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Volcana
Nov 10th, 2004, 01:28 AM
Of course, this is just one author's take on the subject. But it IS interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11183-2004Oct30.html

America, Wake Up to the European Dream



By Jeremy Rifkin
Sunday, October 31, 2004; Page B04



Europe: We love to vacation there, if we can afford it. It's the cultural mecca many of us flock to, to awaken our senses and feed our souls. But Europe as a political entity? To Americans, it's just a creaky old set of governments presiding over a moribund economy marked by inflexible labor policies, bloated welfare bureaucracies and an aging, pampered populace. It's the state of Eurosclerosis, right?

Not anymore. Toss out that image of Europe as relic. On Friday, the heads of the 25 member nations of the European Union signed the European Constitution (to be ratified over the next two years by each state), effectively creating the first transnational political entity in history. These "United States of Europe" represent the rise of a new ideal that could eclipse the United States as the focus of the world's yearnings for well-being and prosperity. Yet our country is largely unaware of and unprepared for the vast changes that are quickly transforming the Old World and giving birth to what I call the new European Dream.


The old dream, the American Dream that made the individual the master of his fate and emphasized the personal accumulation of wealth, is faltering. A national survey taken in 2001 showed that one-third of all Americans no longer believe in the American Dream, either because it has failed them, or because they believe that in an increasingly interdependent world, it no longer works. Even the most self-reliant among us are vulnerable to phenomena beyond our control: a SARS epidemic, a terrorist attack, global warming. In this sort of world, the European Dream, with its emphasis on inclusivity, diversity, sustainable development and interconnectedness, is the world's first attempt at creating a global consciousness. And it deserves our close attention.

If you want a sense of the strength of this new vision, talk to the young adults of Europe. They're a new breed, increasingly choosing to remain on their continent rather than migrate to America, once a hope for many, especially in Eastern Europe. For them, the continent is no longer a world of warring states, walled-off cities and guards at every border, but a wide-open region where old economic, political and cultural barriers are breaking down, leading to new opportunities and new ways of thinking.

A young German woman I recently met had just completed a year studying in Spain on the EU's Erasmus exchange program, which has sponsored more than a million intra-European exchange students since 1987. She told me she now has close friends all over the continent. "We constantly visit each other, often work and vacation together, and date one another," she said. In contrast to their post-war-generation parents, who still harbor prejudices against Europeans of other nationalities, she and her friends are positive toward each other and optimistic about Europe's future, she said. A 2001 survey showed that one-third of Europeans between the ages of 21 and 35 said they regard themselves "as more European than as nationals of their home country."

There are lots of reasons for their optimism. We Americans still think of our country as the most successful on Earth, but the EU is now a close rival. With its 455 million consumers, it's the largest internal market in the world, and the largest exporting power. And the euro is now stronger than the dollar -- a reality few American economists considered possible just four years ago.

The EU's growing economic clout has humbled once all-powerful U.S. businesses. The union has blocked mergers between American companies (General Electric and Honeywell), fined Microsoft on antitrust grounds and stymied attempts by U.S. businesses to introduce genetically modified food into Europe.

In many of the world's leading industries, European transnational companies dominate. European financial institutions are the world's bankers. Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European, and European businesses lead in the chemical, engineering and construction, aerospace and insurance industries, as well as the food wholesale and retail trades. Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies.

Beyond this burgeoning economy, which is bound to draw capital and people to Europe in ever greater numbers, Europe also offers significant quality-of-life advantages. In terms of wealth distribution -- a crucial measure of a country's ability to deliver on the promise of prosperity -- the United States ranks 24th in the world; all 18 of the most developed European countries rank higher, with less income inequality than we have. There are now more poor people living in America than in the 16 European nations for which data is available. And America's homicide rate is four times that of Europe. My European friends can't understand why so many Americans have guns; they find the phenomenon frightening.

Why these differences exist has to do, I believe, with the nature of the dream on each side of the Atlantic. Both are anchored in the ideal of personal freedom. But each defines that freedom differently. Americans have always associated freedom with autonomy, and autonomy with property. The wealthier you are, the more independent you are, and the more secure you are. Europeans find freedom not in autonomy, but in embeddedness. For most Europeans, the community's quality of life is more important than individual financial success. The more communities you join, the more options you have for living a full and meaningful life. Belonging -- not belongings -- is what brings security.

My European friends are far less consumed with possessions than most Americans I know, and they spend much more time with one another. It's not uncommon for family and friends to talk for four or five hours over dinner or drinks. Like many Americans, I often get antsy in these marathon sessions, but it's all part of the European sense of togetherness.

Europeans often remark that Americans "live to work," while they "work to live." Although the demands of globalization mean that Europeans have to work somewhat harder than they used to, they still get an average of five weeks' paid vacation a year, where Americans get two. And the European Dream understands the value of leisure and even idleness. In Europe, no one seems to be in a hurry to "get somewhere." A European colleague once admonished me: "The problem with you Americans is that you are unable to surrender to the moment and wait to see what pleasant experience might come your way." He has a point. Most Americans, myself included, believe that happiness isn't something that comes to us, but something we must forever work toward. Most Europeans simply don't feel that way.

Where the American Dream emphasizes economic growth, the European Dream focuses on sustainable development. Environmental awareness is much higher in Europe than in America, even if sustainable development is beginning to make inroads here as well. Compared to us, Europeans are fanatical about conserving energy. When I stay in a major hotel in Europe, I have to insert my card key into a slot to turn the lights on in my room. When I leave, I retrieve my key from the slot and the lights automatically turn off. Similarly, when I approach an escalator in most airports, it doesn't begin to move until a light beam signals my presence.

Europeans accept heavy taxes on gasoline and opt for smaller cars to save energy and reduce the effects of global warming. America consumes nearly one-third more energy than the 15 most developed EU countries, even though they have a combined population that's nearly 100 million more than the United States'.

The American Dream depends on assimilation, but the European Dream is based on nations' preserving their cultural identity and coming together in a multicultural universe. The EU's inhabitants break down into 100 or more different languages and dialects, making the region one of the most culturally diverse in the world.
The American Dream is wedded to love of country and patriotism; the European Dream is more cosmopolitan and outward-reaching. Europeans now provide 47 percent of all the humanitarian assistance in the world. (The United States contributes 36 percent.) While Americans are willing to use military force to protect our self-interests, Europeans favor diplomacy and economic aid to avert conflict.

Of course, Europe hasn't suddenly become Shangri-La. For all their talk of preserving cultural identity, Europeans have become increasingly hostile toward newly arrived immigrants and asylum seekers from other parts of the world -- even as their continent becomes more attractive to these very people. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again, as is discrimination against Muslims and other religious minorities.
For the European Union itself, many difficulties remain, including integrating the 10 new Central, Eastern and Southern European member states, whose economies lag far behind the wealthier Western and Northern members. The EU's governing machinery in Brussels is a maze of bureaucratic red tape, and its officials are often accused of being aloof and unresponsive to the needs of the European citizens they supposedly serve.

But the point is not whether the Europeans are living up to their dream. We Americans have never fully lived up to our own. What's important is that Europe has articulated a new vision for the future that differs from ours in fundamental ways. Romano Prodi, the president of the European Commission, has admitted that the EU's goal is to establish "a superpower on the European continent that stands equal to the United States." When I asked him to explain what he meant, he spoke of the European vision as one of a new type of power, based not on military strength but on economic cooperation and the construction of communities of conscience, a new kind of superpower based on waging peace.

Utopian as it sounds, remember that 200 years ago, America's founders created a new dream for humanity that transformed the world. Today, a new generation of Europeans is creating a radical, and worthy, new dream.

Author's e-mail: jrifkin@foet.org

Jeremy Rifkin, president of the Foundation on Economic Trends in Washington, is the author of "The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream" (Tarcher/Penguin).

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:55 AM
I love how ambitionless, low expectation having, Europeans travelling in Europe and studying in Europe and interacting in Europe is seen as progress :lol:

When Europeans do that shit in Africa, I'll give a "high five" to real progress :p

We Americans have never lived up to our dream?

Speak for yourself.

From Slavery to Moonshiners to College Educated to Graduate Degrees and Bossing around people with college educations to ME.

That's the American Reality of my African American Family.

Europe has already tried to rule the world, now they're just settling for trying to rule themselves...

...and I doubt that will last.

As long as Germans are German, the English are English and the French are French the EU is just one slip in the balance of power from going back to the old days. :devil:

America ain't perfect but following those that don't like us anyway ain't the way to go. We have work to do but they have a hell of a lot more work to do just to catch up. :p

We're doing fine (compared to them) "as is".

DutchieGirl
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:58 AM
That was an interesting read! :D

Martian Willow
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:59 AM
We're better than you.

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:05 AM
BNP are the scum of the "no hopers", right Willow? :devil:

Anyway its healthy for everyone to feel they're the best...

...its healthy to look at other systems and ways of doing things...

...and its healthy to question Euro suck ups...

...they usually have an agenda. :tape:

Martian Willow
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:07 AM
Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels. But we are better.

Volcana
Nov 10th, 2004, 04:46 AM
Kiwi - I think you kinda missed the point. They have different values. They aren't 'ambitionless'. They simply want and value different things.

And I don't measure whether or not America has 'lived up to it's dream' by looking the mirror. I measure it by looking at the prisons, where we lock up more people per capita that any other country on Earth. I measure it by looking at hungry kids who don't see a doctor once a year, and people working 80hours a week who still can't send their kids to college.

'lived up to it's dream' means for EVERYBODY. Certainly the way the author used the phrase. And, in case you missed it, 'Europeans travelling in Europe and studying in Europe and interacting in Europe' means they have to interact with 100 million more people than Americans do, and deal with far more languages, races and cultures than most Americans do.

And of course, most Americans 'travel in America, study in America, and do all thier interacting in America'.

Their values aren't yours, any more than Chinese values are yours.

The United States is more rawly Capitalistic than any other 'developed' country. Money the dominant religion here. There are people in the world who look at that model and decide it isn't for them. That isn't a lack of ambition. It's the presence of values outside the monetary.

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:16 AM
I didn't miss the point. They have different values because they have no choice but to have different values. An English buddy of mine would be an actual rocket scientist here in the USA but he's a grade school teacher in the U.K. and he's happy because he believes thats all he's meant to be. Its a stupid Class thing that he buys into. On average, Europeans and Americans approach life from a whole different perspective.

Well if we spoke different languages in different states we'd have the same lame false premise (of being so open to different people) to crow about. That's geography not some special enlightenment. All of my English friends only speak English (with just enough of the other stuff to get along) and all of my Continental friends speak several languages, coincidentally the languages of their nieghbors :p

Euros who speak Chinese or Japanese impress me, speaking another Euro language is usually just a accident of geography. Linguists say you learn the most when you're exposed at a very early age so of course a Continental Euro type is going to speak multiple languages because they need to know them if they're going to travel much more than 50 miles in any given direction. :yawn:

Most Americans travel the same amounts of distance as most Europeans in their life experience. Americans put in a situation where no one speaks English is a rarity that comes from poverty or priviledge.

I know plenty of Americans that don't work very hard and don't make lots of $$$ and play video games and get drunk all weekend and they're ambitionless and happy (G-d bless them :cool: ).

Euros aren't recreating the wheel they're just playing the hand they've been dealt.

Money is only the dominant religion for the ultra haves (who need to keep score), and the have nots (who are friggin' starving). In the middle most Americans are just doing the pursuit of happiness thing.

There will always be poor people, rich people, criminals who belong in prison, and the majority who don't really relate to any of those extremes. If you measure any country by their worst citizens you'll have the same complaints about Germany that you have about the USA. They had crack heads there too last time I checked. :devil:

Fingon
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:22 AM
hmmm, this is too easy, I couldn't resist

Of course, this is just one author's take on the subject. But it IS interesting.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11183-2004Oct30.html

America, Wake Up to the European Dream



By Jeremy Rifkin
Sunday, October 31, 2004; Page B04



Europe: We love to vacation there, if we can afford it. It's the cultural mecca many of us flock to, to awaken our senses and feed our souls. But Europe as a political entity? To Americans, it's just a creaky old set of governments presiding over a moribund economy marked by inflexible labor policies, bloated welfare bureaucracies and an aging, pampered populace. It's the state of Eurosclerosis, right?

well, it is in many cases, although they are trying to change it. Has the author know that for example Volkswagen reached an agreement with the unions freeze salary increases so they could stay in Germany?

Not anymore. Toss out that image of Europe as relic. On Friday, the heads of the 25 member nations of the European Union signed the European Constitution (to be ratified over the next two years by each state), effectively creating the first transnational political entity in history.

and how does change economic structures?

These "United States of Europe" represent the rise of a new ideal that could eclipse the United States as the focus of the world's yearnings for well-being and prosperity.
Europe (part of it) never has been behind in terms of well-being and prosperity, some countries at least. The criticism to european structures never referred to standard of living but to competivity, which hasn't changed.

Yet our country is largely unaware of and unprepared for the vast changes that are quickly transforming the Old World and giving birth to what I call the new European Dream.
the European Union has existed for how long?

The old dream, the American Dream that made the individual the master of his fate and emphasized the personal accumulation of wealth, is faltering. A national survey taken in 2001 showed that one-third of all Americans no longer believe in the American Dream, either because it has failed them, or because they believe that in an increasingly interdependent world, it no longer works.
did the author think that 1/3 of americans were happy before?

Even the most self-reliant among us are vulnerable to phenomena beyond our control: a SARS epidemic, a terrorist attack, global warming.
duh!

In this sort of world, the European Dream, with its emphasis on inclusivity, diversity, sustainable development and interconnectedness, is the world's first attempt at creating a global consciousness. And it deserves our close attention.
only that happened 50 years ago or so.

If you want a sense of the strength of this new vision, talk to the young adults of Europe. They're a new breed, increasingly choosing to remain on their continent rather than migrate to America,

what a piece of crap, Europeans (western europeans) have not been migrating to the US (or anywhere else for that matter) for a long time, why would they?

once a hope for many, especially in Eastern Europe. For them, the continent is no longer a world of warring states, walled-off cities and guards at every border, but a wide-open region where old economic, political and cultural barriers are breaking down, leading to new opportunities and new ways of thinking.

really? I don't think he knows what he is talking about, that openess doesn't apply to the new members, yet, and there are only a few countries from Eastern Europe that were added this year.

A young German woman I recently met had just completed a year studying in Spain on the EU's Erasmus exchange program, which has sponsored more than a million intra-European exchange students since 1987. She told me she now has close friends all over the continent. "We constantly visit each other, often work and vacation together, and date one another," she said. In contrast to their post-war-generation parents, who still harbor prejudices against Europeans of other nationalities, she and her friends are positive toward each other and optimistic about Europe's future, she said.
yes, Europe is a great place to live, but not the only place.

A 2001 survey showed that one-third of Europeans between the ages of 21 and 35 said they regard themselves "as more European than as nationals of their home country."
considering the accuracy of the rest of the article, I beg to differ, especially in the case of Germans.

There are lots of reasons for their optimism. We Americans still think of our country as the most successful on Earth, but the EU is now a close rival. With its 455 million consumers, it's the largest internal market in the world,
it's not, China is with nearly 3 times that population.

and the largest exporting power.
maybe

And the euro is now stronger than the dollar -- a reality few American economists considered possible just four years ago.

well, the German Mark, the Swiss Franc were always stronger than the dollar, stronger doesn't mean worth more, but being more stable, and the Euro is in a great deal modelled in the german mark.
Plus, a strong currency is not necessarily good, it hurts exports, and in the long term causes recession. We are in the middle of a cycle motivated by the large american deficit.

The EU's growing economic clout has humbled once all-powerful U.S. businesses.

really? I would have sweart that I read the growing of most European countries was well below the US and Canada, oh well.

The union has blocked mergers between American companies (General Electric and Honeywell),
and that's surely a sign of progress

fined Microsoft on antitrust grounds
that's in the courts, how many european companies have been fined in the US?

and stymied attempts by U.S. businesses to introduce genetically modified food into Europe.
that was declared illegal by the WTO.


In many of the world's leading industries, European transnational companies dominate. European financial institutions are the world's bankers.

hmmm, really? what about the Japanese?, they are, by far the largest banks in the world, Citigroup is a lot larger than any European bank.

Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European,
it's possible,

and European businesses lead in the chemical,
really? I didn't know Du Pont, Dow Chemical or Monsanto were European.

engineering and construction,
I have no data.

aerospace
really again? Airbus surpassed Boeing in delivering commercial aircraft, but what about military and scientific production? Lockheed Martin, Northop Grumman, Raytheon. If there is a field where the US has superiority is this, that shows the ignorance of the author.

and insurance industries,
interesting, the largest insurer in the world is AIG, american, add Beckshire, MetLife, Prudential, US Life, All Estate, Estate Farm.
European insurance company are large and solid, they have always been, it's not the new Europe.

as well as the food wholesale and retail trades.
really? Wall Mart alone sold 260 billion dollars.


Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies.
and that means...

Beyond this burgeoning economy,

is this guy just an idiot? or is he deliberately misleading readers?

which is bound to draw capital and people to Europe in ever greater numbers,

like from where?

Europe also offers significant quality-of-life advantages.

absolutely, again, what has changed?

In terms of wealth distribution -- a crucial measure of a country's ability to deliver on the promise of prosperity --
whatever that is, never heard of that index before.

the United States ranks 24th in the world; all 18 of the most developed European countries rank higher, with less income inequality than we have.

that has always been the case, countries such as France, German or even the UK have had socialist goverments, something unthinkable in the US, now or ever in its history.

There are now more poor people living in America than in the 16 European nations for which data is available. And America's homicide rate is four times that of Europe. My European friends can't understand why so many Americans have guns; they find the phenomenon frightening.

I don't know what the author calls "America", if it's the US, he is wrong, but to the point, yes, the crime rate in the US is too high, what else is new? if anything, if has disminished.

Why these differences exist has to do, I believe, with the nature of the dream on each side of the Atlantic. Both are anchored in the ideal of personal freedom. But each defines that freedom differently. Americans have always associated freedom with autonomy, and autonomy with property. The wealthier you are, the more independent you are, and the more secure you are. Europeans find freedom not in autonomy, but in embeddedness. For most Europeans, the community's quality of life is more important than individual financial success. The more communities you join, the more options you have for living a full and meaningful life. Belonging -- not belongings -- is what brings security.
different phylosophies, different ideology.

My European friends are far less consumed with possessions than most Americans I know, and they spend much more time with one another. It's not uncommon for family and friends to talk for four or five hours over dinner or drinks. Like many Americans, I often get antsy in these marathon sessions, but it's all part of the European sense of togetherness.

and he bases his conclusion in what his friends do? I can't really tell but I understand that in many European countries, the populations are ageing, because they don't want to marry of have children, surely not the author's friends.

Europeans often remark that Americans "live to work," while they "work to live." Although the demands of globalization mean that Europeans have to work somewhat harder than they used to, they still get an average of five weeks' paid vacation a year,
let's see how long that lasts, read the Volkswagen case.

where Americans get two.
I am in Canada, but I get three.

And the European Dream understands the value of leisure and even idleness. In Europe, no one seems to be in a hurry to "get somewhere."
has he been in London or Paris?

A European colleague once admonished me: "The problem with you Americans is that you are unable to surrender to the moment and wait to see what pleasant experience might come your way." He has a point. Most Americans, myself included, believe that happiness isn't something that comes to us, but something we must forever work toward. Most Europeans simply don't feel that way.

I am sure many americans don't as well.

Where the American Dream emphasizes economic growth, the European Dream focuses on sustainable development.

what's the difference?

Environmental awareness is much higher in Europe than in America,
they care more for the environment, they are not more aware of it.

even if sustainable development is beginning to make inroads here as well. Compared to us, Europeans are fanatical about conserving energy.
maybe because they don't have any?

When I stay in a major hotel in Europe, I have to insert my card key into a slot to turn the lights on in my room. When I leave, I retrieve my key from the slot and the lights automatically turn off. Similarly, when I approach an escalator in most airports, it doesn't begin to move until a light beam signals my presence.

ok, not even worth commenting.

Europeans accept heavy taxes on gasoline and opt for smaller cars to save energy and reduce the effects of global warming.

oh yes, I am sure Europeans say "I'll get a small car to stop global warming" and jump of joy when they pay taxes.

America consumes nearly one-third more energy than the 15 most developed EU countries, even though they have a combined population that's nearly 100 million more than the United States'.

and how much bigger the economy is?

The American Dream depends on assimilation, but the European Dream is based on nations' preserving their cultural identity and coming together in a multicultural universe. The EU's inhabitants break down into 100 or more different languages and dialects, making the region one of the most culturally diverse in the world.
I don't see what it has to do with anything, but nevermind.

The American Dream is wedded to love of country and patriotism; the European Dream is more cosmopolitan and outward-reaching. Europeans now provide 47 percent of all the humanitarian assistance in the world. (The United States contributes 36 percent.) While Americans are willing to use military force to protect our self-interests, Europeans favor diplomacy and economic aid to avert conflict.

that must be the biggest piece of crap of the whole article. Of course Europe doesn't favour military action, their military are not as sophisticated as the american, for years Europe relied heavily in the US military power for protection, and now, they are trying to cut that reliance, there are project to develop an European fighter that can compete with the american and russian models. There have been a lot of talk about Europe revaming its armed forces.
Plus, while in the US a decision to go to war is taken by one government, it's not the case of Europe as the ignorant author should well know. There isn't a body in Europe that could decide to go to war, it's the national government who do.

Of course, Europe hasn't suddenly become Shangri-La. For all their talk of preserving cultural identity, Europeans have become increasingly hostile toward newly arrived immigrants and asylum seekers from other parts of the world -- even as their continent becomes more attractive to these very people. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again, as is discrimination against Muslims and other religious minorities.
again, disconnected.

For the European Union itself, many difficulties remain, including integrating the 10 new Central, Eastern and Southern European member states, whose economies lag far behind the wealthier Western and Northern members.

another piece of ignorance, even now East Germany is still not at the level of West Germany, and it's part of the same country, not just the same union, and Germany is by far the most powerful economy in Europe.

Portugal, Greece for example (that maybe the author doesn't know but have been members of the EU for decades) lack well behind France or Germany or the UK, so what the hell is he talking about?

The EU's governing machinery in Brussels is a maze of bureaucratic red tape, and its officials are often accused of being aloof and unresponsive to the needs of the European citizens they supposedly serve.

I guess he means the European parliament.

But the point is not whether the Europeans are living up to their dream.
isn't it? and why did he start all this bullshit precisely saying that?, I forgot, he didn't have a point

We Americans have never fully lived up to our own. What's important is that Europe has articulated a new vision for the future that differs from ours in fundamental ways.
yes, European vision has differed from American vision since like 1876.

Romano Prodi, the president of the European Commission, has admitted that the EU's goal is to establish "a superpower on the European continent that stands equal to the United States." When I asked him to explain what he meant, he spoke of the European vision as one of a new type of power, based not on military strength but on economic cooperation and the construction of communities of conscience, a new kind of superpower based on waging peace.
year right, and Bush says he wants the unity of all americans, has the author ever heard of the word politics?

Utopian as it sounds, remember that 200 years ago, America's founders created a new dream for humanity that transformed the world. Today, a new generation of Europeans is creating a radical, and worthy, new dream.
I don't really see the relation, but I fail to find any sense to this article anyway.

Jeremy Rifkin, president of the Foundation on Economic Trends in Washington, is the author of "The European Dream: How Europe's Vision of the Future is Quietly Eclipsing the American Dream" (Tarcher/Penguin).
certainly I am not buying that crap.

Volcana
Nov 10th, 2004, 05:34 AM
I didn't miss the point. They have different values because they have no choice but to have different values.They have every bit as much choice about their values as you or I. Possibly more, as they are exposed to more different cultures.

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 06:39 AM
They have every bit as much choice about their values as you or I. Possibly more, as they are exposed to more different cultures.
Sure we all have free will, as far as exposure to different cultures. Most Americans are from different places. I'm sure there was more diversity in my 10th grade class (racial and ethnic -Irish-Americans, Koreans, Laotians, Italian-Americans, Germans, Turks, Puerto Ricans, blacks, Polish-Americans, Jewish, mix races and this was just in my homeroom) than in most Euro classes of the same grade.

I see values as a product of enviornment ("when in Rome") and nurture (parenting). Plenty of Euros come over here and become just as capitalistic/materialistic as any Yank.

I think Euros (other than the Danes :angel: ) are actually more violent than Yanks, they just punch instead of shooting. Actually a lot of Euros are pretty damn ghetto when you get right down to it. :p

My English friend has an advanced degree and yet he and his peers see nothing wrong with punching someone in the face who roots for Liverpool or touches their beer in the pub. Its just the way they were brought up.

In America that would be more common behavior of a Philly high school drop out after an Eagle loss.

My Continental friends (mainly German) would wander drunk in the South of Spain and beat up Frenchmen...

...for being French. He's outgrown that phase but he was still doing that in his mid-20s :eek: Its just the way they were brought up.

Once again Advanced Degree, currently a teacher.

The German cuts line without a second thought (doesn't percieve it a rude at all). The Englishman creates lines where there's no need (polite to the point of nausea). Its just the way they were brought up.

I have no true French "friends" by my French acquaintances (sp) are pretty much like the above article claims Euros are evolving into. Ambitionless, with low expectations of life and a superiority complex. :lol: They don't realize what weasels they are its just the way they were brought up. :tape:

All of these Euros I know are liberals; but there is nothing going on over there thats all "Great Society". They don't expect to do better in life than their parents and their quite happy just to not do worse. And that's okay for them. :shrug:

They're all playing hand fate dealt them just like we are.

turt
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:35 AM
Sure we all have free will, as far as exposure to different cultures. Most Americans are from different places. I'm sure there was more diversity in my 10th grade class (racial and ethnic -Irish-Americans, Koreans, Laotians, Italian-Americans, Germans, Turks, Puerto Ricans, blacks, Polish-Americans, Jewish, mix races and this was just in my homeroom) than in most Euro classes of the same grade.

I see values as a product of enviornment ("when in Rome") and nurture (parenting). Plenty of Euros come over here and become just as capitalistic/materialistic as any Yank.

I think Euros (other than the Danes :angel: ) are actually more violent than Yanks, they just punch instead of shooting. Actually a lot of Euros are pretty damn ghetto when you get right down to it. :p

My English friend has an advanced degree and yet he and his peers see nothing wrong with punching someone in the face who roots for Liverpool or touches their beer in the pub. Its just the way they were brought up.

In America that would be more common behavior of a Philly high school drop out after an Eagle loss.

My Continental friends (mainly German) would wander drunk in the South of Spain and beat up Frenchmen...

...for being French. He's outgrown that phase but he was still doing that in his mid-20s :eek: Its just the way they were brought up.

Once again Advanced Degree, currently a teacher.

The German cuts line without a second thought (doesn't percieve it a rude at all). The Englishman creates lines where there's no need (polite to the point of nausea). Its just the way they were brought up.

I have no true French "friends" by my French acquaintances (sp) are pretty much like the above article claims Euros are evolving into. Ambitionless, with low expectations of life and a superiority complex. :lol: They don't realize what weasels they are its just the way they were brought up. :tape:

All of these Euros I know are liberals; but there is nothing going on over there thats all "Great Society". They don't expect to do better in life than their parents and their quite happy just to not do worse. And that's okay for them. :shrug:

They're all playing hand fate dealt them just like we are.Wow, so much crap in here!

Englishmen fighting in the pubs, Germans beating up Frenchies for being French? STEREOTYPES! (Well, it may explain why they are friends with you when I read this...)

And excuse me, "they just punch instead of shooting"? Yeah, equally wrong, right? :rolleyes: I'd like to :haha: but it's just :scared: to read this!

"Ambitionless, with low expectation of life"? Then why are the standards of living way better in "Old Europe" than in the United States? Is it ambitionless to have a system where you are not asked your credit card to get healthcare? Is it ambitionless to have a system where people are not left behind? Is it ambitionless to be willing to reduce drastically pollution to give our children a better world?

rand
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:36 AM
Euros who speak Chinese or Japanese impress mehen(3) hao(3) :D

rand
Nov 10th, 2004, 07:42 AM
this comparison Euro<-> Americans comes at an interesting point to me, since just yesterday I've thought out an intersting theory about "fight club"(the movie) in which the Ed Norton character represents europe, and the Brad Pitt character the US
Ed Norton always struggles against what Brad Pitt does, whines a lot about it but in the end is always happy with the outcome...his character is also much more "european" (in searching sophistication in the beginning and all) while the brad pitt character is the uncomplexed, muscular american...actually there's a lot more about it, but I just don't want to type everything out myself...just think about it for a while :D

yes, I DO realize I'm becoming increasingly crazy :lol:

2ace2
Nov 10th, 2004, 08:52 AM
Sure we all have free will, as far as exposure to different cultures. Most Americans are from different places. I'm sure there was more diversity in my 10th grade class (racial and ethnic -Irish-Americans, Koreans, Laotians, Italian-Americans, Germans, Turks, Puerto Ricans, blacks, Polish-Americans, Jewish, mix races and this was just in my homeroom) than in most Euro classes of the same grade.

I see values as a product of enviornment ("when in Rome") and nurture (parenting). Plenty of Euros come over here and become just as capitalistic/materialistic as any Yank.

I think Euros (other than the Danes :angel: ) are actually more violent than Yanks, they just punch instead of shooting. Actually a lot of Euros are pretty damn ghetto when you get right down to it. :p

My English friend has an advanced degree and yet he and his peers see nothing wrong with punching someone in the face who roots for Liverpool or touches their beer in the pub. Its just the way they were brought up.

In America that would be more common behavior of a Philly high school drop out after an Eagle loss.

My Continental friends (mainly German) would wander drunk in the South of Spain and beat up Frenchmen...

...for being French. He's outgrown that phase but he was still doing that in his mid-20s :eek: Its just the way they were brought up.

Once again Advanced Degree, currently a teacher.

The German cuts line without a second thought (doesn't percieve it a rude at all). The Englishman creates lines where there's no need (polite to the point of nausea). Its just the way they were brought up.

I have no true French "friends" by my French acquaintances (sp) are pretty much like the above article claims Euros are evolving into. Ambitionless, with low expectations of life and a superiority complex. :lol: They don't realize what weasels they are its just the way they were brought up. :tape:

All of these Euros I know are liberals; but there is nothing going on over there thats all "Great Society". They don't expect to do better in life than their parents and their quite happy just to not do worse. And that's okay for them. :shrug:

They're all playing hand fate dealt them just like we are.You obviously don't know what you're talking about :rolleyes:

"Sluggy"
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Europe is a great place for Americans...and especially for liberals. You get lots of vacation, property is more affordable, you dont need millions to retire. Raising children seems much easier here too. I really love it. There are a lot of variables in America that caused me problems throughout my life. And these problems do not exist, or exist in smaller quantity in Europe.

Halardfan
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:35 AM
All these things are so complex...I regret to say, for instance, that most Brits remain Eurosceptic, and look down on the notion of a more united Europe.

Indeed, outside of the Ryder cup most would be reluctant to identify themselves as European at all.

I say this as a Pro-European, who believes are future should lie in a United Staes of Europe, and that Europe as a whole and Britain would both benefit from our engaging more with our neighbours.

Our press in particular, with guys like Rupert Murdoch (who has a lot to answer for, on both sides of the atlantic) taking a lead, are often fanatically anti-European, feeding into our prejudices...bringing out the worst in us.

The anti-Europeans seldom have trouble with Britain acting as America's sidekick though.

A lot depends on what happens in America...if our fears are confirmed and the US has taken a lurch to the far-right for another generation, then it makes the need for a stronger, saner Europe in the world all the more vital and urgent.

Steff_forever
Nov 10th, 2004, 09:50 AM
I guess what connects us is the feeling that a peaceful Europe with a high diversity of cultures (we can share) is more successful than one in which people are jealous of the others' ...
That feeling of belonging together grows in many young people over here. That's just an encouraging sign of trust ...
Another is that war should be the last mean to solve a problem. Maybe an united Europe has more influence on governments than singular states to find a balance of interests.

Svennovitch
Nov 10th, 2004, 11:34 AM
That was an interesting read! :D
I second that, thanks!

It's not all that black/white, but it's a refreshing view of things!

veryborednow
Nov 10th, 2004, 12:26 PM
a refreshing view of things!
Agreed :) I just wish we could get a few more articles like that in the UK.

Truthwillout
Nov 10th, 2004, 02:56 PM
Europe rocks. I just wish we could accelerate integration and make huge strides as we did in the beginning when there was only Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. I think it's high time we created a more united Europe with those who want to go forward, which wouldn't stop those only interested in a single market (I'm thinking of Britain, Poland and Scandinavian countries) from being in it. A two-speed Europe (a single market on one hand and a federation with 5 or 6 states ready to take the plunge on the other hand) is the only way.

kiwifan
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:09 PM
hen(3) hao(3) :D
Rand, I'm not shocked that you'd fit the description of an exceptional Euro. :cool:

Maybe my view is skewed because most of my Euro friends are soccer and rugby players so they can actually beat up most of you skinny sunken chested cigarette smoking flower sniffin' Continental types.

I like to bring up Euros running around in matching shirts :tape: punching each other because when I first got on the boards Euros always talked about us Yanks like we all walked around with guns in our holsters. Maybe 3 out of 100 people I know have guns. :p I can only speak for the Euros I know and what they've told me and what I've seen when I visited their hometowns (including the crack heads :lol: ).

Euros try to give off that refined tea sipping, wine tasting image on the boards but I know the truth...

...You guys are soooooooooooo not civilized. :haha:

rand
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:15 PM
I just started learning chinese a few months ago mind you ;)
but we're making progress quite quickly it seems :)

for the rest of your post :haha: indeed ;)

rand
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:17 PM
damn, I can't rep you kiwi :(

"Sluggy"
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:36 PM
I am not into all of this Europe v. the US stuff. but i can say that as far as quality of life issues are concerned, I think the US citizen is getting a bum ride. ive worked at minimum wage jobs without insurance, and you just can barely get bye - actually i was often assisted by my parents. But you can live on the minimum wage in Europe, at least in France. Plus there is no shame associated with bad wages, while there is in the states. :fiery: And once you do get a reasonably well paying job (lets say 20,000/year) You spend all but 2 weeks working. :eek: talk about a rat race, or more like a gerbil wheel. :p youre running but no time to recharge your batteries. Now that i get much vacation, i dont know how i lived without it. eventually, i would have crashed and burned. I feel bad for americans who work so much. NOt just for the average person, but also for the executives who are just as much or even more under work stress. :tape: At least if you work a 9-5 job you get to see your family at night. :angel: Wealthy executives and likewise work work work- and i wouldnt trade my spot for one of theirs cause the work just doesnt stop. i suggest giving Americans the option to have 4 weeks off, at a slightly reduced salary. then temp workers could get some work, and the rest of us can get some time off. :angel: another issue is vacas. Having worked in NY 8 years, i can tell it is extremely hard to find an affordable vacation spot. :fiery: It seems much easier to find agreable vacation destinations in europe. also we have excellent trains systems so you dont even need a car to get to the beach and live like a king. :drool: I took a 25% salary cut, but dont miss the money, it is a fair trade. No wonder we got so many idiots in the states - theyve gone mad with overwork and too much stress. :mad: Plus there Europe is more permissive, thus its easier to let off stress. Of course, that is just my opinion. but i guarantee that if you live in NY and than in France, you might just agree with me.

"Sluggy"
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:41 PM
Rand, I'm not shocked that you'd fit the description of an exceptional Euro. :cool:

Maybe my view is skewed because most of my Euro friends are soccer and rugby players so they can actually beat up most of you skinny sunken chested cigarette smoking flower sniffin' Continental types.

I like to bring up Euros running around in matching shirts :tape: punching each other because when I first got on the boards Euros always talked about us Yanks like we all walked around with guns in our holsters. Maybe 3 out of 100 people I know have guns. :p I can only speak for the Euros I know and what they've told me and what I've seen when I visited their hometowns (including the crack heads :lol: ).

Euros try to give off that refined tea sipping, wine tasting image on the boards but I know the truth...

...You guys are soooooooooooo not civilized. :haha:

Just for the record, there aint a tougher breed of men and women than Americans. american guys are freaking muscle bound, in shape, no wussy, but-kicking bunch of guys. Rugby? Soccer? :confused: Go to the beaches of New Jersey and you will see the most solid group of men in the world. You cant beat the guys from the land of milk and honey :angel:

wayitis
Nov 10th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Well if we spoke different languages in different states we'd have the same lame false premise (of being so open to different people) to crow about. That's geography not some special enlightenment. All of my English friends only speak English (with just enough of the other stuff to get along) and all of my Continental friends speak several languages, coincidentally the languages of their nieghbors :p

Euros who speak Chinese or Japanese impress me, speaking another Euro language is usually just a accident of geography. Linguists say you learn the most when you're exposed at a very early age so of course a Continental Euro type is going to speak multiple languages because they need to know them if they're going to travel much more than 50 miles in any given direction. :yawn:

Most Americans travel the same amounts of distance as most Europeans in their life experience. Americans put in a situation where no one speaks English is a rarity that comes from poverty or priviledge.



I know that you like to rile up other posts for the sake of argument :devil:, but this is bull and you know it! I might be easier for us but it still takes hard work! England, for the most part of its history, has always been a very insular country... add to that the world wide popularity of the English language nowadays, due in great part to the US being the major cultural and economic watershed exporter, and we have ourselves the perfect conditions not to have any incentives to learn a foreign language in the English-speaking countries... Americans in general are not bilingual because of geographical isolation.. they do not speak another language because there is basically no need nor incentives to do so and because of their centrist mentality and national pride...