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View Full Version : Nicole has better record at 15 than Hingis, Seles, Graf or Austin had


spiceboy
Oct 17th, 2004, 04:39 PM
Only Capriati in the whole history of the WTA Tour has won her second WTA tournament at a younger age at the age of 15 years and 4 months. Nic just won Tashkent at 15 years and 5 months :eek: :worship: :worship:


The young Czech has a better record than young tennis prodigies like Seles, Graf, Hingis or Austin...of course Nicole has won smaller tournaments but then she hasn't played even the half amount of tournaments that these girls played without the age restriction ;)

GermanBoy
Oct 17th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Jen :cool: :cool: :cool: The best there ever will be! :p

jonny84
Oct 17th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Nicole will definitley reach the Top20 some stage in the next couple of years. She has done really well on the Tour in only her first few professional tournaments (wins over Golovin, Asagoe and Granville) - and when she plays full time I expect her to have rivalries with Golovin, Ivanovic and Sharapova.

Kart
Oct 17th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Yes but will she have a better record than the likes of Seles and Hingis at age 16 ?

Impressive record nonetheless - she looks like she's destined for greatness.

mboyle
Oct 17th, 2004, 06:39 PM
if she wins the Australian Open, she will be the youngest ever slam winner, no?

Zhao
Oct 17th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Jen :cool: :cool: :cool: The best there ever will be! :p
:hehehe: :kiss:

Kutuzova
Oct 17th, 2004, 07:58 PM
You cant compare Nicole to the others, the tour was so much easier back then. The pace today is in a totally different league and for Nicole to be doing this well is amazing!

yukon145
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Jenn is the best!!

elevenis
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:19 PM
Yeah the tour when Monica came onto the scene was "very easy" You just had Graf , Navratilova , Sabatini , Jennifer and other such no-name players :haha:

Jarrett
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:21 PM
:retard:

thelittlestelf
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:27 PM
LOL Monica was kicking ass when Hingis won all those slams. The tour was never so much easier when Monica was around :).

hingis-seles
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Monica beat Chris Evert to win her first WTA Tour title at age 15.

Martina Hingis won her first title in Filderstadt (a Tier II) beating Top-10 player Anke Huber in the final and her second title beating Monica Seles 6-2, 6-0 in the Oakland final.

Lemonskin.
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Good stuff Nicole :bowdown:

MLF
Oct 17th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Whilst Nicole has done very well, she hasn't outperformed those you've mentioned due to the fact they were practically playing the top events immediately. Monica was Houston champion ( equivalent to a tier 2 ) at 15 beating an all time great in Chris Evert, a little superior to Granville or Razzano who Nicole beat in her tier 5 finals I'd sayand was a French Open semi finalist at 15 losing a tough 3 setter to Graf.

Tracy Austin won the Tokyo tournament at 15 which is a pretty big event.

hablo
Oct 17th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Yes but will she have a better record than the likes of Seles and Hingis at age 16 ?

Impressive record nonetheless - she looks like she's destined for greatness.

Exactly. :lol:

hablo
Oct 17th, 2004, 09:14 PM
You cant compare Nicole to the others, the tour was so much easier back then. The pace today is in a totally different league and for Nicole to be doing this well is amazing!

:haha: :haha: :haha:

lele9003
Oct 17th, 2004, 09:51 PM
i think nicole can become a great player, i think in the top ten, she has only 15 years, but a good physiq, if grow, she s can be protagonist

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

miranda_lou
Oct 18th, 2004, 12:26 AM
Poor Nicole!! She's won a couple of very low tier events and already she's being compared to the all-time greats.:sad: :rolleyes: That's totally ridiculous. This child is only 15 years old. Let's wait and see exactly how "great" she becomes in the next three years before we make her "better than" Seles or Graf.:fiery: The tournaments she has won are the equivalent to the mens' Challenger tournaments and I don't recall Graf or Seles ever playing those type of tournaments.

MAURO
Oct 18th, 2004, 12:36 AM
Sabatini won Tokio 85 at the age of 15
in the same year she made SF in Roland Garros and F in Hilton Head beating three top ten and losing Evert in three sets.
more than Nicole at the same age

but good luck Nicole in your future

BK4ever
Oct 18th, 2004, 01:02 AM
I never agree with comparison's because the situations are rarely ever identical.

Nicole is under the AER and played Tier V'and Tier IV's because thats what her rank gets her into, so in terms of players coming up under the AER system...Nicole is indeed having an outstanding debut.

tenn_ace
Oct 18th, 2004, 03:25 AM
True... but remember Lucic?

firefly_ac
Oct 18th, 2004, 03:28 AM
Hmm. . .I dont c her winning a slam in the nedt couple of years.. hee.. . but wow.. is'nt she a lucky 15 yr old. . .

Mon's boy
Oct 18th, 2004, 09:36 AM
im really impressed with nicole lately!
i cant wait to see her at the AO, saw her last yr in the juniors and liked what i saw

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 09:40 AM
Only Capriati in the whole history of the WTA Tour has won her second WTA tournament at a younger age at the age of 15 years and 4 months. Nic just won Tashkent at 15 years and 5 months :eek: :worship: :worship:


The young Czech has a better record than young tennis prodigies like Seles, Graf, Hingis or Austin...of course Nicole has won smaller tournaments but then she hasn't played even the half amount of tournaments that these girls played without the age restriction ;)

Seles was the best teen phenom ever. Only Maureen Connolly came close. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Only Capriati in the whole history of the WTA Tour has won her second WTA tournament at a younger age at the age of 15 years and 4 months. Nic just won Tashkent at 15 years and 5 months :eek: :worship: :worship:


The young Czech has a better record than young tennis prodigies like Seles, Graf, Hingis or Austin...of course Nicole has won smaller tournaments but then she hasn't played even the half amount of tournaments that these girls played without the age restriction ;)

Only Hingis, Austin and Seles because Graf never won a single tournament in her first three years on the tour. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

relax
Oct 18th, 2004, 10:15 AM
the tour was much easier back then...the depth is much bigger now....but still vaidisova's wins aren't impressive because of the players she beat, but more because she showed that she can win tournaments, which always is a good skill

Grice
Oct 18th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Nicole won more tournaments than Capriati this year! that's quite an achievement.

*Karen*
Oct 18th, 2004, 12:21 PM
Good debut year. But you can't really compare her to those players yet. Even if they didn't have many titles at 15. They got a shitload of titles now. I hope Nicole does end up with several slams.

starr
Oct 18th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Yes, but... Players like Hingis and Seles didn't really play Tier III and lower (from what I remember), so it's not really fair to compare their records in term of tournement wins.

Hingis played Zurich (a Tier I)... Then mostly Tier II and higher.
In 1988, Seles played three tournaments. One was New Orleans.... a Tier three

In 1989 Seles's first win was in Houston...... a Tier III. That year (the same year she lost to Graf three sets in the semi's at RG, she played 10 tournaments. Houston, Dallas, Filderstadt, Brighton, and the European Indoor Championships were all Tier IIIs. She played the four slams, the VS championships and one Tier II tournament, Washington.

bandabou
Oct 18th, 2004, 01:26 PM
Well all those players turned out to be all-time great, so I´d say Nicole does have her work cut-out for her if she wants to stay ahead of them.

Chunchun
Oct 18th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Goooo Nicky!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :kiss:

kabuki
Oct 18th, 2004, 01:59 PM
Whoa. Slow down. I think Nicole is great, and I'm a supportive fan, but just calm down.

There is no way to predict what kind of career Nicole will have, and why create a whirlwind of hype and pressure that ultimately hurts only her. (See Maria S.)

For every Martina Hingis there are ten Mirjana Lucics. For every Monica Seles there are a hundred Monique Vieles, or whoevers.

Personally, I just want to watch her grow as a player and hopefully enjoy a long and healthy career. Good luck Nicole.

tommyk75
Oct 18th, 2004, 03:02 PM
I also wonder where Starr got his (or her) information. All those tournaments were Tier II, including New Orleans (it offered $250,000 in prize money). My WTA Media Guide has the information in black and white.

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 18th, 2004, 04:52 PM
In 1988, Seles played three tournaments. One was New Orleans.... a Tier three

In 1989 Seles's first win was in Houston...... a Tier III. That year (the same year she lost to Graf three sets in the semi's at RG, she played 10 tournaments. Houston, Dallas, Filderstadt, Brighton, and the European Indoor Championships were all Tier IIIs. She played the four slams, the VS championships and one Tier II tournament, Washington.

Since turning pro at 15, Seles has won 13 of the 35 tournaments she has entered. By comparison, in their first three full years as pros, Tracy Austin won 10 titles, Andrea Jaeger nine, Navratilova six, and Graf zero. Seles' record as a 15 yr old is the best in the Open Era. :angel: :D :wavey:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 18th, 2004, 05:14 PM
I also wonder where Starr got his (or her) information. All those tournaments were Tier II, including New Orleans (it offered $250,000 in prize money). My WTA Media Guide has the information in black and white.

Starr's stats was hilarious I agree. :angel: :D :wavey:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Seles was the best teen phenom ever. Only Maureen Connolly came close. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:


No, Connolly never won Wimbledon and was beaten like a drum in her only final there .....

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:10 PM
Only Hingis, Austin and Seles because Graf never won a single tournament in her first three years on the tour. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:


Well, Graf won 107 tournaments in her last 13 years on the tour.

Way to go, Monica ......

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Well all those players turned out to be all-time great, so I´d say Nicole does have her work cut-out for her if she wants to stay ahead of them.


Hingis an "all-time great"?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Oh boy ...........

raquel
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Come on Calimero, when you think of all the women who have played tennis on the tour, to win 5 Slams, doubles Slams and be number 1 for over a 100 weeks then she is an all time great. She will be regarded as one of the best for years to come. Sure, her records are behind Steffi's but we can't measure everyone to Steffi's yardstick - you have to look at the tour as a whole.

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:21 PM
No, Connolly never won Wimbledon and was beaten like a drum in her only final there .....

Did Connolly ever win a Grand Slam because the best player in the game got stabbed by one of her psycho fans? :devil: Graf did :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Come on Calimero, when you think of all the women who have played tennis on the tour, to win 5 Slams, doubles Slams and be number 1 for over a 100 weeks then she is an all time great. She will be regarded as one of the best for all of time :p Sure her records are behind Steffi's but we can't measure everyone to Steffi's yardstick.

Maybe we can measure it against Parche-Graf yardstick. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Well, Graf won 107 tournaments in her last 13 years on the tour.

Way to go, Monica ......

Graf won half those while Parche won the other golden half. :lol: :lol: :lol: Graf greatest? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Come on Calimero, when you think of all the women who have played tennis on the tour, to win 5 Slams, doubles Slams and be number 1 for over a 100 weeks then she is an all time great. She will be regarded as one of the best for years to come. Sure, her records are behind Steffi's but we can't measure everyone to Steffi's yardstick - you have to look at the tour as a whole.


There are at least 20 players in the last 100 years who won more than 5 slams. There is really NOTHING "all-time" with Hingis.

Jenny.C.Fan
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:25 PM
Jen-The greatese ever.

Jenny.C.Fan
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:25 PM
greatest*

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:25 PM
Did Connolly ever win a Grand Slam because the best player in the game got stabbed by one of her psycho fans? :devil: Graf did :lol: :lol: :lol:


Graf never did.

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:26 PM
There are at least 20 players in the last 100 years who won more than 5 slams. There is really NOTHING "all-time" with Hingis.

At least Hingis did not hugely benefit from a psycho fan stabbing the best player in the game. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:

bandabou
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Of course, cali...compared to Graf, Hingis´s achievements don´t measure up...but I mean 5 majors, no.1 for a long time, big titles on all surfaces..maybe not the greatest, but she sure has "some" greatness in her.

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Graf won half those while Parche won the other golden half. :lol: :lol: :lol: Graf greatest? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:


Try at least Navi.
Seles just doesn't work ....

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Graf never did.

She did many times and got the number one ranking too. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Try at least Navi.
Seles just doesn't work ....

More so the Golden Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:28 PM
At least Hingis did not hugely benefit from a psycho fan stabbing the best player in the game. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:


Hell, when did you stab Graf?
:confused:

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:29 PM
Of course, cali...compared to Graf, Hingis´s achievements don´t measure up...but I mean 5 majors, no.1 for a long time, big titles on all surfaces..maybe not the greatest, but she sure has "some" greatness in her.

Hingis came by it honestly and NOT because of a psycho fan stabbing the best player in the game. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:30 PM
Of course, cali...compared to Graf, Hingis´s achievements don´t measure up...but I mean 5 majors, no.1 for a long time, big titles on all surfaces..maybe not the greatest, but she sure has "some" greatness in her.

Of course.
No-one doubts that.
But "all-time great"?
Please .....

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Hell, when did you stab Graf?
:confused:

Funny. Seles, the best player in the game was the one stabbed to benefit another player. Guess who benifitted? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:32 PM
She did many times and got the number one ranking too. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Graf won ONE Grand Slam.
In 1988.

irma
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:33 PM
I think it's a bit too soon to compare her with players who were in finals or winning tier 1's at 15 or reaching semis in slams, but the way she played the second set at least till 4:1 (this is the same girl right? slap me if I am wrong;)) against Justine at the us open shows that she definitely has some potential and is not afraid to use it.

but then it's always hard, I thought the same when Mirjana played Steffi in Strassbourg 97 so many things can happen!

Athena
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Graf won ONE Grand Slam.
In 1988.

But she won more questionable Slams after Seles was stabbed in April 1993. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Funny. Seles, the best player in the game was the one stabbed to benefit another player. Guess who benifitted? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:


Sanchez?

Seles leads her H2H ....

bandabou
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Of course.
No-one doubts that.
But "all-time great"?
Please .....

O.k...so when does you become a great?! 24 majors?

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:39 PM
But she won more questionable Slams after Seles was stabbed in April 1993. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:


Seles won 2 of her 9 slams when Graf was out due to injury.
And another 4 when Graf was in a deep slump (losing 0-6, 2-6 to ASV, losing to Garrison in slams) during the 90/91 Thust/Meißner investigation and trial.

So perhaps 3 slams are legit.

Davenport, Hingis, Venus would have won those 90/91 slams against Graf as well.

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:40 PM
O.k...so when does you become a great?! 24 majors?


Great = 3 slams minimum.
All-time great = 10 slams minimum.

Más o menos ....

DevilishAttitude
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Jen :worship: :worship: ;)

Nicole's going to have a good career but we need to see how she does in the BIG events first before we put her in the likes of Seles and Hingis

Beating the Granville's and Razzano's of the world is good but there not in the same sort of the league has of the top 20 let alone the top 5

When she starts beating players like Dechy and Schiavone type players (15-25 ranked) I'll start paying big attention then

:rolleyes: At Kutuzova's the tour was so much weaker then comment - they played the big events straight away Nicole's doing it the way you should nowadays slowly and taking steps instead of leaps into career :)

bandabou
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:49 PM
Great = 3 slams minimum.
All-time great = 10 slams minimum.

Más o menos ....

o.k...

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Come on Calimero, when you think of all the women who have played tennis on the tour, to win 5 Slams, doubles Slams and be number 1 for over a 100 weeks then she is an all time great. She will be regarded as one of the best for years to come. Sure, her records are behind Steffi's but we can't measure everyone to Steffi's yardstick - you have to look at the tour as a whole.


I don't compare her to Steffi, no way.

But we have to defend the likes of King, Seles (yes, Seles!) against an "all-time great" inflation.


BTW, what are "double Slams"?
Graf winning back-to-back AOs, FOs, Wimbledons and USOs in the 80ies AND in the 90ies?
Hingis never did that ......

raquel
Oct 18th, 2004, 08:03 PM
I said 'doubles' not 'double'. Doubles. Two players on one side of the court. Steffi did it in the 80s. Remember? ;)

Calimero377
Oct 18th, 2004, 08:58 PM
I said 'doubles' not 'double'. Doubles. Two players on one side of the court. Steffi did it in the 80s. Remember? ;)

Beach volley-ball?
:confused:

Steffi?
With those tight bikinis?
:drool:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:14 AM
Graf won half those while Parche won the other golden half. :lol: :lol: :lol: Graf greatest? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
oh,seles is greatest tennis player,she can milk a 1-cm wound 11.5 years and she can public a bitter book to allure those seles_Parche fans like you.

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Did Connolly ever win a Grand Slam because the best player in the game got stabbed by one of her psycho fans? :devil: Graf did :lol: :lol: :lol:
the best player can be thrashed like drum in the wim final and can be presented 6-0,6-0 in a match
the best player have a 2+ years non-compititive tennis and 1+ years CO no.1 for 1-cm wound and 11.5 years milking the 1-cm wound.

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:26 AM
Maybe we can measure it against Parche-Graf yardstick. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:
should be seles_Parche yardstick

Martian Jeza
Oct 19th, 2004, 02:01 AM
Jenn is the best!!

Martina Hingis is the best :worship: ;)

Martian Jeza
Oct 19th, 2004, 02:06 AM
There are at least 20 players in the last 100 years who won more than 5 slams. There is really NOTHING "all-time" with Hingis.

It says enough about your tennis knowledge. Without her feet injuries which forced her to retire too early, she could win more than only 5 slams, no doubt about it.

xin_hui
Oct 19th, 2004, 03:29 AM
There are at least 20 players in the last 100 years who won more than 5 slams. There is really NOTHING "all-time" with Hingis.
firstly, you cannot compare everybody to steffi graf. they will all pale in comparison.
but remember that hingis started out at a very young age, and won 5 singles GS, and many more doubles GS. she was consistent, and held the world number 1 ranking in BOTH singles and doubles. she retired at the young age of 22. if she hadnt, who would know what else she would have achieved?

tommyk75
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Wait a second, didn't Maureen Connolly win the Grand Slam? How could she have done that without winning Wimbledon? Ugh, I have to dig out my Media Guide again, I think, ha ha ha.

Rub
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:39 AM
well... hingis still holds the record for the youngest player to win a GS! :dance:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:44 AM
Funny. Seles, the best player in the game was the one stabbed to benefit another player. Guess who benifitted? :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Steffi went from a 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven .....it was a total reversal of fortune for Steffi Graf, and everybody knows it. :angel: :D :wavey:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:47 AM
Great = 3 slams minimum.
All-time great = 10 slams minimum.

Más o menos ....

.....Graf's career, and her "lifetime career stats" that you keep on harping on, were tremendously aided by the stabbing of Monica Seles :angel: :D :wavey:

azza
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:48 AM
Only Capriati in the whole history of the WTA Tour has won her second WTA tournament at a younger age at the age of 15 years and 4 months. Nic just won Tashkent at 15 years and 5 months :eek: :worship: :worship:


The young Czech has a better record than young tennis prodigies like Seles, Graf, Hingis or Austin...of course Nicole has won smaller tournaments but then she hasn't played even the half amount of tournaments that these girls played without the age restriction ;)

:yawn: :zzz:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:51 AM
I don't compare her to Steffi, no way.

BTW, what are "double Slams"?
Graf winning back-to-back AOs, FOs, Wimbledons and USOs in the 80ies AND in the 90ies?
Hingis never did that ......

EXCEPT Steffi had to rely on a jealous German fan to stab #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife to be able to win any major events after 1990 other than Wimbledon. :angel: :D :wavey:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:55 AM
But she won more questionable Slams after Seles was stabbed in April 1993. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

You got that right. The INTENT of Gunther Parche was to debilitate Seles .. it was the INTENT of Gunther Parche that the #2 player of that time (Steffi Graf) benefit from Seles being stabbed. :angel:

LADIEZ CHAMPION
Oct 19th, 2004, 05:59 AM
oh,seles is greatest tennis player,she can milk a 1-cm wound 11.5 years and she can public a bitter book to allure those seles_Parche fans like you.

How many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 3 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf ....... :angel:

Gowza
Oct 19th, 2004, 06:11 AM
with the AER in place nicole is doing very well, she is doing really well at the tournaments her ranking allows her to get into. but yeah she isnt playing the high tier tournaments like the others were at the time. but her results are telling us she is a player to look out for.

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 06:48 AM
Try at least Navi.
Seles just doesn't work ....

Actually, if you go back and look at the history books, you will see that Seles started whipping Graf @ss one the regular. :lol: :lol: That is why she was stabbed. Graf would only have about 2/3 of the slams that she has now if Seles would have remained healthy. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 08:52 AM
Actually, if you go back and look at the history books, you will see that Seles started whipping Graf @ss one the regular. :lol: :lol: That is why she was stabbed. Graf would only have about 2/3 of the slams that she has now if Seles would have remained healthy. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:
if you look at the history books ,you will find seles h2h records against graf is 1-3 in 1991-1992,including thrashed 6-1,6-2 in 1992 wim final
that why seles prefered milked that 1-cm wound year after year to playing competitive tennis.
the fact (not would have) is seles only have to milk that 1-cm stabbing not to show her tennis records for many years.

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:00 AM
How many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 3 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf ....... :angel:
why don't you show their h2h records in October 1990 through April 1993

you can refer to hingis' case since 1999 AO to understand why seles choose to milk that 1-cm stabbing.

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:03 AM
if you look at the history books ,you will find seles h2h records against graf is 1-3 in 1991-1992,including thrashed 6-1,6-2 in 1992 wim final
that why seles prefered milked that 1-cm wound year after year to playing competitive tennis.
the fact (not would have) is seles only have to milk that 1-cm stabbing not to show her tennis records for many years.

Mr. Calimero is playing Nari :lol: :lol:

The only milking I know is when Graf pretends to have so much accomplishments when in reality half of the "questionable" grand slams and years at number one was courtesy of Gunther Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The history books says Monica was 3-1 in GS finals against Graf and was 8-2 advantage in GS wins against Graf before the stabbing. :worship: Seles forced Graf to slumped. :lol:
Monica was ranked number one while Graf was a poor number two at the height of their rivalry. That tells the whole story. game over. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:15 AM
Mr. Calimero is playing Nari :lol: :lol:

The only milking I know is when Graf pretends to have so much accomplishments when in reality half of the "questionable" grand slams and years at number one was courtesy of Gunther Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Monica was 3-1 in GS finals against Graf and was 8-2 advantage in GS wins before the stabbing.
Monica was ranked number one while Graf was a poor number two. game over. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:
firstly,I never think number two would be poor,that also is so pround achievement.
poor seles,she can't gain any one of this "questionable" grand slams forever.
what she can do just is to milk the 1-cm stabbing.

in addtion,seles has 8-11 disadvantage not 8-2 in GS wins before that 1-cm stabbing. she h2h record against steffi graf is 1-3 in 1991-1992,if use your seles_parche fan's logic,seles' #1 is "questionable"

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:19 AM
It says enough about your tennis knowledge. Without her feet injuries which forced her to retire too early, she could win more than only 5 slams, no doubt about it.


Coulda-woulda.
You should change your name to Seleshingis ....


:lol:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:21 AM
firstly,I never think number two would be poor,that also is so pround achievement.
poor seles,she can't gain any one of this "questionable" grand slams forever.
what she can do just is to milk the 1-cm stabbing.

in addtion,seles has 8-11 disadvantage not 8-2 in GS wins before that 1-cm stabbing. she h2h record against steffi graf is 1-3 in 1991-1992,if use your seles_parche fan's logic,seles' #1 is "questionable"

8-11 ? :lol: :lol: :lol Unless Steffi was playing in the dwarfs tour :lol:
From 1991-early 1993 Out of the the 9 Grand Slams played Monica Seles won 7 while Graf won a poor 2 slams. :lol: :lol: :lol: Graf cant even provide a decent rivalry.
They played 4 times at GS finals before the stabbing, Monica Seles won 3 of them while Graf won only ONCE. :lol: :lol: :lol: From 1991 to early 1993, Monica Seles was ranked NUMBER ONE while Graf was PROUD to be number two.
You are giving Graf too much credit instead of Golden Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Coulda-woulda.
You should change your name to Seleshingis ....


:lol:

Graf-Parche is better :lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:25 AM
Steffi went from a 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven .....it was a total reversal of fortune for Steffi Graf, and everybody knows it. :angel: :D :wavey:


Steffi only made 3 slam finals in 91/92.
In 93/96 she made 12 slam finals in 14 slams she played.

You don't want to tell me that this has anything to do with The Stabbing?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Steffi only made 3 slam finals in 91/92.
In 93/96 she made 12 slam finals in 14 slams she played.

You don't want to tell me that this has anything to do with The Stabbing?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ladiez was right. :lol: 10 of those 22 Slams are highly questionable and obviously courtesy of Mr. Parche after the best player in the game Seles, was stabbed to benefit the slumping second ranked player. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:32 AM
.....Graf's career, and her "lifetime career stats" that you keep on harping on, were tremendously aided by the stabbing of Monica Seles :angel: :D :wavey:


Seles's career, and her "lifetime career stats" that you keep harping on, were tremendously aided by the 1990 blackmail/media scandal surrounding Steffi Graf :angel: :p :D :wavey:

To suggest that a FO 88 Graf would have lost FO 90 is ridiculous.
To suggest that a 88 or 89 USO Graf would not have reached the 91 & 92 USO finals is ludicrous. And we all know what Graf usually did with Seles on hard courts, especially at USO - wipe the floor with Seles.
:worship:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:37 AM
EXCEPT Steffi had to rely on a jealous German fan to stab #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife to be able to win any major events after 1990 other than Wimbledon. :angel: :D :wavey:


Yes, well all remember how "post-traumatic stress syndrome" hit Seles on the day of the 96 USO final. Just after she had made her best-ever first-six-rounds run (losing only 18 games combined).

And - wooosh - how she was hit again in November 1998 playing Graf at the Chase Championships. Suddenly in the second set ...

And what happened at FO next year in the semis?
Again - in the second set .....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:38 AM
Seles's career, and her "lifetime career stats" that you keep harping on, were tremendously aided by the 1990 blackmail/media scandal surrounding Steffi Graf :angel: :p :D :wavey:

To suggest that a FO 88 Graf would have lost FO 90 is ridiculous.
To suggest that a 88 or 89 USO Graf would not have reached the 91 & 92 USO finals is ludicrous. And we all know what Graf usually did with Seles on hard courts, especially at USO - wipe the floor with Seles.
:worship:

Seles was clearly the better player and the #1 of women's tennis for 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place. :devil: The mere existence of Monica Seles and her record from those years 1990-1993 can very well speak for itself. Of course, thats the reason why Gunther Parche got jealous and stabbed Seles to benefit the slumping second ranked german player. :devil: :devil: :devil: :lol: :lol: :lol:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:40 AM
8-11 ? :lol: :lol: :lol Unless Steffi was playing in the dwarfs tour :lol:
From 1991-early 1993 Out of the the 9 Grand Slams played Monica Seles won 7 while Graf won a poor 2 slams. :lol: :lol: :lol: Graf cant even provide a decent rivalry.
They played 4 times at GS finals before the stabbing, Monica Seles won 3 of them while Graf won only ONCE. :lol: :lol: :lol: From 1991 to early 1993, Monica Seles was ranked NUMBER ONE while Graf was PROUD to be number two.
You are giving Graf too much credit instead of Golden Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:
yeah,they play 6 times at GS before that 1-cm stabbing,3-3. 6-1,6-2 thrash certainly isn't a decent rivalry to seles
another,h2h is 1-3 in 1991-1992,just the period you seles-parche fans are so proud to refer.

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:41 AM
Seles's career, and her "lifetime career stats" that you keep harping on, were tremendously aided by the 1990 blackmail/media scandal surrounding Steffi Graf :angel: :p :D :wavey:

To suggest that a FO 88 Graf would have lost FO 90 is ridiculous.
To suggest that a 88 or 89 USO Graf would not have reached the 91 & 92 USO finals is ludicrous. And we all know what Graf usually did with Seles on hard courts, especially at USO - wipe the floor with Seles.
:worship:

What's more ridiculous and funny is your claim that Graf could have won 11 more questionable slams and get back at number one if the best player in the game at that time, Monica Seles was not stabbed by a psycho fan of hers. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:44 AM
How many Slams did Graf win in each of the years 1990, 1991 and 1992 when Seles was winning 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis during that span of October 1990 through April 1993?

Graf during the 30 months October 1990 through April 1993 won only Wimbledon -- 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both of those years 1991 and 1992. It just so happens that Monica Seles won the other 4 both years, and then Seles won the first major event of 1993, too ... didn't she?

Then the stabbing took place in April 1993.

Guess who won the next 3 major events in 1993 after Seles had won the 1993 Australian Open before being stabbed by a Graf fan? (if you guessed Steffi Graf ....... :angel:


Wimbledon she would have won anyway. Or do you want to suggest that Seles could have stopped her? :lol: :lol: :lol:

USO she would have won anyway. Seles never was able to beat Graf on hardcourts, especially at USO. And when Seles played her best USO ever (1996) she was trounced by Steffi in the finals.

FO is a close call. Graf and Seles are 2-2 H2H there.
But Graf won 6 FOs and Seles only 3 during their careers. Even a 30-year-old Graf with reconstructed knee could beat a 25-year-old (peak prime age) Seles in 99. And when Seles was #1 Graf and her were 1-1 H2H on clay.
So I'll give the edge to Graf.

:wavey:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:44 AM
Ladiez was right. :lol: 10 of those 22 Slams are highly questionable and obviously courtesy of Mr. Parche after the best player in the game Seles, was stabbed to benefit the slumping second ranked player. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:
should be courtesy of miss seles,who choose to milk that 1-cm stabbing.
today,those seles-parche fans are enjoying that.

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:47 AM
Actually, if you go back and look at the history books, you will see that Seles started whipping Graf @ss one the regular. :lol: :lol: That is why she was stabbed. Graf would only have about 2/3 of the slams that she has now if Seles would have remained healthy. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:


What of

"Graf was 3-2 H2H against Seels even when Seles was #1"

or

"Graf was 5-2 H2H against Seles when she and Seles were fighting for #1 and #2"

you didn't grasp?


:p

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:48 AM
yeah,they play 6 times at GS before that 1-cm stabbing,3-3. 6-1,6-2 thrash certainly isn't a decent rivalry to seles
another,h2h is 1-3 in 1991-1992,just the period you seles-parche fans are so proud to refer.

They played 6 times but Seles was already 4-3 advantage when she kicked Graf's butt from the number one ranking. :lol: :lol: :lol: If Graf was so good then why was she ranked a mere number two to Seles. And why did she only win 2 slams compared to Seles' 8 slams at the height of their rivalry? :lol: :lol: :lol:
As I said, you are giving too much credit to a player who is the only tennis player in history to be ranked number one by default and won highly questionable slams. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:48 AM
What's more ridiculous and funny is your claim that Graf could have won 11 more questionable slams and get back at number one if the best player in the game at that time, Monica Seles was not stabbed by a psycho fan of hers. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil:
you certainly know that,because what you seles_parche fans can hold only is that 1-cm stabbing for many years.

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:49 AM
What of

"Graf was 3-2 H2H against Seels even when Seles was #1"

or

"Graf was 5-2 H2H against Seles when she and Seles were fighting for #1 and #2"

you didn't grasp?


:p

Seles was #1 while Graf was #2 before Golden Parche came into the picture..you didnt grasp :lol: :lol: :lol:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:55 AM
you certainly know that,because what you seles_parche fans can hold only is that 1-cm stabbing for many years.

All in favor say I and those of you who want the Number one ranking at any cost shamelessly say nay we will start the vote.

Steffi-nay :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gabriela-I :worship:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:57 AM
They played 6 times but Seles was already 4-3 advantage when she kicked Graf's butt from the number one ranking. :lol: :lol: :lol: If Graf was so good then why was she ranked a mere number two to Seles. And why did she only win 2 slams compared to Seles' 8 slams at the height of their rivalry? :lol: :lol: :lol:
As I said, you are giving too much credit to a player who is the only tennis player in history to be ranked number one by default and won highly questionable slams. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:
anyway,we have "highly questionable slams" and highly appreciate these slams, not like you,what you can do just to sell the stabing everywhere without refering the size of the stabbing.
miss seles and her seles-parche fans only have that 1_cm stabbing and have to appreciate the 1-cm stabbing.
another,that is 3-2 disadvantage ,not 4-3 advantage when seles take no.1 in steffi graf slump in 1991-1993,before that 1-cm stabbing .

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 10:01 AM
Seles was #1 while Graf was #2 before Golden Parche came into the picture..you didnt grasp :lol: :lol: :lol:


Seles was #1 and Graf was #2 before the first WTC bombing happened.

OK, one could have thought in 93/94 that Graf winning FO, USO & AO (Wimbledon? No .... :lol: ) had to do something with The Stabbing.
But now we know that Seles only won 1 slam (when Graf was out due to injury) as a twen. Obviously the talent simply was not there. A flash in the pan. In the Hingis, Venus mould - 2 good years and then only crap ......

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 10:20 AM
anyway,we have "highly questionable slams" and highly appreciate these slams, not like you,what you can do just to sell the stabing everywhere without refering the size of the stabbing.
miss seles and her seles-parche fans only have that 1_cm stabbing and have to appreciate the 1-cm stabbing.
another,that is 3-2 disadvantage ,not 4-3 advantage when seles take no.1 in steffi graf slump in 1991-1993,before that 1-cm stabbing .

Graf won her first three matches against Monica (when monica was 15 and sixteen) , and the proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT FOUR OF SEVEN.......and the number one ranking. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil: That's when Parche got really jealous. :lol:

Martian Jeza
Oct 19th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Seles was #1 and Graf was #2 before the first WTC bombing happened.

OK, one could have thought in 93/94 that Graf winning FO, USO & AO (Wimbledon? No .... :lol: ) had to do something with The Stabbing.
But now we know that Seles only won 1 slam (when Graf was out due to injury) as a twen. Obviously the talent simply was not there. A flash in the pan. In the Hingis, Venus mould - 2 good years and then only crap ......

I understand why you chose Calimero as nickname : Wise decision !

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 10:23 AM
Seles was #1 and Graf was #2 before the first WTC bombing happened.

OK, one could have thought in 93/94 that Graf winning FO, USO & AO (Wimbledon? No .... :lol: ) had to do something with The Stabbing.
But now we know that Seles only won 1 slam (when Graf was out due to injury) as a twen. Obviously the talent simply was not there. A flash in the pan. In the Hingis, Venus mould - 2 good years and then only crap ......

Maybe Parche should have stabbed himself instead :devil: ... and just put himself out of his miserable jealousy. Funny how second ranked Steffi started winning those non-Wimbledon majors that Seles had owned for those previous years after Seles had been stabbed. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:

She-ra
Oct 19th, 2004, 11:18 AM
Actually, if you go back and look at the history books, you will see that Seles started whipping Graf @ss one the regular. :lol: :lol: That is why she was stabbed. Graf would only have about 2/3 of the slams that she has now if Seles would have remained healthy. :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Not on a regular basis the same way as the Navratilova-Evert rivalry but there was no doubt in anybody's mind that Seles was the better tennis player on the tennis court. :kiss:

Lemonskin.
Oct 19th, 2004, 12:24 PM
What does it matter how her record shapes up against the best players ever?

She's a great little talent and has a bloody good record for a 15 year old.

'Nuff said.

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:04 PM
Graf won her first three matches against Monica (when monica was 15 and sixteen) , and the proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT FOUR OF SEVEN.......and the number one ranking. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil: That's when Parche got really jealous. :lol:


Just imagine - there is only ONE possible time frame that gives Seles a H2H lead against Graf and that only with ONE win ahead - 90-93!!!!

Let's compare:

Navratilova leads Graf 7-3 H2H in 85-87 and again 2-1 in 90-93.
Evert leads Graf 6-0 between 85 and March 86.
Novotna leads Graf 3-2 between October 90 and May 92.
Sabatini leads Graf 7-1 between November 90 and June 92.
Pierce leads Graf 2-1 between October 93 and January 95.
Sanchez leads Graf 3-2 between February 94 and May 95.
Coetzer leads Graf 3-1 between March 96 and July 98.
Davenport leads Graf 5-3 in 97-99.


Seles once ONCE had a "2-win streak" against Graf - in spring 90 just weeks after the Graf blackmail/media scandal broke out.

Evert had a 6-matches winning streak against Graf in 85/86.
Navi at least a 3-matches streak in 85/86.
Sabatini won 5 (!) consecutive matches against Graf in 90/91.
Durie had a 3-win streak against Graf in 84/85.

2-match winning streaks against Graf are held by Seles AND Navi, Sabby, ASV, Novotna, Davenport, Coetzer, V. Williams, Turnbull, Kohde, Lindquist.


I don't know why you are that obsessed with Seles ....


:confused:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:05 PM
I understand why you chose Calimero as nickname : Wise decision !


I understand why you chose "ChelseaFC" as nickname: Full of drugs ....


:lol:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Maybe Parche should have stabbed himself instead :devil: ... and just put himself out of his miserable jealousy. Funny how second ranked Steffi started winning those non-Wimbledon majors that Seles had owned for those previous years after Seles had been stabbed. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:


Graf made only ONE final of those non-Wimbledon slams in 91/92.
But FIVE in 93/94.
And as her final winning record stands at 78.1 % it's no wonder that Graf won more slams in 93/96.
She won FO 93, USO 93, AO 94 and FO 95 in Seles's absence. Give Seles one of those wins. Two would be too much as Graf's winning percentage against Seles is 66.7 % (that is roughly the Coetzer or Pierce percentage).

BTW, your point being?

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Not on a regular basis the same way as the Navratilova-Evert rivalry but there was no doubt in anybody's mind that Seles was the better tennis player on the tennis court. :kiss:


Of course Seles was the better tennis player on the tennis court in 91/92 - although she lost 3 of 4 matches against Graf and although she didn't win the most important tournament, Wimbledon (the real "World Championships").

But Graf regularily lost to Sabatini in that time, was beaten 3 times by Novotna and lost 2 of 3 matches against an aging Navi. Seles on the other hand owned Sabby, Navi & Novi. And she won the 3 lesser slams in both years.

But almost everybody knew that IF Graf regained her 88/89 vintage form Seles would be chopped liver. OK, Graf regained that form only partialy in 95/99 but Seles nevertheless had to face the music - she lost 4 of 5 matches against Graf in that time.

:worship:

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 03:32 PM
Funny how second ranked Steffi started winning those non-Wimbledon majors that Seles had owned for those previous years after Seles had been stabbed. :lol: :lol: :lol: :devil: :devil: :devil:
because steffi graf play tennis matchs and won those matchs,not to stay at home to write some bitter arcticles.
those non-Wimbledon majors Seles had owned for those previous years are great achievements,but can't assure any majors seles would have after that 1-cm stabbing,those non-Wimbledon majors only offer the possibility of seles' win,just like the possibility hingis hold in 1999.

nari
Oct 19th, 2004, 04:04 PM
Of course Seles was the better tennis player on the tennis court in 91/92 - although she lost 3 of 4 matches against Graf and although she didn't win the most important tournament, Wimbledon (the real "World Championships").

But Graf regularily lost to Sabatini in that time, was beaten 3 times by Novotna and lost 2 of 3 matches against an aging Navi. Seles on the other hand owned Sabby, Navi & Novi. And she won the 3 lesser slams in both years.

But almost everybody knew that IF Graf regained her 88/89 vintage form Seles would be chopped liver. OK, Graf regained that form only partialy in 95/99 but Seles nevertheless had to face the music - she lost 4 of 5 matches against Graf in that time.

:worship:
don't think so,i don't think seles or someone else was a better tennis player even in 1991-1992,i only think she made more scores of rank than steffi graf.just because steffi could't enter into enough major finals in 1991-1992,steffi is the best tennis player whenever,whether she win or lose.
i am a more loyal graf fan than you :lol:

miranda_lou
Oct 19th, 2004, 04:16 PM
This thread about Nicole Vlasidova has deteriorated into the usual Graf v. Seles silliness.:rolleyes: Don't you people ever give up? You all repeat the same stuff over and over. All of you sound so stupid and ignorant. At least find something new to say. Better yet, why don't you all just SHUT UP!!!:tape:

Both Monica and Steffi would be appalled by you so-called fans. :sad: You Steffi fans dismissing Monica's stab wound as "just" a 1 cm; and you Monica fans combining Graf and Parche into one. You're all disgusting.:fiery: You're pathetic. All of you make me sick and every one of you should be banned from this board. You're embarrassing.:o

She-ra
Oct 19th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Just imagine - there is only ONE possible time frame that gives Seles a H2H lead against Graf and that only with ONE win ahead - 90-93!!!!

Let's compare:

Navratilova leads Graf 7-3 H2H in 85-87 and again 2-1 in 90-93.
Evert leads Graf 6-0 between 85 and March 86.
Novotna leads Graf 3-2 between October 90 and May 92.
Sabatini leads Graf 7-1 between November 90 and June 92.
Pierce leads Graf 2-1 between October 93 and January 95.
Sanchez leads Graf 3-2 between February 94 and May 95.
Coetzer leads Graf 3-1 between March 96 and July 98.
Davenport leads Graf 5-3 in 97-99.


Seles once ONCE had a "2-win streak" against Graf - in spring 90 just weeks after the Graf blackmail/media scandal broke out.

Evert had a 6-matches winning streak against Graf in 85/86.
Navi at least a 3-matches streak in 85/86.
Sabatini won 5 (!) consecutive matches against Graf in 90/91.
Durie had a 3-win streak against Graf in 84/85.

2-match winning streaks against Graf are held by Seles AND Navi, Sabby, ASV, Novotna, Davenport, Coetzer, V. Williams, Turnbull, Kohde, Lindquist.


I don't know why you are that obsessed with Seles ....


:confused:


A player who is claimed by some Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife.

The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Seles was the SUPERIOR player against Graf.

Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s.

Steffi was almost 18 years of age before she was able to win back to back matches against Navratilova for the first time. Of course, Navratilova was over 30 years of age by then.

The first time that Graf was able to win MORE than just 2 matches consecutively vs. Navratilova was when Graf was over 19 years of age and when Navratilova was close to the age Andre Agassi is now.

STILL .. Navratilova in her mid to upper 30s had a winning record vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993, including Martina winning the only match between the 2 at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s.


Seles, of course, as a top ranked teen phenom in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf as well before a jealous Steffi Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

************************************************** *******
1989 Brighton International (Brighton) Final 7-5, 6-4 Steffi Graf
1989 Roland Garros (Paris) Semifinal 6-3, 3-6, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1989 Wimbledon (London) 4th round 6-0, 6-1 Steffi Graf
************************************************** *******

***Monica made her professional debut in 1989 at 15 years of age where she lost all of her matches 0-3 against then world number one Steffi Graf who made her professional debut in 1983 and was four (4) years older than Seles.***

***But from 1990-1993( before the stabbing), Monica Seles took over the top ranking has 4-3 advantage against Graf in head to head match-ups and was 3-1 in Grand Slam Finals against Graf who had fallen to a consistent number two.***
************************************************** *******
1990 Lufthansa Cup (Berlin) Final 6-4, 6-3 Monica Seles
1990 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 7-6, 6-4 Monica Seles
1991 Citizen Cup (Hambourg) Final 7-5, 6-7 (4-7), 6-3 Steffi Graf
1991 Women's Hardcourt Champs (San Antonio) Final 6-4, 6-3 Steffi Graf
1992 Roland Garros (Paris) Final 6-2, 3-6, 10-8 Monica Seles
1992 Wimbledon (London) Final 6-2, 6-1 Steffi Graf
1993 Australian Open (Melbourne) Final 4-6, 6-3, 6-2 Monica Seles
************************************************** *******
***Monica Seles also won her very last match against second ranked Graf at the Finals of the 1993 Australian Open***

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that undisputed world number one Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

No way Steffi Graf is the better than Monica and Martina when you consider the REAL truth of Steffi Graf, Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles in the years 1990-1993. Far from it...Not even close.... :wavey:

__________________________________________________ ____________

I just haven't quite figured out how to beat her".......... :tape:

------Steffi Graf.......
after her loss to Monica Seles at the Australian Open Finals, 1993.......


Steffi Graf's Career in a Nutshell.......

Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone. :lol: :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 19th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Graf made only ONE final of those non-Wimbledon slams in 91/92.
But FIVE in 93/94.
And as her final winning record stands at 78.1 % it's no wonder that Graf won more slams in 93/96.
She won FO 93, USO 93, AO 94 and FO 95 in Seles's absence. Give Seles one of those wins. Two would be too much as Graf's winning percentage against Seles is 66.7 % (that is roughly the Coetzer or Pierce percentage).

BTW, your point being?

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 22 and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

How a cheater ever be considered among the best ever? Steffi was one of those mediocre players who became the LUCKIEST LOSER when the best player in the game got violently stabbed. Suddenly the number two became number one. :eek: :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 19th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Just imagine - there is only ONE possible time frame that gives Seles a H2H lead against Graf and that only with ONE win ahead - 90-93!!!!

Let's compare:

Navratilova leads Graf 7-3 H2H in 85-87 and again 2-1 in 90-93.
Evert leads Graf 6-0 between 85 and March 86.
Novotna leads Graf 3-2 between October 90 and May 92.
Sabatini leads Graf 7-1 between November 90 and June 92.
Pierce leads Graf 2-1 between October 93 and January 95.
Sanchez leads Graf 3-2 between February 94 and May 95.
Coetzer leads Graf 3-1 between March 96 and July 98.
Davenport leads Graf 5-3 in 97-99.


Seles once ONCE had a "2-win streak" against Graf - in spring 90 just weeks after the Graf blackmail/media scandal broke out.

Evert had a 6-matches winning streak against Graf in 85/86.
Navi at least a 3-matches streak in 85/86.
Sabatini won 5 (!) consecutive matches against Graf in 90/91.
Durie had a 3-win streak against Graf in 84/85.

2-match winning streaks against Graf are held by Seles AND Navi, Sabby, ASV, Novotna, Davenport, Coetzer, V. Williams, Turnbull, Kohde, Lindquist.


I don't know why you are that obsessed with Seles ....


:confused:


Yeah Yeah, Behind Graf's INFLATED stats lurks the Parche factor.

The stabbing of world#1 Monica Seles made all the difference in the career of #2 Steffi Graf. Graf's STATS grew in Monica's absence.

Monica Seles was already a LEGEND at 16 years of age when she became the 1st player (male or female) in more than a CENTURY to win a Grand Slam and so much more historic record breaking unprecedented accomplishments.

Imagine, Monica's fabled career "in reality" only spanned from 1990-1993 ( 3 years) because of the tragedy in Germany and yet........ she way up there among the GREATEST EVER.... :wavey:

Does that tell you something on how LEGENDARY Monica is... :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 19th, 2004, 07:06 PM
Well, Graf won 107 tournaments in her last 13 years on the tour.

Way to go, Monica ......

Of which half those 107 were HOLLOW and courtesy of Gunther Parche. The BEST COMBINATION in the history of women's tennis has to be Gunther Parche and Steffi Graf. :tape: :kiss:

Martian KC
Oct 19th, 2004, 07:23 PM
New faces. Same story.:o

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Of which half those 107 were HOLLOW and courtesy of Gunther Parche. The BEST COMBINATION in the history of women's tennis has to be Gunther Parche and Steffi Graf. :tape: :kiss:

Right On. This is so funny and true. :haha: :haha: :haha: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Athena
Oct 19th, 2004, 07:32 PM
Just imagine - there is only ONE possible time frame that gives Seles a H2H lead against Graf and that only with ONE win ahead - 90-93!!!!

Let's compare:

Navratilova leads Graf 7-3 H2H in 85-87 and again 2-1 in 90-93.
Evert leads Graf 6-0 between 85 and March 86.
Novotna leads Graf 3-2 between October 90 and May 92.
Sabatini leads Graf 7-1 between November 90 and June 92.
Pierce leads Graf 2-1 between October 93 and January 95.
Sanchez leads Graf 3-2 between February 94 and May 95.
Coetzer leads Graf 3-1 between March 96 and July 98.
Davenport leads Graf 5-3 in 97-99.


Seles once ONCE had a "2-win streak" against Graf - in spring 90 just weeks after the Graf blackmail/media scandal broke out.

Evert had a 6-matches winning streak against Graf in 85/86.
Navi at least a 3-matches streak in 85/86.
Sabatini won 5 (!) consecutive matches against Graf in 90/91.
Durie had a 3-win streak against Graf in 84/85.

2-match winning streaks against Graf are held by Seles AND Navi, Sabby, ASV, Novotna, Davenport, Coetzer, V. Williams, Turnbull, Kohde, Lindquist.


I don't know why you are that obsessed with Seles ....


:confused:



Graf belong to a lower level of so called 'greatness' along with Sanzhez Vicario and Navotna and let me add one more player : Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:52 PM
A player who is claimed by some Graf fanatics to be the best of of ALL time does not have to rely on the #1 ranked player in the world (who is just a tennager and #1 for consecutive years while winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in the sport over a period of more than 2 years) being stabbed in the back with a knife. ...

Graf took the #1 spot away from Seles twice in 91 and twice again in 96.
And would have done the same of course in 93 even without the stabbing.
Need I to remind you that Graf trailed Seles with 58 pts. in the rankings at end of 91, but only with 32 pts. at end of 92 and only with 21 pts. in April 93, just before the stabbing?



....
The Monica Seles incident in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993 -- especially when you take into consideration how dominant the young teenage Seles was in the months November 1990 through April 1993 -- SEALS it that Seles was the SUPERIOR player against Graf. ...


Of course Seles was superior to Graf in 91/92 - although she didn't win the most important tournament of them all (Wimbledon) and Graf won it twice, although Graf leads Seles 3-2 during Seles's #1 tenure. Seles won the lesser slams in those years. Because Graf slumped badly, losing 7 of 8 matches to Sabby ......


....
Graf was in the middle of her career in the early 1990s -- and yet Seles as a teenager was the one ranked #1 and the one winning 9 of those 11 biggest titles between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and this, within itself, eliminates Graf from consideration as the top woman tennis player of all time.

Navratilova in her mid 30s (turned 34 in 1990 .. turned 35 in 1991 .. turned 36 in 1992 .. and turned 37 in 1993) had a winning record vs. Graf in the 1990s prior to the stabbing of Monica Seles in April 1993, including the only match Navratilova and Graf played against each other in a Grand Slam singles match during the 1990s
...

Ah, slowly it sinks in, Ladiez, doesn't it?
Navi had a winning record in 90-93 against Graf. So did Sabby, and so did Novi in 91/92.
Garrison, Capriati scored their only wins against Graf.
What more do you need as a proof for the Graf Slump?

BTW, Navi lost her #1 spot in summer of 80 and didn't regain it until summer of 82. She was 23-25 years old back then - in "the middle of her career". :lol:


Seles didn't win a lot in the middle of her career (95-99). In fact, she lost even 4 of 5 matches against an aging Graf ....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 19th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Yeah Yeah, Behind Graf's INFLATED stats lurks the Parche factor.

The stabbing of world#1 Monica Seles made all the difference in the career of #2 Steffi Graf. Graf's STATS grew in Monica's absence.
...
:

Same as Seles's stats grew when Graf was retired.

Oops .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:







....
Monica Seles was already a LEGEND at 16 years of age when she became the 1st player (male or female) in more than a CENTURY to win a Grand Slam and so much more historic record breaking unprecedented accomplishments.

Imagine, Monica's fabled career "in reality" only spanned from 1990-1993 ( 3 years) because of the tragedy in Germany and yet........ she way up there among the GREATEST EVER.... :wavey:

Does that tell you something on how LEGENDARY Monica is... :kiss:
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Seles blew it in 95-04. Her failure in that long period is proof that she only was a flash in the pan. A blip on the radar screen.

:wavey:

She-ra
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:40 AM
Same as Seles's stats grew when Graf was retired.

Oops .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:







:lol: :lol: :lol:


Seles blew it in 95-04. Her failure in that long period is proof that she only was a flash in the pan. A blip on the radar screen.

:wavey:


There had to be a REASON ... there had to be a MOTIVE ... for Gunther Parche to accomplish something second ranked Graf no longer could.

Seles was CLEARLY the better champion and the #1 of women's tennis for 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.

The mere existence of Monica Seles and her mindboggling record from those years 1990-1993 and then the stabbing --- nothing more is needed --- these alone keep Steffi Graf from among LEGITIMATE All Time Greats. Case closed. :kiss: :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:48 AM
Graf belong to a lower level of so called 'greatness' along with Sanzhez Vicario and Navotna and let me add one more player : Parche. :lol: :lol: :lol:

THE world of sport is a world that is rich in metaphors. A great tragedy is often a goal conceded a few seconds before the final whistle or a dropped catch in the 49th over of a one-day international.

THE world of sport is a world that is rich in metaphors. A great tragedy is often a goal conceded a few seconds before the final whistle or a dropped catch in the 49th over of a one-day international.

A terrible disaster is often nothing more than a missed putt on the 18th green of the Augusta National or a 13-second pit stop in a Formula One race.

In truth, there is nothing tragic about such tragedies and the tragedy itself is a sort of a metaphor. There is nothing terrible, too, about such disasters.

It is in this world that, on the odd occasion, we come face to face with real tragedies, we struggle to deal with events that are at once terrible and shocking. Death, life threatening injuries, stabbing...

Ah, stabbing. Who can ever forget the back stab that practically brought an end to one of the greatest chapters in the history of women's tennis?

Who can forget April 30, 1993, the day Gunther Parche plunged a meat cleaving knife in Monica Seles's back as she sat during a changeover in the Hamburg WTA tournament?

As tragedies go, the world of sport has seen nothing quite like this before, or after. Not only did it change the course of the history of women's tennis but also it opened our eyes to the sort of dangers that nobody might have foreseen.

Yes, worse things have happened in the sporting arena. People have actually lost their lives while performing. Formula One racing has seen more death that any other sport.

In fact, exactly a year after the Seles stabbing, the greatest driver of all time, Aryton Senna, died following a crash on the Imola circuit in Italy.

Boxing too has had its share of tragedies and several so-called "extreme'' sports have cost practitioners their lives. But the big difference is, when you choose to become a Formula One driver or a boxer or an addict of some sort of extreme sport, you do so with the knowledge that you are getting into a dangerous business.

But you don't expect parents of girls stepping out to play a game of tennis to caution their wards with the words: "Hey, watch your back during changeovers!'' Maybe they do, after April 30, 1993.

That dark day changed the course of the history of the women's game. Seles, playing the most authoritative tennis any woman has ever played, had won eight Grand Slam titles while still in her teens, including the Australian and the French three times in a row and the U.S. title twice in two years.

No woman had dominated Steffi Graf as completely as did Seles whose only weak moments came at Wimbledon where Graf's experience and skills prevailed.

In the event, it appeared that Seles had the world at her feet and would go on to rewrite all the records in the women's game.

Then came the madman with the knife, seeking to put an end to Seles's dominance and allow his idol second ranked Graf a second innings as a world beater. And he accomplished just what he wanted and got away with a two year "suspended'' sentence on the grounds of mental imbalance!

The physical wound healed in time. But, for Seles, life had changed once and for all. The mental scars left by that incident never really healed. In an exclusive interview to Tennis magazine's Peter Bodo Seles says she does not want to revisit Hamburg.

Eleven years is a long time and time heals many a wound. But the few years immediately after the stabbing were years of agony for Seles.

There was a time when she considered quitting but finally decided to resume her career.

She came back strongly too, making the U.S. Open final in 1995 and winning her fourth Australian Open in January 1996. But that turned out to be a false dawn. For the great lady never again scaled the heights in her career.

How many Grand Slam titles would Seles have won if Parche had not intervened in her life and career?

She was only 19 when the stabbing happened and even if she had managed to remain at the helm for five or six years after that, until age 25, she would have won at least 20 Grand Slam titles, perhaps a lot more.

On the other hand, there is no doubt at all that Steffi Graf would not have won anywhere near the 22 that she did if the Seles tragedy had not taken place. Not even close.

Eleven years on, the great lady is still around and still in love with her sport, competing hard and offering us great moments of watching pleasure. And this is as good a moment as any to salute the Seles spirit.

Monica Seles, the greatest champion the world of tennis had ever seen. :worship: :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:51 AM
Same as Seles's stats grew when Graf was retired.

Oops .....
:lol: :lol: :lol:







:lol: :lol: :lol:


Seles blew it in 95-04. Her failure in that long period is proof that she only was a flash in the pan. A blip on the radar screen.

:wavey:


Monica .....Seles ..... was .... stabbed ..... in .... the ..... back ..... with ..... a ..... knife ..... by ..... a ..... jealous ..... fan ..... of ..... Steffi ..... Graf ..... in ..... Hamburg ..... Germany ..... at ..... the ..... end ..... of ..... April ..... 1993 ..... when ..... the ..... young ..... Monica ..... Seles ..... was ..... clearly ..... the ..... best ..... player ..... in ..... women's ..... tennis ..... from ..... November 1990 ..... until ..... the ..... stabbing ..... in ..... April 1993 ..... even ..... though ..... Monica ..... was ...... only ..... a ..... teenager ..... and ..... Steffi ..... Graf ..... was ..... in ..... the ..... middle ..... of ..... her ..... career ..... and ..... into ..... her ..... 20s.

During ..... those ..... 30 ..... months ..... for ..... a ..... full ...... 2.5 ...... years ..... Seles ..... as ..... a ..... teenager ..... won ..... 9 ..... of ..... the ..... 11 ..... biggest ..... singles ..... titles ..... in ..... women's ..... tennis ...... as ...... a ..... teenager ...... even ..... though ..... Graf ..... was ..... in ..... the ..... middle ..... of ..... her ..... career. :kiss:

She-ra
Oct 20th, 2004, 06:56 AM
Graf took the #1 spot away from Seles twice in 91 and twice again in 96.
And would have done the same of course in 93 even without the stabbing.
Need I to remind you that Graf trailed Seles with 58 pts. in the rankings at end of 91, but only with 32 pts. at end of 92 and only with 21 pts. in April 93, just before the stabbing?





Of course Seles was superior to Graf in 91/92 - although she didn't win the most important tournament of them all (Wimbledon) and Graf won it twice, although Graf leads Seles 3-2 during Seles's #1 tenure. Seles won the lesser slams in those years. Because Graf slumped badly, losing 7 of 8 matches to Sabby ......




Ah, slowly it sinks in, Ladiez, doesn't it?
Navi had a winning record in 90-93 against Graf. So did Sabby, and so did Novi in 91/92.
Garrison, Capriati scored their only wins against Graf.
What more do you need as a proof for the Graf Slump?

BTW, Navi lost her #1 spot in summer of 80 and didn't regain it until summer of 82. She was 23-25 years old back then - in "the middle of her career". :lol:


Seles didn't win a lot in the middle of her career (95-99). In fact, she lost even 4 of 5 matches against an aging Graf ....

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Graf fanatic says : It's not Steffi's fault that Monica decided to skip 2 and half years on the tour.

The Truth was that.. It ..... was ..... the ..... fault ..... of ..... a ..... jealous ..... Steffi ..... Graf ..... fan. ..... If ..... Monica ..... Seles ..... had ..... not ..... been ..... the ..... obvious ..... best ..... player ..... in ..... those ..... years ..... then ..... WHY ..... would ..... the ..... jealous ..... Graf ..... fan ..... have ..... to ...... plunge ..... a ..... sharp ..... knife ..... into ..... the ..... back ..... of ...... Seles? :kiss:

Lemonskin.
Oct 20th, 2004, 08:47 AM
Are you slow? :lol:

Calimero377
Oct 20th, 2004, 08:07 PM
There had to be a REASON ... there had to be a MOTIVE ... for Gunther Parche to accomplish something second ranked Graf no longer could. ....

Parche was retarded, had an IQ below 70.
No wonder he thought that Seles was better than Graf.

Same with She-ra.
A boggled mind ...



:lol:

Athena
Oct 21st, 2004, 06:56 AM
Parche was retarded, had an IQ below 70.
No wonder he thought that Seles was better than Graf.

Same with She-ra.
A boggled mind ...



:lol:

Obviously, birds of the same feathers FLOCK together. Parche and Calimero are ONE :lol: :lol: :lol: Does Graf ever had any NORMAL SANE fans? :haha: :haha: poor thing :lol:

Athena
Oct 21st, 2004, 06:57 AM
Are you slow? :lol:

I think she wrote it for Graf fanatics like you who are SLOW in the mental area in understanding the real history of the women's game. :lol: :lol: :lol: