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View Full Version : Did Nadia really beat Monica at RG ī03?


bandabou
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:39 AM
what do u guys think of this match? Can we say that Monica was soundly beaten by Nadia or do we have to partially blame the result more on Monicaīs injury?

selking
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:40 AM
injury

~{X}~
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:41 AM
I think Nadia played good, I mean she did get to the Semi-Finals and all but I would think also that Seles lost due to her injury as well. I just hope that isn't Seles last match. :(

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:56 AM
I still say Monica got beaten...

selking
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:58 AM
I still say Monica got beaten...

she lost but she was injured. Just like tongiht with Serena but to a higher extent

Robbie.
Nov 16th, 2004, 06:01 AM
It's pointless to deny that an injury affected Monica in this match.

it also effected her when she lost to Koukaklova at the Aus Open 03

When Serena lost today

When Venus lost to Monica at AO 02

When Lindsay lost to Kuzzie at the US 04

All to varying extents of course

But who cares? They lost. That's what goes down in history. It only irks me when people say that "so and so wasn't good enough" without any caveat as if that match is an indicator of who is the better player as a rule. Well they weren't good enough ON THEY DAY because of the injury, but next time they play the story could be much different if both are healthy.

Darop.
Nov 16th, 2004, 09:25 AM
If Monica weren't injured it still would have been a close match...

Joana
Nov 16th, 2004, 09:30 AM
I seem to recall Nadia playing in further rounds of that tournament, so yes, it really happened.

tobi
Nov 16th, 2004, 09:32 AM
injury effected Monica's game on that match surely.but to be honest Nadia played well.i want to see Monica again in 2005,please...

Greatest
Nov 16th, 2004, 09:51 AM
Bandy, Who was that player who lost to Coetzer 6-1, 6-0 at the 1997 Berlin Open?

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2004, 10:05 AM
So Monica DID get beaten.

Greatest
Nov 16th, 2004, 10:07 AM
So Monica DID get beaten.

by amanda coetzer in Berlin in 1997? :lol:

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Berlin 97? Hmmm......did she even play there?

Chunchun
Nov 16th, 2004, 11:13 AM
Yes, Nadia really Did beat Monica at RG '03

Greatest
Nov 16th, 2004, 11:23 AM
Berlin 97? Hmmm......did she even play there?

Not with Parche around. :lol: but i remember a player losing 6-1, 6-0 in the 1997 Berlin.

Kudos to Nadia for beating the Legendary Seles but how many GS did Nadia won? Was she ever ranked number one EVER? Is she among the greatest in history?

I think Amanda was legendary too. :lol:

vutt
Nov 16th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Nadia also beat Jen later, so I'm sure Nadia played great tennis back then.

MarkyMark
Nov 16th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Nadia also beat Jen later, so I'm sure Nadia played great tennis back then.


pointless thread , sorry but I have never found any threads pointless until today

bandabou
Nov 16th, 2004, 04:10 PM
Not with Parche around. :lol: but i remember a player losing 6-1, 6-0 in the 1997 Berlin.

Kudos to Nadia for beating the Legendary Seles but how many GS did Nadia won? Was she ever ranked number one EVER? Is she among the greatest in history?

I think Amanda was legendary too. :lol:


Yeah...but who did Amanda beat then?

alexusjonesfan
Nov 16th, 2004, 04:12 PM
www.tenniscorner.net

FrauleinSteffi
Nov 16th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Since Nadia beat Jen & Vera to get to the Semi's Nadia won & she beat Seles in Rome in 2003 of course Seles was injured no doubt but Nadia is #12 in the world a very good player

ktwtennis
Nov 17th, 2004, 12:40 AM
I still say Monica got beaten...Then why did you ask idiot? Stop bashing everyone except for your precious, classless Williams...:rolleyes:

vogus
Nov 17th, 2004, 01:38 AM
Nadya played the tournie of her life, she should really have been in the final against Henin... she beat an in form Cappy in R16, then a favored Vera Z in the QF.

I think Nadya's 1R over Seles was legit.

R&J
Nov 17th, 2004, 05:18 AM
I still say Monica got beaten...

Well of course, thats why you brought this up.

Great Seles
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:12 AM
Since Nadia beat Jen & Vera to get to the Semi's Nadia won & she beat Seles in Rome in 2003 of course Seles was injured no doubt but Nadia is #12 in the world a very good player

Steffi Graf lost in the first round of Wimbledon and the first round of the WTA Tour Championships in the middle of her career -- and to the same person, I believe --- that superstar Lori McNeil.

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 11:47 AM
Well of course, thats why you brought this up.

Hey if monica-fans can say Serena wasnīt injured monday, then I can for sure say the same about Monica at Rg ī03.

Greatest
Nov 17th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Hey if monica-fans can say Serena wasnīt injured monday, then I can for sure say the same about Monica at Rg ī03.


LOL, this troll is nearly suicidal/homicidal about Maria's win....... :lol:

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Seems like Monica still hasnīt gotten over that loss...havenīt seen her since.

Sad memory: losing to a great like Nadia Petrova in your last two matches.....:sad:

goldenlox
Nov 17th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Nadia has said that her win against Capriati was her best tennis at the 2003 FO.
So Seles wasn't playing near her best.

R&J
Nov 17th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Hey if monica-fans can say Serena wasnīt injured monday, then I can for sure say the same about Monica at Rg ī03.

So in another words, you just started this thread to do some Monica bashing?
Oh and I am a Monica fan, and I think that Serena was injured on monday. Does that make you feel any better?

Andre_Co_Uk
Nov 17th, 2004, 06:41 PM
Hey if monica-fans can say Serena wasnīt injured monday, then I can for sure say the same about Monica at Rg ī03.

How old are you?

manu32
Nov 17th, 2004, 06:59 PM
yes she did

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:09 PM
So in another words, you just started this thread to do some Monica bashing?
Oh and I am a Monica fan, and I think that Serena was injured on monday. Does that make you feel any better?

Hmmm.......it wasnīt about feeling better, it was about: you wanna act funny, now fun this.

fried_beans
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Monica still had the class to stay after hte match and sign autographs :)

TheBoiledEgg
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:33 PM
for Nadia it was a dream
for Monica a nightmare

wonder what happened to reality :o
was that match a figment of our imagination ???

faboozadoo15
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:48 PM
well the match certainly wasn't a figment of our imagination, and nadia certainly won. the thing is, monica completely wasn't herself. she was in pain and really couldn't move; however, nadia played excellent the whole tournament, so there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have won anyway. but there's also little reason for monica to think that had she been healthy, her shots would have had more sting and she could have won.

Orion
Nov 17th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Amanda Coetzer def. Steffi Graf 6-1, 6-0 in front of Steffi's home crowd in Berlin, 1997. Graf was the top seed, Coetzer was the 12th seed.

Kart
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:00 PM
What is the point of this thread ???????????????????????????

Kart
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:00 PM
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????

Kart
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:01 PM
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????

Kart
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:01 PM
:retard:

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:14 PM
well the match certainly wasn't a figment of our imagination, and nadia certainly won. the thing is, monica completely wasn't herself. she was in pain and really couldn't move; however, nadia played excellent the whole tournament, so there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have won anyway. but there's also little reason for monica to think that had she been healthy, her shots would have had more sting and she could have won.

Faboo is that really you?! Monica wasnīt herself and thatīs why she lost?

Hmmm....yet somehow found a Serena who couldnīt serve, was herself?

faboozadoo15
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Faboo is that really you?! Monica wasnīt herself and thatīs why she lost?

Hmmm....yet somehow found a Serena who couldnīt serve, was herself?
well she was limping around from the start and could never push off her foot properly, so i definitely think the match would have been different.

i like how you only read two sentences of my posts. i also addressed that nadia played a great tournament so there's no reason to believe she couldn't have beaten a healthy monica.

these 2 matches are completely different.
at the time BEFORE serena's injury time out, the match was virtually even (maria was one hold from the set, and returns, lateral movement, and groundstrokes aren't affected much by ab strain). then you take into mind that maria lost all the momentum, and serena came out swinning for the fences, hitting winners on first or second shots. she played those games after her injury better than she has ever played in her life. and in the end, maria was stronger mentally and finished.

R&J
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Hmmm.......it wasnīt about feeling better, it was about: you wanna act funny, now fun this.

Thats exactly what I said........
It was a thread to try and make you feel better.

Ok, Just wanted to know where you were going with this :wavey:

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:36 PM
well she was limping around from the start and could never push off her foot properly, so i definitely think the match would have been different.

i like how you only read two sentences of my posts. i also addressed that nadia played a great tournament so there's no reason to believe she couldn't have beaten a healthy monica.

these 2 matches are completely different.
at the time BEFORE serena's injury time out, the match was virtually even (maria was one hold from the set, and returns, lateral movement, and groundstrokes aren't affected much by ab strain). then you take into mind that maria lost all the momentum, and serena came out swinning for the fences, hitting winners on first or second shots. she played those games after her injury better than she has ever played in her life. and in the end, maria was stronger mentally and finished.


O.k....as long as you admit that Monica was beaten just as Serena was beaten, itīs fine with me. You said it: injuries donīt factor...

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Thats exactly what I said........
It was a thread to try and make you feel better.

Ok, Just wanted to know where you were going with this :wavey:

and I think obviously I hit a nerve...suddenly you hear how Monica couldnīt walk this and that, that an ab-strain isnīt a serious injury, etc...

WorldWar24
Nov 17th, 2004, 08:44 PM
LMAO

The thread starter has unsolved issues! He started a whole different thread with the purpose to get back at a few posters, coz of Maria's win! :silly:

I have a hard time understanding what's so thrilling about this never ending bash/counterbash thing that seems to rule this forum

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 09:09 PM
LMAO

The thread starter has unsolved issues! He started a whole different thread with the purpose to get back at a few posters, coz of Maria's win! :silly:

I have a hard time understanding what's so thrilling about this never ending bash/counterbash thing that seems to rule this forum


Nah....itīs just funny to see people twist around their own comments, just because now itīs about their favs.

Calimero377
Nov 17th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Steffi Graf lost in the first round of Wimbledon and the first round of the WTA Tour Championships in the middle of her career -- and to the same person, I believe --- that superstar Lori McNeil.


McNeil was a very good grass court player.
So on a great day she could beat a player who is 74-7 at Wimbledon.
:worship:

Let's have a look how a real "legend" played in Wimbledon, the most important tournament in the world, the real World Championships:

1989: 4th round, 0-6, 1-6 against Graf
1990: qf, 6-3, 3-6, 7-9 against Garrison
1992: final, 2-6, 1-6 against Graf
1996: 2nd round, 5-7, 7-5, 4-6 against Studenikova
1997: 3rd round, 6-0, 4-6, 6-8 against Testud
1998: qf, 6-7, 2-6 against Zvereva
1999: 3rd round, 6-7, 6-7 against Lucic
2000: qf, 7-6, 4-6, 0-6 against Davenport
2002: qf, 5-7, 6-7 against Henin

Zero wins, one final, 4 quarters, 30-9 win/loss.
Almost as impressive as 7 wins, 2 finals, 74-7 win/loss.
Almost ...

And twice she even lost only to the coming champ.
Not really in tight fights, but nevertheless .....
:worship: ;)

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 10:26 PM
McNeil was a very good grass court player.
So on a great day she could beat a player who is 74-7 at Wimbledon.
:worship:

Let's have a look how a real "legend" played in Wimbledon, the most important tournament in the world, the real World Championships:

1989: 4th round, 0-6, 1-6 against Graf
1990: qf, 6-3, 3-6, 7-9 against Garrison
1992: final, 2-6, 1-6 against Graf
1996: 2nd round, 5-7, 7-5, 4-6 against Studenikova
1997: 3rd round, 6-0, 4-6, 6-8 against Testud
1998: qf, 6-7, 2-6 against Zvereva
1999: 3rd round, 6-7, 6-7 against Lucic
2000: qf, 7-6, 4-6, 0-6 against Davenport
2002: qf, 5-7, 6-7 against Henin

Zero wins, one final, 4 quarters, 30-9 win/loss.
Almost as impressive as 7 wins, 2 finals, 74-7 win/loss.
Almost ...

And twice she even lost only to the coming champ.
Not really in tight fights, but nevertheless .....
:worship: ;)

:lol: Tjaa.....

faboozadoo15
Nov 17th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Nah....itīs just funny to see people twist around their own comments, just because now itīs about their favs.
but this match is completely different, and it's a really bad comparison. monica was injured going into this match, and serena injured herself by going for too much on serves DURING the match.

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 10:55 PM
but this match is completely different, and it's a really bad comparison. monica was injured going into this match, and serena injured herself by going for too much on serves DURING the match.

Word has it that Serena said she was feeling it before the match and that it got worse as the match progressed, so I think we can say Serena came into the match with the injury....

So, whatīs it gonna be? Can we say that BOTH got beaten?

Joana
Nov 17th, 2004, 11:00 PM
50 replies and this still hasn't become a Steffi vs Monica discussion? I'm disappointed.

LDVTennis
Nov 17th, 2004, 11:02 PM
I still say Monica got beaten...

Funny bandabou! Monica never loses, never gets beaten.

Didn't you read my other posts on this subject? How many remedial courses in Seles logic are you going to have to take before you get it?

Monica has never lost a single match since 1993 because she's been either stabbed or stabbed and fat. (Even some of her losses before 1993 are questionable. Hangnail here, stubbed toe there, you getting the picture?)

Following that brilliant logic, I've argued that Monica is the only legitimate No. 1 the sport has had since 1993. I've even argued, rather masterfully, that had Seles not been stabbed or fat Seles would have won 43 Grand Slam titles since 1993. That number includes 10 calendar year Grand Slams since 1994. If this is so obvious to me, why isn't it to you?

bandabou
Nov 17th, 2004, 11:18 PM
Funny bandabou! Monica never loses, never gets beaten.

Didn't you read my other posts on this subject? How many remedial courses in Seles logic are you going to have to take before you get it?

Monica has never lost a single match since 1993 because she's been either stabbed or stabbed and fat. (Even some of her losses before 1993 are questionable. Hangnail here, stubbed toe there, you getting the picture?)

Following that brilliant logic, I've argued that Monica is the only legitimate No. 1 the sport has had since 1993. I've even argued, rather masterfully, that had Seles not been stabbed or fat Seles would have won 43 Grand Slam titles since 1993. That number includes 10 calendar year Grand Slams since 1994. If this is so obvious to me, why isn't it to you?

:lol: Not everybodyīs such a brilliant mind for things as you do, I guess....:lol:

10 calendar grand slams and that is in a row? No wonder they think Steffiīs ONE grand slam is nothing.....;)

Robbie.
Nov 17th, 2004, 11:24 PM
Funny bandabou! Monica never loses, never gets beaten.

Didn't you read my other posts on this subject? How many remedial courses in Seles logic are you going to have to take before you get it?

Monica has never lost a single match since 1993 because she's been either stabbed or stabbed and fat. (Even some of her losses before 1993 are questionable. Hangnail here, stubbed toe there, you getting the picture?)

Following that brilliant logic, I've argued that Monica is the only legitimate No. 1 the sport has had since 1993. I've even argued, rather masterfully, that had Seles not been stabbed or fat Seles would have won 43 Grand Slam titles since 1993. That number includes 10 calendar year Grand Slams since 1994. If this is so obvious to me, why isn't it to you?Let's not get all morally superior here. Graf fans aren't exactly averse to making excuses either, and she never got a knife stuck in her back.

There will always be contention over what might have been. Why? Because in the 12 slams before the stabbing Monica won 8 and Steffi won 2. In the 12 (10 of which Monica was absent for) slams after, Steffi won 7 and Monica won 1. It's as simple as that really.

Regardless, both will be remembered among the top handful of players since WW2.

faboozadoo15
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:01 AM
Word has it that Serena said she was feeling it before the match and that it got worse as the match progressed, so I think we can say Serena came into the match with the injury....

So, whatīs it gonna be? Can we say that BOTH got beaten?
word has it? who said that?
i saw serena playing well in the first set and certainly serving HUGE... she did not come in with an abdominal injury only to seek attention at the second set :rolleyes: that's just ridiculous.

and of course we can say that both were beaten. their opponents were better on the day. the only difference was that monica came in with an injury and probably shouldn't have played, while serena played well her whole first set and then sharapova found her range and took the second set away from her which led to serena taking an injury timeout to get treated and stop maria's momentum. then she came out swining, built a lead over maria and then lost 6 straight games.

Martian Willow
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Nah....itīs just funny to see people twist around their own comments, just because now itīs about their favs.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Arsehole. :)

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:21 AM
word has it? who said that?
i saw serena playing well in the first set and certainly serving HUGE... she did not come in with an abdominal injury only to seek attention at the second set :rolleyes: that's just ridiculous.

and of course we can say that both were beaten. their opponents were better on the day. the only difference was that monica came in with an injury and probably shouldn't have played, while serena played well her whole first set and then sharapova found her range and took the second set away from her which led to serena taking an injury timeout to get treated and stop maria's momentum. then she came out swining, built a lead over maria and then lost 6 straight games.

No difference.....BOTH were beaten. You said it...end of discussion.

All that follows is blah blah...Maria found her range and Serena took a time-out to stop Mariaīs momentum? Whatīs that supposed to mean? So the match was in Mariaīs hands only? Donīt think so.

faboozadoo15
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:31 AM
No difference.....BOTH were beaten. You said it...end of discussion.

All that follows is blah blah...Maria found her range and Serena took a time-out to stop Mariaīs momentum? Whatīs that supposed to mean? So the match was in Mariaīs hands only? Donīt think so.
yep, both lost, both played better players on the day.
ALL the momentum was in maria's favor. serena KNOWS that as soon as she has any pain that she needs to take an injury timeout, she wouldn't have waited 5 games... maria just really stepped it up and started playing cleaner tennis.
i'm not saying serena took the timeout TO stop maria's momentum, im saying the effect of the injury timeout was that it DID take away maria's momentum.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:45 AM
yep, both lost, both played better players on the day.


Was it that hard?

faboozadoo15
Nov 18th, 2004, 03:24 AM
Was it that hard?
i ask you the same thing. i've said monica was beaten by nadia the day it happened.
when will it sink in that the same happened to serena at the hands of maria?
serena and monica were both injured, there matches were very different, and at the end of the day we'll never know what difference it would have made if they were completely healthy, but it doesn't because they weren't.
if monica possibly took better care of her foot, maybe that wouldn't be an issue, maybe if serena worked her impressive abs into a more flexible muscle group or if she didn't try to serve SO hard, it wouldn't have been an issue for her. a lot more injuries are self inflicted than we would like to believe. there's a reason bartoli won't ever have an ab strain, and there's a good reason why someone like justine henin may never have to worry about a stress fracture in her foot. hopefully that doesn't come accross wrong, but i really do believe there are things players can do about their injuries to a certain extent.

Calimero377
Nov 18th, 2004, 05:33 AM
50 replies and this still hasn't become a Steffi vs Monica discussion? I'm disappointed.

I'm working on it ...

Calimero377
Nov 18th, 2004, 05:37 AM
Let's not get all morally superior here. Graf fans aren't exactly averse to making excuses either, and she never got a knife stuck in her back.

There will always be contention over what might have been. Why? Because in the 12 slams before the stabbing Monica won 8 and Steffi won 2. In the 12 (10 of which Monica was absent for) slams after, Steffi won 7 and Monica won 1. It's as simple as that really.

Regardless, both will be remembered among the top handful of players since WW2.


"Handful"?
Meaning five?
Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf.
Where is Seles?
With no Wimbledons ....

Great Seles
Nov 18th, 2004, 06:20 AM
"Handful"?
Meaning five?
Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf.
Where is Seles?
With no Wimbledons ....

There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Great Seles
Nov 18th, 2004, 06:31 AM
McNeil was a very good grass court player.
So on a great day she could beat a player who is 74-7 at Wimbledon.
:worship:

Let's have a look how a real "legend" played in Wimbledon, the most important tournament in the world, the real World Championships:

1989: 4th round, 0-6, 1-6 against Graf
1990: qf, 6-3, 3-6, 7-9 against Garrison
1992: final, 2-6, 1-6 against Graf
1996: 2nd round, 5-7, 7-5, 4-6 against Studenikova
1997: 3rd round, 6-0, 4-6, 6-8 against Testud
1998: qf, 6-7, 2-6 against Zvereva
1999: 3rd round, 6-7, 6-7 against Lucic
2000: qf, 7-6, 4-6, 0-6 against Davenport
2002: qf, 5-7, 6-7 against Henin

Zero wins, one final, 4 quarters, 30-9 win/loss.
Almost as impressive as 7 wins, 2 finals, 74-7 win/loss.
Almost ...

And twice she even lost only to the coming champ.
Not really in tight fights, but nevertheless .....
:worship: ;)


How many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 4 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf .

Robbie.
Nov 18th, 2004, 06:53 AM
"Handful"?
Meaning five?
Connolly, Court, Evert, Navratilova, Graf.
Where is Seles?
With no Wimbledons ....Aren't we pedantic? :lol:

Make it 7 - with King and Seles. Only Court, Evert, Nav and Graf clearly rank higher than Seles in terms of career achievement. Mo, Billie Jean and Monica are on the next rung, just ahead of Cawley and Gibson.

Considering the millions of women who have picked up a tennis racket over the last 60 years, the difference between being in the top 7 and top 5 is fairly negiligible IMO.

You know the case for Steffi's greatness isn't enhanced by underselling Seles, to whom she played second fiddle for three years during her prime.

Great Seles
Nov 18th, 2004, 07:44 AM
Aren't we pedantic? :lol:

You know the case for Steffi's greatness isn't enhanced by underselling Seles, to whom she played second fiddle for three years during her prime.

Exactly. Great Point Robbie

irma
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:26 AM
when you are injured and decide to play then you are ready (even when the doctor gives you a green light) and so you got beaten fair and square. I think the only exception is when you are leading and then gets injured by a fall and retire, but even when you decide to play on then it's a choice you make. (a logic choice though since giving up isn't a funny thing)

I mean Serena clearly couldn't serve anymore on tuesday but Sharpova still had to make the games. she could also have hitten everything in the net (and really I can imagine some (top) players who would have done that). I didn't see the Monica-Petrova match. I know Monica was leading in the first and then didn't win a game anymore. Did she aggravate it or was simply outplayed? (even with an injury you can be outplayed when the opponent takes advantage of your disability)

Great Seles
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:38 AM
Just as Steffi is now -- even though the stabbing of the true #1 of that era in the back with a knife by one of her fans certainly doesn't help her case any.

Great Seles
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:53 AM
From 1990 through April 1993 Steffi Graf was limited to winning only 3 of the major singles titles in women's tennis (3 out of 16 played during this time) ... Monica Seles, as a 2-handed teenage phenom, won 11 of these 16 singles titles (including 2 of the 5 in 1990 .. 4 of the 5 in 1991 .. 4 of the 5 in 1992 .. and the only 1 prior to the stabbing in 1993).

Enter Gunther Parche....

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2004, 12:06 PM
i ask you the same thing. i've said monica was beaten by nadia the day it happened.
when will it sink in that the same happened to serena at the hands of maria?
serena and monica were both injured, there matches were very different, and at the end of the day we'll never know what difference it would have made if they were completely healthy, but it doesn't because they weren't.
if monica possibly took better care of her foot, maybe that wouldn't be an issue, maybe if serena worked her impressive abs into a more flexible muscle group or if she didn't try to serve SO hard, it wouldn't have been an issue for her. a lot more injuries are self inflicted than we would like to believe. there's a reason bartoli won't ever have an ab strain, and there's a good reason why someone like justine henin may never have to worry about a stress fracture in her foot. hopefully that doesn't come accross wrong, but i really do believe there are things players can do about their injuries to a certain extent.

You did say it, but only reluctantly so.....it cost you much pain to admit that Monica too was beaten, injured or not.

About the injuries, maybe youīre right....

Calimero377
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Aren't we pedantic? :lol:

Make it 7 - with King and Seles. Only Court, Evert, Nav and Graf clearly rank higher than Seles in terms of career achievement. Mo, Billie Jean and Monica are on the next rung, just ahead of Cawley and Gibson.

Considering the millions of women who have picked up a tennis racket over the last 60 years, the difference between being in the top 7 and top 5 is fairly negiligible IMO.

You know the case for Steffi's greatness isn't enhanced by underselling Seles, to whom she played second fiddle for three years during her prime.


"Three years"?
Seles was #1 for 103 weeks in the early 90ies - not even a full two years.
Graf lead the rankings with 74 pts. at the end of 1990. A lead Seles never ever had in her week on the top spot.
Graf was perhaps "second fiddle" in 91/92. But who won the most important tournament of them all, Wimbledon, in both years? A hint: Monica was not her christian name ....

:)

faboozadoo15
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:32 PM
You did say it, but only reluctantly so.....it cost you much pain to admit that Monica too was beaten, injured or not.

About the injuries, maybe youīre right....
reluctantly? again i invite you to read my first post in this thread :rolleyes:
also, even the day it happened, i aknowledged that petrova was the better player on the day and deserved to win. it's not that hard for me. maybe it's difficult for you to admit loss when you are living vicariously through your favorite player :rolleyes: so you just assume it would therefore be as difficult for me. sorry, but it's not.

bandabou
Nov 18th, 2004, 09:39 PM
reluctantly? again i invite you to read my first post in this thread :rolleyes:
also, even the day it happened, i aknowledged that petrova was the better player on the day and deserved to win. it's not that hard for me. maybe it's difficult for you to admit loss when you are living vicariously through your favorite player :rolleyes: so you just assume it would therefore be as difficult for me. sorry, but it's not.


Then why had we to say: They arenīt comparable, Monica couldnīt walk, she was in pain, etc....?

Then the post should have been: Yes, she shold lost.

End of discussion.

Great Seles
Nov 19th, 2004, 09:31 AM
"Three years"?
Seles was #1 for 103 weeks in the early 90ies - not even a full two years.
Graf lead the rankings with 74 pts. at the end of 1990. A lead Seles never ever had in her week on the top spot.
Graf was perhaps "second fiddle" in 91/92. But who won the most important tournament of them all, Wimbledon, in both years? A hint: Monica was not her christian name ....

:)

Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won (90%) of the major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%)
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%)



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking


Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 --- Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - --Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 --- Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 --- Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - --Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

Steffi Graf challenged for the top ranking twice in 1991 BUT was only capable of holding to it at the maximum (three weeks). Ultimately, the german LOST the battle to Seles and happily settled at number two.

Seles LOST her number one ranking due to inactivity on June 06, 1993 after the horrible stabbing by a jealous Graf fan.

jcaprulez
Nov 19th, 2004, 09:33 AM
No she didn't really beat Monica. It was just our imaginations. :cuckoo:

Greatest
Nov 19th, 2004, 11:25 AM
No she didn't really beat Monica. It was just our imaginations. :cuckoo:

Clueless ?... :lol:

Geisha
Nov 19th, 2004, 01:50 PM
I'm totally confused?

Calimero377
Nov 19th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Seles won about 20% more titles than Graf did.

Seles won (90%) of the major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf). ...

Seles won 8 and Graf 3. Forget YEC. No-one really cares.
And we should consider career achievements, not only a brief span of 3 years.
Graf won 22 slams in a 17-year-long career. 7 Wimbledon among them.
Seles won 9 slams in a 16-year-long career. Zero Wimbledons among them.

Graf only lost 1 in 10 matches.
Seles lost 1 in 6 matches.

There simply is no contest. It's 1st tier against 2nd tier.
Difference between Graf and Seles is bigger than between Seles and Martinez. Graf - 22 slams , Seles - 9 slams, Martinez 1 slam.
And even Conchita won 1 Wimbledon ....