PDA

View Full Version : Question About 2 Specific American Law Schools


Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:45 AM
Can anybody who knows anything about law schools in the States throw me a bone here?

I'm looking at program at a Canadian university where you do to years in Canada and two years at either:

Michigan State College of Law: http://www.law.msu.edu/index.php
American University Washington College of Law: http://www.wcl.american.edu/

and end up with 2 degrees, one from each school.

I just want to know if these US schools BLOW or not. By BLOW I just mean... like, third teir, nobody-will-hire-you crap schools ;)

I probably won't even go to the school that offers the program, but it would be useful to know for my own information.

Thanks.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:52 AM
Yes, I had neglected to mention that to you. I decided that I need to continue to borrow from the government and amass as large a debt as possible. That, and what else am I going to do with my Bachelors degree? Wipe asses for a living?

I'll probably write my LSAT next October, but if I'm ready I'll write it in June. Then I'll apply in the fall to a few places. Unless I blow my grades over the next two semester. In which case, nevermind.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:01 AM
What did I tell you last time? That I wanted to a princess? Or was I still in my "astronaut" stage then??

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:12 AM
Neither school will "damage" your resume. :p

You need to get good grades though if you're looking to be competitive in the market upon graduation. You've got to go to a top 25-30 if you're going to just be an average student (the Kiwi path to success).

I'd pick AU over MSU if you don't intend to practice in the Michigan area. :angel: American U foriegn students get away with pleading "I thought it was just as good as Georgetown". You can't pull that stuff with MSU. :tape:

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:16 AM
American University Washington College of Law: http://www.wcl.american.edu/
This is the better of the two.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:17 AM
Neither school will "damage" your resume. :p

You need to get good grades though if you're looking to be competitive in the market upon graduation. You've got to go to a top 25-30 if you're going to just be an average student (the Kiwi path to success).

I'd pick AU over MSU if you don't intend to practice in the Michigan area. :angel: American U foriegn students get away with pleading "I thought it was just as good as Georgetown". You can't pull that stuff with MSU. :tape:

Thanks. I thought that you'd be of some use :devil:

I don't know if/when/where I want to practice law, but I thought it was worth investigating these programs since obviously, there is more opportunity if you have both degrees.

These - and another program that runs with Detroit (ew) - are my only options, since you get to pay CAN tution fees. I couldn't afford to even look at a school in the states otherwise :scared:

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:19 AM
American University Washington College of Law: http://www.wcl.american.edu/
This is the better of the two.
Thanks :wavey:

Tammy
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Um MSU has is known for its good graduate programs- but im afraid their law school isn't really one of them ;) - though they have had supreme court justice, in addition to a handful of various judges that came out of the Law school that im aware of.. its shockingly a tier 3 or 4 :o + the city isn't that great imo..

- American University has a decent Law school - I believe it was ranked in the top 50 law schools in the country and is a tier 1 - so i believe thatd be your best bet ;)

MisterQ
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:19 AM
sounds like a cool deal, the 2 years in each country. good luck with that, Rebecca. :) (I can't advise you, I'm just an impoverished musician... ;) )

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:22 AM
Thanks Tammy :wavey:

MisterQ - yeah, it's a nice idea. Actually uh, getting into Canadian law school is the first step. I shot myself in the foot by sucking so hard my first two years so now I'm a big stress ball trying to make up for it. ;)

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:26 AM
Thanks. I thought that you'd be of some use :devil:

I don't know if/when/where I want to practice law, but I thought it was worth investigating these programs since obviously, there is more opportunity if you have both degrees.

These - and another program that runs with Detroit (ew) - are my only options, since you get to pay CAN tution fees. I couldn't afford to even look at a school in the states otherwise :scared:
Just remember this...

...Law School Sucks...

...the best thing about Law School is finishing it...

...but once you're finished you'll realize its the best education you'll ever have...

...and your friends will want to kill you because you'll never answer a question with the words "yes" or "no" again. :lol: :lol: :tape:

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:29 AM
Just remember this...

...Law School Sucks...

...the best thing about Law School is finishing it...

...but once you're finished you'll realize its the best education you'll ever have...

...and your friends will want to kill you because you'll never answer a question with the words "yes" or "no" again. :lol: :lol: :tape:

Yes, I've heard that it's a horrible painful process. A woman that I met last time I was in Manhatten told me that indeed, finishing was the best part, and that it's the only thing in her life that she would never want to go through again. That's okay. I don't want to lose brain cells wiping bums for a living with my Bachelors degree, so I'm willing to endure some serious suck for a while.

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:33 AM
Just remember this...

...Law School Sucks...

...the best thing about Law School is finishing it...

...but once you're finished you'll realize its the best education you'll ever have...

...and your friends will want to kill you because you'll never answer a question with the words "yes" or "no" again. :lol: :lol: :tape:
Really, I loved law school. It was the best thing I've ever done in my life. The work is not hard, it's just voluminous. At least the first year. ;) The second year, the work gets harder and it's just as voluminous. The third year is all about clinics, some required courses and the bar. The hardest thing you'll ever do is pass the bar. Law school is a breeze compared to the bar. :p

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:35 AM
Yes, I've heard that it's a horrible painful process. A woman that I met last time I was in Manhatten told me that indeed, finishing was the best part, and that it's the only thing in her life that she would never want to go through again. That's okay. I don't want to lose brain cells wiping bums for a living with my Bachelors degree, so I'm willing to endure some serious suck for a while.
What I don't ever want to do again is take another bar exam. The Texas, California and NY bar are the hardest in the country. I took the Texas and that's a painful experience. That was 14 years ago and I hear it's gotten harder.

Tennis Fool
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:41 AM
Well, I can't tell you about the schools, but I have lived in both areas. Do you like cows, long roads, beautiful fall trees and lots of snow? Then East Lansing may be the place for you. Not close to any metro area (well, in Michigan, there is only Detroit).

Washington DC is a great, clean metro city with a slow-Southern feel. Lots of activites. Warmer in the summer and winter.

Up to you. Feeling more urban or country?

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:50 AM
Really, I loved law school. It was the best thing I've ever done in my life. The work is not hard, it's just voluminous. At least the first year. ;) The second year, the work gets harder and it's just as voluminous. The third year is all about clinics, some required courses and the bar. The hardest thing you'll ever do is pass the bar. Law school is a breeze compared to the bar. :p
Well I'm one of those people who never had to actually do all the studying that my peers had to do to get the same grades so "voluminious" and "actually have to do the shit" and "professor not explaining the shit, just asking more questions (the socratic method in a nutshell)" all combined for a big ole suck fest!!! :lol: :lol: :tape:

Funny, I agree with your description of the process but not the conclusion. First year sucks but you've got enthusiasm. Second year sucks even more and you feel like a battered spouse. :( And third year sucks until you've can convince your classmates that you've got a job lined up upon graduation (then its fun times and networking).

I loved preparing for the Bar Exam. It might have been the first time I actually understood Torts (for those of you that don't know, Torts is supposed to be the easiest class in Law School) :retard: :retard: :retard: ; and I did okay in Torts just missed some important "linkage of concepts".

The only thing I don't like about the Bar Exam is that essay questions are graded in a "subjective manner". Among my peers it seemed that the better you did on the multi-state the better they graded your essays and we all IRAC'ed the shit the same way. :shrug:

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:00 AM
Well I'm one of those people who never had to actually do all the studying that my peers had to do to get the same grades so "voluminious" and "actually have to do the shit" and "professor not explaining the shit, just asking more questions (the socratic method in a nutshell)" all combined for a big ole suck fest!!! :lol: :lol: :tape:

Sheesh, how did you get away with that?? Canned briefs? :p :lol: All of my profs knew when you were using canned briefs so that didn't fly. I was so afraid of being called on and embarrassed that I did everything. :p It got easier second year though. I just book briefed. In the third year, I didn't read for class at all. :lol:

Funny, I agree with your description of the process but not the conclusion. First year sucks but you've got enthusiasm. Second year sucks even more and you feel like a battered spouse. :( And third year sucks until you've can convince your classmates that you've got a job lined up upon graduation (then its fun times and networking).

:lol:

I loved preparing for the Bar Exam. UGH!! :p

It might have been the first time I actually understood Torts (for those of you that don't know, Torts is supposed to be the easiest class in Law School) :retard: :retard: :retard: ; and I did okay in Torts just missed some important "linkage of concepts".

Let me guess, the causal connection. :lol:

The only thing I don't like about the Bar Exam is that essay questions are graded in a "subjective manner". Among my peers it seemed that the better you did on the multi-state the better they graded your essays and we all IRAC'ed the shit the same way. :shrug:

That was true here in Texas. If you kicked ass on the multi-state, they didn't even look at your essays. If I passed, I KNOW they didn't look at mine. :lol: Especially on the oil and gas question (required in Texas), since I didn't take that class in school. IRAC is the way to go, LOL.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:07 AM
I don't even entirely understand WHAT the Bar is, aside from the fact that you need to write the bloody thing and pass it in order to practice in a certain area.

Want to give me a run down? :angel:

Rtael
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:13 AM
Go to Michigan. Cause Michigan is da bomb. Period.


Disclaimer: The previous statement might have sometime to do with the fact that Michigan was my place of birth. End disclaimer.

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:20 AM
I don't even entirely understand WHAT the Bar is, aside from the fact that you need to write the bloody thing and pass it in order to practice in a certain area.

Want to give me a run down? :angel:
It's a comprehensive exam of everything you learned in law school. It's three days and you have to pass it in whatever state or states you intend to practice law in. Upon passing, you get a license to practice law in that particular state. Some states have reciprocity where if you are licensed in one state, they will accept your license to practice in their state. The exam is composed of three components. At least it was when I took it in Texas. Other states can be different. For example, Pennsylvania only has a multi-state part, at least that's what I heard about it 14 years ago. It may have changed since then. In Texas, the first part is the multi-state part (multiple choice questions) that encompasses common law used in all the states (except Louisiana). This part takes about 6 hours (if I remember correctly) The second part is the essay part, where you write an essay for each question. (Same amount of time as the multi-state). The third part is the short answer part encompassing Texas law, e.g. civil procedure, etc.. This part takes about 4 hours.

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:32 AM
Nice. And I thought the LSAT sounded like fun ;)

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:00 AM
Sheesh, how did you get away with that?? Canned briefs? :p :lol: All of my profs knew when you were using canned briefs so that didn't fly. I was so afraid of being called on and embarrassed that I did everything. :p It got easier second year though. I just book briefed. In the third year, I didn't read for class at all. :lol:

Let me guess, the causal connection. :lol:

IRAC is the way to go, LOL.
First semester I tried to get by with Legallines (and other canned briefs :o :o :tape: ; yes you guessed the "causal connection") but eventually I fell in line with the nerd herd and started highlighting the text books in multiple colors (orange was the stuff that I needed to read again in the "study days" before exams. :banghead: ). I still highlight stuff in orange before staff meetings. :explode:

Our evil profs always told us not to IRAC ("originality earns you an A") but the only way to defend your answers after the fact is to "secretly" IRAC anyway. At my school you had to show in the exam that you not only read the book, but that you had a little Gilberts, a little "professor's personal legal theory" :rolleyes: , and at least one concept from an obscure hornbook mentioned in the footnotes of some handout the teacher passed out first day of class...

... Damn, I'm starting to get a headache just thinking about that stuff. :timebomb:

By second semester 3rd year it didn't matter anymore so I just IRAC'ed, then made a bullshit argument contrary to the professor's personal legal theory and then ordered a round for my buddies at the pub. :drink: :drink: :drink:

Becca just in case you don't know IRAC is just.

I = issue spotting (the more issues spotted the better)
R= rule application (where you show what you know)
A=analysis (where the prof decides if you're going to get an A or a B; on the exam you can write a paragraph or a book and say the exact same thing. Just hope you guess correctly which one your prof wants. :devil: )
C=conclusion (where you make your little joke that shows you did the extra reading assignments).

In the real world if you can correctly IRAC a problem you've done your job; in law school you can correctly IRAC a problem and still get a C+ depending on the mood of the professor.

DeDe4925
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:06 AM
First semester I tried to get by with Legallines (and other canned briefs :o :o :tape: ; yes you guessed the "causal connection") but eventually I fell in line with the nerd herd and started highlighting the text books in multiple colors (orange was the stuff that I needed to read again in the "study days" before exams. :banghead: ). I still highlight stuff in orange before staff meetings. :explode:

:lol:

Our evil profs always told us not to IRAC ("originality earns you an A") but the only way to defend your answers after the fact is to "secretly" IRAC anyway. At my school you had to show in the exam that you not only read the book, but that you had a little Gilberts, a little "professor's personal legal theory" :rolleyes: , and at least one concept from an obscure hornbook mentioned in the footnotes of some handout the teacher passed out first day of class...

Wow, we were encouraged to IRAC.

... Damn, I'm starting to get a headache just thinking about that stuff. :timebomb:

By second semester 3rd year it didn't matter anymore so I just IRAC'ed, then made a bullshit argument contrary to the professor's personal legal theory and then ordered a round for my buddies at the pub. :drink: :drink: :drink:

You are too funny. :haha:

Becca just in case you don't know IRAC is just.

I = issue spotting (the more issues spotted the better)
R= rule application (where you show what you know)
A=analysis (where the prof decides if you're going to get an A or a B; on the exam you can write a paragraph or a book and say the exact same thing. Just hope you guess correctly which one your prof wants. :devil: )
C=conclusion (where you make your little joke that shows you did the extra reading assignments).

In the real world if you can correctly IRAC a problem you've done your job; in law school you can correctly IRAC a problem and still get a C+ depending on the mood of the professor.

So true, so true.

Experimentee
Nov 10th, 2004, 01:05 PM
I dont know, maybe its different in the US, but I really enjoy Law School, and I've been doing it for 3 years! I think you should do it, you'll enjoy it and you'll expand your career opportunities a lot. That program sounds good, two degrees from only 4 years sounds like a cheat though :o

Crazy Canuck
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:51 PM
I imagine that our legal systems are kind of similar which is why it's possible, although I'm not entirely positive about that. I also would imagine that it's even more work than the regular program.

Cybelle Darkholme
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:02 PM
What I don't ever want to do again is take another bar exam. The Texas, California and NY bar are the hardest in the country. I took the Texas and that's a painful experience. That was 14 years ago and I hear it's gotten harder.The only state I know of that does not require the bar is wisconsin (guess where i'm living now!). Lousiana is the only state which uses the code Napoleon which is fun stuff!

I should add that basically the napoleonic code is gone by the wayside. With things like the UCC there is hardly any practical difference at all.

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Can anybody who knows anything about law schools in the States throw me a bone here?

I'm looking at program at a Canadian university where you do to years in Canada and two years at either:

Michigan State College of Law: http://www.law.msu.edu/index.php
American University Washington College of Law: http://www.wcl.american.edu/

and end up with 2 degrees, one from each school.

I just want to know if these US schools BLOW or not. By BLOW I just mean... like, third teir, nobody-will-hire-you crap schools ;)

I probably won't even go to the school that offers the program, but it would be useful to know for my own information.

Thanks.Actually, University of Michigan has a far better law school than either

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:56 PM
I would recommend getting in touch with the American Bar Association as they will be more informative as far as the quality of law schools

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Though I have to admit that I do have an Uncle that went to law school at MSU and he did quite well

Tammy
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:59 PM
er where the hell in lansing/east lansing did you live at? :o - there are no farms located in lansing or east lansing besides those in affiliation with the school of Ag with michigan state university :scratch: - you make it sound like she'll be living out in the country with dirt roads and tons of farmland etc :haha: - which isnt the case at all its a normal city ..

.. the town is decent, just not to my liking since i come from a much larger city basically, but indeed the campus is extremely beautiful and quite large.. and in some cases overwhelming for many of the international students/transfers..

Well, I can't tell you about the schools, but I have lived in both areas. Do you like cows, long roads, beautiful fall trees and lots of snow? Then East Lansing may be the place for you. Not close to any metro area (well, in Michigan, there is only Detroit).

Up to you. Feeling more urban or country?

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Lansing is a decent city.....far better than Detroit! And it is just up the road from Ann Arbor!

Tammy
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:06 PM
it is indeed - detroit just gives me the creeps and its pretty much a piece of shit! .. they nead to renovate a majority of the city!.. I got a job offer after I complete my degree from a company there but i cant see myself living somewhere that gives me the creeps :o

- id have to shell out alot more money and opt for a place in the suburbs or sth :lol: - or better yet .. finally get the hell out of michigan :devil:


Lansing is a decent city.....far better than Detroit! And it is just up the road from Ann Arbor!

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:19 PM
But Becca does presently live in a small comunity and attends a Cow College!

Tennis Fool
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:39 PM
er where the hell in lansing/east lansing did you live at? :o - there are no farms located in lansing or east lansing besides those in affiliation with the school of Ag with michigan state university :scratch: - you make it sound like she'll be living out in the country with dirt roads and tons of farmland etc :haha: - which isnt the case at all its a normal city ..

.. the town is decent, just not to my liking since i come from a much larger city basically, but indeed the campus is extremely beautiful and quite large.. and in some cases overwhelming for many of the international students/transfers..
Becca is from Toronto. East Lansing will feel like farmland to her. And yes, there is nothing but cows in the area. Sorry if you disagree.

Tennis Fool
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Lansing is a decent city.....far better than Detroit! And it is just up the road from Ann Arbor!
Yeah, up the road about 3 hours :rolleyes:

Tennis Fool
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:41 PM
But since she hasn't responded to my thoughts, she's entitled to visit :)

Helen Lawson
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Well, hon, one of my granddaughters was looking around at law schools a couple of years ago. I got involved because, let's face it, who do you think is PAYING for her law school? Yours truly, babe, the National Bank of Helen Lawson.

Neither blows, but neither is that great either. They're both pretty regional, meaning much out of DC, American won't get you a decent job and MSU won't do much for you outside of Michigan and nearby states. I'm not sure that's your concern, but if so, that's the deal. Also, look at the specialties or programs they offer so you'll actually be taking classes in areas of interest to you. I imagine there's a more international emphasis at American. I don't know what MSU would have that's special. I wouldn't say these are great schools, but they're not embarassing or "blow" as you have inquired.

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Yeah, up the road about 3 hours :rolleyes:Ann Arbor to Lansing is like less than an hour! Lansing to Detroit is like 3 hrs!:rolleyes:

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:42 PM
US 23 runs between the 2

Tennis Fool
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Ann Arbor to Lansing is like less than an hour! Lansing to Detroit is like 3 hrs!:rolleyes:
Ann Arbor is 1 hour away from Detroit :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Barrie_Dude
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Ann Arbor is 1 hour away from Detroit :rolleyes: :rolleyes:On I 94 and Ann Arbor is about 1 hr from Lansing on US 23

Tammy
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Guys
- Ann Arbor is about an hr away from lansing
- Detroit is about 1 1/2 hrs away from lansing
- Ann Arbor is 50 mins from Detroit

*now play nice an behave :p



- and once again - you clearly were not living in lansing then because it is not country :rolleyes: .. yes there are farmlands around in other smaller cities etc, but that is the case for almost every "decent" sized city in michigan.. *sigh*
- and as far as her being from a large city - guess what im sure she experienced visiting "smaller" cities before - didn't know smaller city automatically = country :rolleyes:

Barrie_Dude
Nov 15th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Becca? Have you decided?