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View Full Version : OHIO residents STILL CASTING BALLOTS!! but FOX calls it for bush w/ 1% up


Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 04:46 AM
people in ohio are still casting ballots.

earlier i said they had gone home, but that is not so, cnn, cnn.com and AP have reported that pizza and soda and water is being brought in to the people wait to cast thier ballots.

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 04:56 AM
also fox just called it for bush with a 1-2% lead with 16% of the vote still to be counted. and people still at the polls.

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:12 AM
people in ohio are still casting ballots.

earlier i said they had gone home, but that is not so, cnn, cnn.com and AP have reported that pizza and soda and water is being brought in to the people wait to cast thier ballots.

Let me guess? Trading Places? :lol:

But actually it went something like this.....

"Turn the machines back on! Turn the machines back on!"

But you were close, though. :lol:

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:17 AM
you are an idiot. its a good thing you are too young to vote. :bounce:

anyway for any who cares it looks like PEOPLE ARE STILL AT THE POLLS!! and PROVISIONAL ballots WILL HAVE TO BE COUNTED.

njguido11
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:19 AM
Hmm been going back and forth between fox news and Dan rather (just cause i like watching him squirm everytime a red state goes up) and fox was the last to announce Florida. Of course you only point out that they called Ohio. They cant win can they?????

faboozadoo15
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:19 AM
it's just irresponsible... but hey, it's fox news!

anyway, there must be good evidence that kerry will be unable to make up over 100,000 votes in ohio in the remaining votes that are to be counted.

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:19 AM
you are an idiot. its a good thing you are to young to vote. :bounce:

anyway for any who cares it looks like PEOPLE ARE STILL AT THE POLLS!! and PROVISITIONAL ballots WILL HAVE TO BE COUNTED.

Too young to vote???? :lol:

Funny, they didn't say that at the church that I voted at! Did they move the voting age up to 40 or something?

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:25 AM
Too young to vote???? :lol:

Funny, they didn't say that at the church that I voted at! Did they move the voting age up to 40 or something?

seriously? you have to be about 12, at least you have the think skills of a small child.

i would rather think of you as a small child thank you very much, for a grown man with your "entallygance" would be too much for me.

thanks :kiss:

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:29 AM
it's just irresponsible... but hey, it's fox news!

anyway, there must be good evidence that kerry will be unable to make up over 100,000 votes in ohio in the remaining votes that are to be counted.

WELL,

cnn reports 200,000 pro ballots to be counted. about 90% are projected to be valid. and if as in 2000, the pro ballots swing to the left, that could more than make up the 100,000.

thats because poor black folks are more likely to need to cast these new pro ballots.

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:29 AM
seriously? you have to be about 12, at least you have the think skills of a small child.

i would rather think of you as a small child thank you very much, for a grown man with your "entallygance" would be too much for me.

thanks :kiss:

:lol:

Bitter much? :lol:

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:33 AM
:lol:

Bitter much? :lol:

no, i just think that you are not entallygent enough to be over the age of 13, if you are dont tell. its really too sad and tragic. thanx. :kiss:

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:37 AM
ohio numbers

10436 of 11477 precincts - 91 percent

George W. Bush (i) Rep 2,548,508 - 51 percent
John F. Kerry Dem 2,441,599 - 49 percent
Michael Badnarik NP 13,097 - 0 percent
Michael Peroutka NP 11,153 - 0 percent

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 05:42 AM
ohio numbers

10436 of 11477 precincts - 91 percent

George W. Bush (i) Rep 2,548,508 - 51 percent
John F. Kerry Dem 2,441,599 - 49 percent
Michael Badnarik NP 13,097 - 0 percent
Michael Peroutka NP 11,153 - 0 percent

Bush still up by 102K with 92% reporting...and Cuyahoga County is 99% done.

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 06:14 AM
Bush still up by 102K with 92% reporting...and Cuyahoga County is 99% done.

again with 350,000 votes still to be counted and 200,000 pro ballots. 100K means next to nothing.

harloo
Nov 3rd, 2004, 06:16 AM
I'm hearing that ohio and Iowa are not calling it yet, and will not give results until tommorow. I hope Kerry can make some ground but I'm doubtful.

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 06:26 AM
Give it up, Ohio is finished and 4 more years of Bush.

All the precincts that haven't fully reported are rural ones where Bush is winning handily. His lead will grow even more.

This is a sad day.

you mean like gore did? and then afterword it came out that if every florida vote had be counted, (instead of the recount stopped) gore would have won by a good margin?


this why so few americans vote,

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 06:30 AM
for the record, i have never believed that kerry can pull this off. that being said. unlike alot of people (fox news), i think that every one of those 350,000+200,000 votes should be counted.

thats how a DEMOCRACY should work

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 06:33 AM
you mean like gore did? and then afterword it came out that if every florida vote had be counted, (instead of the recount stopped) gore would have won by a good margin?


this why so few americans vote,

How about a link to that?

Everything that I heard said that Bush still would have won after all of the recounts. You're BSing!

And as for the number of voters, wasn't this an even higher turnout than 2000?

Wigglytuff
Nov 3rd, 2004, 07:04 AM
I don't know who says the votes shouldn't be counted.

They definitely should be since Ohio is the deciding state, if Kerry holds on in Wisconsin.

But, let's be realistic. Those rumored 200,000 ballots are not all going to count, and they'll have to be at least 90% Kerry to make any difference.

here is the math
they are 120K behind.

there are 350,000 votes that will be counted today.
another 200,000 pro votes that will be counted in 11 days. (of which 90% should be valid and some of those 75% projected for kerry)
plus absentee ballots.

realisticly speaking. its more than likely to make up that 120K.

i am not holding my breathe

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:44 AM
Mark Racicot, Bush's campaign manager, said that the numbers from the Sec of State in Ohio were more like 140K provisional ballots. And that in order for Kerry to win, something like 94% of those would have to be VALID and be FOR KERRY. But supposedly earlier this year, provisional ballots in Illinois were found to only be valid around 17% of the time. So, it doesn't sound too good for John Kerry.

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:49 AM
this why so few americans vote,

Maybe you should get your head out of your arse and look at the numbers. Bush got MORE VOTES in this election than ANY OTHER PRESIDENT in the history of the USA.

And since it's so close (even though Bush won the popular vote), that would indicate that VOTER TURNOUT this year was HIGHER THAN EVER....even after 2000.

BTW, a lot of libs were so quick to point out that Gore won the popular vote last election. For some reason, you people don't seem to find the popular vote as significant as 2000. Why is that? :rolleyes:

turt
Nov 3rd, 2004, 11:52 AM
How about a link to that?

Everything that I heard said that Bush still would have won after all of the recounts. You're BSing!

And as for the number of voters, wasn't this an even higher turnout than 2000?
A simple google search gave me this: http://www.google.be/search?q=cache:5pXJ5ka7H-kJ:democrats.com/display.cfm%3Fid%3D181%2520+florida+2000+recount&hl=fr

Lee-Waters' Boy
Nov 3rd, 2004, 02:09 PM
A simple google search gave me this: http://www.google.be/search?q=cache:5pXJ5ka7H-kJ:democrats.com/display.cfm%3Fid%3D181%2520+florida+2000+recount&hl=fr
lol a simple search brought up a democrats.com webpage. how objective

cheesestix
Nov 3rd, 2004, 02:59 PM
Read it and weep....

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

Florida recount study: Bush still wins

Study reveals flaws in ballots, voter errors may have cost Gore victory


A county employee shows a ballot to a National Opinion Research Center coding team. The coders marked their observations on specially designed, triplicate coding forms. They were not allowed to confer.
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A comprehensive study of the 2000 presidential election in Florida suggests that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a statewide vote recount to proceed, Republican candidate George W. Bush would still have been elected president.

The National Opinion Research Center (NORC) at the University of Chicago conducted the six-month study for a consortium of eight news media companies, including CNN.

NORC dispatched an army of trained investigators to examine closely every rejected ballot in all 67 Florida counties, including handwritten and punch-card ballots. The NORC team of coders were able to examine about 99 percent of them, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators. In addition, the uncertainties of human judgment, combined with some counties' inability to produce the same undervotes and overvotes that they saw last year, create a margin of error that makes the study instructive but not definitive in its findings.

As well as attempting to discern voter intent in ballots that might have been re-examined had the recount gone forward, the study also looked at the possible effect of poor ballot design, voter error and malfunctioning machines. That secondary analysis suggests that more Florida voters may have gone to the polls intending to vote for Democrat Al Gore but failed to cast a valid vote.

In releasing the report, the consortium said it is in no way trying to rewrite history or challenge the official result -- that Bush won Florida by 537 votes. Rather it is simply trying to bring some additional clarity to one of the most confusing chapters in U.S. politics.

Florida Supreme Court recount ruling

On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore.


Gore's four-county strategy

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.



The news media consortium then tested a number of other hypothetical scenarios.

Use of Palm Beach County standard

Out of Palm Beach County emerged one of the least restrictive standards for determining a valid punch-card ballot. The county elections board determined that a chad hanging by up to two corners was valid and that a dimple or a chad detached in only one corner could also count if there were similar marks in other races on the same ballot. If that standard had been adopted statewide, the study shows a slim, 42-vote margin for Gore.

Inclusion of overvotes

In addition to undervotes, thousands of ballots in the Florida presidential election were invalidated because they had too many marks. This happened, for example, when a voter correctly marked a candidate and also wrote in that candidate's name. The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes.


A county worker displays an optical scan ballot through a viewing window.
The butterfly and caterpillar ballots

One of the most controversial aspects of the Florida election was the so-called butterfly ballot used in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County. Many voters came out of the polls saying they were confused by the ballot design.

According to the study, 5,277 voters made a clean punch for Gore and a clean punch for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan, candidates whose political philosophies are poles apart. An additional 1,650 voters made clean punches for Bush and Buchanan. If many of the Buchanan votes were in error brought on by a badly designed ballot, a CNN analysis found that Gore could have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

Eighteen other counties used another confusing ballot design known as the "caterpillar" or "broken" ballot, where six or seven presidential candidates are listed in one column and the names of the remaining minor party candidates appeared at the top of a second one. According to the study, more than 15,000 people who voted for either Gore or Bush also selected one candidate in the second column, apparently thinking the second column represented a new race.

Had many of these voters not marked a minor candidate in the second column, Gore would have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

However, the double votes on both butterfly and caterpillar ballots were clearly invalid under any interpretation of the law.

Limits of the study

The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago study was commissioned by eight media companies -- The Associated Press, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, the St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post, The Washington Post and the Tribune Co., which includes the Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, the Orlando Sentinel and Baltimore Sun, as well as other papers.


A county worker displays a punch-card ballot to a NORC coder.
NORC used experienced staff researchers to supervise and train a larger pool of investigators, who then fanned out across Florida and personally examined 175,010 ballots provided by local election officials. The investigators recorded exactly what they saw on each ballot but made no attempt to determine whether the vote should have been counted.

From there, the media consortium took over, analyzing the raw data produced by NORC and drawing conclusions for various hypothetical scenarios.

As with any large-scale study, the NORC data is subject to some important limitations.

NORC reported serious problems with record keeping at many local election offices. NORC relied on these offices to produce the rejected ballots, but county officials were unable to deliver as many as 2,200 problem ballots to NORC investigators.

Although trained to produce accurate, impartial reports, the NORC investigators are human and prone to human judgment and error. In particular, NORC discovered that male investigators were more likely to record marks on ballots than women. NORC also found a slight but statistically significant relationship between candidate marks and the investigators' party affiliation.

Most importantly, there is no guarantee that the judgments of the NORC investigators would have matched those of local election boards had the recount been permitted to proceed under any scenario.

Lee-Waters' Boy
Nov 3rd, 2004, 03:45 PM
what are you talking about, democrats.com is a more reliable news source than cnn

turt
Nov 3rd, 2004, 04:03 PM
(...)

Out of Palm Beach County emerged one of the least restrictive standards for determining a valid punch-card ballot. The county elections board determined that a chad hanging by up to two corners was valid and that a dimple or a chad detached in only one corner could also count if there were similar marks in other races on the same ballot. If that standard had been adopted statewide, the study shows a slim, 42-vote margin for Gore.

Inclusion of overvotes

In addition to undervotes, thousands of ballots in the Florida presidential election were invalidated because they had too many marks. This happened, for example, when a voter correctly marked a candidate and also wrote in that candidate's name. The consortium looked at what might have happened if a statewide recount had included these overvotes as well and found that Gore would have had a margin of fewer than 200 votes.


A county worker displays an optical scan ballot through a viewing window.
The butterfly and caterpillar ballots

One of the most controversial aspects of the Florida election was the so-called butterfly ballot used in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County. Many voters came out of the polls saying they were confused by the ballot design.

According to the study, 5,277 voters made a clean punch for Gore and a clean punch for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan, candidates whose political philosophies are poles apart. An additional 1,650 voters made clean punches for Bush and Buchanan. If many of the Buchanan votes were in error brought on by a badly designed ballot, a CNN analysis found that Gore could have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

Eighteen other counties used another confusing ballot design known as the "caterpillar" or "broken" ballot, where six or seven presidential candidates are listed in one column and the names of the remaining minor party candidates appeared at the top of a second one. According to the study, more than 15,000 people who voted for either Gore or Bush also selected one candidate in the second column, apparently thinking the second column represented a new race.

Had many of these voters not marked a minor candidate in the second column, Gore would have netted thousands of additional votes as compared with Bush.

(...)

Most importantly, there is no guarantee that the judgments of the NORC investigators would have matched those of local election boards had the recount been permitted to proceed under any scenario.Mmmh, yeah, your article is really convincing indeed...