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Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 03:09 PM
Presently watching the closing arguments for the Andrea Yates case on television. CNN to percise! It is soo sad and tragic! I really feel like she is legally insane. I do feel sad for the children, and I feel sad for her. This jury has some diffucult questions to answer. I hope that they make the right decision.

Tammy
Mar 12th, 2002, 03:14 PM
idk what wrong with her see seems fine at moments but when u look at what she did idk.. and her husband is just a whole different story..

.. all i know is she should have to pay for what she did those poor kids :sad:

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 03:27 PM
I think that I have to turn this off. It's more than I can handle.

Tammy
Mar 12th, 2002, 03:40 PM
oh man the closing arguments are making me sick.. i am sorry but i have no pity for her she killed her 5 kids... and ick i cannot have any sympathy for her and her attourney is just trying to rack up sympothy points with the jury..

.. personally i don't buy it at all...

her poor kids :sad:

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 05:05 PM
As someone who would love to be a mother, I have a hard time understanding what would drive any woman to kill her children. I do believe that Yates should be found guilty. She knew what she was doing and in fact, Yates stated that she called the police after drowning her children because "that is who you call when you do something wrong." Personally, I also feel that her husband should also take some blame since he left his children with a woman, whom he knew to be mentally ill.

All in all, it is a very tragic situation.:sad:

griffin
Mar 12th, 2002, 05:17 PM
Don't you think it's possible to be horrified at what happened to those kids AND believe Yates to have been insane at the time? They really aren't mutually exclusive.

We're not talking about someone's who's just a little moody, or who gets depressed now and then, we're talking about a women with a long and frightening history of mental illness. She's been suicidal. She's been hospitalized. She and her husband were advised (after the birth of their 3rd? child) that she should NOT have any more children because it literally made her crazy.

Yes, she knew what she did was against the law, but in her tortured mind she believed what she did was in the children's best intest.

Mercy isn't mere sympathy and justice isn't the same as revenge.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 05:26 PM
Well, maybe I have taken an interest in this case because I know someone in my life that is suffering from the same condition that Andrea Yates is suffering from. I am not excusing what Andrea Yates did, there is no excuse for it! All I am saying is that it is not as simple as it first appears. The person I know has a problem thinking like the rest of us. For whatever reason, they really don't know the difference between right and wrong in the same context that the rest of us do. I believe that Andrea Yates believed she was doing the right thing, for whatever reasons. Her thinking was obviously faulty. There again, I must say that I am not excusing what Andrea Yates did. It is wrong! It is very sick.

If the jury finds Andrea Yates Not Guilty By Reason Of Insanity, she will not be out walking the streets. She will be confined to a hospital where she will get the help she needs. She, likely, will be there the rest of her life.

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by griffin
Don't you think it's possible to be horrified at what happened to those kids AND believe Yates to have been insane at the time? They really aren't mutually exclusive.

We're not talking about someone's who's just a little moody, or who gets depressed now and then, we're talking about a women with a long and frightening history of mental illness. She's been suicidal. She's been hospitalized. She and her husband were advised (after the birth of their 3rd? child) that she should NOT have any more children because it literally made her crazy.

Yes, she knew what she did was against the law, but in her tortured mind she believed what she did was in the children's best intest.

Mercy isn't mere sympathy and justice isn't the same as revenge.

Great post Griffin. I have sympathy for Yates mental illness and I also feel anger that her problems were not correctly addressed in time to save herself and her children. However, despite Yates history of mental illness, I do believe that she understood what she was doing and that she needed to be punished for it. In that sense, Yates understand right from wrong and accordingly, she should receive the maximum sentence for her crimes.

Am I unjust for making these statements? I agree that I am. However, I am not looking just at Andrea Yates here. I am looking at the 5 children whose lives she took without mercy. These children will never have the opportunity to grow up and that is the real tragedy here.

griffin
Mar 12th, 2002, 05:59 PM
apoet29, I do understand where you are coming from. And please know that I haven't lost sight of those children and what happened to them. But again, nothing we do now - not to Andrea Yates or anyone else, will bring them back to life or render their deaths less horrible.

To say someone "knew what they did was wrong" strikes me as a false - or at least a misleading - rationalization. Haven't you ever done something you knew was "wrong" (would be disapproved of, coud get you in trouble) to accomplish an end you felt was just? Maybe lied to protect someone? Maybe broke a rule or law you felt was wrong or unjust?

Yates did know what she did was against the law, but in her psychosis, she also believed that she was saving her children's souls from hell. She felt that because of her failings as a parent she would not be able to protect them from evil, and that by killing them now while they were still innocent she would save them from eternal damnation.

What person in their right mind could think and believe such a thing? No one, and that's the point.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 06:05 PM
Grif, thanks for helping to clarify what I was thinking here. These is not an easy case. What happened to those children is indeed horrifying, but I do contend that Andrea Yates was not capable of reasoning as the rest of us do at that time! She fully believed she was doing the right thing. It was faulty thinking at best, but I feel that is what she believed.

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by griffin
apoet29, I do understand where you are coming from. And please know that I haven't lost sight of those children and what happened to them. But again, nothing we do now - not to Andrea Yates or anyone else, will bring them back to life or render their deaths less horrible.

To say someone "knew what they did was wrong" strikes me as a false - or at least a misleading - rationalization. Haven't you ever done something you knew was "wrong" (would be disapproved of, coud get you in trouble) to accomplish an end you felt was just? Maybe lied to protect someone? Maybe broke a rule or law you felt was wrong or unjust?

Yates did know what she did was against the law, but in her psychosis, she also believed that she was saving her children's souls from hell. She felt that because of her failings as a parent she would not be able to protect them from evil, and that by killing them now while they were still innocent she would save them from eternal damnation.

What person in their right mind could think and believe such a thing? No one, and that's the point.

In answer to your questions, yes I have done things that are wrong and attempted to rationalize them as just. However, Yates rationale for killing her children is not one I can accept or understand and it causes me to have a difficult time feeling sorry for her. Unfortunately, this case has affected me very deeply and I have allowed my own bias to interfere with logical reasoning. I do see your point about Andrea Yates. However, the mental health profession has failed her once and I have to wonder how much help that they can be to her now.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 08:12 PM
Well, you are right in the assumption that the mental health system can't change what happened. But let's not forget that there is a broader failing here. What about her husband? Certainley he knew that she was "ill". And, as Griffin pointed out, the Doctors pointed out after the birth of the 3rd child that she should not have anymore children, and yet, they did. Her husband played a part in that. And don't you think that he should have been more diligent in getting her the help she needed? Made sure she was taking her medication? He could have even made sure someone was there during the day with her, while he was at work! But he did not. Did he not fail her? Did he not fail his children? And what about "the family and friends"? Those who were close to her, knew of her illness and her problems. Yet, I do not see where they were of any help to her. As much as anything else, this was a cry for help from Andrea Yates. Maybe now she will get the help she needs. It was not just a case of the mental health system failing Andrea Yates, I think everyone in Andrea Yates life failed to act on the warning signs of which there were many.

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
Well, you are right in the assumption that the mental health system can't change what happened. But let's not forget that there is a broader failing here. What about her husband? Certainley he knew that she was "ill". And, as Griffin pointed out, the Doctors pointed out after the birth of the 3rd child that she should not have anymore children, and yet, they did. Her husband played a part in that. And don't you think that he should have been more diligent in getting her the help she needed? Made sure she was taking her medication? He could have even made sure someone was there during the day with her, while he was at work! But he did not. Did he not fail her? Did he not fail his children? And what about "the family and friends"? Those who were close to her, knew of her illness and her problems. Yet, I do not see where they were of any help to her. As much as anything else, this was a cry for help from Andrea Yates. Maybe now she will get the help she needs. It was not just a case of the mental health system failing Andrea Yates, I think everyone in Andrea Yates life failed to act on the warning signs of which there were many.

I totally agree with you and I stated as much in my first post. I do think that Yates husband should be held to some responsibility for the murders of his children. From an article that I read in Time magazine, Yates husband did recognize his wife's severe mental illness. However, his rigid way of thinking got in the way of what would be the best treatment for Andrea. Mr. Yates wanted a large family and he felt that Andrea's proper place was in the home-having children and taking care of them. Other members of the family tried to help, but they did not recognize or did not want to recognize Andrea's severe mental problems. The reason I stated that the mental health profession failed Andrea is because these professionals knew the family situation and did not help Andrea and her husband resolve these issues.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 09:05 PM
But the mental health system were not the only ones to fail Andrea. I think that maybe, just maybe, she can now get the help she needs. It took an extraoridnarily tragic set of events to get here. It may have been the only way to get her husbands attention. But maybe, just maybe, Andrea Yates can get the help she needs. But, I think that you are begginnig to see that this is more than a black and white case. There is far more in question than "Did Andrea Yates Kill her children?" Yes, she did. Yes, it's tragic. The question is: "Did Andrea Yates Know That Was She Was Doing, Was Wrong?" I claim, in her frame of mind, no she did not. Under the given set of circumstances, domineering husband, post-partum depression, and the particular psychosis she was suffering from, I think she felt she was doing the right thing.

Apoet, when you have a mental illness like this, your grasp of reality is very, very fragile under the best of circumstances. You add the stress of 5 chideren, and a domineering husband into the mix. Then you throw in no help. Well, you have a recipe for disaster! Yes, Andrea did the deed, but her husband set the stage.

Kisha
Mar 12th, 2002, 09:22 PM
barrie, my darling, check your pm's!:)

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Kisha
barrie, my darling, check your pm's!:)
I HAVE!

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
But the mental health system were not the only ones to fail Andrea. I think that maybe, just maybe, she can now get the help she needs. It took an extraoridnarily tragic set of events to get here. It may have been the only way to get her husbands attention. But maybe, just maybe, Andrea Yates can get the help she needs. But, I think that you are begginnig to see that this is more than a black and white case. There is far more in question than "Did Andrea Yates Kill her children?" Yes, she did. Yes, it's tragic. The question is: "Did Andrea Yates Know That Was She Was Doing, Was Wrong?" I claim, in her frame of mind, no she did not. Under the given set of circumstances, domineering husband, post-partum depression, and the particular psychosis she was suffering from, I think she felt she was doing the right thing.

Apoet, when you have a mental illness like this, your grasp of reality is very, very fragile under the best of circumstances. You add the stress of 5 chideren, and a domineering husband into the mix. Then you throw in no help. Well, you have a recipe for disaster! Yes, Andrea did the deed, but her husband set the stage.

Dear Barrie:

I am trying to have empathy for Ms. Yates. I understand mental illness very well since bipolar disorder runs in my family. I realize that I seem rigid in my thinking by stating that Yates should be punished and that the system failed her. I don't mean to sound unkind or inconsiderate to this woman's obvious sufferings nor do I want to be seen as someone pinpointing blame on an overworked mental health system. I do agree with you that Mr. Yates deserves to be punished for mishandling the situation, but can the entire blame be pinned on him? I think that would be unfair since mental health professionals and family members recognized Andrea's problems, yet failed to help her. Someone, a mental health professional or a family member, should have stepped in at some point and put a stop to this situation. No one did and five children are dead. Hopefully, Andrea's situation will become a case study for mental health professionals, so this will not happen again.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 11:32 PM
Aaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!! Apoet29! Please reread my posts! I am saying that Mr. Yates and her family should share the blame along with the mental health system! As I said, Andrea's actions were as much a cry for HELP! as anything else! I think that now, and only now, can she get the help she needs! I am not excusing what she did, I just want people to open their minds and consider this from another point of view! Do you really think that putting this woman in jail, or worse, in the electric chair going to solve a darn thing? There is NOTHING anyone can do to bring those children back! There is NOTHING that anyone can do to undo the mistakes anyone made! But, to put this woman in the Electric Chair would put any progress made in the mental health system back a thousand years! When are people going to realize that mental illness is a viable illness and needs treatment?
People are so ANAL when it comes to this sort of thing! Things need to change! Mental illness needs to be taken seriously and not simply dismissed! Most mental illness can be treated if people can get access to proper care! But if we just dismiss things like this, than nothing will be done! The only reason to put Andrea Yates in the electric chair is because it is convienient. She can die for the mistakes of her husband, her family and the mental health system. That is the ONLY reason. It is also the reason those children died. They died for the failings of the mental health system. the Yates family and Mr. Yates. So, if the State kills Andrea Yates, they are no better than Andrea Yates Killing Her Children! :fiery: :fiery: :fiery:

Celeste
Mar 12th, 2002, 11:35 PM
Well, I guess it's all moot now, because the jury has convicted her. So, it's on to the penalty phase, i.e. death or life in prison. I support the death penalty in certain cases, but Susan Smith cheated it, and she seems a whole lot more sane than this woman. I don't think I'd support it here, I mean, she didn't kill her kids to run off with a guy or get insurance money.

I don't know the legal standard for insanity in Texas, whether it's right from wrong, or another one, because some states have ones that aren't simply right from wrong. I didn't hear the case and all the testimony or how the jury instructions read, so I don't know how I would have found. If I'd murdered my children, I wouldn't want to live anyway, but I'm not insane (well, not yet, and not like in the criminal law sense).

What has remained unanswered for me is why she had more kids after sort of being told not to. The woman was seriously disturbed pre-kids. I got the impression her husband, and maybe even she, is/are religious fanatics, so maybe they didn't believe in birth control or something. I don't know. All I can say is, as a mother, that having a small baby around can sort of put you in a weird place mentally at certain moments. You lose track of time and reality sometimes when you can't do normal adult things for weeks at a time because they are too little for you to do anything else. I can't imagine having the number of children she did in such a short time, I mean, that would be a challenge for a "normal" person, much less someone who was already disturbed. It's a sad case, needless to say.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 11:36 PM
OMG!:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

Barrie_Dude
Mar 12th, 2002, 11:47 PM
:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
I Weep For The Children
I Weep For The Failings Of The Mental Health System
I Weep For The Failings Of The Yates Family.
I Weep For The Failings Of Russell Yates
I Weep Fo The Poor, Misguided People That Convicted Andrea Yates
I Weep For Andrea Yates
But I Weep Mostly For The Mentally Ill People, Who Cry Out For Help Everyday, And Will Not Be Able To Get The Help They Need!
:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

apoet29
Mar 12th, 2002, 11:47 PM
Barrie-I did read your posts. Basically, you and I were saying the same things in different ways. Everyone is to blame here for not recognizing Yates illness.

It is sad that Andrea got convicted. I heard on CNN this morning that Texas has stricter laws governing the insanity defense than most states.

My best wishes are extended to the Yates family and their extended family and friends at this time.:sad:

Barrie_Dude
Mar 13th, 2002, 03:39 PM
I have an ex girlfriend in Florida that not only has many of the same mannerisims as Andrea Yates, but looks very much like her. Could this be why I take it so personally? :sad:

apoet29
Mar 13th, 2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Barrie_Dude
I have an ex girlfriend in Florida that not only has many of the same mannerisims as Andrea Yates, but looks very much like her. Could this be why I take it so personally? :sad:

I'm so sorry! I did not realize that. Of course, that could be the reason this has affected you so greatly.

I got your email. I'll talk to you soon.

Barrie_Dude
Mar 13th, 2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Celeste
Well, I guess it's all moot now, because the jury has convicted her. So, it's on to the penalty phase, i.e. death or life in prison. I support the death penalty in certain cases, but Susan Smith cheated it, and she seems a whole lot more sane than this woman. I don't think I'd support it here, I mean, she didn't kill her kids to run off with a guy or get insurance money.

I don't know the legal standard for insanity in Texas, whether it's right from wrong, or another one, because some states have ones that aren't simply right from wrong. I didn't hear the case and all the testimony or how the jury instructions read, so I don't know how I would have found. If I'd murdered my children, I wouldn't want to live anyway, but I'm not insane (well, not yet, and not like in the criminal law sense).

What has remained unanswered for me is why she had more kids after sort of being told not to. The woman was seriously disturbed pre-kids. I got the impression her husband, and maybe even she, is/are religious fanatics, so maybe they didn't believe in birth control or something. I don't know. All I can say is, as a mother, that having a small baby around can sort of put you in a weird place mentally at certain moments. You lose track of time and reality sometimes when you can't do normal adult things for weeks at a time because they are too little for you to do anything else. I can't imagine having the number of children she did in such a short time, I mean, that would be a challenge for a "normal" person, much less someone who was already disturbed. It's a sad case, needless to say.

Yes, it is all very distubing. There were many cries for help along the way, and it seems as though those people close to Andrea Yates failed to take them seriously. If they had stopped having children after 3. If Mr Yates had made sure that there was someone there to help Andrea with her children. If he had made sure that his wife had the proper care in the mental health system, I feel that none of this would have happenen. He might today be the father of 3 heathy children in stead of 5 dead children. It is all so very tragic. And this really makes a statement about the failings of our society.