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Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 08:28 AM
Women's tennis changed dramatically 11 years ago, altered forever in the middle of an otherwise ordinary match by a man with a knife.

World Number One Monica Seles was resting during a changeover at the Hamburg Open on April 30, 1993. She had gone through hundreds of them in a career that had taken her to the top of women's tennis.

This one was not routine.

The 19-year-old winner of six Grand Slam titles in the previous two years was towelling off in a chair, catching her breath for the next game against Magdalena Maleeva. She had been sidelined for more than two months with a viral infection. She would have to pace herself in a match she was leading 6-4, 4-3.

Then, in an instant, Seles felt a sharp pain in her back.

Guenter Parche had made his way through the stands to courtside. With no one stopping him, the German came up behind Seles and plunged a knife into her back, just below her left shoulder blade.

Seles screamed and collapsed, her face contorted by shock and pain. Aides rushed to her and she was taken to Hamburg Hospital.

``Never mind the personal implications, the life-altering event that was,'' Martina Navratilova said. ``It changed the course of tennis history. We'll never know what she might have been, how many more slams she would have won.''

The attack reverberated across sports. Players became more wary of fans, teams and organisers were forced to re-examine security arrangements.

Would I change? Yeah, I wish I didn't get stabbed and played and competed at the highest level for those few years.'' Seles said.

Parche was obsessed with World Number Two Steffi Graf, who was competing with Seles for the top spot in women's tennis. By injuring Seles, he reasoned, he would give Graf an edge.

He was right about that.

Navratilova had Chris Evert to create one of the great rivalries in sports. But Graf never really had Seles, who arrived on the scene after Graf swept the four Grand Slam tournaments in 1988.

Seles was the No. 1 player when she was attacked. She had won the Australian, French and U.S. Open titles in each of the previous two years. There had been three straight Australian crowns after Graf had won three in a row there. Seles had won 30 singles titles in just five years, eight of them Grand Slams.

Then Parche struck.

The knife wound healed quickly. The psychological injury took far longer.

Seles was off the court for 27 months. Friends and players tried to help her, Navratilova among them.

"We were good enough friends before,'' she said. ``I wanted to be there for her. I was there to ease her concerns and her fears. I don't know if I could or if I would want to step on the court after something like that.

"We hit. We talked. We visited. The longer she stayed away, the more I thought she would stay away. I wasn't sure at first that she would be back. The more she put it off, the harder I thought it would be for her.''

Slowly, Seles regained her confidence.

"She had an emotional trauma,'' Navratilova said. ``Nobody had ever gone through it. This never happened before. She was in uncharted territory. It makes you grow up faster than you want.''

Finally, there was a ballyhooed exhibition against Navratilova in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Seles was so nervous she double-faulted on the first point but went on to win. Then, in August 1995, she played the Canadian Open in Toronto.

Seles cruised through that U.S. Open warmup, never dropping a set. It was vintage Seles.

Or was it?

Her tennis was topflight. Her frame of mind was not.

``There are flashbacks,'' she said. ``On long points, I start thinking. Then I tell myself, `You can't do this. You're in a match. Just go out and play great tennis.' Reality is still there. I can't forget that. The reality is it happened. It will always be there.''

Less than a month later, Seles reached the U.S. Open final against Graf, losing 7-6(6), 0-6, 6-3. She went on to win a fourth Australian title in 1996 but has reached just two other Grand Slam finals since — losing the U.S. Open in 1996 and the French Open in 1998, three weeks after the death of her father.

She has had injuries from shoulder to knee. At 30 she is no longer a dominant player. She has never played in Germany again.

When Parche went on trial, she sent a letter to be read to the court.

``I only want proper justice,'' she wrote. ``This attack has tremendously and irreparably damaged my life (and) stopped my tennis career. I was a 19-year-old girl when he stabbed me. He has not been successful in his attempt to kill me, but he has destroyed my life.''

Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 08:35 AM
Exactly eleven years ago in Hamburg, Germany, she was on her way to becoming the greatest women's player ever. And then, at an ordinary crossover in her match that day, she felt the awful pain in her back and turned around and, for just an instant, saw the face of a madman as he prepared to plunge the knife into her again. Someone rushed over and stopped him. Monica slumped to the ground, alive -- just -- the blade having cut within an inch of her life. But she was never the same again, not as an athlete, not as a person.

No one had been more of a free spirit, either. More than a decade ago, Teddy Tinling, the late dress designer, the keeper of the flame of women's tennis, liked to say that the sport was doomed to perish from avarice, that it was in the last opera of Wagner's Ring -- the twilight of the goddesses -- but that the wonderful little girl from Yugoslavia, who grunted when she hit the bejesus out of the ball, would breathe fresh life into the sport and save it.

And for the three years from the time she won her first major title until the German's knife drove into her, Seles won eight of the 12 Grand Slams -- completely dominating her rivals on the women's tour. The assassin changed history. Absent him, Monica was the best ever. Until . . .The horror is all the worse that it was a jealous fan of her rival who almost killed Seles.

Monica finally returned to professional tennis after two and a half years. She even won one more Grand Slam -- the Australian Open, in '96. And then her father, Karoly, whom she adored, fell ill with cancer and died in 1998. Even as a little girl, Monica had always been the strength of the family. After all, it was not easy for her parents to move to America, to a new life, in middle age. It was a little girl who led them. She was steel.

Yet as strong a person as she is, Seles will probably never win another major championship. Who even knows how much longer she will play? She's still only 30, but so wise and grown-up -- and so admired. Everybody in tennis adores Monica. The younger players look up to her. Monica Seles is a heroine.

After eleven long years, it's simply worth stating that.

The worst thing that ever happened on a field of play happened to her that day eleven Aprils ago. Somehow, as much attention as the tragedy received, it has never been appreciated to the depth that it deserves. It was a very big deal, and it changed the course of a sport, as it destroyed a champion. Monica Seles has overcome, though, and she has thrived, and if there is any justice at all, the next eleven years will be glorious for her.

Je_ne_sais_quoi
Dec 1st, 2004, 08:46 AM
Poor Moni..:sad: :sad: :sad:

Grohl
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:03 AM
still shocks me everytime I read about it

Greatest
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:07 AM
After eleven long years, it's simply worth stating that.

The worst thing that ever happened on a field of play happened to her that day eleven Aprils ago. Somehow, as much attention as the tragedy received, it has never been appreciated to the depth that it deserves. It was a very big deal, and it changed the course of a sport, as it destroyed a champion. Monica Seles has overcome, though, and she has thrived, and if there is any justice at all, the next eleven years will be glorious for her.

http://digilander.libero.it/ander75/moni/lenglen.jpg



"No one really saw what happened. People only started reacting after this piercing scream,'' recalls Jens-Peter Hecht, at the time the spokesman of the German tennis federation, DTB.

"When I looked down the security people were wrestling someone down. Monica Seles had jumped up (from her chair), someone leaped across and threw a towel over her back".

It was only then that we realised she had been attacked,'' Hecht says. A political background was not ruled out at first, as the Balkan war was ongoing and Seles was a Yugoslav.

But it it soon became obvious that Parche had acted in an effort to help his idol Steffi Graf back to the top of women's tennis from which Seles had dethroned her in 1991.

"We had the impression that she (Graf) was the most important person for him. He worshipped her. The defendant said on several occasions that he would do anything for her,'' said psychologists in their report to Hamburg prosecutors afterwards.

"When Seles became No. 1 he decided to take concrete action for Steffi Graf. He wanted to `teach Monica Seles a lesson'.

He decided to injure her with a knife in the game with Maleeva. He didn't want to stab her in the head but couldn't reach her arm. That's why he stabbed her in the back,'' the report

"It took away some of the best years of my tennis career, that's for sure. To tell the truth, it's still very strange to me. I'm the only person in sports that this ever happened to,'' Seles told Tennis magazine.

wateva
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:35 AM
sad sad tale... the world is so unfair...

Greatest
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:47 AM
sad sad tale... the world is so unfair...

Before the stabbing


Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won (90%) of the major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%)
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%)



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking


Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 --- Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - --Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 --- Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 --- Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - --Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

Seles LOST her number one ranking due to inactivity on June 06, 1993 after the horrible stabbing by a jealous Graf fan.

Steffi Graf challenged for the top ranking twice in 1991 BUT was only capable of holding to it at the maximum (three weeks). Ultimately, the german LOST the battle to Seles and happily settled at number two

Then...Enter Gunther Pache.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:51 AM
Before the stabbing


Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won (90%) of the major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%)
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%)



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking


Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 --- Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - --Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 --- Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 --- Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - --Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

Seles LOST her number one ranking due to inactivity on June 06, 1993 after the horrible stabbing by a jealous Graf fan.

Steffi Graf challenged for the top ranking twice in 1991 BUT was only capable of holding to it at the maximum (three weeks). Ultimately, the german LOST the battle to Seles and happily settled at number two

Then...Enter Gunther Pache.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is quite clear.

Seles won about 15% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did.

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did on all surfaces other than grass.

Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:52 AM
Before the stabbing


Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won (90%) of the major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%)
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%)



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking


Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 --- Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - --Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 --- Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 --- Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - --Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

Seles LOST her number one ranking due to inactivity on June 06, 1993 after the horrible stabbing by a jealous Graf fan.

Steffi Graf challenged for the top ranking twice in 1991 BUT was only capable of holding to it at the maximum (three weeks). Ultimately, the german LOST the battle to Seles and happily settled at number two

Then...Enter Gunther Pache.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It is quite clear.

Seles won about 15% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did.

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did on all surfaces other than grass.

kabuki
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:24 AM
I miss Monica. :sad:

Greatest
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:32 AM
It is quite clear.

Seles won about 15% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did.

Seles had the better winning percentage than Graf did on all surfaces other than grass.

It took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

Evert and Navratilova never relied on their fans stabbing each other in the back with knives for them to have success.

Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. Nationals.
Evert has the all-time record for most U.S. Opens.
Evert has the all-time record for most French titles.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles.
Navratilova has the record for most WTA Championships.
Wills Moody has the all-time record for most years at #1.
Wills Moody has the record for most Slams on grass.
Evert has the all-time record for most Slams on clay.

Graf had a very balanced resume after Seles was out. :lol:

jenny161185
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:36 AM
this amkes me so sad its like sometimes ppl forget what actually happened and how brave Monica Seles is to ever even pick up a tennis racket let alone win a grand slam after this horrific incident. This is the reason why I want Monica to play a few more matches because I want her to call it quits on her own terms not on some as*holes like Gunther Pache.

Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:53 AM
this amkes me so sad its like sometimes ppl forget what actually happened and how brave Monica Seles is to ever even pick up a tennis racket let alone win a grand slam after this horrific incident. This is the reason why I want Monica to play a few more matches because I want her to call it quits on her own terms not on some as*holes like Gunther Pache.

Thanks Jenny :)

Monica Seles may have "only" won one more Grand Slam title after her return in 1995, and she may not have dominated like she once did, but I think she achieved something even greater just by coming back.

Let's not forget that on the day she was stabbed, had Parche actually succeeded in his intentions, she would have been murdered. Thankfully, his aim was not impeccable, and Monica lived. But what a terrible, traumatic thought---that if someone had had his way, you would be dead.

Just by coming back in 1995 and trying to pick up the pieces of her life again, I think she won the "Grand Slam of Life". Everything after that........titles, being #1, Grand Slams, 3-set wins or losses.......really just doesn't seem all that monumental. :)

tennislover
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:55 AM
great job, guys......
we must not forget what happened..........
very sad story.....

Great Seles
Dec 1st, 2004, 12:03 PM
great job, guys......
we must not forget what happened..........
very sad story.....


The violent stabbing of Monica Seles was a horrible senseless crime unprecedented in sports history and completely changed the course of a sport.

Some people may seem to think that because one can't change things we should act like it never happened.....

:)

Greatest
Dec 1st, 2004, 01:17 PM
this amkes me so sad its like sometimes ppl forget what actually happened and how brave Monica Seles is to ever even pick up a tennis racket let alone win a grand slam after this horrific incident. This is the reason why I want Monica to play a few more matches because I want her to call it quits on her own terms not on some as*holes like Gunther Pache.



I would love to see Monica Seles come back out there and play lights out like she did in those years 1990-1993 for just 1 more year or 2.

AlexB
Dec 1st, 2004, 04:46 PM
those first two posts were awsome...monica seles was my favorite tennis player growing up and that article brought back memories, both good and bad...to this day everytime somebody wins in 40 minutes i always call it "doing a monica seles" because as a teenager thats what i most remembered about her

tennislover
Dec 1st, 2004, 09:23 PM
The violent stabbing of Monica Seles was a horrible senseless crime unprecedented in sports history and completely changed the course of a sport.

Some people may seem to think that because one can't change things we should act like it never happened.....

:)

so true....

Calimero377
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:00 PM
Before the stabbing


Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.



Before The Stabbing Graf had won 71 titles, 4 Wimbledons, 1 Grand Slam, Dumbo ....

How many titles, Wimbledons, Grand Slams has Seles ever won?

:lol:

Calimero377
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:04 PM
Thanks Jenny :)

Monica Seles may have "only" won one more Grand Slam title after her return in 1995, and she may not have dominated like she once did, but I think she achieved something even greater just by coming back.
.... :)

Yes, that's really unique.
Whenever has someone returned to his job already 2.25 years after having received a stab wound?
:worship: :worship: :worship:

DA FOREHAND
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:04 PM
05 Us OPen the day it rained all day?

Calimero377
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:05 PM
The violent stabbing of Monica Seles was a horrible senseless crime unprecedented in sports history and completely changed the course of a sport.

Some people may seem to think that because one can't change things we should act like it never happened.....

:)


I think the Graf Media Scandal in 1990 changed the sport of tennis far more.
Without it Seles would have won about 4 slams maximum.

Calimero377
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:07 PM
I would love to see Monica Seles come back out there and play lights out like she did in those years 1990-1993 for just 1 more year or 2.


I would love to see Steffi Graf come back out of retirement and play lights out like she did in those years 1986-1996 (and 1999) for just 1 more year or 2. Would be more realistic.

Geisha
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:09 PM
Before The Stabbing Graf had won 71 titles, 4 Wimbledons, 1 Grand Slam, Dumbo ....

How many titles, Wimbledons, Grand Slams has Seles ever won?

:lol:

I think the previous statistics have already showed that Steffi was less dominant then Monica, when Monica began playing tennis. A Grand Slam is an amazing feat, but if anybody had only won a Grand Slam once, then they weren't very consistent in other years.

Monica has more wins, better winning percentage, better percentage of titles won, more Australian-French-US Opens, less Wimbledon. Statistics don't lie.

DA FOREHAND
Dec 1st, 2004, 10:24 PM
"A Grand Slam is an amazing feat, but if anybody had only won a Grand Slam once, then they weren't very consistent in other years."


Therefore those who never won a Grand Slam, are very inconsistant.

Frank Riley
Dec 1st, 2004, 11:01 PM
Tennis had its darkest day, the last day Anna Kournikova walked away from the WTA never to return. After that day the tennis world has become darker and less interesting. :tape:

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:23 AM
"A Grand Slam is an amazing feat, but if anybody had only won a Grand Slam once, then they weren't very consistent in other years."


Therefore those who never won a Grand Slam, are very inconsistant.


NOT during the time when Seles and Graf were both playing these Grand Slam events.

Seles' first Grand Slam singles tournament was the 1989 French. Between the 1989 French Open and the stabbing of Monica Seles in the back with a knife because she was winning too much for a Steffi Graf fan to tolerate:

16 Grand Slam singles titles ... Seles won 8, Graf won just 5. :lol:
4 WTA Tour Championships .. Seles won 3, Graf won just 1. :lol:

TOTALS: Seles won 11 majors and Graf won just 6 in the time between Seles beginning to compete at the Grand Slam events (beginning with the 1989 French Open) and the horrific stabbing of the #1 ranked teen phenom, Monica Seles, in the back with a knife by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:25 AM
Before The Stabbing Graf had won 71 titles, 4 Wimbledons, 1 Grand Slam, Dumbo ....

How many titles, Wimbledons, Grand Slams has Seles ever won?

:lol:


How much did the Gunther Parche part win? :lol:

Great Seles
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:42 AM
Gunther Parche was a sick man. But make no mistake about it --- he did the stabbing of Monica Seles for the BENEFIT of Steffi Graf, the #2 ranked woman at the time.

Obviously, the sick man Gunther Parche made the correct decision in terms of accomplishing what he wanted to. In the risk vs. reward consideration, Parche accomplished all that he could have ever hoped for in the stabbing and more with very little downside risk. He got off legally .. and yet he took the #1 ranking and the tremendous momentum away from Monica Seles.

After the stabbing of the world's number one female tennis player...

Second ranked Graf won the French Open 6 weeks later after Seles had won this event the 3 previous years (all as a teenager) ...

then, Graf went on to win the U.S. Open 3 months later after Seles had won the U.S. Open the 2 previous years (again, as a teenager) ...

then, 9 months after the stabbing, Graf won the Australian Open after Seles had won this event the 3 previous years (all as a teenager).

For the first time since 1990, Graf won 10 singles titles in 1993 -- although at the end of April 1990 when the Seles stabbing took place, Graf had on won 1 singles title in the year 1993.

Alley
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:07 AM
Seles fans need to GET OVER IT. The history books will always exhibit that Steffi Graf's glorious record breaking career will forever overshadow the career of Monica Seles. Fanatical Seles lovers will always try to diminsh the Greatness of Steffi Graf, but RESULTS can never be changed. When faced with adversity Monica Seles 'milked the stabbing' (as Mary Carrillo ) stated. She wasted years of her career by becoming an overweight shadow of her former self. That is the true story of Monica Seles. How Sad.

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:22 AM
Seles fans need to GET OVER IT. The history books will always exhibit that Steffi Graf's glorious record breaking career will forever overshadow the career of Monica Seles. Fanatical Seles lovers will always try to diminsh the Greatness of Steffi Graf, but RESULTS can never be changed. When faced with adversity Monica Seles 'milked the stabbing' (as Mary Carrillo ) stated. She wasted years of her career by becoming an overweight shadow of her former self. That is the true story of Monica Seles. How Sad.

Maybe you haven't watched the TV Special on Graf's crowning glory on ESPN Century. Even in the GRANDEST Tribute of her tennis career, the Seles Tragedy was the central point of discussion... on how it changed the course of women's tennis history and how it majorly impacted both the careers of Steffi and Monica. It clearly OVERSHADOWED Steffi's tennis.

The asterisk behind Graf's tennis career that is Monica Seles will NEVER EVER go away.

Okay, Let's hear the TRUTH on what Mary Carillo have to say :

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "Nobody is as good a match player as Monica Seles. I'm not counting her out!"

1993

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "Monica also says that she never watches matches of herself play, and I think that is absolute genius. Because if she saw what she did, as she does in this point – a full-bodied swing from half-court for a winner – if she saw that, if she watched any video of her own thing, I think she'd look at the screen and go, 'AAAAAAAACK! What am I doing?! How could I try that?!' "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Cliff Drysdale: "Seles played fifteen tournaments last year, she won ten of them, she played four Finals [of those she didn't win]…Tremendous record, tremendous consistency from Monica Seles. Number one player in the world.

Cliff Drysdale: "You got that right! No question!"

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "That was a 92-mile-an-hour serve from Steffi, and I'd like to have gotten the radar on the return of serve. It was stronger."


1993 Australian Open Final

Cliff Drysdale: "Graf has won eleven grand slam championships."

Mary Carillo: "Seles has played 20 less but she's already won seven of them."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "How much can you say about this woman? She is a remarkable - she has that remarkable instinct, when under the gun, when under pressure, to attack. She's got the instincts of a doberman. You know, when confronted, she attacks. It's the natural thing for her to do. I just, as I say, I've never seen her like before. I've seen great players, obviously, great champions. But time and again we've seen Monica in trouble, we've seen her play less than her best tennis, and in the end, I mean, she just basically says, 'All right, gimme the ball, gimme the ball.' And she hits winners. It's great stuff."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

2002

Pat McEnroe: "It's funny, Dick, you talked about what could have been with Monica. You look at her record, when she won Roland Garros in 1990…when she started in ‘91, the run, she won the Australian, she won Roland Garros again, didn't play Wimbledon, won the U.S. Open. Ninety-two: Won the Australian again, won Roland Garros, got to the Finals of Wimbledon, won the United States Open. Went down to Australia again, won there, and then was stabbed. Now –"

Dick Enberg: "How great would she have been in terms of her Grand Slam titles? And with all the misfortune, including the loss of her father and coach, at a young age for him, I think she has matured as well as any tennis player that I've encountered in the last couple decades."

Mary Carillo: I've never seen someone better than Monica Seles."

EVERYONE in Tennis knows that Mary Carillo has a LOT of RESPECT and GENUINE ADMIRATION for Monica Seles both as a tennis champion and as person.

Nice try.... :lol:

vicky116
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:41 AM
see the picture attached below, its the picture of her back just after the stabbing!!!

its terrible. :sad:

Alley
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:45 AM
Maybe you haven't watched the TV Special on Graf's crowning glory on ESPN Century. Even in the GRANDEST Tribute of her tennis career, the Seles Tragedy was the central point of discussion... on how it changed the course of women's tennis history and how it majorly impacted both the career of Steffi and Monica. It clearly OVERSHADOWED Steffi's tennis.

The asterisk behind Graf's tennis career that is Monica Seles will NEVER EVER go away.

First of all I would never watch any Graf bio done by ESPN.The fact is that Seles was not even Graf's most difficult opponent. Sabatini and Martina Nav gave Graf much more difficulty than Seles. Anyways arguing this topic is useless because no one is going to change their opinion. I'll go watch a great Graf Wimbledon final victory. Or perhaps i'll watch the 93 Hamburg semis between Graf and Novotna, exciting match, packed stadium, great tennis.

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:47 AM
see the picture attached below, its the picture of her back just after the stabbing!!!

its terrible. :sad:

That's why PEOPLE will NEVER EVER forget what happened in April 30, 1993.

Greatest
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:55 AM
First of all I would never watch any Graf bio done by ESPN.The fact is that Seles was not even Graf's most difficult opponent. Sabatini and Martina Nav gave Graf much more difficulty than Seles. Anyways arguing this topic is useless because no one is going to change their opinion. I'll go watch a great Graf Wimbledon final victory. Or perhaps i'll watch the 93 Hamburg semis between Graf and Novotna, exciting match, packed stadium, great tennis.

http://digilander.libero.it/ander75/moni/lenglen.jpg


I'm pretty sure you enjoy watching Steffi win all those Parche CONTAMINATED Slams and weeks at number one. :lol:

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 22 and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

Nice new screename btw..less more fanatical I should say :lol:

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:09 PM
http://digilander.libero.it/ander75/moni/lenglen.jpg


I'm pretty sure you enjoy watching Steffi win all those Parche CONTAMINATED Slams and weeks at number one. :lol:

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 22 and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

Nice new screename btw..less more fanatical I should say :lol:


"......those Parche contaminated Slams.........."
the right words in the right time.......

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:12 PM
Yes, that's really unique.
Whenever has someone returned to his job already 2.25 years after having received a stab wound?
:worship: :worship: :worship:

Calimero,
people are human beings, they are not "machines" that can be fixed in a couple of days or weeks

Doggy
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:25 PM
It makes me wanna cry thinking how unfair this was to seles

LDVTennis
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:34 PM
Seles fans post stuff like this and yet there are people on this board who have the audacity to tell me that I can always ignore it.

By the way Great Seles, who do you work for? IMG? Betsy Nagelsen? Or the estate of Mark McKormack? Because only people associated with them would be capable of this kind of propaganda.

Or, is your life so pathetic that somehow they got you to do this for free?

bandabou
Dec 2nd, 2004, 08:54 PM
Yeah, yeah...it was a dramatic event. Career-altening, traumatic, etc...but ENOUGH already. You canīt change history...and like it or not, life DOES go on.

You canīt keep blaming Selesīs misfortunes on the stabbing forever....she DID come back, but wether be it due to post-trauma, opponents improving and becoming better, fact is that she couldnīt reproduce the magic...period.

Maybe it just wasnīt meant to be for Seles...īcause remember: everything that happens in oneīs life thereīs a reason for it...heck, even Jesus Christ was crucified, soo...

It was a sad day for sure, the stabbing, but now itīs time to move on and stop all this denigrading.....because yeah, we can say that Steffi wouldnīt have won that many majors, etc...but to say that she and Parche were the greatest combo.....now that is just offensive.

Steffi even before Monica came into the picture, Steffi was already a legend.....golden slam, almost winning the grand slam two years running, etc..so her legacy was already secured.

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:48 PM
guys, i'm sorry for you, but this affair Graf-Seles is still an open wound.....

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 09:56 PM
I think the previous statistics have already showed that Steffi was less dominant then Monica, when Monica began playing tennis. A Grand Slam is an amazing feat, but if anybody had only won a Grand Slam once, then they weren't very consistent in other years.

Monica has more wins, better winning percentage, better percentage of titles won, more Australian-French-US Opens, less Wimbledon. Statistics don't lie.


Steffi had more wins, better winning percentage, better percentage of titles won, more French-Wimbledon-US Opens, same Australians. Statistics don't lie.

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:02 PM
NOT during the time when Seles and Graf were both playing these Grand Slam events. ...

When both played these Grand Slam events
- Seles won FO 90, AO 91, FO 91, USO 91, FO 92, USO 92 and AO 93 (7),
-Graf won Wim 89, USO 89, Wim 92, USO 95, FO 96, Wim 96, USO 96, FO 99 (8).

And Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles.
3-2 before Seles became #1, 5-2 when Seles was #1 and 2-1 after Seles was #1.

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:05 PM
[B]Maybe you haven't watched the TV Special on Graf's crowning glory on ESPN Century. Even in the GRANDEST Tribute of her tennis career, the Seles Tragedy was the central point of discussion...


Seles is from the U.S, Graf is not.
ESPN is a U.S. TV station ...

Calimero377
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:08 PM
guys, i'm sorry for you, but this affair Graf-Seles is still an open wound.....


Only for rabid Selesians.
People from yesterday ...

tennislover
Dec 2nd, 2004, 10:31 PM
Seles is from the U.S, Graf is not.
ESPN is a U.S. TV station ...

you can say the same for Graf......
all that idolatric passion for Graf is something 90% German, believe me....

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:46 AM
Only for rabid Selesians.
People from yesterday ...

Does this ring a bell, tiny Calimero?

" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------Second ranked Steffi Graf.......
after her DEMORALIZING loss to World Number One Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993....... :lol:


Gunther Parche figured out the ONLY way to beat her.



.

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 08:00 AM
Yeah, yeah...it was a dramatic event. Career-altening, traumatic, etc...but ENOUGH already. You canīt change history...and like it or not, life DOES go on.

You canīt keep blaming Selesīs misfortunes on the stabbing forever....she DID come back, but wether be it due to post-trauma, opponents improving and becoming better, fact is that she couldnīt reproduce the magic...period.

Maybe it just wasnīt meant to be for Seles...īcause remember: everything that happens in oneīs life thereīs a reason for it...heck, even Jesus Christ was crucified, soo...



It was meant Bandabou? A person who thinks that it was "MEANT TO BE" that Seles be VIOLENTLY stabbed with a 9 inch knife probably ORDERED it.

Am I correct Bandabou?

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 08:04 AM
Yeah, yeah...it was a dramatic event. Career-altening, traumatic, etc...but ENOUGH already. You canīt change history...and like it or not, life DOES go on.

You canīt keep blaming Selesīs misfortunes on the stabbing forever....she DID come back, but wether be it due to post-trauma, opponents improving and becoming better, fact is that she couldnīt reproduce the magic...period.




Was the horse Connolly rode a fan of Doris Hart of any other player of the early 1950s who could personally benefit from the horse causing Connolly's injury?

Was Austin's back trouble caused by a fan of Evert or Navratilova plunging a knife deep into Austin's back?

No ... a Graf fan STABBING Seles in the back is a misfortune for Seles ... but who was the beneficiary?

Hard to say with any credibility that the ACTUAL CAUSES of Connolly's horseriding accident -- or Austin's back troubles -- were fans of the players ranked below them.

What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 10:31 AM
Was the horse Connolly rode a fan of Doris Hart of any other player of the early 1950s who could personally benefit from the horse causing Connolly's injury?

Was Austin's back trouble caused by a fan of Evert or Navratilova plunging a knife deep into Austin's back?

No ... a Graf fan STABBING Seles in the back is a misfortune for Seles ... but who was the beneficiary?

Hard to say with any credibility that the ACTUAL CAUSES of Connolly's horseriding accident -- or Austin's back troubles -- were fans of the players ranked below them.

What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.


There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

BeautifulGirl
Dec 3rd, 2004, 10:41 AM
It was meant Bandabou? A person who thinks that it was "MEANT TO BE" that Seles be VIOLENTLY stabbed with a 9 inch knife probably ORDERED it.

Am I correct Bandabou?

this banbabou is a weirdo. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: he is always stalking masha in her threads. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 10:58 AM
And Graf is 10-5 H2H against Seles.
3-2 before Seles became #1, 5-2 when Seles was #1 and 2-1 after Seles was #1.

10-5? You are counting Parche's historic accomplishments?

Before the STABBING, Graf won her first three matches against Monica (when Monica was 15 and sixteen) , and the proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT FOUR OF SEVEN.......and the number one ranking..... :lol:

Enter Gunther Parche.

Nice Try :lol:

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 11:19 AM
10-5? You are counting Parche's historic accomplishments?

Before the STABBING, Graf won her first three matches against Monica (when Monica was 15 and sixteen) , and the proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT FOUR OF SEVEN.......and the number one ranking..... :lol:

Enter Gunther Parche.

Nice Try :lol:

It was 6-4 before the STABBING..

And keep in mind, Seles in the years 1989-1993 (each year) she was a teenager while Graf was SUPPOSED to be this great veteran female player ...

If Seles had won any 1 of those 6 matches that she lost (including when she was 14-15 years old or whatever young age she was when she first played Graf) the record pre-stabbing would have been 5-5.

The stabbing, incidentally, was not over 1 match ... the stabbing was over the #1 ranking and the fact that Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis over a sustained 2.5 year period with no end in sight ... Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in 1990 ... then, she was the ONLY player, obviously, to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in 1991 and she was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in 1992 ... and, she was the only player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before the stabbing took place. Seles had relegated Graf to only winning the singles title at Wimbledon among the biggest events in women's tennis.

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 11:28 AM
Monica Seles came into her own in 1990 when she won her first GS and won the WTA champs

1990 Seles led 2-0
1991 Graf 2-0
1992 Sele-Graf tied 1-1
1993 Seles 1-0

So from 1990 to 1993 Seles led 4-3, and led 3-1 in GS final matches, so where is the Steffi *dominance* during this time period according to Calimero? :lol:

In addition Seles won 8 Grand Slams to Graf's 2? Ever wondered why Seles was #1 ad Graf was second fiddle? :lol:

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:04 PM
It was meant Bandabou? A person who thinks that it was "MEANT TO BE" that Seles be VIOLENTLY stabbed with a 9 inch knife probably ORDERED it.

Am I correct Bandabou?

Selective reading....maybe it just wasnīt meant to be for Seles to win more than those 9 majors...plus as the bible says: "nobody gets a test harder than he can withstand", sooooo.....

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:06 PM
Was the horse Connolly rode a fan of Doris Hart of any other player of the early 1950s who could personally benefit from the horse causing Connolly's injury?

Was Austin's back trouble caused by a fan of Evert or Navratilova plunging a knife deep into Austin's back?

No ... a Graf fan STABBING Seles in the back is a misfortune for Seles ... but who was the beneficiary?

Hard to say with any credibility that the ACTUAL CAUSES of Connolly's horseriding accident -- or Austin's back troubles -- were fans of the players ranked below them.

What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.


Wasnīt meant to be for none of those players......simple.

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:13 PM
Selective reading....maybe it just wasnīt meant to be for Seles to win more than those 9 majors...plus as the bible says: "nobody gets a test harder than he can withstand", sooooo.....

Going beyond the lines of mere idiocy into dangerous lunacy? And you think that was funny? ... Mr. Bandabou of Netherlands...

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:25 PM
Going beyond the lines of mere idiocy into dangerous lunacy? And you think that was funny? ... Mr. Bandabou of Netherlands...

You didnīt get it, did you? Itīs written in the bible....should go look it up.

It was a terrible and sad event, but thatīs it....life goes on and thereīs no use to keep looking back or think: what if?

Thereīs no what if...what happened happened.

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:29 PM
You didnīt get it, did you? Itīs written in the bible....should go look it up.

It was a terrible and sad event, but thatīs it....life goes on and thereīs no use to keep looking back or think: what if?

Thereīs no what if...what happened happened.

So what you're saying is that you knew beforehand that she would be violently stabbed on April 30, 1993? Because as what you said it was "MEANT" to be right? She was not "MEANT" to win more than 9 Grand Slams. Am I right?

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:33 PM
You didnīt get it, did you? Itīs written in the bible....should go look it up.

It was a terrible and sad event, but thatīs it....life goes on and thereīs no use to keep looking back or think: what if?

Thereīs no what if...what happened happened.

You should start apply that summation to Wimbledon 2004 final.;)

irma
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:55 PM
guys, i'm sorry for you, but this affair Graf-Seles is still an open wound.....it's not an open wound (for Monica and her real fans probably) but for some of the people who post in these threads it's pure sadistic, because some posts clearly show how much people enjoyed what happened, because now they have a "legal" reason to hate. yeah certain posts you were laughing about are way more insulting to Monica then to Steffi. I never understood why Monica fans accept this and they only whine about Steffi fans but really saying how Monica or Steffi didn't deserve the wins they had is nothing with saying how great the sick weirdo was. that's just pathetic not not pathetic but pathologic!

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 01:57 PM
You should start apply that summation to Wimbledon 2004 final.;)


Already did and am doing.....it wasnīt meant to be for Serena ( or Venus) this year. Period...

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:01 PM
So what you're saying is that you knew beforehand that she would be violently stabbed on April 30, 1993? Because as what you said it was "MEANT" to be right? She was not "MEANT" to win more than 9 Grand Slams. Am I right?

If Monica was MEANT to win MORE than 9 majors, sheīd have done so. The fact that she didnīt do so, proves that she WASNīT meant to win more than 9 majors.

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:05 PM
If Monica was MEANT to win MORE than 9 majors, sheīd have done so. The fact that she didnīt do so, proves that she WASNīT meant to win more than 9 majors.


I never knew tennis results were all due to celestial aspiration.:lol:

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:08 PM
it's not an open wound (for Monica and her real fans probably) but the for the people who post in this threads it's pure sadistic, because some posts clearly show how much people enjoyed what happened, because now they have a "legal" reason to hate. yeah certain posts you were laughing about are way more insulting to Monica then to Steffi. I never understood why Monica fans accept this and they only whine about Steffi fans but really saying how Monica or Steffi didn't deserve the wins they had is nothing with saying how great the sick weirdo was. that's just pathetic not not pathetic but pathologic!



More insulting to Monica? Irma-Graf fan...Why? ..Who got stabbed by fanatical fan over the "number one" ranking?... Was it a Monica fan who did perpetrate the horrendous crime?

Probably explains why the fanatical Graf fans NEVER want to talk about what happened on that dark day.. April 30, 1993....

The violent stabbing of Monica Seles was a horrible senseless crime unprecedented in sports history and completely changed the course of a sport.

Some people may seem to think that because one can't change things we should act like it never happened.....

But it did happen.... And people will never forget that..

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:12 PM
I never knew tennis results were all due to celestial aspiration.:lol:

They are.....there must something or somebody that gives you the talent, the strength, etc...no?

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:18 PM
If Monica was MEANT to win MORE than 9 majors, sheīd have done so. The fact that she didnīt do so, proves that she WASNīT meant to win more than 9 majors.

How could she? As what you said, she was MEANT to be stabbed by Gunther Parche to relinquish her number one ranking. Right Bandabou?

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:21 PM
How could she? As what you said, she was MEANT to be stabbed by Gunther Parche to relinquish her number one ranking. Right Bandabou?

Thatīd be like saying that the only reason Monica didnīt win or wouldnīt have won more than 9 majors would have been the stabbing.....donīt think this is necesarily true.

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:24 PM
Thatīd be like saying that the only reason Monica didnīt win or wouldnīt have won more than 9 majors would have been the stabbing.....donīt think this is necesarily true.

So, for instance: If the Titanic had not hit the iceberg, it would still have sunk?

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:27 PM
Thatīd be like saying that the only reason Monica didnīt win or wouldnīt have won more than 9 majors would have been the stabbing.....donīt think this is necesarily true.

But Monica did get stabbed by a 9 inch knife that almost killed her by a jealous fan of her rival so that the lesser ranked player can take over right?

And again, you said Monica was MEANT to be violently stabbed. And you knew beforehand as "meant".

irma
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:27 PM
More insulting to Monica? Irma-Graf fan...Why? ..Who got stabbed by fanatical fan over the "number one" ranking?... Was it a Monica fan who did perpetrate the horrendous crime?

Probably explains why the fanatical Graf fans NEVER want to talk about happened on that dark day.. April 30, 1993....

The violent stabbing of Monica Seles was a horrible senseless crime unprecedented in sports history and completely changed the course of a sport.

Some people may seem to think that because one can't change things we should act like it never happened.....

But it did happen.... And people should never forget that..
what do you want people not to forget? what happened?
yeah I agree. People should not forget. I also hope people will learn from it that hate is never good and can go insanity pretty quick. That's maybe another dark thing. People didn't learn. They just followed in the idiots footsteps and started to spread hate too. Thank goodness it's verbal and hopefully stays that way forever. But still it's also dark.

Then there is another thing you (and a few others) want. You want to stripe through somebody's career from that day on (or her whole career) who was not responsable and that everybody says she didn't really win all those matches/titles. She didn't deserve it and when people give her credit then I will take care that they will not do that for long. Isn't that a point towards what I said above too? a no bashing steffi is not is defending Monica or giving her credit!

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:29 PM
Why does everyone always take out the 'Steffi-hate' on poor Irma?

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:35 PM
So, for instance: If the Titanic had not hit the iceberg, it would still have sunk?

hmmm.....difficult one. Iīm not THAT advanced on that topic.

Iīm only saying that we shouldnīt be blaming the stabbing for ALL Monicaīs misfortunes since.

BeautifulGirl
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:35 PM
Why does everyone always take out the 'Steffi-hate' on poor Irma?

90's big nose thread again? :rolleyes: Fans know all too well what the looney did for the BIG NOSE steffi's career.

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:40 PM
But Monica did get stabbed by a 9 inch knife that almost killed her by a jealous fan of her rival so that the lesser ranked player can take over right?

And again, you said Monica was MEANT to be violently stabbed. And you knew beforehand as "meant".

Didnīt say so....I think we should just leave this topic....you donīt undersand me what Iīm trying to say.

Just saying: Shouldnīt keep blaming ALL misfortune of Seles on the stabbing....because sooner or later her reign wouldīve come to an end anyways. Nothing lasts forever.

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:41 PM
hmmm.....difficult one. Iīm not THAT advanced on that topic.

Iīm only saying that we shouldnīt be blaming the stabbing for ALL Monicaīs misfortunes since.

But according to you, there’s no such thing as personal misfortune, it’s all divine intervention.

Apparently you back-pedal now, and claim Monica DID have misfortune, and it’s possible she would have claimed more majors.

BeautifulGirl
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:41 PM
Poor poor steffi :rolleyes: , so many slams yet it is always in question and not as recognized. No wonder the graf fans so are so insecure. At least Masha really deserve her GS win.

Serena Sharapova
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:46 PM
90's thread again? :rolleyes: Fans know all too well what the looney did for the BIG NOSE steffi's career.

:lol:Yeah, this topics been rehashed over, and over again. But according to some sources, it was all meant to happen. And MONICA would still have won only 9 majors anyway!

Great Seles
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:50 PM
Didnīt say so....I think we should just leave this topic....you donīt undersand me what Iīm trying to say.

Just saying: Shouldnīt keep blaming ALL misfortune of Seles on the stabbing....because sooner or later her reign wouldīve come to an end anyways. Nothing lasts forever.

As long as her reign that does not come to end like what happened on April 30, 1993 when Gunther Parche was also thinking it was "meant" to be that Seles be KILLED by a 9 inch knife so that the lesser ranked player can be glorified again.

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 02:55 PM
But according to you, there’s no such thing as personal misfortune, it’s all divine intervention.

Apparently you back-pedal now, and claim Monica DID have misfortune, and it’s possible she would have claimed more majors.

Listen, I donīt want to make this a religious issue....

I just think that we shouldnīt blame everything on the stabbing. Nothing lasts forever....no matter how good you are, you wonīt win forever.

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 03:03 PM
As long as her reign that does not come to end like what happened on April 30, 1993 when Gunther Parche was also thinking it was "meant" to be that Seles be KILLED by a 9 inch knife so that the lesser ranked player can be glorified again.

See....THATīs the lesson. whatīs more important now: her life or tennis?

We can mourn all we want about the missed opportunities....but we should be thankful for the greater good: that sheīs still alive.

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 03:49 PM
See....THATīs the lesson. whatīs more important now: her life or tennis?

We can mourn all we want about the missed opportunities....but we should be thankful for the greater good: that sheīs still alive.



And you thought Steffi was better than Monica without Gunther Parche. :lol: I'm glad you learned your lesson on those Parche' inflated slams and stats.

Before you become another Gunther Parche and I don't think you will be alive to tell the story if indeed it happens again. :lol:

bandabou
Dec 3rd, 2004, 03:57 PM
And you thought Steffi was better than Monica without Gunther Parche. :lol: I'm glad you learned your lesson on those Parche' inflated slams and stats.

Before you become another Gunther Parche and I don't think you will be alive to tell the story if indeed it happens again. :lol:

again and again and again....keep dwelling on that if you want...

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 03:58 PM
90's thread again? :rolleyes: Fans know all too well what the looney did for the BIG NOSE steffi's career.

:lol:

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 04:00 PM
again and again and again....keep dwelling on that if you want...

Like a Cat on a String...he keeps on responding again and again and again. :lol:

DA FOREHAND
Dec 3rd, 2004, 04:29 PM
US Open night matches?

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:09 PM
Does this ring a bell, tiny Calimero?

" I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her"..........

------Second ranked Steffi Graf.......
after her DEMORALIZING loss to World Number One Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993....... :lol:

.


What about that?

"Steffi is the ultimate athlete. When she is playing at her best no-one comes close."
(Monica Seles, after her USO final loss at USO 1996)

:worship:

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:13 PM
you can say the same for Graf......
all that idolatric passion for Graf is something 90% German, believe me....


Graf won many polls even in the U.S.
In China they had a poll where more than 80 % named Graf as their favourite.
In Germany Graf never ever lost a "favourite tennis player" poll.
I have poll results here from England and France - winner Graf.
In India Graf was voted most beautiful female tennis player some years ago.

I'd say Graf has won about 75 % of all best-ever or "favourite player" polls.


:worship: :worship: :worship:

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:16 PM
10-5? You are counting Parche's historic accomplishments?

Before the STABBING, Graf won her first three matches against Monica (when Monica was 15 and sixteen) , and the proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT FOUR OF SEVEN.......and the number one ranking..... :lol:

Enter Gunther Parche.

Nice Try :lol:


"Four of seven" - what's that?
"Seles domination"?
OK, Selesians have lower standards - we know that.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:20 PM
[B][COLOR=Navy]It was 6-4 before the STABBING..

And keep in mind, Seles in the years 1989-1993 (each year) she was a teenager while Graf was SUPPOSED to be this great veteran female player ...

If Seles had won any 1 of those 6 matches that she lost (including when she was 14-15 years old or whatever young age she was when she first played Graf) the record pre-stabbing would have been 5-5. ...

Seles played her first match against Graf (and lost) exactly 12 months before she won her first slam. She was 15 years 6 months old.
Seles won FO 92 final with 10-8 in 3rd set and said immediately afterwards that "the match could have gone either way". Then it would have been 7-3 in Graf's favour and Graf would have been #1 at the end of 1992.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:25 PM
hmmm.....difficult one. Iīm not THAT advanced on that topic.

Iīm only saying that we shouldnīt be blaming the stabbing for ALL Monicaīs misfortunes since.


Don't forget how PTSD hit Seles in the 3rd set against Graf at FO 99 ....

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:26 PM
But according to you, there’s no such thing as personal misfortune, it’s all divine intervention.

Apparently you back-pedal now, and claim Monica DID have misfortune, and it’s possible she would have claimed more majors.


It was not meant to be.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:28 PM
Poor poor steffi :rolleyes: , so many slams yet it is always in question and not as recognized. No wonder the graf fans so are so insecure. At least Masha really deserve her GS win.


If Seles hadn't been stabbed she wouldn't have gained weight. Without gaining weight she would not have been so injury-prone. And would have played Wimbledon 2004. And won there of course.
Lucky Sharperova ....

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:29 PM
It was not meant to be.


Yes, Steffi and Tonya Harding were the supposed beneficiaries of physical attacks on athletes in their sportw who were higher ranked than they were. :lol:

The similarity? Both attacks were by people who were motivated to make the attacks for the benefit of a lower ranked rival of the player who was attacked.

except that Steffi had no knowledge or association with the perp who stabbed Seles.

Calimero377
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:31 PM
Yes, Steffi and Tonya Harding were the supposed beneficiaries of physical attacks on athletes in their sportw who were higher ranked than they were. :lol:


Who is Sonja Harding?
:confused:

Greatest
Dec 3rd, 2004, 05:33 PM
Don't forget how PTSD hit Seles in the 3rd set against Graf at FO 99 ....

Gunther Parche just like Calimero377, from all I have read and observed, was a man filled with jealousy and hate that overtook and controlled his thinking, and pretty soon his actions. He attached the competitive arena of tennis and people he didn't know to his own personal failings and hurts. What resulted was a horror that continues to insinuate its way into tennis dialogue eleven (count them, eleven) years afterwards. :lol:

alfajeffster
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:31 PM
Yeah, yeah...it was a dramatic event. Career-altening, traumatic, etc...but ENOUGH already. You canīt change history...and like it or not, life DOES go on.

You canīt keep blaming Selesīs misfortunes on the stabbing forever....she DID come back, but wether be it due to post-trauma, opponents improving and becoming better, fact is that she couldnīt reproduce the magic...period.

Maybe it just wasnīt meant to be for Seles...īcause remember: everything that happens in oneīs life thereīs a reason for it...heck, even Jesus Christ was crucified, soo...

It was a sad day for sure, the stabbing, but now itīs time to move on and stop all this denigrading.....because yeah, we can say that Steffi wouldnīt have won that many majors, etc...but to say that she and Parche were the greatest combo.....now that is just offensive.

Steffi even before Monica came into the picture, Steffi was already a legend.....golden slam, almost winning the grand slam two years running, etc..so her legacy was already secured.
"Each time I make my mother cry an angel dies and falls from heaven..."- Marilyn Manson

FrauleinSteffi
Dec 3rd, 2004, 06:52 PM
Yes to blame Steffi & her Fans and put her as a culprit with Parche(a madman) is ridiculous yes Monicas stabbing was terrible and it hurt her career for 2.5 years but she did come back but for whatever reasons she never did dominate or contend consistenly at majors or for the top ranking again....Steffi had problems too very bad injuries to her back & knee & off court troubles too but she was such a superb athlete and her movement and serve and lethal forehand and tough slice always kept her close or at the top....

Yuri
Dec 3rd, 2004, 07:43 PM
Why can Steffi Graf fans, not realise or admit - when an attempt to murder Monica Seles was made by a Steffi Graf fan, Monica was the best player in the world by a country mile.
When Monica returned, she was not the same player mentally or physically, but she still managed to secure more slam titles.
Fact: If she had NOT been stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan, she would have won MANY MORE slam titles. And anyone who says otherwise, is talking complete and utter garbage.

Greatest
Dec 4th, 2004, 07:05 AM
Seles won FO 92 final with 10-8 in 3rd set and said immediately afterwards that "the match could have gone either way". Then it would have been 7-3 in Graf's favour and Graf would have been #1 at the end of 1992.


The fact remains that Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis in those 30 months leading up to the stabbing --- EVERY major event in women's tennis other than Wimbledon between the 1990 WTA Championships and the 1993 Australian Open.

The way #1 Seles beat #2 Steffi Graf to win the 1993 Australian Open for a 3rd consecutive singles title there certainly did not suggest that Seles was close to ending her dominance.

It took something beyond Steffi Graf to stop Seles .. it took a sharp knife in the hands of a Graf fan in Germany to stop Monica's dominance.

Greatest
Dec 4th, 2004, 03:29 PM
It was not meant to be.



Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a jealous fan of Graf's took a sharp knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

Paldias
Dec 4th, 2004, 03:45 PM
You guys need to stop arguing about this, you can't change history and you never will. It was a tragedy when Monica Seles got stabbed. End of story. You can't predict nor can you assume what would have happened had Monica been stabbed or not, so please just stop arguing, because you obviously don't see Monica saying to Graf I would have won more slams.

Calimero377
Dec 4th, 2004, 05:02 PM
You guys need to stop arguing about this, you can't change history and you never will. It was a tragedy when Monica Seles got stabbed. End of story. You can't predict nor can you assume what would have happened had Monica been stabbed or not, ...

Of course we can.
Seles would have gained weight and weight anyway ...

Greatest
Dec 5th, 2004, 04:54 AM
Of course we can.
Seles would have gained weight and weight anyway ...

As usual, Graf cannot have the distinction as the best teenage player because that goes to players like Seles and Connolly

Graf cannot have the distinction as the best 20-something player because that goes to Navratilova.

No major all-time records for Graf ... the closest you can come is most hardcourt Slams since 1978 ... most U.S. Opens on hardcourts since 1978 ... most weeks ranked #1 since 1975.

Graf is not the best teenage player of all time .. that goes to Seles and Connolly.

Graf is not the best 30-something player, either ... Navratilova won 2 Wimbledons in her 30s - in 1987 by beating Graf in the final round and then in 1990 by beating the player who had beaten Graf in the semis.

Trying to think of a HALF DECADE where Graf was the best.

1980-1984- belonged to Navratilova.
1985-1989- Navratilova or Steffi .. it is close.
1990-1994- belonged to Seles.
1995-1999 -Hingis or Graf ... it is close.

case closed.

DA FOREHAND
Dec 5th, 2004, 05:36 PM
As usual, Graf cannot have the distinction as the best teenage player because that goes to players like Seles and Connolly

Graf cannot have the distinction as the best 20-something player because that goes to Navratilova.

No major all-time records for Graf ... the closest you can come is most hardcourt Slams since 1978 ... most U.S. Opens on hardcourts since 1978 ... most weeks ranked #1 since 1975.

Graf is not the best teenage player of all time .. that goes to Seles and Connolly.

Graf is not the best 30-something player, either ... Navratilova won 2 Wimbledons in her 30s - in 1987 by beating Graf in the final round and then in 1990 by beating the player who had beaten Graf in the semis.

Trying to think of a HALF DECADE where Graf was the best.

1980-1984- belonged to Navratilova.
1985-1989- Navratilova or Steffi .. it is close.
1990-1994- belonged to Seles.
1995-1999 -Hingis or Graf ... it is close.

case closed.


Steffi Graf can have the title of greatest ever though, and is mentioned on everybodies list. That was solidified when she won THE GRAND SLAM

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:21 AM
Steffi Graf can have the title of greatest ever though, and is mentioned on everybodies list. That was solidified when she won THE GRAND SLAM

And Gunther Parche can have the title of the greatest though? :lol:

Greatest
Dec 6th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Again, Graf can NEVER have the distinction as the best teenage player because that goes to players like Seles and Connolly

Graf cannot have the distinction as the best 20-something player because that goes to Navratilova.

No major all-time records for Graf ... the closest you can come is most hardcourt Slams since 1978 ... most U.S. Opens on hardcourts since 1978 ... most weeks ranked #1 since 1975.

Graf is not the best teenage player of all time .. that goes to Seles and Connolly.

Graf is not the best 30-something player, either ... Navratilova won 2 Wimbledons in her 30s - in 1987 by beating Graf in the final round and then in 1990 by beating the player who had beaten Graf in the semis.

Trying to think of a HALF DECADE where Graf was the best.

1980-1984- belonged to Navratilova.
1985-1989- Navratilova or Steffi .. it is close.
1990-1994- belonged to Seles.
1995-1999 -Hingis or Graf ... it is close.

case closed.

Greatest
Dec 8th, 2004, 08:03 AM
you can say the same for Graf......
all that idolatric passion for Graf is something 90% German, believe me....

:lol: