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TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 11:14 AM
These religious people say they go by the Bible, but I went to a church this past weekend with a friend of mine and almost all of the people there were FAT. It says in the Bible that glutony is a sin. Does this mean the heavy people are going to hell and cant get married?
Now, im not downing the heavy peeps, dont get me wrong. Im simply making a point. Saying, because u are heavy, u are going to hell. That is crazy. I know that. Also, someone in my family got a speeding ticket last weekend. Now, I posed this question to him. It says in the Bible to obey the laws of the land. Obviously, he broke them. Is he going to hell?

~ The Leopard ~
Nov 4th, 2004, 11:26 AM
Shouldn't that be "mind-altering substance"? It worries me every time I look at your sig.

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 11:44 AM
oops u are right, never noticed that. Thanx:)

Experimentee
Nov 4th, 2004, 11:59 AM
Just because someone is heavy doesnt necessarily mean they engaged in gluttony.
Also maybe they did get a speeding ticket but they were probably not intentionally trying to break the speed limit, so they did their best to obey the laws.
Surely you can think of better examples of how religious people are hyporites?

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Surely, you would know that it doesnt matter if you werent trying to get a ticket, you did break the law. Sin is sin.
Yes you are right, just because you weight 300 lbs, that means you dont eat alot and you dont glut. Yeah, ok.
At this church I went to, ALLL of the fat people were the first in line after services to eat and their plates were HUGE. The pastor was the one who was the biggest and all he said the whole hour and half I was there was how wrong homosexuality was. I just thought it was ironic after services that he was glutting the most.

I think they are perfect examples of how some relgious people only see outside of themselves.

Paneru
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:31 PM
Well, one thing I can say about many "religious people"
(speaking from experience), they only adhere to parts of the Bible.

For example,
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31

Take the so-called "religious people" outside of abortion clinics spouting hate or protesting some sort of gay/lesbian event.

I can see not agreeing with it and such and letting others know that.
However, to damn people to hell and persecute them and what not baffles me when the Bible clearly states that God is the final judge and they aren't to judge lest they be judged themselves.

Matt 7:1 & 2
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Now, I know we are all only human and are prone to mistakes but
I'm talking of those who act "hollier than thou" and would
put on to the world that they are so upright and good!

I've in my short time on this earth have witness 1st hand such people
only to find out the skeletons that were in their closet and how they could
damn people for doing something they themselves were/are guilty of.

Helen Lawson
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:32 PM
Bible or not, being thin is really important in Hollywood. If L.B. Mayer had found a burning bush in the Hollywood Hills and God gave him the Ten Hollywood Commandments, being thin would have been up there like the one about not killing other people.

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:33 PM
These religious people say they go by the Bible, but I went to a church this past weekend with a friend of mine and almost all of the people there were FAT. It says in the Bible that glutony is a sin. Does this mean the heavy people are going to hell and cant get married?
Now, im not downing the heavy peeps, dont get me wrong. Im simply making a point. Saying, because u are heavy, u are going to hell. That is crazy. I know that. Also, someone in my family got a speeding ticket last weekend. Now, I posed this question to him. It says in the Bible to obey the laws of the land. Obviously, he broke them. Is he going to hell?
This is a popular, and totally contrived misconception about the bible, and particularly, the teachings (as we know them) of Jesus Christ. I am the last person on this board to want to be seen as bible-thumping or trying to convert anyone- as many people here know that is not me. I'm not here to convert you, however, if you read the bible, and particularly what is commonly accepted as the teachings of the Christ, nowhere does he or any of his followers say that any particular sin other than rejecting Christ as ones personal savior will prevent the individual from heaven. Christ even gained the faith and belief of a murderer on one side of him as he was being crucified, and he had the wherewithal to tell that man that this day he shall see him in paradise. What this means is that fat people, murderers, adulterers, gays, people who flew planes into the World Trade Center, pedophiles, rapists, republicans, democrats, transexuals, law-abiding citizens, ANYONE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY MAY HAVE OR HAVE NOT DONE, can escape hell through accepting Christ as their personal savior. It's a simple concept, but one which is twisted and lost on most people searching to blame or find a scapegoat to justify their own personal beliefs and mores.

There- does that make fat people in bad suits any more attractive to you?:lol:

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Gotta love the Bible-

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They keep phoning the police claiming that the odor is noxious. Should I smite the guy next door after the cops leave?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her given that she's only 12-years-old?

3. And speaking of children, my teenage son is stubborn and rebellious. I know that I should have him stoned to death by all the men in the city (Deut. 21:18), but I live in a city of over a million, and that's just not going to be easy to organize. Couldn't I just get my buddies at work to pump a few rounds from a shotgun in him for target practice?

4. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

5. (For Americans only) Lev. 25:44 which states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? I have been unable to find any reference to Canada in the Bible. Why can't I own Canadians?

6. The guy down the street insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or can I round up a posse of neighbours and stone him to death first thing Monday morning?

7. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? This is a serious problem for me as my wife (husband) loves shellfish.

8. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear contacts. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

9. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they be put to death?

10. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

11. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)?

12. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

13. Jesus says Himself that if a Christian drinks a deadly poison, it won't hurt him at all. (Mark 16:18) I think that's absolutely amazing. Since you're a devout Christian, could you demonstrate that to me by swallowing this bottle of rat poison?

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Great post aswell. It does not matter how great the sin is because all sin is equal and God forgives all sin when the sinner asks for forgiveness.
Of course, we could then quite naturally dissect the origins of the word and concept of "sin" itself, and begin discussing "sindh" and the vedic scriptures, and "christ" and "krishna" concepts, and "abraham" and "a brahmin" origins, or even the origins of the "Queen of Heaven" as the "Virgin Mary". I'm game- anyone else?

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 12:57 PM
Your above post was a good point Kabuki but I do not agree with ur mockery of the Bible at all.

Sorry. The Bible hasn't shown me a lot of respect either. :lol:

Andy_
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Being gay, attracted to the same sex, is not a sin, but the action of same-sex intercourse is.

That is what the bible indicates. (just so I don't get badrepped just telling everyone these are the bibles views, not mine)
Guys, you don't want me to copy and paste the whole chapter of Leviticus where that comes from AGAIN, do you? :rolleyes:

Paneru
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Being gay, attracted to the same sex, is not a sin, but the action of same-sex intercourse is.

That is what the bible indicates. (just so I don't get badrepped just telling everyone these are the bibles views, not mine)

Now that baffles me more than anything.

As humans we need emotional and physical companionship.
Otherwise, what was the point of creating Eve.

Sidenote, that's why celebit
priest and nuns baffle me as well.

It's not like you can't be a man or woman of God
and not be married, having that emotional and
physical connection with another human being.

Back to the point,

I don't understand how one being attracked to the same-sex isn't
a sin but having a physical relationship isn't?

I would think that lying was the sin.

Forinstance, a person knowing their gay or maybe thinking they are
in their heart but, marrying someone of the opposite sex to try and get rid
of or hide those feelings an escape the persecution and stigma that comes
from those religous people.

So, you're saying that one can be attracked to the same-sex and desire
to be with that person, but so long as they never have sex with that person it's not a sin?

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Well, I first of all, I dont think heavy people etc are going to hell. I was just making light of the situation that I was in.

I have one last question for those who seem to know much about the Bible. This is a serious question and Im totally not making light of the Bible. Just a question. When I was about 10, I had a crush on a boy. At that age, I didnt know it was considered wrong. I told my mother and she scorned me and actually "whipped" me for being "bad." I was a good child. I made good grades, I did what I was told concerning my parents and every nite I would go to sleep and pray to God to make me NOT LIKE boys. Even as I entered junior high and high school, I would pray. Obviously, that didnt help me and I still like boys. If its a sin, why did he not hear my prayers? Please dont tell me that God makes us make our own decisions etc. I was a hurt, lonely child that ask this of God.

Helen Lawson
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Well, I first of all, I dont think heavy people etc are going to hell. I was just making light of the situation that I was in.

I have one last question for those who seem to know much about the Bible. This is a serious question and Im totally not making light of the Bible. Just a question. When I was about 10, I had a crush on a boy. At that age, I didnt know it was considered wrong. I told my mother and she scorned me and actually "whipped" me for being "bad." I was a good child. I made good grades, I did what I was told concerning my parents and every nite I would go to sleep and pray to God to make me NOT LIKE boys. Even as I entered junior high and high school, I would pray. Obviously, that didnt help me and I still like boys. If its a sin, why did he not hear my prayers? Please dont tell me that God makes us make our own decisions etc. I was a hurt, lonely child that ask this of God.
They would say you didn't pray hard enough and that it might take years and years of praying, but you can't give up.

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:18 PM
Well, I first of all, I dont think heavy people etc are going to hell. I was just making light of the situation that I was in.

I have one last question for those who seem to know much about the Bible. This is a serious question and Im totally not making light of the Bible. Just a question. When I was about 10, I had a crush on a boy. At that age, I didnt know it was considered wrong. I told my mother and she scorned me and actually "whipped" me for being "bad." I was a good child. I made good grades, I did what I was told concerning my parents and every nite I would go to sleep and pray to God to make me NOT LIKE boys. Even as I entered junior high and high school, I would pray. Obviously, that didnt help me and I still like boys. If its a sin, why did he not hear my prayers? Please dont tell me that God makes us make our own decisions etc. I was a hurt, lonely child that ask this of God.

Tim, you are breaking my heart

Paneru
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Tim, you are breaking my heart

Mine too.

I really couldn't even begin
to answer that question.

rightous
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Kabuke and Ayla, guy su make really good points, my only addition is that Christians too often judge others, and if I'm not mistaken th only person who can judge us is God. I'm was raised a Catholic as well but I think that people's interpretations of the bible can leave to probs. For instance i was raised to accept people for themselves and not only God can judge them for their sins not me, this is primarily in relation to people you don't know.

I find it unbelivable that individuals who identify themselves as Christians can have such hatred against others b/c of their sexuality, this is def not in the bible.

Tim man i think the question urself. I don't think being Gay is a lifestyle choice bro its genetics and if u love someone who happens to be the same sex is that as sinful as Murder, I'll let others make their views.

Also this is very unlike me, I'm usually being chilled on this baord:)

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Mine too.

I really couldn't even begin
to answer that question.

I'm scared someone else will try.

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:24 PM
Well, I have never said that I know alot about the Bible. I base my opinion on how I have been treated in the past. I dont want you to feel sorry for me or anything. But, I always ask this question in a very serious manner and no one can ever tell me the answer. I dont guess anyone can, but that's just my story I guess

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:27 PM
Thanx Rightous and Kabuki, that was sweet.
I dont want to argue with anyone, just a nice conversation.

Ayla Y. Im sorry I called you a stupid ass in a few threads ago. Im not usually like that.

stenen
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Being gay, attracted to the same sex, is not a sin, but the action of same-sex intercourse is.


Same-sex intercourse? How does this apply to lesbians? :scratch:
Aaaaah! strap-on!!! :yeah:

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Thanx Rightous and Kabuki, that was sweet.
I dont want to argue with anyone, just a nice conversation.

Ayla Y. Im sorry I called you a stupid ass in a few threads ago. Im not usually like that.

Ooops. I think I'm in the wrong thread! :lol:

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:35 PM
Ooops. I think I'm in the wrong thread! :lol:


lol
hey, u know I just needed to throw that out there. Its thursday, rainy and I just dont have enough energy to argue today. lol

:wavey:

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:41 PM
lol
hey, u know I just needed to throw that out there. Its thursday, rainy and I just dont have enough energy to argue today. lol

:wavey:

What a crap week all around. :(

:wavey:

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:43 PM
I totally agree. But good news its almost friday:)

Paneru
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I totally agree. But good news its almost friday:)

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Well, I have never said that I know alot about the Bible. I base my opinion on how I have been treated in the past. I dont want you to feel sorry for me or anything. But, I always ask this question in a very serious manner and no one can ever tell me the answer. I dont guess anyone can, but that's just my story I guess
Okay, hopefully I won't disappoint anyone here, but in answer to your question, I'd like to relate to you another story- from the bible. There is a story in the New Testament where the Saducees (the powerful jewish religious leaders of the day) were questioning Christ about a parable of a certain woman. The woman apparently had many husbands, several of whom died, several of whom disowned her or divorced her, and she married some of their brothers. Their question to Christ was "in heaven, whose wife will she be"- with specific reference by them to Old Testament laws about such things (Hebrew tradition figured heavily in their power structure, and they were trying to trick him into renouncing the law). The really great thing about Christ that most people miss in all the controversy and self-righteous posturing that goes on these days (and ever since he lived on this earth), is that what makes Christ so different is that he never spoke the problem- only the answer, and it was always simple. He answered the saducees by simply stating "Do you not err- you know not the scriptures. She is no man's wife in heaven".

This answer contains a profound concept that goes beyond what you and I can know in this life. For now we look through a glass darkly... if your religious upbringing and experiences with your parents relating to your desires and feelings towards boys and eventually men conflicts with how you have evolved as a human being and a spiritual entity- accept the change, and take what is good and simple from the teachings of the Christ, and incorporate that simplicity into your spiritual progress- there is much to be gained from striving to maintain an open mind and not giving power to negative energy unless it is in the business of moving positive energy forward.

I hope this makes sense. I'm glad you brought this topic to light today!

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 01:51 PM
No disrespect and I appreciate you trying to answer, but I have no clue what you just said.

nash
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:00 PM
They would say you didn't pray hard enough and that it might take years and years of praying, but you can't give up.
I would absolutely not say that.

Tim, first of all I am so sorry to hear what you went through as a child. Parents so often don't realize what damage they are doing by their actions. I also went through a lot of torment as a child. My earliest memory is of my dad standing next to my mom with a shotgun and telling me to "get her out of here or I'll kill her and myself too". I remember that night trying to sneak into the living room and take the gun away while he slept. Experiences like that stay with you for a lifetime.

I wish I could give you an easy answer in a few sentences that would make everything completely clear, but unfortunately, as you know it's not that simple. There are several good books about "coming out" of homosexuality. I would suggest you pick up one at your local Christian bookstore. They can explain it much better than I.

But, I believe that at the root of homosexual temptation is a desire for love and acceptance of the same sex. Many feel rejected by their fathers, or that they just don't fit in with men, and unfortunately, as they grow up, begin to identify more with women than men. I'm not saying that this is your case, just that in many cases this is true.

I'd be happy to try to help you sort these issues out, but it should be done in private. Again, I don't have all of the answers, but I know Who does. If you ever need help, PM me at any time.

Your friend,

Nash

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:11 PM
Well I first of all, my parents didnt beat me and I was raised in a good home, with morals and love. So, dont play that card. My mother did spank me, but that hasnt made me crazy. I liked boys before I can remember. My earliest memory was writing a boys name on my notepad at school.
Im sorry, you had a bad childhood, really I am. But I wont go to a Christian bookstore and read a bood about a subject that the author has no clue about. I dont need spirtual guidance. I ask for that when I was young and it didnt happen.
I had love from my family. I had a great father that told me every nite that he loved me. My mom was great, family great. That's not what caused me to be gay. What caused me to be gay is genetics.
The question I posed early. I know that no one has the answer and I dont expect an answer. I was just trying to illustrate that an innocent child asked for something to be taken away that is a sin and it didnt happen.

nash
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:22 PM
OK - but the offer stands if you ever need it! :-)

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:22 PM
No disrespect and I appreciate you trying to answer, but I have no clue what you just said.
The point I was trying to illustrate is that the "bible" in its many shapes and incarnations, was written primarily by jewish men in a traditionally patriarchal (male-dominated) society which had as its design the separation between the individual (you) and your concept of god. If the church, or the bible in any way separates you from a personal relationship and contact with what you believe to be god- something is wrong with that, and you yourself have the power to not only reject such teachings, but to question them for their historical accuracy and meaning. Your attraction to boys may be viewed as a sin by some people, however, from my reading of scripture, sex, and who you had it with on this earth, is not going to be one of the questions discussed when you meet your maker. Does this make sense to you?

I was also trying to illustrate that Christ himself didn't place any emphasis on so-called "sins of the flesh"- that these are some of the many concepts designed to separate you from personal contact with god. Don't let it hang you up- it's not that important an issue in the grand scheme of life. I am gay- I love men, both physically and spiritually, however, the older I get, the more I realize I need women both phsycially and spiritually to complete myself as a whole spiritual being. Sex doesn't have anything to do with this concept, and there is no clergy I need to interpret this reality for me. Does this make sense to you?

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:26 PM
This makes sense yes.
I wouldnt say that I wasnt spirtual. I am spirtual and I have my own time to think and reflect. I just dont do it in an organized way if that makes sense.

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:33 PM
The point I was trying to illustrate is that the "bible" in its many shapes and incarnations, was written primarily by jewish men in a traditionally patriarchal (male-dominated) society which had as its design the separation between the individual (you) and your concept of god. If the church, or the bible in any way separates you from a personal relationship and contact with what you believe to be god- something is wrong with that, and you yourself have the power to not only reject such teachings, but to question them for their historical accuracy and meaning. Your attraction to boys may be viewed as a sin by some people, however, from my reading of scripture, sex, and who you had it with on this earth, is not going to be one of the questions discussed when you meet your maker. Does this make sense to you?

I was also trying to illustrate that Christ himself didn't place any emphasis on so-called "sins of the flesh"- that these are some of the many concepts designed to separate you from personal contact with god. Don't let it hang you up- it's not that important an issue in the grand scheme of life. I am gay- I love men, both physically and spiritually, however, the older I get, the more I realize I need women both phsycially and spiritually to complete myself as a whole spiritual being. Sex doesn't have anything to do with this concept, and there is no clergy I need to interpret this reality for me. Does this make sense to you?

:clap2: :hearts:

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:41 PM
Ok, u know what. Im off my high horse now... lets talk bout the weekend. What you gonna do

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Ok, u know what. Im off my high horse now... lets talk bout the weekend. What you gonna do

Nash and I are hookin' up this weekend. :lol:

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Nash and I are hookin' up this weekend. :lol:


:o let me know about that

Circe
Nov 4th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Shouldn't that be "mind-altering substance"? It worries me every time I look at your sig.
:kiss:

threads like this are my substitute for horror movies.

nash
Nov 4th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Nash and I are hookin' up this weekend. :lol:
Buki, Did'ya ever read that book I asked you to?

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Buki, Did'ya ever read that book I asked you to?

:o No.

kabuki
Nov 4th, 2004, 03:14 PM
If I stay unenlightened, I can continue to sin! :lol:

Borris
Nov 4th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Your above post was a good point Kabuki but I do not agree with ur mockery of the Bible at all.


He just proving that the Bible is mainly a historical document. And that it can be dangerous to mix religion with politics, like Bush (and also Keery, but to a lesser extent) does all the time.

alfajeffster
Nov 4th, 2004, 04:16 PM
He just proving that the Bible is mainly a historical document. And that it can be dangerous to mix religion with politics, like Bush (and also Keery, but to a lesser extent) does all the time.
P.S.- on a lighter note, he's on tour again...

www.marilynmanson.com (http://www.marilynmanson.com)

Bacardi
Nov 4th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Don't forget the main idea in Christianity "Love your neighbor" unless he or she is a homosexual. Then you can't love them, and they sure as hell won't change, that sin cannot be forgiven.

I don't even bother going to Church anymore. I saw more hypocrites and horrible people there than you'd see in a prison or a crack house.

This is why over half the people in Ohio claimed they voted for Bush, even thou they've lost the most jobs. They said his Christian background shows better morals. Morals in what? For fuck sakes, Hitler was a Christian as well.

And for the record for Glutony is a SIN, it doesn't mean the person has to be fat to be a gluton either. It just means overeating in general. I think you should go back to that Church Timbo, and even if it's just to look like a smart ass, bring up that passage in the bible and ask dear Mr Pastor about it to hear his lame'o explaination.

gentenaire
Nov 4th, 2004, 05:19 PM
You're absolutely right, Timbo, they should pass a constitutional amendment banning obesity. Imagine, your kids might be exposed to these people.

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:09 PM
gentenaire, that's a little harsh. I, personally, dont give 2 flying fucks if people are fat, skinny, black, white, homo, hetro, bi curious. I dont give a shit. My point was that if people follow the Bible so closely and tell me im wrong, there are other things in the Bible as well that are wrong. Gluttony is a sin according to the bible. Now, dont tell me that every fat person in the world has a "gland problem. U get fat from eating alot. That is gluttony. Now, my question is, will this fat person who over indulges in ice cream go to hell like me coz I like men? Both, according to the Bible are sins.

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:13 PM
U know, ive been nice enough. Ill just be honest and say what im on freakin mind. Its these Bible beaters that are the very ones in the back room of the porn shops getting off with a big burley trucker man. U dont know how many times ive seen, married men in church go the the gay club back rooms and get their nuts off. Now, to me, that's sick.
And gentenaire, do u think that children arent exposed to much worse in the world than homosexuality. I mean, Presss Bush is in the news everyday, sending troops to fight, shoot guns etc. On the news u see violence. Plz if you think the little brats dont see other things in this horrible world, u are full of shit

gentenaire
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:15 PM
I was being sarcastic, my point was the exact same point you're making.

TimBo
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:20 PM
I was being sarcastic, my point was the exact same point you're making.


Oh :eek: sorry... Ive just had to defend myself all day, that I just thought....
sorry :kiss:

Tennis Fool
Nov 4th, 2004, 06:37 PM
These religious people say they go by the Bible, but I went to a church this past weekend with a friend of mine and almost all of the people there were FAT. It says in the Bible that glutony is a sin. Does this mean the heavy people are going to hell and cant get married?
Now, im not downing the heavy peeps, dont get me wrong. Im simply making a point. Saying, because u are heavy, u are going to hell. That is crazy. I know that. Also, someone in my family got a speeding ticket last weekend. Now, I posed this question to him. It says in the Bible to obey the laws of the land. Obviously, he broke them. Is he going to hell?
What church did you go to? Protestant or Catholic? If it was Protestant, it doesn't make if you murdered a person in cold blood, said so, and got off scott free. Just as long as you believe in Christ, you are going to heaven.

Regarding the childhood incident you mention, your mother was obviously afraid and reacted in the wrong way. Have you ever spoken to her about this incident?

bionic71
Nov 5th, 2004, 10:38 AM
But, I believe that at the root of homosexual temptation is a desire for love and acceptance of the same sex. Many feel rejected by their fathers, or that they just don't fit in with men, and unfortunately, as they grow up, begin to identify more with women than men. I'm not saying that this is your case, just that in many cases this is true.

You say "homosexual temptation" - immediately the term temptation suggests something bad, something sinister, something potentially dangerous.
Sexual attraction is only one component of any individuals sum....why on earth do people consistently focus on what people do sexually....too much fascination, too many hang ups, too much guilt.....

As a gay man with a loving supporting father, a beer drinking, football playing one at that...I am resentful of the notion of linking homosexually orientation to an emotional rejection of some type. Who are these "many" you speak of.....I know very few gay men who would articulate this. Some may well be rejected by or estranged from their parents but the rejection came long after the announcement of them being gay...the rejection did not preceed their sexual identity...their parents rejected them due to their inabilty to understand or their refusal to make any attempt to understand and support their children.

I also "fit in" with men quite well thank you very much. Another gross misconception about gay men....
My best friend is not gay, my brother is not gay, my father is not gay, most of my work collegues and tennis playing peers are not gay....I fit in very well.
Being gay is not an issue for them or for me...it has no bearing on the friends I make.

Many hold onto such misinformed notions of what gay people are about.
I suspect that most have never taken the opportunity to actually sit with a gay person and openly discuss how certain legislation affects them or asked them to articulate their own personal journies.
Maybe they are frightened that they might discover that people are simply people...regardless of sexual orientation and that too much emphasis is placed on sex in general. My sexual orientation does not define me as a person, I do not focus on the fact I am gay, I do not wake up in the morning and think "gee..I am a homosexual"....I actually get up and have a shower, eat breakfast, kiss my partner goodbye and drive to work like most others do each day....how dull, but true....

It is others that highlight this notion of difference....of being unnatural or somehow a perversion....only then am I reminded of the potential harm in such misguided untruths....
I am lucky to have had the easiest of transitions....via loving and supportive parents who are not obsessed with sex, who embrace difference and are not afraid to learn. Many people, notably young gay people, are not fortunate enough to have had such a smooth ride, which is why I offer this alternative, real life perspective.

alfajeffster
Nov 5th, 2004, 11:50 AM
You say "homosexual temptation" - immediately the term temptation suggests something bad, something sinister, something potentially dangerous.
Sexual attraction is only one component of any individuals sum....why on earth do people consistently focus on what people do sexually....too much fascination, too many hang ups, too much guilt.....

As a gay man with a loving supporting father, a beer drinking, football playing one at that...I am resentful of the notion of linking homosexually orientation to an emotional rejection of some type. Who are these "many" you speak of.....I know very few gay men who would articulate this. Some may well be rejected by or estranged from their parents but the rejection came long after the announcement of them being gay...the rejection did not preceed their sexual identity...their parents rejected them due to their inabilty to understand or their refusal to make any attempt to understand and support their children.

I also "fit in" with men quite well thank you very much. Another gross misconception about gay men....
My best friend is not gay, my brother is not gay, my father is not gay, most of my work collegues and tennis playing peers are not gay....I fit in very well.
Being gay is not an issue for them or for me...it has no bearing on the friends I make.

Many hold onto such misinformed notions of what gay people are about.
I suspect that most have never taken the opportunity to actually sit with a gay person and openly discuss how certain legislation affects them or asked them to articulate their own personal journies.
Maybe they are frightened that they might discover that people are simply people...regardless of sexual orientation and that too much emphasis is placed on sex in general. My sexual orientation does not define me as a person, I do not focus on the fact I am gay, I do not wake up in the morning and think "gee..I am a homosexual"....I actually get up and have a shower, eat breakfast, kiss my partner goodbye and drive to work like most others do each day....how dull, but true....

It is others that highlight this notion of difference....of being unnatural or somehow a perversion....only then am I reminded of the potential harm in such misguided untruths....
I am lucky to have had the easiest of transitions....via loving and supportive parents who are not obsessed with sex, who embrace difference and are not afraid to learn. Many people, notably young gay people, are not fortunate enough to have had such a smooth ride, which is why I offer this alternative, real life perspective.This is a terrific post, and I not only agree with everything it has to say, my life is pretty much exactly the same. Nearly all my friends, male and female, are straight, and don't really care about my sexuality- it's not an issue, and wasn't an issue when we became friends. It's the natural progression once we all let go of our deep-seated fears and actually begin to accept people for who they really are- people. It's an often-overused, but much misunderstood catch phrase "first impressions are often correct". People think that, and use that theory to sit in judgment of total strangers, but I wonder how many people actually assess their ability to form impressions. I have tended to gravitate toward straight male friends through playing tennis, and as a result nearly all my tennis friends are straight guys who never even thought twice about my sexuality- we found something really cool that we had in common on the first impression- tennis, and built lasting, complete friendships on that common thread, then as we got to know each other- many, and I would venture to say most of them, found out eventually that I was gay, and it wasn't a case of rejection, more a case of "oh, whatever". One of my best doubles partners, whom I helped through a very nasty separation, divorce, and who is now with a new and lovely lady (he kept the children through all this, which is no mean feat for a single man in the USA), eventually came to me at a tournament one day and asked me why I didn't date a girl we both knew, who we both agreed many times previously was attractive. I simply answered "because I'm gay". His jaw didn't drop to the floor, he didn't laugh at me, he didn't disown me or refuse to play doubles with me or stop calling me to play tennis or go out for a beer any more, his simple, direct response, which I treasure to this day was "well, whatever blows your skirt up!":lol: We have become closer friends, and his girlfriend and kids all count me as a family friend, and that is just one example of how good we all can be, if we learn to accept each other for who we are.