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lakeway11
Oct 7th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Two Girls, Two Shots To The Head
The Guardian - UK
10-6-4

Islam Dwidar's classmates were still taking in her shocking death - the teacher weeping outside before facing the girls, her closest friend recounting how they walked to school together each day - when the news arrived about Tahreer Abu El Jidyan.

The two 15-year-old pupils at Jabaliya's school were both shot in the head by Israeli soldiers inside their homes just a few blocks and several hours apart. Islam died almost immediately after the bullet smashed through her forehead as she baked bread with her mother in their yard on Sunday. Tahreer is still on life support at a Gaza hospital after an operation to remove shards of shattered skull from her brain.

She lies motionless, with little to suggest she is alive other than gentle breathing. Doctors do not expect her to survive.

Tahreer's mother, Intisar, was at her bedside yesterday.

"Oh Tahreer, my heart. I wish I were lying in this bed, not you," she whispered to her child. "She was sweeping the floor in front of the door," said Mrs Abu El Jidyan. "I was standing talking to her. We knew the Israeli soldiers were around, we knew they had snipers in the buildings on our street but we didn't expect what happened. They just shot her in the head. Her brains spilled out. She said: 'Mum, I'm hit'. She praised God and she collapsed."

There were two bullets. The first struck Tahreer in the head. As she fell, the second hit the wall behind her. "I've no doubt a sniper shot her deliberately. There was no fighting in the area. There were no other shots, only the ones that hit Tahreer," said her mother.

With her stood Tahreer's 14-year-old brother, Naser, who was wounded by shrapnel last week. Israeli forces killed their father 11 years ago during the first intifada.

Mrs Abu El Jidyan regrets preventing Tahreer from walking to school on Sunday morning. She thought it would be too dangerous to venture out of their home in Jabaliya's Sikka neighbourhood because it is on the edge of the area occupied by Israeli troops and tanks last week. Snipers are posted in buildings overlooking their street and a tank is less than a block away.

"I wouldn't let her out of the house but it was dangerous at home too. When there was fighting, bullets came through the walls. We stopped using some rooms on the side where the Israelis are," she said.

Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups say that about half of the nearly 80 people killed by the army over the past week of "Operation Days of Penitence" are civilians. The military says it has carefully targeted Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters with missile strikes.

But while the numbers are in dispute - in part because it is often hard to say whether youths in their mid to late teens are bystanders or part of the Palestinian resistance - there is no doubt that a growing number of children have been felled by Israeli snipers.

At Islam and Tahreer's school in Jabaliya yesterday morning, the headmistress, Rukaya Kamal al Budani, fielded calls from parents wanting to know if it was safe to send their girls. "If they can get here, it's safe," was her stock reply. But of 1,150 pupils, fewer than 200 turned up.

Before word reached the school about Tahreer, Mrs al Budani was getting to grips with the death of Islam.

"This is our first casualty at the school," she said. "I don't know how to deal with the girls. It's going to have a big impact on her classmates and friends. I'm shocked that no one in the free world condemns the killing of a child."

Then one of the male teachers tells Mrs al Budani about the shooting of Tahreer the previous day. The headmistress sits in silence.

Until June, the two young women had been classmates, but then Tahreer failed her exams and was held back for a year. Asmaa Abu Samaan walked to school with her each morning.

"I met her in front of my house each morning to walk to school. I did my homework with her. I keep thinking that if she is brain-dead and not killed perhaps she is still suffering. I can't stand it," she said.

Asmaa walked to school yesterday morning without her friend."I walked against the wall hoping the soldiers can't see me. I want to go to school because I know the Jews do not want us to study because we need to be educated to build our country," she said.

But the killing went on as the conflict claimed the life of another teenage girl in the Gaza strip yesterday. Palestinian medics said Israeli soldiers fired about 20 bullets into 13- year-old Iman al-Hams, including five into her head.

The military said she had entered a forbidden zone in Rafah refugee camp, and that she dropped a bag that soldiers feared was a bomb.

The Palestinians said Iman was walking to school when troops entered the camp and that she dropped her bag as she ran away in fear.

The bag was not found to contain a bomb.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004 http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1320735,00.html

"Sluggy"
Oct 7th, 2004, 03:16 PM
and just what is "Israeli-style" supposed to mean?

jacobruiz
Oct 7th, 2004, 04:27 PM
I guess it means that since this murdering of children is sanctioned by the Israeli government it is not considered "terrorism" unlike the Palestinian suicide bombers.

Martian Willow
Oct 7th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Of course the palestinians are all terrorists and anything Israel does is self-defence, and if you don't agree you're an anti-semite. :mad:

lakeway11
Oct 13th, 2004, 01:59 AM
Woman escorting Palestinian kids beaten by mob of Israeli teens in Hebron

By BILL LAYE, CALGARY SUN

Threats -- and now a beating -- from militant Israeli settlers has a Calgary aid worker volunteering in Hebron vowing she'll be staying put. Diane Janzen, 28, and an Italian worker, whose name isn't being released, were returning to their quarters at about 3 p.m. local time after walking five Palestinian children home from school in the area when a mob of eight Israeli teenagers from the nearby Ma'on settlement attacked them with sticks.

The Italian man suffered a broken arm and had his camcorder stolen while he tried to film the attack.

Janzen, who works for Christian Peacemaker Teams, escaped shaken, but suffering only bruises.

"We're all people of God and we all believe in the same God, so why would they do it?" Janzen said from Hebron when contacted by the Sun yesterday.

"But this is nothing compared to what the Palestinians are going through every day."

The mob dispersed when an Amnesty International worker, who speaks Hebrew, told them police were being called.

Also hurt in this recent attack was AI worker Donatello Rovera.

Janzen said even though she was "sore and bruised," she would be escorting the children to and from school again today.

Over the past 12 years, the threats have been common, but this physical violence is cause for concern, said Janzen's boss, Doug Pritchard, a Toronto-based co-ordinator with the non-profit Christian Peacemaker Teams.

The interdenominational CPT currently has eight aid workers in the Hebron area and just 10 days earlier two others were beaten.

One remains in hospital with a punctured lung, Pritchard said, adding Janzen was the one who found the two "in a pool of blood" and called for help.

"She's pretty shaken ... it's been a pretty intense 10 days."

Pritchard adds he's disgusted that, so far, the Israeli authorities have made no arrests in either attacks and they appear to have very little concern given the situation.

He noted it took Israeli police more than 30 minutes to arrive when the call about this attack came in.

"It's pretty appalling," Pritchard said, adding he's hoping the publicity surrounding these assaults will force officials to act.

"It (the violence) has never reached this level before."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/CalgarySun/News/2004/10/10/663376.html

Fingon
Oct 13th, 2004, 04:24 AM
First of all, it's known that the israli army has killed many civilians, like the palestinian terrorists have killed many israli civilians.

Said that, I find this article disturbing, because IMO it show the base why this conflict goes on and on and nobody seems to be able to stop it.

There is not a middle term, I never read/hear that both sides are wrong, either the palestinians are all murderers and terrorists and the israelis can do no wrong or the Isralis are murderers and the Palestinians are freedom fighters without responsiblity.

This article is very one-sided, it gives ONE side of the story, we know this girls were shot, but who do they know it was an israesli sniper? couldn't it have been a palestinian sniper?

Couldn't it have been a lost bullet? there were no fight there but bullets can travel long distances.

Were they really kill in those circumnstances? we know the palestinian terrorists use children.

I don't condone what israel does to civilians, but do they really have a choice?

the "brave" martyrs of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and co use civilians, including children as shields.

why has the fight to go to civilian areas? because the terrorists use civilian areas to protect themselves. Under those cicumnstances it's unavoidable that there will be civilian casualties.

Let's remember that israeli children have been killed by rockets fired from that area, or by suicide bombers.

One thing I am reasonably sure, the Israelis soldiers don't target civilians, especially kids for the sake of it, they may overreact, they might be trigger happy, they might not give a damn when they think they have no choice, but their aim is not to kill children, sure they think those children are the palestinian's responsibility not theirs, but that's not their objective, if anything else, they know it doesn't help their cause.

Palestinian gunmen do target children, they have deliberated shot children, or pregnant women, multiple times, not by accident, not out of fear, not as a collateral damage, simply because it's what they wanted to do.

Israel should make an effort to make a distinction between innocent civilians and terrorists, it's not easy but they should try, so should the western media.

PointBlank
Oct 13th, 2004, 04:33 AM
This stuff makes me feel bad to be an Israeli..I hear this stuff everyday on the news but this story got me..Its like me walking to school and getting shot..I hate the fact I have to deal with it..If Jews thought stuff like this was bad in WW2 keeping them in Ghettos(like Refugee camps) and getting killed just for sweeping the floor was bad then what do they think now..Though in WW2 it was much diffrent it is basically the killing of people for the joy of it..Karma.

*Yoav*
Oct 13th, 2004, 11:04 AM
The case in this thread is very unusual, it has been seriously spoken on the media and the responsable will be charged and punished, but this is not the "Israeli-style" of protecting the nation and soldiers, we are not unhuman and animals like the Palestians, who kills innocent peoples and kids, as many as they can.

"Sluggy"
Oct 13th, 2004, 11:12 AM
Do you really think that if we gave the Palestinians everything they wanted that the war would stop? If you think so, bring on your EVIDENCE. Dont assume that the little guy is always oppressed and Right. The palestinians are not David and Israel Goliath. MOST of the Arab world has been and is still committed to wiping Israel right off the map and pulverising us into smitherines. That is the same for the United States. they dont want peace and harmony, they want to kill jews and Americans and are offered tons of virgins in heaven if they do so. Israel has gone to the bargaining table many times and to me it is clear that the Palestinians cant abide by their agreements, cant control thier terrorists, etc etc. They wont honor their agreements, and the attacks will never end.

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 12:39 PM
To say that because (probably most Palestinians) would like 2C Israel destroyed, thus Israel can't abandon the occupied territories, is mixing 2 unrelated things. Isreal could (except in Jerusalem as it was B4 the post-1967 expansion of it) withdraw to the pre-1967 borders, with the proclaimed intention to prevent foreign armies from entering the new Palestinian state if they tried. (And build the security fence along that border).

Ted of Teds Tennis
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:08 PM
Jolly Roger:

Have Hamas ever accepted Israel's right to exist?

"Sluggy"
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Jolly Roger:

Have Hamas ever accepted Israel's right to exist?



No, and they are not the only ones. Lots of Arab Nations would do away with Israel if they could. They want to fight fight fight. If peace were achieved, there would still be attacks against Jews. Its like that Gilligans Island episode (most are too young to have seen it) where a japanese soldier lands on the island and he still thinks WWII is going on. Some people will never call it quits. :fiery:

Volcana
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Do you really think that if we gave the Palestinians everything they wanted that the war would stop?You mean actually give them back their homes in the pre-Israel Palestine. And let everyone who legally has the 'right of return' actually return? Adn then do a South Africa style 'Truth and Reconciliation' Commission, and have the people from BOTH sides who've abused and murdered civilians tell the truth in public?

Yes I think the war would stop. But Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. A LOT of Palestinians have the 'right of return'.

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Jolly Roger:

Have Hamas ever accepted Israel's right to exist?No, but that's irrelevant. Israel has (and will continue to have) the power to protect itself within the "1967 borders + corridor to Western Wall".

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:50 PM
maybe, nobody can be sure about that....see what happened in the first israeli war....
but why would they give up their territory without getting anything in return as long as the palestinians don't show any will towards peace?

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:56 PM
maybe, nobody can be sure about that....see what happened in the first israeli war....
but why would they give up their territory without getting anything in return as long as the palestinians don't show any will towards peace?What does keeping the territories do for Israel, except move it ever closer to a minority rule status (re. all the area it controls) like the old South Africa or Rhodesia?

"Sluggy"
Oct 13th, 2004, 02:56 PM
You mean actually give them back their homes in the pre-Israel Palestine. And let everyone who legally has the 'right of return' actually return? Adn then do a South Africa style 'Truth and Reconciliation' Commission, and have the people from BOTH sides who've abused and murdered civilians tell the truth in public?

Yes I think the war would stop. But Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. A LOT of Palestinians have the 'right of return'.


Yes, that is exactly what i mean. I dont believe that if Israel met all of their demands that it would stop the suicide bombings.

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 03:08 PM
What does keeping the territories do for Israel, except move it ever closer to a minority rule status (re. all the area it controls) like the old South Africa or Rhodesia?
some of the territories they can lose without problem but the original border was not viable...because not defendable....
but my question was WHY would they do that? they won the territories fair and square during the war, the borders of every country were defined that way (except when you have a natural border), but when it's israel then it's scandalous....

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 03:09 PM
the refugees, THAT is the real scandal, but as much for the arabs as the israeli....

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 03:38 PM
some of the territories they can lose without problem but the original border was not viable...because not defendable....
but my question was WHY would they do that? they won the territories fair and square during the war, the borders of every country were defined that way (except when you have a natural border), but when it's israel then it's scandalous....Its defensible with today's military technology (inc. AWACS surveillance planes, and cruise missles). Plus, the Afrikaaners' Boer forebears won control of South Africa militarily, so why not let them have kept minority rule by your "might makes right" standard?

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Its defensible with today's military technology (inc. AWACS surveillance planes, and cruise missles). Plus, the Afrikaaners' Boer forebears won control of South Africa militarily, so why not let them have kept minority rule by your "might makes right" standard?
because the demands of the black mpopulation in south africa were reasonable (equal rights) whereas the demands of the palestinians (throw the jews back in the sea) are not....

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 03:56 PM
because the demands of the black mpopulation in south africa were reasonable (equal rights) whereas the demands of the palestinians (throw the jews back in the sea) are not....But again, I'm not advocating a unified state where they'd have the power to!

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 04:02 PM
But again, I'm not advocating a unified state where they'd have the power to!
if you advocate the right of return for all the refugees by definition you do, that's why the situation is inextricable I'm afraid....
the thing is also....and It's just my opinion, you can hate me for it, throw arguments against it, I admit I'm not always rational...but
I feel when you are the attacker (as in when the palestinians didn't agree to a fair split of the land as wanted by the UN, but get your weapons to get rid of the jews, you lose any right to after losing that war reclaim what you lost in that war by saying "it's unfair"

PointBlank
Oct 13th, 2004, 04:17 PM
If we let them have their country again it would stop 70% of the violence going on now..It wont stop all that want their country back because they took it they want it back but it will sort of calm them down having their own goverment and not have to worry about Israelis standing on their corners..why didnt they just give the Jews Germany after the war.

*JR*
Oct 13th, 2004, 05:06 PM
if you advocate the right of return for all the refugees by definition you do, that's why the situation is inextricable I'm afraid....
Volcana advocated that, not I. (I wonder if he'd give most of the US back to the Native Americans, BTW).

rand
Oct 13th, 2004, 05:11 PM
Volcana advocated that, not I. (I wonder if he'd give most of the US back to the Native Americans, BTW).
it was only a question, because that's what many people do, not only volcana...but then there's still part two...
why would they do it, and why would that bne any different as to give the US back to the Indians indeed :lol:

Veritas
Oct 13th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Of course, the Palestinians are not the only victims. Israeli children have also been executed "Palestinian style".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60578-2004Sep29.html

As you can see the Israeli Army is not the only child-killing machine in this conflict. Those "freedom fighters" are just as guilty. I believe if they have the same financial support and the amount of training and weaponry that the Israeli Army has, more Israeli kids will be killed than Palestinian ones.

CooCooCachoo
Oct 13th, 2004, 07:26 PM
The whole war is quite petty really, if you think about it.. (Which you shouldn't do too much, because it will give you a serious case of migraine).

Justeenium
Oct 13th, 2004, 07:55 PM
You mean actually give them back their homes in the pre-Israel Palestine. .

they were told had they left they would not be allowed to come back. Unfortunately for them, they stayed dear to their religion and not to their country. they lost the bet.

Justeenium
Oct 13th, 2004, 08:02 PM
If we let them have their country again it would stop 70% of the violence going on now..It wont stop all that want their country back because they took it they want it back but it will sort of calm them down having their own goverment and not have to worry about Israelis standing on their corners..why didnt they just give the Jews Germany after the war.

please tell me when they had their country before?

Ted of Teds Tennis
Oct 13th, 2004, 09:24 PM
You mean actually give them back their homes in the pre-Israel Palestine. And let everyone who legally has the 'right of return' actually return? Adn then do a South Africa style 'Truth and Reconciliation' Commission, and have the people from BOTH sides who've abused and murdered civilians tell the truth in public?

Yes I think the war would stop. But Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. A LOT of Palestinians have the 'right of return'.

The so-called "right of return" is a load of bullshit. Nobody argues that the Sudeten Germans have any "right of return".

Fingon
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Do you really think that if we gave the Palestinians everything they wanted that the war would stop? If you think so, bring on your EVIDENCE. Dont assume that the little guy is always oppressed and Right. The palestinians are not David and Israel Goliath. MOST of the Arab world has been and is still committed to wiping Israel right off the map and pulverising us into smitherines. That is the same for the United States. they dont want peace and harmony, they want to kill jews and Americans and are offered tons of virgins in heaven if they do so. Israel has gone to the bargaining table many times and to me it is clear that the Palestinians cant abide by their agreements, cant control thier terrorists, etc etc. They wont honor their agreements, and the attacks will never end.
no, the war won't stop. Those who said the problem exists because of the Palestinian's living conditions don't understand the nature of terrorism.

Hamas and the other don't want a better life for Palestinians, they don't want a palestinian state, they don't want their demands met, that's why they set impossible demands, they don't want negotiations, they want to keep fighting because that's where their power is.

They are now heroes, they are leaders, they have power, if tomorrow the Palestinian got everything they want, and had their own state, Hamas's reason to exist would dissappear, they could join the political process but they would be one more, their grip in power would be weakened if not completely erased.

Plus, most of the members of Hamas (and the other terrorist groups) only know how to kill, they know how to shoot a gun, they know how to prepare a bomb, but they don't know how to live a normal life, being part of a society. Their basic needs are met by people that worships them, they are "fighters", if there is no war, there is no room for fighters.

It's a similar problem that many government in the past have faced, what to do with their soldier in peace times, they are expensive to maintain and they are violent. Many times (especially in the middle age) government went to war just because they have surplus soldiers and they did not want to keep them inactive, or they would use them as mercenaries for other countries (there are several examples).

I know they are not palestinians, but there are terrorists, why do you think the terrorists that kidnapped the two americans and the british in Iraq asked for conditions impossible to meet? (they wanted the release of female prisioners when there weren't any), because they didn't want their demands to be met, they wanted to behead the captives to reaffirm the terror, which is their main target. That is like terrorists' minds work.

That's why I think Israel's policy of target killing Hamas leader is very smart, because it removes the safety they think they have, it makes the leaders pay a price for the power they hold, and make they think it's not worth to hold of that power if you are dead.

Fingon
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:17 PM
You mean actually give them back their homes in the pre-Israel Palestine. And let everyone who legally has the 'right of return' actually return? Adn then do a South Africa style 'Truth and Reconciliation' Commission, and have the people from BOTH sides who've abused and murdered civilians tell the truth in public?

Yes I think the war would stop. But Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. A LOT of Palestinians have the 'right of return'.
First, they won't get the right of return, that is off the table, and has always been.

If Israel allowed the expatriates to return, The israeli economy would collapse.

Plus, unless the Palestinians show they can be trusted and won't be carrying on suicide attacks, how do you think Israel would allow hundreds of thousands of possible terrorists to reside in its territory?

what happened in 1948 happened, you can't get things to the state they were then, it's not a matter of justice or lack of it, it's a matter of a practical solutions, and most palestinians and arabs (except for the extremists) have recognized that, Israel is an state and will remain like one, Israel will not negotiate its own destruction and I prefer not to think about what would happen if Israel is put in a situation that is fighting for its mere existence.

And the war would not stop, it would never stop, I won't repeat myself but I explain that in another post.

Once I accused you about believing everything the terrorists said, I think I probably expressed myself wrong. I don't think you are in favour of terrorists or anything like that (I wouldn't even bother to talk to you if I thought that), what I meant is that I believe that like many people, you misjudge the terrorists and don't understand their mentality.

We can go on about the numerous terrorist organizations througout history, and whether they were communist, muslim, christians or whatever, no matter if they were peruvian, palestinians, irish, young or old, you see the same pattern, and in all cases they were defeated there isn't a single case where they got what they wanted, in every case they were defeated by destroying their leaders (either killing them or putting them in jail), there are no exception that I know of, and at the end of the day, I can't find a difference between a current terrorist that does it because or religion, with a terrorist in the 60s that did that because of politics, it's all terrorism.

PointBlank
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:18 PM
please tell me when they had their country before?
Well they didnt have it but they had Palestine..which would probably be a independent nation from the United Kingdom by now if not given to Israel

Fingon
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:22 PM
If we let them have their country again it would stop 70% of the violence going on now..It wont stop all that want their country back because they took it they want it back but it will sort of calm them down having their own goverment and not have to worry about Israelis standing on their corners..why didnt they just give the Jews Germany after the war.
actually, unless I am getting different information, what have significantly reduced the attacks on israeli civilians was the killing of hamas leaders, there have been comparatively few incidents since that happened, despite Hamas's vows for revenge.

And you are not serious about giving the jews Germany, are you? somebody said that politics is the art of what is possible. Do you really think they could give Germany to the jews?

It might not be fair but that's how the world works. it's the same case that when they say: why the US was eager to get rid of Saddam but they don't do anything about the Chinese.

It's like hello? China has 1.3 billion people and nuclear weapons, case closed. Utopic solutions are not solutions, you need solutions that are workable and possible, otherwise you are living in la la land.

Fingon
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Well they didnt have it but they had Palestine..which would probably be a independent nation from the United Kingdom by now if not given to Israel
that's debatable.

They had a land, but not their own, it was under british rule, before that under Ottoman rule, before that under the caliphates, before that under the Roman empire, before that under the Seleucidas (sp?) before that under Alexander the Great, the Persians and so on.

so it's really a very difficult matter, who has better rights, the newest habitants, the oldests (in both case it's Isralis), nearly every country in the world has been built at the expense of others, including the United States and Europe.

Should the american indians be given back their land? they were there before, should they start terrorist activity if they don't get it? same applies to Australian native, the Tibet and even the Arab world.

Justeenium
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:31 PM
Well they didnt have it but they had Palestine..which would probably be a independent nation from the United Kingdom by now if not given to Israel

Ah, the ignorance of this world :rolleyes:

First of all, there never was a Palestinian nation. The physical geography has been hotly contested since the Islamic Caliphs invaded around 638 AD. Prior to that its population was primarily Jewish and Christian, it was a Roman Satellite until the fall of Rome in 476 AD.



http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_when_islam.php



Quote:
When did Islam come to Palestine?

Arabs began a series of conquests in the 7th century AD under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad during the rise of Islam. Muhammad was born in Makkah (Mecca) in the western part of the Arabian Peninsula, a city on the trade routes connecting Yemen to the south, the Mediterranean to the north, the Persian Gulf to the east, and Africa through the Red Sea port of Jeddah to the west. Muhammad delivered a spiritual and social message based on the unity and oneness of God, derived from Jewish and Christian concepts already well established in Arabia. In 622, Muhammad founded the first Muslim community in Medina. His immensely popular message confronted the weakness of the Byzantine and Sasanian empires and led to the success of a series of dramatic conquests. Within 20 years of Muhammad’s death in 632, Muslim Arabs ruled a territory extending from Egypt deep into Iran.

Palestine was invaded by Muslim Arab armies during this period, capped by the capture of Jerusalem in 638 AD. The invasion was bloody for the long-established Christian and Jewish inhabitants and the countryside was devastated. This was the start of 1300 years of Muslim presence in what the Arabs called Filastin, an Arabic rendition of the name Palaestina assigned by the Romans. Mohammed originally designated that his followers must face Jerusalem when praying, a gesture designed to win support from Arabian Jews. Later, Muslims switched to praying toward Mecca, and the Koran does not mention Jerusalem. In 715 AD, the site from which the prophet was believed to have ascended to Heaven on a night journey was arbitrarily associated with Jerusalem where the Dome of the Rock had been built in 687 AD by Caliph Abd al-Malik. Based on this association, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was built at the same site and the city became, after Makkah and Medina, the third holiest city of Islam. See the topic on Jerusalem for more information.

The Muslim Arabs ruled Palestine under the system of dhimmitude, the rules that apply to non-Muslim populations conquered by jihad. There is a myth that the time of Islamic rule was a "golden age" for Jews and that they were better treated by the Muslims than by the Christians. This myth has been shattered by scholarship that shows continuous persecution of Jews and Christians under Islamic rule.

Sources and additional reading on this topic:
Center for Contemporary Arab Studies: The Arabs and Islam
Palestine during the "Golden Age of Islam"
Indigenous Peoples Under the Rule of Islam
Dhimmitude.org
Muhammad, the Qurayza Massacre, and PBS



The Ottoman Empire gained control of Palestine in 1516 and held it until its collapse in 1917. Britain gained control in 1920







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration%2C_1917
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot_Agreement




By this time the Jewish population had been reduced to 10% of the general population. The method of reduction was one of cold blooded murder extortion and intimidation by the Islamic Arabs. The British fucked the situation up by promising both the Jew’s and the Arabs a homeland in what was known as Trans-Jordan. The Arabs got 85% of Trans-Jordan and the Jews got 15%. The Arabs have been trying ever since to increase their share of Trans-Jordan/Palestine to 100%.

It is of significant note that the portion of Trans-Jordan that the Jew got was mostly arid dessert uninhabited by Arabs that they turned into useable land through sophisticated irrigation processes. More important is the fact that the Jewish consolidation of land in Palestine prior to Israel’s declaration of independence was through the legal purchase of undesirable arid dessert land which they irrigated and made fertile through extensive hard work.




The Arab claim on Palestine is primarily based on the concept that any geographic location that Islam has conquered forever remains Islamic/Arab land.


The vast majority of Palestinians (between 85 and 90%) currently claiming Israel as their ancestral homelands are refugees from Jordan who were expelled first from Jordan for terrorism to Lebanon and then from Lebanon also for terrorism. This is the reason that the majority of these Palestinians now live in refugee camps. A small percentage of the current Palestinian population (approximately 589,200) lived in what is now Israel until 1948 when Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian forces lined up on Israel’s borders and broadcast warnings of their impending invasion and warned the Arabs to flee. Approximately 400,000 Arabs took that warning and fled against the urgings of the newly formed Israeli government which included warning that should they choose to flee, they would not be allowed to return and any land holding they had would be declared null and void and become the property of the nation of Israel. The vast majority of Palestinians gambled that the combined Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian forces would drive the Israeli’s into the sea and return all of Israel/Palestine into Islamic/Arabic hands, it was a gamble that they lost.


A simple analogy of what has transpired over the last 1300 years is that the Jew’s built a house and lived in it for over 1500 years, 1300 year ago a group of murderers assaulted that house and forced the Jew’s to lock themselves in their bedrooms whilst the murderers took over the rest of the house and the property that the house was built on. 60 years ago the Jew’s regained control of their house and drove the murderers out of the house but allowed them to squat out in the back yard. Since then the murderers have been trying to get back into the house and regain control of it claiming that since they had been in control of the house for the last 1300 years it was now their house. This faulty logic ignores both how they came into control of the house and the crucial fact that the builders and original inhabitants of the house never surrendered or ceased to inhabit the house.


In short the Palestinians stole the land, murdered its inhabitants and now claim that it is theirs because they lived there for a long time.


The truth is that the Jew’s have simply recovered stolen property.


No this is not in any way analogous to the plight of the native Americans who fought a war against the invading white man and upon losing that war surrendered control of the North American continent to the white invaders agreeing to restrict any future claims to land to those areas designated as “Reservations” where they retained sovereign statues as a condition upon which hostilities were ceased between the Native Americans and the predominantly white European invaders.


you can read more about the Arabs continually failing the palestinians here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

Halardfan
Oct 13th, 2004, 10:36 PM
Its a miserable cycle of violence, visiting horror on all sides, and it has implications for the wider world too.

At some time in 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years, or 50 years, both sides will have to do a deal...goodness knows how many from either side will die in the meantime.

PointBlank
Oct 13th, 2004, 11:16 PM
Ah, the ignorance of this world :rolleyes:
O yes,you have lived in Israel since 3. God I should listen to you more. How dumb.

Move here. Then well talk. K. :)

flyingmachine
Oct 13th, 2004, 11:21 PM
The main problem is the cycle of violence of hate and revenge at both sides. Both sides have to realised that they have live together however bitter they feel as the results of all these violence they have to forgive which is a lot more harder to do than to said. :rolleyes:
I think is should be one state either Jewish or Palestinan but a SECULAR STATE this is the only way to solve the problem of the right of return because the Arab state don't want them and the Palestinans wants to go back. There are many reasons why things becomes as such. You have to realised that TWO PEOPLE but ONE LAND and both of these people feels they belong to this land and no where else this is why this conflict started in the first place. Anyway as Chris Ba said they have to make a deal sometime in the furture to end all this. However god knows when this would happened. :rolleyes: :o

Bacardi
Oct 13th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Just convince Bush there is oil in Isreal, he'll go for it.

Philbo
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:19 AM
First of all, it's known that the israli army has killed many civilians, like the palestinian terrorists have killed many israli civilians.

Said that, I find this article disturbing, because IMO it show the base why this conflict goes on and on and nobody seems to be able to stop it.

There is not a middle term, I never read/hear that both sides are wrong, either the palestinians are all murderers and terrorists and the israelis can do no wrong or the Isralis are murderers and the Palestinians are freedom fighters without responsiblity.

This article is very one-sided, it gives ONE side of the story, we know this girls were shot, but who do they know it was an israesli sniper? couldn't it have been a palestinian sniper?

Couldn't it have been a lost bullet? there were no fight there but bullets can travel long distances.

Were they really kill in those circumnstances? we know the palestinian terrorists use children.

I don't condone what israel does to civilians, but do they really have a choice?

the "brave" martyrs of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and co use civilians, including children as shields.

why has the fight to go to civilian areas? because the terrorists use civilian areas to protect themselves. Under those cicumnstances it's unavoidable that there will be civilian casualties.

Let's remember that israeli children have been killed by rockets fired from that area, or by suicide bombers.

One thing I am reasonably sure, the Israelis soldiers don't target civilians, especially kids for the sake of it, they may overreact, they might be trigger happy, they might not give a damn when they think they have no choice, but their aim is not to kill children, sure they think those children are the palestinian's responsibility not theirs, but that's not their objective, if anything else, they know it doesn't help their cause.

Palestinian gunmen do target children, they have deliberated shot children, or pregnant women, multiple times, not by accident, not out of fear, not as a collateral damage, simply because it's what they wanted to do.

Israel should make an effort to make a distinction between innocent civilians and terrorists, it's not easy but they should try, so should the western media.
What a load of one sided crap!!! Insinuating the palestinian girl was shot by a palestinian!! That comment just shows how ONE SIDED you are Fingon.

Absolutely full of shit.

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:21 AM
If someone posted an article of a Black man gruesomely killing a child and titled it "Executing young girls/boys... Black style," Wouldn't their be an outrage.

Why the double standard.

anyways i'll do it------- :ras: to the sick fuck who started this thread

Philbo
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
I just reread your post FIngon and Im amazed that you attack the article as being one sided - look at your own post.

Like Israel have never shot at children deliberately!! I have a 1 hour documentary at home that shows FOOTAGE of it hapenning Fingon.

The Palestinians arent above using children either, which is reprehensible, but PLEASE stop the bullshit about how the Israelis only target children if forced, to or by accident - you sound like an Israeli cabinet member!! pathetic.

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:22 AM
O yes,you have lived in Israel since 3. God I should listen to you more. How dumb.

Move here. Then well talk. K. :)

:retard: so just because you've lived in the area for ten years means you know perfectly the history of the area for the last sixty years? :retard:^:retard:

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Its a miserable cycle of violence, visiting horror on all sides, and it has implications for the wider world too.

At some time in 5 weeks, 5 months, 5 years, or 50 years, both sides will have to do a deal...goodness knows how many from either side will die in the meantime.

The Arabs have had several chances in the last 50 years to accept peace, unfortunately they have rejected it each time.

Fingon
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:32 AM
The Arabs have had several chances in the last 50 years to accept peace, unfortunately they have rejected it each time.
actually, the arabs accept peace now (probably after losing 3 wars). And according to polls (I don't know how reliable they are) the Palestinian people want peace as well.

The ones who don't want peace are the terrorists, for the reasons exposed, or Arafat, and maybe neither Sharon, but the Israli people do, they vote Sharon because they think the likud party will protect them better. Problem is, if a more moderate government is elected in Israel and there is a terrorist attack the position will change again.

Honestly I don't know how they can get out of this, unless all the terrorist leaders are eliminated.

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:37 AM
actually, the arabs accept peace now (probably after losing 3 wars). And according to polls (I don't know how reliable they are) the Palestinian people want peace as well.

The ones who don't want peace are the terrorists, for the reasons exposed, or Arafat, and maybe neither Sharon, but the Israli people do, they vote Sharon because they think the likud party will protect them better. Problem is, if a more moderate government is elected in Israel and there is a terrorist attack the position will change again.

Honestly I don't know how they can get out of this, unless all the terrorist leaders are eliminated.

well mainly i'm talking about the surrounding Arab countries. but remember Arafat rejected one of Clinton's compromises too.

I disagree with your last statement. I think once the west bank barrier is completed, Israel will remove all settlements inside the barrier and completely withdraw from Gaza. What's within the barriers will become an independent palestinian state.

Fingon
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:45 AM
well mainly i'm talking about the surrounding Arab countries. but remember Arafat rejected one of Clinton's compromises too.

I disagree with your last statement. I think once the west bank barrier is completed, Israel will remove all settlements inside the barrier and completely withdraw from Gaza. What's within the barriers will become an independent palestinian state.
well Hamas doesn't want the West Bank or Gaza, with or without barrier, they want it all, they want to implant a muslim state (taliban style) and they say the israelis can stay if the obey the sharia law.

They will not stop, ever, and regarding Arafat, people seem to forget he was a terrorist, and some think that the reason why he withdrew from the peace conference was because he did not want peace, under war he can't be moved, under peace he could lose power. It seems it backfired but really, they were offered them a lot more than they would get now, and they could have saved this years of senseless killing on both sides.

*JR*
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:53 AM
well Hamas doesn't want the West Bank or Gaza, with or without barrier, they want it all, they want to implant a muslim state (taliban style) and they say the israelis can stay if the obey the sharia law.

They will not stop, ever, and regarding Arafat, people seem to forget he was a terrorist, and some think that the reason why he withdrew from the peace conference was because he did not want peace, under war he can't be moved, under peace he could lose power. It seems it backfired but really, they were offered them a lot more than they would get now, and they could have saved this years of senseless killing on both sides.Wanting it and having the power to attain it are 2 different things. I still say that an Israel behind the '67 borders can defend itself, so long as it has the power to prevent foreign armies or heavy weapons entering the Palestinian state.

BTW, IC that Volcana never answered (re. Palestinian right of return) my comparison on Page 1 to the Native Americans.

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 01:57 AM
well Hamas doesn't want the West Bank or Gaza, with or without barrier, they want it all, they want to implant a muslim state (taliban style) and they say the israelis can stay if the obey the sharia law.

They will not stop, ever, and regarding Arafat, people seem to forget he was a terrorist, and some think that the reason why he withdrew from the peace conference was because he did not want peace, under war he can't be moved, under peace he could lose power. It seems it backfired but really, they were offered them a lot more than they would get now, and they could have saved this years of senseless killing on both sides.

I am aware of Hamas intentions. But does it matter if they can't get across the barrier? Gaza has a barrier around it, since then either 0 or 1 of the suicide bombers in Israel has come from Gaza

Fingon
Oct 14th, 2004, 02:02 AM
Wanting it and having the power to attain it are 2 different things. I still say that an Israel behind the '67 borders can defend itself, so long as it has the power to prevent foreign armies or heavy weapons entering the Palestinian state.

sure Israel can defend itself, it's known the israesli army is the best in the world.

The problem is, Israel is not innocent, we all know that, the same way Bush is not innocent. The problem is the lack of practical proposals by politicians, the media (and some posters). Israel took advantage of the 1967 war, they attacked them they want, they took their prize, is it right? no, but it's impossible to push Israel to leave those territories while terrorists keep striking. Of course Israel will not only try to ensure its safety, at the same time they will try to gain something. But as I said before, no deal is possible with Arafat, and no deal is possible with the terrorists, they have to get rid of both, and yes, maybe they need to get rid of Sharon, but they won't while the current situation persists.

People and the media can make all the moral condemns and ask for all the utopic solutions, but that will not help the palestinian people, or the israesli people, they need to find a solution that is workable. That's why every initiative fails, it's because they don't clean up first, and they don't try to give something to get something. It's like getting curing and illness but not removing the viruses, it will be back for sure (and I hope nobody come with biology shit, I know it's not exactly like that).


BTW, IC that Volcana never answered (re. Palestinian right of return) my comparison on Page 1 to the Native Americans.
did you? I made the exact same analogy in another post, but I guess it's ok to be liberal and progressist with other countries, but never with your own.

Fingon
Oct 14th, 2004, 02:06 AM
I am aware of Hamas intentions. But does it matter if they can't get across the barrier? Gaza has a barrier around it, since then either 0 or 1 of the suicide bombers in Israel has come from Gaza
I don't think the reason is the barrier, first of all the barrier doesn't cover the whole territory and even if it did I am sure they would be ways to get through.

For me the reason why Hamas hasn't striked too much is because they are scared, their leaders I mean. The israesli killed that cleric (can't remember his name), his succesor was a tough guy and promised to open the gates of hell, a few weeks leater he was killed as well.

They are not even using soldiers, helicopters they can't hear or see, or drones, it's just coming from the sky and the terrorists leaders are not very brave when their own life is at stake.

This is what happened to many other terrorist groups that looked invincible, shinning path is a good example, the eta, the ira, once they lost enough leaders the movements lost power.

IMO Hamas's days as a dangerous group are numbered, islamic jihad and the al aqsa martyrs never were too important anyway.

Justeenium
Oct 14th, 2004, 02:10 AM
Wanting it and having the power to attain it are 2 different things. I still say that an Israel behind the '67 borders can defend itself, so long as it has the power to prevent foreign armies or heavy weapons entering the Palestinian state.

BTW, IC that Volcana never answered (re. Palestinian right of return) my comparison on Page 1 to the Native Americans.

Why are you comparing the palestinians to the plight of native americans, Israeli never stole their land despite this common myth.

PointBlank
Oct 14th, 2004, 02:14 AM
:retard: so just because you've lived in the area for ten years means you know perfectly the history of the area for the last sixty years? :retard:^:retard:
Eleven years :anzela: ..and probably more than you :retard :scared: :seekhelp: :anze:

Ted of Teds Tennis
Oct 14th, 2004, 03:19 AM
BTW, IC that Volcana never answered (re. Palestinian right of return) my comparison on Page 1 to the Native Americans.

I don't think you ever answered my question about the "right of return" of the Sudeten Germans, either, for what that's worth.

Fingon
Oct 14th, 2004, 03:32 AM
I don't think you ever answered my question about the "right of return" of the Sudeten Germans, either, for what that's worth.
I know you didn't ask me.

but right to return where? :confused:

Kiwi_Boy
Oct 14th, 2004, 07:45 AM
A) The loss of innocent life is wrong. Period.
B) It is not Israeli policy to deliberately TARGET palestinian civilian lives. Unlike Palestinian Terror Organizations and even Arafat himself who do target innocent Israelis for the fact that they are innocent.
C)"Palestinians" Fired the first shots. Remember, terrorism is their economy..well the only ones who seem to count are the extremists who proclaim themselves as unilaterally representing the Palestinian People. Israeli reprisals with unfortunate innocent people being caught in the cross fire are their wages to survive.
D) It is the individual soldiers responsible for these "Blunders". Not the IDF Policy. Thus its not the "Israeli way". These soldiers will be punished.
E) The terrorists use innocent lives like umbrellas, the dont care that the rain falls on them, it just ends up making them look more popular.
F) Right of return? No way. Do your history. The majority left as they couldnt bare the thought of living with Jews. They were told to leave by the arabs while the jews were "Run into the sea"
G) A one state solution?..Hebron 1929. Not going to happen.
H) The barrier works, the numbers support this. It even saves Palestinian lives if you think about it. Less attacks less reprihsals. But the protestors around the globe are too dumb to think on their own without the aid of propaganda not fact.
I) Israel has no choice but to perform extrajudicial justice upon the terror group leaders. 1 life for 2000 is better than 4000.
J)In the latter attack, its not been proven yet either way. Why are some of you so quick to judge? Were you there?

rand
Oct 14th, 2004, 07:46 AM
Well they didnt have it but they had Palestine..which would probably be a independent nation from the United Kingdom by now if not given to Israel
No, they would probably be under the rule of Jordania (which of course is practically the same if you see what palestine used to be...but it would be called jordania, not palestine....

rand
Oct 14th, 2004, 07:50 AM
The main problem is the cycle of violence of hate and revenge at both sides. Both sides have to realised that they have live together however bitter they feel as the results of all these violence they have to forgive which is a lot more harder to do than to said. :rolleyes:
I think is should be one state either Jewish or Palestinan but a SECULAR STATE this is the only way to solve the problem of the right of return because the Arab state don't want them and the Palestinans wants to go back. There are many reasons why things becomes as such. You have to realised that TWO PEOPLE but ONE LAND and both of these people feels they belong to this land and no where else this is why this conflict started in the first place. Anyway as Chris Ba said they have to make a deal sometime in the furture to end all this. However god knows when this would happened. :rolleyes: :o
bullshit, the reason israel exists is that in the rest of the world jews were persecuted, make a secular state out of it and the jews are virtually dead....
don't think mankind changes in a mere 50 years....

flyingmachine
Oct 14th, 2004, 10:44 PM
bullshit, the reason israel exists is that in the rest of the world jews were persecuted, make a secular state out of it and the jews are virtually dead....
don't think mankind changes in a mere 50 years....
Yes jews were persecuted by varous people for many years since they left what is now Isreal but also they WANT to come back because as religion they BELIVE they beyond in this land (Isreal) and no where else. Anyway there many Jews who LIVE OUTSIDE Isreal (In fact there are more Jews living outside Isreal than inside it. ) and surivive so your idea that a secular state will kill off the Jews off is just BULLSHIT.
The main problem is that two groups of people but beyond in one land. Many Isrealis and Palastinans don't mind on sharing a state as long as they living peacefully. Unfortrately the men on top is too self interest to do that. :rolleyes: This is why groups like Hamas become stronger and the cycle of violence continue.

*JR*
Oct 14th, 2004, 11:24 PM
I know you didn't ask me.

but right to return where? :confused:Ted (sorry, I didn't see his original question on this) means to the then German area of (Czechoslovakia) that Hitler conquered in 1938 (B4 the rest of the country) a prelude to the Anschluss (unification) with (his native) Austria.

And in answer to Flying Machine, 98% of the Palstinians in a unified state could want peaceful co-existence and the other 2% could still fuck it up. And far more than 2% want the Jews gone. Kiwi Boy's reference to the Hebron Massacre of 1929 is correct.

Fingon
Oct 15th, 2004, 12:15 AM
Ted (sorry, I didn't see his original question on this) means to the then German area of (Czechoslovakia) that Hitler conquered in 1938 (B4 the rest of the country) a prelude to the Anschluss (unification) with (his native) Austria.


actually, the anschulss happened before.

I know what happened, Hitler claimed the Sudetes region arguing that the majority of the population in that area were Germans, and Chamberlain and Daladier gave him what he wanted thinking (wrongfully) that it would stop the war (quite a history lesson lost there).

what I don't understand is where the Sudetes should be allowed to come back? as far as I know they never were forced to move, only the region changed which country it belonged to (except for the jews that were sent to concentration camps).

rand
Oct 15th, 2004, 09:11 AM
Yes jews were persecuted by varous people for many years since they left what is now Isreal but also they WANT to come back because as religion they BELIVE they beyond in this land (Isreal) and no where else. Anyway there many Jews who LIVE OUTSIDE Isreal (In fact there are more Jews living outside Isreal than inside it. ) and surivive so your idea that a secular state will kill off the Jews off is just BULLSHIT.
The main problem is that two groups of people but beyond in one land. Many Isrealis and Palastinans don't mind on sharing a state as long as they living peacefully. Unfortrately the men on top is too self interest to do that. :rolleyes: This is why groups like Hamas become stronger and the cycle of violence continue.
ahem....I AM one of those jews living somewhere else...the point is, we can live where we live because we know if it gets too bad we still can get there....when the nazi's started butchering us, or when the french did, or when the spanish did, we had nowhere to flee to...now we do...it makes a huge difference, also to the persecutors....
as to "sharing a land"..;the completely pro-israeli biased post on the first page gotr something right...the palestinians DID get a part of Palestine (kingdom of jordania ) but they didn't want "living peacefully together" they wanted to "throw the jews back in the sea"....it really has nothing to do with religion it has to do with hatred....

there were many attempts at trying "to live together" all options have always been refused, most of the time by the palestinians...because they wanted everything not "part of it"...THAT's why hamas is so powerful....

the idea of the secular state is completely ridiculous, because in that secular state you get an overwhelming majority of palestinians, who will start persecute the jews again...and there will be no place left to go....history would start again in the same way...
it's as stupid as saying "Iraq is better off now, because now it can become a democratic state" yeah right, democratic state with more than 60% sjiites living in it....that will work....
the western world just decides for things they do not know, but think they know all...that's the biggest problem the world faces nowadays....extrmism on every sides is certainly related to that....
actually based on your post, filled with clichés, I really wonder what you know about the situation over there...historically speaking...

*JR*
Oct 15th, 2004, 01:18 PM
actually, the anschulss happened before.

I know what happened, Hitler claimed the Sudetes region arguing that the majority of the population in that area were Germans, and Chamberlain and Daladier gave him what he wanted thinking (wrongfully) that it would stop the war (quite a history lesson lost there).

what I don't understand is where the Sudetes should be allowed to come back? as far as I know they never were forced to move, only the region changed which country it belonged to (except for the jews that were sent to concentration camps).As a "perfect Aryan" your pal Babsi ought to know about all this! :p

lakeway11
Oct 18th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Killing children is no longer a big deal

By Gideon Levy

More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip. It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.


Palestinian human rights groups speak of even higher numbers: 598 Palestinian children killed (up to age 17), according to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, and 828 killed (up to age 18) according to the Red Crescent. Take note of the ages, too. According to B'Tselem, whose data are updated until about a month ago, 42 of the children who have been killed were 10; 20 were seven; and eight were two years old when they died. The youngest victims are 13 newborn infants who died at checkpoints during birth.

With horrific statistics like this, the question of who is a terrorist should have long since become very burdensome for every Israeli. Yet it is not on the public agenda. Child killers are always the Palestinians, the soldiers always only defend us and themselves, and the hell with the statistics.

The plain fact, which must be stated clearly, is that the blood of hundreds of Palestinian children is on our hands. No tortuous explanation by the IDF Spokesman's Office or by the military correspondents about the dangers posed to soldiers by the children, and no dubious excuse by the public relations people in the Foreign Ministry about how the Palestinians are making use of children will change that fact. An army that kills so many children is an army with no restraints, an army that has lost its moral code.

As MK Ahmed Tibi (Hadash) said, in a particularly emotional speech in the Knesset, it is no longer possible to claim that all these children were killed by mistake. An army doesn't make more than 500 day-to-day mistakes of identity. No, this is not a mistake but the disastrous result of a policy driven mainly by an appallingly light trigger finger and by the dehumanization of the Palestinians. Shooting at everything that moves, including children, has become normative behavior. Even the momentary mini-furor that erupted over the "confirming of the killing" of a 13-year-old girl, Iman Alhamas, did not revolve around the true question. The scandal should have been generated by the very act of the killing itself, not only by what followed.

Iman was not the only one. Mohammed Aaraj was eating a sandwich in front of his house, the last house before the cemetery of the Balata refugee camp, in Nablus, when a soldier shot him to death at fairly close range. He was six at the time of his death. Kristen Saada was in her parents' car, on the way home from a family visit, when soldiers sprayed the car with bullets. She was 12 at the time of her death. The brothers Jamil and Ahmed Abu Aziz were riding their bicycles in full daylight, on their way to buy sweets, when they sustained a direct hit from a shell fired by an Israeli tank crew. Jamil was 13, Ahmed six, at the time of their deaths.

Muatez Amudi and Subah Subah were killed by a soldier who was standing in the village square in Burkin and fired every which way in the wake of stone-throwing. Radir Mohammed from Khan Yunis refugee camp was in a school classroom when soldiers shot her to death. She was 12 when she died. All of them were innocent of wrongdoing and were killed by soldiers acting in our name.

At least in some of these cases it was clear to the soldiers that they were shooting at children, but that didn't stop them. Palestinian children have no refuge: mortal danger lurks for them in their homes, in their schools and on their streets. Not one of the hundreds of children who have been killed deserved to die, and the responsibility for their killing cannot remain anonymous. Thus the message is conveyed to the soldiers: it's no tragedy to kill children and none of you is guilty.

Death is, of course, the most acute danger that confronts a Palestinian child, but it is not the only one. According to data of the Palestinian Ministry of Education, 3,409 schoolchildren have been wounded in the intifada, some of them crippled for life. The childhood of tens of thousands of Palestinian youngsters is being lived from one trauma to the next, from horror to horror. Their homes are demolished, their parents are humiliated in front of their eyes, soldiers storm into their homes brutally in the middle of the night, tanks open fire on their classrooms. And they don't have a psychological service. Have you ever heard of a Palestinian child who is a "victim of anxiety"?

The public indifference that accompanies this pageant of unrelieved suffering makes all Israelis accomplices to a crime. Even parents, who understand what anxiety for a child's fate means, turn away and don't want to hear about the anxiety harbored by the parent on the other side of the fence. Who would have believed that Israeli soldiers would kill hundreds of children and that the majority of Israelis would remain silent? Even the Palestinian children have become part of the dehumanization campaign: killing hundreds of them is no longer a big deal.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/489479.html

jacobruiz
Oct 18th, 2004, 09:22 PM
What a sad and devastating article that is, Lakeway11. I know it is one-sided, but the facts remain.

After thousands of years of jewish suffering, Israeli jews deserve to live in peace and happiness. But until equal respect and rights are given to Palestinians, this will never happen.:sad:

sabandborg
Oct 19th, 2004, 03:14 AM
Palestine & Israel will both swear inocent re: the senseless slaughter of innocents. And the slaughter will continue.

No mysteries with these two, just more stories.