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AnaIvanovicFan
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:25 PM
I mean c'mon, that girl was a GENIUS. shes been #1 for like 56789 weeks, has she ever been outside the top 5 after reaching #1 in 97???

Take the williams sisters, they're still playing and they're not even in the top 10 :eek:

Hingis retired when she still was winning tournaments, shes so awesome.

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:28 PM
I mean c'mon, that girl was a GENIUS. shes been #1 for like 56789 weeks, has she ever been outside the top 5 after reaching #1 in 97???

Take the williams sisters, they're still playing and they're not even in the top 10 :eek:

Hingis retired when she still was winning tournaments, shes so awesome.

Hingis and the Williams sistah's are great players. There's no need to compare the two. :devil: :devil: :devil:

pigam
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:29 PM
:uh-ooh: :bolt:

Sugiyama=#1
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:29 PM
Yes she is a genius. But saying she the the greatest player might be a bit over the top.

!<blocparty>!
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:37 PM
:lol: :retard:

Pengwin
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:39 PM
Navvy and Graffy did a lot more in their carreers though, but if Hingis continued to play and win she could be considered the greates of all time.

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:46 PM
Navvy and Graffy did a lot more in their carreers though, but if Hingis continued to play and win she could be considered the greates of all time.


Don' think so.
She even lost slam finals to grandmas with reconstructed knee.
And consider her opponents when she won slams: Pierce, Novotna, V. Williams (just 17), Martinez, Mauresmo. Only 2 "blue chip" slams, but 3 AOs.
She KNEW in summer of 99 that she never would be the "greatest of all time". That broke her heart .....

New_balls_please
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:49 PM
Hingis :kiss: But don't forget Graf, ASV, Navratilova, Austin, Evert. They were pretty good too!

SJW
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:52 PM
I mean c'mon, that girl was a GENIUS. shes been #1 for like 56789 weeks, has she ever been outside the top 5 after reaching #1 in 97???

Take the williams sisters, they're still playing and they're not even in the top 10 :eek:

Hingis retired when she still was winning tournaments, shes so awesome.

poor little misguided fool :kiss:

i love Hingis...but....you obviously only followed tennis when Hingis was winning :o

houseoflords
Oct 22nd, 2004, 07:19 PM
As good as Hingis was, she was nowhere near as good as Graf.

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 07:23 PM
Hingis :kiss: But don't forget Graf, ASV, Navratilova, Austin, Evert. They were pretty good too!


You REALLY think Graf was as good as Hingis?
Wow .....

Jelena Moon
Oct 22nd, 2004, 07:30 PM
Puhlease Graf fails in comparison to Monica Seles, Monica had owned Graf

FrauleinSteffi
Oct 22nd, 2004, 07:58 PM
Um I think Steffi Graf has that under wraps:) honorable mention for Martina N & Chris Evert:)

lakeway11
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:25 PM
Puhlease Graf fails in comparison to Monica Seles, Monica had owned Graf

logic 101:

premise1: Seles owned Graf

pemise 2: Hingis owned Seles

conclusion: therefore, Hingis is the greatest :bounce:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:29 PM
You REALLY think Graf was as good as Hingis?
Wow .....

Hingis was more DESERVING than Graf by most accounts. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:30 PM
Um I think Steffi Graf has that under wraps:) honorable mention for Martina N & Chris Evert:)

maybe 9th honorable mention. :lol:

griffin
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:32 PM
logic 101:

premise1: Seles owned Graf

pemise 2: Hingis owned Seles

conclusion: therefore, Hingis is the greatest :bounce:

Interesting conclusion considering that Graf owns a 7-3 head-to-head record over Miss Hingis.

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:32 PM
Don' think so.
She even lost slam finals to grandmas with reconstructed knee.
And consider her opponents when she won slams: Pierce, Novotna, V. Williams (just 17), Martinez, Mauresmo. Only 2 "blue chip" slams, but 3 AOs.
She KNEW in summer of 99 that she never would be the "greatest of all time". That broke her heart .....

Hingis was more enjoyable to watch. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:34 PM
Interesting conclusion considering that Graf owns a 7-2 head-to-head record over Miss Hingis.

Did Hingis ever benefit from something? :lol: :lol: :lol:

les battersby
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:34 PM
Hingis was more enjoyable to watch. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Especially at Roland Garros when she bawled her eyes out! Now if only the WTA had made that event PPV.

jcaprulez
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:39 PM
She is one of the best. But Graf, Navratilova and Jcap are better.

Pengwin
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:41 PM
logic 101:

premise1: Seles owned Graf

pemise 2: Hingis owned Seles

conclusion: therefore, Hingis is the greatest :bounce:

yeah but

Serena owned Hingis

Sharapova owned Serena

Myskina owned Sharapova

so Myskina is the greates ever :lol:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:42 PM
Especially at Roland Garros when she bawled her eyes out! Now if only the WTA had made that event PPV.

But she was always a BEAUTY, dont you think? :devil:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:43 PM
Especially at Roland Garros when she bawled her eyes out! Now if only the WTA had made that event PPV.

But she was always a beauty, dont you think? :devil: :devil: :devil:

jcaprulez
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:43 PM
yeah but

Sharapova owned Serena

Myskina owned Sharapova

so Myskina is the greates ever :lol:

They've not played each other enough for one to own the other.

les battersby
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:48 PM
But she was always a BEAUTY, dont you think? :devil:


Whatever you say honey. :kiss:

jcaprulez
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:51 PM
What is it with coronation street on this forum. I saw a guy called Jack Duckworth talked about in a thread and now Les Battersby has joined.

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:53 PM
Whatever you say honey. :kiss:

Thanks Darling. :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 08:59 PM
Puhlease Graf fails in comparison to Monica Seles, Monica had owned Graf


Graf vs. Seles (H2H)

Before Seles became #1: 3-2
When Seles was #1 (pre-stabbing): 3-2
When Seles was #1 (post-stabbing): 2-0
After Seles was #1: 2-1

At slams: 6-4
At non-slams: 4-1
At Wimbledon: 2-0
At USO: 2-0


"Owned"?
Yeah .......

:lol:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:03 PM
Hingis was more DESERVING than Graf by most accounts. :lol: :lol: :lol:


You like quickies?
Seles had 2.5 good years.
Same with Hingis.

Real greats have at least 10 good years.

That is the difference between the good and the great.

:angel:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:03 PM
Graf vs. Seles (H2H)

Before Seles became #1: 3-2
When Seles was #1 (pre-stabbing): 3-2
When Seles was #1 (post-stabbing): 2-0
After Seles was #1: 2-1

At slams: 6-4
At non-slams: 4-1
At Wimbledon: 2-0
At USO: 2-0


"Owned"?
Yeah .......

:lol:

Seles was #1 while your Graf was #2. Monica Seles won 8 Grand Slams while poor Stefanie only won 2 GS at the height of their rivalry. Monica already had a 4-3 advantage over Stefanie when she was ranked number one. Stefanie was simply not good enough to beat Seles and play at her pace that's why she was NUMBER TWO. :devil: :devil: :devil:
That's when Gunther and Calimero really got beserked. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:06 PM
You like quickies?
Seles had 2.5 good years.
Same with Hingis.

Real greats have at least 10 good years.

That is the difference between the good and the great.

:angel:

How about those questionable Gunther Parche years with your idol. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:06 PM
Interesting conclusion considering that Graf owns a 7-3 head-to-head record over Miss Hingis.



7-2.

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:07 PM
Graf vs. Seles (H2H)


"Owned"?
Yeah .......

:lol:

Why was Graf ranked behind Monica if she was oh so good. :haha: :haha: :haha:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:08 PM
7-2.

I think people talk more about the questionable slams. :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:09 PM
Hingis was more enjoyable to watch. :lol: :lol: :lol:


If people like you say this then it's almost the kiss of death for Hingis .....

:eek:

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:11 PM
If people like you say this then it's almost the kiss of death for Hingis .....

:eek:

Hingis was obviously a lovely lady. :devil: :devil: :devil:

SJW
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:12 PM
yeah but

Serena owned Hingis

Sharapova owned Serena

Myskina owned Sharapova

so Myskina is the greates ever :lol:

Sharapova doesn't own Serena. 1 each thank you very much, and Sharapova never WILL own Serena.

LDVTennis
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:14 PM
Especially at Roland Garros when she bawled her eyes out! Now if only the WTA had made that event PPV.

I would have paid for that.

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:15 PM
Did Hingis ever benefit from something? :lol: :lol: :lol:


Hingis won 5 slams in 97/99.
Could that have been because of Graf's injuries and absence in 97/98?
Probably - because even an aging Graf with a reconstructed knee was able to beat Hingis in 2 of 3 matches when she returned to the game. Especially in the most important one, FO 99 final.

Can we compare that with Graf in 93/95 when she won 6 slams in Seles's absence?
Probably not - because even a Seles in peak prime tennis age (21-25) could only beat Graf in one of five matches after her return. And not in the two most important ones, USO 95 & 96 finals.

Does it sink in slowly?

:lol:

AnaIvanovicFan
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:16 PM
seles is better than graf

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:17 PM
Sharapova doesn't own Serena. 1 each thank you very much, and Sharapova never WILL own Serena.

Sharapova vs Serena is the best rivalry is women's tennis. I agree, Nobody owns anybody yet.

SJW
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:17 PM
Sharapova vs Serena is the best rivalry is women's tennis. I agree, Nobody owns anybody yet.

how can two matches be a rivalry?

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:19 PM
seles is better than graf

no doubt about it, everybody in the sportsworld already knows about it years ago except for the few seles detractors in this board. :devil: :devil: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:20 PM
I think people talk more about the questionable slams. :lol:


Which slam would be the questionable one?

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:20 PM
how can two matches be a rivalry?

good point.

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:21 PM
Which slam would be the questionable one?

you dont know? . :haha: :haha:

Calimero377
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:22 PM
seles is better than graf


In what?
Eating burgers?
Grunting?

Athena
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:24 PM
In what?
Eating burgers?
Grunting?

brittling sticks. :lol:

AnaIvanovicFan
Oct 22nd, 2004, 09:25 PM
stop the fighting, both of them are legends

She-ra
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:35 AM
Hingis won 5 slams in 97/99.
Could that have been because of Graf's injuries and absence in 97/98?
Probably - because even an aging Graf with a reconstructed knee was able to beat Hingis in 2 of 3 matches when she returned to the game. Especially in the most important one, FO 99 final.

Does it sink in slowly?

:lol:

For you to not give Gunther Parche his rightful place certainly takes away from your credibility on here.

The #1 player in women's tennis in the early years of the 1990s was clearly Monica Seles and there was no end in sight for that domination. :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:37 AM
Graf vs. Seles (H2H)

Before Seles became #1: 3-2
When Seles was #1 (pre-stabbing): 3-2
When Seles was #1 (post-stabbing): 2-0
After Seles was #1: 2-1

At slams: 6-4
At non-slams: 4-1
At Wimbledon: 2-0
At USO: 2-0


"Owned"?
Yeah .......

:lol:



Before the stabbing, Graf had a 6-4 lead, with her early 3-0 lead slipping........and had just been handed her hat consecutively at the French, and rather easily at the Aussie......

But hey, don't take my word for it....take Steffi's...she herself said after she was easily dismissed 6-2 in the third by Monica at the Aussie, that she simply "could not figure out" how to beat Monica........

It's her quote, not mine....... :kiss:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:55 AM
Before the stabbing, Graf had a 6-4 lead, with her early 3-0 lead slipping........and had just been handed her hat consecutively at the French, and rather easily at the Aussie......

But hey, don't take my word for it....take Steffi's...she herself said after she was easily dismissed 6-2 in the third by Monica at the Aussie, that she simply "could not figure out" how to beat Monica........

It's her quote, not mine....... :kiss:

right on shera :worship: what a name :confused: :)

Some Graf fanatics most notably this little CALIMERO troll cannot accept the fact that Seles was number one and won 7 out of 8 GS, 2 out 3 GS fianls against Graf, and 2 WTA Ye champs during that period to establish herself as the dominant player. Seles was the best among the rest for which the rest includes Graf. It's as if they feel to aknowlege that it MINIMIZES Graf, thus the SELES BASHING. :devil: :devil: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:05 AM
Before the stabbing, Graf had a 6-4 lead, with her early 3-0 lead slipping........and had just been handed her hat consecutively at the French, and rather easily at the Aussie......

Wow, what a "slipping"!
From 3-0 to 6-4 ......

BTW, Seles's FO and AO wins didn't happen consecutively.
They played in between. The venue was Wimbledon .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

... But hey, don't take my word for it....take Steffi's...she herself said after she was easily dismissed 6-2 in the third by Monica at the Aussie, that she simply "could not figure out" how to beat Monica........

It's her quote, not mine......

Graf never said that. You are faking a quote.

CooCooCachoo
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:08 AM
It is impossible to compare players who played in different era's, I think. But Martina definitely is one of the best players of all times.

Volcana
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:09 AM
I mean c'mon, that girl was a GENIUS. shes been #1 for like 56789 weeks, has she ever been outside the top 5 after reaching #1 in 97???

Take the williams sisters, they're still playing and they're not even in the top 10 :eek:

Hingis retired when she still was winning tournaments, shes so awesome.No doubt Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert and King would agree. THey don't ever mention Hingis when asked who they think is the best, but but OF COURSE they think that. The records of those players pale next to Hingis.

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:11 AM
Wow, what a "slipping"!
From 3-0 to 6-4 ......

BTW, Seles's FO and AO wins didn't happen consecutively.
They played in between. The venue was Wimbledon .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Graf never said that. You are faking a quote.

in denial again. :lol: :lol: :lol: if im not mistaken that quote she used was at the post match press conference Graf interview at the 1993 Australian Open. Everybody knows it except you? :tape: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:13 AM
For you to not give Gunther Parche his rightful place certainly takes away from your credibility on here.

The #1 player in women's tennis in the early years of the 1990s was clearly Monica Seles and there was no end in sight for that domination. :kiss:


Seles lead Graf in the WTA-rankings with 58 pts. at end of 1991, with 32 pts. at end of 1992 and with 21 pts. in April 1993, just before The Stabbing.
Graf made the AO final in 93 for the first time in three years.
Graf had made her most convincing Wimbledon appearance in 92 for 3 years.
Graf had played her best FO in 92 since 88.

She was clearly on the rise.
Seles was already gaining weight in 93.
And many experts said that with her style of play injuries (shoulder etc.) were set to come. Which they did in 96 (because Seles took a 2.25-year time out in 93/95).

For the Seles "domination" (in non-Wimbledon slams, because in other areas there was no domination) the end was in sight.
Proof is that Seles couldn't cope with Graf in 95/96 and that her down-slide took up steam post-96. Her career-trajectory was clearly downwards. The Stabbing only postponed that development.

:wavey:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:17 AM
Wow, what a "slipping"!
From 3-0 to 6-4 ......

BTW, Seles's FO and AO wins didn't happen consecutively.
They played in between. The venue was Wimbledon .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:



Wow .. now THAT is amazing ... because you have really confused me, boy ... you are completely clueless and --- amazingly enough --- you appear to be CLUELESS that you are clueless. :haha: :haha: :haha:

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:17 AM
right on shera :worship: what a name :confused: :)

Some Graf fanatics most notably this little CALIMERO troll cannot accept the fact that Seles was number one and won 7 out of 8 GS, 2 out 3 GS fianls against Graf, and 2 WTA Ye champs during that period to establish herself as the dominant player. Seles was the best among the rest for which the rest includes Graf. It's as if they feel to aknowlege that it MINIMIZES Graf, thus the SELES BASHING. :devil: :devil: :devil:

Graf won 8 out of 9 slams in 88/90 - among them 2 Wimbledons.
BTW, "Oh, one last question: Exactly how many Wimbledon titles has, did, or will Seles win? Was that 'zero' I heard? it sure was. Enough said."
(Stephen Thomas, FOXSports.com, August 13, 1999)


Seles was #1 in 91/92.
Sanchez was #1 in 95, Hingis in 97/99.

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:19 AM
in denial again. :lol: :lol: :lol: if im not mistaken that quote she used was at the post match press conference Graf interview at the 1993 Australian Open. Everybody knows it except you? :tape: :devil: :devil: :devil:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
"If I'm not mistaken ....."

Yeah ......

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:32 AM
Seles lead Graf in the WTA-rankings with 58 pts. at end of 1991, with 32 pts. at end of 1992 and with 21 pts. in April 1993, just before The Stabbing.
Graf made the AO final in 93 for the first time in three years.
Graf had made her most convincing Wimbledon appearance in 92 for 3 years.
Graf had played her best FO in 92 since 88.

She was clearly on the rise.
Seles was already gaining weight in 93.
And many experts said that with her style of play injuries (shoulder etc.) were set to come. Which they did in 96 (because Seles took a 2.25-year time out in 93/95).

For the Seles "domination" (in non-Wimbledon slams, because in other areas there was no domination) the end was in sight.
Proof is that Seles couldn't cope with Graf in 95/96 and that her down-slide took up steam post-96. Her career-trajectory was clearly downwards. The Stabbing only postponed that development.

:wavey:


I agree that Graf would have been the favorite on grass, but as to both fast hardcourts and indoor carpet, I can't see Graf being an overwhelming favorite. At her best peak years (91-93) Seles was just as formidable in the indoor carpet (3 straight YE WTA champs) and fast hardcourt (2 USO titles.) In fact her results on both fast hardcourts and indoor carpet were superior to Graf if you count the major tounament in each surface for the period 91-93...

One of the *myths* that has been perpetuated by Graffanatics is that somehow Seles was so *much* weaker on the faster surfaces..... and they base this on one W final in 1992 (Seles didn't play in 1991) and the fact that Seles lost to Graf in ONE hardcourt tournament in 3 1/3 years (90-93). They use these statistic to extrapolate that Seles was dominated even during her peak years by Graf in these surfaces...

I can think of no other instance where fans of one player (Graf)use one match each on two different surfaces (hardcourt/grass) to then project the overall superirotiy of their candidate, (circa 91-93) totally disregarding the overall results in the premiere tournament of EACH surface those years as not the overriding criteria....

IMO, the statistical sample is so miniscule as to be irelevant as far as being the basis of any conclusive data (as opposed, to say, Evert versus MN on grass, Sampars versus Agassi on harcourts, etc, etc,,,) during the Seles *peak* years before the stabbing....

It really is strange how *little* they actually played during those years, I mean 5 matches in 2 1/3 years is practically nothing... and if you include 1990 Seles/Graf played a total of 7 matches for 3 1/3 years, averaging 2 matches per year....

As to Grass, One could just as easily extrapolate that Seles was improving in each W tournament she entered until hitting the final in 92 at the age of 18...(beating MN in the semis)..so she would continue to improve...

The fact that that Seles, after a 2 1/2 year absence took Graf, playing at her *peak* (had won both FO and W that year) to 3 close sets on the fast hardcourt 95 USO finals (even won the second set 6-0) IMO is indicative that during that abssence their *potential* matches on harcourts could have been very competitive indeed.....(as well as very entertaining)

Mind you, I'm not saying Seles would have won all those mathces but I do think that Graf DID not have a clear edge on Seles, who after all was four years younger and still improving.

As to clay and rebound ace...Seles has a CLEAR EDGE over Graf that's why she was number one and Graf was NUMBER TWO. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Little Calimero still CLUELESS ? :haha: :haha: :haha:

irma
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:35 AM
the person who said monica was owning steffi.

fact is:
the head to head is 5:10. not more and not less

it's not nice to deny 8 years of a career because somebody was not winning and make excuses already beforehand why she was not winning. that's very disrespectfull to the player who was out there doing her best!

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:43 AM
the person who said monica was owning steffi.

fact is:
the head to head is 5:10. not more and not less

it's not nice to deny 8 years of a career because somebody was not winning and make excuses already beforehand why she was not winning. that's very disrespectfull to the player who was out there doing her best!

you are twisting the facts to suite your favored player. :lol: It was 6-4 before Gunther Parche came into the picture. But, Seles won 4 of her last 7 matches against second ranked Graf and was 3-1 in GS Finals against Graf.
Seles won 8 slams to Graf's 2 at the their peak of their rivalry. :lol: :lol: So who was ranked NUMBER ONE at WTA computer rankings during that period-- Graf or Seles?. :tape:

barmaid
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:07 AM
Martina Hingis has been compared to a "shooting star"...so brilliant in capturing so many accomplishments in her early years and falling ever so gracefully to earth with amazing quickness...the once "shining brilliance" over far too soon. :sad: But while she was there, she eclipsed far more than any other player for that short term..thats what she will be remembered for...not the all-time greatest..but the greatest to have accompished so much in such a short time:hearts: :kiss: :worship: The unforgetable Marti!!:hearts: :worship:


barmaid:wavey:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:08 AM
the person who said monica was owning steffi.



If Seles did not own Graf then why did Graf went down 3-1 GS Finals against Seles; 8 GS wins for Monica, 2 GS Wins for Graf; What why was Monica ranked ahead of Graf from June 1991- Mid 1993 (pre-stabbing). :lol: :lol: :lol:
What you're saying was that Graf owned Monica? :tape: :devil:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:10 AM
Martina Hingis has been compared to a "shooting star"...so brilliant in capturing so many accomplishments in her early years and falling ever so gracefully to earth with amazing quickness...the once "shining brilliance" over far too soon. :sad: But while she was there, she eclipsed far more than any other player for that short term..thats what she will be remembered for...not the all-time greatest..but the greatest to have accompished so much in such a short time:hearts: :kiss: :worship: The unforgetable Marti!!:hearts: :worship:


barmaid:wavey:

I agree. :worship: And to think that this some insecure graffanatics likes to put her down. :rolleyes:
:devil: :devil: :devil:

irma
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:15 AM
I agree. :worship: And to think that this some insecure graffanatics likes to put her down. :rolleyes:
:devil: :devil: :devil:
I thought tennis didn't count after april 93 according to you;)

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:18 AM
I thought tennis didn't count after april 93 according to you;)

That was about Hingis. silly. :devil:

Chrissie-fan
Oct 23rd, 2004, 08:07 AM
Well,those that argue that Monica is the best ever aren't very convincing if they base that opinion on the fact that she "dominated" a player (Steffi) who wasn't (in their opinion) one of the all time greats as well. Goes both ways of course.

As for Hingis,I think she's been the most talented players in recent times. But tennis has been around for a lot longer than 10 years.

Why was Graf ranked behind Monica if she was oh so good. :haha: :haha: :haha:

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:26 AM
If Seles did not own Graf then why did Graf went down 3-1 GS Finals against Seles; 8 GS wins for Monica, 2 GS Wins for Graf; What why was Monica ranked ahead of Graf from June 1991- Mid 1993 (pre-stabbing). :lol: :lol: :lol:
What you're saying was that Graf owned Monica? :tape: :devil:


Graf won THREE slams in 90-92 - AO 90, Wim 91 & 92.
Graf was #1 going into USO 91.
Get your facts right!

In those 4 slam finals between both in 90/93 Seles won 51-49 games in aggregate but was trailing with 329-333 on points played (hey, I like stats!) .....
Seles herself said the FO 92 final "could have gone either way".
That's not domination in my book.

And I don't want to mention Graf's two win in 91 in non-slams here .......

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:46 AM
....
IMO, the statistical sample is so miniscule as to be irelevant as far as being the basis of any conclusive data (as opposed, to say, Evert versus MN on grass, Sampars versus Agassi on harcourts, etc, etc,,,) during the Seles *peak* years before the stabbing....

That coming from you is strange.
Selesians want to extrapolate from two FO wins in 90 and 92 (two years apart) against Graf that Seles was a better clay courter than Graf.
Seles won the 90 FO final 74-73 on points played (Graf being in the whirlwind of her blackmail scandal in those weeks) and the 92 final with 10-8 in 3rd.

Selesians are the big extrapolaters here.
Grafans don't need to do this. Graf has the titles ......







....
As to Grass, One could just as easily extrapolate that Seles was improving in each W tournament she entered until hitting the final in 92 at the age of 18...(beating MN in the semis)..so she would continue to improve...



Beating a 35-year-old Navi with 6-4 in 3rd set .....
BTW, Navi was blown off the court at Wimbledon 3 & 4 years earlier by Graf.
Graf destroyed Seles 6-0, 6-1 at Wimbledon 89 - 11 months before Seles won her first slam.
Seles never would have been a threat to Graf at Wimbledon as ASV for example. Her game simply was to one-dimensional.

BTW, why didn't Seles improve post-95?
She had many, many years.
To excuse everything with The Stabbing is simply pathetic.
I don't even think Seles herself does that.



....

The fact that that Seles, after a 2 1/2 year absence took Graf, playing at her *peak* (had won both FO and W that year) to 3 close sets on the fast hardcourt 95 USO finals (even won the second set 6-0) IMO is indicative that during that abssence their *potential* matches on harcourts could have been very competitive indeed.....(as well as very entertaining) ....


Graf's dad had been thrown into prison just 4 weeks earlier.
Graf had bombed out at Canadian Open in first round 2 weeks earlier.
Graf was injured (had X-ray the night before).
Graf wasn't the crowd favourite. Everybody wanted her to lose.
Graf nevertheless won. A miracle ....

....
Mind you, I'm not saying Seles would have won all those mathces but I do think that Graf DID not have a clear edge on Seles, who after all was four years younger and still improving.

As to clay and rebound ace...Seles has a CLEAR EDGE over Graf that's why she was number one and Graf was NUMBER TWO ....


The clear edge on clay when Seles was #1?
Your basis being 2 matches in 91/92 on that surface with both winning 1 of them?
If we add the games played of the Hamburg 91 and the FO 92 match we get:
35-34 in Graf's favour.
Oops ........

Don't play with the big boys.
But at last you are discussing numbers and stats.
That could get interesting in the end ...





:wavey:

MrSerenaWilliams
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:58 AM
logic 101:

premise1: Seles owned Graf

pemise 2: Hingis owned Seles

conclusion: therefore, Hingis is the greatest :bounce:
Venus owned Seles too (9-1 h2h)

So VENUS is the GREATEST EVER.....actually since Hingis owned Venus, but Serena owned both....SERENA IS THE GREATEST EVER!

Zarus!
Oct 23rd, 2004, 12:42 PM
weeks at #1:
Graf - 377
Navratilova - 331
Evert - 262
Hingis - 209
Seles - 178
Serena - 57

Martian Jeza
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:20 PM
poor little misguided fool :kiss:

i love Hingis...but....you obviously only followed tennis when Hingis was winning :o

Said the Glory Hunter : Hilarious :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Experimentee
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:24 PM
AnaIvanovicFan you are really showing your age (or lack thereof) with these threads that you made :lol:

She-ra
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:30 PM
Well,those that argue that Monica is the best ever aren't very convincing if they base that opinion on the fact that she "dominated" a player (Steffi) who wasn't (in their opinion) one of the all time greats as well. Goes both ways of course.

As for Hingis,I think she's been the most talented players in recent times. But tennis has been around for a lot longer than 10 years.

Monica Seles was ranked NUMBER ONE in the world from 1991 up until the stabbing) and won 7 of the 9 Grand Slams she contested with rival world number two Steffi Graf.
Seles also won almost all of the top tier tournaments that mattered including the Season Ending Championships 3 years running...and yet Seles was not the BEST PLAYER at the beginning of the 90's decade? Then who was?

The TRUTH remains that Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis in those 30 months (1990-early 1993) leading up to the stabbing --- EVERY major event in women's tennis other than Wimbledon between the 1990 WTA Championships and the 1993 Australian Open.

MONICA SELES CHAMPION------------ STEFFI GRAF CHAMPION
1990 Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open----------------------------------- 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open--------------------------------- 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open April 30 - Germany stabbing

The way Seles beat Steffi Graf to win the 1993 Australian Open for a 3rd consecutive singles title there certainly did not suggest that Seles was close to ending her dominance.It took something beyond Steffi Graf to stop Seles. It was Gunther Parche who ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open and of course the number one ranking when he stabbed this dominant teen phenom in the back with a sharp knife. :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:37 PM
That coming from you is strange.
Selesians want to extrapolate from two FO wins in 90 and 92 (two years apart) against Graf that Seles was a better clay courter than Graf.
Seles won the 90 FO final 74-73 on points played (Graf being in the whirlwind of her blackmail scandal in those weeks) and the 92 final with 10-8 in 3rd.

Selesians are the big extrapolaters here.
Grafans don't need to do this. Graf has the titles ......


The truth was that Steff Graf lost the number one ranking to Monica Seles in March of 1991. Steffi challenged for it twice and held it again very briefly twice in mid 1991 but ultimately LOST THAT CHALLENGE.....

In fact, Steffi never again challenged Monica at number one after that summer in 1991....NEVER, unitl after the stabbing of a jealous Graf fan in April 1993, due to Seles' absence.

Steffi still did not overtake Monica at the start of 1993 ( 3 months before the stabbing) as she lost the Aussie open Final 1993, rather decisely, 6-2 in the third......One week after the stabbing, the tour's top 24 players which included second ranked Graf were asked by WTA Executive Director Gerard Smith to vote on whether to freeze Monica's number one ranking. When the ballots were tabulated, the answer was NO...with the sole exception of Gabriela Sabatini.

In Seles's absence, Steffi had again come to dominate women's tennis and moved back to number one in the Spring of 1993 as Monica Seles was unable to defend all the points she have won in 1992. Seles had more points to defend as she virtually dominated the tournaments in 1992.

It was almost as though the game had slipped through a wrinkle in time. Suddenly it was the late 80's again and Graf was nothing short of invincible. She had reigned for 186 weeks from August 17, 1987 to March 10, 1991-- and now she reigned again as number one. With World #1 Seles out of the picture, Graf suddenly became the best player in the women's game and started winning all those HOLLOW Grand Slams. Seles was eventually dropped from the WTA Tour Rankings on February 14, 1993

Steffi went from a demoralizing 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven.....it was a total reversal of fortune for Steffi Graf.

Is this is mere coincidence???? that Graf went from winning ONE Grand slam in three years to winning four consecutive in one year happens to be totally unrelated to the stabbing of Monica???? :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:46 PM
weeks at #1:
Graf - 377
Navratilova - 331
Evert - 262
Hingis - 209
Seles - 178
Serena - 57

weeks at #1

Navratilova 331
Evert 262
Hingis 209
Parche 191 :tape:
Graf 186

:lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Parche is number 4 in the list when he took over the top ranking from Seles in April 30, 1993. :haha: :haha: :haha:

GermanBoy
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:50 PM
Yes, forget Steffi, Navratilova and Chris Evert.... :o

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 10:01 PM
The truth was that Steff Graf lost the number one ranking to Monica Seles in March of 1991. Steffi challenged for it twice and held it again very briefly twice in mid 1991 but ultimately LOST THAT CHALLENGE.....

In fact, Steffi never again challenged Monica at number one after that summer in 1991....NEVER, unitl after the stabbing of a jealous Graf fan in April 1993, due to Seles' absence.

Steffi still did not overtake Monica at the start of 1993 ( 3 months before the stabbing) as she lost the Aussie open Final 1993, rather decisely, 6-2 in the third......One week after the stabbing, the tour's top 24 players which included second ranked Graf were asked by WTA Executive Director Gerard Smith to vote on whether to freeze Monica's number one ranking. When the ballots were tabulated, the answer was NO...with the sole exception of Gabriela Sabatini.
...


Seles won AO 93 with 86-78 on points played, winning the last 7 points.
That is not decisively.
Decisively in MY book is winning 6-2, 6-1 ....

Graf didn't vote as the vote was held in Rome.
Graf didn't play there.
So this is another typical Selesian lie.
Well, what do we expect from those Seles minions ....


....
Steffi went from a demoralizing 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven.....it was a total reversal of fortune for Steffi Graf.

Is this is mere coincidence???? that Graf went from winning ONE Grand slam in three years to winning four consecutive in one year happens to be totally unrelated to the stabbing of Monica????[/B] :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:


What 1-8 record?
Graf won AO 90.
Then Seles won FO 90, AO 91, FO 91.
Then Graf won the most important slam of them all, The Championships (Wimbledon) 91.
Then Seles won USO 91, AO 92, FO 92.
Then Graf won the most important slam of them all, The Championships (Wimbledon) 92.
Then Seles won USO 92 and AO 93.

Even if you start counting AFTER AO 90 (why?) you only get a 2-8 - with the most important two slams going to Steffi.

So this is another typical Selesian lie.
Well, what do we expect from those Selesian minions ....

:wavey:

Calimero377
Oct 23rd, 2004, 10:04 PM
weeks at #1

Navratilova 331
Evert 262
Hingis 209
Parche 191 :tape:
Graf 186

:lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Parche is number 4 in the list. :haha: :haha: :haha:


Graf won USO 95 & 96.
Her opponent was Seles.

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 10:05 PM
Graf won USO 95 & 96.
Her opponent was Seles.

2 of the QUESTIONABLE slams courtesy of Gunther Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe Parche is the All Time Best German player. :tape:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 10:32 PM
The truth was that Steff Graf lost the number one ranking to Monica Seles in March of 1991. Steffi challenged for it twice and held it again very briefly twice in mid 1991 but ultimately LOST THAT CHALLENGE.....

In fact, Steffi never again challenged Monica at number one after that summer in 1991....NEVER, unitl after the stabbing of a jealous Graf fan in April 1993, due to Seles' absence.

Steffi still did not overtake Monica at the start of 1993 ( 3 months before the stabbing) as she lost the Aussie open Final 1993, rather decisely, 6-2 in the third......One week after the stabbing, the tour's top 24 players which included second ranked Graf were asked by WTA Executive Director Gerard Smith to vote on whether to freeze Monica's number one ranking. When the ballots were tabulated, the answer was NO...with the sole exception of Gabriela Sabatini.

In Seles's absence, Steffi had again come to dominate women's tennis and moved back to number one in the Spring of 1993 as Monica Seles was unable to defend all the points she have won in 1992. Seles had more points to defend as she virtually dominated the tournaments in 1992.

It was almost as though the game had slipped through a wrinkle in time. Suddenly it was the late 80's again and Graf was nothing short of invincible. She had reigned for 186 weeks from August 17, 1987 to March 10, 1991-- and now she reigned again as number one. With World #1 Seles out of the picture, Graf suddenly became the best player in the women's game and started winning all those HOLLOW Grand Slams. Seles was eventually dropped from the WTA Tour Rankings on February 14, 1993

Steffi went from a demoralizing 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven.....it was a total reversal of fortune for Steffi Graf.

Is this is mere coincidence???? that Graf went from winning ONE Grand slam in three years to winning four consecutive in one year happens to be totally unrelated to the stabbing of Monica???? :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:


The Graffanatics babble the facts. I agree Queen "Shera". :worship: Graf lost her number one to monica. She had lost both the French and the Australian (rather handily) to Monica. :worship: Graf was not good enough to reach the finals of the Us Open and the Wta Championships.....Monica won those too. :devil:

Graf had wimbledon. Monica had three out of the four major championships in her pocket......twice over successively!!! :devil: :devil:
Graf had won 1/7 Grand Slam titles during Monica's domination :devil:
I really wasnt surprised why Steffi was always the bridesmaid to Monica. :devil:

She-ra
Oct 24th, 2004, 12:17 AM
Graf won USO 95 & 96.
Her opponent was Seles.

The fact remains #1 Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a fan of #2 Graf LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Pretty sad for Calimero to have that as such a huge part of his idol's history. :kiss: