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CJ07
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:48 PM
That last game was hard to watch.

But after that last forehand went out, I thought, ok something has to give.

But what? I've always maintained that it was all in Venus's head. And that while better technique would help, it wasn't contingent for her to return to the top.

But I'm starting to wonder. Venus's forehand is so off and on. The swing just looks akward. And her serve could be soo much better. Lindsay proved that its better to hit 80% at 105 than 50% of 110.

Should she get a new coach? Should she tell Bonnie to take over Vstarr for a few months? A little of the above?

What does Venus need to do to get to the top?

*This is not meant to take anything away from Lindsay, who played near flawlessly*

Foot_Fault
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:50 PM
It's simple, Venus played well, Davenport played better. Venus had 5 chances that last game and fell prone to errors or a winner.

it's tennis some win, some lose. It's Davenports Summer, you have to give it up to her.

Hopefully Venus will work hard this off season and come back strong in 2005. She's still my #1 Fav

bmxbandit
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:50 PM
Her problem is still mental. Confidence just isn't there. Have you seen some of her forehand winners? She had 22, Davy had 8 (forehand winners only).

Unfortunately, I am not smart enough to say what she should do.

Knizzle
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:51 PM
She needs to execute, all those short balls on the BH and FH side dumped into the net or hit long.

gweeny
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:52 PM
I think hiring a new coach for a little while might help. I think with improvement on her serve and forehand the confidence will come.

Everyone (commentators and fans) think she needs to improve her flawed technique. I hope she heeds to the advice. If not, she will just remain a 4 slam champ.

CraigC
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:52 PM
I agree with what Tracy Austin has been saying all week...It's time for Venus to look to someone outside the family to help her with the forehand, second serve and how to construct points. Her mother and father have done a great job with both girls, but they need help from someone else as a lot of players have caught up to Venus and Serena's power, and just aren't afraid of them anymore.

cheo23
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:52 PM
She should get an experienced Coach to teach her how to hit a Forehand Properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 HER Technique Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 Poor THing! LOL

BigTennisFan
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:53 PM
That last game was hard to watch.

But after that last forehand went out, I thought, ok something has to give.

But what? I've always maintained that it was all in Venus's head. And that while better technique would help, it wasn't contingent for her to return to the top.

But I'm starting to wonder. Venus's forehand is so off and on. The swing just looks akward. And her serve could be soo much better. Lindsay proved that its better to hit 80% at 105 than 50% of 110.

Should she get a new coach? Should she tell Bonnie to take over Vstarr for a few months? A little of the above?

What does Venus need to do to get to the top?



*This is not meant to take anything away from Lindsay, who played near flawlessly*
Lindsay did play great. Especially her serving. But Venus has said that she doesn't want a coach who is going to talk about tennis all the time. So she's kind of stuck with Richard and Oracene who clearly can't fix the problem. Maybe Venus doesn't mind staying where she is.

Some folks stay in denial. Hingis was in denial about her serve. Oh well....

Stamp Paid
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Fix her fucking forehand.

Black Mamba.
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Lindsay played better, the difference in the match was she broke Vee's serve twice. Vee is too talented to lose due to her forehand, she was playing so well and her game was fairly clean, but as usual when points got tight her forehand let her down.

CJ07
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:55 PM
While Lindsay beat Venus, Venus was out there really not picking up on what was going on.

Why she stands inside the baseline when she's not returning serves is beyond me.

John McEnroe made a point saying two things.

1) Venus moves her body too much when hitting her shots. She needs to stay in her tuck and finish the stroke, BEFORE moving to the center court
2) Venus needs not to try to hit a flat forehand from random spots in the court, its not neccesary
3) Venus needs to moderate her shots untill the the right time

However I did see some positives
1) Venus accelerating on her 2nd serve
2) Venus at least going for the forehand (although often at the wrong time)
3) Venus coming to net (though she stopped in the 2nd)

cool bird
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Venus I hope does two things this year. Play a lot in the indoor season she will build confidence for it each win she gets.

Also which we know she wont do hire a new coach. That last game show glimes of Venus of old but her low confidence did not ler her out the game to bed.

UDiTY
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:58 PM
Hopefully Venus will take some good things away from the match,

Lindsay was on fire, but Venus hung in there. She should gain some confidence, especially if Lindz kills to the title.

Tough match Vee...but you got plenty of time to improve. DON'T give up:yeah:

CJ07
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:58 PM
Venus was playing hit or miss tennis.

But the difference between this years hit and miss and that of 2000, 2001, and even 2002 for that matter, hell even 2003, she waited untill the appropriate time.

She hit some crazy winners, but It doesn't make sense to hit 3 or 4 wow shots when you sacrifice 10 shanks

CJ07
Sep 6th, 2004, 11:59 PM
I wonder if Richard or Oracene have ASKED Venus whether or not she'd want outside help

DemWilliamsGulls
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:00 AM
I'm sorry but i caught a glimpse of the OLD SCHOOL VENUS comming back...Lindsay played a solid game...but Venus put out a lot of unforced errors that helped Lindsay as well. Towards the end...Venus started getting old school on Lindsay...and i was proud of the way she played....If Serena looses I hope Lindsay or Capriati goes on to win..but moreso Lindsay because she is a good player.....but all Venus needs to work on is her forehand and her First serve and she will be back busting heads like she was a last year....

silverwhite
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:00 AM
Besides obviously improving her forehand and second serve, she should come to the net more. She won 12 out of 13 points at the net. That's 92%!

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:01 AM
just needs to get confidence ;)

Janet
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:03 AM
Oh, will venus lost linsday win we need to move on only a game, I have serena in the tourament still so I have at least 1 more williams left until next year for venus 2005 she still my girl..........

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:05 AM
I hope that Venus does not let this set her back. The most important thing to Venus right now is confidence.
She will only get that with match play. If Venus will not get a new coach you have to work around things. Sam Smith said that it was the major factor in that match, and that she feel like Venus is maybe two or three mouths away from her best tennis, she just has to play more matches

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Listen to you people. First the complaint was she's not being aggressive. In this match she was aggressive all the way. She made so many errors on her forehand but every time that ball came to that side she smacked it just like it was a backhand. That's the Venus I know. In so many matches venus has allowed her opponents ot beat her, this time she made Lindsay beat her. Lindsay came up with what she needed at the right times that is simply too good. And we saw that fight in Venus again. She lost yes that is disappointing, but there is nothing wrong with her game, that same game, contrary to popular belief got her to number one and 4 grandslams. She doesn't need to change it.

thelittlestelf
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:08 AM
She should get an experienced Coach to teach her how to hit a Forehand Properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 HER Technique Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 Poor THing! LOL
Do you think you used enough exclamation points? :lol:

starr
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:08 AM
I hope that Venus does not let this set her back. The most important thing to Venus right now is confidence.
She will only get that with match play. If Venus will not get a new coach you have to work around things. Sam Smith said that it was the major factor in that match, and that she feel like Venus is maybe two or three mouths away from her best tennis, she just has to play more matches
I agree. Venus needs more tough match play under her belt to get back to where she once was.

I wonder if this will happen or if she will go on hiatus following the U.S. Open.

UDiTY
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:08 AM
Listen to you people. First the complaint was she's not being aggressive. In this match she was aggressive all the way. She made so many errors on her forehand but every time that ball came to that side she smacked it just like it was a backhand. That's the Venus I know. In so many matches venus has allowed her opponents ot beat her, this time she made Lindsay beat her. Lindsay came up with what she needed at the right times that is simply too good. And we saw that fight in Venus again. She lost yes that is disappointing, but there is nothing wrong with her game, that same game, contrary to popular belief got her to number one and 4 grandslams. She doesn't need to change it.
Yer right...Vee was really aggressive and I liked it. She took that forehand and spanked it. Her forehand cross-court was amazing tonight. The passing shot in the last game:hearts:

Lindsay was just too good...*and vee made a few too many, untimely errors:p

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:10 AM
VW1 Venus does need to impove her game. the tour has moved on and so must she. there is no room for standing still in wta or you are going backwards

thelittlestelf
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:10 AM
I'm sorry but i caught a glimpse of the OLD SCHOOL VENUS comming back...Lindsay played a solid game...but Venus put out a lot of unforced errors that helped Lindsay as well. Towards the end...Venus started getting old school on Lindsay...and i was proud of the way she played....If Serena looses I hope Lindsay or Capriati goes on to win..but moreso Lindsay because she is a good player.....but all Venus needs to work on is her forehand and her First serve and she will be back busting heads like she was a last year....
I agree, Venus was like her old self at the end there! Maybe that will carry over to her next match :D.

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:13 AM
Give Venus a break! :rolleyes:

She just played the HOTTEST player on tour who has won 21 consecutive matches, including 2 (now 3) against venus and one against serena.

She gets broken like 5 times two days ago, and then she gets broken TWICE today and you guys still complain? :rolleyes:

Lindsay is one of the best returners, if not THE best. On top of that, Lindsay served amazingly today, yet Venus was able to hang in there, almost level the match. Don't expect Venus' forehand to magically be great a day after a match where it was off.

Please...

WF4EVER
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:14 AM
What do we want Venus to do?

Nothing. She lost three times in a row to Lindsay; she should feel honoured to lose again to a woman she's dominated for over three years. Why should she do anything? There is nothing wrong with her game.

Let all those fuckers like Tracy Austin, Pam Shriver, et al have their own opinions about her getting help for improving her forehand. They don't know shit.

Venus is doing great just the way she is, all the way to the losing-thrice-in-a-row circle.

When someone with obvious flaws says nothing is wrong, don't expect any better.

If Venus could play the way she played today without additional coaching, I can't fathom what a little help would do for her, but when ignorance is bliss they say it's folly to be wise.

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:15 AM
Listen to you people. First the complaint was she's not being aggressive. In this match she was aggressive all the way. She made so many errors on her forehand but every time that ball came to that side she smacked it just like it was a backhand. That's the Venus I know. In so many matches venus has allowed her opponents ot beat her, this time she made Lindsay beat her. Lindsay came up with what she needed at the right times that is simply too good. And we saw that fight in Venus again. She lost yes that is disappointing, but there is nothing wrong with her game, that same game, contrary to popular belief got her to number one and 4 grandslams. She doesn't need to change it.

The complaint is not that she's not aggressive enough, the complaint is that her forehand and second serve are technically flawed and this means they break down under pressure. They have done this consistently throughout 2004. Yes, there were flashes of brilliance tonight, but they've been present all year too - Venus is still a hugely talented player. But if she doesn't work seriously on fixing the flaws in her game, her 2004 results will become her norm.

Martina Hingis's game, weak second serve and all, got her to number one and 5 Slams. Lindsay Davenport's game, poor movement and all, got her to number one and 3 Slams. Maria and Nastya have both won Slams this year while still having significant weaknesses in their games. In tennis, you need to keep improving all the time.

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:16 AM
Venus played Wonderfully it was much improved....Lindsay played better....Hats off to Lindsay..:hatoff:

I'm very happy with where Venus' game is right now...I just hope she doesn't take a break and goes on to play many matches during the indoor season..She's healthy and she needs to build on this match..

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:18 AM
What do we want Venus to do?

Nothing. She lost three times in a row to Lindsay; she should feel honoured to lose again to a woman she's dominated for over three years. Why should she do anything? There is nothing wrong with her game.

Let all those fuckers like Tracy Austin, Pam Shriver, et al have their own opinions about her getting help for improving her forehand. They don't know shit.

Venus is doing great just the way she is, all the way to the losing-thrice-in-a-row circle.

When someone with obvious flaws says nothing is wrong, don't expect any better.

If Venus could play the way she played today without additional coaching, I can't fathom what a little help would do for her, but when ignorance is bliss they say it's folly to be wise.

:worship:

I can't believe some of her fans are still in denial over the state of her game. It's like they've forgotten what Venus is capable of... they've lowered their expectations so much. You know, Lindsay hasn't changed her game one iota from when Venus owned her. She's more confident and more willing to fight, and that's it.

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:18 AM
I agree. Venus needs more tough match play under her belt to get back to where she once was.

I wonder if this will happen or if she will go on hiatus following the U.S. Open.

Venus would be making a huge mistake if she did that. The one thing I saw from Venus tonight was desire. It looked like she was enjoying being on the tennis court agin. And I have not seen that from Venus a lot over the past few years really.

Now I hope Venus does not let that desire burn away after loseing that match. All you have to do is look at Hewitt the disire is back and that will lead to the tennis comeing back.

I have feeling if Venus does play the indoor season to its full, it will help her no end for 2005. There maybe some hard losses for Venus to more top ten players. But she has to stick in and dig in and fight, And we will see the results

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:18 AM
Venus played Wonderfully it was much improved....Lindsay played better....Hats off to Lindsay..:hatoff:

I'm very happy with where Venus' game is right now...I just hope she doesn't take a break and goes on to play many matches during the indoor season..She's healthy and she needs to build on this match..
definitely agree...she can take more out of this match than in her 3 wins here ;)

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:18 AM
VW1 Venus does need to impove her game. the tour has moved on and so must she. there is no room for standing still in wta or you are going backwards

I don't think that's what the problem has been for either Williams Sister. I think that these girls are going out there and playing them with full confidence and that is new for both sisters. Before venus was out for 6 months, she knew she could afford to have a lapse in concentration and still beat Lindsay in a third set. Serena knew that she could just phone in the first set, because Jennifer would tighten up midway through the second. That's how good both sisters were. They still are that good it's just they need to get used to maybe playing a 7-5 set in every match. They can no longer afford those lapses in concentration because all these girls now believe that if they get that small opening they can win. It's not their game that needs fixing, it's their approach to the game.

bandabou
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:19 AM
Actually Venus played well...only a lose game cost her the first set...but Venus is gonna have nightmares of that backhand in the net in that last game. That error is UNFORGIVABLE!!! No way..thatīs her money shot.

But I think there wasnīt much Venus could do today....Lindsay serving at 70 % and in this form, you ainīt gonna beat her.

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:21 AM
It's not their game that needs fixing, it's their approach to the game.

There's a thread which actually explains exactly how Venus's forehand is flawed. I've bumped it. Read it, please.

!<blocparty>!
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:22 AM
:worship:

I can't believe some of her fans are still in denial over the state of her game. It's like they've forgotten what Venus is capable of... they've lowered their expectations so much. You know, Lindsay hasn't changed her game one iota from when Venus owned her. She's more confident and more willing to fight, and that's it.
Lindsay has changed her game, she is moving so much better, and serving amazing in today's match. Being more confident and willing to fight can make a huge difference, especially to Lindsay Davenport's game.

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:22 AM
:worship:

I can't believe some of her fans are still in denial over the state of her game. It's like they've forgotten what Venus is capable of... they've lowered their expectations so much. You know, Lindsay hasn't changed her game one iota from when Venus owned her. She's more confident and more willing to fight, and that's it.
That's not true at all..Lindsay's first serve has improved and her fitness is at an all time high. Those two things have greatly improved Lindsay's mental approach to the game. I can't believe you think the lindsay of last year could even win 4 tournaments in a row?

!<blocparty>!
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:23 AM
LOL Rocketta - posted more or less the same reply at the same time :p

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:25 AM
LOL Rocketta - posted more or less the same reply at the same time :p
:p

I mean yes Venus needs to improve things about her game but that doesn't mean Lindsay hasn't improved a lot in the last year and it's all based on confidence....which is what Venus' needs.

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:25 AM
That's not true at all..Lindsay's first serve has improved and her fitness is at an all time high. Those two things have greatly improved Lindsay's mental approach to the game. I can't believe you think the lindsay of last year could even win 4 tournaments in a row?

Lindsay's had one of the best serves on the tour for nearly a decade now, and she hasn't been unfit since 1998 :confused:

What I mean is, she hasn't fundamentally altered anything in her game in the same way that Justine altered her forehand or Nastya improved her first serve. She just believes in her game again.

Bloc Party, that was kind of my point.

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:28 AM
Lindsay's had one of the best serves on the tour for nearly a decade now, and she hasn't been unfit since 1998 :confused:

What I mean is, she hasn't fundamentally altered anything in her game in the same way that Justine altered her forehand or Nastya improved her first serve. She just believes in her game again.

Bloc Party, that was kind of my point.
yes but Lindsay of last year wouldn't have held on to that game and won the match....that's what we are saying is the difference between being confident and not. The lindsay of last year couldn't have gotten to all those shots that she did and wouldn't have continued to try like she was today...

Those things have turned her game around. Lindsay was not smoking her serves as consistently as she has been this summer...

!<blocparty>!
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Well, mine was Linds has improved her fitness, A LOT, thats is a big change if you ask me.

You said Lindsay hasnt changed her game one iota.

gweeny
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Maybe it's true. The "aura" is really gone.

I think what I saw from Lindsay was confidence. She never got down (of course her game was so great, there was no reason to get down).

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
I don't think that's what the problem has been for either Williams Sister. I think that these girls are going out there and playing them with full confidence and that is new for both sisters. Before venus was out for 6 months, she knew she could afford to have a lapse in concentration and still beat Lindsay in a third set. Serena knew that she could just phone in the first set, because Jennifer would tighten up midway through the second. That's how good both sisters were. They still are that good it's just they need to get used to maybe playing a 7-5 set in every match. They can no longer afford those lapses in concentration because all these girls now believe that if they get that small opening they can win. It's not their game that needs fixing, it's their approach to the game.

VW#1 I agree with large part of what you are saying.

But Venus forehand and second serve will not win her any more slams titles.
And it all about slams now for Venus.
Looking back at the year Venus has had some really shit luck. She did come back to early for the OZ Open. She just starts to get back in to her grove on the clay is playing like the fav for the french get injuryed. Gets a pretty shit draw at Wimbledon (and a bad umpire) Gets injuryed for the hard court season. get a shit draw at the us open.

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
There's a thread which actually explains exactly how Venus's forehand is flawed. I've bumped it. Read it, please.



I will read it but I doubt it will change much. The people screaming the loudest for venus to change haven't accomplished half of what she has done. Of course that doesn't mean they cannot add commentary or criticism, but as Venus said after her loss at Wimbledon, it's so easy from the sidelines. It's easy to criticize when you're on the sidelines and not feeling the emotions and living in the moment. It's the exact same forehand she had in 2000 and 2001, and people try and act like it wasn't. It's just those commentators were kissing Venus' ass cause she was winning to notice anything real about her game. The minute Serena started to overtake her then suddenly all the "flaws" in her game showed up. As soon as Justine started to give Serena competition, Justine was suddenly a fighter and was the best in the game. Sharapova makes a little noise and suddenly she's the next big thing. Let Sharapova lose a few more matchees and the criticisms will be largely the same. The media for the most part is done with venus so she can't do anything right, the media is still being entertained by Serena that's why she's still looked upon in favorable light. The media will be done with Sharapova and Serena one day too, and as I stated before the criticisms will be largely the same.

BigTennisFan
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Listen to you people. First the complaint was she's not being aggressive. In this match she was aggressive all the way. She made so many errors on her forehand but every time that ball came to that side she smacked it just like it was a backhand. That's the Venus I know. In so many matches venus has allowed her opponents ot beat her, this time she made Lindsay beat her. Lindsay came up with what she needed at the right times that is simply too good. And we saw that fight in Venus again. She lost yes that is disappointing, but there is nothing wrong with her game, that same game, contrary to popular belief got her to number one and 4 grandslams. She doesn't need to change it.
You're right VW, it is the same game. The problem is that the other girls in the WTA are not playing the same game of 2 or 3 years ago. In other words, they have improved, Venus hasn't.

And while I loved the fact that Vee could go out and beat nearly everybody at 75% of her game, those days are over. Now maybe she's fine with that, and if she is, I am too. I'm just saying that if you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting.

Aphrodite
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:31 AM
I think what Venus needs is more play, she is slowly getting better, however it might be a good idea to get another coach, she has gotten all she can get from her parents and crew now, its time to switch it up a bit. With more match play and more wins she will get her confidense up, she played great today and its too bad her draw was like this, Lindsay is about the toughest player to play right now, and vee had her chances and she fought hard in the end.....

but as a fan of hers I dont expect her to do anything, I love her and as a fan I will always love and support her no matter what, she is a great champ, I love you vee, you will be on top in no time.

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:33 AM
Yeah, she's improved her mentality. (I think this is mostly due to two things - one, her imminent retirement which means she's playing with a lot more freedom; two, she senses an opportunity since all of the players she used to run into trouble against, like Venus, have lost ground for various reasons.) She hasn't changed anything in her physical game, though.

I guess this is the difference between her and Venus - from 2001-03, it wasn't Lindsay's game which held her back but her mentality. For Venus now, her mentality is as strong as ever, but her game needs to be reworked like NOW.

(edit - this was to Rocketta)

M2k
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:34 AM
While Lindsay beat Venus, Venus was out there really not picking up on what was going on.
I think Venus was overwhelmed by Lindsay's game(as I thought it would happen). I don't think her forehand is that strong to handle someone like Lindsay when she on top of her game.

Congrats to both for a great match :hearts:

!<blocparty>!
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:36 AM
LOL, I dont know how you fail to see Lindsay's better movement, she is way quicker. :rolleyes:

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:37 AM
The minute Serena started to overtake her then suddenly all the "flaws" in her game showed up.

Duh. Serena was the first to really expose them. Remember when Lindsay started to tee off on Hingis's second serve in '98, which no one had really done consistently before? Once she started, Venus and Serena followed... then Capriati... then Dementieva and Clijsters... then everyone.

In '02, Serena started to pummel Venus's forehand in order to elicit errors. Then Vera did at RG '03. Now the whole tour is doing it.

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Venus and Daveport are at total different parts of there life at the moment. Davenport is happy in the verge of retiremant married everything is going well on and off the court. Venus (not making excues) is at a very low time in her life right. Her sister death the court case over her sisters childern the trial for her sister killer. Plus injurys and the stress of the tour. Man that is a lot to put up with

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:39 AM
[QUOTE=cool bird]

But Venus forehand and second serve will not win her any more slams titles.
And it all about slams now for Venus.



I'm sorry but I'm going to defend my girl :lol: . people said oh my God these girls didn't play junior tennis they will never make it on the tour, the girls showed they could compete and started winning titles. Then it was well they can compete but they don't have the mental fortitude to win slams and they are not consistent enough. They have 10 slams, and 7 other appearences between them. Not to mention at one point Venus won 4 of 8 slams played, got to number one, was the best player in the world regardless of what the rankings said and beat everyone in their path. Serena won 5 grandslams, got a non calendar grand slam, got to number one for a year, and they did all this while doing those outside interests that were distracting them from their tennis. We all know these stats but so many people forget and are willing to write them off after only a year of sub par play where they both have been injured this year alone, and they were out for a very long time. And no matter the state of either Venus or Serena's game, you can best believe those girls still know they have to be on their game to beat them.

gweeny
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:41 AM
I will read it but I doubt it will change much. The people screaming the loudest for venus to change haven't accomplished half of what she has done. Of course that doesn't mean they cannot add commentary or criticism, but as Venus said after her loss at Wimbledon, it's so easy from the sidelines. It's easy to criticize when you're on the sidelines and not feeling the emotions and living in the moment. It's the exact same forehand she had in 2000 and 2001, and people try and act like it wasn't. It's just those commentators were kissing Venus' ass cause she was winning to notice anything real about her game. The minute Serena started to overtake her then suddenly all the "flaws" in her game showed up. As soon as Justine started to give Serena competition, Justine was suddenly a fighter and was the best in the game. Sharapova makes a little noise and suddenly she's the next big thing. Let Sharapova lose a few more matchees and the criticisms will be largely the same. The media for the most part is done with venus so she can't do anything right, the media is still being entertained by Serena that's why she's still looked upon in favorable light. The media will be done with Sharapova and Serena one day too, and as I stated before the criticisms will be largely the same.
May, I ask why are you are so opposed to Venus improving. You may think the commentators are being too critical, or the fans are too critical, but what they want is for Venus to get back to dominating. I don't think Mary Carillo, Tracy Austin are yapping because they want to kick Venus when she is down, rather they want to her to improve.

I don't get why you are so uptight with that.

As fans, I would hate to see Venus career end up like Martina Hingis. Where stubborness and PRIDE did not allow the player to improve, when other players came up to their levels.

Justine Henin is as small as Martina, and she has been able to withstand the big babes. Justine has worked hard to get her slams. As a fan of Venus, I want Venus to utilize all the avenues (new coach, or whatever) to remain a consistent contender in slams.

I honestly think Venus is better than a 4 slam grand slam champion. It wouldn't hurt to try something new, if it helps that's great. If not, then she will just be a great 4 slam winner.

starr
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Oh, for sure. Serena and Venus are very dangerous players. Venus can remain at her current level and be a threatening top ten player, no doubt. As for Serena, it's quite possible she will win this tournament. If she does, it will be vindication for her. Nothing else this year will really matter. I'm sure she knows that.

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:44 AM
Venus and Daveport are at total different parts of there life at the moment. Davenport is happy in the verge of retiremant married everything is going well on and off the court. Venus (not making excues) is at a very low time in her life right. Her sister death the court case over her sisters childern the trial for her sister killer. Plus injurys and the stress of the tour. Man that is a lot to put up with
How can you even say that? You dont even know Venus, or even Davenport for that matter.

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:44 AM
[QUOTE=cool bird]

But Venus forehand and second serve will not win her any more slams titles.
And it all about slams now for Venus.



I'm sorry but I'm going to defend my girl :lol: . people said oh my God these girls didn't play junior tennis they will never make it on the tour, the girls showed they could compete and started winning titles. Then it was well they can compete but they don't have the mental fortitude to win slams and they are not consistent enough. They have 10 slams, and 7 other appearences between them. Not to mention at one point Venus won 4 of 8 slams played, got to number one, was the best player in the world regardless of what the rankings said and beat everyone in their path. Serena won 5 grandslams, got a non calendar grand slam, got to number one for a year, and they did all this while doing those outside interests that were distracting them from their tennis. We all know these stats but so many people forget and are willing to write them off after only a year of sub par play where they both have been injured this year alone, and they were out for a very long time. And no matter the state of either Venus or Serena's game, you can best believe those girls still know they have to be on their game to beat them.

I did not say that Serena would not win any more slams. Maybe im wrong I really hope Venus does prove me wrong sometimes (I know she likes to do that ;) ) But right now I hope the her sight are on getting back to the in to the top 5 where she belongs

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:45 AM
Duh. Serena was the first to really expose them. Remember when Lindsay started to tee off on Hingis's second serve in '98, which no one had really done consistently before? Once she started, Venus and Serena followed... then Capriati... then Dementieva and Clijsters... then everyone.

In '02, Serena started to pummel Venus's forehand in order to elicit errors. Then Vera did at RG '03. Now the whole tour is doing it.


Do you watch must tennis? That has always been venus' MO. On the big points attack the forehand. THat always has been the game plan and always will be. And the two examples you use are very flawed. None are excuses cause Venus still lost but we have heard from her own mouth that it is hard for her to play Serena and there are very intelligent people who believe she has restrained her best against her sister. And in the Zvonereva match, Venus was still feeling the effects of her abdominal strain. Watch her second round match from that year against Evie Dominikovic it was 6-3,4-6,6-2 win for venus and that will tell you all you need to know about how she was feeling about her injury. And since then she has beaten Vera 3 times in a row, twice on clay. Twice this year.

BigTennisFan
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:46 AM
[QUOTE=cool bird]

But Venus forehand and second serve will not win her any more slams titles.
And it all about slams now for Venus.



I'm sorry but I'm going to defend my girl :lol: . people said oh my God these girls didn't play junior tennis they will never make it on the tour, the girls showed they could compete and started winning titles. Then it was well they can compete but they don't have the mental fortitude to win slams and they are not consistent enough. They have 10 slams, and 7 other appearences between them. Not to mention at one point Venus won 4 of 8 slams played, got to number one, was the best player in the world regardless of what the rankings said and beat everyone in their path. Serena won 5 grandslams, got a non calendar grand slam, got to number one for a year, and they did all this while doing those outside interests that were distracting them from their tennis. We all know these stats but so many people forget and are willing to write them off after only a year of sub par play where they both have been injured this year alone, and they were out for a very long time. And no matter the state of either Venus or Serena's game, you can best believe those girls still know they have to be on their game to beat them.
VW, no one is forgetting that. However you seem to think that the rest of the tour has not improved.

You also seem to think that those of us who want Venus to improve her obvious weaknesses in her game are somehow "disloyal" to her. I don't understand fans who don't want their favorite player to improve. :confused:

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:47 AM
How can you even say that? You dont even know Venus, or even Davenport for that matter.

Well becuses it is true. Venus is a going thought a hard time off the court at the moment true. And Davenport has just got married is fit and seems really happy.

No I dont know Venus and Davenport and I did not say that I did. but I would out put money on it that Venus is not been danceing a jig this year after the loss of a loved one.

darrinbaker00
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:48 AM
Listen to you people. First the complaint was she's not being aggressive. In this match she was aggressive all the way. She made so many errors on her forehand but every time that ball came to that side she smacked it just like it was a backhand. That's the Venus I know. In so many matches venus has allowed her opponents ot beat her, this time she made Lindsay beat her. Lindsay came up with what she needed at the right times that is simply too good. And we saw that fight in Venus again. She lost yes that is disappointing, but there is nothing wrong with her game, that same game, contrary to popular belief got her to number one and 4 grandslams. She doesn't need to change it.
1. There's something VERY wrong with Venus' game, and it's her erratic forehand. If she's not going to fix her technique, then she needs to quit going for winners with it and just keep it in play, like Steffi Graf did with her backhand.

2. Venus' game is the same as it was in 2000-01, and that's another problem. While her game has stagnated, everyone else's has improved; even the 28-year-old Davenport has stepped it up.

The right player won this match, but it doesn't take Vic Braden to figure out that Venus' forehand has become a liability, and if she doesn't improve it (or figure out a way to work around it), I don't think she'll win another major. The will to win is obviously still there, but the forehand isn't.

gweeny
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:49 AM
VW, no one is forgetting that. However you seem to think that the rest of the tour has not improved.

You also seem to think that those of us who want Venus to improve her obvious weaknesses in her game are somehow "disloyal" to her. I don't understand fans who don't want their favorite player to improve. :confused:

:worship:

M2k
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:49 AM
:worship:

You know, Lindsay hasn't changed her game one iota from when Venus owned her. She's more confident and more willing to fight, and that's it.... the reason why Lindsay has turn the tables on Venus is her much improved fitness, movement, and her mental strength :cool: things she didn't have when she was losing to Venus.

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Do you watch must tennis? That has always been venus' MO. On the big points attack the forehand. THat always has been the game plan and always will be. And the two examples you use are very flawed. None are excuses cause Venus still lost but we have heard from her own mouth that it is hard for her to play Serena and there are very intelligent people who believe she has restrained her best against her sister. And in the Zvonereva match, Venus was still feeling the effects of her abdominal strain. Watch her second round match from that year against Evie Dominikovic it was 6-3,4-6,6-2 win for venus and that will tell you all you need to know about how she was feeling about her injury. And since then she has beaten Vera 3 times in a row, twice on clay. Twice this year.

Well, here are the facts.

Venus was a near-invincible force on the WTA during 2000-01. The woman who broke that invincibility was Serena. Her tactic of pummeling Venus's forehand was clear to see in their matches. Soon, more people started to gain wins over Venus. In 90% of these cases, their tactic was to hit to her forehand. Even if they only won because she was injured or whatever, there must have been a reason why they picked that tactic, yes?

Don't get me started on Vera, who is another of my faves. If you think this is harsh on Venus, you wouldn't want to know my feelings towards Vera right now.

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:52 AM
May, I ask why are you are so opposed to Venus improving. You may think the commentators are being too critical, or the fans are too critical, but what they want is for Venus to get back to dominating. I don't think Mary Carillo, Tracy Austin are yapping because they want to kick Venus when she is down, rather they want to her to improve.

I don't get why you are so uptight with that.

As fans, I would hate to see Venus career end up like Martina Hingis. Where stubborness and PRIDE did not allow the player to improve, when other players came up to their levels.

Justine Henin is as small as Martina, and she has been able to withstand the big babes. Justine has worked hard to get her slams. As a fan of Venus, I want Venus to utilize all the avenues (new coach, or whatever) to remain a consistent contender in slams.

I honestly think Venus is better than a 4 slam grand slam champion. It wouldn't hurt to try something new, if it helps that's great. If not, then she will just be a great 4 slam winner.




This is the most I have ever posted in one day :lol: . I'm not opposed to her improving I just don't think that iss the issue. I am sure it's hard for her to have confidence in her game when people are screaming change your forehand, change your second serve. To me Capriati is a perfect example of this. people attack her game and say it is one dimensional, but when she's confident it doesn't matter. She's beaten Serena with that same game twice this year. She didn't do anything different than what she normally does but she's believed in it. The last two matches Venus played against Chanda and Lindsay today, I saw that belief in her game. She went for every forehand, every second serve and it was beautiful to see. Sometimes someone is just too good, Lindsay was tonight simple as that. Venus doesn't need to improve her game, she needs a few weeks of perfect health and everything will follow. We know that cause we saw it during most of the clay court season. And really i am arguing so hard because most of Venus' fans aren't just offering criticism, they are doubting her game which i think is unacceptable.

Dana Marcy
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:55 AM
What do I want Venus to do now? The only thing I want her to do is work hard off the court on her conditioning. Get strong to avoid injuries. I agree with Mary Carello that Venus hasn't worked that hard off the court. Once she's got herself into tip top shape then she should start working on the tennis especially that serve and that forehand. Davey played such a clean match today. I want to see Venus reach that level again. I was disappointed in her losing but Venus played well. I saw traces of the old Venus today but Davey just played better all around.

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:55 AM
Well becuses it is true. Venus is a going thought a hard time off the court at the moment true. And Davenport has just got married is fit and seems really happy.

No I dont know Venus and Davenport and I did not say that I did. but I would out put money on it that Venus is not been danceing a jig this year after the loss of a loved one.
assumptions :o

VW#1
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:57 AM
I have to go eat dinner, but I will just say that the most important thing is Venus winning. We disagree on how that is going to happen, but at least we have the same goal that we want her to win. It will follow soon. GO VENUS :worship:

sartrista7
Sep 7th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Indeed... roll on 2005 :D

And for now, udachi Elena and Sveta, and Shinobu too :banana:

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:01 AM
How it is assumptions. Did or did not Venus and Serena lose there sister last year in prob the worst way you could.
Do you think that does not affect Venus on the court watch a tight match with Venus and see how many times she looks up in to the sky. She hardly ever did that before

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:10 AM
How it is assumptions. Did or did not Venus and Serena lose there sister last year in prob the worst way you could.
Do you think that does not affect Venus on the court watch a tight match with Venus and see how many times she looks up in to the sky. She hardly ever did that before
Of course it does, but to say that Venus is at a low point in her life...which I'm saying that she isn't or that she is, just assuming that Lindsay is happier than Venus is like what?

A lot of people thought Hantuchova was anorexic and about a year later we find out it was because of her parents separating. But whatever ;)

Venus Forever
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:14 AM
I'm very happy with Venus' play. She may have lost, but her level has imrpoved dramtically from the beginning of the year.

Her forehand has improved, her second serve has improved, and she's really trying to be aggressive out there, which she lacked in such matches at Wimbledon and Roland Garros.

She just needs to bring it all together MENTALLY now, and she'll back to her old level in no time.

Rocketta
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:15 AM
I'm very happy with Venus' play. She may have lost, but her level has imrpoved dramtically from the beginning of the year.

Her forehand has improved, her second serve has improved, and she's really trying to be aggressive out there, which she lacked in such matches at Wimbledon and Roland Garros.

She just needs to bring it all together MENTALLY now, and she'll back to her old level in no time.
I agree and if she adds more net play....just watch out! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:16 AM
I'm very happy with Venus' play. She may have lost, but her level has imrpoved dramtically from the beginning of the year.

Her forehand has improved, her second serve has improved, and she's really trying to be aggressive out there, which she lacked in such matches at Wimbledon and Roland Garros.

She just needs to bring it all together MENTALLY now, and she'll back to her old level in no time.
its good to see that you've calmed down :p;)

cool bird
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:19 AM
Well I never said anything about Hantuchova last year. Cus that was just all assumption.
But when things are going well off court it reflects in your tennis. And the prof is in the pudding Davenport is playing the tennis of her life right now

Venus Forever
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:37 AM
its good to see that you've calmed down :p;)
It's just been frustrating this past year to see such a great champion struggle so mightly.

Martian Jeza
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:38 AM
To be original : She should be retire

Jasmin
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:38 AM
Doesn't matter anymore if she's not going to get a new coach.

Jericho
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:40 AM
It's just been frustrating this past year to see such a great champion struggle so mightly.
it has...but as long as venus wants it and is trying her best, I'm happy with that,i can't ask for more. :);)

Sportfan
Sep 7th, 2004, 01:52 AM
Venus just needs to not let this loss shake her confidence in her game she was playing very well the match was decided by one break of serve in each set if not for a few untimely errors she may have been able to pull it out. I am hoping Venus just concentrates on the rest of her season remains healthy and bounces back in 2005 at the Slams.