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DA FOREHAND
Dec 1st, 2004, 06:29 PM
Steffi was so incredible that even the haters love her.

BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP HER YOU BIOTCHES!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

tennislover
Dec 1st, 2004, 06:33 PM
Are you so sure about that???

WTAaddict
Dec 1st, 2004, 07:42 PM
:rolleyes: were are definitely in the off season of tennis!!!!!

Philbo
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:43 PM
blah blah blah blah..

Gunther has joined the messageboards!!

or is it Calimero's 4th username??

Martian KC
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:46 PM
Actually daforehand has been annoying us with this bollocks way before calimero.:rolleyes: graf fans seriously are obsessed. :o

faboozadoo15
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:15 PM
www.menstennisforums.com


:tape: jkjk

tennisjunky
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:41 PM
the best way to get the attention of seles fans is start a thread saying how great steffi is.

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:02 AM
blah blah blah blah..

Gunther has joined the messageboards!!

or is it Calimero's 4th username??


:haha: :haha:

MistyGrey
Dec 2nd, 2004, 05:15 AM
Steffi :bounce:

Mr_Molik
Dec 2nd, 2004, 06:40 AM
Steffi :bowdown:

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 07:07 AM
Gunther Parche is the Greatest :lol:

Alley
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:52 AM
Hail to Queen Steffi!:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:05 AM
Hail to Queen Steffi!:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Hail to King Gunther :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BeautifulGirl
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:10 AM
Steffi was so incredible that even the haters love her.

BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP HER YOU BIOTCHES!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Her BIG NOSE was so incredible :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:Bow down to the GIANT BOOGERS :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

BeautifulGirl
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:22 AM
:haha: :haha:

And that moron said Steffi was the most beautiful in 95' against other finalists Arantxa and Conchita :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: still can't figure out what's the fuss over the BIG NOSE player :haha: :haha: :haha:

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:37 AM
Gunther Parche is the Greatest :lol:


:haha: :haha: :haha:

grafan92
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:52 AM
A matter of body over mind



By Nirmal Shekar

CHENNAI, AUG. 13. Finally, it was her body that sent the message, her body that helped her make up her mind. Ah, what a cruel irony, this! But, then, in the capricious business of sport, it is always thus - even when it comes to the greatest of 'em all.

And, to think that the complaining body belonged to one of the greatest athletes sport has known this century, and inarguably the greatest women's tennis has seen!

For some time now, Steffi Graf has been in two minds when it came to the question of retirement. After her historic French Open triumph, she seemed sure in her mind that it was her last visit to Paris and after her loss to Lindsay Davenport in the Wimbledon final, the great lady again seemed certain when she said she wouldn't be back at Wimbledon.

But, in the recent weeks, there were conflicting reports about what she really wanted to do - quit at the end of the season, or perhaps carry on into the new millennium.

On Friday, rather inappropriately on Friday the 13th, Graf's mind was finally made up, thanks to the signals sent out by the finest pair of legs the game has seen.

That's the curse that every sportsperson, the not-so- good, the good, the great and the greatest, have to live with. When the legs and the arms complain, they have to leave the centre stage.

A great painter doesn't have to give up his brush and his canvas on turning 30 or 40. A V.S. Naipaul can carry on writing marvellous prose well past what ordinary mortals come to think of as retirement age. A Ravi Shankar doesn't have to part with his sitar or the centre stage simply because he's turned 70.

But, in the world of sport, even the most extraordinary champions such as Graf have to bow sooner rather than later to Father Time. Even the most resilient of champions do not enjoy a career span of more than 15 years.

A pity, this. But, it goes with the territory, so to say. An athlete is an athlete - which, of course, means ultimately the body rules the mind.

Well, now that the great lady has quit, where does she stand in the pantheon of greats? Where does she rank in the company of such great players as Margaret Court, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Martina Navratilova, Monica Seles, not to speak of such legends of the pre-War days as Helen Wills Moody and Suzanne Lenglen?

If you went by statistics, Grand Slam statistics, only Margaret Court (24) has won more singles titles than Graf (22). But there is more to greatness than mere statistics. Of course, Court will have her supporters. So will Evert and Navratilova. In fact, for sheer natural ability, I believe Navratilova is possibly the greatest player of all time. And in terms of resilience and will power, Evert has no equals.

Then again, there are primarily two reasons why Graf will rank ahead of everybody else in my book. The first has to do with her consistency and success at the Slams. Following the Golden Grand Slam in 1988, when she swept the majors and also won the Olympic gold, Graf has won three of the four majors four times - in 1989, 1993, 1995 and 1996.

In 1988, if not for a brief illness during the final against a gutsy young Arantxa Sanchez- Vicario in the French Open final, Graf might well have won a second successive Grand Slam. And, in 1995 and 1996, if she had not been forced to skip the Australian Open, she would have certainly won all the four majors.

All-time great ????????????



But the more important reason for my choice of Graf as the greatest women's champion of all time has nothing to with the number of titles she's won or the number of weeks she's been No. 1.

What has appealed to me most about the great German is her ability to shut out everything else when she goes out on court. For someone who has seen more ups and downs in her private life than most great champions, Graf achieved what she did simply because of her extraordinary ability to concentrate on her tennis to the exclusion of everything else when she was on a court in a major championship.

All great champions have the ability to concentrate, some more than others. But Graf was one step above almost everybody else in her generation. There was an almost other- worldly intensity to her concentration on the court. At the best of times, one could get an idea of Friedrich Nietzsche's ``Pure will without the troubles of intellect'' when Graf played.

What Graf came up with when everything went well for her on the court was the very definition of pure joy, or ultimate freedom. Supreme happiness and unqualified freedom are not things that lead on to something else. They are their own meaning. They exist by themselves, of themselves, independent of anything else.

And Graf's tennis, at her best, had nothing to do with the scoreline that it caused or the titles that it led the author to. It would seem to be a sacrilege to say that they were connected.

Did Van Gogh wonder how valuable posterity would deem his masterpieces when he painted his classic pieces? How ridiculous to even so much as wonder that he might have done that! If, as Johannes Brahms said, ``A symphony is no joke,'' then it would be a joke to imagine that the author of a great symphony was motivated by the applause that his composition might get.

What Graf did on the tennis court time and again was to strive for her own athletic nirvana. That is what she risked everything - her suspect back, her knees, her misbehaving ankles - for. That is the only condition of life that she ever aspired to - a moment when she could play the kind of tennis that is a perfect expression of the language of her soul.

When a player achieves such an exalted condition, she soars above not only the ordinary but event the great ones. This is why Graf is ahead of Court, Navratilova, Evert and every other woman who ever unsheathed a racquet.

There are times when sport transcends itself, moments when it aspires to a condition that is mostly beyond its reach even in the best of times. In such a state, in such moments, sport sheds its familiar skin, rashes and all, and becomes something that it seldom is - a kind of super- sport.

It is during these exalted moments that sport takes on the heavenly glow of the great arts - of music, dance, painting and writing - and the athlete who authors those moments of transcendental brilliance experiences the kind of fullness of life, of superabundance of life, that a Nijinsky or a Mozart would have felt during great moments of creative intensity.

In the last 15 years, in the sports arena, a place where it is a great privilege simply to be able to tune into a super-athlete's private wavelength when he or she takes on wings and carries sport beyond its defined boundaries, few have achieved the ``exalted condition'' as often as Steffi Graf.

Those of us who have seen her from the time she was an up-and- coming pimply-faced adolescent know, for sure, that we'll never see anyone quite like her again.

Yes, the greatest is gone.

grafan92
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:55 AM
END OF THE ROAD

The Sportstar - 28th August, 1999

In the world of tennis, Steffi Graf was a pure one-off. She never played for records or for a place in history. Driven by a force that lesser mortals were not aware of, she played for something else, writes NIRMAL SHEKAR.

"Everyone's life is a road to himself, to self-realisation" - Herman Hesse Somehow, it didn't seem right. Something was wrong somewhere. It just didn't jell. It was like watching a staging of Hamlet without hearing one of English literature's most quoted lines: To be or not to be.

It was a bit like witnessing a five-setter starring John McEnroe and not getting to see a single line-call being questioned, or, watching Gundappa Visvanath make a century without once lovingly caressing the ball square of the wicket with the kindest blade ever put to ball.

There we were, on Sunday, July 4, on the centre court at Wimbledon, watching the women's singles final. And nothing could have been more out of character. It was at once strange and bizarre. It was difficult to believe that this was Steffi Graf in a Grand Slam final.

Not that Graf has not lost before. It is not as if she's never been outhit before in a Grand Slam final. To be sure, we have seen her lose early in the fortnight too. And we have seen her end up with a more unflattering scoreline than what she managed against Lindsay Davenport on that day.

But, somehow, it appeared that it wasn't the Graf we were familiar with - in victory or in defeat. For all the world to see, the great German did try to turn things around.

It seemed like she still had the energy and the skills to fight back but not the desire. Strangely, the hunger was gone.

Was this the woman who, time after time in the face of adversity, withdrew deep into herself, gathered her energies in a tight coil and unleashed them on the court to demolish stunned opponents? Was this the woman whose aggressive movements on the court were sheer poetry in motion as she went about her business with feline grace, her body drunk with the heady brew of its own vitality?

So you wondered on that day which, in hindsight, turned out to be the great lady's last appearance in a major tournament. And it was obvious that Graf had, in terms that are vital to her, come to the end of a road.

Essentially, what it meant was that the seven-time Wimbledon champion's life in tennis was not what it used to be anymore - it wasn't as Hesse wrote, "a road to herself" anymore.

And to a virtuoso conductor of the orchestra who, for a decade and a half at the top, has been used to performing at an exalted level, this just wasn't good enough. Something had snapped - the appetite was suddenly gone.

Most other champions, afraid of venturing into the hazardous terrain that life-after-sport can be, would have simply slogged on and on until critics and fans began to question their motives and wonder why they should choose to punish themselves like lesser mortals after achieving so much.

But not Graf, not the great German champion who has, for a good part of 15 years, been a dazzling dynamo of energy and willpower on tennis courts around the world. To her, even 99 per cent could never be good enough. It was 100 per cent or nothing.

Little wonder, then, the 30-year old winner of 22 Grand Slam titles should have chosen to leave the game after enjoying the sort of summer- winning in Paris and making the final at Wimbledon- that many top players dream of, but only a handful get to realise.

The greatest champions compete not so much with their opponents, but with themselves. And, to Graf, on the second Sunday of Wimbledon, it was perhaps obvious that she wasn't able to compete well enough with herself, she wasn't able to dig deep enough to bring out her best.

In the event, it was a question of time before she reconciled herself to the inevitable, to that fact that she'd be better off quitting the game now than at some time in the unforseeable future.

To understand what tennis meant to Graf - which, of course, is to understand what Graf meant to tennis - one had to see her on a practice court.

But why a practice court? Hasn't the world watched the great lady play and win epic matches on a famous stage such as Wimbledon or the U.S.Open or the Australian Open?

The point is, on a big stage, with so much at stake, and with the whole world watching, it would hardly be a surprise to see a great champion raise his/her game to stratospheric levels. Pushed by a great opponent, by a Martina Navratilova or a Monica Seles, it was only to be expected that Graf would have soared to great heights.

But the key to a great champion's love for the game, the true pointer to her endless striving for perfection, is the attitude that the player displays on a practice court with nobody - except perhaps the coach and a few hangers-on - watching, and with little at stake.

Over 15 years, this writer has watched the great lady practise many, many times. And every single time it was a matter of great pleasure to see Graf perform on her own private stage-away-from-stage.

It is because of this that one believes that her millions of fans never got to see the very best Graf could produce with a tennis racquet. For, believe it or not, there were times when Graf played much, much better in practice than she ever managed to at a famous venue such as Wimbledon or the French Open.

This, of course, is a sure pointer to what tennis meant to her. And to see her dart about like a dervish on a practice court, experiencing the sort of ecstasy that only saints might be aware of, is to realise that the game was a sort of self-realisation for the great lady.

If Graf attained her own nirvana in a tennis court - quite often away from the glare on a practice court - then that is what she lived for, that is what she played for. That is what she risked her back, her knees and her hurting ankles for. That is the only condition of life she ever aspired to - a moment when she could play the kind of tennis that was, essentially, a perfect expression of the language of her soul.

There have been any number of great players who have aspired to a state of perfection. But, almost always, there was a certain something else they aspired to simultaneously. Maybe a record. Maybe a place in history. Perhaps even the joy of victory.

Martina Navratilova, a woman with a keen sense of history, always played for a place in history. For Jimmy Connors, nothing matched the pleasure he derived from seeing the disappointment on the opponent's face after he had beaten the poor bloke.

But there have been very few sportspersons - not just tennis players- who can be compared to Graf in terms of what a perfect performance meant to them, irrespective of whether they were playing in front of a big crowd on a big stage or on an obscure practice court.

In that sense, in the world of tennis, Graf was a pure one-off. She never really competed with her contemporaries or for a place in history. She played for something else, driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed.

To watch Graf on a tennis court in her most exalted of moments was to watch a Buddha in meditation. She was one with her work, and together they were one with the world.

BeautifulGirl
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:04 AM
END OF THE ROAD

The Sportstar - 28th August, 1999

To watch Graf on a tennis court in her most exalted of moments was to watch a Buddha in meditation. She was one with her work, and together they were one with the world.


The BIG NOSE is now the Buddha? :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: Oh My :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: Of all the stupid 90's thread this is the most ridiculous :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

grafan92
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:11 AM
The BIG NOSE is now the Buddha? :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: Oh My :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: Of all the stupid 90's thread this is the most ridiculous :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:


In that sense, in the world of tennis, Graf was a pure one-off. She never really competed with her contemporaries or for a place in history. She played for something else, driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed.
:worship: :worship: :worship:

BeautifulGirl
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:33 AM
In that sense, in the world of tennis, Graf was a pure one-off. She never really competed with her contemporaries or for a place in history. She played for something else, driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed.
:worship: :worship: :worship:


Driven by the force of the BIG NOSE?:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: You are a looney.:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Why don't you shift your devotion to the new crowned Queen of tennis the beautiful and ultra talented Masha Sharapova, :worship: its about time.

This so called Yoda big nose force is making you a nut head. :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

grafan92
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:36 AM
Steffi's Swan Song by Richard Evans

Whether or not this is the final farewell(and nothing seems certain with this restless superstar)it is not too early to assess Steffi Grafís place amongst the all time great players in the womenís game. When I was asked to nominate the women of the century for the London Sunday Times at Wimbledon, I had no hesitation in placing Graf at the top of the list, with Martina Navratilova second, Margaret Court third and Chris Evert fourth.

After that you get deeper into the unanswerable questionócould truly great players of any age have raised their game to meet todayís standards if they had been forced to? Or if they had enjoyed the benefit of modern training methods and diets? Personally I feel that most of them would certainly have become far better players than they were because few people can push themselves to unnecessary heights when the opposition does not demand it. Suzanne Lenglen, who I placed sixth behind Helen Wills Moody, seems to have come near to this constant striving for excellence as she went month after month winning the majority of her matches 6-0, 6-0 or 6-0, 6-1 which, as Ted Tinling, often in the umpireís chair for her matches, used to point out, is a very demanding task no matter how hopeless your opponent.

But the fact remains that the standard in the womenís game over the past four or five years has risen so dramatically as to make much of what went before appear little more than garden party fare. Obviously I am not referring to the top players of any eraóDoris Hart, Louise Brough, Althea Gibson, Maria Bueno, Evonne Goolagong and others were all great athletes and superb competitors but virtually all spent their time winning their first, second and third rounds against players who would not have been capable of taking a game off
todayís 50th ranked woman. This is why I felt compelled to place Martina Hingis tenth in the all time list, ahead of Bueno, Gibson, and Goolagong because she not only held down the world No. 1 ranking for a full year at the age of 16 but did so in an age where players of the caliber of Graf, Monica Seles, Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario, Jana Novotna, Lindsay Davenport and Mary Pierce were heading a field that included a supporting cast of Nathalie Tauziat, Sandrine Testud and Dominique van Roost who could not even make the top 10. Power is not everything in tennisóHingis is prime proof of thatóbut all of the above-mentioned players hit the ball at least 30 percent harder than anyone playing the game in the early eighties.

For the record my top 10 at Wimbledon read: 1. Steffi Graf; 2. Martina Navratilova; 3. Margaret Court; 4. Chris Evert; 5. Helen Wills Moody; 6. Suzanne Lenglen; 7. Maureen Connolly; 8. Monica Seles; 9. Billie Jean King; 10. Martina Hingis.

On reflection Seles may be too low considering she was starting to dominate Graf before the Hamburg stabbing but it is impossible to assess just how many more titles she would have gathered. I would not object, however, to promoting her to No. 5. But Graf, for me, remains the best, partially because there remains this nagging feeling that she could actually play better than she does. There is so much talent there; so much athletic ability and so much desire that the package becomes irresistible while remaining strangely unfulfilled.

So is this really the end? It is far too early to make dogmatic statements about what the future holds in store for a player who has run the gamut of emotion and fate in the last two months. Unbridled joy at beating Martina Hingis to win the French Open; grim-faced despair at losing to Lindsay Davenport at Wimbledon and incurring the wrath of her deserted mixed doubles partner John McEnroe in the process; an announcement she would retire at the end of the year; a rebuttal three weeks ago saying she felt fit and hungry enough to play on for longer and then the supposedly definitive announcementóauf wiedersehenóright now, for good.

It is necessary to hang all sorts of conditions and clarifications on that final statement. First of all, it does not mean we will never see Graf on a tennis court again. Just a few days ago in California, members of her entourage were telling my colleague Andrea Leand, that they were all saddled up and ready for an autumn exhibition tour that will see Steffi galloping around European cities on one night stands.

On reflection this makes perfect sense for Graf at this stage of her career. People who know her are constantly amazed by the intensity of her emotions over winning and losing tennis matches. With millions in the bankódespite having handed a large part of her fortune back to the German tax authoritiesóplus 22 Grand Slam titles and a reputation as one of the most graceful and popular sporting icons of the last two decades, one would have thought the beach would beckon. Feet up, piÒa coladas, racing driver boyfriend Michael Bartels bronzing
in the Caribbean sun by her side as the yacht rides at anchor. Who needs to get all sweaty pounding a tennis ball on hard concrete?

The answer is that, deep down, Steffi does. Tennis has been her release, her salvation and her life. Driven, impatient and hugely competitive, this complex personality only seems to be able to keep her insecurities at bay by winning matches. And the insecurity, shared in almost equal part by Andre Agassi for much of his career, is hard to fathom considering just how successful and admired Graf has become. But its existence seems to be the only way to explain why Graf takes defeat so hard while reacting to success like a little girl in a candy store, literally hopping around in delight on the winnerís podium at Roland Garros. You expect a girlish skip or two from the teenagers but Graf is a 30-year-old woman.

In that respect she is not that much different from the child who, at the age of 13 years 4 months, became the second youngest player ever to receive a WTA ranking in 1982 (the following year, Stephanie Rehe was the youngest player to receive a ranking at 13 years, 2 months). In other respects, Graf has developed into a person who has been taught the harsh realities of life with a father who drank too much and ended up in prison on tax evasion. Yet, loyal to people as well as the animals she collects and succors in her mansion outside Heidelberg, she never deserted him. The question is whether she will be able to find anything to replace tennis. ìShe takes refuge on court to get away from her problems just like I did,î Billie Jean King told me during a conversation at Wimbledon.

And yet out there, on the stage she commands with such power, athleticism and grace, the insecurities linger. Even technical ones. Count the number of times you saw Graf hit an aggressive topspin backhand at Wimbledon this year and you will not use up the fingers on your hand. Yet on the practice court with coach Heinz Gunthardt she hits the shot as well as anyone. The safer slice is her security blanket; her anchor amidst the storms of uncertainty that swirl around her on courtóand off.

Now she is cutting herself adrift from all that, possibly to throw herself into the arms of Bartels, the German racer she has been dating for seven years. Some friends in Germany think they may already be married. Certainly Graf will not be inviting the world to the wedding, if and when it does take place.

Close observers of the womenís game like Leand feel that Graf will play her exhibitions and then, if the body holds up, be tempted back into the competitive arena. ìSome charity work and holding hands with Michael wonít do it,î says Leand. ìShe loves this game so much she will find it very difficult to stay away.î

Time will tell whether that is true but, just in case it isnít, letís bid a generous farewell to Steffi Graf. For my money, she did it all and had it all. No. 1 for the 20th Century. Not a bad epitaph.

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:46 AM
blah blah blah blah..

Gunther has joined the messageboards!!

or is it Calimero's 4th username??

Very True Czech :lol:

Gunter Parche, a 39-year-old unemployed lathe operator, was convicted for the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993.

He was described as a loner, whose obsession with seeing Steffi Graf regain the world no.1 ranking prompted the attack. He was given a two-year suspended sentence.

It was over two years before Monica Seles returned to tennis competition.

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:22 AM
In that sense, in the world of tennis, Graf was a pure one-off. She never really competed with her contemporaries or for a place in history. She played for something else, driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed.
:worship: :worship: :worship:


OMG poor me I'm a lesser mortal......
was she a player or a saint????


sorry your words sound a little bit racist........

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:27 AM
Graf... seemed to be a Buddha in meditation?????????????
OMG I never heard anything more ridiculous than that.......

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:30 AM
Driven by the force of the BIG NOSE?:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: You are a looney.:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Why don't you shift your devotion to the new crowned Queen of tennis the beautiful and ultra talented Masha Sharapova, :worship: its about time.

This so called Yoda big nose force is making you a nut head. :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:


:haha:

grafan92
Dec 2nd, 2004, 11:47 AM
OMG poor me I'm a lesser mortal......
was she a player or a saint????


sorry your words sound a little bit racist........

Racist?? :eek:
Those aren't my words.....and I don't think the journalist implied any racist connotations to it! I'm sure you know understand what it is that he's trying to say.

In India, we been through Colonialism. My grand parents have seen the end of British rule in India and also the partition. As far as racism goes, we've only been at the receiving end of it.

Steffi was a player, of saintly stature ;)
:angel:

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:02 PM
Graf... seemed to be a Buddha in meditation?????????????
OMG I never heard anything more ridiculous than that.......

:lol:

GoDominique
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:09 PM
Steffi. :)

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:10 PM
Racist??
Steffi was a player, of saintly stature ;)

:angel:

All alone in a padded cell? :lol:

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:29 PM
Racist?? :eek:
Those aren't my words.....and I don't think the journalist implied any racist connotations to it! I'm sure you know understand what it is that he's trying to say.

In India, we been through Colonialism. My grand parents have seen the end of British rule in India and also the partition. As far as racism goes, we've only been at the receiving end of it.

Steffi was a player, of saintly stature ;)
:angel:

the journalist wrote: " she.....(was) driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed. "

What does it mean? Who are "lesser mortal"?
I, you, Graf, that journalist and whoever you want
(Calimero included ;) ) we all are "lesser mortal"
No "superior" creatures, please......


you are right, that's not racism....... that's fanatism......

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:30 PM
All alone in a padded cell? :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

MistyGrey
Dec 2nd, 2004, 12:55 PM
Oh Look at all the haters in this thread :lol::lol:

And they say they dont care about Steffi :haha:

Steffi! :worship:

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 01:00 PM
Oh Look at all the haters in this thread :lol::lol:

And they say they dont care about Steffi :haha:

Steffi! :worship:

Yes I simply adore..... criticizing Graf......... :lol:

vutt
Dec 2nd, 2004, 01:28 PM
Steffi! :)

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:28 PM
blah blah blah blah..

Gunther has joined the messageboards!!

or is it Calimero's 4th username??
i don't think you are different with Gunther :wavey:

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:46 PM
graf fans seriously are obsessed. :o
you are right,I am obsessed with steffi,I always thought of Steffi Graf every day during the last years,but I know I am not the only one.

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 03:54 PM
Yes I simply adore..... criticizing Graf......... :lol:
yeah,I appreciated those criticisms sometimes,because those criticisms let me more vividly experienced steffi's pro career surroundings to some extent in those years and tell myself Steffi Graf is my idol forever.

Kart
Dec 2nd, 2004, 05:19 PM
BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP HER YOU BIOTCHES!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:
I had no idea you were into the domination scene DA FOREHAND.

There's a whole web community for your tastes if you're not a member already.

DevilishAttitude
Dec 2nd, 2004, 05:26 PM
Why are there loads of these type threads about Seles and Graf currently :rolleyes:

It's outdated, annoying and bring millions of trolls around and it's very hateful to both players :rolleyes:

Why can't they have a discussion about whats happening currently in tennis instead of living in the past :tape:

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 2nd, 2004, 05:32 PM
I think Seles & Navi(grandma Moses) are the obssessed fans on this webboard who live in a world where reality ceases to exist lol:)

LDVTennis
Dec 2nd, 2004, 07:53 PM
I had no idea you were into the domination scene DA FOREHAND.

There's a whole web community for your tastes if you're not a member already.

Oh, but Kart, weren't you the one tellng me, rather sanctimoniously, just a few moments ago that I should just ignore the inflammatory and insulting posts? That there was no justification for what I was doing. That no one was forcing me to match insults of Steffi with insults of Seles and her fans.

So, I wonder what is forcing you now to respond to DA FOREHAND like this. Is it some higher power? Have you been talking to GOD again? Is that what explains your tone, your hypocrisy, these comments. In the States, those who say they talk to God directly also tend to be the most cynical and hypocritical, so that is why I am asking.

And, to think you wanted me to follow your advice and take the higher road. I think I will just follow your example. That seems more honest.

DA FOREHAND
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:07 PM
Oh, but Kart, weren't you the one tellng me, rather sanctimoniously, just a few moments ago that I should just ignore the inflammatory and insulting posts? That there was no justification for what I was doing. That no one was forcing me to match insults of Steffi with insults of Seles and her fans.

So, I wonder what is forcing you now to respond to DA FOREHAND like this. Is it some higher power? Have you been talking to GOD again? Is that what explains your tone, your hypocrisy, these comments. In the States, those who say they talk to God directly also tend to be the most cynical and hypocritical, so that is why I am asking.

And, to think you wanted me to follow your advice and take the higher road. I think I will just follow your example. That seems more honest.


I come not to bury Steffi, but to praise her, and I see simply posting this thread has brought out those who also praise her, as I said in the opening statement even the haters love her, what else explains the fact that they are forever bringing her up?

Her game transcended three generations of players, and stood the test of time, and she came through ea. w/a winning or even h2h agianst all the major players. :worship: :worship: :worship:

miranda_lou
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:23 PM
Now she is cutting herself adrift from all that, possibly to throw herself into the arms of Bartels, the German racer she has been dating for seven years. Some friends in Germany think they may already be married. Certainly Graf will not be inviting the world to the wedding, if and when it does take place.
Geesh!!! These "sportswriters" were certainly observant back then.:lol: :lol:
Steffi was already in the arms of Andre!! She'd already moved into his house in Vegas.:rolleyes:

Close observers of the womenís game like Leand feel that Graf will play her exhibitions and then, if the body holds up, be tempted back into the competitive arena. ìSome charity work and holding hands with Michael wonít do it,î says Leand. ìShe loves this game so much she will find it very difficult to stay away.î
This Leand person was interviewed for the ESPN Sportscentury documentary on Steffi and she appeared to be very bitter and hateful. Wonder if it's because Steffi Graf didn't follow the path set out for her by this woman.:fiery:

schris
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:30 PM
Steffi :D :worship: :worship: :worship:

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:35 PM
Why are there loads of these type threads about Seles and Graf currently :rolleyes:

It's outdated, annoying and bring millions of trolls around and it's very hateful to both players :rolleyes:

Why can't they have a discussion about whats happening currently in tennis instead of living in the past :tape:
because some poor people only have past for many years and have to excessively used that 1-cm wound year after year without courage to face their real reason of the poor.

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:43 PM
because some poor people only have past for many years and have to excessively used that 1-cm wound year after year without courage to face their real reason of the poor.

1-cm wound?????? OMG I'm really shocked by your words.....
How about that psycological trauma??????

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:47 PM
Oh, but Kart, weren't you the one tellng me, rather sanctimoniously, just a few moments ago that I should just ignore the inflammatory and insulting posts? That there was no justification for what I was doing. That no one was forcing me to match insults of Steffi with insults of Seles and her fans.

So, I wonder what is forcing you now to respond to DA FOREHAND like this. Is it some higher power? Have you been talking to GOD again? Is that what explains your tone, your hypocrisy, these comments. In the States, those who say they talk to God directly also tend to be the most cynical and hypocritical, so that is why I am asking.

And, to think you wanted me to follow your advice and take the higher road. I think I will just follow your example. That seems more honest.
from I first saw kart' posts in this forum,I immediately knew what a people he/she like ,he/she is just a camouflage for those mean seles fans
just people kart like are protecting those rascal seles fans insulting steffi graf year after year.

nari
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:54 PM
1-cm wound?????? OMG I'm really shocked by your words.....
How about that psycological trauma??????
I just told the truth that you are excessively use that wound,if you want to see those archives about that 1cm wound,I will post them.
and what anyway a huge psycological trauma it is,I just say "it hasn't anying with our steffi"
only gunther+seles+seles' fans are responded to the so called psycological trauma.

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:11 PM
And that moron said Steffi was the most beautiful in 95' against other finalists Arantxa and Conchita :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: still can't figure out what's the fuss over the BIG NOSE player :haha: :haha: :haha:


Sabatini was 2nd, MJ Fernandez 3rd, Date 4th.

OK, Seles was competing in 1995 ....

:lol:

Kart
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:11 PM
Oh, but Kart, weren't you the one tellng me, rather sanctimoniously, just a few moments ago that I should just ignore the inflammatory and insulting posts? That there was no justification for what I was doing. That no one was forcing me to match insults of Steffi with insults of Seles and her fans.

So, I wonder what is forcing you now to respond to DA FOREHAND like this. Is it some higher power? Have you been talking to GOD again? Is that what explains your tone, your hypocrisy, these comments. In the States, those who say they talk to God directly also tend to be the most cynical and hypocritical, so that is why I am asking.

And, to think you wanted me to follow your advice and take the higher road. I think I will just follow your example. That seems more honest.:lol: What are you on about ? I never made any negative implications and it's not my fault if you can't pick up on sarcasm. If that's really his/her scene I've got no issues with it. It was just some free advice, and, unlike you, he/she managed to ignore it.

Of course, if I had waded in here and said 'Steffi's greatest doubles partnership was with bread and butter' like you did then maybe you'd have an argument worth reading.

Either way you seemed to miss the point in the other thread so let me repeat it for you: insulting a player in an attempt to get at her fans is pathetic and inexcusable.

By all means stand up for yourself if someone takes a shot at you but that's completely different and DA FOREHAND can stand up for himself/herself as I know from prior experience so I wouldn't worry lose too much sleep over my response.

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:13 PM
In that sense, in the world of tennis, Graf was a pure one-off. She never really competed with her contemporaries or for a place in history. She played for something else, driven by a force that lesser mortals did not even begin to suspect existed.
:worship: :worship: :worship:


Try to explain Beethoven to Britney fans ...

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:21 PM
Try to explain Beethoven to Britney fans ...

it's going to end up that graf is like shakespeare, beethoven etc......go figure........

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:26 PM
it's going to end up that graf is like shakespeare, beethoven etc...........

You got a point here ...

bandabou
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:30 PM
Well if Steffi was beethoven, then Martina N certainly would have been Mozart.....Beethoven or Mozart,

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:38 PM
Well if Steffi was beethoven, then Martina N certainly would have been Mozart.....Beethoven or Mozart,

I adore Mozart......(the real one) I think that he was the greatest genius of all time
Attention: Mozart was not austrian, he belonged to the world......
(also great Martina belongs to the world ;) )

bandabou
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:42 PM
I adore Mozart......(the real one) I think that he was the greatest genius of all time
Attention: Mozart was not austrian, he belonged to the world......
(also great Martina belongs to the world ;) )

:lol:

JLDementieva
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:24 PM
Steffi!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:49 PM
Well if Steffi was beethoven, then Martina N certainly would have been Mozart.....Beethoven or Mozart,


Or Steffi Mozart?
Seles is Salieri.
Henin Brahms?
Williams sisters are Rolling Stones.
Sharapova is Spears ...

alfajeffster
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:54 PM
I started out this morning to go to the grocery store, but I forgot my Chopin Liszt...:lol:

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:54 PM
I adore Mozart......(the real one) I think that he was the greatest genius of all time
Attention: Mozart was not austrian, he belonged to the world......
(also great Martina belongs to the world ;) )


No, Mozart was no Austrian. He was a Salzburg native. Salzburg didn't belong to Austria at that time, was part of the same country Graf is from.

:p

tennislover
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:56 PM
I started out this morning to go to the grocery store, but I forgot my Chopin Liszt...:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

tennislover
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:58 PM
No, Mozart was no Austrian. He was a Salzburg native. Salzburg didn't belong to Austria at that time, was part of the same country Graf is from.

:p

really?????? It's the first time I hear that

tennislover
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:59 PM
Or Steffi Mozart?
Seles is Salieri.
Henin Brahms?
Williams sisters are Rolling Stones.
Sharapova is Spears ...


hands off Mozart, please......

alfajeffster
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:00 PM
No, Mozart was no Austrian. He was a Salzburg native. Salzburg didn't belong to Austria at that time, was part of the same country Graf is from.

:p
All of Austria was part of Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler...

tennislover
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:05 PM
I just told the truth that you are excessively use that wound,if you want to see those archives about that 1cm wound,I will post them.
and what anyway a huge psycological trauma it is,I just say "it hasn't anying with our steffi"
only gunther+seles+seles' fans are responded to the so called psycological trauma.

you are right: Graf has nothing to do with it......

but that 1cm-wound simply made Graf the luckiest players in the history of tennis....

tennislover
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:07 PM
All of Austria was part of Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler...

But fortunately Mozart didn't not live during Hitler's hell.....

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:45 PM
All of Austria was part of Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler...


That's right. Hitler was from Austria and in 1938 he and the German Wehrmacht "took home" Austria cheered by jubilant crowds in Salzburg, Vienna, Insbruck. Pity that in Western capitals there was not Dubya or Reagan. Not even a Churchill yet.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:48 PM
you are right: Graf has nothing to do with it......

but that 1cm-wound simply made Graf the luckiest players in the history of tennis....


No, I don't think so.
Even her Daddy's scandal took more slams away for Graf than the Seles Stabbing added. And when we add Graf's ludicrous injury list to the equation Graf is one of unluckiest players ever. Behind Connolly and with Seles as a distant third (maybe even Hingis at #3).

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:51 PM
But fortunately Mozart didn't not live during Hitler's hell.....


You got a point here.
Nor did Beethoven. Or Steffi Graf.

faboozadoo15
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:52 PM
kart :kiss:
adore the new avatar ;)

alfajeffster
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:53 PM
That's right. Hitler was from Austria and in 1938 he and the German Wehrmacht "took home" Austria cheered by jubilant crowds in Salzburg, Vienna, Insbruck. Pity that in Western capitals there was not Dubya or Reagan. Not even a Churchill yet.
Do you say things like this for the shock value, or is it meant to really scare me?

P.S.- my father fought in Patton's Army in WWII and was in Nuremburg at the close of the war.

KV
Dec 3rd, 2004, 08:24 PM
I think Seles & Navi(grandma Moses) are the obssessed fans on this webboard who live in a world where reality ceases to exist lol:)What? Youi can add along M. Navratilova's singles titles a few doubles titles I guess. In case of M. Navratilova include her doubles titles and the Navratilova fans are totally realistic. As far as I'm concerned doubles is part of the game too. So I'd put M. Navratilova over S. Graf.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 09:33 PM
Do you say things like this for the shock value, or is it meant to really scare me?

P.S.- my father fought in Patton's Army in WWII and was in Nuremburg at the close of the war.



Originally Posted by alfajeffster
"All of Austria was part of Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler..."

What has Adolf to do with the question whether Salzburg was part of Austria or Germany in 1791 or not? Do you say things like that for shock value, or is it meant to really scare me?

P.S. - my father fought in Hitlers "Volkssturm" in the last weeks of his reign and was near Nuremburg at the close of the war.

Your point being?

:confused:


:wavey:

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 09:36 PM
What? Youi can add along M. Navratilova's singles titles a few doubles titles I guess. In case of M. Navratilova include her doubles titles and the Navratilova fans are totally realistic. As far as I'm concerned doubles is part of the game too. So I'd put M. Navratilova over S. Graf.


Do you think Pam Shriver would swap her tons of "doubles" slam titles for only ONE single slam title?
You bet she would.
Case closed.

Andre@
Dec 3rd, 2004, 09:38 PM
Steffi was so incredible that even the haters love her.

BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP HER YOU BIOTCHES!!!! :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:


It is sounds like the "old" GOSTEFFIGO from Old WTA Message board

irma
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:35 AM
you are right: Graf has nothing to do with it......

but that 1cm-wound simply made Graf the luckiest players in the history of tennis....
How can she have been more lucky then the player who won a title two days after or the one who won her first tier 1 a week later?
or anybody who won who won titles (or not) but played?

give me a fair answer!

Veritas
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:42 AM
Do you think Pam Shriver would swap her tons of "doubles" slam titles for only ONE single slam title?
You bet she would.
Case closed.

What on earth are you talking about? Whether Shriver would prefer a GS singles title in place of her doubles victories or not is irrelevant. The point he/she made was that Martina is not only an outstanding tennis singles player, she is also a legend on the doubles sector as well. That's why he/she sees Navratilova as a more successful player than Graf was.

Greatest
Dec 4th, 2004, 07:07 AM
because some poor people only have past for many years and have to excessively used that 1-cm wound year after year without courage to face their real reason of the poor.

1 cm wound Calimero?

Then you are in denial ... where would your goddess be in the 1990s without Gunther?

For you to not give Gunther his rightful place along with your goddess certainly takes away from your credibility on here.

The #1 player in women's tennis in the early years of the 1990s was clearly Monica Seles and there was no end in sight for that domination. :lol:

Alley
Dec 4th, 2004, 07:36 AM
The #1 player in women's tennis in the early years of the 1990s was clearly Monica Seles and there was no end in sight for that domination. :lol:
Monica Seles was #1 in large part due to the agony that Steffi Graf was put through thanks to her father and as a result the German press. During this dark period of the Queen's career she struggled with players she easily defeated before and after. Steffi was close to regaining the #1 ranking at the time of the stabbing, it was only a matter of time before it happened. Unfortunately Monica was stabbed. But unlike Steffi she didn't have the resolve to face her problems and instead became an overeating recluse who destroyed her career.

Greatest
Dec 4th, 2004, 08:11 AM
Monica Seles was #1 in large part due to the agony that Steffi Graf was put through thanks to her father and as a result the German press. During this dark period of the Queen's career she struggled with players she easily defeated before and after. Steffi was close to regaining the #1 ranking at the time of the stabbing, it was only a matter of time before it happened. Unfortunately Monica was stabbed. But unlike Steffi she didn't have the resolve to face her problems and instead became an overeating recluse who destroyed her career.


But Steffi Graf LOST her number one ranking and dominance in 1991 thru her PLAY while Monica Seles LOST her number one ranking and dominance in 1993 because of a jealous fan of her rival wanting to kill her with a knife, that is.

Big Difference... And you don't even know how pathetic you sound.

Nice Try. :lol:

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:02 PM
What on earth are you talking about? Whether Shriver would prefer a GS singles title in place of her doubles victories or not is irrelevant. The point he/she made was that Martina is not only an outstanding tennis singles player, she is also a legend on the doubles sector as well. That's why he/she sees Navratilova as a more successful player than Graf was.


And Graf was better in table tennis.

Your point being?

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:06 PM
1 cm wound Calimero?

Then you are in denial ... where would your goddess be in the 1990s without Gunther?

For you to not give Gunther his rightful place along with your goddess certainly takes away from your credibility on here.

The #1 player in women's tennis in the early years of the 1990s was clearly Monica Seles and there was no end in sight for that domination. :lol:


Where would Seles be without Nicole Meissner, Dumbo?

Seles never won Wimbledon - not in "the early years of the 1990s" or in any other time frame.
Seles lost 5 of 7 matches against Graf when she was #1.
Seles was a blip on the screen - she didn't deliver from 1994 until 2004.
A footnote only. Comparable to Courier on the men's side (no Wimbledons either).

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:09 PM
But Steffi Graf LOST her number one ranking and dominance in 1991 thru her PLAY while Monica Seles LOST her number one ranking and dominance in 1993 because of a jealous fan of her rival wanting to kill her with a knife, that is.

Big Difference... And you don't even know how pathetic you sound.

Nice Try. :lol:


Seles had luck. She would have lost the #1 spot in 1993 anyway. Graf simply was too good.
Seles had her chance in 95 and thereafter. She simply didn't deliver. Although Graf was severely hampered by tax affair and tons of injuries.
Seles lacked the talent and the stamina. A good tennis player however.But not a great one (No Wimbledons! - hey, even Martinez, Davenport and Sharapova types have one Wimby title!).

bandabou
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:22 PM
A good tennis player.....wow, cali finally said something good about a non-Graf player! :eek:

Hey Cali, the other day you said something about the Williamses being lower-class because of Pa Williams´s behaviour ...what about Pa Graf´s behaviour? Does that make Steffi Graf lower-class too?

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:25 PM
A good tennis player.....wow, cali finally said something good about a non-Graf player! :eek:

Hey Cali, the other day you said something about the Williamses being lower-class because of Pa Williams´s behaviour ...what about Pa Graf´s behaviour? Does that make Steffi Graf lower-class too?

I never said that the Williamses are lower-class, Bandyliar ...

bandabou
Dec 4th, 2004, 01:37 PM
I never said that the Williamses are lower-class, Bandyliar ...


Are we changing our tune, now? Or is it now that we compared Pa Williams to Pa Graf that you´re backpedalling on the conclusion?

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Are we changing our tune, now? Or is it now that we compared Pa Williams to Pa Graf that you´re backpedalling on the conclusion?


What about

"I never said that the Williamses are lower-class, Bandyliar ..."

you didn't grasp, Bandyliar?

bandabou
Dec 4th, 2004, 04:35 PM
What about

"I never said that the Williamses are lower-class, Bandyliar ..."

you didn't grasp, Bandyliar?

O.k...just wanted to be sure that WAS what you meant..

tennislover
Dec 4th, 2004, 05:53 PM
What? Youi can add along M. Navratilova's singles titles a few doubles titles I guess. In case of M. Navratilova include her doubles titles and the Navratilova fans are totally realistic. As far as I'm concerned doubles is part of the game too. So I'd put M. Navratilova over S. Graf.


you are the mouth of truth, mate
:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

tennislover
Dec 4th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Do you think Pam Shriver would swap her tons of "doubles" slam titles for only ONE single slam title?
You bet she would.
Case closed.

I dont think Pam ever would do that...

Calimero apart all this doubles stuff you always tend to ignore that Martina won 167 singles tournament vs about 110 won by Graf....
167-110= 57 singles tournaments......are they drivel?

tennislover
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE=Musashino]What on earth are you talking about? Whether Shriver would prefer a GS singles title in place of her doubles victories or not is irrelevant. The point he/she made was that Martina is not only an outstanding tennis singles player, she is also a legend on the doubles sector as well. That's why he/she sees Navratilova as a more successful player than Graf was.[/QUOTE



you are the mouth of truth as well, mate :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Doubles doesnt make Navi #1 all time Steffis 22 Singles slams trumps Navis 18 ok:) Steffi won every slam at least 4 times each-the ONLY male or female player to do so:) Steffi had 6 paris titles to Navis 2! Navi was the best grass court player ever but Steffi is a close 2nd there but overall Steffis record is peerless with 22 Slams,377 weeks at #1:)

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:28 PM
and of course Navi is an all time great & the best ever in doubles ok but Steffi rules overall & in singles:)

tennislover
Dec 4th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Doubles doesnt make Navi #1 all time Steffis 22 Singles slams trumps Navis 18 ok:) Steffi won every slam at least 4 times each-the ONLY male or female player to do so:) Steffi had 6 paris titles to Navis 2! Navi was the best grass court player ever but Steffi is a close 2nd there but overall Steffis record is peerless with 22 Slams,377 weeks at #1:)


fraulein i repeat: 167 SINGLES tournaments vs 110 tournaments
57 tournaments are a HUGE gap.......

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 10:40 PM
fraulein i repeat: 167 SINGLES tournaments vs 110 tournaments
57 tournaments are a HUGE gap.......


Some tourneys in the 70ies and early 80ies in U.S. provincial towns had ridiculous fields. Navi played almost every week. She did it to earn a decent living. That's the reason for her inflated record in non-slam tournaments.
Graf leads her in slams with 22-18, in year-end-#1s 8-7, in weeks as #1 377-331. IMO that trumps 167-107 tournament wins. But, yes, Navi is the only player to have a legitimate claim for best-ever next to Graf.

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Some tourneys in the 70ies and early 80ies in U.S. provincial towns had ridiculous fields. Navi played almost every week. She did it to earn a decent living. That's the reason for her inflated record in non-slam tournaments.
Graf leads her in slams with 22-18, in year-end-#1s 8-7, in weeks as #1 377-331. IMO that trumps 167-107 tournament wins. But, yes, Navi is the only player to have a legitimate claim for best-ever next to Graf.


An afterthought:
With female players we must add beauty to the equation.
And in that department Graf beats Navi by "country miles" (TM).
Legs, body, face, smile, hair - that's 5-0 for Graf.
If we combine that with slams it's 27-18 for Graf overall.
Case closed at last.

tennislover
Dec 4th, 2004, 11:31 PM
An afterthought:
With female players we must add beauty to the equation.
And in that department Graf beats Navi by "country miles" (TM).
Legs, body, face, smile, hair - that's 5-0 for Graf.
If we combine that with slams it's 27-18 for Graf overall.
Case closed at last.


don't forget to add that while Graf volleyed as naturally as fish walking on a mountain path, Martina was the perfection .....yes that's a clear point for Graf........

did you say that Graf was more beautiful than Martina????????????
What does it to do with the question about who is the best???? :topic: :topic: :topic:



shhhhhhhhhh don't tell this to anyone: Martina is coollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 12:48 AM
An afterthought:
With female players we must add beauty to the equation.
And in that department Graf beats Navi by "country miles" (TM).
Legs, body, face, smile, hair - that's 5-0 for Graf.
If we combine that with slams it's 27-18 for Graf overall.
Case closed at last.


It's so amazing when you consider how many Grand Slam singles events Evert and Navratilova have won ... especially when you consider that the #1 player in women's tennis was never stabbed in the back with a knife when Evert or Navratilova were ranked #2. :lol:

Veritas
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:06 AM
And Graf was better in table tennis.

Huh?

Your point being?

I know you have a knack for statistics, so here's one:

Doubles titles:
- Graf: 11.
- Navratilova: 174.

Doubles W-L:
- Graf: 173-72 (70.61% Winning %).
- Navratilova: 667-102 (86.74% Winning %).

Singles titles:
- Graf: 107.
- Navratilova: 167.

Singles W-L:
- Graf: 900-115 (88.67% Winning %).
- Navratilova: 1440-213 (87.11% Winning %).

Add them all together:

- Graf has 118 trophies.
- Navratilova has 341 trophies.

- Graf has a total W-L record in singles and doubles of 1073-187 (85.16% Winning %).
- Navratilova has a total W-L record in singles and doubles of 2107-315 (86.99% Winning %).

I suspect that's what KV meant when he/she said that Martina is more successful in being a versatile player than Graf was.

Oh, and interestingly, their H2H record is tied at 9-9 :)

Veritas
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:28 AM
If we combine that with slams it's 27-18 for Graf overall.

What? It's 22-18 Singles trophies in Graf's favour.

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:36 AM
and of course Navi is an all time great & the best ever in doubles ok but Steffi rules overall & in singles:)

It is true that Navratilova won an all-time record 9 singles titles at Wimbledon.

It is also true that Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam singles matches played (overall AND during the 1990s when Navratilova was in her mid 30s).

It is also true that Navratilova had a winning record at the 5th biggest event in women's tennis, the WTA Tour Championships.

Seems Navratilova had a 4-1 winning edge vs. Graf at the U.S. Open as well.
--------------------------------------------
The all-time record 9 singles titles to go with an 11 doubles titles for 20 Wimbledon titles .

But, of course, this was not the ONLY tournament in which Navratilova excelled at ... Navratilova also has the all-time record for most singles titles at the WTA Championships.

How many of the 5 majors -- Wimbledon, U.S. Open, French Open, Australian Open and WTA Championships -- does Graf have the all-time record in for most singles titles?

Navratilova has the all-time record in 2 of these 5 events -- most singles titles (and probably most overall titles including singles and doubles) at Wimbledon and the WTA Tour Championships.

How about Graf? Even with the stabbing of the TRUE #1 Monica Seles by one of her jealous fans, Graf does not have an all-time record for most singles titles at ANY of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

And Graf was greater than Navratilova in singles? :confused:


:lol:

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:39 AM
Huh?



I know you have a knack for statistics, so here's one:

Doubles titles:
- Graf: 11.
- Navratilova: 174.

Doubles W-L:
- Graf: 173-72 (70.61% Winning %).
- Navratilova: 667-102 (86.74% Winning %).

Singles titles:
- Graf: 107.
- Navratilova: 167.

Singles W-L:
- Graf: 900-115 (88.67% Winning %).
- Navratilova: 1440-213 (87.11% Winning %).

Add them all together:

- Graf has 118 trophies.
- Navratilova has 341 trophies.

- Graf has a total W-L record in singles and doubles of 1073-187 (85.16% Winning %).
- Navratilova has a total W-L record in singles and doubles of 2107-315 (86.99% Winning %).

I suspect that's what KV meant when he/she said that Martina is more successful in being a versatile player than Graf was.

Oh, and interestingly, their H2H record is tied at 9-9 :)


Here we are a decade later remembering that Navratilova has the ALL-TIME record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis. No other player in women's tennis can claim this --- the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Australian ------------- Margaret Court
French ----------------- Chris Evert
Wimbledon ------------ Martina Navratilova
U.S. Open -------------- Molla Bjurstedt Mallory
WTA Championships --- Martina Navratilova

Yet, Graf does not hold the singles record at ANY of these even with the TRUE #1 Seles being stabbed in the back by one of Steffi's fans.

:lol:

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:48 AM
Huh?


Oh, and interestingly, their H2H record is tied at 9-9 :)


Graf never .... she NEVER .... had a winning record vs. Navratilova for her career. The funny thing is ... Graf never had a winning record vs. Navratilova when you limit it to ONLY the 1990s decade when Navratilova was in her mid to upper 30s.

Navratilova had a singles career of essentially 20 years ... she never had a losing record in her career vs. Graf ... and Graf only had those 2 or 3 years in the late 1980s with a better record head to head vs. Navratilova ... Navratilova had the edge early in their rivalry ... Graf had those 2 or 3 good years ... then, in the 1990s when Navratilova was in her mid to upper 30s Navratilova had the edge in 1990-1993 until Graf got that one last win in during 1994 to draw herself even with Navratilova FINALLY.

Navratilova turned 34 in 1990.
Navratilova turned 35 in 1991.
Navratilova turned 36 in 1992.
Navratilova turned 37 in 1993.

Steffi's wins over Navratilova were either in Navratilova's 30s or in the year she turned 30. Of course, Navratilova had 7 wins out of those 16 matches vs. Graf during those years when Navratilova was in her 30s or in the year in which Navratilova turned 30.

Veritas
Dec 5th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Monica Seles was #1 in large part due to the agony that Steffi Graf was put through thanks to her father and as a result the German press. During this dark period of the Queen's career she struggled with players she easily defeated before and after. Steffi was close to regaining the #1 ranking at the time of the stabbing, it was only a matter of time before it happened. Unfortunately Monica was stabbed. But unlike Steffi she didn't have the resolve to face her problems and instead became an overeating recluse who destroyed her career.

But has Graf ever been sidelined for 2 years?

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 02:00 AM
fraulein i repeat: 167 SINGLES tournaments vs 110 tournaments
57 tournaments are a HUGE gap.......


Navratilova and her record 9 consecutive years with 10 or more singles titles:

1978 11
1979 10
1980 11
1981 10
1982 15
1983 16
1984 13
1985 12
1986 14

167 singles titles .. with 18 years having 4 or more singles titles.

And she had 162 doubles titles.

Imagine for a minute winning over 160 titles in both singles and doubles. ;)

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:45 AM
Steffi DID HAVE A WINNING RECORD VS Monica 10-5 though & her record against NAVI was 9-9 not losing either...even Steffi lost to her twice in 85 as a 16 year old twice in 86 as a 17 year old ...basically what Im saying is they never played each other when they were both at the peaks of their games.....that would have been a defining answer there but Steffi had 107 titles retiring at 30.....Navi played singles until she was 37 hence the extra 60 titles in singles......When Steffi played doubles she was good a Wimby title with Gaby & 2 French Open finals in doubles with Gaby too but she concentrated on singles.....Steffi DID knock Navi out of #1 & Navratilova never regained it.....Monica did knock Steffi out of #1 but Steffi regained it ...with or without the stabbing Steffi would have regained it..Steffi is unique because she played so many generations of champions(Grand Slam) & beat them all & had winning or even records against them all....... Monica(10-5),Venus(2-1),Navi (9-9) Evert (8-6) Davenport(8-6) Hingis(7-2)(Steffi dominated Hingis while Seles beat her very few times)Austin(1-1)Gaby(29-11)Arantxa(26-8)Jana(24-3) Jennifer (12-1) even Serena(1-1) she beat Kim & Momo too,Hana(7-1)...also too Steffi(only player in history) did wins 4 times each at every time Slam something no one else will ever do again I doubt ..a gold & silver medalist too & 377 weeks at #1..yes Evert & Navi are all time greats too as Seles but Steffis achievements are PEERLESS & she is the greatest player of all time..& Navis record in Paris is too weak 2 wins compared to Steffis six & Seles has 0 wins at Wimby but anyways Steffi reigns supreme #1 forever:)