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barmaid
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:23 PM
This is an excerpt from an Australian Tennis magazine, October 2004 where they questioned Martina Hingis about her life now and her life when she played tennis. Here is her answer to the following question:


During your career, you played and best several all-time greats. In what
order would you rate the five best players you completed against?

Serena, Venus, Lindsay, Monica and Jennifer. Serena had tremendous power.
She didn't have much feel. But she does'nt need touch when she's serving
aces all the times. She also has great (service) returns. Graf wasn't on my
list because I didn't play her that much. But maybe I should put her in
there somewhere.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I think so, Graf did have a 7-2 record against Martina!:cool:


barmaid:wavey:

lizchris
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:34 PM
I'm surprised that she put the Williams sisters one and two on her list.:eek:

WhatTheDeuce
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:35 PM
I'm surprised that she put the Williams sisters one and two on her list.:eek:
Why? :confused:

lizchris
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Why? :confused:
I am not surprised about Serena being number one (as she has a winning record against Hingis), but I thought she would have put Lindsay or Jennifer over Venus.

barmaid
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:42 PM
Of the five mentioned...only Serena and Lindsay have a winning record against Hingis..I don't know the exact numbers..maybe 7-6 for Serena and 8-6 for Lindsay...somebody will know:confused:



barmaid:wavey:

faboozadoo15
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM
pretty interesting that she indeed does have venus over lindsay and jenn, but she knows what it must have taken to beat any of those players on any given day, and maybe she thinks that her wins over venus came more difficultly perhaps. jenn did have her number for a while, and she had such a great rivalry with lindsay.

:eek: about monica being on there... maybe she was just being nice, or maybe she realizes that when she caught monica when she was playing well, it was very tough. who knows?

no doubt about it, steffi should be on there. they played 9 times. how many more times did she plays serena and jenn? just curious. i am pretty sure she played venus 19 times and monica 20-22 times.

DaNieLa RoCkZ
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM
What does she mean that Serena doesnt have touch! She has both power and touch which makes her the player she is... i dont know what she is thinking just cuz she doesnt go come to the net or hit drop shots all the time doesnt mean she doesnt have touch....

Crazy_Fool
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Surprised she put Monica there considering her record against her.

I thought LD was 14-10 up on Hingis, but not 100%

Cam'ron Giles
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:45 PM
Liz, you really must be driving some of these people crazy...they question everything you say...:lol:

Robbie.
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:46 PM
A few suprises there.

It's suprising that she has Venus above Lindsay, seeing as when she was playing she always said that she preferred to play Venus over either Serena or Lindsay and Venus never dominated her the way Lindsay did. Remember the "I Hate playing you" confession after Aus Open '00? Lindsay should definitely be above Venus.

I'm also a little suprised she has Monica who she always dominated when on top of her game above Jennifer who she lost 4 straight matches to, who cost her 2, arguably 3 GS titles and who really put the nail in her coffin as the best player in the world.

Just from reading the h2h's and what she said during her career;

Steffi, Serena, Lindsay, Venus, Jennifer, Monica

would seem to be a better order.

Maybe she's ranking them on "achievements" during her career? :scratch:

Atleast this order should shut up some people who thinks she hates the Williams' and doesn't give them credit :rolleyes:

Crazy_Fool
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:46 PM
What does she mean that Serena doesnt have touch! She has both power and touch which makes her the player she is... i dont know what she is thinking just cuz she doesnt go come to the net or hit drop shots all the time doesnt mean she doesnt have touch....
Serena's game is certainly not about touch, there are players out there with much more touch than Serena. Where she is has nothing to do with touch at all.

Mase
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:47 PM
I know she and Jen were tied 5 all in their head to head.

Martian Willow
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Liz, you really must be driving some of these people crazy...they question everything you say...:lol:

To engage lizchris in conversation is a form of entertainment.

Mase
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Per Wtatour.com

Davey 14 Hingis 10
This is odd.... Seles 5 Hingis 15 :eek::confused:
Serena 7 Hingis 6
Hingis 10 Venus 9

Stamp Paid
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:52 PM
A few suprises there.

It's suprising that she has Venus above Lindsay, seeing as when she was playing she always said that she preferred to play Venus over either Serena or Lindsay and Venus never dominated her the way Lindsay did. Remember the "I Hate playing you" confession after Aus Open '00? Lindsay should definitely be above Venus.

I'm also a little suprised she has Monica who she always dominated when on top of her game above Jennifer who she lost 4 straight matches to, who cost her 2, arguably 3 GS titles and who really put the nail in her coffin as the best player in the world.

Just from reading the h2h's and what she said during her career;

Steffi, Serena, Lindsay, Venus, Jennifer, Monica

would seem to be a better order.

Maybe she's ranking them on "achievements" during her career? :scratch:

Atleast this order should shut up some people who thinks she hates the Williams' and doesn't give them credit :rolleyes:
How the hell are you gonna tell Martina who it was harder for her to compete against?

Yes, and I knew her #1 would be Serena. Martina could not easily make Serena look like the dumb athlete. ;)

lizchris
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:54 PM
Liz, you really must be driving some of these people crazy...they question everything you say...:lol:

I drive everybody on this board who is not that bright crazy.;) Crazy with the truth.:lol:

Joana
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:57 PM
I drive everybody on this board who is not that bright crazy.;) Crazy with the truth.:lol:
You go, girl! :banana:

Martian Willow
Sep 29th, 2004, 09:59 PM
I drive everybody on this board who is not that bright crazy.;) Crazy with the truth.:lol:

:wazzup:

VW#1
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:05 PM
I don't know why you guys are surprised that Venus is higher than Lindsay and Jennifer. I'm actually surprised Venus isn't over Serena, because in almost all the matches they had, the match was always on Venus' racket and Martina knew that. She could frustrate Serena with her spins, she could outhit Monica and Jennifer for most of the time she played them (only at the end did Jennifer get fit) and with Lindsay, if Martina could move the ball around she felt the she had a chance. Venus's problem with Martina was always mental, and after a while she got over it and Martina knew there wasn't much she could do. In their last match at the 2002 Hamburg Semi Finals, Martina lost to Venus 6-3, 7-5, and she said something to the effect of I know the story hit to her forehand and a few other things but it just didn't work. I think Venus' rivalry with Martina was a lot more emotional than any of the other girls including Serena. I bet it was insanely ironic to Martina to play Venus when Venus was ranked number on in the world considering Martina once said Venus would only be number one once she retired.

Stamp Paid
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:17 PM
I don't know why you guys are surprised that Venus is higher than Lindsay and Jennifer. I'm actually surprised Venus isn't over Serena, because in almost all the matches they had, the match was always on Venus' racket and Martina knew that. She could frustrate Serena with her spins, she could outhit Monica and Jennifer for most of the time she played them (only at the end did Jennifer get fit) and with Lindsay, if Martina could move the ball around she felt the she had a chance. Venus's problem with Martina was always mental, and after a while she got over it and Martina knew there wasn't much she could do. In their last match at the 2002 Hamburg Semi Finals, Martina lost to Venus 6-3, 7-5, and she said something to the effect of I know the story hit to her forehand and a few other things but it just didn't work. I think Venus' rivalry with Martina was a lot more emotional than any of the other girls including Serena. I bet it was insanely ironic to Martina to play Venus when Venus was ranked number on in the world considering Martina once said Venus would only be number one once she retired.
1.) Serena had the bigger serve advantage
2.) Martina could outsmart Venus, or at least felt she could, easier than Serena

Mercredi
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Against Graf there was no competition she lost all the time (2-7.)

Knizzle
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:25 PM
How the hell are you gonna tell Martina who it was harder for her to compete against?

Yes, and I knew her #1 would be Serena. Martina could not easily make Serena look like the dumb athlete. ;)
You are taking all the words right out of my mouth, I don't have to post these days with you around.

Knizzle
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:26 PM
1.) Serena had the bigger serve advantage
2.) Martina could outsmart Venus, or at least felt she could, easier than Serena
I think the biggest difference to Hingis between the sisters was that she has absolutely no idea where Serena's serves were going, but she could read Venus' better.

Billabong
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:36 PM
I know she and Jen were tied 5 all in their head to head.

wasn't it 5-4 for Hingis;)? I think Jennifer's win in the 2000 Millenium Cup wasn't a in real WTA event, so it doesn't count in the H2H...

Billabong
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:39 PM
I think the biggest difference to Hingis between the sisters was that she has absolutely no idea where Serena's serves were going, but she could read Venus' better.

Yep definitely... she even said it at the 2001 US Open, when Serena played her best match I've ever seen from her... wasn't she 100% 1st serve pts won in the second set??

Billabong
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Against Graf there was no competition she lost all the time (2-7.)

yeah but most of their matches were before 1997, when Martina still wasn't at the top of her game (except of course for the 1999 FO)... but against Serena, Lindsay, Venus and Monica, she was at the top, so that makes a difference I think...

Mase
Sep 29th, 2004, 10:45 PM
wasn't it 5-4 for Hingis;)? I think Jennifer's win in the 2000 Millenium Cup wasn't a in real WTA event, so it doesn't count in the H2H...
Gotcha, well then yeah 5-4 Martina.

spencercarlos
Sep 29th, 2004, 11:19 PM
yeah but most of their matches were before 1997, when Martina still wasn't at the top of her game (except of course for the 1999 FO)... but against Serena, Lindsay, Venus and Monica, she was at the top, so that makes a difference I think...
They also played a five setter in the 96 Masters. They played 9 times, the same number of times she played Jennifer. Probably she does not mention Steffi because she does not wants to remmeber those loses, especially the Roland Garros one, that kept Martina without one of the 4 biggies. Also have to add that :

Graf bageled and spanked Hingis 6-3 4-6 6-0 at Philly 98, during Hingis *cough cough* prime. Not to mention 99 Roland Garros, while this NOT BEING Steffi`s best at all.

Kart
Sep 29th, 2004, 11:25 PM
Surprised she put Monica there considering her record against her.

That's probably the reason ;).

bandabou
Sep 29th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Funny how match-ups work out....and thatīs why itīs foolish of people to say that the sisters play the same way. Serena was a bad match-up for Hingis, just because of the serve to begin with....if Serenaīs having one of those days that her serve is on, then itīs good night for Martina and pretty much everybody...plus Serena wasnīt a rallier...she looked to hit the winner as soon as possible, whereas Venus was lulled to go rallying with Martina...and that wasnīt always a good idea.

moon
Sep 30th, 2004, 12:27 AM
I don't know why anyone was surprised that she had Vee as #2. Her record against Venus was 10-9, but most of those wins came before USO 99. once Venus actually started playing smarter not relying totally on power she basically took over the head to head.

Billabong
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:01 AM
They also played a five setter in the 96 Masters. They played 9 times, the same number of times she played Jennifer. Probably she does not mention Steffi because she does not wants to remmeber those loses, especially the Roland Garros one, that kept Martina without one of the 4 biggies. Also have to add that :

Graf bageled and spanked Hingis 6-3 4-6 6-0 at Philly 98, during Hingis *cough cough* prime. Not to mention 99 Roland Garros, while this NOT BEING Steffi`s best at all.

Re-read what I said:retard:! MOST of the times they played were before 1997;)!

dreamgoddess099
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:09 AM
Against Graf there was no competition she lost all the time (2-7.)

According to Hingis, she didn't play Graf that much
Graf wasn't on my
list because I didn't play her that much. But maybe I should put her in
there somewhere.She must only remember the matches that she wins. :lol:

sabandborg
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:21 AM
I'm shocked Hingis gave V&S any credit! Retirement has certainly improved her disposition.

She could've saved herself some heartache by retiring before the Graf fiasco.

anabel
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:38 AM
Surprised she took Seles over Pierce, since Martina has more wins over Monica than Mary and has lost 1 more time against Pierce than against Seles.

Billabong
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:40 AM
I'm shocked Hingis gave V&S any credit! Retirement has certainly improved her disposition.

She could've saved herself some heartache by retiring before the Graf fiasco.

:rolleyes: :tape:

vettipooh
Sep 30th, 2004, 02:37 AM
I don't know why anyone was surprised that she had Vee as #2. Her record against Venus was 10-9, but most of those wins came before USO 99. once Venus actually started playing smarter not relying totally on power she basically took over the head to head. So true. Once Venus figured how to win against Hingis, it wasn't easy for Hingis. Venus frustrated her because she thought she had Vee's number there for a while. Then the tables were turned.Venus aquired the mental stregth and ability to beat her and their matches were always hard fought and close.She retired cleverely...not giving any more players any chance to have a winning record against her. My feeling is, had she played for one more year, Vee would have owned her.;)

Robbie.
Sep 30th, 2004, 03:33 AM
How the hell are you gonna tell Martina who it was harder for her to compete against?

Yes, and I knew her #1 would be Serena. Martina could not easily make Serena look like the dumb athlete. ;)
I'm not telling Martina anything. It's just that this ranking is completely inconsistent with what she said DURING her career. During her career she always said Serena and Lindsay were her toughest opponents.

Knizzle
Sep 30th, 2004, 03:39 AM
I'm not telling Martina anything. It's just that this ranking is completely inconsistent with what she said DURING her career. During her career she always said Serena and Lindsay were her toughest opponents.
She also said Venus pushed her like no one else did.

Stefwhit
Sep 30th, 2004, 03:51 AM
Venus may have pushed her, but Steffi dominated her. She may have forgotten getting schooled but I remember it like it was yesterday... the good ol' dayz...

LDVTennis
Sep 30th, 2004, 04:08 AM
Venus may have pushed her, but Steffi dominated her. She may have forgotten getting schooled but I remember it like it was yesterday... the good ol' dayz...

If the question were asked of Steffi, one would imagine that Hingis' name wouldn't even come close to making the list.

Another Martina would probably be at the top of the list - Martina N., followed I think by Gaby, ASV, Lindsay, and Amanda.

Hingis hardly troubled Graf as much as Amanda did.

So, it would be no omission on Graf's part to leave out Hingis.

But, is anyone really surprised with Hingis' low regard of Graf? Hingis never respected Graf while they were still competing against each other. Why should she have any more respect for her now?

It would behoove Hingis to remember, however, that she is now being judged by a different group of champions. And, among that group, Graf is more or less regarded as the greatest of them all.

switz
Sep 30th, 2004, 05:09 AM
What does she mean that Serena doesnt have touch! She has both power and touch which makes her the player she is... i dont know what she is thinking just cuz she doesnt go come to the net or hit drop shots all the time doesnt mean she doesnt have touch....

i knew as soon as i read that somebody like you would choose to focus on that instead of the overwhelming positive comments. serena is the best player, but she is not up there when it comes to having touch. her lack of touch yet persistance in trying to show she does was the reason IMO that she lost to Henin at RG 03.

Stamp Paid
Sep 30th, 2004, 05:20 AM
i knew as soon as i read that somebody like you would choose to focus on that instead of the overwhelming positive comments. serena is the best player, but she is not up there when it comes to having touch. her lack of touch yet persistance in trying to show she does was the reason IMO that she lost to Henin at RG 03.
Thats a fair observation. I agree.

LDVTennis
Sep 30th, 2004, 10:14 AM
i knew as soon as i read that somebody like you would choose to focus on that instead of the overwhelming positive comments. serena is the best player, but she is not up there when it comes to having touch. her lack of touch yet persistance in trying to show she does was the reason IMO that she lost to Henin at RG 03.

Exactly.

Cleary, some people need a definition of touch.

Touch means that you can execute a particular set of shots, not just once in a career, but consistently and typically as part of some overall style of play or strategy. That set of shots includes: drop shots from both sides, half volleys from both sides, bunt backhands, the short slice backhand, the chip lob, the topspin lob, the roll forehand from inside the service box, the slice or topspin backhand from the same position, the chip return up the line, the slice forehand, .... Some volleys also qualify as touch shots, but I will leave those out of the discussion for now.

How many of these shots does Serena consistently hit. None.

How can that be?

Off the backhand side, she can't control her racquet face well enough with one hand to produce slice, let alone the other kinds of shots attributed to the backhand above.

She has the same trouble controlling the racquet face on the forehand side. She'd have a much better forehand if she didn't have that trouble. Without that control, one can't really hope to consisently hit some of the shots attributed to the forehand above.

Of all the shots mentioned above, she does from time to time attempt and complete a drop shot, usually from the forehand side. The results of doing so are often mixed. Most turn out to be small lobs over the net. Even worse, she telegraphs them, making them much easier to track down.

Being a power player doesn't necessarily make one incapable of hitting the touch shots. Best example of that would be Steffi Graf. Another good example of that would be Roger Federer. What both Steffi and Roger have in common with Hingis (a touch player without much power) is the unique ability to control the face of the racquet through the point of contact. Steffi and Roger were/are unlimited in their ability to do so. Hingis could only do so with balls that were not hit particularly hard.

Serena has never displayed that ability at all. She generates most of her power on groundstrokes from the contraction of her arm muscles and torso rotation and not great racquet speed (pure swing). At the point of contact, her wrist loses almost all of its strength or flexibility. Hence, the trouble with the forehand which would be a better shot if she had the ability to finesse the ball with her wrist at the point of contact. Too often on the forehand, she closes the racquet face too soon or it remains too open through the point of contact, allowing the ball to literally slide down the face of her racquet.

I could have put the forehand drive on the list above because in a very special sense it is also a touch shot. The very best forehands have one thing in common the ability to control the racquet face, to open or close the face of the racquet with just the right timing, to change the angle of the racquet face with respect to the ball all within a split second.

One day, some smart tennis commentator will reach the conclusion that all the truly great players have or had great forehands, and that that stroke alone is what often makes the difference. The evidence is certainly mounting: Sampras, Graf, Federer. How about this for another coincidence? All happened to have great slice backhands as well.

bandabou
Sep 30th, 2004, 10:42 AM
But they never said that there was only one way to play tennis....to each their own. People may not like it, but the results can NOT be denied.

Ryan
Sep 30th, 2004, 10:46 AM
*yawn* MAYBE when Hingis was listing these names, she WASNT listing them in order. Maybe she just picked the names (although they'd all be in her top 5) randomly.

rjd1111
Sep 30th, 2004, 11:35 AM
I'm surprised that she put the Williams sisters one and two on her list.:eek:


Why not. They Ran her out of Tennis.

Rub
Sep 30th, 2004, 11:50 AM
monica should not be on the list!

Paneru
Sep 30th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Why not. They Ran her out of Tennis.

I though it was injury that did that?

I think with Venus and Martina,
Martina dominated Venus early on because as
commentators have said, Venus played one way,
all or nothing! Martina was able to think ahead and anticipate
Venus and Venus could do nothing with it and would just try and power
her way through Martina.

As Venus got a little older and wiser about the game and her game
she could use more of her game and not only power to outplay and
outsmart with power and percision Martina.

I definitely think the matches between them were
more of a mental game than anything else which is why
I found their matches so exciting and I do miss that match-up.

Mercredi
Sep 30th, 2004, 12:58 PM
yeah but most of their matches were before 1997, when Martina still wasn't at the top of her game (except of course for the 1999 FO)... but against Serena, Lindsay, Venus and Monica, she was at the top, so that makes a difference I think...
Flase, look at the head to head!

1995 PARIS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 6-2 6-3
1995 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R128 S. GRAF 6-3 6-1
1996 ITALIAN OPEN CLAY (O) Q M. HINGIS 2-6 6-2 6-3
1996 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-1 6-4
1996 US OPEN HARD (O) S S. GRAF 7-5 6-3
1996 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0
1997 PAN PACIFIC CARPET (I) F M. HINGIS W/O donsn't count.
1998 PHILADELPHIA CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 6-2 4-6 6-0
1999 PAN PACIFIC CARPET (I) Q M. HINGIS 3-6 6-2 6-4
1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 4-6 7-5 6-2

As you see they played as much before and after 97.
And in 96, Hingis was in the top5 already.

SJW
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:46 PM
let the girl have her own opinion :o she has listed 5 of the best players of this generation, maybe she should have had Steffi in there but you can't exactly tell Martina her list is wrong :o

SerenaSlam
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:51 PM
i think the reason why she has both sisters up there is b/c she knew really and honestly on any given day, they could wipe her off the court, and just knowing that it adds to the "how are they gonna play factor" you never knew what you were gonna get, and you could very well get blown off the court, or be there for hours watching tons of errors followed by amazing winners.

moby
Sep 30th, 2004, 01:57 PM
the thread title is incorrect
they didn't ask martina who she thought were toughest for her to play
But the greatest players she played (hence the order)
and since she only played steffi 4 times in her (martina's) prime, she probably didn't think that there was a real rivalry going on, and didn't list steffi?

Experimentee
Sep 30th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Saying the Williams sisters were her toughest opponents doesnt mean she likes them, as some people are trying to say. In fact, if they were the biggest challneges it would be reason to not like them.

Knizzle
Sep 30th, 2004, 03:51 PM
Exactly.

Cleary, some people need a definition of touch.

Touch means that you can execute a particular set of shots, not just once in a career, but consistently and typically as part of some overall style of play or strategy. That set of shots includes: drop shots from both sides, half volleys from both sides, bunt backhands, the short slice backhand, the chip lob, the topspin lob, the roll forehand from inside the service box, the slice or topspin backhand from the same position, the chip return up the line, the slice forehand, .... Some volleys also qualify as touch shots, but I will leave those out of the discussion for now.

How many of these shots does Serena consistently hit. None.

How can that be?

Off the backhand side, she can't control her racquet face well enough with one hand to produce slice, let alone the other kinds of shots attributed to the backhand above.

She has the same trouble controlling the racquet face on the forehand side. She'd have a much better forehand if she didn't have that trouble. Without that control, one can't really hope to consisently hit some of the shots attributed to the forehand above.

Of all the shots mentioned above, she does from time to time attempt and complete a drop shot, usually from the forehand side. The results of doing so are often mixed. Most turn out to be small lobs over the net. Even worse, she telegraphs them, making them much easier to track down.

Being a power player doesn't necessarily make one incapable of hitting the touch shots. Best example of that would be Steffi Graf. Another good example of that would be Roger Federer. What both Steffi and Roger have in common with Hingis (a touch player without much power) is the unique ability to control the face of the racquet through the point of contact. Steffi and Roger were/are unlimited in their ability to do so. Hingis could only do so with balls that were not hit particularly hard.

Serena has never displayed that ability at all. She generates most of her power on groundstrokes from the contraction of her arm muscles and torso rotation and not great racquet speed (pure swing). At the point of contact, her wrist loses almost all of its strength or flexibility. Hence, the trouble with the forehand which would be a better shot if she had the ability to finesse the ball with her wrist at the point of contact. Too often on the forehand, she closes the racquet face too soon or it remains too open through the point of contact, allowing the ball to literally slide down the face of her racquet.

I could have put the forehand drive on the list above because in a very special sense it is also a touch shot. The very best forehands have one thing in common the ability to control the racquet face, to open or close the face of the racquet with just the right timing, to change the angle of the racquet face with respect to the ball all within a split second.

One day, some smart tennis commentator will reach the conclusion that all the truly great players have or had great forehands, and that that stroke alone is what often makes the difference. The evidence is certainly mounting: Sampras, Graf, Federer. How about this for another coincidence? All happened to have great slice backhands as well.
So Serena is not truly great just because she doesn't have enough touch in her game. You actually think Graf's touch propelled her to 22 GS titles??

Billabong
Sep 30th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Flase, look at the head to head!

1995 PARIS CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 6-2 6-3
1995 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R128 S. GRAF 6-3 6-1
1996 ITALIAN OPEN CLAY (O) Q M. HINGIS 2-6 6-2 6-3
1996 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) R16 S. GRAF 6-1 6-4
1996 US OPEN HARD (O) S S. GRAF 7-5 6-3
1996 CHASE CHAMPIONSHIPS CARPET (I) F S. GRAF 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0
1997 PAN PACIFIC CARPET (I) F M. HINGIS W/O donsn't count.
1998 PHILADELPHIA CARPET (I) Q S. GRAF 6-2 4-6 6-0
1999 PAN PACIFIC CARPET (I) Q M. HINGIS 3-6 6-2 6-4
1999 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 4-6 7-5 6-2

As you see they played as much before and after 97.
And in 96, Hingis was in the top5 already.sorry but 6 times is more than 3 times :o ;).. I don't know what is your point.. I was comparing the matches of Steffi against Hingis and the matches of Venus/Serena against Hingis, and I still think Venus/Serena played Martina when she was at her very best..

That being said, Martina played Venus 19 times and Serena 13 times when she was at her best, so I understand why she picked them at 1 and 2.. same for Lindsay!

moby
Sep 30th, 2004, 05:41 PM
If the question were asked of Steffi, one would imagine that Hingis' name wouldn't even come close to making the list.

Another Martina would probably be at the top of the list - Martina N., followed I think by Gaby, ASV, Lindsay, and Amanda.

Hingis hardly troubled Graf as much as Amanda did.

So, it would be no omission on Graf's part to leave out Hingis.

But, is anyone really surprised with Hingis' low regard of Graf? Hingis never respected Graf while they were still competing against each other. Why should she have any more respect for her now?
in any case, martina's brief mention of steffi is probably better than your blatant exclusion of monica. But then, what do I know?

faboozadoo15
Sep 30th, 2004, 08:45 PM
in any case, martina's brief mention of steffi is probably better than your blatant exclusion of monica. But then, what do I know?
noticed that too. surely steffi, even if she REALLY took herself so far away from tennis, she would still remember monica as one of her toughest opponents. surely tougher than gaby, asv, lindsay, and amanda. i'll give her martina as possibly tougher than monica, but that's only because steffi played martina a bit wheile she was still in her prime.

Calimero377
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Re-read what I said:retard:! MOST of the times they played were before 1997;)!


She lost to Graf at USO 96 and at Chase Champs 96 - within 6 months before she reached the #1 spot (March 1997). So these losses are legit, don't you think?

They played 3 times in 98/99.
Graf bageled Hingis in Philadelphia in 3rd set.
Graf literally destroyed Hingis at FO 99.
Hingis won in Tokyo 99. 6-4 in 3rd set. Graf lead 4-2, injured herself and didn't win another game.

I understand that Hingis doesn't want to remember her Graf matches.
The same Graf that was "too old" in summer 1998, because it had become "a more athletic game" by then ......

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Calimero377
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Venus may have pushed her, but Steffi dominated her. She may have forgotten getting schooled but I remember it like it was yesterday... the good ol' dayz...


Don't forget:
That FO 99 final was voted "greatest match ever" (open era) by fans in a WTA poll last year ....

:worship: :worship: :worship:

~Cherry*Blossom~
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:40 PM
A few suprises there.

It's suprising that she has Venus above Lindsay, seeing as when she was playing she always said that she preferred to play Venus over either Serena or Lindsay and Venus never dominated her the way Lindsay did. Remember the "I Hate playing you" confession after Aus Open '00? Lindsay should definitely be above Venus.

I'm also a little suprised she has Monica who she always dominated when on top of her game above Jennifer who she lost 4 straight matches to, who cost her 2, arguably 3 GS titles and who really put the nail in her coffin as the best player in the world.

Just from reading the h2h's and what she said during her career;

Steffi, Serena, Lindsay, Venus, Jennifer, Monica

would seem to be a better order.

Maybe she's ranking them on "achievements" during her career? :scratch:

Atleast this order should shut up some people who thinks she hates the Williams' and doesn't give them credit :rolleyes:

Please explain, I never heard of this before (I never really used to pay attention to the Oz Open b4 2001)

lindsayno1
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:43 PM
i agree with teh lindsay comment!

DA FOREHAND
Sep 30th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Exactly.

Cleary, some people need a definition of touch.

Touch means that you can execute a particular set of shots, not just once in a career, but consistently and typically as part of some overall style of play or strategy. That set of shots includes: drop shots from both sides, half volleys from both sides, bunt backhands, the short slice backhand, the chip lob, the topspin lob, the roll forehand from inside the service box, the slice or topspin backhand from the same position, the chip return up the line, the slice forehand, .... Some volleys also qualify as touch shots, but I will leave those out of the discussion for now.

How many of these shots does Serena consistently hit. None.

How can that be?

Off the backhand side, she can't control her racquet face well enough with one hand to produce slice, let alone the other kinds of shots attributed to the backhand above.

She has the same trouble controlling the racquet face on the forehand side. She'd have a much better forehand if she didn't have that trouble. Without that control, one can't really hope to consisently hit some of the shots attributed to the forehand above.

Of all the shots mentioned above, she does from time to time attempt and complete a drop shot, usually from the forehand side. The results of doing so are often mixed. Most turn out to be small lobs over the net. Even worse, she telegraphs them, making them much easier to track down.

Being a power player doesn't necessarily make one incapable of hitting the touch shots. Best example of that would be Steffi Graf. Another good example of that would be Roger Federer. What both Steffi and Roger have in common with Hingis (a touch player without much power) is the unique ability to control the face of the racquet through the point of contact. Steffi and Roger were/are unlimited in their ability to do so. Hingis could only do so with balls that were not hit particularly hard.

Serena has never displayed that ability at all. She generates most of her power on groundstrokes from the contraction of her arm muscles and torso rotation and not great racquet speed (pure swing). At the point of contact, her wrist loses almost all of its strength or flexibility. Hence, the trouble with the forehand which would be a better shot if she had the ability to finesse the ball with her wrist at the point of contact. Too often on the forehand, she closes the racquet face too soon or it remains too open through the point of contact, allowing the ball to literally slide down the face of her racquet.

I could have put the forehand drive on the list above because in a very special sense it is also a touch shot. The very best forehands have one thing in common the ability to control the racquet face, to open or close the face of the racquet with just the right timing, to change the angle of the racquet face with respect to the ball all within a split second.

One day, some smart tennis commentator will reach the conclusion that all the truly great players have or had great forehands, and that that stroke alone is what often makes the difference. The evidence is certainly mounting: Sampras, Graf, Federer. How about this for another coincidence? All happened to have great slice backhands as well.


99 Us Open final...Watch that match and you will see Serena not only overpowering HIngis, but also out finnessing her w/rolled forehands.That said they don't call Serena the Sledgehammer for nothing.

Here's my list of Martina's toughest opponents.

Stiffi Graf - Martina never quite figured out how to consistantly beat her

Lindsay Davenport- Controlled the center of the court against Hingis better than anyone else

Serena Williams - Had the game to beat Hingis from the time of thier first encounter through retirement.

Venus Williams- After she matured the matches were hers to win or lose.

Jennifer Capriati- The only player Jenn. seems to really go for her shots against. ie not hitting safely towards the middle of the court.

Hon. Mention

Monica Seles- Unfortunately Monica had to be at the top of her game to trouble Martina. Martina's game seems to have been built to diffuse Monica's.

Knizzle
Sep 30th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Please explain, I never heard of this before (I never really used to pay attention to the Oz Open b4 2001)
Lindsay destroyed her in the OZ final 6-1, 7-5 which was close to being 6-1, 6-1 in about 40 something minutes because If I'm not mistaken LD was up 6-1, 5-1 30-15 and then tightened up letting Hingis into the second set. After the match Martina told LD "I hate playing you" She said it in jest, but I'm sure she meant it half-heartedly.