she already won ī03 oz open, if she beats Justine she reaches the final to face Kim....Kim and major finals, we all know the story about that.....then she won Wimbledon.

I think if Serena was in position to win the grand slam, she wouldnīt have had the surgery before the Open...even a 80 % Serena at that time wouldīve been enough to win the Open. Got it?

Aaahh....thatīs why all Germans go in a frenzy when you just mention Hitler..even having trouble with the new film about Hitler....they know, they know....


Germans go into a frenzy when Hitler is mentioned because of the possibility that S. Williams could have won USO 03? :confused:

Which film? "Der Untergang" about Hitler's final days? A frenzy? Where?

BTW, 80 % S.Williams would have been able to beat Henin? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:20 PM
A traumatizing family/blackmail/media scandal can cause a young woman to not play in PEAK form for the time of that scandal.

That is far more plausible than that a traumatizing stabbing attack (which is over within seconds) can cause a young woman to not play AT ALL for more than two years and to fail playing in peak form for the rest of her career.

It is a simple as that.


:haha: :rolls: Come on, cali....you can do better than this. As you say: there are countless of people who go through divorce, family-drama, etc....but they still have to deliver at their jobs despite all of that.

So if one expects that Seles should have been playing within a month after the stabbing, then a scandal who didnīt do any PHYSICAL damage, surely canīt be brought as excuse for lack of performance.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:23 PM
In your eyes it is as simple as that, but has anyone ever tried to kill you? :rolleyes:


No-one tried to kill Seles.

I almost died in a car crash some years ago. For 2 seconds I thought, "That's it." I was at work again the next day ...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Germans go into a frenzy when Hitler is mentioned because of the possibility that S. Williams could have won USO 03? :confused:

Which film? "Der Untergang" about Hitler's final days? A frenzy? Where?

BTW, 80 % S.Williams would have been able to beat Henin? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You wanna make a german paranoid? Shout: Hitler!! They all go hiding for cover..but thx for your explanation about how they failed to stop the lunatic.

Serena of ī03? I think so....this isnīt clay, this was hardcourts. On hardcourts Serena doesnīt even have to play her best to win most of the time....itīs like Monica vs Steffi....the faster the surface, lesser the chance of Monica winning right? The same holds true for Justine....and the h2h proves it.

raquel
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:25 PM
Without a doubt AO 93 final. If Graf had won she would have been #1 in spring of 93. The Seles Stabbing would not have happened. Selesians would not have an excuse for Seles failing after her teen years were over.
:sad:
I thought you would pick French Open 1989. If Graf had won that she would have won 2 straight Grand Slams and, in hindsight, any argument of the greatest ever would almost have been won over 15 years ago.

I would pick Wimbledon 1995 final. I would love ASV to have got a Wimbledon but it wasn't to be. She at least has the consolation of being in a truly memorable final against Steffi and proved to any doubters she was not just a clay courter with her performance.

Jenny.C.Fan
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:26 PM
all of jen's semi final us open apperances where lost in the third set tiebreak i think if she'd won her first semi final apperance she would have had no trouble putting away henin last year and dementieva this year so i would def change the outcome of the 91 us open semi against seles because i really think if she had won that match she wouldve won that open and then wouldve also gone on to win the us open 2003 and 2004.

deep bass
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:27 PM
Back on topic.....

Vera v Nastya, Acura Classic this year. Vera served for the match at 5-2 and 5-4 in the third and went on to lose the third set tie break 17-15.

IIRC, that win would have put her in the top 10 for the first time, and probably would have seen her into the Olympics.

JCF
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:27 PM
No-one tried to kill Seles.

I almost died in a car crash some years ago. For 2 seconds I thought, "That's it." I was at work again the next day ...
Thats nice for you. If you were in work the next day, it couldn't have been as bad as you are trying to make out. And no-one tried to kill you right, don't you understand its not the physical effect, but a pyscological one. It obviously effected Seles in a big way as it would to many, obviously not you or Graf though :rolleyes:

So when this Gunther stabbed Seles, what do you think he was actually trying to do :confused: You don't go stabbing someone if you just want them to be injured.

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:29 PM
In your eyes it is as simple as that, but has anyone ever tried to kill you? :rolleyes:

good question.


I was thinking ......but what was the real intention in parche's mind? He wanted to injure monica? He wanted to killer her? he wanted to stop her? it's a mistery. Anyway I read that if the wound had been a few cm nearer the spine, she would have risked the paralysis....thank God it didn't happen


Cali you were an eye witness... do you remember what was your very first reaction ? and waht was the very first reaction of crowd in that stadium?

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:30 PM
And certainly not with a knife THAT big.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Exactly tennislover.....Monica was nearly paralysed...and itīs shocking that someone who was in the crowd, for Godīs sake, acts like nothing really happened.

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Cali, as intelligent as i think you are, you're making no sense here. You can't stop a lunatic..they are INSANE!!! Gunther would have found another reason to stab Monica...She's a threat to Graf...or she's Graf #1 rival.. trust me. He would have found a reason..and if not Seles, someone else. You say the stabbing was over in seconds..but the emotional wounds will last a lifetime...and yes he meant to kill her. Any physical attack on one's life by a lunatic is meant to do serious body damage..kill if possible. Remember, a lunatic is not rational!!! he wanted her out the way by any means necessary.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Cali, cali....fact is NOBODY knows what intention Parche had....I donīt think a lunaticīs version of his intentions is really really believable. Fact is that he was gonna strike for a second time before security guards got hold of him.

When someone goes as far as stabbing someone just because she is no.1 over his fav....then tjaa...


All evidence and pieces of circumstantial evidence (letter to his mother before the attack, weapon chosen, mode of attack) suggest that he only wanted to do what he claimed: To take out Seles for some months. Which he did. That Seles didn't want to play for more than 2 years was a big surprise for everybody.

It is not "fact" that he wanted to strike a second time. Believe me, I was in the Rother-Baum stadium that fateful day (but didn't watch the attack), I'm a lawyer, I have followed the trial. There were many witnesses. Unreliable as witnesses are there was contradictory testimony. A few thought Parche wanted to attack a second time, most denied that.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Well said vettipooh.....and Cali as a lawyer should know this. Lunatics donīt think rational...because if so, then the guy would have had served time in jail.

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Another question: how guards were so slow??????
the legend say the Germans are so reliable....
how about that security service?????
It was a disaster......

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:09 PM
:haha: :rolls: Come on, cali....you can do better than this. As you say: there are countless of people who go through divorce, family-drama, etc....but they still have to deliver at their jobs despite all of that.

So if one expects that Seles should have been playing within a month after the stabbing, then a scandal who didnīt do any PHYSICAL damage, surely canīt be brought as excuse for lack of performance.


It has been established that the PHYSICAL damage was not Seles's problem, hasn't it? It was the traumatizing after-shock of The Stabbing.

It has been established that a "FAMILY-DRAMA" was not Graf's problem, hasn't it? It was a family-drama with a CRIMINAL back-ground displayed in the HEAD-LINES of all German tabloids for almost TWO years in a traumatizing way (at least for a 20-year-old girl).

Even IF we don't want to see those two traumatizing experiences for those two young girls as equal (I sure do!) - what I will never ever accept is that rabid Selesians are willing to accept a 2.25-year respite for Seles but won't allow Graf to suffer mentally in a way that prevents her from playing at her peak 88/89 form.

And as long as those Selesians don't concede that I will make fun of a 1-cm stab wound ...

What has puzzled me a long time was:
Why don't Selesians want to accept a Graf slump in 90/92?

Now I know:
Because they are afraid that then their last straw would be taken away from them. Their delusional view that Seles in 90/92 represents the pinnacle of women's tennis until then and that because of that Seles most probably would have won the majority of post-92 slams.

englishjenfan
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Either Jen getting to the finals of 2003 US Open or 2004 US Open

Caz
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:18 PM
Either the Wimbledon 1995 final, so that Arantxa won that loooong game at the end and won the match, or this years doubles SF so that Vivi/Paola made the final and would finally have had a good shot at taking the title.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:26 PM
It has been established that the PHYSICAL damage was not Seles's problem, hasn't it? It was the traumatizing after-shock of The Stabbing.

It has been established that a "FAMILY-DRAMA" was not Graf's problem, hasn't it? It was a family-drama with a CRIMINAL back-ground displayed in the HEAD-LINES of all German tabloids for almost TWO years in a traumatizing way (at least for a 20-year-old girl).

Even IF we don't want to see those two traumatizing experiences for those two young girls as equal (I sure do!) - what I will never ever accept is that rabid Selesians are willing to accept a 2.25-year respite for Seles but won't allow Graf to suffer mentally in a way that prevents her from playing at her peak 88/89 form.

And as long as those Selesians don't concede that I will make fun of a 1-cm stab wound ...

What has puzzled me a long time was:
Why don't Selesians want to accept a Graf slump in 90/92?

Now I know:
Because they are afraid that then their last straw would be taken away from them. Their delusional view that Seles in 90/92 represents the pinnacle of women's tennis until then and that because of that Seles most probably would have won the majority of post-92 slams.


So what it is gonna be Cali? Either BOTH can be brought up or NONE can be brought up as an excuse.....if you wanna use daddy-scandal as an excuse, then stabbing and post-traumatic stress is an excuse for Seles too.

You decide....

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Cali, let's take a look at the two traumatizing situations. One is physical, with emotional trauma..the other is emotional with NO physical trauma.....uummm.The headlines are still haunting Seles, and will for as long as she lives...1st aniversary of stabbing...2nd....10th..15th...20th aniversary.....you get the picture?/ No one is going to let her forget this. Graf??/ the headlines have long disappeared into oblivion!!!

fried_beans
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:34 PM
The guy didn't spend a day in prison...I'd be pretty disturbed if I was #1 and some fuckface could take it all away without spending a day in prison.

BTW I hardly would call Seles a failure after that. She was ALWAYS in the top 10 and she still is a tremendous player. You can't ALWAYS be the best.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:35 PM
You wanna make a german paranoid? Shout: Hitler!! They all go hiding for cover....

I don't.
Because I don't feel any guilt, only a responsibility. As most Germans do.
Only difference is that most Germans drew the conclusion "Peace in our time!" (H. Chamberlain). I drew another one: You have to stop the lunatics before it is too late. With force if necessary. Therefore I supported Ronald Reagan. Therefore I support George W. Bush.
:worship:

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:44 PM
Thats nice for you. If you were in work the next day, it couldn't have been as bad as you are trying to make out. And no-one tried to kill you right, don't you understand its not the physical effect, but a pyscological one. It obviously effected Seles in a big way as it would to many, obviously not you or Graf though :rolleyes:

So when this Gunther stabbed Seles, what do you think he was actually trying to do :confused: You don't go stabbing someone if you just want them to be injured.


What should he have done?
Wielding a baseball bat?
A boning knife (suited for cuts and not for stabs) is just fine. If he had wanted to kill her a quick cut across the throat would have been enough. You learn that in the German military ...

Sorry to be that graphic. But sometimes the facts have to be presented properly. Especially when kids are posting in forums as it is obviously the case here.

Paldias
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Monica Seles def. Chanda Rubin: 6-7 6-1 7-5 (Australian Open '96 - SF)

:sad: Chanda was up 5-2 in the final set...and had Chanda won that match it may have changed her career forever.

moby
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:48 PM
i would change the outcome of a particular hamburg quarterfinal on April 30 1993

moby
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:50 PM
or maybe the round of 16 match... she could have lost to tarabini

moby
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:51 PM
What should he have done?
Wielding a baseball bat?
A boning knife (suited for cuts and not for stabs) is just fine. If he had wanted to kill her a quick cut across the throat would have been enough. You learn that in the German military ...

Sorry to be that graphic. But sometimes the facts have to be presented properly. Especially when kids are posting in forums as it is obviously the case here.
the point is not whether he wanted to kill her or not
he nearly did... it missed her spine by millimeters
perhaps lunatics don't have such a good knowledge of anatomy

Billabong
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Definitely the 2002 Australian Open Final:sad:!

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:58 PM
good question.


I was thinking ......but what was the real intention in parche's mind? He wanted to injure monica? He wanted to killer her? he wanted to stop her? it's a mistery. Anyway I read that if the wound had been a few cm nearer the spine, she would have risked the paralysis....thank God it didn't happen


Cali you were an eye witness... do you remember what was your very first reaction ? and waht was the very first reaction of crowd in that stadium?


Most of the people were not looking in Monica's direction at that moment. You know how it is in those breaks: People chat, eat a little bit, look around ... I only remember a shriek (M. Seles) and everybody stood up and raised their heads to look what the hell might have happened. Then I saw Seles slowly sitting down in the middle of the court, aided by officials. People said, Oh God, look, she is bleeding!

Some minutes later the announcer sent the spectators home. Most of us thought that it must have been a political back-ground (civil war in Yugoslavia). We were discussing Yugoslavia the whole evening. Some thought that it might have a lunatic as the attackers on Chancellor candidate Lafontaine (knife attack) and Secretary of Interior Schäuble (gun attack; paralysed since then) a few years ago.

I still remember a tearful and inconsolable Graf at the press conference the next day (saw it on TV, we didn't go to the tournament that week any more) when she said that all top players had and will have to live with those lunatics. She referred to death threats etc. she and other top players had received in the last years.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:00 PM
And certainly not with a knife THAT big.


The knife was not THAT big. Of course it could have ended lethally. Same with car crashs at the autobahn.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Exactly tennislover.....Monica was nearly paralysed...and itīs shocking that someone who was in the crowd, for Godīs sake, acts like nothing really happened.


She was not paralyzed. She MIGHT have been if the stab had been 2 cm further to the left AND the knife had found EXACTLY the space between the bones to hit the spinal chord. Possible but not very probable.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:03 PM
I don't.
Because I don't feel any guilt, only a responsibility. As most Germans do.
Only difference is that most Germans drew the conclusion "Peace in our time!" (H. Chamberlain). I drew another one: You have to stop the lunatics before it is too late. With force if necessary. Therefore I supported Ronald Reagan. Therefore I support George W. Bush.
:worship:

If you donīt feel guilt, why responsibility?

About George Bush....thing is: Did he catch the right lunatic?

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:07 PM
She was not paralyzed. She MIGHT have been if the stab had been 2 cm further to the left AND the knife had found EXACTLY the space between the bones to hit the spinal chord. Possible but not very probable.

Suddenly the stabbing becomes a bit more serious, huh? 2 cm.....hey, not that much difference from the 1-inch you make fun of all the time.

2 cm.....from never moving again.

moby
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:07 PM
The knife was not THAT big. Of course it could have ended lethally. Same with car crashs at the autobahn.
of course, the probability of being stabbed while playing a tennis match is higher than a car crash... in fact being stabbed while playing tennis matches is a well-known career hazard that all tennis players realised before they undertook their tennis career

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Most of the people were not looking in Monica's direction at that moment. You know how it is in those breaks: People chat, eat a little bit, look around ... I only remember a shriek (M. Seles) and everybody stood up and raised their heads to look what the hell might have happened. Then I saw Seles slowly sitting down in the middle of the court, aided by officials. People said, Oh God, look, she is bleeding!

Some minutes later the announcer sent the spectators home. Most of us thought that it must have been a political back-ground (civil war in Yugoslavia). We were discussing Yugoslavia the whole evening. Some thought that it might have a lunatic as the attackers on Chancellor candidate Lafontaine (knife attack) and Secretary of Interior Schäuble (gun attack; paralysed since then) a few years ago.

I still remember a tearful and inconsolable Graf at the press conference the next day (saw it on TV, we didn't go to the tournament that week any more) when she said that all top players had and will have to live with those lunatics. She referred to death threats etc. she and other top players had received in the last years.


and then you go make fun of the misfortune of the ONE who DID become victime of an attack?

It is one thing to say: Hey you canīt blame ī95 till now all on the stabbing. You got a point there....

But itīs a WHOLE different thing to mock the stabbing and make it seem like a laughing matter.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Well said vettipooh.....and Cali as a lawyer should know this. Lunatics donīt think rational...because if so, then the guy would have had served time in jail.


Maybe Parche had luck. They couldn't prove his intention to kill. That Seles didn't want her medical record disclosed didn't help either. The guy had no earlier convictions, the doctors said that had an IQ below 70 and was mentally disturbed. That meant him to get a 2-year-probation conviction only. That's the way it is in Middle Europe today. It's not the U.S., it's not the middle ages any more. Pity! I would have loved Parche to be locked away forever. I knew immediately how this attack would be used against Graf (especially in the U.S. - IMG etc.).

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:11 PM
Another question: how guards were so slow??????
the legend say the Germans are so reliable....
how about that security service?????
It was a disaster......


Which guards?
Tennistony, those were the times of innocence in all tennis stadiums ...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:17 PM
of course, the probability of being stabbed while playing a tennis match is higher than a car crash... in fact being stabbed while playing tennis matches is a well-known career hazard that all tennis players realised before they undertook their tennis career


:lol:

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Cali, let's take a look at the two traumatizing situations. One is physical, with emotional trauma..the other is emotional with NO physical trauma.....uummm.The headlines are still haunting Seles, and will for as long as she lives...1st aniversary of stabbing...2nd....10th..15th...20th aniversary.....you get the picture?/ No one is going to let her forget this. Graf??/ the headlines have long disappeared into oblivion!!!


I don't think the headlines (2nd ... 10th .. ) are the problem for both women.

BTW, that's your U.S. view. Here Pa Graf's scandals are not forgotten. Hell, the Graf Tax Scandal was the biggest tax evasion trial in German HISTORY!!!
You simply have not the SLIGHTEST idea what those scandals meant here back then. Hopefully your president has a better grasp of what is important in foreign countries than you (Be reassured - Dubya has ... ).

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:18 PM
The guy didn't spend a day in prison...


I don't know where you have this BS from ....

IMG?

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:22 PM
If you donīt feel guilt, why responsibility?

About George Bush....thing is: Did he catch the right lunatic?


We don't want to discuss the philosophical implications of guilt vs. responsibility here?

George Bush will catch a lot more lunatics in the next 4 years.
Messrs. Bin Laden and Zarqawi will learn soon.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Suddenly the stabbing becomes a bit more serious, huh? 2 cm.....hey, not that much difference from the 1-inch you make fun of all the time.

2 cm.....from never moving again.


What about

"She was not paralyzed. She MIGHT have been if the stab had been 2 cm further to the left AND the knife had found EXACTLY the space between the bones to hit the spinal chord. Possible but not very probable."

Bandyli ... ehm, Bandyboy didn't get?

Sarah<Kim-fan>
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:26 PM
ok, to go back on topic, matches I would like to see different:

- all Kim's grand slam finals (yes, 4 by now :))
- Serena - Kim Australian Open 03 semi (those matchpoints!)

Timariot
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Maybe Parche had luck. They couldn't prove his intention to kill. That Seles didn't want her medical record disclosed didn't help either. The guy had no earlier convictions, the doctors said that had an IQ below 70 and was mentally disturbed.
Not totally unlike you, then...

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:29 PM
of course, the probability of being stabbed while playing a tennis match is higher than a car crash... in fact being stabbed while playing tennis matches is a well-known career hazard that all tennis players realised before they undertook their tennis career


You can be stabbed everywhere. In the streets, on tennis-courts.
Every day about 10,000 people are stabbed world-wide. As about 3 billion persons walk in the streets every day and only 20 professional top tennis players play tennis in a stadium every day there are more stabbings in the streets than in tennis stadiums. The probability is roughly the same however.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:32 PM
Maybe Parche had luck. They couldn't prove his intention to kill. That Seles didn't want her medical record disclosed didn't help either. The guy had no earlier convictions, the doctors said that had an IQ below 70 and was mentally disturbed. That meant him to get a 2-year-probation conviction only. That's the way it is in Middle Europe today. It's not the U.S., it's not the middle ages any more. Pity! I would have loved Parche to be locked away forever. I knew immediately how this attack would be used against Graf (especially in the U.S. - IMG etc.).

Donīt know how it is in Germany, but I think in Holland, despite that his goal was not to kill Seles, heīd have still been found guilty for attempted murder...now it becomes tricky with his IQ and if he can think logically.....in the end probably the veridict would have been the same.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:33 PM
and then you go make fun of the misfortune of the ONE who DID become victime of an attack?

It is one thing to say: Hey you canīt blame ī95 till now all on the stabbing. You got a point there....

But itīs a WHOLE different thing to mock the stabbing and make it seem like a laughing matter.


I'll make fun of The Stabbing as long as rabid Selesians make fun of Graf's off-court distractions ("daddy fucking stripper") and their causing Graf's slump in 90/92.
No, I don't make fun of The Stabbing itself, only of the out-of-proportion use of it as an excuse Seles not becoming the "greatest tennis playe who ever graced the courts".

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Not totally unlike you, then...


Wrong.
I have earlier convictions.
For stalking internet forum posters I don't like and finally stabbing them.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:36 PM
We don't want to discuss the philosophical implications of guilt vs. responsibility here?

George Bush will catch a lot more lunatics in the next 4 years.
Messrs. Bin Laden and Zarqawi will learn soon.


Thing is....heīs been promising that since 11 september 2001....and what did he deliver? a meakly Saddam Houssein....who didnīt even have weapons of mass destructions (yet). To me Ossama was the BIG fish to catch and Bush failed in that.

vettipooh
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:47 PM
I don't think the headlines (2nd ... 10th .. ) are the problem for both women.

BTW, that's your U.S. view. Here Pa Graf's scandals are not forgotten. Hell, the Graf Tax Scandal was the biggest tax evasion trial in German HISTORY!!!
You simply have not the SLIGHTEST idea what those scandals meant here back then. Hopefully your president has a better grasp of what is important in foreign countries than you (Be reassured - Dubya has ... ).Tax evasion scandal/trials are the least of our foriegn problems right now..then again as a lawyer you would know that.Hopefully you don't practice in the US, otherwise ....like bandy says, tjaa. Hopefully, YOUR president has a better grasp of reality than you.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:48 PM
I'll make fun of The Stabbing as long as rabid Selesians make fun of Graf's off-court distractions ("daddy fucking stripper") and their causing Graf's slump in 90/92.
No, I don't make fun of The Stabbing itself, only of the out-of-proportion use of it as an excuse Seles not becoming the "greatest tennis playe who ever graced the courts".

To me one thing is clear: Stabbing had an affect on the course of Selesīs life and probably her career. To what extent? We will never know.....could be: very much or very little...

It isnīt an excuse for EVERY loss Seles had ever since though....if, if, weīre gonna put a question mark then itīd be between ī93-ī95 and thatīd include the majors ASV, Mary P, Conchita, won too and not just Grafīs.

Because if daddy scandal is an excuse for Steffi slump in ī91, ī92, ī93...then I think the stabbing can be used as an excuse for the ī93-ī95 period as well, donīt you think? Either BOTH or NONE.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Tax evasion scandal/trials are the least of our foriegn problems right now..then again as a lawyer you would know that.Hopefully you don't practice in the US, otherwise ....like bandy says, tjaa. Hopefully, YOUR president has a better grasp of reality than you.


Köhler?
He has nothing to say here.
The Chancellor calls the shots here. And no, he has not a better grasp of reality than me.

BTW, is a stabbing more than 10 years ago the biggest foreign problem right now in the U.S.?

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:54 PM
To me one thing is clear: Stabbing had an affect on the course of Selesīs life and probably her career. To what extent? We will never know.....could be: very much or very little...

It isnīt an excuse for EVERY loss Seles had ever since though....if, if, weīre gonna put a question mark then itīd be between ī93-ī95 and thatīd include the majors ASV, Mary P, Conchita, won too and not just Grafīs.

Because if daddy scandal is an excuse for Steffi slump in ī91, ī92, ī93...then I think the stabbing can be used as an excuse for the ī93-ī95 period as well, donīt you think? Either BOTH or NONE.


Apparently you are not the same person as "Greatest" ...
But maybe that's only camouflage?
:confused:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Apparently you are not the same person as "Greatest" ...
But maybe that's only camouflage?
:confused:

:lol: I think you already know the truth about that....

FLL
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:09 PM
I would change The 1998 Lipton Final between Anna and Venus!!! With that title, I'm pretty sure Anna would be a Grand Slam champion by now!

JLDementieva
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:12 PM
I'd go with the 2004 US Open Finals, I was so expecting Elena to lift up her first GS trophy, now I have to wait longer for it!

RedFilaJ-Cap#1
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Either Jen getting to the finals of 2003 US Open or 2004 US Open


I agree I don't know which one but these would be the ones I would choose too!!!

!<blocparty>!
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:27 PM
For me it would have to be the Seles match in Germany 93 :sad:

fried_beans
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Calimero ...take a hint.

Bin Laden is a man who lives in a cave, doesn't wear shoes and walks around with a cave. If Bush really wanted to catch him it would have happened by now. The Bushes and Bin Ladens have been family friends for a long time and they were flown out of USA immediatley after 911. If he can keep getting messages out to us then how the hell can't hte most powerful country in the world with the best investigation team not find him?


BTW, Parche didn't get sent to prison. Where are you getting your information.

If he wasn't thinking of killing her then why was his original plan to give her flowers and the cut her hands off?

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Enter fried beans....and the discussion gets even more interesting......cut hands and sent flowers?

Bin Laden family-friend of bush? Interesting...

Good point, fried....i mean 3 years and still nada about Bin Laden?

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 5th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Jen defeating Seles US Open 1991 maybe she would have not shoplifted then & had personal problems:) Go Jen Jen!:) also Jen making the US Open Final in 03 or French 04:)

Veritas
Dec 5th, 2004, 07:53 PM
I'd like to see...

Serena vs Justine ('03 RG SF); Monica vs Steffi ('92 Wimbledon F); Martina vs Venus ('00 US Open SF); Martina vs Steffi ('99 RG F); Martina vs Jenn ('02 AO F); and Monica vs Steffi ('95 US Open F).

...to be changed. They were all close matches and could have gone either way.

Kart
Dec 5th, 2004, 08:51 PM
I'd have liked Gaby to beat Steffi in the 1991 Wimbledon final which would have taken her to no.1 in the world.

I'd have liked Monica to beat ASV in 1998 French open final.

Also I'd have liked Steffi to have won her 1999 Wimbledon final to cap off her retirement with style.

I could list loads more ... Venus vs Serena Wimbledon 2003, Hingis vs Capriati Oz open 2002, Serena vs Sharapova 2004 Wimbledon, Clijsters vs Henin 2004 Oz open ... ok I'll stop now.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Calimero ...take a hint.

Bin Laden is a man who lives in a cave, doesn't wear shoes and walks around with a cave. If Bush really wanted to catch him it would have happened by now. The Bushes and Bin Ladens have been family friends for a long time and they were flown out of USA immediatley after 911. ...

Don't start provoking me, Dumbo .....
("family friends for a long time" - O Canada!)


.....
BTW, Parche didn't get sent to prison. Where are you getting your information.

If he wasn't thinking of killing her then why was his original plan to give her flowers and the cut her hands off?

To cut hands off with a boning knife?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Parche was taken into custody right away after the attack and spent several weeks in detention.

Where do I get my information from?
A lawyer who watched tennis tournaments in Hamburg?
A very intelligent question ...
:)

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:05 PM
I'd like to see...

Serena vs Justine ('03 RG SF); Monica vs Steffi ('92 Wimbledon F); Martina vs Venus ('00 US Open SF); Martina vs Steffi ('99 RG F); Martina vs Jenn ('02 AO F); and Monica vs Steffi ('95 US Open F).

...to be changed. They were all close matches and could have gone either way.


Yes, Wimbledon 92 final was close. It was Seles's narrowest loss to Graf in Wimbledon ...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

What drugs are these Selesians on? Seleroin? Selehuana? Selecstasy?

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:08 PM
I'd have liked Gaby to beat Steffi in the 1991 Wimbledon final which would have taken her to no.1 in the world.

I'd have liked Monica to beat ASV in 1998 French open final.

Also I'd have liked Steffi to have won her 1999 Wimbledon final to cap off her retirement with style.

I could list loads more ... Venus vs Serena Wimbledon 2003, Hingis vs Capriati Oz open 2002, Serena vs Sharapova 2004 Wimbledon, Clijsters vs Henin 2004 Oz open ... ok I'll stop now.


Hmm, it's nice that you would give Graf Wimbledon 99 in exchange for 91.
But Graf possibly would have retired in 91 if she hadn't beaten Sabby in the 91 final. So, no Kart, be content with USO 90 for your fine lady (That she was for sure! :drool: ..... Graf of course as well!!!)

Veritas
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Yes, Wimbledon 92 final was close. It was Seles's narrowest loss to Graf in Wimbledon ...

Hmm. I must have forgotten about the 2 and 1 loss in that match. I might have mistaken it for the 7-6, 0-6, 6-3 one at the US Open.

What drugs are these Selesians on? Seleroin? Selehuana? Selecstasy?

Jesus Christ, talk about over-reactions! :rolleyes:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:18 PM
No seriously, cali......is there any info about the "cutting her hands"-thing that fried beans said? Obviously that wasnīt his plan at hamburg, but are there any reports about the other one? If thatīs true....guyīs even crazier than I thought.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:23 PM
No seriously, cali......is there any info about the "cutting her hands"-thing that fried beans said? Obviously that wasnīt his plan at hamburg, but are there any reports about the other one? If thatīs true....guyīs even crazier than I thought.


Parche really had considered presenting Seles with flowers and then cut her left hand so she couldn't hold a rackets for months any more.
A lunatic in every sense.
Hey, he was so retarded that he thought his action would be the only chance for Graf to regain her #1 position! :eek:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Parche really had considered presenting Seles with flowers and then cut her left hand so she couldn't hold a rackets for months any more.
A lunatic in every sense.
Hey, he was so retarded that he thought his action would be the only chance for Graf to regain her #1 position! :eek:

Really? Then I canīt understand how you can still be making fun of the stabbing, knowing all this information.

fried_beans
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Calimero just because you are misinformed and don't want to believe the Bushes and Bin Laden's are friends doesn't mean it isn't true.

What does me living in Canada have anything to do with it? I'm sick of igonorant people like you who have no idea what they are talking about.



The Wall Street Journal quietly reported on September 27, 2001 that the Bin Laden family had invested with The Carlyle Group, a merchant bank that boasts several Reagan-era former government figures including George Bush Sr. among its management. The story received some attention from the alternative media, but even the fact that George W. Bush sat on the firm's board for four years barely raised eyebrows in the mainstream media or among the public.

In fact, the Journal's revelation was the tip of the iceberg. Growing out of their roots in the oil business, the interests, ambitions, and achievements of Bushes, the Bin Ladens, and most importantly the Saudi royal family have been intertwined for a quarter century. What follows is The Dubya Report's brief chronicling of that history.

http://www.thedubyareport.com/bushbin.html



This is just one of many many links that will tell you the same information. Funny how Americans havent become suspicious

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Really? Then I canīt understand how you can still be making fun of the stabbing, knowing all this information.


Where did I make "fun" of The Stabbing?

Hey, Reagan had a successful presidency after the Hinckley attack!

OK, Seles is no Reagan ...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Where did I make "fun" of The Stabbing?

Hey, Reagan had a successful presidency after the Hinckley attack!

OK, Seles is no Reagan ...


Hey those were your own words: Iīll continue make fun of the stabbing.....

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Calimero just because you are misinformed and don't want to believe the Bushes and Bin Laden's are friends doesn't mean it isn't true.

What does me living in Canada have anything to do with it? I'm sick of igonorant people like you who have no idea what they are talking about.



The Wall Street Journal quietly reported on September 27, 2001 that the Bin Laden family had invested with The Carlyle Group, a merchant bank that boasts several Reagan-era former government figures including George Bush Sr. among its management. The story received some attention from the alternative media, but even the fact that George W. Bush sat on the firm's board for four years barely raised eyebrows in the mainstream media or among the public.

In fact, the Journal's revelation was the tip of the iceberg. Growing out of their roots in the oil business, the interests, ambitions, and achievements of Bushes, the Bin Ladens, and most importantly the Saudi royal family have been intertwined for a quarter century. What follows is The Dubya Report's brief chronicling of that history.

http://www.thedubyareport.com/bushbin.html



This is just one of many many links that will tell you the same information. Funny how Americans havent become suspicious


This is for real? wow.....:eek:

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Calimero just because you are misinformed and don't want to believe the Bushes and Bin Laden's are friends doesn't mean it isn't true.

What does me living in Canada have anything to do with it? I'm sick of igonorant people like you who have no idea what they are talking about.



The Wall Street Journal quietly reported on September 27, 2001 that the Bin Laden family had invested with The Carlyle Group, a merchant bank that boasts several Reagan-era former government figures including George Bush Sr. among its management. The story received some attention from the alternative media, but even the fact that George W. Bush sat on the firm's board for four years barely raised eyebrows in the mainstream media or among the public.

In fact, the Journal's revelation was the tip of the iceberg. Growing out of their roots in the oil business, the interests, ambitions, and achievements of Bushes, the Bin Ladens, and most importantly the Saudi royal family have been intertwined for a quarter century. What follows is The Dubya Report's brief chronicling of that history.

http://www.thedubyareport.com/bushbin.html



This is just one of many many links that will tell you the same information. Funny how Americans havent become suspicious


What about

"Carlyle Group
Deceits 20-22

Moore’s film suggests that Bush has close family ties to the bin Laden family—principally through Bush’s father’s relationship with the Carlyle Group, a private investment firm. The president’s father, George H.W. Bush, was a senior adviser to the Carlyle Group’s Asian affiliate until recently; members of the bin Laden family—who own one of Saudi Arabia’s biggest construction firms—had invested $2 million in a Carlyle Group fund. Bush Sr. and the bin Ladens have since severed ties with the Carlyle Group, which in any case has a bipartisan roster of partners, including Bill Clinton’s former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt. The movie quotes author Dan Briody claiming that the Carlyle Group "gained" from September 11 because it owned United Defense, a military contractor. Carlyle Group spokesman Chris Ullman notes that United Defense holds a special distinction among U.S. defense contractors that is not mentioned in Moore’s movie: the firm’s $11 billion Crusader artillery rocket system developed for the U.S. Army is one of the only weapons systems canceled by the Bush administration."

Dumbo doesn't grasp?

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Hey those were your own words: Iīll continue make fun of the stabbing.....


I meant, I'll continue to make "fun" of The Stabbing as long as .... (you know what I mean).

Orion
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:50 PM
2003 US Open Semifinal: I wish Capriati had fought from behind to make it to the final, and then fought from behind to win the title. If not that, then 2004 Australian Open Final. I wish Clijsters could destroy Henin so that Henin's confidence of superiority was tipped off balance.

p.s. It takes a 100% Henin and an angry, rude French crowd to defeat an 80% Serena Williams. I would be money that even a 60% Serena Williams could beat a 100% Henin with the US crowd behind her. Speaking of which, I wish that Capriati could beat Henin the way Henin beat Williams: with a partisan crowd crushing Henin's nerves, and knocking her off balance for a while.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:53 PM
This is for real? wow.....:eek:


"Alternative media" should let a bell ring with you.

Dubya had less ties with the binLaden or Saudi investors than Clinton and Carter. The "alternative media" conveniently tend to forget that of course ...

Orion
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:53 PM
A side note, wasn't Osama bin Laden disowned by his family and exiled from Saudi Arabia? The rest of the bin Ladens may very well be charming people. Just because my son is friends with a kid whose cousin killed a cop doesn't mean my son was in on it...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:53 PM
I meant, I'll continue to make "fun" of The Stabbing as long as .... (you know what I mean).

ah, o.k...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:54 PM
"Alternative media" should let a bell ring with you.

Dubya had less ties with the binLaden or Saudi investors than Clinton and Carter. The "alternative media" conveniently tend to forget that of course ...

ah, o.k....

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:54 PM
2003 US Open Semifinal: I wish Capriati had fought from behind to make it to the final, and then fought from behind to win the title. If not that, then 2004 Australian Open Final. I wish Clijsters could destroy Henin so that Henin's confidence of superiority was tipped off balance.

p.s. It takes a 100% Henin and an angry, rude French crowd to defeat an 80% Serena Williams. I would be money that even a 60% Serena Williams could beat a 100% Henin with the US crowd behind her. Speaking of which, I wish that Capriati could beat Henin the way Henin beat Williams: with a partisan crowd crushing Henin's nerves, and knocking her off balance for a while.


Pity that Enna crushed Capriati in USO 03 semis in front of a partisan U.S. crowd ...

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:56 PM
A side note, wasn't Osama bin Laden disowned by his family and exiled from Saudi Arabia? The rest of the bin Ladens may very well be charming people. Just because my son is friends with a kid whose cousin killed a cop doesn't mean my son was in on it...

Good point....

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:56 PM
ah, o.k...


Why does everything need to be explained twice to Bandyboy?

:confused:

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Take note, cali.....Onion makes the point about Justine vs Serena.

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:01 PM
Why does everything need to be explained twice to Bandyboy?

:confused:


:lol: twice? Itīs you who arenīt always clear in your words.

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Take note, cali.....Onion makes the point about Justine vs Serena.


What about Onion's

"Speaking of which, I wish that Capriati could beat Henin the way Henin beat Williams: with a partisan crowd crushing Henin's nerves, and knocking her off balance for a while."

didn't sink in with Bandyboy?


:confused:

Calimero377
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:04 PM
:lol: twice? Itīs you who arenīt always clear in your words.


"Aah, OK ... "

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:11 PM
or maybe the round of 16 match... she could have lost to tarabini

wise words, mate

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Most of the people were not looking in Monica's direction at that moment. You know how it is in those breaks: People chat, eat a little bit, look around ... I only remember a shriek (M. Seles) and everybody stood up and raised their heads to look what the hell might have happened. Then I saw Seles slowly sitting down in the middle of the court, aided by officials. People said, Oh God, look, she is bleeding!

Some minutes later the announcer sent the spectators home. Most of us thought that it must have been a political back-ground (civil war in Yugoslavia). We were discussing Yugoslavia the whole evening. Some thought that it might have a lunatic as the attackers on Chancellor candidate Lafontaine (knife attack) and Secretary of Interior Schäuble (gun attack; paralysed since then) a few years ago.

I still remember a tearful and inconsolable Graf at the press conference the next day (saw it on TV, we didn't go to the tournament that week any more) when she said that all top players had and will have to live with those lunatics. She referred to death threats etc. she and other top players had received in the last years.

interesting report ty cali

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:18 PM
What about Onion's

"Speaking of which, I wish that Capriati could beat Henin the way Henin beat Williams: with a partisan crowd crushing Henin's nerves, and knocking her off balance for a while."

didn't sink in with Bandyboy?


:confused:

Explain...

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:21 PM
I'd go with the 2004 US Open Finals, I was so expecting Elena to lift up her first GS trophy, now I have to wait longer for it!

OMG poor Dementieva fans......neither one throphy won......
it's surreal......

tennislover
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:29 PM
Calimero just because you are misinformed and don't want to believe the Bushes and Bin Laden's are friends doesn't mean it isn't true.

What does me living in Canada have anything to do with it? I'm sick of igonorant people like you who have no idea what they are talking about.



The Wall Street Journal quietly reported on September 27, 2001 that the Bin Laden family had invested with The Carlyle Group, a merchant bank that boasts several Reagan-era former government figures including George Bush Sr. among its management. The story received some attention from the alternative media, but even the fact that George W. Bush sat on the firm's board for four years barely raised eyebrows in the mainstream media or among the public.

In fact, the Journal's revelation was the tip of the iceberg. Growing out of their roots in the oil business, the interests, ambitions, and achievements of Bushes, the Bin Ladens, and most importantly the Saudi royal family have been intertwined for a quarter century. What follows is The Dubya Report's brief chronicling of that history.

http://www.thedubyareport.com/bushbin.html



This is just one of many many links that will tell you the same information. Funny how Americans havent become suspicious

Fried bean, you are right but one must know the other side of the coin:
thanks to bush policy, Afghanistan had recently free elections and saddam hussein was destroyed


guy, things are not black or white, they are grey......

MisterQ
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Seles Wimbledon 92
Hingis Roland Garros 97

This would have given them both a real grand slam.

Navratilova Wimbledon 94, and her one loss in 1984 which cost her a perfect season.

It would also be nice if JCap had won at least one of her USO semifinals.

sorry for putting more than one.... ;)

beauty_is_pink
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Daniela to def Asagoe in Wimbly 2003.. Daniela needed that sooo badly :sad:
plus, I wouldve loved it if Hingis won RG against Graf.. sigh

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:39 PM
You mean like wtaworld? :eek:

faboozadoo15
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:41 PM
A traumatizing family/blackmail/media scandal can cause a young woman to not play in PEAK form for the time of that scandal.

That is far more plausible than that a traumatizing stabbing attack (which is over within seconds) can cause a young woman to not play AT ALL for more than two years and to fail playing in peak form for the rest of her career.

It is a simple as that.
if someone tried to kill you in Times Square, would you not have a lot of difficulty returning to that spot even if you liked it?

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Good point, faboo....I think cali is missing it. Very odd for a lawyer.

Pamela Shriver
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:49 PM
If you could go back in history and change the outcome of one match.....
Er....can I have more than one match changed please...like nearly all of mine...

faboozadoo15
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:53 PM
The knife was not THAT big. Of course it could have ended lethally. Same with car crashs at the autobahn.
wasn't it a 9 or 7 inch boning knife??? not that big? what do u want?

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:53 PM
As much as I love Steffi Im glad Jen beat for the Olympic gold in 1992 a gold medalist at 16 not Graf or Venus or Davenport have that but I adore Steffi & Jen:) both great players:)

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 10:57 PM
Er....can I have more than one match changed please...like nearly all of mine...


:rolls:

casanovalover
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:06 PM
don't really want to change it but it would have to be

R2 Aus Open '99 Mauresmo def Schnyder(8) 6-7, 6-4, 6-3.

Patty had won on the Gold Coast and had an great draw and Amelie went on to make the final and go to the top of the game (not just because of the one match of course).

casanovalover
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:08 PM
also Kuznetsova def Casanova in R3 RG 2004. Myriam beat Sprem and led 1-4 (15-30) in the final set and lost 6-4. Kuznetsova went on to have match points against eventual champ Myskina.

j_dementieva27
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:14 PM
i was originally gunna say the 2004 us open final, but i changed my mind

i choose the 2004 RG final, simply because elena dementieva would have then become the #1 russian in the public's eyes and she wouldnt have had the post RG-meltdown (1st round wimbledon, 1st round athens)... she could of (should of) medalled again at athens and she was so torn apart due to that loss that she was discouraged to face an early good player in molik... then in the us open final, she would have found some way to handle the pressure of kuznetsova's powerful forehand and probably have won, making her a two-time grand slam winner, #1 in russia and finishing the year in probable top three .. that final against nastya just put an unnessecary damper on her 2004 season, even though it was great anyway

bandabou
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:15 PM
Yeah...he kinda said: "oops" when pointed out on that fact.

Stamp Paid
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:52 PM
2001 US Open Final
2004 Wimbledon Final
2001 French Open 1R - Schett d. Venus

crazillo
Dec 5th, 2004, 11:55 PM
The match were Manuela Maleeva-Frahniere was leading and the favoruite at RG! :sad:

Chunchun
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:02 AM
RG,USO,Miami,Moscow Final -> change to LenaD winning of cus :yeah:

PointBlank
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Justine vs. Jennifer USO 03 or Elena vs. Jennifer or Myskina USO 04 vs. Jennifer FO 04

Jennifer wouldnt be so nagged at now if she would have reached the finals..because she would be the owner of 3 more slams had she won those 3 matches most likely

tennischick
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:31 AM
haven't read thru the thread so this may already have been said:

Hingis would have spanked Jenn at the AO after beating the Sisters back to back...:sad:

and she would have spanked Jenn the next year when she had the match points to do so. :sad:

fried_beans
Dec 6th, 2004, 01:16 AM
I don't think Bush and Osama pal around but I also am very suspicious as to why Bin Laden is still a free man. I do think Bush used Iraq for 2 things ...OIL and to take Americans mind off the fact that hes not going to catch the real perpetrator.

jonny84
Dec 6th, 2004, 01:28 AM
I would say Hingis against Majoli in French Open 1997 - if she had won she would have got the Calender Slam. Or against Staffi in 1999 when she would have won all four majors.

bandabou
Dec 6th, 2004, 02:30 AM
I don't think Bush and Osama pal around but I also am very suspicious as to why Bin Laden is still a free man. I do think Bush used Iraq for 2 things ...OIL and to take Americans mind off the fact that hes not going to catch the real perpetrator.


Uhum....just the same way as it was with the Kuweit-thing.

Prizeidiot
Dec 6th, 2004, 06:43 AM
I would have to say without a doubt the French Open Final this year. If Elena could've won that, she would've been the first Russian woman grand slam winner, and it might have opened the floodgates in terms of her tennis, she would've gained so much confidence out of it.

Sammm
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:46 AM
I would change Hingis def Seles Australian Open semis 2002. Monica would ( I believe) have beaten Cappy in the final and then Monica could have retired happy :) And she'd have more Australian open slams than Steffi then ;)
AND
Graf def Seles Wimby. Then Monica would have a ll four slams :) And the media pressure on Monica was SO unfair.

SpikeyAidanm
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:53 AM
Easy.

I would change Hamburg 2r from Seles def. Tarabini 6-2 6-2 to... Tarabini def Seles 7-6, 6-3.

But Parche probably would have stabbed her in Berlin anyway :fiery:

Sam L
Dec 6th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Hingis d. Graf in French Open 99. Because Martina deserved to win that match and if she had she might still be around today.

She's also one of the greatest claycourters to have never won the French Open.

selestribe
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Seles def. Graf at the 1995 US Open final ... actually, she hitted a wonderful ace on set point during the first set tie-breaker and won the 2nd set 6-0 ...
So Seles won 7-6 6-0 ... don't you remember ?

twight6
Dec 6th, 2004, 12:21 PM
2004 Us Open Semifinal
Maria d. Lindsay *Change*

Jorn
Dec 6th, 2004, 07:23 PM
I would had hoped NZ atleast had got a few more games in the FO 1988 Final or even winning. But now we got one of worlds best dubs players and not a god singles player after that....

MrSerenaWilliams
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:48 PM
There are SO many results I wish turned out differently:

Reality:
Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario def. Serena Williams (French Open 1998 4th Round)
Davenport def. Graf (Wimbledon 99 Final)
Henin-Hardenne def. Serena Williams (French Open 2003 Semi)
Sharapova def. Serena Williams (Wimbledon 2004 Final)
Injury def. Serena Williams (Year-End Championships 2004 Final)

azmad_88
Dec 7th, 2004, 02:43 AM
serena def clijsters ( having had 2 mp) AO 03
capriati def clijsters 12-10 in the 3rd set RG 01

R&J
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:18 AM
1992 Wimbledon Final: Seles d. Graf

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Hingis d. Graf in French Open 99. Because Martina deserved to win that match and if she had she might still be around today.
...


I never saw a match in my whole life where the loser deserved it more to lose ....

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:25 PM
1992 Wimbledon Final: Seles d. Graf


Now you are stretching it a little bit, son.

We are supposed to name only changes that have at least a small possibility speaking for them.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 07:28 PM
I don't think Bush and Osama pal around but I also am very suspicious as to why Bin Laden is still a free man. I do think Bush used Iraq for 2 things ...OIL and to take Americans mind off the fact that hes not going to catch the real perpetrator.


I'd say Dubya, Rummy and Cheney blew up the WTC themselves, Dumbo.
And Elvis is still alive ....

Orion
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:30 PM
You know what's funny? You talking about an obsolete subject on a TENNIS messageboard. If you want to discuss your politics, go elsewhere. I like reading about tennis.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:37 PM
wasn't it a 9 or 7 inch boning knife??? not that big? what do u want?


A 7-inch knife with a handle it not much. I had dinner some hours ago. The knife was 8 inches long.
A boning knife has a very soft blade. It is for boning and not for stabbing.
Do you know what "boning" is, anyway?

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 10:55 PM
So Cali, let me get this straight....a family-scandal/blackmail, whatever can be used as an excuse for a slump......but a stabbing canīt?

I ask this because you seem to be so dismissive of the facts, it seems like you almost want to make people believe it never happened.

knife wasnīt that big.
Gunther didnīt want to kill her
Gunther never wrote things like he wanted to cut her arms off
etc...

whatīs going on here?

faboozadoo15
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:27 PM
A 7-inch knife with a handle it not much. I had dinner some hours ago. The knife was 8 inches long.
A boning knife has a very soft blade. It is for boning and not for stabbing.
Do you know what "boning" is, anyway?
a nine inch boning knife...
http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/10-13-00askeds.html
here's a picture of 2 boning knives
http://www.tichbourneknives.com/Web_page-_fillet__boning_knife_NBL.jpg
the length of a knife is only the length of the blade :rolleyes: DUH.

i'm not saying he went after her with a chainsaw, but let's not pretend he scraped her with a butter knife.

vogus
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:32 PM
my pick -

Anna Kournikova d. Babsi Paulus 6-4 in the third set, after trailing 2-4, 0-40, '96 US Open 3rd rnd.

If Anna had lost that USO feature night match, she would have had to wait another year to really make it big, thus her career would have developed with less media hype, and she would still be playing on the tour today, probably in the Top 10. Instead she won it, played Graf on international television in the 4th round, and the hype machine was off and running.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:36 PM
So Cali, let me get this straight....a family-scandal/blackmail, whatever can be used as an excuse for a slump......but a stabbing canīt?

I ask this because you seem to be so dismissive of the facts, it seems like you almost want to make people believe it never happened.

knife wasnīt that big.
Gunther didnīt want to kill her
Gunther never wrote things like he wanted to cut her arms off
etc...

whatīs going on here?


A 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal definitely can be used as an EXPLANATION for a 2-year slump.
A 2-second-stabbing-attack definitely can be used as an explanation for a 3-month break. Maybe even for a 2-year break, maybe ...
But definitely not for a 10-year slump.

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:44 PM
A 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal definitely can be used as an EXPLANATION for a 2-year slump.
A 2-second-stabbing-attack definitely can be used as an explanation for a 3-month break. Maybe even for a 2-year break, maybe ...
But definitely not for a 10-year slump.


aaah....not for 10-year slump, o.k..gotta point there.

why you say maybe for a 2-year break? It DID happen on a tennis-court......I can imagine that it could be traumatic for someone everytime he/ she has to sit at changeovers, when walking through the crowds, etc...

You tend to make fun of this....but there are people who get bitten by snakes whom never again are able to even watch a PICTURE of a snake.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:46 PM
a nine inch boning knife...
http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/10-13-00askeds.html
here's a picture of 2 boning knives
http://www.tichbourneknives.com/Web_page-_fillet__boning_knife_NBL.jpg
the length of a knife is only the length of the blade :rolleyes: DUH.

i'm not saying he went after her with a chainsaw, but let's not pretend he scraped her with a butter knife.


It was a 9-inch boning knife with a 5-inch blade. Read the police report.
The Stabbing was bad enough, even with that knife it could have ended lethally - with a little bit of bad luck. Why then do you want to twist the facts?
:confused:

timray
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:49 PM
kim clijsters vs jennifer capriati at roland garros in the final! so kim would have been the first belgian grand slam winner

Exactly :yeah:

bandabou
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:50 PM
The stabbing was bad enough, cali? Really? One would hardly believe it when one hears you talk...

vogus
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:51 PM
A 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal definitely can be used as an EXPLANATION for a 2-year slump.
A 2-second-stabbing-attack definitely can be used as an explanation for a 3-month break. Maybe even for a 2-year break, maybe ...
But definitely not for a 10-year slump.

do you really not see that by Seles getting stabbed and seriously injured, this diminished her competetive psyche and made her a lesser player, or do you just deny it for political reasons? (i suspect the second one)

Philbo
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:51 PM
I would just like to know what gives calimero the right to decide how somoene should recover from being stabbed on the court?

How does Calimero know how that would affect ones desire to train hard? How does it affect ones desire to BE # 1 again when your reward for being the best was being stabbed on the court?

He is a fool with no idea.

But because he lives in his paranoid land where Steffi has to be the best, he twists the effect of the stabbing and trivialises it, whilst moaning about how tough Graf had it with ehr dad fucking strippers and prostitutes.

Its a joke.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:55 PM
aaah....not for 10-year slump, o.k..gotta point there.

why you say maybe for a 2-year break? It DID happen on a tennis-court......I can imagine that it could be traumatic for someone everytime he/ she has to sit at changeovers, when walking through the crowds, etc...


I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.

But I grant Graf a 2-year slump (but she played!) during a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal. And Graf - in later years - played and won 4 slams when her father, whom she loved very much, was in prison and she was investigated for tax evasion. That's a tough cookie. And that is my standard.

Calimero377
Dec 7th, 2004, 11:58 PM
The stabbing was bad enough, cali? Really? One would hardly believe it when one hears you talk...


Give me a quote.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:02 AM
do you really not see that by Seles getting stabbed and seriously injured, this diminished her competetive psyche and made her a lesser player, or do you just deny it for political reasons? (i suspect the second one)


A 21plus-year-old player never has the same psyche as a teenager.
Ask Graf, Hingis, Venus, Sabatini, Austin, Majoli, Serena.

And gaining weight because of your genes isn't caused by a stabbing.

Not politics in that, BTW.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:07 AM
I would just like to know what gives calimero the right to decide how somoene should recover from being stabbed on the court?
...

Freedom of speech?
Love of facts?
Comparison with main opponent?


....
How does Calimero know how that would affect ones desire to train hard? How does it affect ones desire to BE # 1 again when your reward for being the best was being stabbed on the court?

He is a fool with no idea.

But because he lives in his paranoid land where Steffi has to be the best, he twists the effect of the stabbing and trivialises it, whilst moaning about how tough Graf had it with ehr dad fucking strippers and prostitutes.

Its a joke.

If we allow Seles to have a 2.25-year BREAK because of a 1-cm stab wound we must allow Graf a 2-year SLUMP because of a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal.

switz
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:09 AM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.



funniest post ever.

almost died and yet still found the time to get a new car and start driving again a couple of days after. very impressive.

i love how people on this board seem to be more affected by and passionate things than the person who they actually happened to.

switz
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Freedom of speech?
Love of facts?
Comparison with main opponent?




If we allow Seles to have a 2.25-year BREAK because of a 1-cm stab wound we must allow Graf a 2-year SLUMP because of a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal.

who the fuck are you to say "if we allow Seles to have a break". the girl was attacked for no reason by a nut case. steffi had problems with her dad and that's sad. monica loved her dad as well and he died!!! arsehole.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:13 AM
funniest post ever.

almost died and yet still found the time to get a new car and start driving again a couple of days after. very impressive.

i love how people on this board seem to be more affected by and passionate things than the person who they actually happened to.


And now the same in simple English?

:confused:

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:14 AM
who the fuck are you to say "if we allow Seles to have a break". the girl was attacked for no reason by a nut case. steffi had problems with her dad and that's sad. monica loved her dad as well and he died!!! arsehole.
Nice to meet you!!! calimero.

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Yup, add that to the list of hypcrisies..

Steffi's early 90's losses get excused because Daddy fucked a stripper orr two and cheated on taxes, Monica gets stabbed, her father DIES and she is supposed to bounce back and be the same player she was before.

Welcome to the world of Calimero - your definitive Grafanatic

jenny161185
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:31 AM
I wish Jen would have won that USOpen semi final against Monica and ten gone on to win the USO , for some reason I think she would be sitting pretty with about 10 slams now :(

switz
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:32 AM
Nice to meet you!!! calimero.

very original

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:35 AM
Yup, add that to the list of hypcrisies..

Steffi's early 90's losses get excused because Daddy fucked a stripper orr two and cheated on taxes, Monica gets stabbed, her father DIES and she is supposed to bounce back and be the same player she was before.

Welcome to the world of Calimero - your definitive Grafanatic


I never "excused" Graf's losses because "Daddy fucked a stripper" or "cheated on taxes".
What about a quote, Dumbo?

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:36 AM
I never "excused" Graf's losses because "Daddy fucked a stripper" or "cheated on taxes".
What about a quote, Dumbo?
Go reread your own posts dickwad, Im not bothering going voer your shit again to prove an obvious point.

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:39 AM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.

But I grant Graf a 2-year slump (but she played!) during a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal. And Graf - in later years - played and won 4 slams when her father, whom she loved very much, was in prison and she was investigated for tax evasion. That's a tough cookie. And that is my standard.


whatīs that supposed to mean? That Seles was weak?

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 12:43 AM
whatīs that supposed to mean? That Seles was weak?


That many, many people are tougher.

WorldWar24
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:55 AM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.



OK.

You not human.

You robot.

Seles post 93 = crap, for one is expected to react to stabbings like nothing happened

For your information Calimero, you need to get real! Despite being a Graf fan for life, I acknowledge that before Seles got stabbed she was unstoppable. She could have become the best player ever. Graf was nowhere near her level, in many things.

There I said it

WorldWar24
Dec 8th, 2004, 01:57 AM
That many, many people are tougher.

Like who? Steffi? She 'had a 2year slump coz of her father', you said it

fried_beans
Dec 8th, 2004, 02:13 AM
It's really wierd that he has such a vendetta against Monica. First of all a car accident only proves you as a bad driver and the fact that you got back on the road so soon proves that it wasn't that serious a crash. Second of all does Monica get a slump for her dad slowly dying of cancer?

Being stabbed on a tennis court is completely different from your dad being a criminal. Everyone deals with things differently I guess.

Don't get me wrong, Steffi Graf is the greatest women's tennis player of all time, because you can't go back and change history and we don't know what would have happened. I just don't see a need in criticizing Monica, who was a 19 year old girl at the time completely in the public eye after she was stabbed. She did come back, she did win another major and she managed to stay a threat and a great, great top player. She even stayed in the top 4 the majority of the time.

switz
Dec 8th, 2004, 03:50 AM
i can't believe anyone with any dignity would criticise somelike seles. i'm not even i diehard fan. i just admire her as a person - primarily for the way she has dealt with these challenges. she came back as one of the nicest people you would meet - not an icewomen like some others.

i like steffi to btw

tennischick
Dec 8th, 2004, 05:28 AM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.

But I grant Graf a 2-year slump (but she played!) during a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal. And Graf - in later years - played and won 4 slams when her father, whom she loved very much, was in prison and she was investigated for tax evasion. That's a tough cookie. And that is my standard.:worship: :worship: major reps for you :worship: :worship:

Captain.Canada
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:56 AM
Monica vs. Steffi in Hamburg :sad:

Bacardi
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:25 AM
1999 French Open, Hingis would win, and capture the only grand slam she needed. Also her confidence wouldn't go down the shitter after that. :o

moby
Dec 8th, 2004, 02:44 PM
It's really wierd that he has such a vendetta against Monica. First of all a car accident only proves you as a bad driver and the fact that you got back on the road so soon proves that it wasn't that serious a crash. Second of all does Monica get a slump for her dad slowly dying of cancer?

Being stabbed on a tennis court is completely different from your dad being a criminal. Everyone deals with things differently I guess.

Don't get me wrong, Steffi Graf is the greatest women's tennis player of all time, because you can't go back and change history and we don't know what would have happened. I just don't see a need in criticizing Monica, who was a 19 year old girl at the time completely in the public eye after she was stabbed. She did come back, she did win another major and she managed to stay a threat and a great, great top player. She even stayed in the top 4 the majority of the time.
:worship:
in fact being stabbed at a disco is different too... i don't think calimero's friend got stabbed FOR going to the disco, it's probably some other reason
monica got stabbed for playing tennis, and most of all for being good at it

i think the one thing that set monica apart from steffi was her intensity and ferocity... the stabbing took that away
it's almost like taking steffi's forehand away from her

Greenout
Dec 8th, 2004, 02:51 PM
It took me less than a second to come up with my match! :lol:


ROLAND GARROS 1988
Steffi def Natasha 6-0, 6-0


If Natasha had won her first Grand Slam...

I think this match could've changed the face of modern tennis. All court
play would be the norm, and power playing would be the rarity.
Steffi would still have won alot of her other career grand slams; but
Natasha would be in the thick of things. Hingis, Justine, Amelie would
still have happened; but I think the emphasis would've been on skill
rather than big hitting. It may have had an effect on the outcome
of Mary and LD's careers'. :p

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 03:39 PM
i would say had Momo beat Williams at Wimby, she would have won the championships. Too bad :sad:

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 03:43 PM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.

But I grant Graf a 2-year slump (but she played!) during a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal. And Graf - in later years - played and won 4 slams when her father, whom she loved very much, was in prison and she was investigated for tax evasion. That's a tough cookie. And that is my standard.

so what Graf was a tough cookie as you put it? Do you really expect everyone to be as "tough" as you and your friends supposedly are? She was a 19 years old teenage girl when she was stabbed, IN PUBLIC, and for absolutely no reasons other than she was the best tennis player. GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!!
There a lot of difference between having a dad who is dying from cancer, and having to deal with the trauma of her stabbing, than to have to deal with a criminal dad whatever he was.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of steffi. And I totally understand that she would slump after having to deal with all the crap. But what makes me laugh is that you actually believe that Seles should have just came back after having been stabbed like nothing happened. I'm sorry, but the day you actually get stabbed by a psycho in the middle of a large crowd, with nothing you could have done, we'll see how long it takes you to not being afraid of that happening anymore.

raquel
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:13 PM
A 21plus-year-old player never has the same psyche as a teenager.
Ask Graf, Hingis, Venus, Sabatini, Austin, Majoli, Serena.

And gaining weight because of your genes isn't caused by a stabbing.

Was Monica's weight gain ever actually attributed to her genes? I think Monica's weight and lack of conditioning through a lot of the mid-late 1990s held her back more than anything else. During the 1998 French Open final the commentators were saying that it was the best shape Monica had been in since her return to the game and that her fitness coach told them to just wait until Australian Open 1999 because that's when she will be really fit due to the programme they had devised for her but I don't think there was any real difference. I think her fitness cost her more titles especially the 1998 French. She blitzed ASV in he second set but when ASV dug in hard in the third and put up the backboard mentality again, Monica got tired towards the end and made some terrible errors.

Doraemon
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:15 PM
97 U.S. Open semifinal Venus W vs. Irina Spirlia.
Irina shoulda won the match and tennis wouldn't be what it is now.. Williams domination dawned on that day.

Ryan
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:16 PM
I almost died in a car crash on the autobahn some years ago. 3 days later I had a new car and was on the autobahn again.

A neighbour of mine was mugged on the street just in front of his house. I saw him walking out of his house onto the same street the next day.

A friend of mine was SEVERELY stabbed in a discotheque 15 years ago. When he had left the hospital I saw him in the same disco next Saturday (a little bit shaky, admittedly).

OK, Seles needed more than 2 years. I'll grant her that.

But I grant Graf a 2-year slump (but she played!) during a 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal. And Graf - in later years - played and won 4 slams when her father, whom she loved very much, was in prison and she was investigated for tax evasion. That's a tough cookie. And that is my standard.

Haha, I'll call you on those ridiculous bluffs.

Yam
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:17 PM
i would say had Momo beat Williams at Wimby, she would have won the championships. Too bad :sad:

she would have most probably lost in the final.

raquel
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:20 PM
97 U.S. Open semifinal Venus W vs. Irina Spirlia.
Irina shoulda won the match and tennis wouldn't be what it is now.. Williams domination dawned on that day.
Irina winning that match would absolutely not have stopped Williams domination in the future.

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:22 PM
she would have most probably lost in the final.

laugh at me, but i don't think so.
Momo can handle Sharapova's game, which is/was mostly power at the time. It's just whether she could have handled her nerves. But if she had beaten THAT Serena, i don't think even Maria could have stopped her. Or at least, it would have been a much better showing than what actually happened in the finals.

Steffica Greles
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:26 PM
Graf vs Seles U.S Open final of 1995.

I think had Seles won that match, as she so nearly did, after all that time out of the game, she would have grown a layer of confidence that would have been impenetrable. She'd have got back into shape and won at least two of the majors in 1996 and rivalled Hingis in 1997. Too difficult to say beyond that.

But it wasn't to be.

Of course, I'd change the result of the Maggie Maleeva QF Hamburg 1993 match if I could. I think everybody would.

Yam
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:29 PM
laugh at me, but i don't think so.
Momo can handle Sharapova's game, which is/was mostly power at the time. It's just whether she could have handled her nerves. But if she had beaten THAT Serena, i don't think even Maria could have stopped her. Or at least, it would have been a much better showing than what actually happened in the finals.

Maria is known to play her best under pressure, and considering it was on grass then the chances are that maria would win, and also taking into account mauresmo's nerves. but anything can happen on any given day between 2 worldclass players.

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Maria is known to play her best under pressure, and considering it was on grass then the chances are that maria would win, and also taking into account mauresmo's nerves. but anything can happen on any given day between 2 worldclass players.

agreed...anything could have happened
hopefully these two will meet again, because only Momo seems to bring out the slices and volleys out of Maria who usually just overpowers her opponents :lol:

moby
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:33 PM
laugh at me, but i don't think so.
Momo can handle Sharapova's game, which is/was mostly power at the time. It's just whether she could have handled her nerves. But if she had beaten THAT Serena, i don't think even Maria could have stopped her. Or at least, it would have been a much better showing than what actually happened in the finals.
the wimbledon semi between amelie and serena was really not that good imho

Doraemon
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Kimiko Date vs. Graf Steffi 96 Wimby Semis
Had Kimiko won it, she wouldn't have retired at the end of the year not to metion she would have won the whole thing beating Sanchez in the final easily.
Kimiko herself said that it was tough that she had to stop after the second set due to darkness. I mean, she might very well have won the match had it been played till the end on the same day cuz the momentum was definitely on her side and Graf was having trouble winning a game. Kimiko was in a zone and in total control of the match.
As expected, when the match resumed the followin day, Kimiko known to be a slow starter, didn't have enough time to get her game going only to lose the third set in less then half an hour.
Graf was such a cheeter cuz it was clear that they could have continued: it wasn't that late or dark after all. She knew stoppin there would give her better chance of her winning. Well, I have never called Graf a cheater but as far as that match goes, she deserves it!

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:36 PM
the wimbledon semi between amelie and serena was really not that good imho

really? you are entitled to your own opinions :)
to me it was probably the best match I've seen in the actual era
would you care to tell me why? i am just curious.

To me, it was the best showing of passion and heart of the game from these two worldclass players. And all those amazing shots, I'm still shaking from the excitement that game gave me.
and the drama lol
**goes into excited mode**

Yam
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:37 PM
agreed...anything could have happened
hopefully these two will meet again, because only Momo seems to bring out the slices and volleys out of Maria who usually just overpowers her opponents :lol:

could work well for mauresmo on clay but but on grass...... :bounce: Maria :hearts: overpower.... :lol:

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Monica vs. Steffi in Hamburg :sad:


Why that?
I enjoyed this match very much.
A great day for tennis!

moby
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:41 PM
really? you are entitled to your own opinions :)
to me it was probably the best match I've seen in the actual era
would you care to tell me why? i am just curious.

To me, it was the best showing of passion and heart of the game from these two worldclass players. And all those amazing shots, I'm still shaking from the excitement that game gave me.
and the drama lol
**goes into excited mode**
i found it dramatic too, but tennis wise it was just not there
there were a lot of really stupid mistakes from both, and they were both shaking from nerves so much that they made easy misses into the net
i'd excuse amelie because she was doing a good job until her back acted up (was it psychosomatic? i can't help but feel that it was stressed/nerve induced)
serena was quite awful however

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:45 PM
:worship:
in fact being stabbed at a disco is different too... i don't think calimero's friend got stabbed FOR going to the disco, it's probably some other reason
monica got stabbed for playing tennis, and most of all for being good at it

i think the one thing that set monica apart from steffi was her intensity and ferocity... the stabbing took that away
it's almost like taking steffi's forehand away from her


My friend got stabbed because he went to the disco to dance with a girl. The girl's boy-friend didn't like that and overreacted.

You are right - Seles was more intense and ferocious in 91/92 than Graf. Why? Graf had lost her intensity and ferocity of 88/89.

moby
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:49 PM
My friend got stabbed because he went to the disco to dance with a girl. The girl's boy-friend didn't like that and overreacted.

You are right - Seles was more intense and ferocious in 91/92 than Graf. Why? Graf had lost her intensity and ferocity of 88/89.
and so monica should be punished for having greater intensity? is it quite impossible to imagine that upon coming back, this intensity would no longer be there, for the very obvious reason that winning is no longer the most important thing to monica... for her, being stabbed was a life changing experience, and she found out that her love for simply playing tennis far outstripped her desire to win, and that she was lucky to still be playing tennis

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 06:53 PM
so what Graf was a tough cookie as you put it? Do you really expect everyone to be as "tough" as you and your friends supposedly are? She was a 19 years old teenage girl when she was stabbed, IN PUBLIC, and for absolutely no reasons other than she was the best tennis player. GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!!
There a lot of difference between having a dad who is dying from cancer, and having to deal with the trauma of her stabbing, than to have to deal with a criminal dad whatever he was.
Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of steffi. And I totally understand that she would slump after having to deal with all the crap. But what makes me laugh is that you actually believe that Seles should have just came back after having been stabbed like nothing happened. I'm sorry, but the day you actually get stabbed by a psycho in the middle of a large crowd, with nothing you could have done, we'll see how long it takes you to not being afraid of that happening anymore.


I give you a freaking break. I even gave Seles one in 93/95.
And I didn't expect Graf to be that a tough cookie as a 19-year-old that she could overcome easily a blackmail/family scandal played out IN PUBLIC for more than 2 years. I didn't expect from her to play on with the same focus and intensity as in 88/89. Selesians do.
Still they excuse a 2.25 COMPLETE break and a failure to win anything after January 1996 with a 1-cm stab wound received in April 1993. Retarded ....


BTW, do you think it is more reassuring to be stabbed in a lonely dark street than on a crowded tennis court?
Interesting theory. Please elaborate .....

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:01 PM
Kimiko Date vs. Graf Steffi 96 Wimby Semis
Had Kimiko won it, she wouldn't have retired at the end of the year not to metion she would have won the whole thing beating Sanchez in the final easily.
Kimiko herself said that it was tough that she had to stop after the second set due to darkness. I mean, she might very well have won the match had it been played till the end on the same day cuz the momentum was definitely on her side and Graf was having trouble winning a game. Kimiko was in a zone and in total control of the match.
As expected, when the match resumed the followin day, Kimiko known to be a slow starter, didn't have enough time to get her game going only to lose the third set in less then half an hour.
Graf was such a cheeter cuz it was clear that they could have continued: it wasn't that late or dark after all. She knew stoppin there would give her better chance of her winning. Well, I have never called Graf a cheater but as far as that match goes, she deserves it!


Graf always had difficulties with bad visibility due to setting dusk. That's the reason why she lost 6 games in a row. At this day all the other matches still underway were stopped almost at the same time.

BTW, Date would have been blown off the court by ASV in the finals. Kimiko was a nice girl. But no slam final material. Especially not at Wimbledon.

raquel
Dec 8th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Kimiko Date vs. Graf Steffi 96 Wimby Semis
Had Kimiko won it, she wouldn't have retired at the end of the year not to metion she would have won the whole thing beating Sanchez in the final easily.

Kimiko would not have beaten ASV in the final easily. ASV lead 8-2 in head to heads and would have had a lot more experience in Grand Slam finals. ASV would have been the favourite even if Kimiko had beaten Steffi.

MakarovaFan
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Suprised no one has mentiones this:



Anna def Venus in 99 Lipton final,think of the impact that would have had for Anna:winng a title;MAJOR title at that;that woulda been what 4 consecutive top 10 wins
too bad fr Anna

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:26 PM
I give you a freaking break. I even gave Seles one in 93/95.
And I didn't expect Graf to be that a tough cookie as a 19-year-old that she could overcome easily a blackmail/family scandal played out IN PUBLIC for more than 2 years. I didn't expect from her to play on with the same focus and intensity as in 88/89. Selesians do.
Still they excuse a 2.25 COMPLETE break and a failure to win anything after January 1996 with a 1-cm stab wound received in April 1993. Retarded ....


BTW, do you think it is more reassuring to be stabbed in a lonely dark street than on a crowded tennis court?
Interesting theory. Please elaborate .....

it is more interesting to a tennis player, since she probably won't have to walk alone in a dark street anymore, but probably would step onto a tennis court with a large crowd again.
again being stabbed and the fear of having a psycho attempting to kill you is probably more to deal with than a fucked up dad, but that's just my humble opinion.
by the way, was it really 1 cm?? I really doubt that it was that small. There wouldn't have been that much blood with a 1 cm stab wound. just wondering i guess.

MinnyGophers
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:32 PM
i found it dramatic too, but tennis wise it was just not there
there were a lot of really stupid mistakes from both, and they were both shaking from nerves so much that they made easy misses into the net
i'd excuse amelie because she was doing a good job until her back acted up (was it psychosomatic? i can't help but feel that it was stressed/nerve induced)
serena was quite awful however

I agree that some stupid mistakes were made (like when Momo was on the ground and Serena missed that easy winner), but that just added to the drama i guess. Also , Serena certainly wasn't playing fantasticly, but she never gave up and played with so much passion, that I think that it more than made up for it. It's probably the first time I've seen her play with so much intensity.

What did you think of the YEC SF between those two?

Veritas
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:33 PM
by the way, was it really 1 cm?? I really doubt that it was that small. There wouldn't have been that much blood with a 1 cm stab wound. just wondering i guess.

It was actually 1.5 cm. Even though I admit the physical wound wasn't "life-threatening", the actual stabbing played a big part in causing psychological trauma.

Calimero377
Dec 8th, 2004, 10:53 PM
It was actually 1.5 cm. Even though I admit the physical wound wasn't "life-threatening", the actual stabbing played a big part in causing psychological trauma.


How do you know this?
Psychoanalysis from your TV screen?
Please elaborate ....

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:21 PM
Cali....so you donīt believe in trauma?

No one thought that the stabbing could happen the first time, but it did. That has to go everytime through Monicaīs mind....whoīs to say it wonīt happen again?

You can talk all you want....but stabbing happens all the time on the streets.....but on tennis courts? Was the FIRST time that happened to a tennis-player. You donīt think everytime she steps on a court, she gets a flashback?

Philbo
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:29 PM
Cali doesnt believe in trauma, unless the victim is Steffi Graf.

She gets to be traumatized by Daddy fucking strippers and cheating on taxes but Monica doesnt get to be traumatized by getting stabbed on court.

This is the land of fucked up logic Calimero lives in.

Typical Graffanatic - they're fucking crazy kids Im tellin ya!

bandabou
Dec 8th, 2004, 11:40 PM
Well czech.....it seems to be so....Steffi can get a trauma from a blackmail/ tax scandal, but Monica canīt get a trauma from a STABBING just because she no.1 on a TENNIS COURT? Sometimes I wonder if this guy can even feel like a human when the victim isnīt Steffi.

hotandspicey
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:57 AM
Well czech.....it seems to be so....Steffi can get a trauma from a blackmail/ tax scandal, but Monica canīt get a trauma from a STABBING just because she no.1 on a TENNIS COURT? Sometimes I wonder if this guy can even feel like a human when the victim isnīt Steffi.No, no, no, he can't. Remember? The SUPERIOR race??? :tape: Monica was NOT supposed to surpass Steffi, and become #1 in the WORLD. To him and Parche,that's a big no no!! :rolleyes:

moby
Dec 9th, 2004, 05:57 AM
I agree that some stupid mistakes were made (like when Momo was on the ground and Serena missed that easy winner), but that just added to the drama i guess. Also , Serena certainly wasn't playing fantasticly, but she never gave up and played with so much passion, that I think that it more than made up for it. It's probably the first time I've seen her play with so much intensity.

What did you think of the YEC SF between those two?
i haven't watched that match, i don't think it is shown on cable (in singapore) yet
but from what i've heard and read, it would appear to be a better match
that's the thing with too much passion, you get nervous easily ;) and usually end up making dumb misses

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:04 PM
No, no, no, he can't. Remember? The SUPERIOR race??? :tape: Monica was NOT supposed to surpass Steffi, and become #1 in the WORLD. To him and Parche,that's a big no no!! :rolleyes:

Hmmm.........you might be closer to the truth than you think...

YourBoyDan
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:06 PM
My change well i have several but the top ones would JENNIFER LOSING 7-6 in all her 3 SEMIS at the U.S open--Poor girl so heatbreaking and such bad luck and the other match would be Steffi losing the 92 french in such a close fierce battle...

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:15 PM
A 2-year-long blackmail/family/media scandal definitely can be used as an EXPLANATION for a 2-year slump.
A 2-second-stabbing-attack definitely can be used as an explanation for a 3-month break. Maybe even for a 2-year break, maybe ...
But definitely not for a 10-year slump.

April 1993

Gunther Parche, a German fan of #2 Steffi Graf, stabbed teenage phenom and women's #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife when Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events -- and 11 of the last 14 biggest events -- in women's tennis between 1990 and 1993.

9 months later ...

January 1994
A month before the XVII Winter Olympics were to begin in Lillehammer, Norway in February 1994, Tonya Harding's ex-husband, Jeff Gillooly, clubbed fellow female figure skater Nancy Kerrigan in the knee. In the end Nancy Kerrigan went on to win the silver medal, behind Oksana Baiul of the Ukraine. Tonya Harding finished 8th and was banned from the world of figure skating by the U.S. Figure Skating Association (USFSA) a few years later.

Tennis has always been more tolerant than other sports in terms of behavior.

None of these horrific acts of jealousy and hatred should have ever been tolerated or accepted. The people who gained -- or were meant to gain -- from these attacks should also be recognized as benefitting from these horrific acts of hate and violence.

tennislover
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:25 PM
April 1993

Gunther Parche, a German fan of #2 Steffi Graf, stabbed teenage phenom and women's #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife when Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events -- and 11 of the last 14 biggest events -- in women's tennis between 1990 and 1993.

9 months later ...

January 1994
A month before the XVII Winter Olympics were to begin in Lillehammer, Norway in February 1994, Tonya Harding's ex-husband, Jeff Gillooly, clubbed fellow female figure skater Nancy Kerrigan in the knee. In the end Nancy Kerrigan went on to win the silver medal, behind Oksana Baiul of the Ukraine. Tonya Harding finished 8th and was banned from the world of figure skating by the U.S. Figure Skating Association (USFSA) a few years later.

Tennis has always been more tolerant than other sports in terms of behavior.

None of these horrific acts of jealousy and hatred should have ever been tolerated or accepted. The people who gained -- or were meant to gain -- from these attacks should also be recognized as benefitting from these horrific acts of hate and violence.

true (but, frankly, graf was not directly responsable for that)

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:30 PM
true (but, frankly, graf was not directly responsable for that)

Steffi Graf was NOT responsible nor has any association with the jealous fan who did it but the psycho did it for her glory. And she did benefit enormously as intended by Parche.

I am not putting any blame whatsoever on Graf...BUT on some people in here MOST specifically ( Calimero377) who tend to make a disturbing mockery and ridicule of the Seles stabbing to further glorify Steffi as to make it appear that it never made any HUGE impact on Graf's career ..... As if the terrible nature of the horrific crime perpetrated by a Graf fan against Monica Seles with very similiar "mindset" as Calimero was not enough.

*Jool*
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:41 PM
I read intersting things here
Of course, the match to replay (without Parsche) is Seles-Maggie QF Hamburg 93
I wd have loved to see Spirlea win vs Venus at US Open 97 SF.I liked her a lot.

But if I had personnally to change the outcome of one match, it would be the french Open final in 2000.

Pierce is leading 62 65 and serving.If I remember right, Conchita gets 2 break points to level at 6/6. Had she won one of those points, I guess she wd have won the match and the Suzanne Lenglen Cup in the hands of my Conchita Martinez !!!
BTW, I am a fan of Mary Pierce too, but Conchita is my fave.

DutchieGirl
Dec 9th, 2004, 01:57 PM
Coetzer-Majoli in the FO semi's. Hmm what year was thatr? 97 or 98 I think! :lol:

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:03 PM
"No one really saw what happened. People only started reacting after this piercing scream,'' recalls Jens-Peter Hecht, at the time the spokesman of the German tennis federation, DTB.

"When I looked down the security people were wrestling someone down. Monica Seles had jumped up (from her chair), someone leaped across and threw a towel over her back".

It was only then that we realised she had been attacked,'' Hecht says. A political background was not ruled out at first, as the Balkan war was ongoing and Seles was a Yugoslav.

But it it soon became obvious that Parche had acted in an effort to help his idol Steffi Graf back to the top of women's tennis from which Seles had dethroned her in 1991.

"We had the impression that she (Graf) was the most important person for him. He worshipped her. The defendant said on several occasions that he would do anything for her,'' said psychologists in their report to Hamburg prosecutors afterwards.

"When Seles became No. 1 he decided to take concrete action for Steffi Graf. He wanted to `teach Monica Seles a lesson'.

He decided to injure her with a knife in the game with Maleeva. He didn't want to stab her in the head but couldn't reach her arm. That's why he stabbed her in the back,'' the report

"It took away some of the best years of my tennis career, that's for sure. To tell the truth, it's still very strange to me. I'm the only person in sports that this ever happened to,'' Seles told Tennis magazine.

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Cali doesnt believe in trauma, unless the victim is Steffi Graf.

She gets to be traumatized by Daddy fucking strippers and cheating on taxes but Monica doesnt get to be traumatized by getting stabbed on court.

This is the land of fucked up logic Calimero lives in.

Typical Graffanatic - they're fucking crazy kids Im tellin ya!

Make no mistake about it, this person behind the Calimero377 name is a very sick person.

Gunther Parche just like the person Calimero377, from all I have read and observed, was a man filled with jealousy and hate that overtook and controlled his thinking, and pretty soon his actions. He attached the competitive arena of tennis and people he didn't know to his own personal failings and hurts. What resulted was a horror that continues to insinuate its way into tennis dialogue eleven (count them, eleven) years afterwards.

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:19 PM
Why that?
I enjoyed this match very much.
A great day for tennis!

Were you involved with it?

tennislover
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Steffi Graf was NOT responsible nor has any association with the jealous fan who did it but the psycho did it for her glory. And she did benefit enormously as intended by Parche.

I am not putting any blame whatsoever on Graf...BUT on some people in here MOST specifically ( Calimero377) who tend to make a disturbing mockery and ridicule of the Seles stabbing to further glorify Steffi as to make it appear that it never made any HUGE impact on Graf's career ..... As if the terrible nature of the horrific crime perpetrated by a Graf fan against Monica Seles with very similiar "mindset" as Calimero was not enough.

i see

tennislover
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:31 PM
Coetzer-Majoli in the FO semi's. Hmm what year was thatr? 97 or 98 I think! :lol:


:haha: :haha: :haha:

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 02:40 PM
i see


Bottom line: Graf's record is inflated and Seles' record is deflated by a senseless horrendous crime perpetrated by a self confessed jealous Graf fan.

chris whiteside
Dec 9th, 2004, 03:01 PM
The 1966 Wightman Cup match between Ann Jones and Billie Jean King. At 3-3 in the final set, King had cramp and groaned loudly every time she went for the ball. Jones was distracted to such an extent that she could hardly hit the ball over the net in the last 3 games and the US won the match 4-3 over GB.

Greatest
Dec 9th, 2004, 03:07 PM
I give you a freaking break. I even gave Seles one in 93/95.
And I didn't expect Graf to be that a tough cookie as a 19-year-old that she could overcome easily a blackmail/family scandal played out IN PUBLIC for more than 2 years. I didn't expect from her to play on with the same focus and intensity as in 88/89. Selesians do.
Still they excuse a 2.25 COMPLETE break and a failure to win anything after January 1996 with a 1-cm stab wound received in April 1993. Retarded ....


BTW, do you think it is more reassuring to be stabbed in a lonely dark street than on a crowded tennis court?
Interesting theory. Please elaborate .....

The fact remains that the TRUE#1 and dominant player during those years, Monica Seles was not able to defend the 4 major events in the following 40 weeks (as 3-time defending champion of Roland Garros ... as 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open ... as 3-time defending champion of the WTA Tour Championships ... and, as 3-time defending champion of the Australian Open). The intended beneficiary of the stabbing by the jealous Graf fan -- immediately won all 4 of these events in Seles' absence.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:22 PM
Cali....so you donīt believe in trauma? ...

Of course - I'm a lawyer ...
:lol:

BTW, didn't want Seles money from the Citizen Cup organizers for negligence?


...
No one thought that the stabbing could happen the first time, but it did. That has to go everytime through Monicaīs mind....whoīs to say it wonīt happen again? ...

What do you think, Bandyboy - who was more in danger of being stabbed post-Hamburg93?
Graf or Seles?
Asking for a honest answer ...



...
You can talk all you want....but stabbing happens all the time on the streets.....but on tennis courts? Was the FIRST time that happened to a tennis-player. You donīt think everytime she steps on a court, she gets a flashback?

No.
I didn't get one anytime with my new car on the autobahn.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:25 PM
No, no, no, he can't. Remember? The SUPERIOR race??? :tape: Monica was NOT supposed to surpass Steffi, and become #1 in the WORLD. To him and Parche,that's a big no no!! :rolleyes:


Which superior race?

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Steffi Graf was NOT responsible nor has any association with the jealous fan who did it but the psycho did it for her glory. And she did benefit enormously as intended by Parche.

I am not putting any blame whatsoever on Graf...BUT on some people in here MOST specifically ( Calimero377) who tend to make a disturbing mockery and ridicule of the Seles stabbing to further glorify Steffi as to make it appear that it never made any HUGE impact on Graf's career ..... As if the terrible nature of the horrific crime perpetrated by a Graf fan against Monica Seles with very similiar "mindset" as Calimero was not enough.


The Stabbing had less influence on the number of Seles's slams than Graf's 1990 blackmail/family/media scandal. That's for sure.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Were you involved with it?


No, I watched the final on TV. It was interrupted due to rain after 2 sets. But Graf won the decider on Monday. A great match!

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Which superior race?

what superior race, huh? The one most Germans believed in back in the late ī30ies and that helped Hitler gain control over germany and cause the 2nd war in less than 20 years that Germany helped start.

THAT superior race.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Of course - I'm a lawyer ...
:lol:

BTW, didn't want Seles money from the Citizen Cup organizers for negligence?



What do you think, Bandyboy - who was more in danger of being stabbed post-Hamburg93?
Graf or Seles?
Asking for a honest answer ...




No.
I didn't get one anytime with my new car on the autobahn.


I can imagine....thatīs the LEAST they could do for her....did she get any?

None of them.....Parche afterall did get his wish and no Monica-fan would ever go to that extreme....it wasnīt gonna bring Monica back anyways. Monica-fans CAN think logically......that in contrast to Steffi-fans.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Cali, you didnīt really compare a STABBING with a car-accident, did you?

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:52 PM
The Stabbing had less influence on the number of Seles's slams than Graf's 1990 blackmail/family/media scandal. That's for sure.


You know did.....how?

You should take a look in BFTP....they have some choice words for you there.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:55 PM
what superior race, huh? The one most Germans believed in back in the late ī30ies and that helped Hitler gain control over germany and cause the 2nd war in less than 20 years that Germany helped start.

THAT superior race.


:lol:
No, most Germans definitely didn't believe in a superior race in the late 30ies.
And Germany didn't help start two wars in less than 20 years.

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Cali, you didnīt really compare a STABBING with a car-accident, did you?


Yes, I did.
Why you asking?

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 08:58 PM
You know did.....how?

You should take a look in BFTP....they have some choice words for you there.


What is "BFTP"?

Ryan
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:02 PM
What is "BFTP"?

The place where you were ceremoniously dumped from. :D

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
What is "BFTP"?


:haha: :rolls: Oooppsss.....I forgot that Rollo had enough of your rampings and banned you from there. :tape:

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
The place where you were ceremoniously dumped from. :D

DAAANNNNGGG!!! :haha: :o

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Yes, I did.
Why you asking?

Never mind....youīre helpless anyways. Now I understand the ban a bit better...

Calimero377
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:21 PM
:haha: :rolls: Oooppsss.....I forgot that Rollo had enough of your rampings and banned you from there. :tape:

Just have a look in "The Steffi Graf Admiration Thread", Bandyboy ...

No, Rollo went beserk at first (I had said something not very flattering about his U.S. faves) but calmed down later.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:24 PM
:lol:
No, most Germans definitely didn't believe in a superior race in the late 30ies.
And Germany didn't help start two wars in less than 20 years.

But they sure helped Hitler take control.....so in a sense they DID agree with his views about jews,etc....funny how one of those lesser races/ people: the russians, helped making him lose the war.

bandabou
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Just have a look in "The Steffi Graf Admiration Thread", Bandyboy ...

No, Rollo went beserk at first (I had said something not very flattering about his U.S. faves) but calmed down later.

You really think that was the only reason? :haha:

Hagar
Dec 9th, 2004, 09:29 PM
kim clijsters vs jennifer capriati at roland garros in the final! so kim would have been the first belgian grand slam winner
OH YES!!! That's the match I want to change the outcome of.
Sigh. I must have seen that third set 20 times by now, and I still have that sinking feeling when Jen gets matchpoint. I knew that the first girl who got matchpoint would win that final.
But Kim was SO close.