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harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:51 AM
Excerpts from Wertheim Tennis Mailbag:

Let's start by dispensing praise to both the U.S. and Spanish Davis Cup teams that will play for the chalice the first week of December. The Yanks had no trouble with Belarus, and Spain beat France. For the whole rundown, including more British heartache, check out the Davis Cup Web site.

At the WTA's China Open event in Beijing, Serena Williams won her first title since taking the Nasdaq-100 Open title in March, beating Svetlana Kuznetsova in a hotly-contested final. Serena not only saved two match points but stopped Kuznetsova from winning her third straight title. It marked Serena's 25th title. In the doubles, Emmanuelle Gagliardi and Dinara Safina beat Gisela Dulko and Maria Vento-Kabchi. In a rare mixed doubles event, Tripp Phillips and Gagliardi beat Justin Gimelstob and Jill Craybas.


As many of you have inferred, we generally hold Serena in high regard. But could someone please impress upon her how tiresome (and insufferably arrogant) her "I played poorly" routine has become? After saving multiple match points Sunday to beat the hottest player on Tour, Serena remarked: "I just played crazy ... It's kind of encouraging that I was able to win when I wasn't playing my best today.'' New rule (nod to Bill Maher): Either play your best for once, or stop pouring salt on your opponents' wounds by beating them and ungraciously noting how lousily you performed. Enough already.

treiber04
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:57 AM
Last time I read his predictions. :)

Mr_Molik
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:58 AM
i agree with him

martirogi
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:04 AM
she is classy in some ways, but this routine is def annoying and rude, no one can play their best in every match so she needs to accept that

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:05 AM
and rena's fans always claim that she's so classy :rolleyes:
Serena is indeed classy unlike the cheating Henin-Hardenne.

For the most part every player in some capacity are critical of their play. However we will never hear Weirthless, or the detractors(such as yourself) criticize others for saying they did not play their best.

Peace:lol:

jacobruiz
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:06 AM
Well I basically agree but he doesn't have to be so mean about it.

shap_half
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:06 AM
I agree with him. Serena always does this and people (have been) are getting fed up.

Mase
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:10 AM
I agree as well.. Let the players have some credit, whats ironic with her is she'll do the PR thing and give them credit and then end a interview with a comment like that, which obviously contradicts everything she said BEFORE that comment. Its definitely getting old.

vettipooh
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:11 AM
I don't hear him attacking a certain someone consistently using the tired and annoying response "I'm only 17!" :rolleyes:

Mase
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:12 AM
I don't hear him attacking a certain someone consistently using the tired and annoying response "I'm only 17!" :rolleyes:
The Media says that more than she does.

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:13 AM
I agree with him. Serena always does this and people (have been) are getting fed up.
I find it strange that little is said when others claim they did not play well. Although, I will say that sometimes Serena does put 2 on the 10 when talking about her game I just don't understand how everyone else is excused?:lol:

I really think it proves the point that the sisters are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. :rolleyes:

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:15 AM
The Media says that more than she does.
good excuse!

fammmmedspin
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:15 AM
Frankly having watched the match Sveta would be more justified in saying that she would have won at something just a bit nearer her best - her best was better than Serena's for much of the second set and if she had been able to sustain her level and avoid a few key errors Sveta was a clear winner in two. It was Ok for serena to say it when she was the best player around but since her ranking (or her race position) now gives a pretty good idea of how well she can currently play its plain silly to keep on with the line. At some point she has to realise she no longer is the best and find out why and try and do something about it rather than just keep on repeating it. You can't rebuild a reputation based on hot air alone and expect players not to believe what they actually see and you can't convince yourself everything is fine when your forehand often looks like its having a love affair with the middle of the net.

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:17 AM
I never understood how Serena saying she played badly meant the other person wasn't good enough. If by Serena's own standards, she didn't play the way she wanted to or felt she could, who is someone not in her place and body to tell her any different?

tennischick
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:19 AM
he's right. deal with it.

shap_half
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:19 AM
I find it strange that little is said when others claim they did not play well. Although, I will say that sometimes Serena does put 2 on the 10 when talking about her game I just don't understand how everyone else is excused?:lol:

I really think it proves the point that the sisters are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. :rolleyes:


Why do you think it's Serena who's always under the light? Maybe because she's the one who does consistently and constantly. Serena can't seem to give her oppoenents any credit. It's been a while since she's said anyone actually beat her or that she's played well enough and was still challenged.

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Frankly having watched the match Sveta would be more justified in saying that she would have won at something just a bit nearer her best - her best was better than Serena's for much of the second set and if she had been able to sustain her level and avoid a few key errors Sveta was a clear winner in two. It was Ok for serena to say it when she was the best player around but since her ranking (or her race position) now gives a pretty good idea of how well she can currently play its plain silly to keep on with the line. At some point she has to realise she no longer is the best and find out why and try and do something about it rather than just keep on repeating it. You can't rebuild a reputation based on hot air alone and expect players not to believe what they actually see and you can't convince yourself everything is fine when your forehand often looks like its having a love affair with the middle of the net.
What reputation does Serena need to build when she is the winner of 6 slams and other big titles?

Serena is right about her level because it is defenitely down. If she want's to voice her opinion on how badly she played then she has a right too like every player on the WTA does but NOONE makes a stink about it at all.

For the most part, Serena gives her opponents credit and criticize her game for being down. Everything she says or does is deemed disrespectful or dishonest by certain people so she should continue to express herself intelligently.

I am tired of the double standards some people have on this issue.

faboozadoo15
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:21 AM
I don't hear him attacking a certain someone consistently using the tired and annoying response "I'm only 17!" :rolleyes:
that's not an excuse. that's the truth. by saying her age she's admitting that she needs to learn more about the game and gain more experience... wtf?

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:22 AM
Why do you think it's Serena who's always under the light? Maybe because she's the one who does consistently and constantly. Serena can't seem to give her oppoenents any credit. It's been a while since she's said anyone actually beat her or that she's played well enough and was still challenged.

So Serena is supposed to say, "so and so beat me"? That would make people happy?

She's not allowed to critique her own game considering it is her own game?

I read Serena giving the other person credit. It may not be Serena on her hands and knees bowing down to her victor or the person she beat, but if she says someone played well that's enough for me. I don't expect her to write poetry about an opponent. Don't see why she's expected to.

Emptiness
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:29 AM
Yes its very disrespectful to her opponents.
I think the reason why Serena gets so much slack for this is because she constantly uses this excuse. Whenever she loses its not because her opponent simply outplayed her its because she didn't play her best. Well she is human she can't play her best 24/7 and niether can the other players. This is very much a mentral game as is physical. No one expects her to kiss her opponent's feet but to give them a little credit would be very sportsmanship-like. She has every right to critique her own game but in the way in which she critiques detracts from her opponent's accomplishments.

Vettipooh, Maria is only 17. Serena is a grown woman. Using another player's actions to defend someone is a very poor defense.

rjd1111
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:37 AM
Frankly having watched the match Sveta would be more justified in saying that she would have won at something just a bit nearer her best - her best was better than Serena's for much of the second set and if she had been able to sustain her level and avoid a few key errors Sveta was a clear winner in two. It was Ok for serena to say it when she was the best player around but since her ranking (or her race position) now gives a pretty good idea of how well she can currently play its plain silly to keep on with the line. At some point she has to realise she no longer is the best and find out why and try and do something about it rather than just keep on repeating it. You can't rebuild a reputation based on hot air alone and expect players not to believe what they actually see and you can't convince yourself everything is fine when your forehand often looks like its having a love affair with the middle of the net.


From what I understand Kuzy's winning the first set was because of
Questionable calls against Serena.

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:39 AM
No one expects her to kiss her opponent's feet but to give them a little credit would be very sportsmanship-like.

Are you sure about the kissing her opponent's feet thing, because most would not even be satisfied if she did that.

And she does give her opponents credit in her interviews but that's something people overlook.

Vettipooh, Maria is only 17. Serena is a grown woman. Using another player's actions to defend someone is a very poor defense.
EXCUSES AGAIN

jacobruiz
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:40 AM
Yes but Serena does this after EVERY match! Whether she wins or loses! Come on! What would it hurt her or her reputation to once in a while say:

She was good but I tried my best and beat her.

OR even:

I tried my best but she was just better than me today.

Other players do say these kind of things, including Sharapova.

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:40 AM
So Serena is supposed to say, "so and so beat me"? That would make people happy?

She's not allowed to critique her own game considering it is her own game?

I read Serena giving the other person credit. It may not be Serena on her hands and knees bowing down to her victor or the person she beat, but if she says someone played well that's enough for me. I don't expect her to write poetry about an opponent. Don't see why she's expected to.
I don't see why she is expected to either when other's are not. :rolleyes:

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:42 AM
Beware anyone who wants you to be less honest so they can feel better about themselves.

If Serena follows this advice he'll be writing about how what a liar she is.

anabolix
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:45 AM
Have to agree with wertheim here. Serena used to do this to XS, Pity to hear it again, jjust when I thought she was getting more likeable, like her sis. These comments do her no credit, IMO.

I suppose its a psych thing...... "Even if I play crap and I can still beat u".

I know she has the perfectionist thing going on, but I think people would like her more if she left that on the court and was more gracious when she has a mike in front of her.

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:46 AM
Yes but Serena does this after EVERY match! Whether she wins or loses! Come on! What would it hurt her or her reputation to once in a while say:

She was good but I tried my best and beat her.

OR even:

I tried my best but she was just better than me today.

Other players do say these kind of things, including Sharapova.

If Serena either feels she didn't try her best or her best wasn't given should she still say it? Basically lie so people can sleep at night?

In her match against Jennifer some claimed that Jennifer deserved the win because she played better and Serena had too many unforced errors. In such a circumstance is Serena supposed to say in the interview Jennifer played better than me and that's the end of the story, or is she allowed to say she didn't play well enough to win (even though Serena gave Jen credit for the win regardless of the controversy that night).

This idea that Serena never gives her opponent credit is like a popular fad gone to generalization where the truth of the matter has gotten lost because it's just the thing to say that Serena and or Venus aren't gracious. Especially in the manner in which some want them to be.

rjd1111
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:48 AM
Yes its very disrespectful to her opponents.
I think the reason why Serena gets so much slack for this is because she constantly uses this excuse. Whenever she loses its not because her opponent simply outplayed her its because she didn't play her best. Well she is human she can't play her best 24/7 and niether can the other players. This is very much a mentral game as is physical. No one expects her to kiss her opponent's feet but to give them a little credit would be very sportsmanship-like. She has every right to critique her own game but in the way in which she critiques detracts from her opponent's accomplishments.

Vettipooh, Maria is only 17. Serena is a grown woman. Using another player's actions to defend someone is a very poor defense.

Whenever she loses It not because she was simply beaten. In very nearly every match I've seen her lose its been because of UFEs and Mistakes,
injury, and Lately Cheating. When She plays her best She Doesn't lose.
So what she says is true.

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:49 AM
I don't see why she is expected to either when other's are not. :rolleyes:

Exactly. I'll always trade Serena not being gracious enough to some people's standards to some of the actions of other players against Serean (and Venus) - especially ones she's supposed to be bowing down to.

tenn_ace
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:50 AM
for once he is speaking the truth...

Emptiness
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:53 AM
EXCUSES AGAINYes I agree Maria leans on the "I'm only 17" thing too often but she IS only 17 and not fully an adult and shouldn't have adult expectations placed upon her. But everyone knows Maria says this frequently. Many people bitch about it. They bitch about JHH being a cheater and liar, Jen for having no class, Momo and Kim for being huge chokers, Vera for her mental problems, Sesil for being ...Sesil. What would you like people to bitch about? What would satisfy you and convince you not everyone is out to tar and feather the Williams? That she should be responsible for her actions no matter what other players do or don't?

Fact of the matter is Serena often times is a detractor. :shrug:

I hope no one labels me a Serena-hater.

faboozadoo15
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:00 AM
When She plays her best She Doesn't lose.
So what she says is true.
if you knew anything about tennis you would know that what your opponent does directly affects how you are able to carry out your gameplan on court. :rolleyes:

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:03 AM
That she should be responsible for her actions no matter what other players do or don't?

Isn't this what Serena is doing when she talks about her own game? Being responsible for her actions on the court no matter what the person on the other side does or does not do?

Fact of the matter is Serena often times is a detractor. :shrug:

A matter of perception. A simple, "she played well" is fine for others and for some it seems a dissertation on the other player is what is satisfactory.

Dava
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:10 AM
I think Weirthiem is noting that Serena almost has the attitude that she can come out against any player hit 48 winners, and that be her best. NO PLAYER can play their best tennis 100% of the time, in any match, certainly not at this level, the players are too good to be able to let other players play their best game. So for example if Sveta was in the zone in this match at certain points, then I dont believe that Serena has the ability to play her best against Svetas best, just like Sveta doesnt have the ability to play her best against Serenas best.

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:23 AM
if you knew anything about tennis you would know that what your opponent does directly affects how you are able to carry out your gameplan on court. :rolleyes:

pure genius. plus the net, the size of the court, the sweet spot in the racquet, the weather, if you're JCap the location of the blimp and babies crying, if you're Novotna(or Kim) the proximity of a slam title. maybe even the state of your game.

sorry condescending wannabee genius. really weak stuff.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:31 AM
Patty Schynder on how false perceptions and being a closed minded detractor usually paint the wrong picture on and about Serena with their expectations:

I was surprised by Serena yesterday, what she told me at the net," Schnyder said. "I mean she was really nice and I was surprised. She was really looking into my eyes and saying, 'Yeah, you played a great match and I hope you're going to make it through to win the tournament.' That was really nice because she was not looking at me in the beginning (of the match). She was kind of arrogant. So I was really impresses with that sentence at the end."

I guess what Serena had to say to Patty personally is more than gracious and more than what is expected. But then again some of you here say she never says a nice word, never praises or says anything about the other player. Give me a break.

Dawn Marie
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:32 AM
If in Serena's "mental tennis mindeset" that she likes to state that she played poorly even when she won a match in two or three sets, then let her do it without other people's bitching. Serena does give credit to her opponents we all know this as we are tennis fans. Just get use to seeing Serena winning and shut up with the double standard stuff .. THAT IS WHAT IS GETTING OLD. So Werthim and those who agree with his statements are hyocrits. Hypocrits for thinking that Serena's comments "are getting old", when it is really your own upper lip that is old and your response to Serena that is old.

At the end of the day, Serena has 6 slams to back up her "mental tennis mindest" if this is what works for her then screw the rest of us and what we think is right.

Listen on up. Serena has won 6 slams and 25 titles. She is still young, nobody really is caring about how she comes off. That is way old news, let her add onto her wins and let us enjoy her going down in tennis history.

WhatTheDeuce
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:35 AM
Don't get me wrong, I like Serena, but Wertheim made a correct statement there.

pcrtennis
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:37 AM
I genuinely like Serena but I agree with Wertheim.

AjdeNate!
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:39 AM
Such drama.....

Dawn Marie
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:39 AM
His statement was his opinion, what is correct is the fact that Serena has 6 slams and just beat down 3 or 4 Russians to take her 25 title.


If she chooses to be anal about her game then hey more power to her cause you know what? It is WORKING FOR HER. And her fans. HAHAHAHAHAH.. whoooooooooooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Fearless Serena Williams won another title and she did it HERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRR WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYY!!!!:)

I know it pains some of you, but take this salt and pour it were it hurts even more.

Emptiness
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:44 AM
Isn't this what Serena is doing when she talks about her own game? Being responsible for her actions on the court no matter what the person on the other side does or does not do?You take my comments out of context. The main agrument i see here is why Serena should be expected to praise her opponents when you say others are not. I responded. I think she has every right to criticize her own game but to imply the only person who can beat her is herself is a bit arrogant. Can you really say that doesn't detract from her opponent's efforts? Even if she wasn't on her game her opponent didn't allow her to reclaim the match. Its not as if theres a ball machine across the net.

A matter of perception. A simple, "she played well" is fine for others and for some it seems a dissertation on the other player is what is satisfactory.I guess thats one thing we agree on. It is subjective but then again so is whether or not Serena played her best.

What the f.. actions are you talking about...saying that she play like crap. I bet you worthless writes that crap and comes on this board and it because he knows when he puts this shit on paper he will about 5-10 of threads to read and get his jollies off on.What? Hey when you've learnt how to compose simple sentance structures maybe then you'd be worth having a discussion with. :wavey:

Dawn Marie
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:48 AM
Fragrance who cares if Serena is arrogant. If it get's her 6 slams and her 25 title then so be it.

Let her opponents find their own way to win.


LMAO Serena wins a title and people lose their heads again.. OMG! I smell FEAR.... FEAR... FEARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrr.... hahhahah.. just in time for Halloween.:)

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:50 AM
You take my comments out of context. The main agrument i see here is why Serena should be expected to praise her opponents when you say others are not. I responded. I think she has every right to criticize her own game but to imply the only person who can beat her is herself is a bit arrogant. Can you really say that doesn't detract from her opponent's efforts? Even if she wasn't on her game her opponent didn't allow her to reclaim the match. Its not as if theres a ball machine across the net.

Actually you're arguing another argument possibly by another poster. Because I see Serena praising other players. However I don't care for or expect for her to go overboard with it. If she states the other person played well, that's good enough for me and like Serena, I'm more inclined to care about her game and want to hear her thoughts and know about it rather than the other person. The stuff about implying how one can beat Serena comes from people like you, not Serena. How one gets "I can only beat myself" from "I didn't play my best" seems to be a whole lot of filling in gaps that don't exist.

vogus
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:51 AM
Wertheim is right about this. Maybe Serena's opponents need to start saying they played terrible after every match, to help her get the point.

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:51 AM
All of you haters are a bunch of jealous bitches. You just can stand or accept Serenas achievement, wealth and fame and it's eating out all your guts so any little thing that you can bring to this board and redicule her on you will. Keep it up.

that can also be said of Justine haters, many of which are Rena fans.
why didn't you mention that?

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:56 AM
Patty Schynder on how false perceptions and being a closed minded detractor usually paint the wrong picture on and about Serena with their expectations:

I was surprised by Serena yesterday, what she told me at the net," Schnyder said. "I mean she was really nice and I was surprised. She was really looking into my eyes and saying, 'Yeah, you played a great match and I hope you're going to make it through to win the tournament.' That was really nice because she was not looking at me in the beginning (of the match). She was kind of arrogant. So I was really impresses with that sentence at the end."

I guess what Serena had to say to Patty personally is more than gracious and more than what is expected. But then again some of you here say she never says a nice word, never praises or says anything about the other player. Give me a break.


Wow :eek: Serena is never giving credit :rolleyes:

backhanddtl4
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:00 AM
Funny thing is, she's only playing the truth. When she loses, or has a bad score...usually it is because she wasn't playing her best.

pav
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:07 AM
ShitI just turned on during a quick coffee break, Christ albloody mighty some Serena fans are humourless one eyed son of a bitches aren't they? say one word slightly negative about Serena and whoever does it is called a hater, have to be bloody insecure to carry on like that, Young calves that are weaned too early carry on like that sometimes, go outside and kick a few old lots of cowshit over, it makes You feel better! no bullshit!

Jelena Moon
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Serena is indeed classy unlike the cheating Henin-Hardenne.

For the most part every player in some capacity are critical of their play. However we will never hear Weirthless, or the detractors(such as yourself) criticize others for saying they did not play their best.

Peace:lol:

please stop being jealous of Henin-Hardenne. homegirl tries her hardest and everyone wants to undermine her success.

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:10 AM
You know what the funniest this about this statment is that I have heard justine say the same thing many times over and no one has ever started a thread critizing her. Now tell why is that?

i don't know, i'm new here, I don't really start threads. But yes, I notice Justine uses the "i'm fatigued excuse/not 100%" and I'll admit I don't really like it when she does that, but does that make me like her less, no.

-and answer my question, couldn't you say all of the Justine haters are just jealous of her success?

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:13 AM
Its true. the truth hurts.

wonder where all the touchy feely sensitive types where at IW and RG? its pro-tennis, its not Serena's job to rebuild the vanquished confidence. Sport shrinks charge money for that sort of service. Crush 'em mercilessly Baby Girl!

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:18 AM
Justine's got no haters. Just a few viewers(captured in film for those not in deep denial) honest enough to call a lying cheat a lying cheat. Thats gotta be worse than Serena's truth.

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:22 AM
Please, what fame does justine have. We all know that she's a liar and a cheat though and that's what made her rich and famous. We serena fans do not begrudge her of her dishonesty and the way is which she has achieve it Serena earn whatever she has achieve fair and square.

sour grapes? well looks like you're a jealous hater, and you were just criticizing others for the same. double standard?

you don't win three grand slams on one serve taken away. and in that JCap semifinal, there were some bad line calls that went against Justine.

anyways Justine has 6 tier 1s, a Fed Cup title, three grand slams(all of which she beat the world number 1 or 2 in the final, not some # 6) an olympic gold medal and held the number one ranking for what 40+ weeks? You don't get success like that by "lying." face it, Justine earned her achievements and she did it without a huge amount of natural talent like Lindsay, WS, or Clijsters; making her achievements even more remarkable.

either stop hating Justine or stop complaining about the haters of your fans.

Jelena Moon
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:23 AM
At the end of the day, Justine will be known for her great tennis skills and that is all that matters

Emptiness
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:30 AM
Actually you're arguing another argument possibly by another poster. Because I see Serena praising other players. However I don't care for or expect for her to go overboard with it. If she states the other person played well, that's good enough for me and like Serena, I'm more inclined to care about her game and want to hear her thoughts and know about it rather than the other person. The stuff about implying how one can beat Serena comes from people like you, not Serena. How one gets "I can only beat myself" from "I didn't play my best" seems to be a whole lot of filling in gaps that don't exist.
People like me? Ok.
I don't hate Serena and i don't like her. I do think she often disregrads other players efforts with her comments that she didnt play 100%. Whether she means to come across this way or not i dunno. I'm not the only one whose noticed this.

- Fragrance [Jealous of Serena's success, wealth and fame, fearing for the safety of favourites from the almightly rath of the Queen] :yeah:

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:35 AM
At the end of the day, Justine will be known for her great tennis skills and that is all that matters

No. Justin will always be remembered as a lying cheat. Captured in film for generations to witness "Europe's athlete of the year" in her enduring infamy.

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:36 AM
All I have to say is that justine was one of my favs until that FO crap she pulled and from then on I have no respect for her. I don't care what she has earned the girl is just plain dishonest. Subject close.

why is this always exaggerated? it was one serve, not even a point. and from what NBC said, when asked if she held her hand up, Justine said "just play."

-that's avoiding the question, not lying.

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:36 AM
People like me? Ok.

Yes, you. How else should I put it when you are making the connection and implication. That is as direct as I'm going to get. I don't deal with terms such as "hater" if that's what you're implying

I don't hate Serena and i don't like her.

I made no mention on your preferences of player.

I do think she often disregrads other players efforts with her comments that she didnt play 100%. Whether she means to come across this way or not i dunno. I'm not the only one whose noticed this.

You aren't the only one with that opinon, as I am not the only one who disagrees with it.

- Fragrance [Jealous of Serena's success, wealth and fame, fearing for the safety of favourites from the almightly rath of the Queen] :yeah:

I see you found this to be necessary? :rolleyes:

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:37 AM
No. Justin will always be remembered as a lying cheat. Captured in film for generations to witness "Europe's athlete of the year" in her enduring infamy.

explain to me how you get three grand slams and a gold medal by cheating?

Ted of Teds Tennis
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:41 AM
Are you sure about the kissing her opponent's feet thing, because most would not even be satisfied if she did that.

Funny, but that's the impression I get from a number of Williams fans here.

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:43 AM
why is this always exaggerated? it was one serve, not even a point. and from what NBC said, when asked if she held her hand up, Justine said "just play."

-that's avoiding the question, not lying.

These are the kind of posters that want to criticize decent players? Look in a mirrow. The whole world saw the tape.

Emptiness
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:43 AM
Yes, you. How else should I put it when you are making the connection and implication. That is as direct as I'm going to get. I don't deal with terms such as "hater" if that's what you're implying
I made no mention on your preferences of player.
Yeah i was implying that because of the general assumption you're Anti-Williams when you say one negative thing about them.

You aren't the only one with that opinon, as I am not the only one who disagrees with it.True. We have our different viewpoints. If it means anything i respect your opinion.

I see you found this to be necessary? :rolleyes:Yes and was not aimed at you.

treufreund
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:47 AM
Serena fans are being defensive. Serena, give it a rest. congrats on the tourney win but enough already with this phony "I did not play well" crap. :fiery:

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:50 AM
These are the kind of posters that want to criticize decent players? Look in a mirrow. The whole world saw the tape.

a. where did i criticize any players. I'm criticizing fans.
b. hey you tell me what really happened. All I heard was that mary carillo saying the day after when NBC had coverage that justine said "just play" (but probably in french)

PatM04
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:50 AM
Serena isn't my favorite but I have always respected her. She is a talented player. But she does need to start giving a little credit to her opponents. If Serena is making errors she will say she is playing bad and that if she were playing her best she would win. No argument there but if you're making errors and your opponent isnt...doesnt that make your opponent the better player for the moment?

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:52 AM
ShitI just turned on during a quick coffee break, Christ albloody mighty some Serena fans are humourless one eyed son of a bitches aren't they? say one word slightly negative about Serena and whoever does it is called a hater, have to be bloody insecure to carry on like that, Young calves that are weaned too early carry on like that sometimes, go outside and kick a few old lots of cowshit over, it makes You feel better! no bullshit!

ode to the "cowshit".

in every thing there is a season
a chance to dance or rhyme
somehow spilling words
always wasting time
if you've never been the man
you always hope this is it
but sure as rain
yer just cowshit

barmaid
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:04 AM
Serena fans are being defensive. Serena, give it a rest. congrats on the tourney win but enough already with this phony "I did not play well" crap. :fiery:

Treu, Exactly, Wertheim is only pointing out the "tiresome" and monotonous comments that Serena has uttered over the last few months..."I didn't play my best, less than 50%...played like "crap" !!:rolleyes: :eek: :fiery:


barmaid:wavey:

switz
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:05 AM
it's not good the way she always seems to want to emphasis how poorly she plays but i mean who really cares. it's not that big a deal.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:10 AM
I don't hear him attacking a certain someone consistently using the tired and annoying response "I'm only 17!" :rolleyes:
Right???!!! Damn, can't Serena tell the truth?? She didn't play her best. A lot of that that I saw in the second set was luck or lack of confidence on the part of Sveta. With the way Serena was playing, Sveta should have beat her in straights. And, that's the honest to God truth. Jon is two-faced. Watch, when the sisters get back on top, he'll be riding that band-wagon once again. I've seen him take quite a few wagon rides in all these years. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:12 AM
The Media says that more than she does.
But, that's a lie, because she just said it at this tournament when Sveta beat her little ass in straights. :mad:

Stamp Paid
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:12 AM
WTF, Jon Wertheim?!!!!!!!!!!! You asshole!

When Serena is at her best, or better yet, WHEN SHE PLAYS WITH MORE WINNERS THAN ERRORS, there is NO PLAYER ON TOUR WHO CAN BEAT HER. You other player fans just need to accept that, at her best, SERENA STEAMROLLS YOUR FAVORITE ON ANY SURFACE, ANY DAY! Once you realize that and come to terms with it you will see that this inferred "arrogance" is simply, the goddamned truth!

And plus, Serena said: "It is good to know that I can not play my best and still win." After the year Serena has had, and the devastating disappointments Serena has had, she is entitled to say that goddammit! Is this not what Justine said in EVERY SINGLE GODDAMNED MATCH AT THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN THIS YEAR?! Justine, just like everyone, knew that she wasn't playing her best at the AO this year, and she let it be known after most of her matches. I didn't see a problem with that, and neither did you! Why when Serena says it, its a fucking issue. What are the first words that came out of Dementieva's mouth at the Miami final and the USO Final? "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to play my best, so yadda, yadda, yadda..." I was tempted to come on board and post "How arrogant is Elena?", just to show you all how you have this WIlliams Sister double standard, and quote her exact words, but Dementy is one of my faves, so I didn't.

Its a good thing that Sveta doesn't infer anything from Serena's sentences as most of you all seem to. Sveta's confidence should NOT LIE in what Serena says in her post mkatch interview.

I could see if Serena WASN'T A PERFECTIONIST, then she would be bullshitting. But seeing as how she is, whenever she has more errors than winners, GODDAMMIT SHE PLAYED BAD AND IS ENTITLED TO SAY SO! AND THIS IS NOT ARROGANCE!

Arrogance would be to say, "Sveta had nothing to hurt me," or "Normally, I wuld beat Sveta." Until Serena comments directly on the state of someone elses game, I do not see her as arrogant in her criticisms of her GODDAMNED SELF. http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/firey.gifEveryone who thinks so needs to stop being so insecure about their favorites and GET THE FUCK OVER IT!

sabandborg
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:16 AM
hey you tell me what really happened. All I heard was that mary carillo saying the day after when NBC had coverage that justine said "just play" (but probably in french)

hey, you stop being so lazy, watch some tape!

vettipooh
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:18 AM
ShitI just turned on during a quick coffee break, Christ albloody mighty some Serena fans are humourless one eyed son of a bitches aren't they? say one word slightly negative about Serena and whoever does it is called a hater, have to be bloody insecure to carry on like that, Young calves that are weaned too early carry on like that sometimes, go outside and kick a few old lots of cowshit over, it makes You feel better! no bullshit! You would know!!!!!!! :haha: :haha: :haha:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Frankly having watched the match Sveta would be more justified in saying that she would have won at something just a bit nearer her best - her best was better than Serena's for much of the second set and if she had been able to sustain her level and avoid a few key errors Sveta was a clear winner in two. It was Ok for serena to say it when she was the best player around but since her ranking (or her race position) now gives a pretty good idea of how well she can currently play its plain silly to keep on with the line. At some point she has to realise she no longer is the best and find out why and try and do something about it rather than just keep on repeating it. You can't rebuild a reputation based on hot air alone and expect players not to believe what they actually see and you can't convince yourself everything is fine when your forehand often looks like its having a love affair with the middle of the net.
But, it's funny when Lindsay was rebuilding after her knee surgery, y'all didn't say all this crap. Her play now does not give any inclination on how well she can play. She's trying to do something about it by continuing to play and regain her confidence and skills. Who's trying to rebuild a reputation? She's trying to rebuild her game. It's not about reputation, but game. She's obviously not playing her best, but it's not based on her ranking or race position, it's based on her lack of match play and her injuries. Hell, if that were the case, why is MoMo No.1? This does not give me the idea that she's the best of the best, especially since she hasn't won one slam.

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:20 AM
Serena is indeed classy unlike the cheating Henin-Hardenne.

For the most part every player in some capacity are critical of their play. However we will never hear Weirthless, or the detractors(such as yourself) criticize others for saying they did not play their best.

Peace:lol:

of course you can't just say that Rena is classy without bringing up JHH... :rolleyes:

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:21 AM
get back to me when people start worrying about the players who bad mouth Serena in their press conferences talking about tiresome. Serena never talks bad about her opponents but the same can't be said about her opponents with her yet she's the one who should change. :rolleyes:

Well since Serena can't say this to all these people who want her to say what they need to feel better about themselves or their favs due to professional courtesy

"BITE ME" :wavey:

or better yet grow up...if she's not being negative about someone other than herself get over it. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:24 AM
Yes its very disrespectful to her opponents.
I think the reason why Serena gets so much slack for this is because she constantly uses this excuse. Whenever she loses its not because her opponent simply outplayed her its because she didn't play her best. Well she is human she can't play her best 24/7 and niether can the other players. This is very much a mentral game as is physical. No one expects her to kiss her opponent's feet but to give them a little credit would be very sportsmanship-like. She has every right to critique her own game but in the way in which she critiques detracts from her opponent's accomplishments.

Vettipooh, Maria is only 17. Serena is a grown woman. Using another player's actions to defend someone is a very poor defense.
How is it a freaking excuse?? She won. :confused:

You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If no one expects her to to kiss her opponents' feet, then why when she does give them credit and criticizes her own game is it disrespectful? Especially when you say it's okay for her to critique her own game? I don't get it. How does she take away from her opponent's game when she's critiquing her own? Okay, you tell us...what should she say in giving her opponent credit and critique her own game to make all of you feel better? :confused:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:26 AM
Yes but Serena does this after EVERY match! Whether she wins or loses! Come on! What would it hurt her or her reputation to once in a while say:

She was good but I tried my best and beat her.

OR even:

I tried my best but she was just better than me today.

Other players do say these kind of things, including Sharapova.
Maybe because it would be a lie.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:27 AM
How is it a freaking excuse?? She won. :confused:

You speak out of both sides of your mouth. If no one expects her to to kiss her opponents' feet, then why when she does give them credit and criticizes her own game is it disrespectful? Especially when you say it's okay for her to critique her own game? I don't get it. How does she take away from her opponent's game when she's critiquing her own? Okay, you tell us...what should she say in giving her opponent credit and critique her own game to make all of you feel better? :confused:
she's suppose to say, "Player x is the greatest player I ever played. On my best day I'm lucky if I beat her." :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:27 AM
Beware anyone who wants you to be less honest so they can feel better about themselves.

If Serena follows this advice he'll be writing about how what a liar she is.
No truer words have ever been spoken. :worship: :worship: :worship:

ico4498
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:28 AM
of course you can't just say that Rena is classy without bringing up JHH... :rolleyes: whats the fun in that? JHH ia a lying cheat, Jon should devote more time to that, or Amelie's guesstimations as to the Williams worth to tennis, or JCap's notoriously sour disposition, or Elena's inside knowledge of how Richard fixes matches, or Hingis' homophobia. all of which is way worse than some honest self critique.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:29 AM
Maybe because it would be a lie.
but apparently that's the only *truth* people want to hear. :lol:

tennisluver99
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:30 AM
Serena just can't accept the fact that she's not the best anymore. Well, accept it Serena, the other players are catching up.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:32 AM
what the fun in that? JHH ia a lying cheat, Jon should devote more time to that, or Amelie's guesstimations as to the Williams worth to tennis, or JCap's notoriously sour disposition, or Elena's inside knowledge of how Richard fixes matches, or Hingis' homophobia. all of which is way worse than some honest self critique.

I wouldn't care if Serena ever gave due to Justine, Amelie, Jennifer, Elena, etc. Why should she? These players aren't held accountable for their stupidity and pettiness when it concerns Serena, but Serena is taken to task all because she didn't say enough praiseworthy stuff.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:34 AM
Serena just can't accept the fact that she's not the best anymore. Well, accept it Serena, the other players are catching up.

If the players are only catching up then that means Serena's still the best.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:34 AM
What the f.. actions are you talking about...saying that she play like crap. I bet you worthless writes that crap and comes on this board and it because he knows when he puts this shit on paper he will about 5-10 of threads to read and get his jollies off on.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:35 AM
If the players are only catching up then that means Serena's still the best.
shhhh! Let him think he was putting Serena down...:tape:

:lol:

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:36 AM
You know what the funniest this about this statment is that I have heard justine say the same thing many times over and no one has ever started a thread critizing her. Now tell why is that?

if you actually followed Justine, which you don't, you would notice that she doesn't say that at EVERY one of her losses, and also gives tons of credits to the opponent, whether she wins or loses.

why on earth can't you defend Serena without either bringing in crap about Justine ( the Rena fans' favorite) or newly crowned Queen J Cap?

I really love Serena and really think she is one of the most classiest girl in the sport, but I have to say that her always saying that the opponent won because she played at only 30% of her level really ticks me off.
Serena does give credit to the opponent, but still, that comment is also taking away from the opponent's achievement, which is beating 6 slam winner Serena Williams in a fair tennis match.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:38 AM
pure genius. plus the net, the size of the court, the sweet spot in the racquet, the weather, if you're JCap the location of the blimp and babies crying, if you're Novotna(or Kim) the proximity of a slam title. maybe even the state of your game.

sorry condescending wannabee genius. really weak stuff.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Savior
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:39 AM
Good God. Some folks need to calm the hell down. The guy didn't say anything that awful. Certainly nothing "nasty." He just said that she pulls the "I didn't play well" card too often. And, I'm sure she just said that because she wants to try to rekindle that invincible aura she had about two years ago. And, what better way to do that than to insinuate that the hottest player on the tour got lucky to ALMOST beat you? He just called her on her gamesmanship. I hear more people say worse things about Henin-Hardenne and MUCH less grumbling from her fans. Touchy, touchy.

Ari
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:39 AM
I also agree with Weirthem's comments and I am a huge Serena Williams fan.

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:39 AM
whats the fun in that? JHH ia a lying cheat, Jon should devote more time to that, or Amelie's guesstimations as to the Williams worth to tennis, or JCap's notoriously sour disposition, or Elena's inside knowledge of how Richard fixes matches, or Hingis' homophobia. all of which is way worse than some honest self critique.

again, stop detracting from the topic, which is Serena.
No one gives a damn shit about what JHH and the other said/did. If anybody did, they would be the one talked about in the article.

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:41 AM
I wouldn't care if Serena ever gave due to Justine, Amelie, Jennifer, Elena, etc. Why should she? These players aren't held accountable for their stupidity and pettiness when it concerns Serena, but Serena is taken to task all because she didn't say enough praiseworthy stuff.

who said they weren't held accountable??
Those players received tons of crap as well when they did what they did or said what they said.
Stop living in the past.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:43 AM
I guess thats one thing we agree on. It is subjective but then again so is whether or not Serena played her best.


But the only subjectivity that counts is Serena's. Que no??!!

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:45 AM
who said they weren't held accountable??
Those players received tons of crap as well when they did what they did or said what they said.
Stop living in the past.

I don't think they have been held accountable especially when their statements were and are much more damaging than anything Serena could or in this case could not say about an opponent.

I'll stop living in the past when you all stop living in the past about this lame "credit/graciousness" argument.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:47 AM
again, stop detracting from the topic, which is Serena.
No one gives a damn shit about what JHH and the other said/did. If anybody did, they would be the one talked about in the article.

Oh yeah, because they were held accountable for their ridiculous words :rolleyes: You are right, no one does care about JHH or Amelie's damaging words but they care about Serena not praising them to high heaven after a match. That makes so much sense.

ico4498
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:49 AM
" No one gives a damn shit about what JHH and the other said/did."

nah. some Justine fans like to pretend they don't "give a damn shit". usually they fail badly.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:49 AM
why is this always exaggerated? it was one serve, not even a point. and from what NBC said, when asked if she held her hand up, Justine said "just play."

-that's avoiding the question, not lying.
No, that's lying by omission. :lol:

Kabezya
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:50 AM
I wouldn't care if Serena ever gave due to Justine, Amelie, Jennifer, Elena, etc. Why should she? These players aren't held accountable for their stupidity and pettiness when it concerns Serena, but Serena is taken to task all because she didn't say enough praiseworthy stuff.


:worship:

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:51 AM
I don't think they have been held accountable especially when their statements were and are much more damaging than anything Serena could or in this case could not say about an opponent.

I'll stop living in the past when you all stop living in the past about this lame "credit/graciousness" argument.

Receiving crap from the press and the fans isn't being held accountable??
Serena is receiving the same thing, for something I agree is less than the others, but you still have to keep in mind that this is all just OPINIONS.
People don't like Serena, some don't like JHH, some don't like Amelie...etc...
The thing is: every player gets crap all the time, from the press, from the fans, from everything.

and by the way, the credit/gracousness thing isn't the past, it happens everyday.
Momo discrediting the WS was the past. The hand incident was the past. The Jen SF USOpen 2004 was the past.
Serena bl

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:53 AM
" No one gives a damn shit about what JHH and the other said/did."

nah. some Justine fans like to pretend they don't "give a damn shit". usually they fail badly.


how low to attack a fanbase or even another player, when they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

People just need to bring up crappier things about other people just so that their favorites' craps don't seem so crappy after all. But you know what? It's all still crap.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:55 AM
WTF, Jon Wertheim?!!!!!!!!!!! You asshole!

When Serena is at her best, or better yet, WHEN SHE PLAYS WITH MORE WINNERS THAN ERRORS, there is NO PLAYER ON TOUR WHO CAN BEAT HER. You other player fans just need to accept that, at her best, SERENA STEAMROLLS YOUR FAVORITE ON ANY SURFACE, ANY DAY! Once you realize that and come to terms with it you will see that this inferred "arrogance" is simply, the goddamned truth!

And plus, Serena said: "It is good to know that I can not play my best and still win." After the year Serena has had, and the devastating disappointments Serena has had, she is entitled to say that goddammit! Is this not what Justine said in EVERY SINGLE GODDAMNED MATCH AT THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN THIS YEAR?! Justine, just like everyone, knew that she wasn't playing her best at the AO this year, and she let it be known after most of her matches. I didn't see a problem with that, and neither did you! Why when Serena says it, its a fucking issue. What are the first words that came out of Dementieva's mouth at the Miami final and the USO Final? "Unfortunately, I wasn't able to play my best, so yadda, yadda, yadda..." I was tempted to come on board and post "How arrogant is Elena?", just to show you all how you have this WIlliams Sister double standard, and quote her exact words, but Dementy is one of my faves, so I didn't.

Its a good thing that Sveta doesn't infer anything from Serena's sentences as most of you all seem to. Sveta's confidence should NOT LIE in what Serena says in her post mkatch interview.

I could see if Serena WASN'T A PERFECTIONIST, then she would be bullshitting. But seeing as how she is, whenever she has more errors than winners, GODDAMMIT SHE PLAYED BAD AND IS ENTITLED TO SAY SO! AND THIS IS NOT ARROGANCE!

Arrogance would be to say, "Sveta had nothing to hurt me," or "Normally, I wuld beat Sveta." Until Serena comments directly on the state of someone elses game, I do not see her as arrogant in her criticisms of her GODDAMNED SELF. http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/firey.gifEveryone who thinks so needs to stop being so insecure about their favorites and GET THE FUCK OVER IT!
:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:55 AM
Oh yeah, because they were held accountable for their ridiculous words :rolleyes: You are right, no one does care about JHH or Amelie's damaging words but they care about Serena not praising them to high heaven after a match. That makes so much sense.

JHH and Amelie have been highly criticized by the press and the fans also, at the time these incidents happened. If you actually followed tennis other than the WS, you would have noticed.

I am also a fan of Serena, she doesn't need to kiss the asses of other players, she just shouldn't talk about how much she sucked during the game after beating another great player (sveta) in a tough final match. It's just simple politeness you know.

MinnyGophers
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:56 AM
okay all of this is getting into a bashfest of players.

count me out.

Nighty night all

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:56 AM
Receiving crap from the press and the fans isn't being held accountable??

Wow this really happened? :eek:

and by the way, the credit/gracousness thing isn't the past, it happens everyday.
Momo discrediting the WS was the past. The hand incident was the past. The Jen SF USOpen 2004 was the past.
Serena bl

Oh I see. That makes it okay. Gotcha.

ico4498
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:56 AM
" how low to attack a fanbase"

see, you're failing badly.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:58 AM
but apparently that's the only *truth* people want to hear. :lol:
The hypocrisy of it all. :rolleyes:

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:03 AM
JHH and Amelie have been highly criticized by the press and the fans also, at the time these incidents happened. If you actually followed tennis other than the WS, you would have noticed.

Funny you talk about how low it is to attack a fanbase and player and here you are attacking me. Hypocrite. But then again I'm not surprised. And what I noticed is that JHH and Amelie among a few weren't criticized enough. But then again not giving enough praise to your opponent is so much of a bigger crime then lying or saying matches are fixed. You would know, you follow JHH and Amelie and poor old me only follows Venus and Serena :rolleyes:

I am also a fan of Serena, she doesn't need to kiss the asses of other players, she just shouldn't talk about how much she sucked during the game after beating another great player (sveta) in a tough final match. It's just simple politeness you know.

And I'm sure Svetlana was offended. You don't know what Serena said to Svetlana at the net the same like she did with Patty. Serena doesn't need to kiss the asses of any player and I'm glad she never will.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:47 AM
shhhh! Let him think he was putting Serena down...:tape:

:lol:
:haha: :haha: :haha:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:48 AM
if you actually followed Justine, which you don't, you would notice that she doesn't say that at EVERY one of her losses, and also gives tons of credits to the opponent, whether she wins or loses.

why on earth can't you defend Serena without either bringing in crap about Justine ( the Rena fans' favorite) or newly crowned Queen J Cap?

I really love Serena and really think she is one of the most classiest girl in the sport, but I have to say that her always saying that the opponent won because she played at only 30% of her level really ticks me off.
Serena does give credit to the opponent, but still, that comment is also taking away from the opponent's achievement, which is beating 6 slam winner Serena Williams in a fair tennis match.
WTF?? :scratch:

dreamgoddess099
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:52 AM
Damn you Serena, how dare you have the nerve to only criticize yourself and not your opponents! What arrogance to only call yourself an idiot or stupid! You should be burned at the stake for having such high expectations for yourself. No seriously, Serena is a little arrogant and that's why she's won 6 grandslam titles. Should she be as "gracious" as Kim and have none? Serena thinks of herself as the best because of what she has accomplished in her career compared to other players in the top 100. Some only dislike Serena because she's good and has the audacity to act like she knows it. Shame on her for having so much pride in her ablity. :rolleyes: She obviously should know her place if you know what I mean. :tape:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:53 AM
JHH and Amelie have been highly criticized by the press and the fans also, at the time these incidents happened. If you actually followed tennis other than the WS, you would have noticed.

I am also a fan of Serena, she doesn't need to kiss the asses of other players, she just shouldn't talk about how much she sucked during the game after beating another great player (sveta) in a tough final match. It's just simple politeness you know.
She did suck!!! Did you even watch the match, or are you just jumping on the bandwagon? :hehehe:

MrSerenaWilliams
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:05 AM
Well Serena's comments are TRUE! When she hits 45+ UNFORCED errors during a match, they are exactly that...UNFORCED. It's not because her opponent is playing better, it's because she's not playing to HER standards (the same standards that helped her win 5 OUT OF 6 Grand Slams, and lose 7-5 in the SEMI's of the other one). Just like Venus in Stanford. If she had have been a little more solid on the forehand side, she would have won. It's not like Davenport dominated the match. Just like in Paris, when Serena lost in the quarters...she hit 45 UNFORCED ERRORS...that's almost 2 SETS WORTH OF FREE POINTS. When they play like that, their opponents should beat them 2 and 2. When the can still win despite spraying balls, it's a testament to how good they truly are and their fight. But MOST OF THE TIME, they are not being out-hit by their opponents, they just can't get the ball in. I think the only match where their opponent played BETTER, not CLEANER, BETTER, that Serena was the Wimbledon Final. Sharapova did her job, Serena didn't. But look at ALL of her 56 LOSSES IN HER 7 YEAR CAREER, in all of them, she has hit WAY MORE UE's that winners. It's true! STOP HATING, THEY'RE HER STANDARDS! LEAVE HER THE HELL ALONE!

moby
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:19 AM
i didn't know that hitting lots of UEs makes you a better player, win or lose
next time if i go into a match that i have no chance of winning, i should just go for broke on everything so that i'll still be a better player than my opponent

btw congrats to wertheim
he's managed to get people talking again
looks like he'll keep his job for a while

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:20 AM
I find it strange that little is said when others claim they did not play well. Although, I will say that sometimes Serena does put 2 on the 10 when talking about her game I just don't understand how everyone else is excused?:lol:

I really think it proves the point that the sisters are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. :rolleyes:



You know what, because Serena is the only player who claims she didn't play her best win or lose!

As a Serena fan, you are somewhat alike! :devil:

but still, wertheim dnt have that credibility to me. :p

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:25 AM
I never understood how Serena saying she played badly meant the other person wasn't good enough. If by Serena's own standards, she didn't play the way she wanted to or felt she could, who is someone not in her place and body to tell her any different?


and thats "CLASSY" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

moby
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:27 AM
actually the annoying thing about serena is not that she says she doesn't play her best
it is that immediately before or after she says that, she'll say that her opponent played very well (even if she wins that match)
hence implying: serena playing badly >> player X playing very well
i don't see how anyone can miss this point

maybe she might want to say "neither of us were playing well, but i managed to pull through"
that certainly wouldn't rub people the wrong way

Amorc
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:27 AM
i didn't know that hitting lots of UEs makes you a better player, win or lose
next time if i go into a match that i have no chance of winning, i should just go for broke on everything so that i'll still be a better player than my opponent

btw congrats to wertheim
he's managed to get people talking again
looks like he'll keep his job for a while


lolololol

gentenaire
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:30 AM
Well Serena's comments are TRUE! When she hits 45+ UNFORCED errors during a match, they are exactly that...UNFORCED. It's not because her opponent is playing better,

So you believe that she would have hit the same number of unforced errors had she been playing the 500th ranked in the world?

I don't. Serena hits more unforced errors against top players than against lower ranked players and that's because top players FORCE her to take more risks! The player on the other side of the net does have an impact, whatever you or Serena might say.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:31 AM
and thats "CLASSY" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
and how is it not??!! Are you just saying shit out of your ass?? :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:32 AM
actually the annoying thing about serena is not that she says she doesn't play her best
it is that immediately before or after she says that, she'll say that her opponent played very well (even if she wins that match)
hence implying: serena playing badly >> player X playing very well
i don't see how anyone can miss this point

maybe she might want to say "neither of us were playing well, but i managed to pull through"
that certainly wouldn't rub people the wrong way
Why don't you say it and pretend she did. Maybe you will feel better. I swear, you people really need to get over yourselves. :rolleyes:

RVD
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:37 AM
Serena is saying exactly what she needs to be saying. In improving her game, she's also improving her mental toughness. And no honest champion goes around building up the opponent. That's ridiculous! She is building herself up, and strengthening her mental resolve.

It's easy to read which posters are (or have been) competitors by reading the responses to this, but I'm really surprised that Weirthem doesn't 'get it'.

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:41 AM
At the end of the day, Justine will be known for her great tennis skills and that is all that matters



Yes! and not of the cheap clothes she wears, or the B-movies she is starring in too, or trying to fit in hollywood walk of fame!

:hearts:

besides, "the hand" is more forgetabble than "the catsuit"

moby
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:44 AM
Why don't you say it and pretend she did. Maybe you will feel better. I swear, you people really need to get over yourselves. :rolleyes:
i don't think you are getting my point
or maybe you don't want to

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:44 AM
All I have to say is that justine was one of my favs until that FO crap she pulled and from then on I have no respect for her. I don't care what she has earned the girl is just plain dishonest. Subject close.


I dnt believe you, really!

now go on talk more crap and be a liar yourself to prove your point!

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:45 AM
i don't think you are getting my point
or maybe you don't want to
I don't think you're getting my point, or maybe you refuse to.

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:49 AM
it's not good the way she always seems to want to emphasis how poorly she plays but i mean who really cares. it's not that big a deal.


Except for the WS fans who find these things written by Werthy as nasty!

i wonder because the starter of the thread is a Serena fan and what could have been the big deal of starting this thread.

moby
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:51 AM
I don't think you're getting my point, or maybe you refuse to.
well, what's your point? :o
that i should pretend i am serena and say what i want her to say???
i'm quirky in many ways, but not in this way. :confused:

Junex
Sep 28th, 2004, 07:03 AM
and how is it not??!! Are you just saying shit out of your ass?? :rolleyes:


Yeah,

and i bet you, out of the 2448 post you submitted, 2440 were smileys! :bounce: :devil:

and that doesn't come out of your ass!

i am being classless but i fail to supass you oh great DeDe4925!

JonBcn
Sep 28th, 2004, 07:24 AM
Forgive me if I'm repeating something that's already been said; I cant be bothered to read through the whole thread as I can guess exactly what it's been like up to this point. I guess the padlock icon is looming.

Anyway, my objective (in that I am neither a fan nor someone who dislikes Serena) opinion, is that Yes, this constant routine of "I played like shit" is utterly tiring. That doesn't mean Serena is completely classless in every facet of her personality: she is clearly not. But at the end of the day, this is just her variation of Justine's "I had a fever/cough/virus/headache/rectal prolapse..." etc, or Amelie's "No, I didn't choke, I just got tight", or Jen's irritation with every passing distraction, or Dementieva's "I couldn't serve". Actually, forget that last one, it's true. But my point is that all top players have a favourite excuse for when they lose because they hate to lose. They spend their whole lives being told that they are the best, that they are going to win the most important tournaments and be where they want to be. It's a form of denial, and a mechanism to cope with the fact that they havent lived up to their own expectations, or the expectations of all the people hanging around making a living off them.

b8beEbLu3
Sep 28th, 2004, 07:55 AM
Well Serena's comments are TRUE! When she hits 45+ UNFORCED errors during a match, they are exactly that...UNFORCED. It's not because her opponent is playing better, it's because she's not playing to HER standards (the same standards that helped her win 5 OUT OF 6 Grand Slams, and lose 7-5 in the SEMI's of the other one).
Gotta disagree with that. Her opponents are playing better than her because they could've made the unforced errors as well, but didnt. Tennis is a game that requires two players. Regardless of how bad they played or you played, at the end of the day, they beat you fair and square(well, unless you cheated). Your opponent shouldn't lower their play because you couldn't play to their level. So yeah, even though Serena didn't play her best, her opponent still outplayed her.

DEETHELICK
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:06 AM
I've heard Serena give credit (to my fave Elena D out of all people), but she does use the line about 'not playing her best' a hell of a lot.

She could rephrase it maybe i.e. at TIMES I didn't play my best, but I played well at key moments' OR 'I played good and kept fighting'

And at least some credit to Sveta (who most likely must have been shattered). On the same note, it would have been good if Sveta said something nice about Serena too.

(I haven't read any indepth interviews, so I might have missed their reactions)

skanky~skanketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:05 AM
i love serena and all, but i agree with him.

this thread is about jons apparently nasty comments about serena. so bring up justine? what are u? hater queen?

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 10:02 AM
I think what is lost in the mist is that actually Serena said something really big with those comments. She basically said that on todayīs tour she really needs to play her best to win, otherwise sheīs gonna get burned...

Face it, there was a time that Serena could play average and still win in straights....but this year she found out that only your best play, either mentally or physically, will be good enough.

So for her it was encouraging to find out that on a day that her forehand was almost always finding the net and that she couldnīt win most of the long rallies, that she still found out a way to win. THAT is what I think she was talking about.

CJ07
Sep 28th, 2004, 10:24 AM
All I'll say is that when Serena plays her best tennis consistently for two sets, she always wins 6-1 6-2 in under an hour regardless of the opponent.
As a champion and a perfectionist, she expects nothing less. There's nothing wrong with that.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:22 AM
I also agree with Weirthem's comments and I am a huge Serena Williams fan.

Yea right, I just love people like you who come on this board and put your so call 2 negative cents in and then say you are a huge Serena fan. Please come up with a better line than that.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:26 AM
JHH and Amelie have been highly criticized by the press and the fans also, at the time these incidents happened. If you actually followed tennis other than the WS, you would have noticed.

I am also a fan of Serena, she doesn't need to kiss the asses of other players, she just shouldn't talk about how much she sucked during the game after beating another great player (sveta) in a tough final match. It's just simple politeness you know.

Another fake fan.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:39 AM
i love serena and all, but i agree with him.

this thread is about jons apparently nasty comments about serena. so bring up justine? what are u? hater queen?

Another fake statement.

SJW
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:40 AM
he either needs to fuck right off, or realise that every player does it....and the Williams sisters seem to be the only ones to get called for it :rolleyes:

maybe it's not in the "tennis code" to note that you played shit, but please, either be consistent or shut the fuck up. that goes for the majority of posters on this board too.

and yea, i never got how Serena saying she played poorly means the other player didnt play well :scratch: but the hypocrites can feel free to fill me in on that one :yeah: you would have to be one hell of an irrational person to follow that logic :rolleyes:

example:

Henin losing at the US--> things to do with her illness (acceptable)
Jennifer being thrashed by Serena at Wimbledon -> she didn't play well (acceptable)
Lindsay losing at the US --> injury (acceptable)
Serena or Venus losing --> whether it be injury or not (apparently, unacceptable)

i know they're the best players of this generation, and some thing that they should be held in higher regard than the other players, but please...stop the hypocrisy :rolleyes:

if my football teams play shit...i'll say it. if my players play shit....i'll say it. and they should know that they played shit. cuz if Serena said that she played well vs Sveta, whether it be her birthday or not i'da yelled "BULLSHIT!" and be tempted to smack her, cuz that would have meant she was losing her mind :rolleyes:

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:43 AM
he either needs to fuck right off, or realise that every player does it....and the Williams sisters seem to be the only ones to get called for it :rolleyes:

maybe it's not in the "tennis code" to note that you played shit, but please, either be consistent or shut the fuck up. that goes for the majority of posters on this board too.

and yea, i never got how Serena saying she played poorly means the other player didnt play well :scratch: but the hypocrites can feel free to fill me in on that one :yeah: you would have to be one hell of an irrational person to follow that logic :rolleyes:

example:

Henin losing at the US--> things to do with her illness (acceptable)
Jennifer being thrashed by Serena at Wimbledon -> she didn't play well (acceptable)
Lindsay losing at the US --> injury (acceptable)
Serena or Venus losing --> whether it be injury or not (apparently, unacceptable)

i know they're the best players of this generation, and should be held in higher regard than the other players, but please...stop the hypocrisy :rolleyes:

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

luvmytennis
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:50 AM
Like someone said before "the sisters are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. :rolleyes:"

It does not matter how her game is or was. Always going to negative reactions/comments. If she makes no comments, then she is being arrogant. If she comments on her game (which alot of times isn't her best), its still arrogant. Baby girl, you just can't win. Say what you want to say! And win some tourneys!

bis2806
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:54 AM
Well I think I agree too, Serena exaggerates herself too much and that's because she's not winning as well as she used to :rolleyes:

rjd1111
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:55 AM
if you knew anything about tennis you would know that what your opponent does directly affects how you are able to carry out your gameplan on court. :rolleyes:


Yes I do realize that. But when Serena is at her best Its her Directly Affecting
their Game Plan. Its only when she plays badly that that comes into play.

faste5683
Sep 28th, 2004, 11:58 AM
Well Serena's comments are TRUE! When she hits 45+ UNFORCED errors during a match, they are exactly that...UNFORCED. It's not because her opponent is playing better, it's because she's not playing to HER standards (the same standards that helped her win 5 OUT OF 6 Grand Slams, and lose 7-5 in the SEMI's of the other one). Just like Venus in Stanford. If she had have been a little more solid on the forehand side, she would have won. It's not like Davenport dominated the match. Just like in Paris, when Serena lost in the quarters...she hit 45 UNFORCED ERRORS...that's almost 2 SETS WORTH OF FREE POINTS. When they play like that, their opponents should beat them 2 and 2. When the can still win despite spraying balls, it's a testament to how good they truly are and their fight. But MOST OF THE TIME, they are not being out-hit by their opponents, they just can't get the ball in. I think the only match where their opponent played BETTER, not CLEANER, BETTER, that Serena was the Wimbledon Final. Sharapova did her job, Serena didn't. But look at ALL of her 56 LOSSES IN HER 7 YEAR CAREER, in all of them, she has hit WAY MORE UE's that winners. It's true! STOP HATING, THEY'RE HER STANDARDS! LEAVE HER THE HELL ALONE!

Unforced errors are not little elves which suddenly appear out of thin air. An unforced error is caused an error in judgement, a lack of technical skill on a particular shot, or a combination of the two. Everybody makes them - it's not a big deal.

:wavey:

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:00 PM
he either needs to fuck right off, or realise that every player does it....and the Williams sisters seem to be the only ones to get called for it :rolleyes:

maybe it's not in the "tennis code" to note that you played shit, but please, either be consistent or shut the fuck up. that goes for the majority of posters on this board too.

and yea, i never got how Serena saying she played poorly means the other player didnt play well :scratch: but the hypocrites can feel free to fill me in on that one :yeah: you would have to be one hell of an irrational person to follow that logic :rolleyes:

example:

Henin losing at the US--> things to do with her illness (acceptable)
Jennifer being thrashed by Serena at Wimbledon -> she didn't play well (acceptable)
Lindsay losing at the US --> injury (acceptable)
Serena or Venus losing --> whether it be injury or not (apparently, unacceptable)

i know they're the best players of this generation, and some thing that they should be held in higher regard than the other players, but please...stop the hypocrisy :rolleyes:

if my football teams play shit...i'll say it. if my players play shit....i'll say it. and they should know that they played shit. cuz if Serena said that she played well vs Sveta, whether it be her birthday or not i'da yelled "BULLSHIT!" and be tempted to smack her, cuz that would have meant she was losing her mind :rolleyes:


Funny isnīt it....poor Lindsay, she was sooo unlucky to get injured. Oooh poor Jennifer, the hype got to her!

Poor Juju...she still hasnīt recovered from her mono.

When Serena losses to Jennifer at RG, first major for her that year.....Serena is over and done!!

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:03 PM
And the larger point is: Serena actually was sooo low on confidence that she DIDNīT think she could win if she didnīt play her best, so for her to win was great. Donīt you guys get it?! Serena actually tought that only her BEST would have been good enough to beat Sveta....

Stamp Paid
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:07 PM
And the larger point is: Serena actually was sooo low on confidence that she DIDNīT think she could win if she didnīt play her best, so for her to win was great. Donīt you guys get it?! Serena actually tought that only her BEST would have been good enough to beat Sveta....

Wow, she said THAT??

SJW
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:15 PM
and ANOTHER thing! due to the "logic" displayed by some members on this board, if Serena said that she didnt play well and the other person did, doesnt that mean that her poor play was CAUSED by the other person playing well!??! isnt that what you people are getting on her back for her supposedly "not" saying.

i mean so many of you guys are saying "doesn't she think that her UEs are caused by the other people"....well if you read her comments and your comments, you would see that she's done exactly what you wanted her to do...so she's perfect, right? :rolleyes:

the amount of intelligence displayed on this board is astounding :eek: </rant>

Stamp Paid
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:27 PM
When you all realize that Serena at 75% beats the entire tour on any surface, you will see that any time Serena is pushed, it is most likely due to her errors/poor performance. Once you realize that Serena is only being honest, you will no longer see her as arrogant.
http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif

Xiojuana
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:41 PM
ok look at it from the opponent. pick a game u like to play. checkers chess xbox. if u lose, u would really really hate to hear someone say they beat u even tho they didnt play there best. be honest. wouldnt u?

wertheim cant keep his opinion to himself. its an editorial! thats what he is paid to do. its a fair comment. u r blind if u dont see it.

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Wow, she said THAT??

Yep..if you read the quote you can see that that is what she basically said. Yet people still are taking it the wrong way.

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 12:48 PM
ok look at it from the opponent. pick a game u like to play. checkers chess xbox. if u lose, u would really really hate to hear someone say they beat u even tho they didnt play there best. be honest. wouldnt u?

wertheim cant keep his opinion to himself. its an editorial! thats what he is paid to do. its a fair comment. u r blind if u dont see it.

Of course...but that isnīt what she said. She said : "It was great to see that I can STILL, STILL, win when not playing my best." That to me is telling....Serena is actually saying that right now she only expects to win when playing her best!

TeamUSA#1
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Serena is just trash talking and trying to keep up her psychological advantage over the other players..... however, I think she is only fooling herself. Last year and this year, when Serena loses she is either a. iinjured or b. beaten by someone who can retrieve her power shots over and over and change up the pace and draw Serena into errors. Serena doesnt make errors against most players because they cant get the winners back like a JHH or JCAP can against Serena. That is the game plan if you want to beat Serena.... get her power drives to the corners back and change up the pace (slice, high topspin shots) and watch the errors come. Serena needs to learn how to counter this strategy if she wants to improve, other wise her best will sometimes win against this strategy and sometimes she will lose.....

Back to Werthless;s comment... well he likes to start shit, but he has a point.....When she WINS, take the credit for gutting it out and STOP THERE!! Dont say how poorly you played. If you lose, that is one thing to say you played badly (even if it was your opponents play that caused you to play like shit), but when you win, say you pulled it out and you are happy to win.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:20 PM
OMIGOSH! I didn't know there was gamesmanship on the women's tour!!

Or, would it be gameswomanship?

Cybelle Darkholme
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Why do you think it's Serena who's always under the light? Maybe because she's the one who does consistently and constantly. Serena can't seem to give her oppoenents any credit. It's been a while since she's said anyone actually beat her or that she's played well enough and was still challenged.
So bascially serena should lie? If she felt she didnt play her best then hey she's allowed to say that. Its funny but some people cant seem to except that what serena says is not about them but about herself. SHE DIDNT PLAY as well as she wanted. Thats her issue. Thats her problem to work on. She wants to be better. She wants to be perfect. That kind of attitude should be applauded not criticized by thin skinned whelps wrapped up into serena's approval. Does serena's approval matter to warty that much? Get over yourself already and get some self esteem.

If you need your opponent to praise you then you're already a step behind.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:26 PM
Yep..if you read the quote you can see that that is what she basically said. Yet people still are taking it the wrong way.

Bandabou, I do not know what you are talking about because Serena did not say that.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Serena is just trash talking and trying to keep up her psychological advantage over the other players..... however, I think she is only fooling herself. Last year and this year, when Serena loses she is either a. iinjured or b. beaten by someone who can retrieve her power shots over and over and change up the pace and draw Serena into errors. Serena doesnt make errors against most players because they cant get the winners back like a JHH or JCAP can against Serena. That is the game plan if you want to beat Serena.... get her power drives to the corners back and change up the pace (slice, high topspin shots) and watch the errors come. Serena needs to learn how to counter this strategy if she wants to improve, other wise her best will sometimes win against this strategy and sometimes she will lose.....

Back to Werthless;s comment... well he likes to start shit, but he has a point.....When she WINS, take the credit for gutting it out and STOP THERE!! Dont say how poorly you played. If you lose, that is one thing to say you played badly (even if it was your opponents play that caused you to play like shit), but when you win, say you pulled it out and you are happy to win.\

It truly amazes me how you people are here taking crap about the only woman on the WTA tourn right now who has the most GS and a "Serena Slam". I just keep shaking my head.

Experimentee
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Theres nothing wrong with being honest about her thoughts on the way she played :rolleyes:
Every player always says they play badly at some stage, Kuznetsova said it too, and she almost won! Yet no one has a problem with that :rolleyes:

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Bandabou, I do not know what you are talking about because Serena did not say that.

I take it that way...go read it again. Didnīt she say: " Glad to see that I can still win while not playing my best?!" That STILL in the phrase...

DA FOREHAND
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:31 PM
if you knew anything about tennis you would know that what your opponent does directly affects how you are able to carry out your gameplan on court. :rolleyes:
Is that why Monica has a 5-10 h2h and a 5-15 h2h?

I think he's right, It's about time Serena stopped whining about how poorly she played (win or lose) and do something to raise her level.

Experimentee
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:33 PM
How many times do we see players say that anyway? Particularly top players. They said 'I didnt play my best but I'm happy with a win' every time they struggle. Somehow its only Serena who gets singled out for criticism, even though its probably the most true in her case.

BK4ever
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:33 PM
This is just a perfect example of the double standard that the sisters live under...I don't have any problem with Serena commenting on her level of play...especially when she is always complimentary of her opponents...if some players were more critical of their game...they would be much better off...

The thing that everyone here has to remember is that S&V are black so shit that other players get away they cant...simple as that. Every top player when interviewed after a match will most often talk about their opponents play, but will always talk about what they did right or wrong...but V&S are not allowed to do that...they need to learn there place ;)

bandabou
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Theres nothing wrong with being honest about her thoughts on the way she played :rolleyes:
Every player always says they play badly at some stage, Kuznetsova said it too, and she almost won! Yet no one has a problem with that :rolleyes:

:haha: :rolls: Yeah....funny how people can go around and say Serena was lucky that Sveta was tired and stuff, yet they come out and point fingers at Serena for comments.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:40 PM
So bascially serena should lie? If she felt she didnt play her best then hey she's allowed to say that. Its funny but some people cant seem to except that what serena says is not about them but about herself. SHE DIDNT PLAY as well as she wanted. Thats her issue. Thats her problem to work on. She wants to be better. She wants to be perfect. That kind of attitude should be applauded not criticized by thin skinned whelps wrapped up into serena's approval. Does serena's approval matter to warty that much? Get over yourself already and get some self esteem.

If you need your opponent to praise you then you're already a step behind.

Everyone lies. Lies are an integral part of human interaction. We lie to protect ourselves, we lie to spare other's feelings, we lie in order to get along. In this particular case, (which IMO is about gamesmanship, not lying), if Serena does not want to adhere to accepted norms regarding competition, then she has to also accept the consequences. In other words, if Serena does not want to try to get along by lying/saying "Yes, she was just the better player today," then Serena, and by extension, her most protective fans have to live with the consequences. Which, by the way, is that people won't like it or her, and that some people (Weirthem) will point it out.

IMO, though, Serena knows exactly what Serena is doing. Maintaining the fear factor is crucial in tennis. I say, the more gamesmanship/drama, the better.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 01:47 PM
How many times do we see players say that anyway? Particularly top players. They said 'I didnt play my best but I'm happy with a win' every time they struggle. Somehow its only Serena who gets singled out for criticism, even though its probably the most true in her case.

I would disagree. JHH is also often slammed, by me included, for being 50%, 75%, or 88.365%.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:01 PM
I would disagree. JHH is also often slammed, by me included, for being 50%, 75%, or 88.365%.
It's not that we fans slam her, it's about the establishment or media slamming the other players for doing the exact same thing then we can talk.

No one gives a damn what fans on a tennis board say but when commentators and reporters single them out that's when :bs: needs to be called.

Experimentee
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Yeah Justine says those things all the time, but have we ever heard Werthless mentioning it when she does? No!

joz
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:11 PM
Actually, saying "I played poorly" and saying "I didn't play my best", are two different things. Fact is she may never play her best again. Those day's when she beat-up on V that lopsided win over Amelie a couple of years ago, where she just stared her down... She's got other interests she'll not get back to that level becasue the intesity is not at that level anymore. And that's okay... as people grow up their interests change... I hope she recognizes that it's okay, and that wanting to move on does not take away from her tremendous contribution to the game!!!
And then too, other players have realized if they make her rush her forehand, technique problems are exploited. With Serena's already successful career and now interests in other areas, I'm not sure the forehand technique is worth fixing.

Martian Willow
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:12 PM
It's not that we fans slam her, it's about the establishment or media slamming the other players for doing the exact same thing then we can talk.

No one gives a damn what fans on a tennis board say but when commentators and reporters single them out that's when :bs: needs to be called.

I see. You can talk as much bs as you like (and boy, you do...collectively), but we're still supposed to take you seriously when you accuse other people of it?

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:14 PM
I see. You can talk as much bs as you like (and boy, you do...collectively), but we're still supposed to take you seriously when you accuse other people of it?
Frankly, I don't care what you do. Sorry if I ever gave you the impression that I did. :wavey:

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:15 PM
No. No. No. No.

It's only Serena that is being criticized. Because the poor girl is black. All other WTA players (like Henin, Capriati, Hingis or Spirlea) have a free pass.

Oh the double standard. :sad:

First of all, to keep the conversation on track, I'm only speaking about the USA, where I am from.

Being that I am not Black, I will not presume to explain the Black Experience in America. However, (go ahead and groan now) my best friend is Black. I do know, without growing up a Black child in America, that racism absolutely exists, and Black Americans are treated differently by SOME people. I myself can tell you, as a non-exclusively-White American that it happens, and more specifically, that I even occasionally notice a difference in treatment from people at stores, restaurants, bars when I am with my best friend of 14 years.

But I slightly digress. My point is, that racism exists. We all look at people through our prism of experience and upbringing and make assumptions about them. It would be foolish to say that Serena has not faced racism in the tennis world. I'm not naive enough to think that. But i do think that when you feel your favorite, and by extension, you, are being assailed, and in your past experience, it has been often because of you, or your favorite's race, you begin to see racism even where there is not. But, I understand why.

But, I again digress. My point is that yes racism exists. Yes, Serena has faced it. But, no this is not about racism.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:17 PM
It's not that we fans slam her, it's about the establishment or media slamming the other players for doing the exact same thing then we can talk.

No one gives a damn what fans on a tennis board say but when commentators and reporters single them out that's when :bs: needs to be called.

JHH has been busted on air more than once for the 50, 75 86.265471% thing.....

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Yeah Justine says those things all the time, but have we ever heard Werthless mentioning it when she does? No!

Not Werthwhatever, but other commentators...

Martian Willow
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Frankly, I don't care what you do. Sorry if I ever gave you the impression that I did. :wavey:

If you don't care, why are you posting in this thread? You're just making yourself look silly.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:19 PM
JHH has been busted on air more than once for the 50, 75 86.265471% thing.....
the only time I remember anyone saying anything negative, ie not giving an excuse for it was Ted Robinson at Wimbledon about the French and if I remember correctly John McEnroe and Tracy then gave her excuses for her.

Tell me the times you remember?

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:23 PM
If you don't care, why are you posting in this thread? You're just making yourself look silly.
reread the quote, I said I don't care what "you" do...unless you think you are the representation of everyone on the net you are the one who is looking silly. Cause I don't care what "you" do and if I ever gave you the impression that I did, sorry. :wavey:

So "you" can take me seriously or not...I don't care what "you" do.

What part of those sentences don't you understand?

Also, who elected you representive anyway and what are representing? :scratch:

Tennisfan-Mtl
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:26 PM
i agree with him

So do I :worship:

This "I've played poorly" argument is totally degrading for the other player.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:27 PM
the only time I remember anyone saying anything negative, ie not giving an excuse for it was Ted Robinson at Wimbledon about the French and if I remember correctly John McEnroe and Tracy then gave her excuses for her.

Tell me the times you remember?

Not being a die-hard JHH fan I cannot remember an exact reference. (I believe we tend to Rolladex the quotes of or about our faves, not other players, at least in my case) But, JHH has definitely been skewered more than once for the same thing. To broaden the discussion slightly, can you remember other players who specifically say they did not play their best consistently?

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:31 PM
Yeah Justine says those things all the time, but have we ever heard Werthless mentioning it when she does? No!

I guess because justine is not in the same league as Serena but we already know that.

Joana
Sep 28th, 2004, 02:41 PM
I really doubt Serena cares about this as much as some of you do.

griffin
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:11 PM
Damn, we are bored, aren't we?

Serena could give her opponents more credit in her interviews (directly or by not saying she herself played badly). But then she could also get more credit for the positive things she DOES say about them. Besides, it's not her job to make sure the other women get the credit they deserve.

So he's half right, but so what?

Knizzle
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Serena is used to being in top form and right now she isn't. She's a perfectionist. Just because you win a match doesn't mean you have to be happy with the way you played. From what I hear Serena had more errors than winners. She was down matchpoint 6-4, 5-4. Had Serena played well then this scenario would have never been cause she would have probably been the one up 6-4, 5-4 and if Sveta had played better she probably WOULD have won. I can't remember exactly what Sveta said after the match, but I think she shared that sentiment. Wertheim must have missed that though.

Chriskip
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:26 PM
What exactly are players to say after losses? Most if not all of us know when we have not done our best after a test/exam, match etc. Maybe saying it all the time is not the most "politically correct" thing, but isn't it possible that its the truth? Many persons agree that when Serena is on her game no-one can beat her..........even the players say it. Most of them tell of waiting for her mistakes.

Like someone earlier said "damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Isnt it ironic that after her US Open loss when Venus said that for the first time this year she felt good about her game and felt like her old self, a lot of people were left open-mouthed and in shock seeing that Lindsay had just beaten her easy enough? I understand how she can say that truthfully. The first part of winning starts with having the confidence that you can do it. (Havent most persons agreed that more and more of the players now think they have a chance to beat the sisters and go out there with this confidence that shows in their games?) A strong part of the Williams' game has always been their confidence. To some people it may come off a cocky, but all that is asked is that the same standards be used to judge all the players. Some shouldnt be allowed to say and do rude things and get away with it, while others are chastised.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:43 PM
well, what's your point? :o
that i should pretend i am serena and say what i want her to say???
i'm quirky in many ways, but not in this way. :confused:
No, I said you should say it for her and pretend she said it. That's different from pretending to be her.

But, my point is that you are not in a position to suggest how or what she says in any particular way, because you can't read her mind to know her thought process. You're wasting your time in doing so.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Serena is used to being in top form and right now she isn't. She's a perfectionist. Just because you win a match doesn't mean you have to be happy with the way you played. From what I hear Serena had more errors than winners. She was down matchpoint 6-4, 5-4. Had Serena played well then this scenario would have never been cause she would have probably been the one up 6-4, 5-4 and if Sveta had played better she probably WOULD have won. I can't remember exactly what Sveta said after the match, but I think she shared that sentiment. Wertheim must have missed that though.

Sveta also said she's not use to losing. Just imagine if Serena had said that.

Vass22
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:45 PM
I agre with Wortheim on this.... Did she realy have to say that after winning? For me it says: "Kuznetsova is nothing for me when I'm 100%". "Which, by the way, I'm not sure will ever come" should be added.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Yeah,

and i bet you, out of the 2448 post you submitted, 2440 were smileys! :bounce: :devil:

and that doesn't come out of your ass!

i am being classless but i fail to supass you oh great DeDe4925!
And, you'd lose that bet. Remind me not to go to Vegas with you. :lol:

The thing about your classlessness is that it's in a league all by itself. :devil:

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM
Sveta also said she's not use to losing. Just imagine if Serena had said that.

She has said it.

Justeenium
Sep 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM
When you all realize that Serena at 75% beats the entire tour on any surface, you will see that any time Serena is pushed, it is most likely due to her errors/poor performance. Once you realize that Serena is only being honest, you will no longer see her as arrogant.
http://wtaworld.com/images/smilies/wavey.gif

this is not true. you are being biased cause you are a Rena fan. Serena is more prone to hitting errors than lots of tour players. Kim and Lindsay's best> rena's best, or anyother woman.

did you not watch the wta championships last year?

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Unforced errors are not little elves which suddenly appear out of thin air. An unforced error is caused an error in judgement, a lack of technical skill on a particular shot, or a combination of the two. Everybody makes them - it's not a big deal.

:wavey:
Our point exactly. When you make large number of errors, it's because you're not playing your best. Because when you are playing your best, you don't have as many errors in judgment and/or you position yourself correctly to execute a particular shot. Because let's face it, at this level they are all trained to have the technical skills and drilled endlessly on those techniques for particular shots to perform them correctly, so it's not a lack of technical skill, but a failure to execute for lack of focus or concentration.

Knizzle
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:06 PM
I agre with Wortheim on this.... Did she realy have to say that after winning? For me it says: "Kuznetsova is nothing for me when I'm 100%". "Which, by the way, I'm not sure will ever come" should be added.
If she said that, would it be true or not??

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:08 PM
and ANOTHER thing! due to the "logic" displayed by some members on this board, if Serena said that she didnt play well and the other person did, doesnt that mean that her poor play was CAUSED by the other person playing well!??! isnt that what you people are getting on her back for her supposedly "not" saying.

i mean so many of you guys are saying "doesn't she think that her UEs are caused by the other people"....well if you read her comments and your comments, you would see that she's done exactly what you wanted her to do...so she's perfect, right? :rolleyes:

the amount of intelligence displayed on this board is astounding :eek: </rant>
But, that doesn't make sense. If unforced errors are caused by your opponent, instead of stupid mistakes and/or lack of focus, wouldn't they be called forced errors? :p

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:13 PM
But, that doesn't make sense. If unforced errors are caused by your opponent, instead of stupid mistakes and/or lack of focus, wouldn't they be called forced errors? :p

Definite grey area. UFE are committed by the player, but the opponent can can encourage them by keeping the ball in play, forcing you to hit another shot, giving you different spins, heights, paces of balls.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:16 PM
this is not true. you are being biased cause you are a Rena fan. Serena is more prone to hitting errors than lots of tour players. Kim and Lindsay's best> rena's best, or anyother woman.

did you not watch the wta championships last year?

A pity Kim can't win a slam with her not hitting as many errors as Serena. :tape:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Frankly, I don't care what you do. Sorry if I ever gave you the impression that I did. :wavey:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:18 PM
But, no this is not about racism.
And you know this how?? :confused:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:23 PM
What exactly are players to say after losses? Most if not all of us know when we have not done our best after a test/exam, match etc. Maybe saying it all the time is not the most "politically correct" thing, but isn't it possible that its the truth? Many persons agree that when Serena is on her game no-one can beat her..........even the players say it. Most of them tell of waiting for her mistakes.

Like someone earlier said "damned if they do, damned if they dont.

Isnt it ironic that after her US Open loss when Venus said that for the first time this year she felt good about her game and felt like her old self, a lot of people were left open-mouthed and in shock seeing that Lindsay had just beaten her easy enough? I understand how she can say that truthfully. The first part of winning starts with having the confidence that you can do it. (Havent most persons agreed that more and more of the players now think they have a chance to beat the sisters and go out there with this confidence that shows in their games?) A strong part of the Williams' game has always been their confidence. To some people it may come off a cocky, but all that is asked is that the same standards be used to judge all the players. Some shouldnt be allowed to say and do rude things and get away with it, while others are chastised.
Great post!!! :worship: :worship: :worship:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Definite grey area. UFE are committed by the player, but the opponent can can encourage them by keeping the ball in play, forcing you to hit another shot, giving you different spins, heights, paces of balls.
But, if you focus and concentrate on your technique, the extra balls shouldn't matter and if you lose focus and hit the ball out or into the net it wasn't caused by your opponent, it's because of a lack of concentration. Giving different spins, heights and paces of balls cause forced errors, but if the ball is attainable, the spins heights and pace of the balls shouldn't matter if your technique is correct. I say again, at this level, these players are trained and drilled endlessly on the correct technique to return these shots. Do you play tennis?

jacobruiz
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:35 PM
I for one think that Serena is no less gracious than most other players in most of her comments after a match. She DOES give credit to her opponents.

But I posted: Why can't Serena say every once in a while " she was good but I tried my best and beat her" or "I tried my best but she was too good TODAY". I was promptly told that this "would be a lie".

So why doesn't Serena ever try her best any more? Her results aren't what they were a year and a half ago; maybe if she tried her best to win more often she'd be back up in the rankings where she deserves to be.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:37 PM
But, if you focus and concentrate on your technique, the extra balls shouldn't matter and if you lose focus and hit the ball out or into the net it wasn't caused by your opponent, it's because of a lack of concentration. Giving different spins, heights and paces of balls cause forced errors, but if the ball is attainable, the spins heights and pace of the balls shouldn't matter if your technique is correct. I say again, at this level, these players are trained and drilled endlessly on the correct technique to return these shots. Do you play tennis?

Why, yes I do. 4.5 NTRP before I blew out my shoulder. My point is, if even with correct training and drills, no player is a robot. There is always variation in body movement or timing. If you are able to get 90% of your forehands back in play, the longer the point goes on, the greater the chances you will miss. Also if the balls are coming at you at different paces, speeds, spins, the percentage of returned balls will go down. Ever heard of getting in a groove? It's harder when you don't know what's coming at you. Do you play tennis?

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:39 PM
But, it's funny when Lindsay was rebuilding after her knee surgery, y'all didn't say all this crap. Her play now does not give any inclination on how well she can play. She's trying to do something about it by continuing to play and regain her confidence and skills. Who's trying to rebuild a reputation? She's trying to rebuild her game. It's not about reputation, but game. She's obviously not playing her best, but it's not based on her ranking or race position, it's based on her lack of match play and her injuries. Hell, if that were the case, why is MoMo No.1? This does not give me the idea that she's the best of the best, especially since she hasn't won one slam.
Here's a bad rep from a coward piece of shit, who has a skewed sense of importance himself, but not enough balls to comment in the thread. No, he just goes around giving bad reps to people for having their own opinions about a topic. I mean, I could see if I insulted a player or even another poster in this post, (which I have been guilty of) but a bad rep for this post? :confused:

"Weirthem's nasty commen... Sep 28th, 2004 07:49 AM
veryborednow
oh dear, oh dear. someone really does have a skewed sense of self importance, don't they. "

veryborednow, my suggestion to you is to get a life. It might just prevent the boredom.

:wavey:

dreamgoddess099
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:39 PM
Our point exactly. When you make large number of errors, it's because you're not playing your best. Because when you are playing your best, you don't have as many errors in judgment and/or you position yourself correctly to execute a particular shot. Because let's face it, at this level they are all trained to have the technical skills and drilled endlessly on those techniques for particular shots to perform them correctly, so it's not a lack of technical skill, but a failure to execute for lack of focus or concentration.
:worship: EXACTLY! Serena believes that if she plays her best then she will win and she's right. If some of you had the slightest amount of commonsense you could see why she feels that way. After all, before she got injured and left tour she'd only won 5 of the last 6 slams she'd play including winning 4 in a row. I see why people wonder how she could ever begin to think of herself so highly. :rolleyes: Think about it, it took three different Russians to do what Serena did all by herself. Which is win FO, Wimby, and USO in a row. Except Serena won Wimby and the USO back to back with out dropping a set. When was the last time a player accomplish that feat and if the other players are supposedly so on her level, why didn't they do the same? Forgive Serena for thinking she is the best on tour; she only has the grandslams to prove it. :rolleyes: Or perhaps that is the problem; as good as she is, she actually has the nerve to think she could be better. Such arrogance to want more when you already have so much. You'd almost think the woman was striving to be a future legend or something. The nerve. :rolleyes:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Why, yes I do. 4.5 NTRP before I blew out my shoulder. My point is, if even with correct training and drills, no player is a robot. There is always variation in body movement or timing. If you are able to get 90% of your forehands back in play, the longer the point goes on, the greater the chances you will miss. Also if the balls are coming at you at different paces, speeds, spins, the percentage of returned balls will go down. Ever heard of getting in a groove? It's harder when you don't know what's coming at you. Do you play tennis?
Yes, I play tennis. But, I think we agree that no one is a robot, so if you start to make mistakes, it's not because you don't know what to do with what's coming at you, but that you lose concentration. I've seen Serena in a groove and dozens of other players, when they are able to get everything back and get it in. It means they are in a rhythm of play and are focused and it doesn't matter what's coming at you, you are in the zone. Which is my point exactly. Lack of focus and concentration cause ufe's.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:46 PM
:worship: EXACTLY! Serena believes that if she plays her best then she will win and she's right. If some of you had the slightest amount of commonsense you could see why she feels that way. After all, before she got injured and left tour she'd only won 5 of the last 6 slams she'd play including winning 4 in a row. I see why people wonder how she could ever begin to think of herself so highly. :rolleyes: Think about it, it took three different Russians to do what Serena did all by herself. Which is win FO, Wimby, and USO in a row. Except Serena won Wimby and the USO back to back with out dropping a set. When was the last time a player accomplish that feat and if the other players are supposedly so on her level, why didn't they do the same? Forgive Serena for thinking she is the best on tour; she only has the grandslams to prove it. :rolleyes: Or perhaps that is the problem; as good as she is, she actually has the nerve to think she could be better. Such arrogance to want more when you already have so much. You'd almost think the woman was striving to be a future legend or something. The nerve. :rolleyes:

We all know Serena is the best player on the planet. If she plays her best, she wins. That said, if you were her opponent, wouldn't you be insulted if the said she lost because she played terribly? You would know it, the crowd would know it. She doesn't have to say it. It would be polite and classy (as she usually is) to just say, "Yeah, she beat me." Serena shouldn't have to insult the other players to prove that she is the best. She just needs to win the tournaments.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Yes, I play tennis. But, I think we agree that no one is a robot, so if you start to make mistakes, it's not because you don't know what to do with what's coming at you, but that you lose concentration. I've seen Serena in a groove and dozens of other players, when they are able to get everything back and get it in. It means they are in a rhythm of play and are focused and it doesn't matter what's coming at you, you are in the zone. Which is my point exactly. Lack of focus and concentration cause ufe's.

Why does Serena have so many more UFE's vs Capriati, than the run of the mill WTA player? One part of the equation is what Serena brings to the table, her conc. and focus. The second part of the equation is what the opponent brings to the table, in Capriati's case, food speed, consistency, and spin (partic. at USO). Yes Serena's focus and conc. are important, but it is also because they are tested more by players who can get more balls back at diffierent paces, and to different places in Serena's strike zone.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:54 PM
We all know Serena is the best player on the planet. If she plays her best, she wins. That said, if you were her opponent, wouldn't you be insulted if the said she lost because she played terribly? You would know it, the crowd would know it. She doesn't have to say it. It would be polite and classy (as she usually is) to just say, "Yeah, she beat me." Serena shouldn't have to insult the other players to prove that she is the best. She just needs to win the tournaments.
But, the girl didn't beat her. She won, but she played like shit. Did you see it?? If Serena had said in her interview after this tournament or this match that she played well, I would have :rolleyes: and said Serena please. It would have been a lie. Like someone said, her forehand had a love-affair going on with the middle of the net. She missed easy shots. Shots she created with her serve to get Sveta out of the play and missed them. I don't mean just two or three, but several. It was ugly. Sveta should feel badly, because she should have beaten Serena in straight sets and that's the honest to God truth.

harloo
Sep 28th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Yes, I play tennis. But, I think we agree that no one is a robot, so if you start to make mistakes, it's not because you don't know what to do with what's coming at you, but that you lose concentration. I've seen Serena in a groove and dozens of other players, when they are able to get everything back and get it in. It means they are in a rhythm of play and are focused and it doesn't matter what's coming at you, you are in the zone. Which is my point exactly. Lack of focus and concentration cause ufe's.
Regardless of how you try to break it down, the bottom line for some is that Serena should shut her mouth about her game, while other players continue to makes injury excuses, say they played poorly, or claim they didn't bring their best tennis.

Now thinking about it Venus and Serena are now easier targets because they indeed have been injured and playing poorly because of absence on tour. This is a detractors dream because when they were winning everything they could do nothing.

For the most part, Serena will continue to express herself just like all the players on the WTA Tour. Of course anything that comes out of the sisters mouth's is monitored and disected for any possible arrogance.

I don't know why I was suprised that Weirthless would take a stroll to the trash can with his comments. I thought maybe he had a little more class, but when it comes too remarking on the sisters class seems to elude reporters, retirees, historians, and jealous players.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Why does Serena have so many more UFE's vs Capriati, than the run of the mill WTA player? One part of the equation is what Serena brings to the table, her conc. and focus. The second part of the equation is what the opponent brings to the table, in Capriati's case, food speed, consistency, and spin (partic. at USO). Yes Serena's focus and conc. are important, but it is also because they are tested more by players who can get more balls back at diffierent paces, and to different places in Serena's strike zone.
I agree with part of your analysis, but for the most part, Serena goes for more winners and tries to paint the lines like she did when she was at her best in 2002-2003. Everyone else is just getting balls back, except for Sveta and Maria. The reason she's not getting those winners in like she did in the past is because her concentraction and focus are missing and as a result her footwork is bad, i.e. her technique is off. I believe this is a result of lack of match play and lack of confidence. Serena and Vee have always been tested. JCap has always taken Serena to three sets. Everyone in 2002-2003 played out of their minds when they played the Williams' because they had nothing to lose and because they were at the top, everyone wanted to beat them. So, I don't see any difference now in everyone wanting to win and getting everything back. The only difference is that Serena and Vee have a lost focus on technique and lack a lot of the confidence they once had.

~Cherry*Blossom~
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:05 PM
I don't know why this thread has stretched to 6 pages. Serena is only stating the obvious!!!

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:06 PM
I agree with part of your analysis, but for the most part, Serena goes for more winners and tries to paint the lines like she did when she was at her best in 2002-2003. Everyone else is just getting balls back, except for Sveta and Maria. The reason she's not getting those winners in like she did in the past is because her concentraction and focus are missing and as a result her footwork is bad, i.e. her technique is off. I believe this is a result of lack of match play and lack of confidence. Serena and Vee have always been tested. JCap has always taken Serena to three sets. Everyone in 2002-2003 played out of their minds when they played the Williams' because they had nothing to lose and because they were at the top, everyone wanted to beat them. So, I don't see any difference now in everyone wanting to win and getting everything back. The only difference is that Serena and Vee have a lost focus on technique and lack a lot of the confidence they once had.

And, some of the fear factor is gone. But, it can come back fast.

dreamgoddess099
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:09 PM
But, the girl didn't beat her. She won, but she played like shit. Did you see it?? If Serena had said in her interview after this tournament or this match that she played well, I would have :rolleyes: and said Serena please. It would have been a lie. Like someone said, her forehand had a love-affair going on with the middle of the net. She missed easy shots. Shots she created with her serve to get Sveta out of the play and missed them. I don't mean just two or three, but several. It was ugly. Sveta should feel badly, because she should have beaten Serena in straight sets and that's the honest to God truth. Stop telling the truth before you get in trouble. :lol:

Savior
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Honestly, folks. Do these "nasty" comments really merit a 226 post thread? He even stated right up front that he generally holds Serena in "high regard." Can't a guy make an observation without having his words picked to death and countless, incendiary insinuations applied to them?

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:13 PM
And, some of the fear factor is gone. But, it can come back fast.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. I really don't believe the "fear factor" has anything to do with it. That wasn't a reason why they were so dominant. They were just too good, but no one wants give the sisters credit for that. I'm so tired of hearing about the "fear factor". I agree that that fear from the other players will come back as soon as they get their respective games back, but I don't believe that it will be a factor whether they win matches. Everyone will continue to play them like they have nothing to lose and bring out their best to beat them like they always have.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:14 PM
Stop telling the truth before you get in trouble. :lol:
:lol: :lol: You silly. :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the rep sweetie :kiss: . I can't give any reps now, but as soon as I can, I'm a hook you up. ;)

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. I really don't believe the "fear factor" has anything to do with it. That wasn't a reason why they were so dominant. They were just too good, but no one wants give the sisters credit for that. I'm so tired of hearing about the "fear factor". I agree that that fear from the other players will come back as soon as they get their respective games back, but I don't believe that it will be a factor whether they win matches. Everyone will continue to play them like they have nothing to lose and bring out their best to beat them like they always have.

Fear factor was not THE reason for the sisters dominance, but it was an element. They were/are just too good, and I give them credit for it. And so did their opponents. Many of them, especially other top players moreso than journeywomen pros, went into matches believing they couldn't win.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Fear factor was not THE reason for the sisters dominance, but it was an element. They were/are just too good, and I give them credit for it. And so did their opponents. Many of them, especially other top players moreso than journeywomen pros, went into matches believing they couldn't win.
Well, I'm glad we could end this on a positive note. It was a pretty cool discussion with you.

Do you realize that you have the same ID as someone else on here, only the first letter of her kabuki is in caps. I think it's spelled the same. Anyway, it was pretty confusing when you started to post, because of course you're not the same person, so your writing style is different. ;)

Anyway, see you around. Peace :wavey:

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:23 PM
Well, I'm glad we could end this on a positive note. It was a pretty cool discussion with you.

Do you realize that you have the same ID as someone else on here, only the first letter of her kabuki is in caps. I think it's spelled the same. Anyway, it was pretty confusing when you started to post, because of course you're not the same person, so your writing style is different. ;)

Anyway, see you around. Peace :wavey:

I'm Kabuke's evil twin. Just kidding. :wavey:

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 05:31 PM
Not being a die-hard JHH fan I cannot remember an exact reference. (I believe we tend to Rolladex the quotes of or about our faves, not other players, at least in my case) But, JHH has definitely been skewered more than once for the same thing. To broaden the discussion slightly, can you remember other players who specifically say they did not play their best consistently?
I don't know who does that consistently but that has never been my argument. My argument has been the media commentators don't blast other players for perceived negativity. That negativity can be anything as far as I'm concerned. I don't remember the press calling Amelie to task for some of the questionable things she said about Serena and Venus. I haven't heard them call anyone to task for the negative things said about Williamsx2. That's the problem I have. Why call Serena to task about saying something perceived negative about herself and but not call the people who say things about her to the same task. :shrug:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Here's a bad rep from a coward piece of shit, who has a skewed sense of importance himself, but not enough balls to comment in the thread. No, he just goes around giving bad reps to people for having their own opinions about a topic. I mean, I could see if I insulted a player or even another poster in this post, (which I have been guilty of) but a bad rep for this post? :confused:

"Weirthem's nasty commen... Sep 28th, 2004 07:49 AM
veryborednow
oh dear, oh dear. someone really does have a skewed sense of self importance, don't they. "

veryborednow, my suggestion to you is to get a life. It might just prevent the boredom.

:wavey:
And yet another idgit!

"Weirthem's nasty commen... Sep 28th, 2004 12:28 PM
Elvira
since it bothers u so much.. here u go bitch "

vettipooh
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:15 PM
Serena KNOWS when she played badly! She's her own worst critic.When she plays great, she does not struggle to win, and there's usually no match points to fight off. So when she says she played badly, she's only making an honest assesment. No harm there, unless she turned around and said her opponent also played like shit...them she would be slammed for criticizing them.If she didn't acknowledge that she played badly, she would be called a liar, obnoxious, arrogant, chip on the shoulder thing...all of which she's already been called. White America wants to see more humility from Vee and Serena....after all, "they" let them dominate a white sport.They should be grateful. :rolleyes:.Ain't gonna happen.Wake up folks. Serena does not need anyone to DEFINE who she is...how she plays.. when she plays...why she plays...where she plays.....Writers like Weirthem have a problem with that.....Its caleed "she's out of place".:rolleyes: SERENA WILL NOT BE CONDESCENDING!!!!!

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:23 PM
Serena KNOWS when she played badly! She's her own worst critic.When she plays great, she does not struggle to win, and there's usually no match points to fight off. So when she says she played badly, she's only making an honest assesment. No harm there, unless she turned around and said her opponent also played like shit...them she would be slammed for criticizing them.If she didn't acknowledge that she played badly, she would be called a liar, obnoxious, arrogant, chip on the shoulder thing...all of which she's already been called. White America wants to see more humility from Vee and Serena....after all, "they" let them dominate a white sport.They should be grateful. :rolleyes:.Ain't gonna happen.Wake up folks. Serena does not need anyone to DEFINE who she is...how she plays.. when she plays...why she plays...where she plays.....Writers like Weirthem have a problem with that.....Its caleed "she's out of place".:rolleyes: SERENA WILL NOT BE CONDESCENDING!!!!!
BTW, has anyone gotten in any comments in to Jon Weirthlesspieceofshit's column? I've tried hundreds of times to no avail. Yet, I see repeat commentators posted there and answered. I've also asked his column about that, but have yet to receive an answer.

volta
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:23 PM
oh please get over it. why should she say i played very good when she feels that she didnīt? just because people donīt like her to say i didnīt plyed at my best? well thatīs your problem not Serena get over it

Serena ROCKS

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:24 PM
John worthless is probably reading this thread and laughing his guts out. This is exactly what he wanted. I knew this thread was going to be over 5 pages. If you want to generate controversy just mention Venus and Serena's name and everybody and their mother, father, sister, brother, grandmother, grandfather, black, white, hispanic, asian, Iranian, Iraqi, blind, deaf, hearing impaired comes alive that's how powerful those sisters are. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:25 PM
I think we should do an email campaign to his column, sending hoards of complaints about his comment. If we can all get together to do it here, surely we can bombard him. All we have to do is cut and paste our own comments here to his stupid column.

Martian Willow
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:25 PM
reread the quote, I said I don't care what "you" do...unless you think you are the representation of everyone on the net you are the one who is looking silly. Cause I don't care what "you" do and if I ever gave you the impression that I did, sorry. :wavey:

So "you" can take me seriously or not...I don't care what "you" do.

What part of those sentences don't you understand?

Also, who elected you representive anyway and what are representing? :scratch:

I understand. Now, will you allow me to post my opinions in peace, to be read, appreciated and discussed by the more rational people on the board?

Thanks in advance.

volta
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:27 PM
John worthless is probably reading this thread and laughing his guts out. This is exactly what he wanted. I knew this thread was going to be over 5 pages. If you want to generate controversy just mention Venus and Serena's name and everybody and their mother, father, sister, brother, grandmother, grandfather, black, white, hispanic, asian, Iranian, Iraqi, blind, deaf, hearing impaired comes alive that's how powerful those sisters are. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Amen :worship:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:29 PM
I wouldn't care if Serena ever gave due to Justine, Amelie, Jennifer, Elena, etc. Why should she? These players aren't held accountable for their stupidity and pettiness when it concerns Serena, but Serena is taken to task all because she didn't say enough praiseworthy stuff.
Syndil and kabuki, thanks sweeties. :kiss:
I'm a hook y'all up as soon as they let me. ;)

Chrissie-fan
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:29 PM
Much ado about nothing,or very little anyway in my opinion. Yes,maybe it would be nice if Serena would give more credit to her opponent when she loses and stop the "I can only beat myself" type of comments. But frankly,who cares? Besides,people can upon watching Serena's matches come to their own conlusions what the reasons are for her wins and losses. And it can't be easy to come up with something interesting to say every time you are asked the same old cliche questions. Agassi said it best when he was asked once at a post match press conference,"What happened in the third set?" Agassi: "You tell me. You watched the whole thing. I was too busy playing!"

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:30 PM
We all know Serena is the best player on the planet. If she plays her best, she wins. That said, if you were her opponent, wouldn't you be insulted if the said she lost because she played terribly? You would know it, the crowd would know it. She doesn't have to say it. It would be polite and classy (as she usually is) to just say, "Yeah, she beat me." Serena shouldn't have to insult the other players to prove that she is the best. She just needs to win the tournaments.

You asshole who's she insulting by saying she played terrible she says the same thing whether she win or loses. You do have a problem with the sisters don't you? I can just tell. What is it are you jealous of them, is it that you can't achieve what they have? You are the time of person who would want them to kiss your butt because you are white. It ain't going to happen.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Much ado about nothing,or very little anyway in my opinion. Yes,maybe it would be nice if Serena would give more credit to her opponent when she loses and stop the "I can only beat myself" type of comments. But frankly,who cares? Besides,people can upon watching Serena's matches come to their own conlusions what the reasons are for her wins and losses. And it can't be easy to come up with something interesting to say every time you are asked the same old cliche questions. Agassi said it best when he was asked once at a post match press conference,"What happened in the third set?" Agassi: "You tell me. You watched the whole thing. I was too busy playing!"
:lol: :lol: :lol: good post.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:32 PM
You asshole who's she insulting by saying she played terrible she says the same thing whether she win or loses. You do have a problem with the sisters don't you? I can just tell. What is it are you jealous of them, is it that you can't achieve what they have? You are the time of person who would want them to kiss your butt because you are white. It ain't going to happen.
:lol: :lol: Boggs, read a little further down in the chain of posts. :lol: :lol: And calm down. :lol: :lol:

Peace. :kiss:

tennisluver99
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:42 PM
If the players are only catching up then that means Serena's still the best.

Hmm......let me see how many majors has Serena won this year. Oh that's right a BIG FAT ZERO!!!!!!!!

Yeah, She's the best alright. LOL!!!!!!!!

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 06:56 PM
I think we should do an email campaign to his column, sending hoards of complaints about his comment. If we can all get together to do it here, surely we can bombard him. All we have to do is cut and paste our own comments here to his stupid column.

That's exactly what he wants and that is why he made that comment about Serena.

boggs570
Sep 28th, 2004, 07:03 PM
:lol: :lol: Boggs, read a little further down in the chain of posts. :lol: :lol: And calm down. :lol: :lol:

Peace. :kiss:

I can't calm down you have no idea how pissed I am with these williams sisters haters and jealous bitches.

cheo23
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Yeah her Excuses ARe Gettin So OLD! Like that infamous OH I Played about 9.000 notches comment or at Wimbledon when Maria thrashed her 1 & 4..didn't she say she played about 20% ...Its Like WHATEVER SERENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:37 PM
um someone tell Willow "I Don't Care What she does"...:retard:

Thanks. :wavey:

I've said it twice but it hasn't sunk in...:retard:

Savior
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Good lord. This place is overrun with crazed Serena fanboys. Seriously, there are about 25 million posters here with with her name and face plastered EVERY where. And, that's fine... she's a great player. But, damn if some of you guys don't get all up in people's faces if they even BREATHE a negative comment about her. Chill out. She wouldn't get so worked up if someone said something about YOU.

StarDuvallGrant
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Hmm......let me see how many majors has Serena won this year. Oh that's right a BIG FAT ZERO!!!!!!!!

Yeah, She's the best alright. LOL!!!!!!!!

What's funny is that you obviously don't know how to read.

I was responding to the part where it was written players are catching up to Serena. If they are just catching up, they haven't gotten there yet and therefore Serena would still be the best.

Stuff shouldn't have to be explained this much for you.

tennisfan22
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:49 PM
You would think with the kind of year she had some of her DIVA attitude would have gone away but i guess once a DIVA always a DIVA. Failure hasn't humbled her one bit or so it seems.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:52 PM
I don't know who does that consistently but that has never been my argument. My argument has been the media commentators don't blast other players for perceived negativity. That negativity can be anything as far as I'm concerned. I don't remember the press calling Amelie to task for some of the questionable things she said about Serena and Venus. I haven't heard them call anyone to task for the negative things said about Williamsx2. That's the problem I have. Why call Serena to task about saying something perceived negative about herself and but not call the people who say things about her to the same task. :shrug:

I hear ya regarding equity in treatment. What happened to Hingis for calling Momo half-man? Or did Richard send Tracy Austin an apology for saying some really shitty stuff about her? Or did Tracy Austin apologize for all the inane things she has said over the years?

One thing I must say is that fame is a double edged sword. Serena HAS transcended the sport, which is a credit and testiment to her. But, it also opens her up to more scrutiny than LD, JHH, KC, or basically any other female tennis player with the exception of her sister, Anna K and MAYBE Martina N and Chrissie E. When you become "more and more famous every day," ( :lol: My personal fave Rena quote) you also become more and more of a target.

faste5683
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:56 PM
You are the time of person who would want them to kiss your butt because you are white. It ain't going to happen.

:haha:

Yer killin' me.

:wavey:

Joana
Sep 28th, 2004, 08:59 PM
You asshole who's she insulting by saying she played terrible she says the same thing whether she win or loses. You do have a problem with the sisters don't you? I can just tell. What is it are you jealous of them, is it that you can't achieve what they have? You are the time of person who would want them to kiss your butt because you are white. It ain't going to happen.
Even if that was true (and it isn't) it wouldn't by any means be worse than being obsessed with a tennis player and living a life through her achievements.

kabuki
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:03 PM
You asshole who's she insulting by saying she played terrible she says the same thing whether she win or loses. You do have a problem with the sisters don't you? I can just tell. What is it are you jealous of them, is it that you can't achieve what they have? You are the time of person who would want them to kiss your butt because you are white. It ain't going to happen.

Read my posts again, and then try again. Just about everything you've written is wrong. Except for the fact that I am an asshole. I jump on threads and say rude things to people, jump to conclusions, make assumptions, and plead my case so poorly that I actually make an asshole of myself. Oh, wait. That's you.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:16 PM
I hear ya regarding equity in treatment. What happened to Hingis for calling Momo half-man? Or did Richard send Tracy Austin an apology for saying some really shitty stuff about her? Or did Tracy Austin apologize for all the inane things she has said over the years?

One thing I must say is that fame is a double edged sword. Serena HAS transcended the sport, which is a credit and testiment to her. But, it also opens her up to more scrutiny than LD, JHH, KC, or basically any other female tennis player with the exception of her sister, Anna K and MAYBE Martina N and Chrissie E. When you become "more and more famous every day," ( :lol: My personal fave Rena quote) you also become more and more of a target.
I seriously doubt Richard plans to apologize to Tracy as I'm sure she has no plans to apologize to him.

Yes, there is negativity with stardom, no doubt. However, there should be also be some professional responsibilty to be objective. Sometimes I wonder if when speaking about or writing about a Williams if that is just thrown out the window.

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:30 PM
What's funny is that you obviously don't know how to read.

I was responding to the part where it was written players are catching up to Serena. If they are just catching up, they haven't gotten there yet and therefore Serena would still be the best.

Stuff shouldn't have to be explained this much for you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

faste5683
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by faste5683:

Unforced errors are not little elves which suddenly appear out of thin air. An unforced error is caused an error in judgement, a lack of technical skill on a particular shot, or a combination of the two. Everybody makes them - it's not a big deal.



Our point exactly. When you make large number of errors, it's because you're not playing your best. Because when you are playing your best, you don't have as many errors in judgment and/or you position yourself correctly to execute a particular shot. Because let's face it, at this level they are all trained to have the technical skills and drilled endlessly on those techniques for particular shots to perform them correctly, so it's not a lack of technical skill, but a failure to execute for lack of focus or concentration.

I disagree, Dee. When you are making a large number of errors (UE), you are screwing up by making poor choices in shot selection, i.e., going for a winner when there isn't a chance for one; displaying a lack of technical skill on a particular shot (even pros have weaknessness) and/or improper footwork. Any one of these factors can cause one to "not play their best." There are ways to improve your game *during*
a match, such as getting back to basics, not going for the lines, etc. This is also applicable in a strategic sense. If you're getting killed because your opponent's forehand is twice as good as yours, then don't hit there anymore. :eek:

There is another side to this. If you continually say that you played below your level (whether you win or lose), people are going to start wondering if you've ever had a good day in your career.

Buddy One: "Hey! Faste won in two straight sets last nite!!"

Buddy Two: (Looking impressed): Wow! He musta played like shit!

:wavey:

DeDe4925
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I seriously doubt Richard plans to apologize to Tracy as I'm sure she has no plans to apologize to him.

Yes, there is negativity with stardom, no doubt. However, there should be also be some professional responsibilty to be objective. Sometimes I wonder if when speaking about or writing about a Williams if that is just thrown out the window.
Can someone fill me in? I never did hear what Richard said about Tracy that had everyone up in arms.

Rocketta
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Can someone fill me in? I never did hear what Richard said about Tracy that had everyone up in arms.
He said he thought Tracy was trying to come between him and his daughters and that she probably had a bad childhood to want to do that in a nutshell. :)

pisces
Sep 28th, 2004, 09:39 PM
No more then Sveltles,saying she be more fit,the next time she play Serena.If one feel"s that way,about one self,so be it