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Justeenium
Nov 11th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Let's remember your honorable friend yasser....

]

– Aug 4, 1929: Arafat born in Cairo. Muhammad Abdel Rahman Abdel Rauf al-Qudwa al-Husseini is fifth child of prosperous merchant, Abdel Raouf al-Qudwa al-Husseini.

– 1933: Arafat's mother dies. He and his infant brother are sent to live with uncle in Jerusalem.

– Late 1950's: Arafat co-founds Fatah, the “Movement for the National Liberation of Palestine.”

– Jan. 1, 1965: Fatah fails in its first attempted attack within Israel — the bombing of the National Water Carrier.

– July 5, 1965: A Fatah cell plants explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

– 1965-1967: Numerous Fatah bomb attacks target Israeli villages, water pipes, railroads. Homes are destroyed and Israelis are killed.

– July 1968: Fatah joins and becomes the dominant member of the PLO, an umbrella organization of Palestinian terrorist groups.

– Feb. 4, 1969: Arafat is appointed Chairman of the Executive Committee of the PLO

– Feb. 21, 1970: SwissAir flight 330, bound for Tel Aviv, is bombed in mid-flight by PFLP, a PLO member group. 47 people are killed.

– May 8, 1970: PLO terrorists attack an Israeli schoolbus with bazooka fire, killing nine pupils and three teachers from Moshav Avivim

– Sept. 6, 1970: TWA, Pan-Am, and BOAC airplanes are hijacked by PLO terrorists.

– September 1970: Jordanian forces battle the PLO terrorist organization, driving its members out of Jordan after the group's violent activity threatens to destabilize the kingdom. The terrorists flee to Lebanon. This period in PLO history is called “Black September.”

– May 1972: PFLP, part of the PLO, dispatches members of the Japanese Red Army to attack Lod Airport in Tel Aviv, killing 27 people.

– Sept. 5, 1972: Munich Massacre —11 Israeli athletes are murdered at the Munich Olympics by a group calling themselves “Black September,”said to be an arm of Fatah, operating under Arafat's direct command.

– March 1, 1973: Palestinian terrorists take over Saudi embassy in Khartoum. The next day, two Americans –including the United States' ambassador to Sudan, Cleo Noel – and a Belgian were shot and killed. James J. Welsh, an analyst for the National Security Agency from 1969 through 1974, charged Arafat with direct complicity in these murders.

– April 11, 1974: 11 people are killed by Palestinian terrorists who attack apartment building in Kiryat Shmona.

– May 15, 1974: PLO terrorists infiltrating from Lebanon hold children hostage in Ma'alot school. 26 people, 21 of them children, are killed.

– June 9, 1974: Palestinian National Council adopts “Phased Plan,” which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on any territory evacuated by Israel, to be used as a base of operations for destroying the whole of Israel. The PLO reaffirms its rejection of United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, which calls for a “just and lasting peace” and the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

– November 1974: PLO takes responsibility for the PDFLP's Beit She'an murders in which 4 Israelis are killed.

– Nov. 13, 1974: Arafat, wearing a gun, addresses the U.N. General Assembly.

– March 1975: Members of Fatah attack the Tel Aviv seafront and take hostages in the Savoy hotel. Three soldiers, three civilians and seven terrorists are killed.

– March 1978: Coastal Road Massacre —Fatah terrorists take over a bus on the Haifa-Tel Aviv highway and kill 21 Israelis.

– 1982: Having created a terrorist mini-state in Lebanon destabilizing that nation, PLO is expelled as a result of Israel's response to incessant PLO missile attacks against northern Israeli communities. Arafat relocates to Tunis.

– Oct. 7, 1985: Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro is hijacked by Palestinian terrorists. Wheelchair-bound elderly man, Leon Klinghoffer, was shot and thrown overboard. Intelligence reports note that instructions originated from Arafat's headquarters in Tunis.

– Dec. 12, 1988: Arafat claims to accept Israel's right to exist.

– September 1993: Arafat shakes hands with Israeli Prime Minister Rabin, inaugurating the Oslo Accords. Arafat pledges to stop incitement and terror, and to foster co-existence with Israel, but fails to comply. Throughout the years of negotiations, aside from passing, token efforts, Arafat does nothing to stop Hamas, PFLP, and Islamic Jihad from carrying out thousands of terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. With Arafat's encouragement and financial support, groups directly under Arafat's command, such as the Tanzim and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, also carry out terror attacks.

– Oct. 21, 1996: Speaking at a rally near Bethlehem, Arafat said "We know only one word - jihad. jihad, jihad, jihad. Whoever does not like it can drink from the Dead Sea or from the Sea of Gaza." (Yediot Ahronot, October 23, 1996)

– April 16, 1998: In a statement published in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, Arafat is quoted: "O my dear ones on the occupied lands, relatives and friends throughout Palestine and the diaspora, my colleagues in struggle and in arms, my colleagues in struggle and in jihad...Intensify the revolution and the blessed intifada...We must burn the ground under the feet of the invaders."

– July 2000: Arafat rejects peace settlement offered by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, which would have led to a Palestinian state.

– September 2000: New "intifada" is launched. Arafat continues to incite, support and fund terrorism.

– Jan. 3, 2002: Israelis intercept the Karine-A, a ship loaded with 50 tons of mortars, rocket launchers, anti-tank mines and other weapons intended for the Palestinian war against the Israelis. The captain admits he was under the command of the Palestinian Authority.

– September 2003: IMF report titled "Economic Performance and Reforms under Conflict Conditions," states that Arafat has diverted $900 million of public PA funds into his own accounts from 1995 - 2000.

Below are some of the attacks since Sept 2000 perpetrated by groups under Arafat's command:



– May 29, 2001: Gilad Zar, an Itamar resident, was shot dead in a terrorist ambush by Fatah Tanzim.

– May 29, 2001: Sara Blaustein, 53, and Esther Alvan, 20, of Efrat, were killed in a drive-by shooting south of Jerusalem. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.

– June 18, 2001: Doron Zisserman, 38, shot and killed in his car by Fatah sniper fire.

– Aug 26, 2001: Dov Rosman, 58, killed in a shooting attack by Fatah terrorist.

– Sept 6, 2001: Erez Merhavi, 23, killed in a Fatah Tanzim ambush shooting near Hadera while driving to a wedding.

– Sept 20, 2001: Sarit Amrani, 26, killed by Fatah terrorist snipers as she was traveling in a car with her husband and 3 children.

– Oct 4, 2001: 3 killed, 13 wounded, when a Fatah terrorist, dressed as an Israeli paratrooper, opened fire on Israeli civilians waiting at the central bus station in Afula.

– Nov 27, 2001 - 2 killed 50 injured when two Palestinian terrorists opened fire with Kalashnikov assault rifles on a crowd of people near the central bus station in Afula. Fatah and the Islamic Jihad claimed joint responsibility.

– Nov 29, 2001: 3 killed and 9 wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Dec 12, 2001 - 11 killed and 30 wounded when three terrorists attacked a bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria . Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Jan 15, 2002: Avi Boaz, 71, an American citizen, was kidnapped at a PA security checkpoint in Beit Jala. His bullet-riddled body was found in a car near Bethlehem. The Fatah's Al-Aksa Brigade claimed responsibility for the murder.

– Jan 15, 2002: Yoela Chen, 45, was shot dead by an Al Aqsa Brigade terrorist

– Jan 17, 2002: 6 killed, 35 wounded when a Fatah terrorist burst into a bat mitzva reception in a banquet hall in Hadera opening fire with an M-16 assault rifle.

– Jan 22, 2002: 2 killed, 40 injured when a Fatah terrorist opened fire with an M-16 assault rifle near a bus stop in downtown Jerusalem.

– Jan. 27, 2002: One person was killed and more than 150 were wounded by a female Fatah suicide bomber in the center of Jerusalem.

– Feb 6, 2002 - A mother and her 11 year old daughter were murdered in their home by a Palestinian terrorist disguised in an IDF uniform. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility.

– Feb 18, 2002 : - Ahuva Amergi, 30, was killed and a 60-year old man was injured when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on her car. Maj. Mor Elraz, 25, and St.-Sgt. Amir Mansouri, 21, who came to their assistance, were killed while trying to intercept the terrorist. The terrorist was killed when the explosives he was carrying were detonated. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Feb 22, 2002: Valery Ahmir, 59, was killed by terrorists in a Fatah drive-by shooting north of Jerusalem as he returned home from work.

– Feb 25, 2002: Avraham Fish, 65, and Aharon Gorov, 46, were killed in a Fatah terrorist shooting attack south of Bethlehem. Fish's daughter, 9 months pregnant, was seriously injured but delivered a baby girl.

– Feb 25, 2002: Police officer 1st Sgt. Galit Arbiv, 21, died after being fatally shot, when a Fatah terrorist opened fire at a bus stop in the Neve Ya'akov residential neighbhorhood in northern Jerusalem. Eight others were injured.

– Feb 27, 2002: Gad Rejwan, 34, of Jerusalem, was shot and killed by one of his Palestinian employees in a factory north of Jerusalem. Two Fatah groups issued a joint statement taking responsibility for the murder.

– March 2, 2002: A suicide bombing by Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in an ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem killed 11 people and injured more than 50.

– Mar 5, 2002: 3 were killed and over 30 people were wounded in Tel-Aviv when a Fatah terrorist opened fire on two adjacent restaurants shortly after 2:00 AM.

– Mar 5, 2002: Devorah Friedman, 45, of Efrat, was killed and her husband injured in a Fatah shooting attack on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel road", south of Jerusalem.

– Mar 9, 2002: Avia Malka, 9 months, and Israel Yihye, 27, were killed and about 50 people were injured when two Fatah terrorists opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday evening, close to the city's boardwalk and hotels.

–March 21, 2002: An Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bomber exploded himself in a crowd of shoppers in Jerusalem, killing 3 and injuring 86.

– March 29, 2002: Two killed and 28 injured when a female Fatah suicide bomber blew herself up in a Jerusalem supermarket.

– March 30, 2002: One killed and 30 injured in an Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.

– April 12, 2002: Six killed and 104 wounded when a female Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bomber blew herself up at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market.

– May 27, 2002: Ruth Peled, 56, of Herzliya and her infant granddaughter, aged 14 months, were killed and 37 people were injured when a Fatah suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva.

– May 28, 2002 - Albert Maloul, 50, of Jerusalem, was killed when shots were fired by Fatah terrorists at the car in which he was traveling south on the Ramallah bypass road.

– May 28, 2002 - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorists killed Netanel Riachi, 17, Gilad Stiglitz, 14, and Avraham Siton, 17, three yeshiva high school students playing basketball.

– June 19, 2002: Seven people were killed and 37 injured when a Fatah suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post in the French Hill neighborhood of Jerusalem.

– June 20, 2002: Rachel Shabo, 40, and three of her sons - Neria, 16, Zvika, 12, and Avishai, 5 - as well as a neighbor, Yosef Twito, 31, who came to their aid, were murdered when a terrorist entered their home in Itamar, south of Nablus, and opened fire. Two other children were injured, as well as two soldiers. The PFLP and the Fatah Al Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

– July 25, 2002: Rabbi Elimelech Shapira, 43, was killed in a Fatah shooting attack near the West Bank community of Alei Zahav.

– July 26, 2002: St.-Sgt. Elazar Lebovitch, 21, of Hebron; Rabbi Yosef Dikstein, 45, of Psagot, his wife Hannah, 42, and their 9-year-old son Shuv'el Zion were killed in a Fatah Al Aqsa Brigade shooting attack south of Hebron. Two other of their children were injured. – July 30, 2002: Shlomo Odesser, 60, and his brother Mordechai, 52, both of Tapuach in Samaria, were shot and killed when their truck came under Fatah fire in the West Bank village of ....'in.

– Aug 4, 2002: 2 killed and 17 wounded when a Fatah terrorist opened fire with a pistol near the Damascus Gate of Jerusalem's Old City.

– Aug 5, 2002: Avi Wolanski (29) and his wife Avital (27), of Eli, were killed and one of their children, aged 3, was injured when terrorists opened fire on their car as they were traveling on the Ramallah-Nablus road in Samaria. The Martyrs of the Palestinian Popular Army, a splinter group associated with Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Aug 10, 2002: Yafit Herenstein, 31, of Moshav Mechora in the Jordan Valley, was killed and her husband, Arno, seriously wounded when a Fatah terrorist infiltrated the moshav and opened fire outside their home.

– Sept 18, 2002: Yosef Ajami, 36, was killed when Fatah terrorists opened fire on his car near Mevo Dotan, north of Jenin in the West Bank.

– Oct 29, 2002: Three people, including 2 fourteen year olds, were shot to death by a Fatah terrorist.

-- Nov 10, 2002: Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, 4, as well as Yitzhak Dori, 44 - all of Kibbutz Metzer - and Tirza Damari, 42, were killed when a Fatah terrorist infiltrated the kibbutz, located east of Hadera near the Green Line, and opened fire.

– Nov 28, 2002: 5 killed and 40 wounded when two Fatah terrorists opened fire and threw grenades at the Likud polling station in Beit She'an, near the central bus station, where party members were casting their votes in the Likud primary.

– Apr 24, 2003 - 1 was killed and 13 were wounded in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.

– May 5, 2003 - Gideon Lichterman, 27, was killed and two other passengers, his six-year-old daughter Moriah and a reserve soldier, were seriously wounded when Fatah terrorists fired shots at their vehicle in Samaria.

– May 19, 2003: 3 were killed and 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Aug 29, 2003: Shalom Har-Melekh, 25, was killed in a Fatah shooting attack while driving northeast of Ramallah. His wife, Limor, who was seven months pregnant, sustained moderate injuries, and gave birth to a baby girl by Caesarean section.

– Jan 29, 2004: 11 people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus no. 19 at the corner of Gaza and Arlozorov streets in Jerusalem. Both the Fatah-related Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

– Mar 14, 2004: 10 were killed and 16 wounded in a double suicide bombing at Ashdod Port. Hamas and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.

– May 2, 2004: Tali Hatuel, 34, and her daughters - Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and Merav, 2 - of Katif in the Gaza Strip were killed when two Palestinian terrorists fired on an Israeli car at the entrance to the Gaza Strip settlement bloc of Gush Katif. Fatah and Islamic Jihad claimed joint responsibility for the attack. :rolleyes:

:lol: they must be having a hell of a homecoming party in hell right now :D

Paldias
Nov 11th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Isn't Arafat a wonderul man. :) :rolleyes:

Justineeium he's an anti-semite, and I guess we're just going to have to deal with it.

Philbo
Nov 11th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Can anyone be bothered doing up a list of the Israeli nation security forces human rights transgressions and 'terrorism' over the last 40 or so years?

The list would be just as long.

This thread is one sided crap.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 11th, 2004, 10:59 PM
Can anyone be bothered doing up a list of the Israeli nation security forces human rights transgressions and 'terrorism' over the last 40 or so years?

The list would be just as long.

This thread is one sided crap.
One sided... as both of these posters tend to be, so it suits them well.

I'd be interested to see evidence that Volcana is an anti-semite? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I've never come across it before. Enlighten me.

flyingmachine
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:02 PM
One sided... as both of these posters tend to be, so it suits them well.

I'd be interested to see evidence that Volcana is an anti-semite? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I've never come across it before. Enlighten me.

It seems it's easier to teach a cow how to fly them to teach humans on humanity. ;)

Crazy Canuck
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry... I'm not familiar with that phrase. HUH?

flyingmachine
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:08 PM
I'm sorry... I'm not familiar with that phrase. HUH?
Well just said some people never learn.
Some people are just so one sided that they will never learn that's all.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Ah, I follow.

Martian Willow
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:22 PM
One sided... as both of these posters tend to be, so it suits them well.

I'd be interested to see evidence that Volcana is an anti-semite? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I've never come across it before. Enlighten me.

He doesn't think Israel should be allowed to do whatever the hell it likes to the evil subhuman Palestinians.

harloo
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:28 PM
volcana is so popular in these political threads, his fans even dedicate threads in his honour. :lol:

tennisIlove09
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:34 PM
:wavey: indeed...hi volcana!

Rocketta
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:51 PM
volcana is so popular in these political threads, his fans even dedicate threads in his honour. :lol:
'her' fans even dedicate threads to 'her' honor...;) :wavey:

Joana
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:56 PM
That's one of the great mysteries of this board. I think it's a he too. Or a robot.

flyingmachine
Nov 11th, 2004, 11:58 PM
'her' fans even dedicate threads to 'her' honor...;) :wavey:
Oh so it's a she. Well she is a hell of a women for sure. ;)

Rocketta
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:01 AM
Volcana is a "he".
Volcana is a she...

Joana
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:02 AM
Now I'm getting confused.

Martian Willow
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:02 AM
I'm sure she's a he. :confused:

But I'm usually wrong.

:worship: Volcana. :worship:

Paldias
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:15 AM
Can anyone be bothered doing up a list of the Israeli nation security forces human rights transgressions and 'terrorism' over the last 40 or so years?

The list would be just as long.

This thread is one sided crap.

Make me a list then. Make me a list of attacks that Isreal officials like (Sharon) who have sent bombs on the Palestinians. (THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE GOING AFTER HAMAS AND KILLING CIVILIANS ACCIDENTALLY)

Joana
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:18 AM
Make me a list then. Make me a list of attacks that Isreal officials like (Sharon) who have sent bombs on the Palestinians. (THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE GOING AFTER HAMAS AND KILLING CIVILIANS ACCIDENTALLY)
I think we should just go back to speculating about Volcana's sex (life).

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:31 AM
Make me a list then. Make me a list of attacks that Isreal officials like (Sharon) who have sent bombs on the Palestinians. (THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE GOING AFTER HAMAS AND KILLING CIVILIANS ACCIDENTALLY)
I really cant be bothered making a list of Israeli atrocoties against The palestinians. I could start with the young girl shot in the head a few weeks ago on her way to school, I could talk about the new Berlin wall the Israelis are building with no logic or reason as to where they build it, I could talk about the UN criticisms of various Israelie human rights transgressions, but theres no point.

Its a cycle of violence in which there are 'terrorists' on both sides - we could go back and forth about whos to blame for what but the only real point we'd be able to agree on is that neither side is 'innocent' - my post was just pointing out that the thread starter was completely one sided with their original post.

The Israelies certainly arent the innocent victimised people that Justineium makes them out to be.

Paldias
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:44 AM
I really cant be bothered making a list of Israeli atrocoties against The palestinians. I could start with the young girl shot in the head a few weeks ago on her way to school, I could talk about the new Berlin wall the Israelis are building with no logic or reason as to where they build it, I could talk about the UN criticisms of various Israelie human rights transgressions, but theres no point.

Its a cycle of violence in which there are 'terrorists' on both sides - we could go back and forth about whos to blame for what but the only real point we'd be able to agree on is that neither side is 'innocent' - my post was just pointing out that the thread starter was completely one sided with their original post.

The Israelies certainly arent the innocent victimised people that Justineium makes them out to be.

The UN has no credibility. They claim the Hamas is not a terrorist group? And why not? Well because they have programs that teach children how to read? Well since they send out people to blow themselves up it must be okay since they teach children how to read?

My question for the UN would be if Al-Qaeda was teaching children how to read would the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre be okay?

Dirty Sanchez
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:56 AM
I thought Volcana was a "he" as well, although at first I thought he was a "she" so who knows!!

A damn cool poster either way though! :yeah:

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Can anyone be bothered doing up a list of the Israeli nation security forces human rights transgressions and 'terrorism' over the last 40 or so years?

The list would be just as long.

This thread is one sided crap.
or how about you show a list of all the times Israel has tried to make peace fucktard.

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Isn't Arafat a wonderul man. :) :rolleyes:

Justineeium he's an anti-semite, and I guess we're just going to have to deal with it.I thought volcana was a chick? guess I was wrong.

edit: i read the rest of the thread, i was right.

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:30 AM
or how about you show a list of all the times Israel has tried to make peace fucktard.
That list would be just as long as the times THEY have undermined the Peace effort.

There isnt one innocent side in this whole confict, anyone that says there is one right side and one wrong side is full of shit - perfect example is Justineium.

Absolutely-full-of-shit!!

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:32 AM
If the UN ha no credibility, the Isreali governemnt certainly doesnt!!

What about just weeks ago when the Israeli's had to backtrack on claims that the UN was helping terrorists and showed footage of someone supposedly putting a rocket launcher into an ambulance!!

It was a goddam stretcher!! Open up your eyes and try to see both sides of the argument.

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:34 AM
I could talk about the new Berlin wall the Israelis are building with no logic or reason as to where they build it,
Berlin wall? :lol:

read for once


Although critics have sought to portray the security fence as a kind of "Berlin Wall," it is nothing of the sort. First, unlike the Berlin Wall, the fence does not separate one people, Germans from Germans, and deny freedom to those on one side. Israel's security fence separates two peoples, Israelis and Palestinians, and offers freedom and security for both. Second, while Israelis are fully prepared to live with Palestinians, and 20 percent of the Israeli population (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/demtoc.html) is already Arab, it is the Palestinians who say they do not want to live with any Jews and call for the West Bank to be judenrein. Third, the fence is not being constructed to prevent the citizens of one state from escaping; it is designed solely to keep terrorists out of Israel. Finally, only a tiny fraction of the barrier (less than 3% or about 15 miles) is actually a 30 foot high concrete wall, and that is being built in three areas where it will prevent Palestinian snipers from around the terrorist hotbeds of Kalkilya and Tul Karm from shooting at cars as they have done for the last three years along the Trans-Israel Highway, one of the country's main roads. The wall also takes up less space than the other barriers, only about seven feet, so it did not have a great impact on the area where it was built.

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:45 AM
Israel Worried of Sanctions due to its Apartheid Wall



GAZA, August 21, 2004 (IPC + Agencies) - -

The Israeli Attorney General, Mini Mazzouz, presented a report on Thursday to the Israeli government, in which he recommended that the government should not underestimate the ruling of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) about the Apartheid Wall, otherwise it might face sanctions.



The ICJ asserted that the wall, being built by Israel in and through the West Bank, is illegal under international law, and should be torn down, and the Palestinians affected by it be compensated.



The report presented by Mazzouz, which was prepared by a team of specialists, mentioned that "it is hard to exaggerate about the dangerous ramifications of the ruling of The Hague Court, but it could lead to the imposition of sanctions on Israel."



Mazzouz recommended dispatching official spokespersons for Israel abroad to say that Israel "agrees" to the ICJ ruling "despite handling only one side of the issue."



In the first Israeli reference to the international court's decision, head of the Israeli Supreme Court, Judge Aaron Barak, said on Thursday that "Israel will not be able to ignore the ICJ ruling concerning the separation fence, and it must give an explanation to its construction."



Barak's remarks came during a court session held to look into three motions concerning the route of the Apartheid Wall through the lands of Shaqba Village, northwest of Ramallah City, as well as the Wall's route in Al Ram suburb in the occupied East Jerusalem and the city of Beit Jala.



Mohammed Dahleh, one of the attorneys who submitted these motions, said that the decision by Judge Barak was the most important one issued by the Supreme Court with regards to the Apartheid Wall, adding that "the court bound the Israeli District Attorney's Office to The Hague ruling based on the motions we submitted."



However, Dahleh noted that the Israeli judge referred only to the route of the wall in the West Bank, not in Jerusalem, pointing out that the ICJ considers East Jerusalem as occupied territory but the Israeli Supreme Court doesn't consider it as so, based on the "Jerusalem Unification" law.



The Israeli authorities and its judicial system have – until today – completely ignored the ICJ ruling and subsequent UN resolution that adopted it. The Israeli Minister of Justice, Yosef "Tommy" Lapid, declared following the issuance of the ruling that Israel rejects any decision from the court at The Hague and would not carry it out.



According to the Supreme Court's decision, the Israeli government must respond to Dahleh's motion concerning the route of the wall through Shaqba Village within three days, through the District Attorney. The decision also added that it must refer to the ICJ ruling concerning that.



The people of Shaqba, in the motion, said that the Apartheid Wall would keep 750 dunums of their lands behind it, de facto annexing them to the Israeli side. The villagers asserted that these lands are planted with olive and fig trees, and that these crops are their sole source of livelihood.



At the international level, several world bodies and governments declared their rejection of the continued Israeli construction of the Apartheid Wall, as well as the ongoing expansion of illegal Israeli settlements.



International news agencies reported that the developing countries have declared that they would boycott all products of the Israeli settlements, and that they are considering to impose sanctions on the companies that import these products or the companies that contribute to constructing the Apartheid Wall.



Also, the foreign ministers of the non-aligned countries demanded in their closing statement the UN Security Council to impose sanctions on Israel and to take necessary steps to ensure it ceases the construction of the Wall.



The movement of non-aligned countries, which include 115 members, called the Security Council to assess the damages caused by the 600-kilometer-long Wall, and to force Israel to compensate for these damages to the Palestinian side.



The Permanent Observer of Palestine to the UN, Dr. Nasser Al Kidwa, said he was pleased with the position of the non-aligned countries, adding that Israel has "virtually colonized the Palestinian people."

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:46 AM
You read Fucktard.

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:55 AM
Israelis and Palestinians ("]:rolleyes: [/url]
MYTH
“The International Court of Justice should decide whether Israel is justified in building a security fence.”

FACT

The most important issue at stake in the conflict between road map[/color] (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/roadtoc.html) obligation to stop the violence, and singling Israel out for opprobrium while ignoring the Palestinian terrorism (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/palterrortoc.html) that necessitated the construction of the security fence (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/fencetoc.html).

Counting the countries that did not vote, as well as those that voted against the Arab proposal (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/ungaes10_14.html), 101 member-states — a majority of UN (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/untoc.html) members — did not support referring the fence issue to the court, and at least 30 countries, including the United States, Great Britain, Russia, and 15 members of the European Union submitting affidavits to the ICJ saying that the issue does not belong in the Court.

The UN General Assembly (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/gatoc.html) has already adopted a position on the matter and prejudged it. Moreover, the decision to submit the issue of the fence to the court ignores Article 36 of the Court’s Statute which stipulates that contentious issues can only be brought before the Court with the consent of all sides. In this case, the issue is clearly contentious, Israel (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/israel.html) did not consent to arbitration before the court, and the parties already have mechanisms in place for resolving such issues.

The question put to the Court misleadingly refers to the barrier as a “wall” when, in fact, less than 3% of the anti-terrorist barrier is concrete and more than 97% consists of a chain-link system.

Israel only built this fence to defend its citizens after three years of unrelenting Palestinian violence that has taken the lives of nearly 1,000 Israelis. No outside court or international organization has the authority to determine how Israel should protect its citizens.

The United States shares this view and that is why it objects to the Court’s involvement. After all, if the Court can tell Israel that it can’t build a fence to defend itself from terrorists, why can’t the justices tell the United States that it is illegal to build a barrier to keep Mexicans from entering the United States, or that its war in Iraq was not justified?

What is the basis for challenging the fence in the first place? Contrary to the language of the General Assembly resolution, the fence does not stand on “occupied Palestinian” land. The fence does not affect the final status of the territories. Israel has not annexed any territory around the fence; the land (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/boundtoc.html) itself is a matter of dispute and, should a peace settlement be reached, the fence can be moved or torn down. Israel has already said it would reroute the fence to minimize the impact on the Palestinians.

And why should the Court single out Israel’s actions? Has it ever ruled on the dispute between India and Pakistan over Kashmir or the conflict between Greece and Turkey over Cyprus (in both cases similar fences have been built), or any of the dozens of other international border disputes?

The court may issue an advisory opinion on “the legal implications of building a wall,” but its decisions do not have the force of law. The court is a political body and Israel has no representation on the court. The 15 judge panel does, however, include a Palestinian from Jordan and an Egyptian.

The politicization of the proceedings is clear from the Court’s decision to allow 56 countries from the Organization of the Islamic Conference, along with the 22 members of the [url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/arablgtoc.html"]Arab League (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/talktoc.html), to testify against Israel. While Palestinians may legitimately criticize the fence, none of these other parties are in any way affected by Israel’s efforts to defend itself. Is it any wonder that Israelis expect the trial to resemble the Israeli-bashing forum that occurred in Durban and the one-sided debates in the General Assembly?

Israel is in a no-win situation. By virtue of being “taken to court,” Israel is automatically put on the defensive. If Israel puts its case before the Court, it would legitimate the tribunal’s authority; however, if it ignores the proceedings, Israel increases the probability that the testimony will be one-sided and that the Court will ultimately censure Israel.

Israel ultimately decided it would not participate in the trial and was joined in this decision by the United States, Russia, and the EU. This left the hearings to Israel's critics who, predictably, used them as a propaganda forum to castigate Israel.

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:59 AM
If the UN ha no credibility, the Isreali governemnt certainly doesnt!!

What about just weeks ago when the Israeli's had to backtrack on claims that the UN was helping terrorists and showed footage of someone supposedly putting a rocket launcher into an ambulance!!

It was a goddam stretcher!! Open up your eyes and try to see both sides of the argument.Israel has every reason to be pissed at the UN


While the UN (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/parttoc.html) routinely adopts resolutions critical of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, it has never adopted a single resolution unequivocally condemning violence against Israeli citizens. One of the most dramatic examples of the institution’s double-standard came in 2003 when Israel offered a draft resolution (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/israel_un.html) in the General Assembly (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/gatoc.html) for the first time in 27 years.

The resolution called for the protection of Israeli children from terrorism (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/terrortoc.html), but it did not receive enough support from the members of the General Assembly to even come to a vote. Israel had introduced the resolution in response to the murder of dozens of Israeli children in terrorist attacks, and after a similar resolution had been adopted by a UN committee (later adopted (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unga58_155.html) by the full Assembly) calling for the protection of Palestinian children from “Israeli aggression.” Israel's ambassador withdrew the proposed draft after it became clear that members of the nonaligned movement were determined to revise it in such a way that it would have ultimately been critical of Israel.49 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf24.html#49)

Celeste
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:04 AM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!
I have much more respect for Volcana than most of the others in non-tennis, this thread was in response to his/her thread(s) after Arafat died.

nash
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:32 AM
Good point, Celeste. Thanks for your post. I'm officially laying off...

Philbo
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!
You know I think you rock Celeste, but this post is a load of crap!

You rule Volcana!

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:57 AM
for once I'm going to agree with czechfan.

Where did that come from Celeste? do you know Volcana?

Cam'ron Giles
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:59 AM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!
Thats a really mean and vicious post...Celeste...some of the shit you have post in this forum leads me to believe that you might have some serious probs of your own. :rolleyes:

Tennis Fool
Nov 12th, 2004, 06:20 AM
Isn't Arafat a wonderul man. :) :rolleyes:

Justineeium he's an anti-semite, and I guess we're just going to have to deal with it.
Question about the use of "anti-Semite". Both the Palestinians and Israelis are semitic people, so how can one be accused "anti-semetism" against the other?

tfannis
Nov 12th, 2004, 08:29 AM
Make me a list then. Make me a list of attacks that Isreal officials like (Sharon) who have sent bombs on the Palestinians. (THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE GOING AFTER HAMAS AND KILLING CIVILIANS ACCIDENTALLY)
Does Sabra and Chatila ring a bel?

tfannis
Nov 12th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Does Sabra and Chatila ring a bel?I'll help :)
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp



The Sabra and Shatila massacres - why do we ignore them?
Chris Tolworthy
March 2002

The massacres at Sabra and Shatila provide an interesting comparison to the September 11th tragedy. Both killed around 2800 innocent people (although the exact count at Sabra and Shatila may be much higher). Both were probably guided by men with a history of terrorism. However, while Sepember 11th is remembered in the west, Sabra and Shatila are largely ignored.

In 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon and killed between 2000 and 3500 innocent civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. The striking thing is that the west almost ignores it. Try a web search for "Sabra and Shatila" and look for western sources. For example, the Time Magazine web site just headlines the invasion as "Israel Strikes at The PLO" and barely mentions the massacre. Yet everyone agrees that it took place.


"In 1983, an Israeli state inquiry found Mr Sharon, then defense minister, indirectly responsible for the killing of hundreds of men, women and children at Sabra and Shatila camps during Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon." ."(1) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#1)



On December 16, 1982 the United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Sharon resigned as defense minister, but later became Israeli Prime Minister.


The massacre was recently investigated by the BBC and the conclusions were damning. The BBC team reported on their investigation, and included this interesting comment:


"In Beirut we confronted the man accused of leading the slaughter. There was in Lebanon a sense of surprise that we would wish to revisit such an event. As one former militia leader said, 'For God's sake if you prosecuted for war crimes here we'd all be in jail.'"(2) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#2)



A British parliamentary motion requested:



"That this House congratulates the BBC for Panorama's recent in-depth analysis of the massacres in Sabra and Shatilla during the war in Lebanon in 1982; notes that following the massacres an internal Israeli commission of inquiry forced the resignation of the then Israeli Defence Minister, Ariel Sharon; believes there is sufficient prima facie evidence to indicate that Ariel Sharon, now the Israeli Prime Minister, should be tried for war crimes; and calls upon the international community to ensure that he is duly charged at the earliest possible opportunity.' (3) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#3)



The motion added "that 400,000 people in Israel demonstrated their horror and disgust at such a crime against humanity"


How does this compare with the World Trade Center bombings - in numbers and in how it happened?


"The precise number of victims of the massacre may never be exactly determined. The International Committee of the Red Cross counted 1,500 at the time but by September 22 this count had risen to 2,400. On the following day 350 bodies were uncovered so that the total then ascertained had reached 2,750. Kapeliouk points out that to the number of bodies found after the massacre one should add three categories of victims:


(a) Those buried in mass graves whose number cannot be ascertained because the Lebanese authorities forbade their opening;
(b) Those who were buried under the ruins of houses; and
(c) Those who were taken alive to an unknown destination but never returned.
The bodies of some of them were found by the side of the roads leading to the south. Kapeliouk asserts that the number of victims may be 3,000 to 3,500, one-quarter of whom were Lebanese, while the remainder were Palestinians."(4) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#4)


At time of writing (late January 2002) these issues are finally coming before a court in Belgium.


Will Sharon and others be tried for war crimes? Possibly.

Will they be found guilty? Probably not.

Since the trial was announced, key witnesses have been tracked down and assassinated:


"A potential key witness in the Belgian war crimes case against the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, was blown up outside his house in Beirut yesterday [January 25th], together with three bodyguards. Elie Hobeika, a Lebanese warlord involved in the massacre of more than 1,000 Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in 1982, died only a few days after saying he would give evidence in Belgium."(5) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#5)



"The secrets of the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian camp massacres in 1982 have gone to the grave with yet another former Phalangist militiaman, the third Lebanese to die mysteriously in little more than two months. Michael Nassar, who was a former associate of Elie Hobeika - the Phalangist leader murdered in a car bombing in Beirut in January - was shot dead in Brazil by a man firing a pistol equipped with a silencer. His young wife, Marie, was shot down beside him...


"The first former right-wing Christian to be struck down was one of Hobeika's old colleagues, Jean Ghanem, who drove his car into a tree on New Year's Day...

"A Belgian court has postponed a decision over whether to indict Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, for his role in the massacres - he was held 'personally responsible' by an Israeli commission of inquiry - while lawyers for the survivors produce more evidence. But the vital evidence that may lie in the memories of those involved with the killers, who were allied to Israel at the time, is disappearing almost by the week as the death list grows." (6) (http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/faq/Sabra.asp#6)


For details of American support for Israel - currently approaching one hundred billion dollars - see the Washington Report at http://www.washington-report.org. (http://www.washington-report.org/)

Steff_forever
Nov 12th, 2004, 09:19 AM
Its a cycle of violence in which there are 'terrorists' on both sides - we could go back and forth about whos to blame for what but the only real point we'd be able to agree on is that neither side is 'innocent' - my post was just pointing out that the thread starter was completely one sided with their original post.
The Israelies certainly arent the innocent victimised people that Justineium makes them out to be.

Nothing else to say. :worship:
Those one-sided outbreaks of cynism of volcana and Justeenium are frustrating my sense of justice ...

Truthwillout
Nov 12th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Question about the use of "anti-Semite". Both the Palestinians and Israelis are semitic people, so how can one be accused "anti-semetism" against the other?

Time for my pedantic moment. Whereas Hebrews and Arabs are considered as semitic peoples (with an "s" in this context), the term anti-semite only applies to Jews in the meaning of being hostile toward or prejudiced against them. So calling someone who defends Israel an anti-semite is a non-sequitur or more simply total nonsense.

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 11:43 AM
Can anyone be bothered doing up a list of the Israeli nation security forces human rights transgressions and 'terrorism' over the last 40 or so years?

The list would be just as long.

This thread is one sided crap.


Get Bent! :fiery:

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Oh just so there is no confusion.... let me make it perfectly clear that yes Israel is not innocent. IMO opinon though, someone who cant make see the difference between the terrorism that Arafat and his goonies commit and the bad stuff that Israel does should get their head checked. Bad deeds can indeed be measured. I see it like this, some places are cold. Take Antarctica. very very cold. New York city also gets cold, especially, in the winter. Some days it gets below freezing even. Antarctica is much colder, much less inhabitable, much snowier, alors, its worse. Just cause NY also has its cold days doesnt mean you can throw them both in the same pot and call it, a cycle of coldness. Smart people can see the difference, it is obvious.

Cuckoo
Nov 12th, 2004, 11:58 AM
I see it like this, some places are cold. Take Antarctica. very very cold. New York city also gets cold, especially, in the winter. Some days it gets below freezing even. Antarctica is much colder, much less inhabitable, much snowier, alors, its worse. Just cause NY also has its cold days doesnt mean you can throw them both in the same pot and call it, a cycle of coldness. Smart people can see the difference, it is obvious.
:confused: You can't fault weather mate, thats Mother Earth Speaking. You can fault how a Human Acts. ;)

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:06 PM
:confused: You can't fault weather mate, thats Mother Earth Speaking. You can fault how a Human Acts. ;)


Right, sure. So you can fault human acts, agreed. lets take a murderer who intentionally kills some one. His acts are not as bad as say a serial killer who kills 20 people, eats their bodies, and urinates on thier bones. There is a difference. So just because both sides do bad things, doesnt mean that its all the same in the end. :mad:

Cuckoo
Nov 12th, 2004, 12:21 PM
An International issue thats on a high political scale and agenda across the globe is alot more complicated then the public stance on the degree murder.

tfannis
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Right, sure. So you can fault human acts, agreed. lets take a murderer who intentionally kills some one. His acts are not as bad as say a serial killer who kills 20 people, eats their bodies, and urinates on thier bones. There is a difference. So just because both sides do bad things, doesnt mean that its all the same in the end. :mad:
So what do you think of what happened in Sabra and Chatila...is it not worse than a terrorist attact (in fact, don't you think it is a terrorist attack?)?

Allez-H
Nov 12th, 2004, 01:34 PM
So what do you think of what happened in Sabra and Chatila...is it not worse than a terrorist attact (in fact, don't you think it is a terrorist attack?)?
I pretty much said the same thing a couple of months ago when Isreali-troops killed Sheik Yassin and the answer was:'That (Sabra and Chatila) is ancient history'.... So pretty much not important,who cares about all those victims since it's ancient history anyway.I guess WOII is ancient history and so it aaaaaaaaaaall should be forgotten :rolleyes:

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:22 PM
So what do you think of what happened in Sabra and Chatila...is it not worse than a terrorist attact (in fact, don't you think it is a terrorist attack?)?


I dont know about any of that. My head is in the sand. :lol: when i did keep up with the day to day issues it was clear to me that most of the Arab world wants to destroy Israel and any trace of the Jews from the world. :sad: That Israel has made some mistakes in undeniable. about 10 years ago, a deranged Israeli soldier opened fire on innocent people killing about 30 innocent people. So sure it happens. It happens frequently, a father looses his whole family from a terrorist bomb and he plans some revenge. The mistake is to think it is a cycle of violence. For me, clearly the terrorist groups are wrong(er) evil(er) stupid(er), shall i go on? I believe that the Arab world could have helped their Arab brethern ages and ages ago, there would be no refugee problem. When the entire Arab world kicked all of their Jews out of their countries, Israel integrated them. :angel: It is true, when Israel was created, the Arab nations threw us out, no compensation for lost land, for lost property, for the disgrace, nothing. Why cant the Arab world take care of thier own people? They just dont have the same degree of affinity I guess, or responsibilty, or whatever the word. Would you like to read a good article about that? I can provide the link. The Jewish people looked out for each other. They were kicked out of their homes, not compensated for shit, and they came to Israel with nothing. And we took them in and treated them like brethren no questions asked. And then what? did they wage war for revenge against their former home countries? NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO. they just made a better life somewhere else. Israels neighbours want war, no peace. When you figure out, give me a call, we can discuss it. We have goons on our side for sure, but at least, if peace were acheived, our goons would call it quits. Their goons would not.

DelMonte
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:38 PM
A question to Justeenium:

Is there any aspect of Israli foreign policy (past or contemporary) or Israel's treatment of the Palestinians that you find problematic?

kabuki
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!

This post is pure, unadulterated EVIL.

Steff_forever
Nov 12th, 2004, 02:49 PM
I dont know about any of that. My head is in the sand. :lol: when i did keep up with the day to day issues it was clear to me that most of the Arab world wants to destroy Israel and any trace of the Jews from the world. :sad: That Israel has made some mistakes in undeniable. about 10 years ago, a deranged Israeli soldier opened fire on innocent people killing about 30 innocent people. So sure it happens. It happens frequently, a father looses his whole family from a terrorist bomb and he plans some revenge. The mistake is to think it is a cycle of violence. For me, clearly the terrorist groups are wrong(er) evil(er) stupid(er), shall i go on? I believe that the Arab world could have helped their Arab brethern ages and ages ago, there would be no refugee problem. When the entire Arab world kicked all of their Jews out of their countries, Israel integrated them. :angel: It is true, when Israel was created, the Arab nations threw us out, no compensation for lost land, for lost property, for the disgrace, nothing. Why cant the Arab world take care of thier own people? They just dont have the same degree of affinity I guess, or responsibilty, or whatever the word. Would you like to read a good article about that? I can provide the link. The Jewish people looked out for each other. They were kicked out of their homes, not compensated for shit, and they came to Israel with nothing. And we took them in and treated them like brethren no questions asked. And then what? did they wage war for revenge against their former home countries? NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO. they just made a better life somewhere else. Israels neighbours want war, no peace. When you figure out, give me a call, we can discuss it. We have goons on our side for sure, but at least, if peace were acheived, our goons would call it quits. Their goons would not. I think killing innocents is not to excuse. May it be by the bombs of the Hamas or the bombs from helicopters and jetplanes of a so-called civilized state. Please tell me what's the difference ?

I would like that Israelis keep aware that every bomb on terrorists killing innocent people is a way to increase aggresiveness beneath the Palestinians. Collateral damage is a sarcastic description of the failure to solve problems. The strategy to overcome the problem with superiority as Ariel Sharon is executing it is not a sign of thinking but of taking revenge. The feeling of revenge is the fire for both hardliner-groups (for the extreme Palestinians as well as for the (extreme) right in Israel).

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 03:03 PM
Listen, guys and gals, lay off of Volcana. I find him as dreadful and annoying as anyone else, but I've also seen some of his posts that he deletes immediately. In my opinion, he's been unemployed for an extended period and has severe, very severe, mental illness. Extremely severe mental illness in my opinion. I think he might even hurt himself, and we don't want that, not for any poster. I really mean that. Volcana is someone no one really wants on these boards, he's truly annoying and dreadful in every way possible, but I truly believe it's mental illness that's beyond his control, so let him post all his shit and just let it go. Giving him this fame that he wants and craves only makes it worse. I don't believe the whole adoption shit he's claiming, but if he doesn't get that baby, Lord can only hope he doesn't, he'll post about how Bush stopped the adoption because he'll claim Bush doesn't want Black people to adopt, mark my words, that's the next step. Volcana is very, very sick, let it go! You should not wake a sleepwalker!

Yo, this is out of line. who the fuck are you anyway? Lots i times i dont agree with Volcana but lots of times i kind of do agree with Volcana. How would you know if Volcana is mentally ill? As a formerly mentally ill person (some might disagree with formerly but take my word for it) i take offense to that. It is often very hard to tell is someone is mentally ill anyway. Who are you Sigmund Freud? Chill out. He seems like a nice enough person, although he is highly critical of the United States and also Israel I might add. He may have his reasons to be pissed off, and you should just cut him some slack.

Fingon
Nov 12th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Oh just so there is no confusion.... let me make it perfectly clear that yes Israel is not innocent. IMO opinon though, someone who cant make see the difference between the terrorism that Arafat and his goonies commit and the bad stuff that Israel does should get their head checked. Bad deeds can indeed be measured. I see it like this, some places are cold. Take Antarctica. very very cold. New York city also gets cold, especially, in the winter. Some days it gets below freezing even. Antarctica is much colder, much less inhabitable, much snowier, alors, its worse. Just cause NY also has its cold days doesnt mean you can throw them both in the same pot and call it, a cycle of coldness. Smart people can see the difference, it is obvious.
smart people, that's the key word

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Does Sabra and Chatila ring a bel?

does it ring a bell in your head that it was completely Lebanon's fault?

MYTH

“Israel cannot claim that its 1982 invasion of Lebanon, launched against an ill-equipped PLO, was a defensive war.”

FACT

By June 1982, when the IDF went into Lebanon, the PLO had made life in northern Israel intolerable, by its repeated shelling of Israeli towns.

A force of some 15-18,000 PLO members was encamped in scores of locations in Lebanon. About 5,000-6,000 were foreign mercenaries, coming from such countries as Libya, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique.1 Israel discovered enough light arms and other weapons in Lebanon to equip five brigades.2 The PLO had an arsenal that included mortars, Katyusha rockets, and an extensive anti-aircraft network. The PLO also brought hundreds of T-34 tanks into the area.3 Syria, which permitted Lebanon to become a haven for the PLO and other terrorist groups, brought surface-to-air missiles into that country, creating yet another danger for Israel.

Israeli strikes and commando raids had been unable to stem the growth of this PLO army. Israel was not prepared to wait for more deadly attacks to be launched against its civilian population before acting against the terrorists.







MYTH

“The PLO posed no real threat to Israel. When Israel attacked, the PLO had been observing a year-long cease-fire agreement.”

FACT

The PLO had repeatedly violated the July 1981 cease-fire agreement. In the ensuing 11 months, the PLO staged 270 terrorist actions in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and along the Lebanese and Jordanian borders. Twenty-nine Israelis died, and more than 300 were injured in the attacks.4 The situation in the Galilee became intolerable as the frequency of attacks forced thousands of residents to flee their homes or to spend large amounts of time in bomb shelters. During this period, Israel launched retaliatory raids against PLO bases in Lebanon.

After Israel launched one such assault on June 4-5, 1982, the PLO responded with a massive artillery and mortar attack on the Israeli population of the Galilee. On June 6, the IDF moved into Lebanon to drive out the terrorists.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger defended the Israeli operation: "No sovereign state can tolerate indefinitely the buildup along its borders of a military force dedicated to its destruction and implementing its objectives by periodic shellings and raids."5

"On Lebanon, it is clear that we and Israel both seek an end to the violence there, and a sovereign, independent Lebanon," President Reagan said June 21, 1982. "We agree that Israel must not be subjected to violence from the north."

Documents found by the IDF in Lebanon during the operation showed that terrorist groups had made detailed plans for shelling towns in northern Israel. The following are translations of two documents found at PLO headquarters in Sidon. Both were dated July 1981:

Name of Shelled Target: Kiryat Shemona
Number of Salvos: 17 shells in 2 portions, each portion 120mm
Unit in Charge: Artillery of the Joint Forces of the South.

To: El-Haj Ismail
Greetings for the Revolution!
The Supreme Military Council has decided to concentrate on the destruction of Kiryat Shemona, Metullah, Dan, Shear Yashuv and Nahariya and its vicinity.
Kiryat Shemona: will be distributed among all the platoons and will be shelled with improved "Grad" shells.
Metullah: will be shelled with 160mm mortars (Palestine Liberation Front-As-Saiqa).
Nahariya and its vicinity will be shelled with 130mm guns-Artillery Battalion 1
Dan and Shear Yashuv: will be the responsibility of the eastern sector.
Revolution until victory!6

MYTH

“The PLO treated the Lebanese with dignity and respect.”

FACT

For Arab residents of south Lebanon, PLO rule was a nightmare. After the PLO was expelled from Jordan by King Hussein in 1970, many of its cadres went to Lebanon. The PLO seized whole areas of the country, where it brutalized the population and usurped Lebanese government authority.

On October 14, 1976, Lebanese Ambassador Edward Ghorra told the UN General Assembly the PLO was bringing ruin upon his country: “Palestinian elements belonging to various splinter organizations resorted to kidnaping Lebanese, and sometimes foreigners, holding them prisoners, questioning them, and even sometimes killing them.”6a

Columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, not known for being sympathetic toward Israel, declared after touring south Lebanon and Beirut that the facts "tend to support Israel's claim that the PLO has become permeated by thugs and adventurers."6b

The columnists talked to a doctor whose farm had been taken over without compensation by the PLO, and turned into a military depot. "You ask how do we like the Israelis," he said. "Compared to the hell we have had in Lebanon, the Israelis are brothers." Other Lebanese — Christian and Muslim alike — gave similar accounts.

Countless Lebanese told harrowing tales of rape, mutilation and murders committed by PLO forces. The PLO "killed people and threw their corpses in the courtyards. Some of them were mutilated and their limbs were cut off. We did not go out for fear that we might end up like them," said two Arab women from Sidon. "We did not dare go to the beach, because they molested us, weapons in hand." The women spoke of an incident, which occurred shortly before the Israeli invasion, in which PLO men raped and murdered a woman, dumping her body near a famous statue. A picture of the victim's mangled corpse had been printed in a local newspaper.7

Dr. Khalil Torbey, a distinguished Lebanese surgeon, told an American journalist that he was "frequently called in the middle of the night to attend victims of PLO torture. I treated men whose testicles had been cut off in torture sessions. The victims, more often than not, were...Muslims. I saw men — live men — dragged through the streets by fast-moving cars to which they were tied by their feet."8

New York Times correspondent David Shipler visited Damour, a Christian village near Beirut, which had been occupied by the PLO since 1976, when Palestinians and Lebanese leftists sacked the city and massacred hundreds of its inhabitants. The PLO, Shipler wrote, had turned the town into a military base, "using its churches as strongholds and armories" (New York Times, June 21, 1982).

When the IDF drove the PLO out of Damour in June 1982, Prime Minister Menachem Begin announced that the town's Christian residents could come home and rebuild. Returning villagers found their former homes littered with spray-painted Palestinian nationalist slogans, Fatah literature and posters of Yasser Arafat. They told Shipler how happy they were that Israel had liberated them.9

MYTH

“Israel's operation to end the PLO threats to northern Israel resulted in 10,000 deaths and 600,000 homeless in south Lebanon.”

FACT

"It is clear to anyone who has traveled in southern Lebanon, as have many journalists and relief workers, that the original figures of 10,000 dead and 600,000 homeless...were extreme exaggerations," wrote the New York Times' David Shipler, a sharp critic of the Israeli war effort.10

The 600,000 homeless figure originated in mid-June 1982 with the Palestine Red Crescent, headed by Yasser Arafat's brother Fathi. Francesco Noseda of the International Committee of the Red Cross, who had originally used the bogus number, later repudiated it.11

Of course, there would have been zero dead or homeless if the PLO hadn't used south Lebanon as a base from which to menace Israel.

MYTH

“The PLO was willing to leave Beirut in the summer of 1982 to save the civilian population from further attack, but Israel made this impossible.”

FACT

For more than a month, the PLO proved itself intransigent, trying to extract a political victory from its military defeat. Arafat declared his willingness "in principle" to leave Beirut, then refused to go to any other country. Throughout the siege, the PLO hid behind innocent civilians, calculating that if Israel were to attack, it would be internationally condemned. That is precisely what happened.

By mid-June, Israeli troops had surrounded 6,000-9,000 terrorists who had taken up positions amid the civilian population of West Beirut. To prevent civilian casualties, Israel agreed to a ceasefire to enable an American diplomat, Ambassador Philip Habib, to mediate a peaceful PLO withdrawal from Lebanon. As a gesture of flexibility, Israel agreed to permit PLO forces to leave Beirut with their personal weapons.12 But the PLO continued to make new demands.

For weeks, the PLO talked about withdrawal, while attaching conditions that made it impossible. The PLO adopted a strategy of controlled violations of the cease-fire, with the purpose of inflicting casualties on Israel and provoking Israeli retaliation sufficient to get the IDF blamed for disrupting the negotiations and harming civilians.

"The Israelis bombed buildings, innocent looking on the outside, where their intelligence told them that PLO offices were hidden," wrote Middle East analyst Joshua Muravchik. "Their intelligence also told them of the huge network of underground PLO storage facilities for arms and munitions that was later uncovered by the Lebanese Army. No doubt the Israelis dropped some bombs hoping to penetrate those facilities and detonate the dumps. The PLO had both artillery and anti-aircraft [equipment] truck mounted. These would fire at the Israelis and then move."13 The Israelis would fire back and sometimes miss, inadvertently hitting civilian targets.

In numerous instances, the media mistakenly reported that Israel was hitting civilian targets in areas where no military ones were nearby. On one night in July, Israeli shells hit seven embassies in Beirut. NBC aired a report that appeared to lend credence to PLO claims it had no military positions in the area. Israel, Muravchik noted, "soon released reconnaissance photos showing the embassy area honeycombed with tanks, mortars, heavy machine guns and anti-aircraft positions."14

MYTH

“Israel was responsible for the massacre of thousands of innocent Palestinian refugees at Sabra and Shatila.”

FACT

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.15

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians.16 The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.17

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."18

Recently, efforts have been made in Belgium to try Sharon for his role in what happened in Lebanon. The appellate court there, however, threw out the case.[fn Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty, (June 26, 2002).] The European campaign appears designed to smear Israel in general, and Sharon in particular, and is particularly odious given that Israel's own democratic judicial institutions already dealt with this tragedy.

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000 people, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed — the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.19 These killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.19a

MYTH

“Israel's 1978 and 1982 invasions of Lebanon proved its aggressive intentions.”

FACT

Israel has long sought a peaceful northern border. But Lebanon's position as a haven for terrorist groups has made this impossible. In March 1978, PLO terrorists infiltrated Israel. After murdering an American tourist walking near an Israeli beach, they hijacked a civilian bus. When Israeli troops intercepted the bus, the terrorists opened fire. A total of 34 hostages died in the attack. In response, Israeli forces crossed into Lebanon and overran terrorist bases in the southern part of that country, pushing the terrorists away from the border. The IDF withdrew after two months, allowing UN forces to enter. But UN troops were unable to prevent terrorists from reinfiltrating the region and introducing new, more dangerous arms. It was this buildup that led to Israel's 1982 invasion.

Jerusalem repeatedly stressed that Israel did not covet a single inch of Lebanese territory. Israel's 1985 withdrawal from Lebanon confirmed that. The small 1,000-man Israeli force, deployed in a strip of territory extending eight miles into south Lebanon, protected towns and villages in northern Israel from attack. Israel also repeatedly said it would completely withdraw from Lebanon in return for a stable security situation on its northern border.

Israel pulled all its troops out of southern Lebanon on May 24, 2000, ending a 22-year military presence there. The Israeli withdrawal was conducted in coordination with the UN, and, according to the UN, constituted Israeli fulfillment of its obligations under Security Council Resolution 425 (1978).

Israel hoped the Lebanese government would subsequently deploy its army along the southern border to disarm terrorists and maintain order, but this has not occurred, despite criticism from the United States, the UN and Israel.20 “From a point northward, we make the rules,” said Lebanese Defense Minister Khalil Hrawi, “and from a certain point on in the south, there is no presence of the armed forces, and the Hizballah coordinates their actions with themselves."21 Thus, Hizballah continues to enjoy free reign and threaten Israel's northern border.







MYTH

“Israel still has not satisfied the UN's requirements to withdraw completely from Lebanon because of its illegal occupation of Shebaa Farms.”

FACT

Despite the UN ruling that Israel completed its withdrawal from southern Lebanon,22 Hizballah and the Lebanese government insist that Israel still holds Lebanese territory in eastern Mount Dov, a 100-square-mile, largely uninhabited patch called Shebaa Farms. This claim provides Hizballah with a pretext to continue its activities against Israel. Thus, after kidnapping three Israeli soldiers in that area, it announced that they were captured on Lebanese soil.

Israel, which has built a series of observation posts on strategic hilltops in the area, maintains that the land was captured from Syria; nevertheless, the Syrians have supported Hizballah's claim. According to the Washington Post, the controversy benefits each of the Arab parties. "For Syria, it means Hizballah can still be used to keep the Israelis off balance; for Lebanon, it provides a way to apply pressure over issues, like the return of Lebanese prisoners still held in Israeli jails. For Hezbollah, it is a reason to keep its militia armed and active, providing a ready new goal for a resistance movement that otherwise had nothing left to resist."23



“If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine...[Jews] can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.”
— Hezbollah spokesperson Hassan Ezzedin23a



MYTH

“Israel launched an unprovoked attack on UN peacekeeping forces in Lebanon.”

FACT

In April 1995, the IDF mounted "Operation Grapes of Wrath" to halt Hizballah's bombardment of Israel's northern frontier. During the operation, Israeli artillery mistakenly hit a UN base in Kafr Kana, killing nearly 100 civilians. Afterward, a Joint Monitoring Machinery, including American, French, Syrian and Lebanese representatives, was created to prohibit unprovoked attacks on civilian populations and the use of civilians as shields for terrorist activities.

"Sluggy"
Nov 12th, 2004, 04:42 PM
Thanks for all that info - i have to read that again later when i have more time. It sounds like you are well read on this issue, and that it is on the level!

tfannis
Nov 12th, 2004, 05:08 PM
:lol: You should mention a source when copy/paste stuff.

It can't be IsraelActivism.com you used, can it? ;)
http://www.israelactivism.com/resources/factsheets/factsheets/israel_lebanon.asp
Because that's not a very neutral source when it comes to the Israelian/Palestinian conflict :tape:

What happened in Sabra and Chatila is a genocide and Sharon was ok with it. That's a fact for you.

Justeenium
Nov 12th, 2004, 05:19 PM
:lol: You should mention a source when copy/paste stuff.

It can't be IsraelActivism.com you used, can it? ;)
http://www.israelactivism.com/resources/factsheets/factsheets/israel_lebanon.asp
Because that's not a very neutral source when it comes to the Israelian/Palestinian conflict :tape:

What happened in Sabra and Chatila is a genocide and Sharon was ok with it. That's a fact for you.

Actually I got it from the jewish virtuallibrary, but just because a site is biased doesn't mean the information is not correct.

Let me repost a key sentence from the passage

Of course, there would have been zero dead or homeless if the PLO hadn't used south Lebanon as a base from which to menace Israel.

tfannis
Nov 12th, 2004, 05:42 PM
The information on that side is biased, totaly one sided and no material for this discussion.

So as for your sentence. Killing thousands of innocent people can not be justified in any way. The children who didn't survive that genocide weren't active members of the PLO nor were they accidentaly killed. Therefor this was an act of terror, in which Sharon has a great responsability.

The Palestinian/Israelian conflict is one of never ending revenge. Terrorist attacks from the Palestinian side wouldn't occur if they were given their own land. The innocent killed accidentaly when looking for Hamas-members by Israelian troops wouldn't be dead if Palestinians would stop their terrorist attacks. Terrorist attacks from the Palestinian side wouldn't occur if they were given their own land. The innocent killed accidentaly when looking for Hamas-members by Israelian troops wouldn't be dead if Palestinians would stop their terrorist attacks. And so on.

wayitis
Nov 12th, 2004, 05:51 PM
How can you say those genocides were to be blamed only on Lebanon when it was Israel's invasion of a sovereign state that allowed the conditions for these massacres to occur? Sure, the Lebanese Christina militias were the hand that did it, but the Israeli Army let them in the camps even though they knew what was about to happen... even Israeli independent panels admitted to such and condemned the involvement of the Israeli Army in Sabra and Chatila...