PDA

View Full Version : The Writing Is On The Wall.


lolo7
Oct 22nd, 2004, 04:47 PM
Let me just say I love and adore Venus and I've been pulling for her all year during the ups and downs but there are no excuses anymore. I keep hearing fans say that she needs to play like her old self but in my opioion she is playing like her old but thats not good enough anymore to defeat these players on the tour who are far more better than the tour win Venus was winning titles.This is the problem the tour has improved and Venus hasn't. I know she's been injured but she still needs to get professional help from a coach. Of course Venus is a far more superior player than Sharapova but the difference is Sharapovas is more techiniqnically sound because she is professionally trained.Maybe Venus is in denial or maybe its pride why she doesn't want to seek outside help but I hate to see talent like this wasted. I was watching Roger Federra on Charlie Rose a month ago after he won the US open. Charlie asked what usually causes unforced errors and Federra responsed that it usually due to poor foot work. Venus has always played her games resulting in alot of unfoeced errors but because of her power and athleticism she could overpower the other player. Not anymore. The bottom line is Venus will sadly continue to struggle against the top players if she doesn't get help. The thing is she doesn't even have to make drastic changes in her game all she needs to do is get that forehand and serve together and :sad: :sad: come to the net more.

Fingon
Oct 22nd, 2004, 05:48 PM
Let me just say I love and adore Venus and I've been pulling for her all year during the ups and downs but there are no excuses anymore. I keep hearing fans say that she needs to play like her old self but in my opioion she is playing like her old but thats not good enough anymore to defeat these players on the tour
Very true, Venus's game is not different of what it was before, technically speaking, she maybe be a bit slower and probably not as strong, but it's not her game what is a problem.

3 problems basically;

1) Confidence, Venus in the past felt she could beat anyone, she would go for her shots in the important points because she believed she could do it, it's not the case anymore.

2) Intimidation, a huge factor, many player were defeated against Venus before the match even started, very few players are intimidated now.

3) Power, not that Venus lost it, but during Venus's best years, her power was nearly impossible to handle, since then, players have learnt to deal with it, because most players really hit the ball hard, there are players not named Williams that can hit the ball as hard or harder than Venus (e.g. Karolina Sprem), so it's not an issue anymore. It's said that power enough wouldn't win you matches and that's true, then it was power + placement, and that was what Venus did, now that's not longer enough, you need power, placement, angles, and point construction, you have to go for the winner at the right time and be prepared for the ball to come back.


who are far more better than the tour win Venus was winning titles.This is the problem the tour has improved and Venus hasn't.
well, that's the same that happened to Martina Hingis, she was winning so handly that didn't feel the need to continue developing her game, when she realized it, it was too late.

I know she's been injured but she still needs to get professional help from a coach.
probably more a tactical coach, and someone that makes her believe in herself. I don't think she can now do much technically speaking, she's been playing this style for quite a while, it's difficult to learn new shots or new techniques when your game is mature, in any case, it would be a long term fix.

Of course Venus is a far more superior player than Sharapova but the difference is Sharapovas is more techiniqnically sound because she is professionally trained.
hmmm, how can Venus be a far superior player than Maria if Maria is better technically?, yes, the mental side and that attitude would make a difference but these are precisely Venus's problems now. If you said the Venus of 2000 was a better player than Sharapova 2004 I would have to agree, but Venus today is not.


Maybe Venus is in denial or maybe its pride why she doesn't want to seek outside help but I hate to see talent like this wasted.
I was watching Roger Federra on Charlie Rose a month ago after he won the US open. Charlie asked what usually causes unforced errors and Federra responsed that it usually due to poor foot work. Venus has always played her games resulting in alot of unfoeced errors but because of her power and athleticism she could overpower the other player. Not anymore. The bottom line is Venus will sadly continue to struggle against the top players if she doesn't get help. The thing is she doesn't even have to make drastic changes in her game all she needs to do is get that forehand and serve together and come to the net more.

I guess you mean Federer.

Roger is right, but I think he is assuming a good shotmaking.

Footwork is hugely important in tennis, and you are absolutely right, Venus never had a great footwork (quite the opposite), but because she was so fast, she could get the ball in time and it didn't really matter, that's not longer the case, she needs to get to the ball in an optimal position.

Problem with the serve, the technique, if you look at Serena's service motion and Venus's you can see the huge difference, Serena's motion is smooth, technically perfect, she puts her weight on the serve but controls where it goes. Venus's puts her weight on it and generates power, but have no control. Again, this has always been Venus's problem and it's very difficult to fix it now, not to say that she can't do it (Justine did change her service motion, but the motivation I think is different).

About coming to the net, there is a misconception there, Venus is believed to be a good volleyer only because BJK said she could be, she does have good reach and she did win a lot of points at the net, but mostly because she would come after a short ball to put it away.

She had a good swinging volley, but the swinging volley is the poor man's volley, it's really not very versatile and can be applied to very few cases.

Point is, to see a good volleyer, look at Roger Federer, you need a good approach shot (which isn't necessarily a powerful shot), you need good anticipation, you need great footwork, because to cover the net you have to walk acroos it (that's most player's problem, they stay in one place and try to strech to reach the ball, if you could see Stephan Edberg or Novotna you would know what I mean), you also need soft hands and a very quick mind, you have to decide in a fraction of a second where the volley goes.

Problem is, developing a good net game takes years, and it's very frustrating because the only way to get the sense is to get passed over and over, and that's very demoralizing. At the current stage I would not recommend Venus to go that way. The forehand is one shot, the serve is one shot, net play is a style, an array of shots, footwork, speed, anticipation, etc., it's a whole new game.

*kaz*
Oct 22nd, 2004, 05:50 PM
Let's see what happens in 2005. I'm not a fan but tennis won't be the same without her.

pigam
Oct 22nd, 2004, 05:57 PM
2 nice, yet painfull posts...
I don't know what to think. There is sooo much speculation possible.

BUT, when I saw Venus play during RG, Wimbledon and Moscow, indeed, her opponents did not look intimidated at all, I think that's the biggest factor maybe :scratch: Venus is low on the selfconfidence, opponents are always desperate for a win against a (former :eek: ) great, so...
Therefore, I'm one of those fans who feel like at this time, Venus should play matches and tournaments (like she is doing now). Not taking the year off, just playing matches, trying to win soem tight matches, or a few small tournaments and slowly rebuilding confidence.
Intrincicly (?) she is one of the most talented and athletic players on tour!! She can do it! Come on Venus! I will definetly cheer you on in Antwerp!!!! go go go!!!!

lizchris
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:02 PM
Did it ever occur to anymore that Venus' mind may not be 100% on tennis? She has had to deal with a serious injury and the muder of her sister. As as fan, I am disappointed with her progress in 2004, but it looks as if she will end the year in the top ten and that is great, considering her record at the Grand Slams this year and she ended the year last year at #11.

Errinella
Oct 22nd, 2004, 06:18 PM
Well I'm not a Venus fan, but I very much admire her. She's certainly had to deal with a lot this year, but injuries and the death of her sister do not explain her relatively poor run of results months afterwards.

There are definitely issues with her technique - her forehand and second serve are prone to breaking down. The rest of the tour has finally caught up with the Williams and it's not going to be easy for them now. They need to take their games up a notch.

I personally think Venus needs to come to the net more - she's fantastic on the volley and extremely intimidating when she comes in. Why doesn't she do it more?

WF4EVER
Oct 22nd, 2004, 07:32 PM
Lizchris, we've all heard the excuses, haven't we? If she has outside distractions which do not allow her to focus on tennis then stay away until she is ready.

Frankly I don't care where Venus is ranked as long as I feel she's done her best, and I don't. Lolo is right, she needs help, so let's all stop using her sister's death and a full moon as excuses for her losses.

Venus is not the same player she was before her injury. Players may have been intimated by her but she gave them something to be intimidated about. She hit that ball with a vengeance and she had the best 1st serve when it counted. Venus is not nearly as aggressive as she used to be. She had no confidence whatsoever in her game. She is not hitting that ball as hard as she used to and she always hits that forehand like her elbow is broken.

She needs to correct her technical flaws. You beat her either by hitting to her weak forehand and forcing the error or waiting for that weak second serve. To me, it seems that because Venus has the ability to hit some beautiful winners off that forehand she's afraid to change it lest she lose that ability, but in truth it is wayyyyy more of a liabilty to her game than an asset.

Do you how how many times we've heard BJK say Venus needs to come to net more? And she only does it at FedCup and the tournament after. Why do you think Venus had so much success on clay this year?

This is what makes it so difficult to understand with Venus. She knows that she wins points easier when she plays at the net but she won't do it? She knows her forehead always breaks down but she's shown no signs of strengthening it. I have to ask myself: Is Venus Williams stupid?

I used to listen to her talk and think that she was so smart, but she's not showing that anymore. I mean it's just common sense! So why won't she do the things she knows need to be done?

I mean we've all debated Venus Williams on the board and the poor state of her game for years and she hasn't done anything to change the things she can, so why do we waste our time here? Why bother expressing concern about her if she doesn't care enough about her own game to try to improve it?

I don't bet on tennis so I have no other reason for being here than to see the best for Venus but she's proving not to be worth the trouble. If I saw that she was trying to help herself I could support her forever, but she's demonstrated that she's ignorant and hard-headed and the drama of her matches aren't worth it anymore.

skanky~skanketta
Oct 22nd, 2004, 10:47 PM
from what i've seen(ony 4-5 matches this year) she can belt the ball as hard anymore. and gets very defensive. previously, when put on the defensive, she flick impossible winners. and she's also getting overpowered. she used to be able to hit the ball harder, but when i saw that match against sprem, i was shocked at how badly she was handling sprem's power.

as for the forehand thing, vera said it last year at the french "i just kept hitting to the forehand"...a sign of bad things to come.:mad:

the serve, well, she can still hit those aces, but i just can understand why she's hit so softly on the 2nd serve. in 00-01, she'd hit some HARD 2nd serves. yes she did get double faults, but she still does with a weak 2nd serve. might as well go for it dont u think? and her backhand hasn't been up to par all year!

she needs some retooling....she'll be fine. and she needs to be able to handle the power. she can handle serena's power, she can handle anyone's power. i mean, she lost to 2 non-power hitters all season. one was at the AO (lisa played the match of her life) and myskina (clay).

Mr_Molik
Oct 22nd, 2004, 10:53 PM
Did it ever occur to anymore that Venus' mind may not be 100% on tennis? She has had to deal with a serious injury and the muder of her sister. As as fan, I am disappointed with her progress in 2004, but it looks as if she will end the year in the top ten and that is great, considering her record at the Grand Slams this year and she ended the year last year at #11.
excuses, excuses.....
if someones mind is 100% on tennis all the time i think they belong in a mental institution :o

i agree with lolo7's post totally, except i dont understand how venus can be considered a far superior player to sharapova?

lolo7
Oct 22nd, 2004, 11:42 PM
What I meant is if Venus can fix those flaws she is a superior player to Sharapova and the rest of the tour.

Fingon
Oct 23rd, 2004, 03:26 AM
Did it ever occur to anymore that Venus' mind may not be 100% on tennis? She has had to deal with a serious injury and the muder of her sister. As as fan, I am disappointed with her progress in 2004, but it looks as if she will end the year in the top ten and that is great, considering her record at the Grand Slams this year and she ended the year last year at #11.
that is true but unless you know Venus very well, you don't know how the death of her sister affected her game.

I am sure it affected her and Serena deeply, but not all people react the same way, remember Monica Seles, when her father died she took refuge in tennis, and played better, not that she didn't care, we all know how much Monica loved her father but different people deal with different situations in different ways

Volcana
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:12 AM
Venus will do whatever she does and I'll root for her forever. I lost my heart to her long ago. Whatever she decides to do tennis-wise will always bre fine with me. She's still the person I'd love to have daughter grow up into.

barmaid
Oct 23rd, 2004, 06:55 AM
Volcana, Your subject heading is very appro at this juncture of Venus's game...it has been apparent all year....I give her credit for "being out there" taking her lumps:sad: and the journey has been painful to her "fans" as well.:eek: Lets face it, her company who have been involved with planning the Olympic village and her other "designing" ambitions have taken up more time from the court than she realized....at 24 the game is passing her by with the introduction of so many talented youngsters..rembember Agassi who devoted himself to climbing mountains to get back into shape after falling out of the ATP hundred mark...its all about dedication and work....Venus will be fine and happy when she decides to leave her tennis career for future fulfillment!:worship:

barmaid:wavey:

Athena
Oct 23rd, 2004, 07:40 AM
Let me just say I love and adore Venus and I've been pulling for her all year during the ups and downs but there are no excuses anymore. I keep hearing fans say that she needs to play like her old self but in my opioion she is playing like her old but thats not good enough anymore to defeat these players on the tour who are far more better than the tour win Venus was winning titles.This is the problem the tour has improved and Venus hasn't. I know she's been injured but she still needs to get professional help from a coach. Of course Venus is a far more superior player than Sharapova but the difference is Sharapovas is more techiniqnically sound because she is professionally trained.Maybe Venus is in denial or maybe its pride why she doesn't want to seek outside help but I hate to see talent like this wasted. I was watching Roger Federra on Charlie Rose a month ago after he won the US open. Charlie asked what usually causes unforced errors and Federra responsed that it usually due to poor foot work. Venus has always played her games resulting in alot of unfoeced errors but because of her power and athleticism she could overpower the other player. Not anymore. The bottom line is Venus will sadly continue to struggle against the top players if she doesn't get help. The thing is she doesn't even have to make drastic changes in her game all she needs to do is get that forehand and serve together and :sad: :sad: come to the net more.


Venus Williams could have won OVER 10 Grand Slams by now if she never had a tennis sister who is as equally talented but I guess more driven than her. Eventhough she loves Serena with all heart, deep down on the tennis courts, Venus is first and foremost a competitior. She hates to LOSE.
In my own opinion, those GS Finals she lost to younger sister Serena really affected her self confidence on the tennis courts,
But I still believe she can still make a comeback.
:devil:

Lemonskin.
Oct 23rd, 2004, 09:42 AM
The writing's on the wall
Damn graffiti punks :(. Better get a scrubbing brush.

bee
Oct 23rd, 2004, 12:34 PM
I think its nice for the williams sister to have different interests outside tennis.
But I think it has taken its toll on their tennis.
One should be 100% focus on tennis to stay on top.

Everybody nowadays...seems to be more powerful and faster.
I guessed they are just suffering the same fate of Tiger woods.