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alfajeffster
Oct 1st, 2004, 02:40 PM
In studying the history of women's tennis, it is apparent that the great players of the past, from Suzanne Lenglen to Steffi Graf, have all benefitted to a large extent from being pushed by one or more great rivals or competitors, and in many cases (Chris Evert is the most glaring example from the 1980s), have actually postponed retirement in order to rise to the challenge of a new or improved rival capable of pushing them to even greater heights.

Venus and Serena Williams, for all intents and purposes, dominated the sport for nearly three years, during which time they only had each other to deal with. Do you think, in the long run, that this may have hurt them or somehow hindered their drive to excel or push themselves on to greater achievement?

vogus
Oct 1st, 2004, 02:55 PM
Williams sister era is very clearly defined.

started: Wimbledon 2000 with Venus's win

ended: Wimbledon 2003 with Serena's win

during these three years the Williams sisters pretty much owned the tour (although JennCap still managed to steal their thunder somewhat with her comeback). Outside of it, the Williams have been a factor but clearly not the biggest one on tour.

bandabou
Oct 1st, 2004, 03:02 PM
Interesting question...I don´t think they´re motivated by other players, I think they´re more motivated when people dismiss them.

When people started to question Venus if was forever gonna stay in the shadow of Serena, boom....she goes and wins Wimbledon and the Open back to back for two years running.

Then people started calling Serena one-slam wonder....and then she got serious. she even said it by the end of 2001: Next year my goal is: top three and then no.1....and then we all saw what she was capable of in 2002 and 2003.

They just need something to get them mad again.....and then people´ll see that they´re still the best.

Paneru
Oct 1st, 2004, 03:29 PM
They just need something to get them mad again.....and then people´ll see that they´re still the best.

Also, having good health for an extended period
of time wouldn't hurt either.

They were dominating in 03' playing the finals
of OZ Open and Wimbledon, were then sidelined by
injury and have yet to regain the form they had when
they left.

I don't think having only each other hurt them
because they did beat all the others who were
their and no one had yet to really stand up to them.

Just has Henin-Hardenne and Clijsters really started making
their name the Williams were gone or impared by injury.

If they can be healthy for a majority of the 05' season
as well as the other top players I think we'll then begin
to really see what is what.

bandabou
Oct 1st, 2004, 03:51 PM
Also, having good health for an extended period
of time wouldn't hurt either.

They were dominating in 03' playing the finals
of OZ Open and Wimbledon, were then sidelined by
injury and have yet to regain the form they had when
they left.

I don't think having only each other hurt them
because they did beat all the others who were
their and no one had yet to really stand up to them.

Just has Henin-Hardenne and Clijsters really started making
their name the Williams were gone or impared by injury.

If they can be healthy for a majority of the 05' season
as well as the other top players I think we'll then begin
to really see what is what.


Agreed...2005 only thing they need is healthy.

azinna
Oct 1st, 2004, 04:21 PM
They just need something to get them mad again.....and then people´ll see that they´re still the best.
Yes they do need that extended period of good health/zero injuries. But they also benefited so much from Hingis' snide remarks and the "us against the world" mindset Richard cultivated. The good health allowed them to compete, but the attitude got them practising, grooved their strokes, sharpened their play.

Both key ingredients have been missing since mid-2003. In the last few weeks (especially with the umpire scandals) we're seeing the return of at least Rena and Richard, complete with health and attitude. Hopefully, this continues into 2005.

However, trying to figure out Venus leads us back to this thread's original question. It looks like it is indeed difficult for Venus to continue a tough off-court training programme with supremacy over her sister as a goal. For a period of time she was emotionally confused about this, and was just beginning to work things out in 2003 when the injuries started. Trust me, there would have been more certainty, more anger, more drive, if that had been JenCap or Hingis or Lindsay taking away her opportunities to three-peat in the slams of 2002.

Experimentee
Oct 1st, 2004, 04:37 PM
Venus and Sernea did push each other to improve, particularly Serena improved because she was tired of being in the shadow of Venus. I dont see how its different just bc they are sisters. They had a good rivalry like any two other players on the tour.

FrauleinSteffi
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:27 PM
I Think Venus & Serena can win more Slams of course but dominating the tour..I dont know there are too many great young talents...Myskina...Maria....Svetlana...Vera...The Russians are so many & too good! lol...also still in the mix Justine,Kim,Jennifer,Davenport...so many great players to contend with these days!:)

cheo23
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:31 PM
oh SERENA is MOre Motivated..Venus Still plays the Same way..She Doesn't Look like she wants to improve Her Sucky Game..She Still Plays with that sucky 2nd SERVE & that Pathetic Forehand TEchinque!!!!!!!!!! Mary JoE Fernandez, Mary Carillo, Tracy Austin & Jon Weirthem Agree she's Gotta get a Coach to work on her Forehand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! GEt it Together VEnus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crazy_Fool
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:36 PM
oh SERENA is MOre Motivated..Venus Still plays the Same way..She Doesn't Look like she wants to improve Her Sucky Game..She Still Plays with that sucky 2nd SERVE & that Pathetic Forehand TEchinque!!!!!!!!!! Mary JoE Fernandez, Mary Carillo, Tracy Austin & Jon Weirthem Agree she's Gotta get a Coach to work on her Forehand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! GEt it Together VEnus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree, her technique sucks, and seeing as she does not seem interested in working on it, she'll just continue to struggle.

cheo23
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:40 PM
I agree, her technique sucks, and seeing as she does not seem interested in working on it, she'll just continue to struggle.
EXaCtly! Durin the Open..they flashed back to her winnin against sucky Irina Spirlea..& the expression Venus showed everyone..Its NOt THere ANymore! Why is she Playin if she's NOt showin that kind of emotion or Whatever...Remember her outburst at Wimbledon in 1998 against Jana Novotna.."I KNow its OUT! She's Knows its OUT! EVeryone KNows IT OUT But U don't KNow its OUt!!!!!!!!!! to the umpire..its Like Where did that EMotion go to??????????????/ POOR Venus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Knizzle
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:43 PM
EXaCtly! Durin the Open..they flashed back to her winnin against sucky Irina Spirlea..& the expression Venus showed everyone..Its NOt THere ANymore! Why is she Playin if she's NOt showin that kind of emotion or Whatever...Remember her outburst at Wimbledon in 1998 against Jana Novotna.."I KNow its OUT! She's Knows its OUT! EVeryone KNows IT OUT But U don't KNow its OUt!!!!!!!!!! to the umpire..its Like Where did that EMotion go to??????????????/ POOR Venus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Every match in which she has had an outburst in, she lost, so that type of emotion does NOT help her.

cheo23
Oct 1st, 2004, 06:50 PM
Every match in which she has had an outburst in, she lost, so that type of emotion does NOT help her.
Name the Matches that supposedly she had AN OUTburst Besides lookin Discouraged or whatever

bandabou
Oct 1st, 2004, 07:24 PM
UHum....Venus´s problems are a bit more complicated. Some unexplainable losses and the technique isn´t improving. Some soul searching is needed there.

Serena, that win against Svetlana imo was huge...it wasn´t a tier I or a major, but she learned that she can still win FINALS! That was the problem....winning important points and playing her best when it matters.....that win could help her turn it around.

alfajeffster
Oct 1st, 2004, 07:45 PM
UHum....Venus´s problems are a bit more complicated. Some unexplainable losses and the technique isn´t improving. Some soul searching is needed there.

Serena, that win against Svetlana imo was huge...it wasn´t a tier I or a major, but she learned that she can still win FINALS! That was the problem....winning important points and playing her best when it matters.....that win could help her turn it around.
Actually, the more I think about that Capriati match, and the horrendous line call, and the injustice and negativity that it spawned, I think it may actually have helped Serena in the long run, and in effect worked like a clarion call, or a bell ringing her out of complacency. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she won both the YEC and the Australian Open and started on another tear. In fact, I'm hoping for it, because I'm very, very bored with the tennis the entire crop of Russian girls is playing- so incredibly one-dimensional. Sure, some of them ain't to hard to look at, but you know me- I'm watching the tennis.

Evelyn Tremble
Oct 1st, 2004, 07:50 PM
They have earned plenty of cash now so there’s no real incentive anymore. Somehow challenges don’t seem that important as they once did. Their main ambition was wealth to subsidise their other off court interests - as fashion designing and interior decorating-acting.
Could be that tennis just doesn’t mean as much to them as many people think. They have stated quite categorically that it never has.
It was quite clear during this years French Open that Venus did not have the drive-desire-enthusiasm she once had. Personally I think it was also very evident at this years Wimbledon when she was defeated by Karolina Sprem and the whole debacle of the umpiring. She just shrugged it off. I think if it had been a few years earlier she’d had went bonkers with the decision.
It must be so difficult to have that aspiration to win burn inside for years on the tour without off court activities interfering. That’s what make the Grafs-Navratilovas-Seles of the world so admirable. I think that Serena and Venus just fall short of that stratum.

skanky~skanketta
Oct 1st, 2004, 08:00 PM
this thread makes me depressed. come on venus, START WINNING GIRL!

bandabou
Oct 1st, 2004, 08:08 PM
Actually, the more I think about that Capriati match, and the horrendous line call, and the injustice and negativity that it spawned, I think it may actually have helped Serena in the long run, and in effect worked like a clarion call, or a bell ringing her out of complacency. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she won both the YEC and the Australian Open and started on another tear. In fact, I'm hoping for it, because I'm very, very bored with the tennis the entire crop of Russian girls is playing- so incredibly one-dimensional. Sure, some of them ain't to hard to look at, but you know me- I'm watching the tennis.

I´m with you, alfa....the tour better watch it out. I´m sensing a mad Serena coming to you next year! Her reaction in that final at China: the way she just destroyed that raquet....hmm, she might well be on something.

thelittlestelf
Oct 2nd, 2004, 12:42 AM
oh SERENA is MOre Motivated..Venus Still plays the Same way..She Doesn't Look like she wants to improve Her Sucky Game..She Still Plays with that sucky 2nd SERVE & that Pathetic Forehand TEchinque!!!!!!!!!! Mary JoE Fernandez, Mary Carillo, Tracy Austin & Jon Weirthem Agree she's Gotta get a Coach to work on her Forehand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!! GEt it Together VEnus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
She won four slams, Olympic gold, and over 30 titles altogether with that pathetic forehand and sucky 2nd serve. Her sucky game? How dare you :fiery: .

mboyle
Oct 2nd, 2004, 01:41 AM
entire crop of Russian girls is playing- so incredibly one-dimensional. .
um, what are Serena and Venus again?

cheo23
Oct 2nd, 2004, 03:06 AM
She won four slams, Olympic gold, and over 30 titles altogether with that pathetic forehand and sucky 2nd serve. Her sucky game? How dare you :fiery: .
WHATEVER! She hasn't Won a GRand Slam since Freakin 2001 US OPEN...the finals she lost to SEREna..Serena ATtacked that sucky 2nd SERve & that horrible forehand Technique..Go Look at their MAtches to Prove My POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET it Together thelittle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thelittlestelf
Oct 2nd, 2004, 03:42 AM
WHATEVER! She hasn't Won a GRand Slam since Freakin 2001 US OPEN...the finals she lost to SEREna..Serena ATtacked that sucky 2nd SERve & that horrible forehand Technique..Go Look at their MAtches to Prove My POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET it Together thelittle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow if you tell another person to get it together I'm going to rip you apart.

Just because her forehand and second serve aren't good against SERENA who is ONE player means DIDDLY SQUAT to how good the shots are against other players. Her forehand can be great, her second serve can be reliable, you've just never seen either shot in its glory. If you would like to see a good match where these shots are on display, take Wimbledon 1st round 2004, a RECENT match, and you will see that they are usually very solid.

FYI, I'm going to stick to MY point that no one can win four slams and 31 titles with a bad forehand and second serve.

On a side note, please stop using !!!!!!!!!!! it's making me http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/firey.gif and i want to :smash: you every time i see it.

cheo23
Oct 2nd, 2004, 03:50 AM
. If you would like to see a good match where these shots are on display, take Wimbledon 1st round 2004, a RECENT match, and you will see that they are usually very solid.
I don't consider the opponent she played I can't think of her name..but anyways..she's NOt a Good Mover..her sucky shots can work ON weak opponents but when she faces Lindsay & commits like Freakin 73 Unforced Errors In that Bank of the WEST Final & Loses to her at the US OPEN..its like Come ON NoW! GET A FOREHAND COACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a side note, please stop using !!!!!!!!!!! it's making me http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/firey.gif and i want to :smash: you every time i see it.
By the Way I Can USe MY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As Much as I WANT! BEcause I"m ME & U're U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO THERE! GET IT TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! :)

thelittlestelf
Oct 2nd, 2004, 03:56 AM
By the Way I Can USe MY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As Much as I WANT! BEcause I"m ME & U're U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO THERE! GET IT TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! :) You aren't quoting correctly, you put most of your post as my quote :).

Anyway, the player was Mikaelan and although she isn't a great player, Venus served very well, had very few errors, hit her forehand extremely well, returned extremely well, and did everything extremely well.

It wasn't so much Mikaelan's bad play as it was Venus' great play that decided the outcome of the match http://wtaworld.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Enjoy your !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and togetherness.

cheo23
Oct 2nd, 2004, 04:01 AM
You aren't quoting correctly, you put most of your post as my quote :).

Anyway, the player was Mikaelan and although she isn't a great player, Venus served very well, had very few errors, hit her forehand extremely well, returned extremely well, and did everything extremely well.

It wasn't so much Mikaelan's bad play as it was Venus' great play that decided the outcome of the match http://wtaworld.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Enjoy your !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and togetherness.
I'm still kind of an amateur here with only postin about 320 posts..I'm stillin learnin.lol..yeah I couldn't spell her name..so I just said she's Not a good Mover! LOL..but Yeah Mikaelan she's a good player..but nothing like the Top Players..I just Feel Venus Needs to Committ More to Tennis..Be More Passionate like when she won her 1st Grand Slam in 2000..U know? :)